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Welcome to the discussion board for German-speaking Wikipedians! Feel free to discuss topics and articles of interest in either English or German. As this is the English-speaking Misplaced Pages, discussion in German may be requested for translation for non-German speakers. Happy editing!

Willkommen zum Diskussionsforum der deutschsprachigen Wikipedianer! Hier kannst du auf Deutsch oder auf Englisch über relevante Themen und Artikel diskutieren. Da dies die englische Misplaced Pages ist, kann jederzeit eine Übersetzung der Diskussion ins Englische angefordert werden. Viel Spaß!

Map translation request

Can de:Bild:Münchner abkommen4.png be translated and uploaded to Commons? Our Munich Agreement is missing a map and this seems like a good free candidate.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationality (Entering the minefield)

I am updating some German chemists and now I have a problem with the scientists info box entries. For example:

• Heinrich Limpricht (1827-1909) is Residence German Empire and Nationality Oldenburgian, then German
• Adolf von Baeyer (1835 - 1917) is Residence Germany and Nationality German

The problem of who is which nationality and is a German Empire German a BRD German or is this a discontinuety or what ever, is a question I will not ask!

I had this discussion already with if Fritz Pregl (1869 – 1930) is a Slowenian. This question I would deny because Slowenia was never a independant nation while he lived making him an Austria Hungaryan and later a State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbsan and later Kingdom of Yugoslavian. But this should be done by people who whant to fight about it. I will encounter the Problem with Poland and Elsaß early enough.

I only want a hint which of the two methods is prefered! --Stone 15:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

German nationality

Until 1913 there was no German nationality in a legal sense, only the nationality of one of the souverain German states. In 1913 the Reichstag passed the Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (RuStG), which was amended several times later on. It did not introduce a direct German nationality, but an indirect one. So a citizen of the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg would have the Hamburg nationality and a Hamburg passport, which made him indirectly a citizen of the German Reich (1913-1934). This was changed by the Nazi-goverment through the 1934 amendment of the RuStG, then creating a direct German nationality for all those belonging to the "Reich" as defined by the amended RuStG. The West-German Grundgesetz from 1949 has a definition for German persons. Its "German in the sense of the Grundgesetz" is wider than the "German nationality" under the RuStG (kept until 1999).--Kresspahl 16:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Perfect for a lawyer but it does not help me with my question! Nationality is not defined by laws or birth only but also by heritage, making everything complicated. Staatsangehörigkeit and Nationalität I like more for these kind of definitions!

But still I need an answer!--Stone 16:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I think in cases like these, using "German", while technically inaccurate, is what readers expect. The flags are impossible to get right, but 99%+ of biographies should not have images of flags anyway (only biographies of flag designers etc. benefit from adding flag images). Kusma (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Flags are pointless in most bios. Maybe they are useful for politicians and soldiers, to illustrate which state(s) or army(s) they represented (sometimes changing).-- Matthead      O       13:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages really needs better guidelines regarding nationality. Due to changing borders, many famous Germans/Austrians/Prussians are claimed by present countries as "he lived here, so he's one of ours". See Gregor Mendel for a current ongoing editwar/debate.-- Matthead      O       13:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Categories

A prior discussion about categorization of Germans/German-speakers has got me thinking. Using the previously created Category:German natives of East Prussia and Category:German natives of Silesia as examples, I had created additional categories, such as Category:German natives of West Prussia (for more, see Category:German people by state, which is currently missing Bremen). However, I am doubting that this is the best way to approach the issue. It makes sense to categorize people according to the specific principality/state when they were born, but the current "German natives of" scheme is problematic with some territories.

Some of the current categories can be confusing on ethnic grounds, which are often subjective. When should we differentiate between a "German from Alsace" and an "Alsatian"? Bohemia, Moravia, and Austrian Silesia had substantial German-speaking populations, but were never part of "Germany". How/should we categorize such individuals? Should they be merged into Category:Sudeten Germans? Or should that latter category only refer to the late 19th/20th century concept of Sudeten Germans, or strictly to the Nazi era?

"East Prussia" is another problematic case. It was only formally created as a province of Prussia in 1773, but the phrase has frequently been used to refer to the territory of the Duchy of Prussia (1525-1701) and sometimes earlier. Should German natives of East Prussia be restricted to post-1773? King Frederick I of Prussia was born in Königsberg while it was part of Ducal Prussia; should Category:People from the Duchy of Prussia be created? What about people born in East Prussia between 1701 (elevation of the duchy to the Kingdom of Prussia) and 1773 (creation of Province of East Prussia)? What about when East Prussia was merged with West Prussia into the Province of Prussia (1824-1878)?

