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	Homeopathy was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 14, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed September 27, 2007 Good article nominee Listed October 8, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

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On 14 September 2007, Homeopathy was linked from Slashdot, a high-traffic website. (Traffic) All prior and subsequent edits to the article are noted in its revision history.

Archives

Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 1 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 2 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 3 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 4 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 5 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 6 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 7 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 8 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 9 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 10 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 11 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 12 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 13 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 14 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 15 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 16 Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 17

New drugs

Ahem, Aconite had been in use for centuries before homeopathy! and apart from that you should say SOME modern drugs. Not too sure about nitroglycerine it is a homeopathic remedy forsure but was it around before? Peter morrell 13:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Added "Some". In order to determine exactly the details of homeopaties contribution to Aconite, I'd need the full text of the source. this one. If anyone has it, Please E-mail it to me. Thanks. Wikidudeman 14:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

As I had anticipated

The reluctance to leave the text in the sandbox longer and invite more input has lead to the current situation. It is already dangerously POV and tons of POV warriors are arriving to push it further yet to proclaim homeopathy as some wonderful medical and scientific advance supported by testing. This is just pure nonsense. What a mess.--Filll 18:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

How is the article itself POV? Please give examples. Wikidudeman 18:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

For one thing, the article waits until nearly the end of the introduction (after two lengthy paragraphs) to state that the claims of effectiveness of homeopathic remedies are unsupported by scientific studies. I have no idea how many readers come through WP to read this article, who may be in dire need of healing the particular things that ail them. But the statement that the remedies are unsupported by evidence (referring to the hundreds double-blind and other properly controlled studies that have been done) should come right after the first paragraph, not after the lead summary of the history. (See WP:NPOV#Undue_weight.) In other words, even right in the lead, the second and third paragraphs should be reversed. Also, given the overwhelming weight of independent experimental evidence, the statement "Claims for the medical efficacy of homeopathic treatments are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies." should probably be in bold typeface. The latter is something I'll proceed to do now. Perhaps a statement to this effect should even be in a disclaimer at the top of the article, prior to the lead text. ... Kenosis 18:33, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Boldface for emphasis is generally frowned upon. See Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style_(text_formatting)#Boldface WP:Manual of Style - Text Formatting. I changed the text to be in italics instead. No comment on whether or not I agree that this text should be emphasized though. -- Levine2112 18:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Any user who reads the article can clearly see "Medical and scientific analysis" in the table of contents. You can't just add a "disclaimer" anywhere in the article as that's against WP:MOS. No articles do that. Wikidudeman 19:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Meaning that it doesn't support your aims to point out clearly that Homeopathy is pseudoscience. Quite the shame, really. Not too sure which part of WP:Undue Weight you don't grasp, but you'd better give it that old college try or this article will just descend further into a morrass of effluvial piffle. •Jim62sch• 19:43, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What part of WP:Undue Weight says that Homeopathy must be said to be a pseudoscience? I've read WP:Undue Weight and it says no such thing. What it does says is that you shouldn't give undue weight to a fringe topic. This article does no such thing. No part of this article even argues that Homeopathy works. Not a single sentence. Saying that "Homeopathy is a pseudoscience" would actually be in violation of WP:Undue Weight. However saying that "So and so says it's a pseudoscience" wouldn't. If you're going to reference policy, you should clarify exactly what part of that reference backs what you're saying up. Wikidudeman 19:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Nothing says that it must be. However, as the scientific consensus is that homeopathy is pseudoscience, then the rules for undue weight come into play. None of this is difficult, and I'm beging to feel like I'm discussing this with someone far less than half my age. •Jim62sch• 20:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

This is prima facie evidence that you "own" the article. Why can't you walk away. First, you blame me and Jim for being mean to you. Then, Filll. What now? Kenosis and Guettarda? How about the rest of the project? Good to see support from the usual POV-warriors for your POV writing. Frustrating. You really need to walk away. OrangeMarlin 19:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't own the article. I'm just trying to improve it and I will continue to do so. I've proven numerous times that none of my behavior exhibited corresponds to thinking I own the article and I've asked you numerous times to give clear examples of how something I do corresponds to the contention that I "Own" the article and you've failed to do so. Stop accusing me of "Owning" the article and Stop accusing me of being a "POV warrior". Both are unhelpful. I'm tired of asking you politely to be civil towards me and other editors. Wikidudeman 20:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

And we're getting tired of trying to explain the bleeding obvious to someone who refuses to listen, and merely parrots his own responses ad nauseum. And here we are. •Jim62sch• 20:10, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I guess WDM doesn't understand the word prima facie. You accuse me of accusing you of owning the article. The evidence is in this thread. You don't ever try to get a consensus, you just tell everyone they are wrong. That is the evidence, on the face of it, which makes me believe you would rather own the article than try to build consensus (and the exact reason why so many people opposed your RfA). You haven't learned why you were opposed. This article needs work, but accusing me of whatever, accusing others of being in league with me, or making accusations whatsoever is not a good trait. Many people have problems with the NPOV of this article. How about building it. But, accusations work too. BTW, never once called you a POV-warrior, because you aren't. You're just accepting their help, because you don't want any changes to the article. Sad, actually. OrangeMarlin 20:15, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm being exceedingly polite. You should hear what I'm saying about you to my computer screen. OrangeMarlin 20:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Give me 1 example of where I did not try to build consensus but rather told "everyone they were wrong". Wikidudeman 20:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

How about you read your various dismissals of every point raised to you by anyone other than Morrell? You so desperately want your various piss-ass sources to be valid that you absolutely refuse to listen to any criticism regarding their lack of validity. •Jim62sch• 20:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean? If I think a source is valid and reliable then I will defend such beliefs to other editors. Nowhere in WP:OWN does it say that editors can't defend their beliefs...Wikidudeman 20:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

You know what, you're getting tendentious. Are you intentionally ignoring what I wrote above? I said this thread is prima facie evidence of your ownership--not building NPOV is just a consequence. OrangeMarlin 20:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem prima facie to me. I'm making a very simple request. If my behavior exhibited gives the impression that I "Own" the article then give 1 example of such behavior. You claim that I don't try to build consensus but rather "tell everyone they are wrong"? Well my simple request is that you give 1 single example of such behavior as it relates directly to this article (since we're talking about consensus building here). Can you give one single example? Wikidudeman 20:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Rawk! •Jim62sch• 20:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

What? Wikidudeman 20:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to say, it does look to me as if there are some WP:OWN problems here. I have said the LEAD is too long maybe 20 times. Several others have said the same thing. And I and others were just told, over and over and over and over, to jump in the lake. This to me is a sign of a problem. However, there are many many many other problems here.

I also think the claim that homeopathy is not pseudoscience or pseudomedicine or whatever is the most amazingly outrageous statement I have seen in a while. What the heck??? On what basis can anyone make such a claim?--Filll 21:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fill, No one told you to "Jump into a lake". In response to your criticism that this lead is too long, I cited WP:LEAD. For an article of this size, a lead section of at least 3 paragraphs is needed to properly summarize it. Any smaller and it would leave out relevant material in the summary and would not be suitable. Discussions work on the basis that both individuals in the discussion respond to each other. Saying that the lead is too large and not responding to my rebuttal doesn't get us anywhere. You say the lead is too large. I respond in disagreement. You never respond back. You say the lead is too large again a few weeks later, I respond with the same disagreement. You never respond back. What am I left to do? I disagree with you and believe the lead is a good size. I've offered my reasons and you have never responded to them. I never told you to "Jump into a lake". I was NEVER dismissive of your criticism either. I simply said that I disagree and offered my reasons. You never responded back, not once. The Evolution lead is about the same size as this one. Is that one too large also?

As far as "Homeopathy" being a pseudoscience, Maybe it is by definition. Maybe it isn't. Both the idea that it is and isn't can be represented in the article coinciding with WP:Weight Wikidudeman 21:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

It is so clearly pseudoscience that it hits nearly all of the points that define the issue. Yes, you do say jump in the lake, by intentionally or unintentionally ignoring comments. But remember, you have accused me, Jim, Filll, CO, and others of getting on your case. OrangeMarlin 21:32, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If I ignored comments then why do I reply to them? I can't both reply to comments and ignore them at the same time. Everytime Filll has brought up anything I have responded to it if I disagreed with it. See this for the example just recently. I disagree with his claim that the lead is too long. I do not ignore it, I respond to it directly and explain why I disagree with it. That's how wikipedia works. Please correct your assertion that I "ignore comments". Wikidudeman 21:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Back to ownership. And since when is it your responsibility to fix the lead? OrangeMarlin 21:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Since I started editing wikipedia. Wikidudeman 23:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Wikidudeman responded. To me and others. And basically told us we had no grounds to complain. And I disagreed, and others disagreed, but what are we supposed to do? Get into a big uncivil fight? I had already put many many hours into the article, and a good fraction of my efforts were flushed down the toilet when Wikidudeman showed up and "took over" the article. I did not want to bang my head on the wall, over and over, pointlessly or get into another fight. The article is improved in some ways for sure, but in other ways, it gives me pause. I have not looked at the evolution LEAD for a while, but if it has ballooned to the same size as this one with as much detail, it is too long and needs to be trimmed. I am not the only one who said this. Several others said it, with the same results. And to dispute the pseudoscience nature of this article is one of the most hilarioius ridiculous statements I have ever seen. That alone tells me that Wikidudeman might have to recuse himself from editing this article.--Filll 22:05, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, You're essentially putting words into my mouth. First you claim I told you to "Jump into a lake" when I said no such thing or anything even remotely like that and then you claim that I told you that you had "no grounds to complain"? That's totally false as well. If you want to discuss the lead then we can do that, however if you want to try to claim I said things that I didn't then that is another issue. Concerning the lead, Allow me to cite directly from WP:LEAD:

