Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:30, 28 September 2007

Denial of Soviet occupation

Reason: already deleted (as Soviet occupation denialism). This article is a re-creation of a recently deleted (see discussion) POV fork, created by a number of closely associated accounts (Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Digwuren, Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/DLX, Martintg, Alexia Death), based in Estonia, representing extreme nationalist point of view. We already have numerous relevant articles and POV forks Occupation of Baltic states, Soviet occupations (created by the same user), Soviet occupations of Latvia, Soviet occupation of Estonia and many others, covering the question. The accounts created a mob and promoted the article to GA shortly (several hours) after creation (there was a mutual personal agreement to promote each other's POV articles between reviewers ), altough the decision was quickly revised. I was unable to put deletion template into the article as it is now blocked due to permanent edit-war. The creator of the article has been recently unblocked from a two-week block only to give him ability to participate in an arbcom case opened against him (see blocklog:). He also already has been blocked for re-creation of deleted articles. Besides i want to note that the very name of the article is inherently POV as it recalls associations with Holocaust denial.--Dojarca 08:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Note my name has been added some time after this case opened. I am based in Australia and I did not create this article. Martintg 05:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I have some issues some of the inaccuracies of the nomination

• It is a re-creation of a recently deleted article. Apparently there are significant differences between the this and the deleted article. No policy against creating improved articles that are sunstantially different to the deleted article.
• created by a number of closely associated accounts based in Estonia. Actually only one individual created this article
• The accounts created a mob and promoted the article to GA. Only a single person handled the GA process, the creator. Martintg 16:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Note: see also Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment#Denial of Soviet occupation. Also, several administrators have not seen fit to dominate this article to AfD. -- Sander Säde 10:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. Digwuren was unblocked not because "only to give him ability to participate in an arbcom case opened against him". Instead he was unblocked because "I've unblocked you in favor of protecting the article, since the edit warring is more extensive among others than I realized, and so that you can keep participating in the ArbCom case", see . Please stop your attempts to paint all Estonian users as some kind of nationalist trolls and follow WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA guidelines (note that there are no edits in the article by me). -- Sander Säde 11:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete - OR, POV and since it's already supposed to have been deleted, that'll have to be a delete from me... Spawn Man 08:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You should read the article, it is a total rewrite, not "re-creation" -- Sander Säde 10:13, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I did read the article, hence the OR & POV issues, but considering that the last article was deleted, I'm going on the nom's word in regard to the recreation of text. OR & POV are still sufficiant enough for me to oppose. Spawn Man 11:05, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. As nominator very well knows, it is a total rewrite where issues described in previous AfD are addressed. Article is very well sourced, and follows WP:NPOV guideline by also describing contradicting viewpoints. Article contains no original research, but is annoying to a well-known group of Soviet supporters, who try to get this article deleted no matter what, only reason being WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Validity of the topic cannot be questioned, as shown by multitude of sources. Also, nominator should be reported for gross personal attacks, knowingly promoting lies and ethnical hatred. -- Sander Säde 10:13, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  "Denial of Soviet occupation is the revisionist concept..." - is it NPOV? --Dojarca 10:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Care to show, which part of the WP:NPOV guideline it breaks? There is no "WP:IDONTLIKEIT" clause there. -- Sander Säde 10:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It presents opinion as a fact.--Dojarca 10:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the article attempts to present the fact of the opinion, which is perfectly acceptable. Martintg 03:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Dojarca there SS. Besides, I really don't think that arguing we're all Pro-Soviet is a legitimate argument do you? If no one else, I have given rationale as to why the article should be deleted and I didn't even comment on the last AfD. You could say that I was an unbiased party before this AfD. Spawn Man 11:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

