Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 09:42, 20 September 2007

Sockpuppetry between RJ CG and Ilya1166

ProhibitOnions appears to suspect that RJ CG and Ilya1166 are each other's sockpuppets: . While I'm not certain, I have a nagging suspicion -- based on their style differences -- that he's mistaken on this point, and these two are actually distinct people. It would seem the mistake arose from ProhibitOnions' horizon regarding these two users being limited to Bronze Soldier of Tallinn where, indeed, these two have been making rather similar edits. Digwuren 20:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It may be interesting to note, however, that RJ CG edited as 206.186.8.130 until June, and apparently occasionally still does. Digwuren 20:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe this has to be posted to the evidence section, not its talk page. And also you forgot the diff where PO expresses his suspicion of socking. I would like to see that too. --Irpen 05:14, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No I didn't. And as of "evidence section"; I have done my job and expressed my suspicion. If you want it to be supported by solid evidence, why don't you go out and find the evidence yourself? Digwuren 05:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Standard practice is that the accusers present evidence against the accused first. As I'm not one of the accused, I don't see any problems with me providing evidence first. I've visited Tallinn for about a week in 2006, I've yet to visit St Petersburg, I'm told it's the "Venice of the North", so maybe one day. It's really a shame that some Russians feel the need to bully tiny Estonia and this has spilled over into Misplaced Pages. Martintg 07:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

To avoid misunderstandings, I'm pointing out that my suspicion is not accusative by nature. To the contrary!

Of course, if Irpen keeps harassing me over expressing suspicions that might be useful to his side, I'll need to think twice before I'll do such a thing again. Digwuren 12:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Otto ter Haar's involvement

Otto ter Haar is a quite infrequent contributor to Misplaced Pages. His involvement with Estonia-related articles is confined to less than two days, to June 2 and June 3. Yet, after five quite problematic edits to Jüri Uluots, he went on to and . After that, Petri Krohn has left him "friendly notifications" such as and , invariably followed by Otto ter Haar's presence. One might almost think there's an off-Misplaced Pages relationship translating to on-Misplaced Pages unquestioning support at play here. Digwuren 23:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I certainly had the impression that Otto's reaction was way overblown for the alleged offence of having his view on Estonian history called "quaint", but then opening the discussion by branding the article "Estonian nationalistic" POV is not really a civil way to start a discussion either. Odd that such an infrequent editor would choose the Jüri Uluots to edit, hardly a well known person. Perhaps he was fishing for a reaction. I'm kind of reminded of a soccer player taking a dive and writhing in affectated agony to get the referee to send off the opponent player. Martintg 01:22, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Irpen hard at work on the M.V.E.i. front

An interesting exchange has taken place in Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Disruptive user. Digwuren 11:53, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the link. --Irpen 12:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

RJ CG's involvement in Rein Lang

I would put my comment into context. Specifically, RJ CG had (most recently in but also elsewhere) attempted to pretend that the issues were a matter of POV, and that accordingly, WP:NPOV requires Misplaced Pages to be blind about his side's assertions' faults. My comment was intended to remind him, within the narrow confines of an edit summary, that WP:NPOV operates (in structural sense, not in its meaning) differently in matters of fact and in matters of opinion.

As for RJ CG's behaviour towards Deskana, it has a reason. But since Irpen was so unnice towards me the last time I presented something usable to his side of the battlefield (and, in fact, exploited by Ghirlandajo on WP:AN to tar ProhibitOnions already), I do not see any value in expressing it. Digwuren 10:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Status of tarbija24.ee

tarbija24.ee is not an individual publication, but a special "portal" of Postimees. Articles that appear in this domain are usually printed in a separate "informed consumer" section of the paper edition. Furthermore, because postimees.ee and tarbija24.ee are ran off a same (slightly inconsistent) engine, articles published in one of them are available in the other, too -- and sometimes even so linked. (Similarly, when Eesti Ekspress, who normally uses ekspress.ee as its domain, links to articles of Eesti Päevaleht, another newspaper operated by the same concern, normally in domain epl.ee, they use epl.ekspress.ee for the domain.)