The appropriate length of the lead section depends on the total length of the article. As a general guideline, the lead should be no longer than four paragraphs. The following suggestion may be useful:

This article is 78.2 KB long and has about 48,000 characters. Thus, Per WP:LEAD the lead needs to be about 3-4 paragraphs long to accurately summarize the article. I am disagreeing with you. I'm not dismissing you. I want you to reply and tell me why my reasoning for keeping the length of the lead is wrong and why it needs to be shortened. That's how discussions work. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you and take all disagreements personal then I can't help that. However if you propose something that I disagree with then I will explain that I disagree. You say that the alternative to sitting back and doing nothing is getting into a "big uncivil fight". Let me say that this is totally untrue. Wikidudeman 23:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

If I was to try to change it, obviously this would be World War III, given your attitude I am afraid. At least that is my opinion. Sorry if you do not see it that way. I do not want to fight. It would take me mounting a massive offensive with maybe 20 or 30 friends and take weeks of time to change anything. If we are going to put that kind of effort in, we might as well do something more substantial than just change the LEAD. --Filll 00:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Haha, Firstly, I don't edit war. If you make an edit that I disagree with I firstly revert and alter the reversion in an attempt to create common ground. If that is reverted then I bring it to the talk page for discussion. If you fail to discuss it then I revert it again in a few days. I don't edit war. I've made numerous offers for you to explain your reasoning behind wanting the lead smaller and you've never done so. Secondly, You accuse me of WP:Own yet state that you could or would attempt to force consensus? Not only would that be a violation of WP:OWN, It would also be WP:CANVAS. Trying to get a large number of editors not previously part of the article to force a consensus in an attempt to have the article a way you want it would be Canvassing and would be a violation of the guideline. Wikidudeman 01:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You do not think there are 20 or 30 pro-science people that have edited this article and have an interest in it? Hmm...And I didn't say I was going to do that, only that that might be the only way to establish a consensus that was pro-science here and also might tighten up some more of the article, including the LEAD. However, it is just exhausting to go through these endless fights. I could go and prepare alternate leads in a sandbox and count the number of characters in your LEAD here and the extraneous material included in the LEAD that might be trimmed and compare it to a baseline of FA articles and their LEADs. However, I get tired of this. And this article is on a piece of quackery/pseudoscience.--Filll 02:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, Firstly, and again, Sending some sort of message out to people in an attempt to force consensus would be WP:CANVAS. Period.

Secondly, This lead is good. This lead got this article to GA status. This article has never been to GA status. Perhaps you're wrong about the lead and making it smaller would only hurt the article. Is that a possibility?

Thirdly, Truly improving Misplaced Pages is exhausting. It's not easy. If you want the easy way out and want me to simply agree to everything you say and never put up any arguments then that isn't going to happen. Sorry. You seem to interpret constructive discussion as "fighting".Wikidudeman 02:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but I would be careful about lecturing about canvassing if I were you. And I know what it would take to move things in a more balanced direction.--Filll 06:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, Firstly, I don't Canvass. Canvassing is sending messages in an attempt to shift consensus into your favor. When I send mass messages I send them to ALL major contributors of an article to alert them of a pending rewrite. Regardless of their views. That's not canvassing. There's a big difference.

Secondly, What would it take to get this article more balanced? I'm all for improving the article. However not via means of breaking policy or guidelines. I want to improve the article the right way. That means usually the hard way. Wikidudeman 12:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I fully expect to see "20 or 30 pro-science people" suddenly show up and start tag-team edit warring and high-five 3RR'ing, as usual. I'm simply blown away by the hypocrisy and bad faith I see exhibited here. WPD has made his point, and glaringly so. To the point of embarrassment for others, if they could only see it as observers do. This is a good article, well-balanced, with excellent NPOV information. WPD has done all he can to help bring it to that point, without "owning" it at any point in the process. There truly should be some red faces on the other side of those screens, but I doubt it's happening. It sure would be nice if, instead of throwing accusations and tantrums, editors would just resolve to work together to make a good article even better, and not just threatening to bring even more POV-warriors like themselves here to "take care of business." --profg 04:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but think I would be careful about making such accusations if I were you.--Filll 06:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

He's just bitter: those pro-science, anti-religion, commie-atheist-bleeding-heart-liberal-fascist types didn't vote properly.

As for the rest, that screed would be utterly devoid of value were it not for the fact that it clearly betrayed the alleged professor's very real and troubling anti-knowledge POV. Certainly were I to raise my children in such an environment I should be very red-faced indeed, but I'm sure that growling face on the other side of the screen isn't the least bit tinted.•Jim62sch• 22:11, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Relevant policy discussion here only please

At WP:MOS, it says that italics should be used sparingly for emphasis. I don't see any compelling reason why this sentence should be emphasized any more than any other sentence. If there is a compelling reason why, please provide here as I don't think Kenosis' argument above is compelling enough. -- Levine2112 20:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any reason either. Wikidudeman 20:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I suppose we'll await his answer, then. •Jim62sch• 20:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

RfC alert

I figure a number of editors here might be interested in this:

• Link to RfC at alternative medicine.

-- Fyslee / talk 19:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Help tag article

I am in the process of adding numerous new sources to the article and I thought I would ask everyone here to go through the article and add a "citation needed" tag to anything that they believe needs a citation so that I can add one. Please don't delete any information, simply add a tag and I will follow behind and add a reference for everything that has been tagged as needing a citation. Thank you. Wikidudeman 12:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Per your request, I started tagging statements that are not clearly supported by references. In addition, I found a problem with the reference given in one case:

The term "homeopathy" was coined by Hahnemann and first appeared in print in 1807, although he began outlining his theories of 'medical similars' in a series of articles and monographs in 1796.

Notes 28 and 29 do not support the statements in the sentence, they merely provide links to the publications mentioned. They do not support the statement that the term homeopathy first appeared in the 1807 publication or that Hahnemann began outlining his ideas earlier. Guettarda 14:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to fix that. Wikidudeman 14:04, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW - some of the things I tagged may be supported by a single paragraph-wide ref at the end of the para, but there's no way to tell without reading the ref. They may just look uncited. Guettarda 14:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

That's the case in some instances. I'm going through and making it easier to recognize. Wikidudeman 14:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment

Article has been listed at - Misplaced Pages:Good_article_reassessment#Homeopathy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I am proposing that this article be delisted according the following criteria:

1. It is well written. In this respect:

   (a) the prose is clear and the grammar is correct; and

   I will agree that it mostly is.

   (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.

   Lead does not meet this standard.

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable. In this respect, it:

   (a) provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;

   No. References are all over the place.

   (b) at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and

   Improper sources are utilized, including unverified and unpublished sources, and sources that are used to quote other sources.

   (c) contains no original research.

   Mostly original research. Should be rewritten.

3. It is broad in its coverage. In this respect, it:

   (a) addresses the major aspects of the topic; and

   Fine.

   (b) stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary details (see summary style).

   Fine

4. It is neutral; that is, it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

   Violates WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOR. Vast majority of research articles published in peer-reviewed journals criticize Homeopathy. However, less than 1/3 of the words in the lead are written as criticism. The critical analysis of the field is placed at the end of the article. Undue weight is given to support of the field. Not enough information written about harming patients. Too much information written about regulation of Homeopathy, which infers acceptability. Pseudoscience tag has been removed.

5. It is stable; that is, it does not change significantly from day to day and is not the subject of an ongoing edit war. Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, and improvements based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply.

   Constant reverting of NPOV material by owners of the article. Edit history shows the lack of stability and lack of consensus.

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic. In this respect:

   (a) the images are appropriate to the subject, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status; and

   (b) non-free images meet the criteria for fair use images and are labeled accordingly.

   Fine.

OrangeMarlin 16:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're just posting this to help improve the article then you're going to need to offer a LOT more details on what problems you see with NPOV, OR, etc. If you are actually trying to get the GA status reviewed then you need to bring it here: WP:GA/R so that other editors not involved can comment on how to improve it. Wikidudeman 16:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Any editor can revoke the GA status. I intend to do so unless my points are addressed. OrangeMarlin 16:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Explain in detail and give examples of how...

• The lead does not meet] guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation. Please offer detailed examples corresponding to the aforementioned guidelines.
• Explain what parts of the article contain no original research and be very specific including exact sentences and or sections.
• Explain in detail including giving examples of how it Violates WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOR.