See - version that was accepted as GA. In my opinion it is quite a lot better, then the current protected version. -- Sander Säde 11:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I still would have voted delete then too as POV. If the article is a complete rewrite, then how come this POV sentence still exists in the current article as it did in the old version? "Soviet Union was a strongly ideology-based regime with peculiar ideas..." Peculiar etc? "As of 2007, Russia is the only country in Europe to maintain this denial..." The article keeps on barraging the reader with anti-Soviet text; that is why it's POV. It needs to be neutral. C'mon guys, I thought the Cold War finished ages ago! Spawn Man 11:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"As of 2007, Russia is the only country in Europe to maintain this denial..." is both sourced and fact, how is it not neutral? -- Sander Säde 11:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The only source for that is a phrase by Estonian nationalist politician Tunne Kelam. Is it reliable source for you?--Dojarca 11:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a non-Russian source that either calls Tunne Kelam "nationalist politician" or tells that there is another country in Europe, that denies occupation (very probably Belorussia does, as it is under dictatorship as well)? -- Sander Säde 12:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The statement is unsourced and you indirectly accept it by asking for a non-Russian source. An Estonian politician cannot be taken as neutral by the same rationale: he is an involved party here and has an inherent conflict of interest. --Yury Petrachenko 12:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay guys, stop. Sander Säde, you're being way too argumentative in regard to this AfD; calling us Soviet lovers, replying to everything, making obviously inflammatory remarks when a user gives their rationale etc etc. Please stop. It's an article on an online encyclopedia! Who cares? If you're going to get all wrapped up about it, I'd suggest everyone else stops replying to Sander, and you Sander, should occupy your time on Misplaced Pages with another endevour. I'm sure there's another article out there you'd rather be editing or which could need your help? Anyway, guys, just cool it. Regards, Spawn Man 12:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Simply because I don't think there's enough here to make a separate article. The title says "Denial of Soviet occupation" yet very little in the article focuses on the denial of the Soviet invasion(s) and rule in the Baltic States (which seems to be the chief concern here). As the nominator says "We already have relevant articles Occupation of Baltic states, Soviet occupation of Latvia, Soviet occupation of Estonia and many others, covering the question". Any valuable material should be moved to the appropriate pages. --Folantin 10:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as a synthesized original research article. Looking through the related articles it clearly is a POV fork. - Peripitus (Talk) 11:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete with fire, this screams POV-fork and original synthesis. I've deleted this rubbish once and it's tedious to have to do so again. Any material of any repute can be used elsewhere. Moreschi 12:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Question, If it is a POV fork, what's the alternative view? I thought NPOV was about representing all significant viewpoints, so presumably there is some other views that is not expressed in this article if it is considered POV.Martintg 13:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as POV, trolling, OR and violating just about every policy WP has. Recreation of deleted content too btw. -- Grafikm 13:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete this is a WP:POVFORK and re-creation of a deleted article (which already warrants it for speedying). - Francis Tyers · 13:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• This article has been totally re-written, not a simple re-creation. I draw your attention to Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." Martintg 23:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep Because denial of Soviet occupation is a notable issue in politics, in Latvia at least. Maybe the issue wasn't that notable when the previous article was deleted, but it became notable just days after that, as it was one of the main issues in Latvian presidental election debate, after it was discovered that one of the candidates had denied occupation, in fact it was the pretext why he wasn't elected. I saw the previous article - it was different. I see issues of POV - the article favours the view that occupations did take place, thus all oppinions are not taken into account - but these could be worked with ---- Xil...sist! 13:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Comment We already have numerous articles of the topic. This can well be described in Occupation of Latvia. Existance of this article is a source for permanent edit war.--Dojarca 17:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't think so - what we have is nummerous articles on occupations of this and occupations of that - those are historical events. Denial of Soviet occupation in turn is a modern concept in politics. This isn't about whether there was or was not any occupation, but about the fact that there is an argument in which one side denies that there was occupation. The article is POVish (starting with "revisionist" and "echoed" in the lead) and has redundant sections (namely how the hell is "Economic background" connected with this ?), it should be worked with, but I think that the concept is notable enough to have it. ---- Xil...sist! 18:47, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not a "modern concept" but one of the mainstram points of view all after the WWII.--Dojarca 18:57, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

"Modern" in sence still important, and if it exists for 60 years as you imply surely that is another proof that it is important and could be improved beyond POV and OR -- Xil...sist! 20:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep: if there are problems with POV, it is not criteria for deletion. SpeedKing1980 14:12, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • POV problems that cannot be solved are criteria for deletion. Moreschi 18:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

    The criteria for deletion here is not POV issues but that the article is a POV fork. Read the prevous deletion discusson please.--Dojarca 18:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• The article is not a POV fork, see Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#What_content/POV forking is not. Martintg 23:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete, POV fork, recreation of deleted content, synthesis. Strongly tempted to speedy it. Neil ム 15:03, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I draw your attention to Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." Martintg 23:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I draw your attention to Misplaced Pages:Original research. The article is not legitimately created - it is a bunch of POV and dubiously phrased garbage and synthesis (my favourite is the creation of a specious Wikiquote page to lend this rubbish some legitimacy). But it will no doubt get kept, as I see the hordes of meatpuppets have now arrived. Neil ム 08:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• That is a rather uncivil comment Neil, do you regularly call those who don't agree with your viewpoint "meatpuppets"? Some people tell me that your speedy delete of Estophilia was an abuse of admin privileges, is that true? Martintg 09:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Not if you know what "abuse of admin privileges" actually means. Neil ム 11:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• About the Wikiquote thing, it's not because I think the article's good (I delisted it from GA), it's because there was an entire section of quotes. We should, in that case, put that content, on Wikiquote, just like the bible verse John 3's content is on Wikisource. Will 15:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• keep per Xil, as a main issue in Latvian Presidential elections, noteworthy though this will need cleanup. Chris 16:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Comment I would like to note that the current name of the article makes associations with Holocaust denial, so it is essentially POV as existance of Holocaust is a non-controversial concept while occupatin of the Baltics is.--Dojarca 17:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• The occupation of the Baltics is not a controversial subject in academic literature, the controversy only exists within some sections of the Misplaced Pages community. Martintg 23:41, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• keep, many Western news outlets reported on Russias policy of denial of Soviet occupation and some anaylses have been done by some think tanks, so it is definitely notable. POV issues are not a criteria for deletion either. Martintg 16:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep Numerous sources presented exclude OR. POV is not a criteria for deletion, not that I'm saying its a valid concern. The previous article was deleted as NEOLOGISM, this article is free of that fault, thus no grounds for deletion.--Alexia Death the Grey 17:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  The prevous article was deleted as POV fork. It is clearly visible from the discussion page. This article is nothing less POV fork than the prevous one.--Dojarca 18:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Then do answer, POV fork of what? --Alexia Death the Grey 04:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Occupation of Baltic states. Neil ム 11:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• How so? What is the viewpoint of this article and how does it differ from the other one? Martintg 11:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Funny how revisionist concept almost never fails to equate to troublesome Misplaced Pages article. Delete per Grafikm. ~ Riana ⁂ 18:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. Well referenced. IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument for deletion.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:21, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