A possible solution is to do away with the ethnic classification of "German natives of" and instead categorize solely on citizenship. To avoid cluttering up the root German people by state category, People from former German states could be created as a subcategory. For example, the articles in German natives of Silesia could be split into People from the Province of Silesia, People from the Province of Lower Silesia, and People from the Province of Upper Silesia, based on when/where they were born. The controversial Jan Dzierzon (is he German, Polish, or Silesian?) would be included within People from the Province of Silesia, a subcategory of Category:People from Prussia, itself a subcategory of People from former German states. Of course, that wouldn't help with pre-1740 (First Silesian War) articles- should they be included within a People from Austrian Silesia category? "German" Alsatians could be restricted to People from Alsace-Lorraine, referring solely to the territory/era of the German Empire.

Since Prussian history can be complicated at times, categories such as People from Royal Prussia and People from the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights or People from the Ordensstaat could be created.

Thoughts/suggestions/alternatives? Olessi 17:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Category:German natives of Bohemia, an alternative would be to create Category:German Bohemians (i.e. Bohemians of German ethnicity). Olessi 17:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The current Category:German natives of Moravia could be troublesome, as Category:German Moravians would refer to both Moravians of German ethnicity or to members of the Moravian Church (often used in American publications). Perhaps this one should be merged into the aforementioned German Bohemians category. Olessi 17:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Because "East Prussia" is widely used in English to refer to both the Duchy of Prussia and the Province of East Prussia, I do not see a significant problem with including residents of both in a single category. Plus, this avoids the questionable 1701-1773 time period. However, Category:People from East Prussia is my preferred title. Olessi 17:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Your idea to drop the nationality and instead simply concentrate on just the regions (eg. People from the Province of Lower Silesia) is IMO the way to go. It might not solve all problems but it is a good start. Nationality could then be introduced as subcategories, if necessary. - 52 Pickup 18:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users claiming they did not exist as political entities at the time . -- Matthead      O       05:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Space Cadet (talk · contribs) is continuing his removal of Category:German natives of East Prussia, from about two dozen bios today. -- Matthead      O       20:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm just removing people who got added to the category by mistake, because they where born when East Prussia did not exist. Thank You. Space Cadet 20:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Trying to limit the meaning of East Prussia to the two policital subdivisions of Prussia, or claiming that some were added by mistake, is an interesting exercise in Wikilawyering. East Prussia, as a historical region, covers about 500 years, also the times of the Monastic state, the Duchy, and the Province of the mid-19th century. Only Category:German natives of West Prussia is an alternative if more appropriate - deletion is not. In Category:German people by state, people are listed under present German states even when born centuries before these were formed, like Israhel van Meckenem. Thank you for quitting your destructive behaviour towards a useful category for undisputedly German speaking persons now. -- Matthead      O       21:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not being disruptive, I'm just correcting mistakes. East Prussia was an administative region (with changing borders) of the Kingdom of Prussia, later of Germany. Why do you feel it's so important to promote a popular stereotype over actual truth? Only because the mistake was spotted by a Pole? Stop your Polononphobic games now! Space Cadet 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't you shout, there is no need for it. And ain't be silly.--Kresspahl 22:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and when I got shouted at by your homeboy Matthead then it was OK, right? Also, don't call me names or I'll report you! Space Cadet 22:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"Polononphobic" is - as far as I can judge - a senseless term in English, the appropiate term would be something like "Polophobic", but I think that this is not the appropiate level for a serious discussion about historical questions (and their implications) at Misplaced Pages. WWII is over now for more than 60 years, so maybe we can let emotions out of this and discuss on the basis of facts.

And a good advise to our polish friend: At Misplaced Pages, bringing good (proven) arguments is always better than using bad words, breaking the 3R-rule and getting blocked for this. In the long run, aggresive stile and dubious edits doen't succeed, its the facts and their exhibition in a serious discussion that count. -- Rfortner 23:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Polonia in Latin is Poland, therefore Polonophobia. And I don't recall Kresspahl or Matthead "bringing good (proven) arguments" but they are your homies so that's OK. East Prussia existed 1772 - 1829, 1878 - 1918 in one set of borders, then 1918 -1938 in another set, then finally for seven years 1938 - 1944 it included Memelland again. Calling people who were born outside those timeframes "German Natives of East Prussia" is like calling everybody born in Berlin a native of German Democratic Republic. Space Cadet 00:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