Thanks. Wikidudeman 16:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Because you WP:OWN the article, you refuse to participate in any discussion. You do not gain consensus except with two (count them TWO) editors, one of whom is so pro Alternative stuff, you couldn't gain a consensus from as much as you could from me, and the second of whom is just out to pick a fight with anyone who disagrees with his Creationist babbling, and he knows the pro-science people edit these Alternative articles too. Your manner is of a "fuck off, I know better" attitude. I don't feel as though you spend a nanosecond engaging me or other editors in our issues with this article--you utilize a highly passive-aggressive style of argumentation. We criticize something and you take it personally, rather than building consensus. But you act as if you're trying, when all you do is defend yourself. If I were the only one with a tendentious attitude toward this article, your attitude might be acceptable. But the number of editors that have been frustrated with you and just give up is getting large. You refuse to answer any of our complaints and just attack us with a "I'm better than you and smarter than you" response. So, you do not rate my reply. I will let the GA and FA people help out. I'm delisting the article in a couple of days unless you address my complaints. The article is POV. Let me use the "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck" analogy. This is a duck. OrangeMarlin 16:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I've asked for examples of where I exhibit ownership of the article and you've failed to ever provide any. Let's try to keep on the topic of the content of the article then. You've made criticism of the article and I'm asking for detailed examples. You can't delist the article without providing examples of your complaints. I can't improve the article without examples. Wikidudeman 16:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I have some concerns as well. I certainly wonder about some parts, such as the level of detail in the LEAD. I also wonder that this article goes into such great detail about legal details around the world, and has such little description of the tests of homeopathy and its failures. I also think that the potencies should be described in greater detail as I outlined in the previous draft. However, I am not sure this belongs in this article, but it would be very valuable for the average reader to understand homeopathic remedies to have it available someplace on WP.

I think the LEAD should state very succinctly what homeopathy is, and the immediately state because of WP:UNDUE that it is basically quackery, and why. The average reader is not going to want to wade through a huge long description in the LEAD.--Filll 16:56, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

So you're saying that the lead should give more weight to criticism of homeopathy than to what homeopathy actually is? This article isn't titled "Criticism of Homeopathy" but rather simply "Homeopathy". This means that more detail should be given explaining what exactly homeopathy is and how it supposedly works than criticism of it. After all you can't criticize anything without explaining what it is. The part about legality is very important because not only does it blend into prevalence of use around the world, but also legality is relevant to the subject. It must be elaborated upon and if we do it with one country then we must be through in our coverage. Wikidudeman 17:00, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

You know darn well I did not advocate this approach, of shoving everything in one article and then squeezing out all balancing material. This is a pseudoscience/quackery article, and to remove all that material or downplay it since there is now no room for it is just basically a bit of slight of hand. However, I think few pro-science editors are fooled.

By this argument, Intelligent design would just be a recruiting document for the Discovery Institute, and include no or minimal critical material, since one just has to "describe" it. However, the relevant point is that according to well over 99% of scientists, in the fields in which intelligent design purports to be valid, view intelligent design as pure crap. Homeopathy purports to be a form of medical treatment. Most scientists and allopathic medical practitioners in the relevant fields believe homeopathy is pure crap. Therefore, an article in an NPOV encyclopeida should present the majority view, just as is done in the case of intelligent design. --Filll 17:09, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, The previous situation was a large collection of a mess of articles that were impossible to navigate and contained redundant informatin, copied and pasted. Also, No one is saying that there is "No room" for anything. If you think something should be added then post what you think should be added so we can discuss it. I've never once claimed that criticism should be excluded because there was no room. I would support adding more information on various studies and their results. The current version basically summarizes the meta-analysis of the studies, however if you want to go into some more detail then we can do that as well. And again, Making it clear that the scientific consensus is that Homeopathy does not work does NOT MEAN that you have only that information. Right now the article does make it clear that Homeopathy is not supported by the mainstream science. Wikidudeman 17:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course, it should not be only material about the negative features of homeopathy. But by WP:UNDUE, the fraction of negative material must be roughly proportionate to the negative views in the mainstream. The intelligent design article is not only about the negative aspects of intelligent design, but contains substantial amounts of expository material as well. --Filll 17:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE means that more weight should not be given to the contention that Homeopathy works than to the contention that it does not work. The article does no such thing. WP:UNDUE doesn't mean that more weight should be given to the criticism of a topic than to what the topic is actually about. This article doesn't contain a single sentence adding to the idea that Homeopathy "works". It has a few sentences about Homeopathies contributions to modern science as far as experimental studies goes in the early 19th century but that's it. The vast majority of the commentary in this article about the efficacy of homeopathy is that it does not work. Other information such as philosophy and history have nothing to do with it's efficacy and thus can't be counted as weight in support of homeopathy. Wikidudeman 17:29, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment

The standard GAR procedure is to list the article at Misplaced Pages:Good article reassessment and allow an independent editor who has not edited the article to assess it against the Good Article criteria. It is strongly discouraged for editors who have contributed to articles to act as reviewers in either the listing or delisting process. This poses an obvious conflict of interest. In response to Orangemarlin and Fill's concerns I have listed the article on the review page for a neutral review. Please add specific points of concern to this page. Tim Vickers 22:02, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Tim, I read the GAR procedure for reassessment, and it says to:

2. Leave a message on the article talk page detailing any remaining problems. If appropriate, add maintenance templates to the article.

3. Allow time for other editors to respond. If the article still does not meet the criteria, it can be delisted.

I was following procedure. I must have misunderstood the process. OrangeMarlin 00:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you are quite correct about the rest of the process, but point (1) is the most important here, rather than points (2) or (3). Neither you, I nor anybody else involved in writing this article should become involved as reviewers in the GA process. However, while we can't make impartial judgements on this, specific and detailed comments on the GAR page are welcome from anybody. Tim Vickers 01:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I thought, and I could be incorrect, that WP:GAR says to try to fix things at the article and talk page before requests reassessment. That's what I thought I was doing. I didn't think I had to list it at GAR until I, as an editor, became dissatisfied with the results. That's all. OrangeMarlin 01:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, everything seems to be moving along properly right now. Just for future reference, fixing problems in an article yourself is encouraged, but certainly not mandatory. Homestarmy 01:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Orange, There would have never even have been a need for a GA review if you would be more specific in your criticism. You make it impossible to improve the article due to your vague criticisms and failure to provide detailed examples. I would appreciate everyone to constructively criticize the article so that it can be improved accordingly, however simply saying it's "POV" or It contains "Original research" without providing a single example is very unhelpful. Wikidudeman 13:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this is true WDM. However, you have to learn to read the signals that others have sent to you for months now. Just pounding ahead over the objections of other seasoned editors is not the best policy.--Filll 13:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I shouldn't have to attempt to read subtle signals from other editors. If you see a problem with the article then elaborate on it, give details and examples, then let us discuss it. Otherwise there's nothing that I can really do. I want to improve the article as much as possible. You've brought up the lead, I disagree with you on that. If you want to trim down the lead a little bit then let's figure out a way that we can accurately get a consensus on it. Here, You can edit this lead here on a subpage of my userpage:User:Wikidudeman/leaddraft. I won't edit that page at all. You can make edits to it until you're satisfied with how the lead should look and then I can look at the differences and see what has changed and then add comments so that we can get to an agreement on how the lead should be. I think this is a good way to do it as it avoids unnecessary reverts and edits to the actual article until we have an agreement. Tell me what you think. Wikidudeman 13:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I've given specifics before. I'm tired of your actions, but please go ahead with your holier than thou attitude. There are so many diffs to use against you in your next attempt at RfA, it will be amusing. OrangeMarlin 14:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well let's start with the Diffs where you gave specific examples of the problems with the article. Thanks. Wikidudeman 14:21, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Your Passive aggressive baiting of me won't work. How about dealing with one issue--the leads gives too much weight to Homeopathy. The bulk of words should attack this pseudoscience. There. OrangeMarlin 14:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

So you're essentially saying that the lead give more weight to criticism of homeopathy than explanation of what homeopathy actually is? Please explain your reasoning behind this. WP:WEIGHT doesn't mean that an article need give more weight to criticism of a subject than to an explanation of the subject itself, It means that it shouldn't give more weight to the idea that the Homeopathy works than to the idea it doesn't. This article gives ZERO weight to the idea that homeopathy works at this point. Wikidudeman 14:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

We're starting over again here. No, that's not what I desire with respect to undue weight. But in describing the various isms (I'm not even sure how to categorize it), it does appear that this area has a wealth of valid research--that's the impression I get. So, I disagree. It does read like homeopathy works. I guess that's where I find a difference between how I read the article and how you do, and why I keep accusing you of ownership. Maybe it's not ownership as it is that it's hard to read one's own writing from a neutral POV--you might think you know what you were saying, but the casual reader does not. I'm trying to make myself clearer here. OrangeMarlin 18:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said below, this seems mainly a problem in the history sections, where it's also the most understandable, and, perhaps, hardest to fix. Adam Cuerden 18:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I made a start at doing this by moving some material on the history of skeptical thought on homeopathy into the history section. Tim Vickers 17:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you support it staying a Good Article, Tim? If so please add your support or comments at the reassessment. Thanks. Wikidudeman 17:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

My thoughts on this article

(Copied from the GA review)

In the context of alternative medicine articles, almost all of which are simply awful, homeopathy stands as a rare example of an article that actually attempts to do it well.

Is it perfect? No. It's awkward in a couple points, and, yes, it wouldn't be unreasonable to be a bit more critical here and there. Could it be better? Yes. But it deserves more praise than it's getting from people who haven't participated in the process, and don't know what a long haul it is.