  Being well-referenced is not a valid argument for retention. Neil ム 15:17, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Far too POV for inclusion. Definitely not neutral. Captain panda 20:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• I draw your attention to Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." Martintg 23:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• That quote you have states that the article must have the point of view subject expressed neutrally and that it should cross-reference other articles with different points of view. The neutrality in that article is not very high and the articles linked to with other points of view have disputed neutrality tags on them. Captain panda 02:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Your point is well taken, but I don't believe lack of neutrality is sufficient ground for deletion. What improvements do you suggest to increase the level of neutrality? Note that all a tag indicates is that there is no concensus among editors that an article is neutral, nothing more, it only takes one dissenting editor to tag an article. No doubt creationist would view the article Evolution and not neutral, and vice versa and we would have endless tag wars as a result. That is why Misplaced Pages has this principle I quoted above. Martintg 02:41, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• I would like to point out that just because an article covers a controversial topic does not necessarily mean that it lacks neutrality. For example, the articles that you gave me, Evolution and Creationism, do not have neutrality tags. As for improvements to help the neutrality, I would first suggest confirming or removing the many disputed references in the article. Also, various statements such as "The Soviet regime, in a classic way of totalitarianism", should be rephrased. In addition, though it only takes one editor to add such a tag, it only takes one to remove it if it foolishly placed. The tag has to have some merit or it would have been removed quite some time ago. Captain panda 03:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for the feed back, I'll chase up those issues you mentioned. A number of editors below like Irpen, believes denial of Soviet occupation is a valid topic, and I believe the article can be improved further, so under those circumstances you would keep? Martintg 03:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Possibly. If the article is improved like I suggested, I would still be not sure if it is a topic that should be included, but I would be open for it to be kept as it wouldn't cause any problems. For now, I am still going to say Delete. Captain panda 20:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletions. — _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  22:06, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - a valid topic. There was a lot of media frenzy in May of 2005 as Russia celebrated 50th anniversary of WWII end. There are plenty of sources - BBC, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, etc. - to back up the claim. In no way it is original research. Renata 23:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
  • A valid topic indeed. However, this by itself is not the justification for an article to be kept. An imaginary article on valid topic titled, say, Latvian Academy of Art must also contain valid content to be kept. If one feels this red link with "poop" or "I love Latvian art", and no one restarts the garbage from scratch before AfD closure, the junk gets deleted no matter how valid the topic is.
  • The question one must ask is whether the article in the current state has a basis for improvement or is it a total junk and the potential article on such valid topic would have to be rewritten from scratch. The article's claimed wide scope is not supported by the sources it uses. The article's statements disagree with the sources allegedly used and none of this content can be reused.
  • AfD process is not based on the validity of the topic. It is about the validity of the article in its current form and, if it is totally out of whack (like this one) whether it is improvable as is or whether it would have to be rewritten, like in this case. --Irpen 01:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

To compare a serious article to a poop is a really interesting way of conversation. Congratulations Tymek 02:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not make such comparison. I merely stated that the validity of the topic is not enough reason to keep. The validity of the article as of the time of the AfD is needed. --Irpen 02:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

What's the difference between a topic and an article? If the topic of the denial of Soviet occupation is valid as you say, then why wouldn't the article be ammenable to improvement? Martintg 03:00, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