Thus, when referring to an article found in tarbija24.ee, the proper attribution is to Postimees. Digwuren 14:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I've changed it. --Deskana (talky) 14:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

In regard to Deskana's evidence

Clerk note: Moved from main evidence page. Cbrown1023 talk 14:50, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Just one point in regard to his evidence, concerning Digwuren's statement: "Facts are facts and opinions are opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts, and even less to presenting them in Misplaced Pages.", which was presented as evidence of incivility. This I believe, is an example of one's cultural background making a difference in interpretation. This statement is apparently derived from a famous quote by the late US Senator Pat Moynihan: "You are entitled to your own opinion. You are not entitled to your own facts", thus it wouldn't be generally considered incivil. Martintg 23:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

While this is clearly cultural, it is not ethnic. Google finds 1920 matches for the complete phrase "you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts", and many more thousands for various paraphrases and commentary. Apparently, its most notable use concerns discussions regarding pseudoscience. Digwuren 02:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed you are correct. I've changed my statement to reflect the proper origin of the phrase. Martintg 04:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

As for confrontational, I find that it's rather late to refrain from confrontation after having been confronted with bogus accusations. Digwuren 13:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It is never too late to refrain from confrontation. DrKiernan 13:52, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

What you are saying means that once you meet a bully your best and only option is leaving the project.--Alexia Death the Grey 18:13, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No. Stooping down to the level of a bully accomplishes nothing, especially on Misplaced Pages. Rise above it, don't fall to the bait. --Deskana (talky) 18:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You're quite mistaken. I was lampooning Irpen, who appears to be unable to present a case to the arbcom, rather than RJ CG. In fact, RJ CG is not significant enough to deserve any taunting. Digwuren 18:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Lampooning anyone isn't acceptable. And please stop replying to people's evidence on the Evidence page. If you want to submit your own evidence arguing your point, then do it. So far you've provided little other than a link to an RFC. --Deskana (talky) 11:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

So far, I haven't had the foggiest idea on what the case will be about. How could I know which evidence is relevant before the scope was clarified? Digwuren 22:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Clerk needed

I see that Digwuren continues creating threaded talk discussions at the Arbcom pages, this time at the evidence page. Could those be cleaned up? --Irpen 02:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

You, sir/madam Irpen, are a hypocrite. But I repeat myself.

Or would you like to offer an alternative explanation for your non-involvement when Ghirlandajo "created threaded talk discussions" in the Workshop page? In order to jog your memory, I would point out that you can't claim you weren't there, because you participated in this very thread! Digwuren 20:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Please remain civil. And please see my comment at Wikipedia_talk:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren/Workshop#Clerk needed. Thank you, Newyorkbrad 19:33, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Statement by Digwuren

Now that I know what the scope will be, I can prepare my case. Please allow until September 20, at least, as the case is not an simple one. Furthermore, I note that although FayssalF's accusations are not explicitly included in the declaration of scope, the ArbCom appears to intend them to be within this case's scope. Digwuren 22:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment on statement by Martintg

"Petri Krohn, Ghirlandajo and his compatriot Paul Pieniezny attempt to paint Estonian editors as bad faith meat puppets"

Nun brichs mie die Klumpen. Nee, dan lieber "mir laust der Affe".

If User:Martintg thinks I am a compatriot of Ghirla, he's got his geography wrong: I am a German Belgian and Ghirla is Russian, as far as I know. Oh, and I also think someone who on his user page claims to have visited both Belgium and Flanders separately, not only has his geography wrong, but may even perhaps not be deemed completely neutral in nationalistic fights like these.

If there is a grammatical error and he thinks Petri and I are compatriots, then I withdraw my first comment. Petri must needs have something German in him. Dieses Blut läßt sich nicht verleugnen.