Does it violate WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:FRINGE? When Wikidudeman asked me, I said "Technically, yes". But that, perhaps, is not nuanced enough for here.

Homeopathy violates basic principles of science, and so comes under the guidelines for pseudoscience and fringe views. The article does contain a fair bit of justified criticism - while describing miasms, and dilution and succussion, we do break to mention the problems with these ideas. Is it criticised enough? No, some of the criticism - notably of the high dilutions - is not particularly well-written, and more criticism of other homeopathic concepts wouldn't be inappropriate. The section on "Concepts", and, to a lesser extent, the other history sections, are probably the worst offenders: Hahnemann's ideas are presented as if they were true, and criticism is absent. This is a fairly easy trap to slip into when writing about how someone came about their views when your primary reference is their writings. But it's still not good.

Again, however, I'd like to point out that it's better, in this respect, than pretty much any other alternative medicine article. If we want to make it better, we are going to have to be willing and ready to get some people very, very angry at us.

As for the sources... Well, Hahnemann's writings are fairly omnipresent, but given alternative medicine and other fringe theories' well-documented resistance to change, this isn't as bad as it might sound. The sources could definitely use a little clean-up, formatting of sources is inconsistent, and source 35, "The Naturopathic School. NCNM. Retrieved on 2007-09-13." does not really support its sentence. Source 128, "Homeopathy in Malaysia. Whole Health Now Homeopathy. Retrieved on 2007-09-25." - is probably not reliable enough for what it's used for.

Should it be GA? Well, if compared to other alternative medicine articles, perhaps yes. On objective standards, perhaps no. In any case, let's not downplay the achievement of getting it this far. Alternative medicine articles are an uphill battle that Misplaced Pages has only just started to fight. Attacking the people that began the struggle is inappropriate. Adam Cuerden 18:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Well written. But, if we can make Intelligent design work, this should be easier. But I could be in denial. OrangeMarlin 18:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello - I saw this on the FTN. I've changed around one section (5.1) which seemed awkwardly worded. Still, it certainly looks like a good startthis article looks good, especially compared with some of the other alternative medicine articles. Hal peridol 02:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I also think the Homeopathy article is well done. Maybe wordier than necessary. Here are a few specifics where I think it could be improved.

1) I think I can guess the meaning of "vehicle" in paragraph 2, but I should not have to.

2) I think the sentence starting “Although the ideas of homeopathy no longer form part of mainstream science...” is too long.

3) QUOTING: "It should be noted however that not all homeopaths advocated extremely high potencies. Many of the early homeopaths were originally doctors and generally tended to use lower potencies such as "3x" or "6x", rarely going beyond "12x". A good example of this approach is that of Dr. Richard Hughes, who dismissed the extremely high potencies as unnecessary. This was the dominant pattern in Europe throughout the 1820s to 1930s, but in America many practitioners developed and preferred the higher dilutions. This trend became especially exemplified by James Tyler Kent and dominated US homeopathy from the 1850s until its demise in the 1940s."

There are a bunch of vague references in these sentences. It is not clear if “This was the dominant” refers to high potency or low. Also: “this trend” refers to what? Finally, does its demise mean demise of homeopathy or demise of “this trend”?

4) “The first symptomatic index of the homeopathic materia medica was arranged by Hahnemann. Soon after, one of his students Clemens von Bönninghausen, created the Therapautic Pocket Book, another homeopathic repertory. The first such Homeopathic Repertory was Dr. George Jahr's Repertory, published in 1835 in German and then again in 1838 in English and edited by Dr. Constantine Hering. This version was less focused on disease categories and would be the forerunner to Kent's later works. It consisted of three large volumes. Such Repertories increased in size and detail as time progressed.”

It would be less confusing if the first Homeopathic Repertory was mentioned first.

5) The paragraph “Medical and scientific analysis” and the next one “higher dilutions” say the same thing in part.

I believe that the first paragraph is kind of a summary. I didn't think it was too repetitive. OrangeMarlin 03:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC) - I'll read it again. Wanderer57

6) The editors of the Canada and Mexico articles will be surprised to find they are now part of Australia. Wanderer57 02:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You obviously weren't keeping up with the news. Australia invaded Canada last week. They defended themselves with hockey sticks, but alas, it was quick. It was so quick you might have missed it. OrangeMarlin 03:23, 4 October 2007 (UTC) - I gotta get away from the computer more. Wanderer57

Just Wondering

"As well, since water will has been in contact with millions of different substances through its history, critics point out that any glass of water is therefore an extreme dilution of almost any conceivable substance, and so by drinking water one would, according to homeopathic principles, receive treatment for every imaginable condition."

This quote from the article brings to mind a question. The prior history of the water used in dilution seems to be relevant. Where do homeopaths obtain water to use in the dilution and succussion process?

(Likewise for any other liquid used for dilution.)

I don't see an answer to this in the article. Wanderer57 13:04, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

It's an excellent question. If you don't get an answer here, you might try over at the Reference Desk. Cheers, TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer is that this is pseudoscience, and pseudoscience ignores minor issues that are logical problems with the theory. In real science, that would be an issue that would probably blow the whole theory out of the water...pun intended. OrangeMarlin —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer is that potenziation is more than dilution. The dilution must be interspersed with succussion (roughly, shaking). (That's the answer, but then you can ask what the difference is between a waterfall and a potenziation machine that runs continuously. Sooner or later you still hit the pseudoscience.) --Art Carlson 19:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

This is why Heinz instructs you to shake the bottle before use. Otherwise you would get unpotentized ketchup, which tastes quite different. Tim Vickers 20:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

If I had only known. Now, precisely how many shakes does it take? I want to make sure I get the best flavor. OrangeMarlin 21:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Art. I wonder if the turbulence that water encounters going through a pump in a water treatment plant is strong enough to cause succussion.

I am not sure everyone is treating this subject with the gravity it deserves. Wanderer57 22:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, we are giving it precisely the gravity it deserves. OrangeMarlin 00:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources Interpretation and counter critisism.

Here are some fragments from the cited references and its interpretation in the article. Everybody could draw his/her own conclusions.

Article’s interpretation. 1. More recent controlled clinical trials on homeopathy have shown poor results, showing a slight to no difference between homeopathic remedies and placebo.

Cited reference

a b c Questions and Answers About Homeopathy. National Institutes of Health. This section summarizes results from (1) individual clinical trials (research studies in people) and (2) broad analyses of groups of clinical trials. The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory. In some trials, homeopathy appeared to be no more helpful than a placebo; in other studies, some benefits were seen that the researchers believed were greater than one would expect from a placebo.f Appendix I details findings from clinical trials. Systematic reviews and meta-analyses take a broader look at collections of a set of results from clinical trials.g Recent examples of these types of analyses are detailed in Appendix II. In sum, systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven treatment for any medical condition. Two groups of authors listed in Appendix II found some positive evidence in the groups of studies they examined, and they did not find this evidence to be explainable completely as placebo effects (a third group found 1 out of 16 trials to have some added effect relative to placebo). Each author or group of authors criticized the quality of evidence in the studies. Examples of problems they noted include weaknesses in design and/or reporting, choice of measuring techniques, small numbers of participants, and difficulties in replicating results. A common theme in the reviews of homeopathy trials is that because of these problems and others, it is difficult or impossible to draw firm conclusions about whether homeopathy is effective for any single clinical condition.

Article interpretation. 2. Early meta-analyses investigating homeopathic remedies showed slightly positive results among the studies examined, however such studies have warned that it was impossible to draw conclusions due to low methodological quality and the unknown role of publication bias in the studies reviewed.

The medical effectiveness of homeopathy has been studied in detail since at least the 1980s. All large studies showing homeopathy to be effective for medical purposes have been methodologically flawed, and earlier studies showing positive results have been questioned.

Cited reference (pay attention to the added adjective and the omitted sentence at the end.)

Clinical trials of homoeopathy.Kleijnen J, Knipschild P, ter Riet G.Department of Epidemiology and Health Care Research, University of Limburg, Maastricht, The Netherlands. RESULTS--In 14 trials some form of classical homoeopathy was tested and in 58 trials the same single homoeopathic treatment was given to patients with comparable conventional diagnosis. Combinations of several homoeopathic treatments were tested in 26 trials; isopathy was tested in nine trials. Most trials seemed to be of very low quality, but there were many exceptions. The results showed a positive trend regardless of the quality of the trial or the variety of homeopathy used. Overall, of the 105 trials with interpretable results, 81 trials indicated positive results whereas in 24 trials no positive effects of homoeopathy were found. The results of the review may be complicated by publication bias, especially in such a controversial subject as homeopathy. CONCLUSIONS--At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homeopathy, but only by means of well-performed trials.

3. Article

In 2005 The Lancet medical journal published a meta-analysis of 110 placebo-controlled homeopathy trials and 110 matched conventional-medicine trials based upon the Swiss government's Program for Evaluating Complementary Medicine, or PEK. The study concluded that its findings were compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homeopathy are nothing more than placebo effects.

Is the following criticism included in the article?