If the valid article on a valid topic would have to be written from scratch and the current state of it is useless for the future article, as I believe it is, it cannot be called "amenable to improvement". The topic is "amenable to coverage" is not the same as the article in the form as of AfD being usable for such coverage. I am not suggesting to salt the Earth and prevent the article's recreation. I am merely commenting on the article we have, not the encyclopedic potential of the topic. If you are willing to completely rewrite it and replace the nonsense whose citations do not even support it with a short but valid stub, I would change my vote to keep. I do not oppose the very existence of the article under this title. I am only commenting on the article in its current shape and form. When my substub on a totally valid topic was deleted based on this discussion I did not have a problem with that. The main qualm of those who voted delete was not lack of the subject's validity, but lack of the content's validity and usefulness at the time of AfD. If anyone ever rewrites that redirect into a valid article, I am sure it would survive. Same here. I call for the deletion of the useless junk in its current form and shape only. I do not call for the protection of the redlink from recreation unless it becomes abusive. This is only a second recreation. So, it is too early to Salt the Earth. --Irpen 03:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Captain panda has already offered some suggestions for improvement and your inline tags you added today are a great help too. Thanks. Martintg 03:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep - I have never seen any Nazi/German sources denying their occupation of the Netherlands, Denmark and other countries. Yet Soviet/Russian sources and politicians consistently denying their occupation of the Baltic States are numerous and as such should be mentioned. This article is very-well referenced and it touches a very important yet neglected subject Tymek 00:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Renata, Tymek, and the others. CRGreathouse (t | c) 01:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. A very real and noteworthy topic, which deserves to be presented encyclopedically. The admitted issues with POV, style and perhaps inappropriate syntheses of sources are no reason to delete an article, rather to improve it. The fact that a handful of editors apparently prefer that the entire issue not be mentioned at all is hardly a valid rationale for outright deletion. K. Lásztocska 04:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Emphatic keep - this is a well-referenced, reasonably neutral article on a very valid topic. Can it be improved? Sure. But that's not reason to delete - indeed the main "delete" rationale appears to be an ill-concealed wish to suppress discussion of Communist atrocities. Let's not succumb to this desire. Biruitorul 04:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep. The denial of Soviet occupations and on-going history falsification in Russia is a topic that has been frequently reported in the media in many countries (Sweden, UK, Finland, Poland, Estonia come to mind). This is a very real phenomenon and one that is causing more and more concern, not unlike Holocaust denial. The effort to have this article removed looks very much like a part of the campaign to deny and falsify the history of the USSR. JdeJ 08:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Keep per JdeJ. I would also like to note that someone already used this argument here: "Occupation denial can't exist because there was no occupation". :) One of the reasons why Estonia didn't criminalize holocaust denial is the fact that public demanded criminalization of occupation denial in the same run. That, in turn, would have caused panic in russia again. The problem is definitely notable and also present in Misplaced Pages editors. Suva Чего? 08:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per my nomination of the predecessor article. The non-notable historical construct has obvious neo-Nazi connotations and Holocaust denial issues. The supposed "denial" of a controversial and self-contradictory concept, known either as liberation of Eastern Europe from the Nazis or "Soviet occupation", is overtly patterned upon and conflated with Holocaust denial (see the posts above), ergo, the Soviet liberation of Eastern Europe is put on the same footing as the Holocaust. The unique nature of the Holocaust is thereby diluted to make room for comparisons with what the current governments (the Kasczynski tandem, Rein Lang, etc) deem pertinent and appropriate for promoting their political ends. As a result, war criminals (such as Ain-Ervin Mere) end up by being absolved of gassing prisoners in the concentration camps, the extermination of the entire Jewish population of Estonia, etc, and recast as "freedom fighters". This is pretty disgusting, as is the penchant of folks to opine along pre-established ethnic lines, something which brings the entire AfD process into disrepute. --Ghirla 16:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

• Yawn. Trying to derail this debate with your transparent provocations? Martintg 10:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Martin, another incivil remark - and I will ask an administrator to interfere. --Ghirla 10:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Ghirla, I apologize for my bluntness, but your accusations of "neo-Nazi connotations and Holocaust denial issues" are absurd, outrageous, slanderous and completely baseless. Not only is it a classic proof of Godwin's Law, but it is an obvious attempt to discredit all your opponents in this debate by insinuating that they are Nazis or neo-fascists, an extremely serious allegation which should not be tolerated under any circumstances. K. Lásztocska 11:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete Just a POV fork of Occupation of Baltic states with false generalization.Anonimu 10:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Inheritantly POV title, I would vote the same way for the Denial of minorities right violation in Baltic state or Denial of Estonian-Nazi connections, etc. Alex Bakharev 10:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Granted. The loaded term "denial" has been selected by authors on purpose to evoke associations with the Holocaust denial (it's the same guys who arranged the deletion of Category:Holocaust in Estonia). This reminds me of the Misplaced Pages:Allegations of allegations of apartheid apartheid saga. What's next, Denial of Soviet occupation denial? --Ghirla 10:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Strictly speaking the Allegation saga would be corresponded to the Allegations of Soviet occupation I could live with that title, though still find the WP:POVFORK to be unnecessary. Alex Bakharev 10:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  That's my point. People chose to name it "denial" rather than "allegations" with a view toward inflaming the discussion. I should also point out, just as a rifle shot in passing, that the alleged "anti-Estonian clique" in Misplaced Pages resisted the urge to start Allegations of Estonian apartheid, although these particular allegations are so notable that Russia's pro-Western Foreign Minister Andrey Kozyrev denounced Estonia's citizenship law as "quiet apartheid" and "ethnic cleansing in white gloves" more than ten years ago. This sheds some light on who insists on escalating the dispute and who seeks to defuse it. --Ghirla 10:49, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Actually, there is already an article Allegations of apartheid, so presumably you could add a section there if you are so inclined. Martintg 12:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