SpaceCadet, I think you are misguided, nobody here is my "homie" (whatever you mean with this term), I am disgusted by any kind of nationalism, irrepective if it is German or Polish nationalism (and maybe you know, that also we Austrians had to suffer from German nationalism). I just reminded you, that in a controversy debate proven arguments and a consens-willing-attitude are the best way to convince people, while any kind of "aggressive" stile in a dicussion will strongly minimize your standing. About the "phobie": At least an "n" was too much in your posting ;-) -- Rfortner 09:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was misguided. Or rather jealous of how Germans can always stick together and back each other up. I wish it was true for my people. But here in the States, where I live, the worst enemy of a Pole is not German, Russian or Jewish but another Pole. Polonophobia is really the way it is spelled. Really. Happy editing, your friend Space Cadet 15:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but you wrote "Polononphobic", so there was at least one "n" to much ;-) ... By the way: I am not German, I am Austrian. And telling an Austrian that he is German is normaly not very nice, as we struggled long enough to get independent (So to be clear: We are "german-speaking" but we are not "Germans"). And I am not so sure if - for example - Matthead and I would always agree about every part of our common history, but at least we will discuss it in an open discussion here at Misplaced Pages. Therefore I am a little bit scared when you talk about "enemies", irrespective of their nationality, as Misplaced Pages is an international project where we all should work to find a common sense, instead of starting "combats" (which one normally does with enemies). -- Rfortner 15:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand. And when I said "enemies" I only meant people not being very nice towards each other. I am not a nationalist, either. Space Cadet 16:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

This edit of yours is only one example of your ongoing campaign of deleting Category:German natives of East Prussia from biographies of persons undisputedly being born in the historic region East Prussia, the main part of Prussia (region), where Germans have a 500+ year history. Your claim the category applies only to the periods 1773-1829 and 1878-1945 in which the Province of East Prussia existed as a separate province, but not for 1829 - 1878 when it was merged to Province of Prussia, is petty-minded at best. You have claimed you will definitely try to learn from this experience during the recent Community sanction noticeboard: Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topics, yet all you do is continue in even worse manner. Unless there is a more appropriate category for that area in Category:German people by state, you shall not vandalise biographies by removing the geograpical classification for any German being born there before 1946.-- Matthead      O       02:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

What worse manner? I'm helping you guys to correct a mistake that occurred probably by accident. Why do you bring up the Sanction Noticeboard, where I was wrongfully accused of stuff by your buddy Sciurinæ? What does it have to do with anything? East Prussia was not a "historical region" but an administrative unit that lasted only in timeframes mentioned above. Now I am not questioning that those people whose biographies contain mistakes are German. Also I'm not removing those who actually were born in East Prussia. But East Prussia was NOT a historical region. Sorry. Space Cadet 07:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides, you can create those missing categories yourself. Don't be lazy. Come on: German natives of Province of Prussia, German natives of Ducal Prussia, German natives of the Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights - and you're done! This last one would probably be even empty, because I don't remember anybody from there. Happy editing and I mean it! Space Cadet 07:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned when I started this discussion, I don't support classifying these biographies in terms of location by ethnicity, preferring instead sorting by citizenship regardless of ethnicity. The current categories are a mixture of both - shouldn't there be a Category:People from East Prussia before there is a Category:German natives of East Prussia? Plus, the preferred category naming style is "People from", not "Natives of".

Regarding Category:German natives of Silesia, for instance, is this referring to German citizens who lived in the Province of Silesia (or other Silesian entities), or ethnically German Silesians? As an example, Joseph Maria Olbrich was a German-speaker who grew up in Troppau, but he was not a citizen of Germany. I would thus recommend a Category:People from Austrian Silesia for such individuals. Regarding Category:German natives of Silesia, I would suggest dividing that into Category:German Silesians or Category:Silesian Germans, a subcategory of Category:German people by ethnic or national origin, and also place people into Category:People from the Province of Silesia (or other relevant Silesian entities). Olessi 22:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Categories can always be put in question. Now for the ethnic German East Prussians, a category makes sense to me. There were indeed a peripheric part of the German nation/people/ethnic groups (cf. Category:Baltic Germans). And I don't see any logic in the nonsensical argument that East Prussia somehow disappeared in the 19th century, only because it was for a time part of a united province with West Prussia. What East Prussia historically was, when it came into existence etc., is to be discussed here: East Prussia. PS: This is all history now. Poles and Germans are friendly nations, not enemies. And forget about the Lunatic Fringe! --DaQuirin 20:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course Poles and Germans are best friends, but then why are you calling my edits nationalistic? Space Cadet 21:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Mistranslated source

Hi there. I'm working on the article on Emma Watson, and one of the key sources we're working with is an interview with the German press. Someone's done enough of a translation to permit us including some references, but the translation is not really perfect. The article is pushing featured article candidacy so we'd really like someone fluent in German to have a look at the source, find out where the quote is coming from, check the references are valid, and see if they can give us a better translation. If anyone is interested in helping, please have a look at the details on the talk page. Many thanks in advance. Happy-melon 18:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)