“The report published in the Lancet on homeopathy on 26 August has been questioned by the Faculty of Homeopathy - the professional body that brings together GPs and hospital doctors who also practice homeopathy. Dr Peter Fisher, Clinical Director of the Royal Homeopathic Hospital, London said: "Having read this report, the figures do not stack up. The much-trumpeted conclusion about homeopathy being only a placebo is based on not 110 clinical trials, but just eight. My suspicion is that this report is being selective to try to discredit homeopathy." --Sm565 18:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

You want me to add in the fact that the lancet analysis isn't without it's own criticism? Wikidudeman 14:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes thank you. I think it needs some more weight - almost similar to the Lancet statement. You could use that (I think) Dr Peter Fisher, Clinical Director of the Royal Homeopathic Hospital argued that this report is being selective to try to discredit homeopathy." citing the article. Something like that. --Sm565 17:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

3 questions.

1.I think that both negative and positive trials on Homeopathy’s effectiveness should be included. . At this point only negative trials are included which are not all metanalyses and some editors refuse to add the positive ones. Is this a NPOV?

In my opinion it is a violation of NPOV. I have attempted to add double blind placebo controlled studies with the hope that any criticisms which tend to debunk them would also be provided as appropriate. The omission of these studies altogether is pure suppression and indefensible. Whig 04:43, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

2.Of the three meta analyses one is heavily criticized for being selective and the interpretation of the other is problematic (see above). The other are negative trials. Shouldn’t the editors remove them for the sake of consistency (if they don’t want to add the positives )keeping only the metaanalysis?

(It was Tim Vicker's suggestion which I dont find it ideal "My personal viewpoint is that if experts have assessed the literature in a review or meta-analysis then summarising the results of such reviews is a better way of approaching controversial subjects than simply picking a set of positive and negative trials ourselves".

3.Homeopathy’s objections to the placebo randomized trials method (as not always be the best tool for testing homeopathy) should be included, briefly and sufficiently explained and -of course- strictly criticized using the mainstream scientific criteria. Isn't it inappropriate to exclude this important homeopathic view and its appropriate criticism (by the mainstream science) from an encyclopedia article on Homeopathy? --Sm565 18:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments on sm565 questions

Could someone please explain what this means: "The other negative trials are original research." (quote from point #2 above.) Thanks. Wanderer57 19:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I wanted to say positive and negative trials. --Sm565 19:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

1. All relevant trials should be mentioned regardless of their findings.

2. I'm not sure what this question is asking.

3. We've discussed this before. If Homeopaths criticize placebo controlled trials then there at least has to be some sort of reasoning behind this or else it can't be added. We can't simply say "Though it should be mentioned that homeopaths object to the validity of placebo randomized trials" without adding in "because...".Wikidudeman 14:25, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy in Canada

I separated out Canada and Mexico from Australia. That change lasted about six minutes till they were merged again

After separating out the part on Canada, and before it was merged again, I read it more carefully. Ugh! Here is the beginning of the Canada piece for reference:

"In Canada, a study detailing the use of alternative medicines by children in Quebec found that 11 % of the sample of 1911 children used alternative medicines and 25 % of those who did use alternative medicines used homeopathy. The study also pointed out that homeopathy is more commonly used in children in Canada than in adults, 19 % of whom used alternative medicine used homeopathy."

Questions relating to this:

1) The statistics compare children in Quebec to adults in Canada; which used to be called comparing apples and oranges. Also, the percentage of adults who use "alternative medicines" is not given. Is the conclusion that homeopathy is more commonly used in children than in adults warranted? Can any useful conclusion be taken from these statistics?

Doesn't matter. It's just there to show approximately how many people in Canada use homeopathy. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Terminology:

2) Is homeopathy an alternative medicine OR alternative therapy OR some other term?

There is medicine and there's...something else. There's no alternative medicine. Best term is quackery or pseudoscience, but that's used in the article. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's your opinion. In Misplaced Pages, there is such a thing as alternative medicine. Whig 05:16, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the most widely understood meaning of "medicine" is "a substance or preparation used in treating disease", as in "that medicine tastes awful" or "if you take your medicine without kicking daddy, I will give you a candy". To someone with this understanding, I think "alternative medicine" is liable to be confusing. Wanderer57 19:07, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

That's absurd, Wanderer. Whig 20:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

3) Which is better? Homeopathy is used in children OR on children OR by children?

4) Is homeopathy used in/on/by children, OR is it practised on children? "Used" suggests a decision to use was made by the children.

The sentence structure needs work, but I wonder first if there is any point to keeping this stuff.

(1911 was coded 1911. An interesting link, which I removed.)

Apparently you should read WP:MOS. Linking dates is appropriate. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Except in this case, 1911 is the number of children. It is a fig., not a date. Wanderer57

Finally, the article switches between Homeopathy and homeopathy. Let's pick one. Feedback please. Wanderer57 00:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the answer to your question. OrangeMarlin 00:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

It's just a noun so should be in lower case. The article on drugs doesn't call them "Drugs" in the middle of sentences. Tim Vickers 00:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources Interpretation #2

Article states:

Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial for ….. dementia,[6

Source says:McCarney R, Warner J, Fisher P, Van Haselen R (2003). "Homeopathy for dementia". Cochrane database of systematic reviews (Online) (1): CD003803

REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: In view of the absence of evidence it is not possible to comment on the use of homeopathy in treating dementia. The extent of homeopathic prescribing for people with dementia is not clear and so it is difficult to comment on the importance of conducting trials in this area.

I think that this is a mistake since the source does not really support its sentence.

So I will edit it, I m thinking of removing the word dementia for now. Any objections? Best to all. --Sm565 03:09, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"absence of evidence" => "found no evidence". Sounds like an accurate paraphrase to me. --Art Carlson 07:21, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Art Carlson is right. The McCarney et al. found no evidence that supports the contention that homeopathy helps dementia, thus this is the same thing as "absence of evidence". An absence of something means that something isn't there. It wasn't found. This doesn't mean that Homeopathy doesn't help dementia, It just means that the studies found no evidence that it does. Which is what the article says. Wikidudeman 14:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

How does the phrase it is not possible to comment not exclude the study from being used either as positive or as negative?

They concluded MAIN RESULTS: There were no studies that fulfilled the criteria for inclusion and no data to present REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS:In view of the absence of evidence it is not possible to comment on the use of homeopathy in treating dementia.

Using only "Found no evidence" implies that one looks into data for something but one finds no evidence in this data to support or not the hyphothesis ( that homeopathy works for example ). They state "No data to present " which means they have nothing to look into so their final statement is "It is not possible to comment". How can they make it more clear? Best. --Sm565 15:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that we should change the wording to read "Evidence was found that homeopathy is not beneficial" for the other conditions listed? --Art Carlson 16:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes of course. if you make sure that the study states that.I think we should be precise and report exactly what the studies say.But I think at this point no data means - no comment ( which is what they state ) --Sm565 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I think there is no other objection and we agree.--Sm565 18:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

My two cents

Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek, ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a form of alternative medicine with metaphysical underpinnings, first elaborated in the eighteenth century, widely popular in the nineteenth century, decreasingly popular in the twentieth century, and still maintaining a following today, though among just a small minority. It has been widely and vigorously criticized by scientists as baseless and ineffective.

Homeopathy is based on a vitalist philosophy, which sees the underlying causes of sickness as imbalances in a hypothetical vital force. The remedies are formulated to "treat like with like": substances are chosen which, in large quantities, would cause symptoms similar to those of a presenting illness, but are then administered in extremely diluted form. In fact, in many common homeopathic dilutions no molecules of the original substance are likely to remain, a fact which is central to criticism of the tradition by physical and biological scientists.

Homeopathy was first conceived in the late 18th century by German physician Samuel Hahnemann, who noted some similarity of the symptoms created by giving undiluted cinchona bark extract to healthy individuals, to those of malaria (which the bark was conventionally used to treat). Hahnemann concluded that, to be effective, a drug must produce the same sorts of symptoms in healthy individuals as those experienced by the patient with the illness that the drug is supposed to treat. From this reasoning, a series of substances were selected whose administration created symptoms in patients similar to those they were suffering from. The original substance is then repeatedly diluted, and, at each stage of the dilution, the solution is shaken. Finished homeopathic remedies contain few or even no molecules of the original substance, but homeopaths contend that the shaking causes an imprint (or "memory") of the diluted substance upon the vehicle (the diluting water or alcohol itself). Proponents of homeopathy claim that homeopathic treatments can harmonize and re-balance a theorized vital force in the body, thus restoring health.

Claims for the medical efficacy of homeopathic treatments, however, have been roundly rejected as unsupported by the collected weight of scientific and clinical studies. Homeopathic philosophy has been characterized as strikingly at odds with the laws of chemistry and physics, since it postulates that extreme dilution actually makes drugs more powerful (by enhancing, homeopaths believe, their "spirit-like medicinal powers"). Scientists have asserted that there is no evidence of water or alcohol retaining any sort of imprint of a substance that was once dissolved in it, and that any positive effects of homeopathic treatments must be due simply to the placebo effect. Furthermore, some health advocates have accused homeopathic practitioners of giving false hope to patients who might otherwise seek conventional treatments that have withstood testing by the scientific method. Many have pointed to meta-analyses which — they contend — confirm the fact that any benefits of the medicine are due to the placebo effect; they have criticized apparently positive studies of homeopathy as being flawed in design. These findings, they say — along with the common practice of homeopaths to proscribe their patients from receiving conventional medical treatments for a given malady while being treated for it with homeopathy — argue for labeling homeopathy as a brand of quackery whose use might ultimately even endanger the patient's health.