* Keep Valid topic as both Renata and Irpen have agreed. Martintg 10:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Duplicate "keep" comment. Neil ム 11:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Correct me if I am wrong, but I've scanned up and down this page and I don't see where this duplicate keep comment is. Martintg 11:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Huh. --Ghirla 11:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks, the page is getting quite dense it was difficult to spot. Martintg 11:47, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Note: Deletion is announced on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Latvia by User:Xil, I have added announcements on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Estonia and P:RUS/NEW Alex Bakharev 10:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Unencyclopedic and POV fork, the result of a way-too-extended exercise about the Soviet occupations. The article, which is basically an essay, has no particular purpose, and the phenomenon seems to have been coined by the article's authors. One could write an article about denials of anything and everything, on the logic of "we have x, therefore we could have anti-x", but, if any of the info is any way salvageable, it belongs in other articles. Dahn 12:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Note: I have placed notifications of this discussion on Misplaced Pages:Hungarian Wikipedians' notice board, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Eastern Europe, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Czech Republic and Misplaced Pages:Romanian Wikipedians' notice board. K. Lásztocska 12:05, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  I view this spam-campaign as a transparent attempt to skew discussion in a certain direction. Neither Hungary nor Romania is mentioned in the article, for crying out loud. --Ghirla 12:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Given the fact that Hungary and Romania were also subject to Soviet occupation, and these occupations are also termed "liberation" from time to time, there is nothing objectionable about leaving notes on these noticeboards. As to "an attempt to skew discussion", just see my recommendation below – I came via the Hungarian noticeboard. Striking or removing this comment would be quite in order. KissL 14:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  Oh, settle down. It's already mentioned, as stated directly above me, on WikiProject Latvia and on the Russian noticeboard, I was only trying to get more people to come and comment. Unfortunately, I found no Communist Wikipedians' notice board, else I would have posted there as well. K. Lásztocska 12:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

  "Coined by the article's author"? I've read two long articles about it in major newspapers just this week, accusing Russia of "gloryfying" its WWII-history and to treat it in a very biased way. A spokesperson for the Russian ministry of Education said that the aim of teaching history in Russia should be to make young Russians worshipd and honour their country, so nothing that is critical to Russia should be thaught in Russian schools. Based on many comments here, that policy is working very well. I suggest many people here actually believe that the USSR was right. That's the whole reason for having articles such as these. Hitler and Stalin were both about equally bad, both of them had millions murdered in camps, both of them started wars, occupied and enslavec other countries. The main different is that Germany has not tried to deny this. Russia is still doing it. JdeJ 12:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It is still not a phenomenon. It is merely a note. A phenomenon is not "I read in newspapers that Russia denied the occupation", it is "I have several scholarly books that discuss Russia's denial of the occupation as a phenomenon, applying a methodology and a terminology".

Let us also note that, no matter how unsubstantiated I consider the Russian viewpoint to be, it is part of a minority of voices that disagree with the term "occupation". I consider the term "occupation" applies, and the arguments against it to be weak, and I think that the minority opinion should not become overrepresented - but creating this article is basically branding people who disagree and turning an ongoing debate into "we're right and they're wrong". This is not and cannot be validated by this project.

The fact that you have to appeal to off-topic arguments in order to draw up support the article is, to me, indicative that this article has a message to give to its readers. Dahn 12:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The official Russian viewpoint is fact, this article is about that viewpoint. It is quite legitimate to have articles reporting the fact of the viewpoint with out making any judgements about the validiity or correctness of that view point. Martintg 17:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing convincing me that official viewpoints need separate articles as a rule, especially when all that is relevant can be summarized in a single paragraph. In fact, I strongly object to creating articles about each single POV, which is the definition of content forking, and this strikes me as an attempt to marginalize that POV, disguise it as a phenomenon, and place a label on it. In fact, the definitions of both denial and denialism indicate that the article is written from a POV, and clash with your definition of reporting "without making any judgments about the validity or correctness of that view point". Dahn 17:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no single overarching principle here. Sometimes, official viewpoints need articles of their own, sometimes, not. It depends on a number of factors; for example, structurally simple viewpoints often don't, and viewpoints with heavy background data requirements often do. Notability is a factor, too -- and this particular viewpoint, having been a major factor in a Latvian presidential election, not to mention an important force in recent international relations between Russia, Northern Europe and Eastern Europe, is certainly quite notable in its own rights. Διγυρεν_{Εμπροσ!} 00:57, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Articles discussing a single POV can still be neutral and is not considered a POV fork, see Misplaced Pages:Content_forking#Articles_whose_subject_is_a_POV: "Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other other appropriate points of view." The viewpoint of the Russian federation in regard to Soviet occupation is notable. Its denial is related to the fact that many former Eastern bloc countries have made noises about claiming compensation. So it is understandable that Russia would deny it, as anyone faced with a potential compension claim would. This article attempts not to promote a particular viewpoint of the viiewpoint, just the fact of the viewpoint, and the reasons behind it. Martintg 19:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

1. There is a world of difference between "can" and "should", and wikipedia is not about creating all articles that could be created. 2. If you would address my full point, you'll note that I raise the issue of this article being put up as a way to marginalize a viewpoint. As far as I am concerned, the viewpoint marginalizes itself, since it contrasts with scholarly approaches. That doesn't mean that it's open season for debasing it and for inventing a phenomenon of "denial" with the certainty this implies (a certainty which, I feel compelled to point out, is in actuality the editors' interpretation of a limited number of written sources). 3. In any case, all info referring to the official Russian position (speculations about its motivations aside!) should be summarized somewhere in any any existing "occupation" article, as it is a relevant take on the events even if going against scholarly consensus. The article we are discussing only touches that official Russian position briefly, under a POV title and in a context filled with peacock terms and weasel words (not to mention original research), and connects it with Soviet historiography - which may or may not be the case. This is indicative that there is nothing to validate a separate article on the position in question, especially when considering that a proper article on the official position would have to explain and reference the whole historical context. This in turn means that this topic, already overwhelmed by articles on the exact same topic, would only gain another tiresome and obsessing text. Dahn 19:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

That's your point of view, I respect that, but I have to disagree. I don't see the intent of the article is to marginalise some viewpoint, in fact quite the opposite, rather than have it hidden in a number of occupation articles as you seem to suggest, it brings it to the forefront in an article of its own. If there are issues of neutrality, peacock terms or weasel words, this is an editorial issue than can be fixed. The fact that the article is legitimately concerned with a particular point-of-view subject, therefore it must necessarily indicate that in the title to be compliant with policy. Martintg 19:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep, per Sander Säde. Dpotop 12:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete or very aggressively re-write. Despite improved sourcing, it is still a POV fork, filled with wild claims, which violates WP's core principles. Finally, quite frankly, I am shocked by the log-rolling that has allegedly happened here. Bearian 13:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Note: As this discussion seems to have been announced already at everywhere else, I made also little notification at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Lithuania.--Staberinde 13:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong Delete (1) A Google phrase search, google:"Denial+of+Soviet+Occupation", yields just eight results, including two here at Misplaced Pages. This is a non-notable neologism, unlike google:"Holocaust+denial", which yields more than a million hits. (2) This article was created as a WP:COATRACK, to push a nationalistic agenda, in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:POINT. - Jehochman 14:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete. The general topic is all right, but the "denial phenomenon" just does not merit its own article. As stated, calling the Soviet occupations of various countries a "liberation" is a minority opinion everywhere outside Russia. Even if the article's neutrality is improved (which is already unlikely in itself, the topic being as much of a flamebait as any stupid ethnic debate), it has zero chance of ever meeting WP:SYN. The encyclopedic part of the information in there should go into Foreign relations of Russia, Occupation of Baltic states, and possibly elsewhere. KissL 14:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • In that case, wouldn't merge to Soviet occupations be a better solution then deletion?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Since I have proposed a similar solution, I take the liberty to comment on this. Merge is an okay alternative in theory, but, afaict, the fact is that most of the article does not comply with any wikipedia principles and will simply have to be deleted. IMO, what is not pure speculation of manifesto in that text amounts to a single paragraph or so, which can be merged just as it can be re-written and added to the "occupations" article. Dahn 14:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Basically, I agree: there is too little useful information (a few sentences) to mention in too many articles (probably tens of them). Also, when the signal-to-noise ratio of a flamebait article is low, it is better to have it deleted in its entirety so that you don't end up having to explain the removal of each and every inappropriate sentence or section once every month. KissL 14:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete This is clearly a POV fork of several articles as mentioned above. The fact that it is also recreation of a deleted article seals it. I'm not saying this can't be dealt with but there are several articles that this could be fitted into to maintain a NPOV perspective on this. EconomicsGuy 15:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong delete per Jehochman and Bearian. They both raise excellent points, so rather than reiterate, I'm just going to support their statements. Bfigura 15:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete per Alex Bakharev and Jehochman.--Yaroslav Blanter 16:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep. There are no any doubts that Russian officials denied occupation of Baltic states, as follows from cited sources. This is a notable phenomenon, as follows from numerous publications on the subject. Yes, these denails could be mentioned in Soviet occupations article. However, "Soviet occupations" is too big already; so it makes a lot of sense to provide a number of separate, more detailed articles on related topics, such as this one. Soviet denialism was different and of wider scope, and its deletion was far from a clear consensus.Biophys 16:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The article defines its scope as not limited to Baltic states. It speaks about denialism in context of entire E Europe and falsifies sources that they support that. We are not discussing the notability of the phenomen at AfD. We are discussing the validity of the article in its current form and shape. --Irpen 16:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