Friarslantern 20:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a straw man description of homeopathy. Whig 20:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Explain! This statement makes no sense to me. Friarslantern 21:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

• The paragraphs are too short and I see no reason for their formulation. Why is the first one split from the second one?
• The "widely popular in the nineteenth century, decreasingly popular in the twentieth century, and still maintaining a following today" part doesn't read like an encyclopedia. It's part of the first sentence which is way too long.
• The entire lead is difficult to read. If I didn't understand what Homeopathy was then I would probably not know much more after reading that lead.
• Many of the statements aren't referenced. Due to the conflicts, everything must be properly referenced.
• Not many people are actually disputing the lead except until just recently and I don't see how this formulation would solve those specific disputes. Wikidudeman 23:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This LEAD is much much too long and has way too much detail. I also think it does not succinctly describe the main points. --Filll 23:50, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

OK here is a new version of it. Short, I think, and to the point, and neutral. I'm working on it at User:Friarslantern/HomeoIntroDraft.

Friarslantern 01:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I like this version much better. It seems to be fair. I am still reading about homeopathy in order to better understand it, so I cannot vouch for its accuracy in all parts. Whig 08:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Two bad edits?

Adam – rather than just label an edit as a “bad edit”, please explain what you see as wrong with the edit which added the bolded words to this sentence in the first paragraph?

“Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, in hopes of stimulating the body to respond and remove the symptom.”

To me, the last part is helpful as it summarizes the chief point of doing homeopathy.

I’m quite prepared to listen to suggestions of a better way to word it, but I think the intention was sound. Wanderer57 21:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

These two edits were bad for a number of reasons, which I described in my edit summary. The "stimulating the body to respond" sentence is textbook original research. Homeopathy denies any sort of germ theory in that it does not allow for external forces to produce disease in a healthy individual. Only a "disturbance" in the "vital energy" of a patient can produce adverse symptoms. There is simply no room in homeopathic theory for any sort of physiological response. Leaving aside the fact that this assertion was added with absolutely no reference or discussion of a "stimulated response" in the rest of the article, this is a baldfaced attempt to legitimize the topic by vaguely associating it with a vaccine-type mechanism.

The second edit is also unacceptable because it obfuscates the lead argument that a sufficiently diluted solution cannot contain any of the original molecule, and ignores the fact that homeopathic solutions that are not diluted out of existence don't work either. Cheers, Skinwalker 21:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker is totally right. The idea that Homeopathic remedies cause the body to "respond to a symptom" to remove it from the body would suggest some sort of outside agent inflicting itself upon the body which is contrary to homeopathic philosophy. As Skinwalker mentioned, Homeopaths see sickness as disturbances of some "vital energy" which causes symptoms. Homeopaths prescribe small doses of substance that cause similar side effects in hopes of "canceling out" the symptoms and getting rid of the disturbance. Wikidudeman 23:17, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both for the feedback. I am concerned with the first of the two edits Skinwalker mentioned, which (for reference) is about the sentence:

“Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, in hopes of stimulating the body to respond and remove the symptom.”

My edit was to add the words “in hopes of......remove the symptom”, (borrowed from a previous editor) and to make the next sentence, which talks about the early history of the subject, the start of a new paragraph.

This sentence says what (we think) a homeopathist does without indicating what the purpose is. This is incomplete information. If, as you say, “in hopes of stimulating the body to respond and remove the symptom” is technically wrong, (and I’m in no position to argue the point), how should the sentence be completed?

“Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution, in order to_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.”

I think, in fairness, an indication of the intent is needed here (even though some editors may consider the whole enterprise fruitless or even fraudulent.)

Since the following sentence talks about the early history of the subject, it does not answer the question of the intent. Wanderer57 23:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Skinwalker is not correct. Homeopathy "does not allow for external forces to produce disease in a healthy individual" is entirely false. From the Organon, Section 64:

During the primary action of the artificial morbific agents (medicines) on our healthy body, as seen in the following examples, our vital force seems to conduct itself merely in a passive (receptive) manners, and appears, so to say, compelled to permit the impressions of the artificial power acting from without to take place in it and thereby its state of health; it then, however, appears to rouse itself again, as it were, and to develop (A) the exact opposite condition of health (counteraction, secondary action ) to this effect (primary action) produced upon it, if there be such an opposite, and that in as great a degree as was the effect (primary action) of the artificial morbific agent on it, and proportionate to its own energy; - or (B) if there be not in nature a state exactly the opposite of the primary action, it appears to endeavor to indifferentiate itself, that is, to make its superior power available in the extinction of the change wrought in it from without (by the medicine), in the place of which it substitutes its normal state (secondary action, curative action).

Whig 01:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

As to the second edit he removed, his claim that the small amount of substance in a homeopathic dose causes it to be ineffective does not mitigate the fact that a small amount of substance is present in dilution or trituration. Currently, the article imagines that the substance must magically vanish due to dilution, that is a violation of the laws of physics. Whig 01:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

At the highest dilutions, there's a ridiculously miniscule chance that a molecule remains, because it's been diluted so far. You'd have to drink a sphere the size of the solar system to have a reasonable chance of getting just one molecule. This is because there are only a certain number of molecules in the original preparation. Adam Cuerden 02:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

That may as well be true at highest dilutions which could be arbitrarily large, of course. Nothing in dilution or trituration would cause the substance to be molecularly or atomically taken apart, at any rate, but we can surely say that if a substance is divided over 30C there are still likely to be a very small number of particles of the original substance in a dose. Whig 02:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

30C is 1 in 10^60. We can estimate the number of original atoms using Avogado's constant, which tells us there are 6.022 x 10^23 atoms in a mole of substance. A mole of a substance has a weight measured in grams (the number of grams is based on its molecular weight, and hus can't be less than 1). Even if we presume that we start with a kilogram of the substance - that's less, perhaps substantially less, than a thousand moles - there is still less than a 1 in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 chance that a single molecule remains in a litre of the original. Any dilution greater than about 1 in 10^24 has this problem. Adam Cuerden 05:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Accepting your math for the moment, what dilution would 10^24 correspond to? Is 6C still too dilute? Whig 06:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

About 12C, though the maths vary a bit depending on the amount in the original, and how much of the final remedy is actually taken. Given the size of homeopathic pills, I suspect that it'd actually be a little lower - 10C or so. However, remember, this is for there being a statistical likelihood of one molecule being present. If we're looking for, say, a part per billion - which is about the minimum limit of what could actually be detected - that's at most 4.5C. Adam Cuerden 07:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

So we must express very clearly that in a 6C potency (which is a common homeopathic dose) there is clearly some small quantity of the original substance. It has not disappeared regardless of its detectability with your equipment at that concentration, because you know that physics won't allow it to have vanished. Whig 08:54, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, we don't. It says "at many common homeopathic dilutions". That's a true description, and your random quibbles can be ruthlessly ignored as the POV-pushing OR they are. Adam Cuerden 16:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You don't have the right to ruthlessly ignore facts you don't like, Adam. Whig 19:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

And I have never heard of a modern homeopath that denies the germ theory of disease. What a straw man. Whig 01:49, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

George Vithoulkas. As cited and referenced in the article. Adam Cuerden 02:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The article says he thought the antibiotic treatment of syphilis would cause secondary and tertiary problems. Nowhere does it say he denies the germ theory of disease, but perhaps he has done so. You have failed to make a valid citation. Whig 02:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying. Tell me what you think of the clarification I just added. Wikidudeman 23:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

References interpretation #3

Article states:

Systematic reviews conducted by other researchers found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial for osteoarthritis,

Source says:

The authors conclude that the small number of randomized clinical trials conducted to date, although favoring homeopathic treatment, do not allow a firm conclusion as to the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies in the treatment of patients with osteoarthritis. The clinical evidence appears promising, however, and more research into this area seems warranted.

So the article should state the exacts findings:

Studies have shown that although favoring homeopathic treatment, the study does not allow a firm conclusion as to the effectiveness of homeopathic remedies in the treatment of patients with osteoarthritis. The clinical evidence appears promising, however, and more research into this area seems warranted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sm565 (talk • contribs) 05:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Article states: Systematic reviews conducted by the Cochrane Collaboration found no evidence that homeopathy is beneficial for asthma,

Reference:

RESULTS: Six trials with a total of 556 people were included. These trials were all placebo-controlled and double-blind, but of variable quality. They used different homeopathic treatments which precluded quantitative pooling of results for the primary outcome. Standardised treatments in these trials are unlikely to represent common homeopathic practice, where treatment tends to be individualised. No trial reported a significant difference on validated symptom scales. There were conflicting results in terms of lung function between the studies. There has been only a limited attempt to measure a 'package of care' effect (i.e., the effect of the medication as well as the consultation, which is considered a vital part of individualised homeopathic practice). REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: There is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma. As well as randomised trials, there is a need for observational data to document the different methods of homeopathic prescribing and how patients respond. This will help to establish to what extent people respond to a 'package of care' rather than the homeopathic intervention alone.

They clearly say that they could not actualy test the homeopathic idea. To do so they need observational data and well designed studies. Therefore they concluded that there is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma.