    • So, the editors should be given some time (say a week) to provide sources about the denials with respect to entire E. Europe. If they can not, the scope of this artiicle should be reduced. There is no reason for deletion.Biophys 16:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - Fix POV, Fix OR. these are not reasons for deletion. If there are disputes about how to fix it, resolve them. When i read the article the OR wasn't that bad, the article has a point of view, but it can be fixed up. Those editors who are "nationalists" of all stripes will hate hate hate the proper article that should be written here. try to remember that. --Rocksanddirt 16:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete POV and a repost. ffm 17:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Strong keep as per Rocksandritt and K. Lásztocska. --Koppany 17:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as repost. Everything notable about russian point of view is already in Occupation of Baltic states.Garret Beaumain 17:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep per Renata and other users with good faith and common sense. - Darwinek 17:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. I see that people still opine according to their foregone national preconceptions. Dahn was one notable exception, and it's probably the reason why he enjoys such a standing in the community, as opposed to ordinary members of ethnic cliques. This is so predictable that one can't do anything but sigh. --Ghirla 18:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • May I point out, dear sir, that you too are voting according to what might be considered your own "foregone national preconceptions." Look at the speck in your own eye before throwing rocks out of glass houses, or whatever...K. Lásztocska 18:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
    • A comment to Ghirla's remark - "And look who is talking..." Tymek 18:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Amazing that Ghirla is the same individual that talked about reporting another user for incivility. I've never lived a day of my life in Soviet-occupied Europe, nor have my parents or grand-parents. What "foregone national preconceptions" am I a victim of? JdeJ 21:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Merge to the Soviet historiography or something else. --Brand спойт 18:30, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not just about the interpretation of history, the main driver is potential liability for compensation, if Moscow admits it, it fears that it may make itself liable. I recall reading about it in the english language Russian news sites some years back. Certainly many former Eastern bloc countries have made noises. It's standard legal practice to deny everything if you are faced with a potential claim. Martintg 19:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• Delete as OR and POV. --Zserghei 19:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete POV-fork and per Ghirlandajo Serebr 20:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - Occupation of Baltic States article should concentrate on the historical events themselves while this article is about the present-day discussion. The topic seems to be an important factor in Russian-Baltic relations. Zello 20:19, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Keep - IF, as the article states, the topic is indeed an official position of the Russian Federation then this is certainly encyclopaedic and not necessarily WP:POVFORK. In this case it could be improved and uncluttered (start by removing all those tags next to the references) but there's no reason the casual browser should not hear of it in an encyclopaedia. If on the other hand, it can be shown that this is not an official position of the Russian Federation then I will consider it a POVFORK and change my vote. István 20:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete POV fork. Lantios 21:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Delete as it is an Original Research and Non-Neutral Point-Of-View fork. There are no authoritative references concerning existence of the article's subject. It rather seems to be a neologism invented to make parallels between Nazi and Soviets. The article itself is not about subject matter, but about alleged occupation which is well covered by other more accurately written articles. Dr Bug (Vladimir V. Medeyko) 21:37, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment The leading French news magazine L'Express devotes a part of its latest edition exactly to the subject of how modern Russia is trying to whitewash the crimes committed during Stalin's regime. Worth to mention, as some misinformed users here suggested that this is all in the mind of the person who created this article and another user questioned whether this has any notability at all. The Economist also wrote about the same thing a while ago. This is a topic that has been featured in most of the leading journals across Europe, where's the lack of notability? And there's no need to "invent" stories to make parallels between Nazi Germani and Stalin's USSR, the evidences have been known to everybody for decades although they are denied these days in Russia. What I will agree upon is that the title isn't very good. The article should be extended to feature the whole story of how Russia is trying to whitewash and falsify its history, including Stalin's crimes against ordinary Russians and other peoples within the USSR. JdeJ 21:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I've had my say here, and I'll let readers decide on the value of my arguments. However, I have to point out that the above is an invitation to conflate various events into an article that will be, invariably, written from a POV perspective and contain elements dismissed by this policy. If the mentions of "misinformed users" include me, I have to point out that, for the sake of this project's credibility, wikipedia should not start generating articles on each type of commentary conceivable. If the events are noteworthy, they can be discussed within individual articles that focus on identifiable and autonomous topics, not on ad-hoc overviews. I could start articles on "Romania's failure to meet EU standards on the vaccination of pigs", "Hungary's problems with far right extremism", and "The refusal of Hamas to recognize Israel". All of these would be topics on events and tendencies for which we could gather enough material and otherwise elaborate for all we like, but that does not make them valid articles. In all such cases, other articles already exist for the relevant info to be summarized and summarized well. And encourage editors to stay out of comparisons between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union - for all the validity I tend to see in the argument when it comes to specific topics such as the Gulag (and, no, I do not believe that the comparison is perfect, for reasons that stand as self-evident), that discussion has no relevancy here. Dahn 22:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