I m almost certain everybody agrees that the sentece in the article should reflect exaclty this.Objections? Best wishes to all.--Sm565 06:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Eh, let's just cut the damn thing. Adam Cuerden 16:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Molecules

Much of the above talk about straw man germ theory and dilutions is theoretical nonsense. Nobody knows what matter is or what happens when something is diluted. Hahnemann and his followers believed he had hit upon a genuine new discovery about matter in solution. Who is really to deny this? Chemistry and the molecular theory is merely a model of how matter seems to behave; we do not know all the answers and to claim we do is dishonest. Maybe some molecules do remain at 30c who knows? To deny this is to assume that the avogadro limit is absolute when in reality it is merely an average. On average no molecules remain after 10 -23 but in reality nobody knows. Nor does anybody know what the shaking does. Violent shaking of the solution is certainly regarded by homeopaths as crucial to the potentiation process. Regarding germ theory homeopaths may or may not acceopt the theory but what is clear is that they regard the cause of disease as an internal matter within the organism and no external agent is regarded as that powerful except insofar as it can impact internally upon the vital force. Kent said forget the bacteria and fix the vital force. It says it all. The vital force is the key concept in homeopathic philsosophy because it 'explains' so much about how these remedies work and also how folks behave when treated for sickness and how they respond to the remedies. Most of the folks here have never used homeopathy, are not medically trained, know little about close observation of the human subject in sickness and cure so how can they say either way? These issues can only be fully explained when you have a degree of experience in such matters. Being a very sceptical 'spectator' to these matters does not really allow one to fully understand how it all works. Unless you engage with the subject then how can you udnerstand it? That goes for any subject. Scoffing and being full of disbelief wanting desperately to disprove something ...well how can these attitudes allow an unbiased understanding to occur? Same goes for anything alien to our usual understanding. However, there are issues about efficacy and trials but hopefully new trials will be better devised and reveal more interesting outcomes. just a few thoughts thanks Peter morrell 06:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Peter, I think you have a similar perspective to my own, which I would call zetetic. I am currently reading the Organon in order to understand the idea behind homeopathy as expressed by its original detailer. Currently I am up to Section 100, which says (in reference to those who claim that "homeopathy rejects the germ theory of disease"):

In investigating the totality of the symptoms of epidemic and sporadic diseases it is quite immaterial whether or not something similar has ever appeared in the world before under the same or any other name. The novelty or peculiarity of a disease of that kind makes no difference either in the mode of examining or of treating it, as the physician must any way regard to pure picture of every prevailing disease as if it were something new and unknown, and investigate it thoroughly for itself, if he desire to practice medicine in a real and radical manner, never substituting conjecture for actual observation, never taking for granted that the case of disease before him is already wholly or partially known, but always carefully examining it in all its phases; and this mode of procedure is all the more requisite in such cases, as a careful examination will show that every prevailing disease is in many respects a phenomenon of a unique character, differing vastly from all previous epidemics, to which certain names have been falsely applied - with the exception of those epidemics resulting from a contagious principle that always remains the same, such as smallpox, measles, etc.

Clearly the science of modern microbiology did not exist when he was writing, but he accepted contagion. Why are people spreading disinformation about homeopathy? Whig 07:33, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Holy cow. These rants are a little uncalled for. If you investigated, you would find several PhDs and MDs among the other editors here. We have experts in statistical analysis of data. We have mathematicians. Several others have used homeopathic remedies, myself included.

And there is a phenomenal volume of evidence for the "molecular theory" and the "germ theory". We have even imaged atoms.

I dispute just about everything written above. I could go through it point by point, but this might add to the trouble here. Please, try to not engage in this kind of grandstanding and vioation of WP:SOAP.--Filll 14:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You can dispute whatever you like and who really cares what folks like you think of it from your theory armchairs. Manifestly, you don't know much about homoepathy that is plain to see for all the endless talk on these talk pages...MDs PhDs so what? utterly irrelevant to the field of experience and true empiricism in which homeopathy exists. You just demonstrated the vastness of your ignorance, Filll. Grandstanding? are you serious? for goodness sake what utter nonsense. Peter morrell 14:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter I would remind you of how close you have come repeatedly to being banned and blocked here for uncivil behavior. It is only because of your special knowledge that you were even permitted to be in Misplaced Pages, frankly. So please try to restrain yourself.--Filll 15:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

OK sorry if it seemed I was growling at you Filll, it was in fact a mere squeak. Talking of uncivil behaviour of course reminds me to say that there are abroad in WP far worse offenders than I, mostly on your side of the fence, who seem to 'get away with it' unpunished on a daily basis and with everyone they choose to hurl it at. Pot calling the kettle black, no doubt? best wishes Peter morrell 15:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, well not sure about disinformation. Certainly many garbage articles exist that are factually and historically inaccurate and which contain misinterpretations and these get recycled within the scientific community as facts which they are clearly not. It suits big business and pharmaceutical multinationals to disparage homeopathy in every way possible and at every turn. Always that has been true. It also suits science because it disbelieves in the power of infinitesimal doses on THEORETICAL grounds alone. However, science is rather simplistic & composed mostly of reductionist models that only approximate to reality at best. In any case Hahnemann was a good observer and the Organon an evolving work in progress, and like a scientist's notebook, is composed of two things, as any science notebook should be: observations and deductions, all of them provisional and always revisable in the light of new experience. In this crucial sense homeopathy is entirely a truly empirical science because even its burden of 'theory' is provisional and was constantly revised in his lifetime as a corpus of ideas NOT as a dogma. Though I know folks think different, that is a more accurate statement of his position. He was passionate about his declarations but ultimately each of them was pulverised, revised and replaced in the light of new observations. If that is not the attitude of a good scientist then what is? Peter morrell 07:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Our science of the very small gets into the subject of quantum chromodynamics, molecular theory is inadequate. Whig 09:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's complete bollocks and original research. Quantum mechanics, funnily enough, is defined by a series of mathematical equations that calculate probabilities. It doesn't just automatically justify whatever stupidity you want it to. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam, you are nonserious. I have corrected you repeatedly. Whig 18:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

A nice attempt at dismissal, I'm sure, but you can't just make up stuff and expect it to go into the article. Adam Cuerden 18:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I did not such thing. I made good, conscientious edits to the article, which I provided ample citation, and which you deleted and have never bothered to respond to. Whig 19:26, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

1.The fact that scientists cannot explain today the effect of the (homeopathic) substance or to detect its mechanism is not a proof that it does not exist.It has some effect and this is clearly shown even in some of the studies which are cited in he article - if we decide to really read them. Not to mention the studies which have clearly shown positive effects but they are not included at this point for unknown reasons.

Yeah, they aren't included because of hundreds of studies, you're choosing unreliable ones that show slight results, then talking them up into great justifications for homeopathy. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The "Slight results" is added by the editors. Whovever wants to know what the studies say please click here and compare.

2. I think that the statement 'The scientific community asserts there is no evidence that water or alcohol retain any memory of a substance and that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect." is not supported.

Are you asserting that the references given do not reject the efficacy of homeopathy, or that the authors (NIH, NHS, AMA) are not representative of the scientific community? --Art Carlson 09:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

He's asserting that all criticism should be removed. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam you realize -of course- you might discredit yourself with this kind of statements.How will you argue that you views are objective and you are qualified to moderate a discussion misrepresenting the others people opinion? I wrote many times that mainstream critisim should be included and even extented.

Studies, MDs, scientists and sources you have used in the present article ( BBC and LAncet) are asserting that inside the scientific community there are different views. Thats why I keep mentioning the WHO draft supporting Homeopathy (which could be right or wrong) and its critisism - as a proof (not just evidence) of this controversy.Best wishes.--Sm565 18:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We are talking about the CONSENSUS - that is, the majority, widely agreed upon view. Gind some sources equal in weight to the ones we have that say that most scientists support homeopathy, and we'll talk. Adam Cuerden 18:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

There is not CONSENSUS on this. Even the references you used state that ...."The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory".....

In sum, systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven treatment for any medical condition. Two groups of authors listed in Appendix II found some positive evidence in the groups of studies they examined, and they did not find this evidence to be explainable completely as placebo effects (a third group found 1 out of 16 trials to have some added effect relative to placebo). Each author or group of authors criticized the quality of evidence in the studies. Do you assume that there is any consensus ? .--Sm565 20:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I mean the second part of the sentence. The scientific community includes MDs, researchers and hospitals which practice homeopathy everywhere in the world. Even in the World Health Organization there was a major controversy 2 years ago (on an unpublished -so far draft- which favored homeopathy) covered by BBC and the Lancet .