For the record, my reference to "misinformed users" does in no way refer to Dahn. I disagree with him in this particular case, but unless most of the contributors he has remained calm, polite and provided articulate arguments for his case. That is very welcome in a discussion in which many seem to be voting just because of their nationality and unwillingness to have articles that might be critical of their own country. JdeJ 22:27, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not the intent of the article to be critical to any particular country, but to represent a notable point of view in a neutral way. Martintg 00:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Note, some have asked for a reference to the official Russian position regarding occupation. The following link is an official Russian Foreign Ministry press release from 2005 denying occupation and consequently any liability for financial compensation. --Martintg 23:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, your citation brilliantly features the problem of this article. The citation deals with the Baltic issue narrowly. The article, however, defines its scope Europe-wide and falsifies the citations by making sweeping general statement, referenced only to much narrower claims in the literature. --Irpen 00:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• The article doesn't explicitly define the scope Europe-wide, so I don't see how you could claim it falsifies the citation. Note there is a further reference to a potential Czech claim for compensation for the 1968 occupation in the body of the article. I'm sure there are similar references to official denials of responsibility in relation to other countries in the Russian language media, unless ofcourse there is no debate within Russia and all think as one mind. Since you believe the topic is notable, you could assist in finding sources in the Russian language media. This article is not intended to to pass any judgement. In my personal view, if some countries had not have made noises about squeezing Russia for compensation, official Russia may well have recognised the occupations by the Soviet Union. Martintg 01:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• I have never seen the Russian position on the lunatic POV that the countries were the Russian troops were legally stationed under the agreement with their national government, PL, CZ, HU, E Germany, can be considered "Occupied" all the way till late 80s-early 90s. The claim that the Baltic takeover of 1940 was in fact an illegal occupation is by far more plausible, has a wide international support and Russia addresses it. The claim that the entire period of 1944 to 1991 for Baltics may be called "occupation" is by far weaker, less universally accepted, but still referenceable view. The claim about EE all the way till 1989 is even more bizarre and Russia never ever even commented on that. There are many strange claims voiced from time to time. The government do not comment on each and every of them. But since you claim that the article "article doesn't explicitly define the scope Europe-wide", I will now edit it to make sure it does not and please do not revert me like you did last time. --Irpen 01:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Given that the official position of the Czech Government is that they were occupied between 1968 to 1989 , I find it highly implausible that there has been no official Russian position on the Czech claim. And I don't think the Czechs are lunatics either for hold that point of view. So the scope cannot be artificially confined to the Baltics either. Martintg 01:36, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Martintg finding something "highly implausible" is not a valid reason to assume something exists. At least not good enough for a WP article. --Irpen 01:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You are entitled to your personal view point, I am entitled to mine, but we are not to entitled to push it here on Misplaced Pages. Martintg 01:49, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Totally agree. So, please stop pushing this article based on your own speculations about the Russia's view that does not exist. --Irpen 02:14, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not, but your denial that Russia is denying the Soviet Union ever occupied EE is rather intriguing, given the extensive media coverage in the European press that JdeJ refers to above. Martintg 02:30, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

My denying and your disagreeing can be discussed at alt.politics.socialism or any other internet fora. Keep your being surprised or intrigued by my "denial" or anything out of Misplaced Pages pages please. The central premise of the article is that Russia has an official position on denying something while in fact Russia did not issues any such statements except in relation to the Baltic states. --Irpen 02:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

And therefore it is a notable topic. Martintg 04:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep The article has some problems in its current form but nothing that can't be fixed over time. I see no valid reason for deletion the article should be improved instead. Hobartimus 23:20, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. Denial of Soviet occupation is a real phenomenon and as such it deserves an article on Misplaced Pages, which so proudly dubs itself a 💕. Deletion of the article will not erase the existence of this phenomenon, and comparing those who oppose Soviet view of history to Nazis is a gross exaggeration. As Norman Davies wrote in "No simple victory": "Anyone genuinely committed to freedom, justice and democracy is duty-bound to condemn both of the great totalitarian systems without fear or favour" Tymek 03:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. The first AfD had nothing close to a consensus, so it's really not helpful to just reference the decision. I would have supported renaming Soviet occupation denialism since it does seem to implicitly ascribe fringe status to a defensible POV, and IMO does have inappropriate connotations with Holocaust denial. If Denial of Soviet occupation has either of these problems, I think it is to a much lesser extent. The rest of the nomination is just attacks on the article's creator. I don't think his revision was outrageously POV before anyone else edited it, amd it has since been edited by a healthy handful of others. I have no expertise on the subject, but it seems clear that whatever content biases there may be are not outstanding to the point of requiring a rewrite. — xDanielx /_C 04:45, 28 September 2007 (UTC)