The WHO draft again? Yawn. --Art Carlson 09:53, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, for god's sake. Do you even know what the word "draft" means? Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Therefore the phrase the scientific community asserts that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect is inaccurate. It is a significant part of the scientific community which believes that and we could talk about its exact size. --Sm565 08:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

These are ludicrous statements. There is essentially no competent scientist that would agree that there is any evidence whatsoever for homeopathy. There is no competent scientist that would assert that there is a valid theoretical underpinning to homeopathy. This sort of WP:SOAP is uncalled for.--Filll 14:32, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll, please, again, cool it, man. No need to be so serious. We get the picture. Then again who really cares what scientists think? competent or otherwise. Peter morrell 15:38, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

We are only interested in the views of competent scientists at Misplaced Pages. We have no interest in the ravings of quacks. It is not permissible to reject academic consensus in such a manner, because this is what Misplaced Pages is built to reflect. Moreschi 15:56, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Are these competent scientists? If no please explain why.

best--Sm565 22:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC) If someone is a professor of complementary medicine, it is not clear if one is a competent scientist or not. However, the arthritis study was inconclusive, and had too small a dataset to be useful in any case. It is not something easy to measure in any case. The allergy study had only 51 participants, and the results were mixed by my reading of it. And this is balanced by immense studies with thousands upon thousands of participants and metastudies with many more showing no evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy whatsoever. To be useful, not only must the results be statistically significant, but they must be repeatable. Probably several times, given the controversial nature of this field. And as far as I know, nothing close to this has ever happened. So it is pseudoscience, pure and simple.--Filll 22:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

For the evaluation of medical papers look above. Statistics metanalysesis and are also another field you must have an expertise. It is not our job to do that here according to wikipedia of course.

"If someone is a professor of complementary medicine, it is not clear if one is a competent scientist or not" Well.....click here . ........no comment. --Sm565 23:02, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If someone is a professor of complementary medicine, it is not clear if one is a competent scientist or not. However, the arthritis study was inconclusive, and had too small a dataset to be useful in any case. It is not something easy to measure in any case. The allergy study had only 51 participants, and the results were mixed by my reading of it. And this is balanced by immense studies with thousands upon thousands of participants and metastudies with many more showing no evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy whatsoever. To be useful, not only must the results be statistically significant, but they must be repeatable. Probably several times, given the controversial nature of this field. And as far as I know, nothing close to this has ever happened. So it is pseudoscience, pure and simple.--Filll 22:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, if you look at WP:NPOV/FAQ, you will find the helpful statement "Pseudoscience is a social phenomenon and therefore significant, but it should not obfuscate the description of the main views, and any mention should be proportionate and represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Even some of the references which are cited now in the article they favor homeopathic treament. Even the cited metanalyses find positive evidence and suggest better designed studies to explore. I dont think they would not do that if they considered homeopathy as a sort of quackery After reading carefully what they say- please explain why the above scientists are incompetent including the ones in the article and why they are not part of the scientific commnunity. If you give a rational explanation then we can keep the term scientific community....otherwhise it must change to a big part of scientific community...or whatever the size is.Best to all.--Sm565 17:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter Fisher is not a scientist, he's a homeopath. As for the other two, read the full text. The BMJ one says "Because of the exacting screening, strict qualification criteria, and the prospectively defined requirement to stop enrolment before the pollen season, we did not recruit the number of patients that the power calculation had estimated we required." - in other words, it's statistically worthless. The Rheumatology one says "This study was designed as a feasibility or pilot study rather than a definitive clinical trial". Both, therefore, are worthless. Adam Cuerden 18:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

These are examples of why homeopathy is valid? A study by psychiatrists about fibromyalgia, a vague complaint with no good diagnosis? A study with only 62 people in it? No good way to measure the outcomes? An uncomfirmed study not repeated by peers? This is pure nonsense. Sorry. A comment by a pseudoscientist that his field is not pseudoscience? Please...--Filll 19:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Dr. Fisher is a respected....scientist I dont think that anybody here in this discussion is qualified to evaluate medical published papers unless someone wants to take the risk to ridicule himself.Even if someone were qualified it is not appropriate to do so in this space. The editor s job here is not to evaluate the studies but to set some criteria to decide what is a reliable source and report the results and conclusions as stated without changing them - the way it is done now. ALL the studies above qualify according to the wikipedia's criteria. Therefore the editors have to include them reporting their findings negative or positive. Critisism from valid sourses should be added if exists. There is another option which TimVickers suggested "My personal viewpoint is that if experts have assessed the literature in a review or meta-analysis then summarising the results of such reviews is a better way of approaching controversial subjects than simply picking a set of positive and negative trials ourselves." I msure Tim would not object that Critisism from valid sourses should be added if exists. These are the only serious options if you want a NPOV article. Best--Sm565 19:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Note

Dr Peter Fisher MA MB BChir FRCP FFHom is a Cambridge medical graduate and Physician to the Queen since 2001. To say he is not a scientist is to say a medical degree from Cambridge is not a science degree. Please amend or retract your comment. thank you Peter morrell 06:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What exactly is the dispute about here? What would solve it? Please clarify in brief explanations what exactly the dispute is. Thanks. Wikidudeman 16:18, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't encourage the trolls. Adam Cuerden 16:36, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just one comment Adam: Peter, this shows you to be the either utterly nonserious or seriously confuddled, "Nor does anybody know what the shaking does." This, "...who really cares what scientists think?" speaks to the very ignorance you accuse others of. Yes, Peter, if it will make you happy, all existence and reality is just a metaphysical playground and via modern day alchemy we can find the truth. •Jim62sch• 16:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Outside view: Homeopathy and neutrality

It seems there are three actual separate issues confused above.

• The description of homeopathy is one thing. There are descriptions of how homeopathists see it, and descriptions of how scientists see it, and so on. These are all descriptions. A description of homeopathy is going to draw on multiple views. It will describe what it is, and its concepts, structures and processes and so on, but without saying any given item is "true" or "not true" on either side. It describes.

• However, when it comes to the validation and verification aspects of homeopathy, then the main view is science, since scientific testing methodologies carry significantly more weight than other methodologies. In this area, one has to reflect the balance that the bulk of reliable sources on testing of homeopathy are those conducted by scientists.

• Likewise discussion of the theoretical basis of homeopathy is also predominantly the realm of science, which has a very good uunderstanding how molecules and reactions work. The reliable sources for theoretical underpinnings and comments on its "making sense" are predominantly going to be scientific ones. Alternative views how the world works may be notable, but are given less weight in this question.

In this manner, we can construct an article that fairly reflects both sides of a debate, with due weight.

Hope that helps.

FT2 16:44, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Of course I've been saying this for months. The article currently reflects this. Wikidudeman 17:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikidudeman, I am new to editing this article, but I do not agree with you that the article is anywhere near NPOV at present. That there is an obvious NPOV dispute cannot be unknown to you. Your defensive statements that the article is presently wonderful are not helpful. Whig 18:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you should read WP:NPOV if you're a new editor. This article is relatively close to NPOV, considering how much Pseudoscience is expressed in this article. OrangeMarlin 20:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a new editor. Thanks. Whig 20:05, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because there are disputes doesn't mean they have validity. Some people are arguing that the article is POV for homeopathy and some are arguing that it's POV against homeopathy, what do you think? You say the article is POV, How so? POV for or against homeopathy? Wikidudeman 15:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Format lead please

The lead has excessive white-space and most articles I'm aware of don't have that. Could someone please get rid of the extra whitespace Separating paragraphs in the lead? Thanks. Wikidudeman 17:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

What would be needed to fix this article

We have a bad situation here. We have two or three POV warriors that want frantically to describe Homeopathy according to some narrow criteria associated with "true believers". There are occasional other pro-homeopathy editors who visit and fight to change the view of the article. This is so annoying I would almost be ready to advocate deleting the article and blocking any efforts to create a new one in its place.

This pro-homeopathy view is contrary to all of science and medicine, which are the fields which Misplaced Pages must agree with, according to its design. If editors want a pro-homeopathy article, they will have to leave Misplaced Pages because Misplaced Pages is not the place for this kind of article. It is against the very structure of Misplaced Pages, and has no place here.

A reasonable homeopathy article will have some description of the method and its history, and have a substantial measure of material that demonstrates it is pure bunk, hoakum, quackery, dishonest nonsense and unscientific claptrap. All the way through it. In the LEAD. In the body. All the way through. Lots of links to studies that show homeopathy is unmitigated crap. So if your vision is something other than this, perhaps you do not belong here.--Filll 19:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Filll has demonstrated his bias. He would scorch earth rather than allow this article to be other than what he wants it to look like. I recommend he read WP:OWN. Whig 19:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

My POV is the same as the medical community and the scientific establishment and also in accord with what Misplaced Pages is aiming to do because of WP policies. If you do not find your views in accord with this, I think you should see that as a sign. Please read WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE --Filll 20:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Your POV is entitled to be given pre-eminent weight, Filll. That does not mean you get to exclude alternative theories. Whig 20:29, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I never said a thing about excluding alternative theories. However, by the rules of WP, they have to be presented from a mainstream perspective.--Filll 22:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

You don't actually seem to know the rules of Misplaced Pages. Whig 22:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

And how do you figure that? Let's see. You have about 1100 mainspace edits and less than 2600 total edits. I have 9300 mainspace edits and over 20300 total edits. Maybe this is one of your sockpuppet accounts and you have another account or two. But from this evidence, it seems I have at least as much idea as you do how WP runs, doesnt it?

You've already been corrected by Art Carlson. Quit arguing, you're wrong. Whig 04:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh is this the same Art Carlson who has less than 2100 mainspace edits and less than 3400 total edits? So lets see, the two of you together have less than 6000 edits, and I have more than 3 times as much as the two of you combined. Hmm...--Filll 04:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You win the high score! Whig 04:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have worked on plenty of articles that are controversial. And guess what? By the rules of WP, we present the mainstream view and give it most of the weight. We do not present fringe ideas as mainstream. We show that minority viewpoints are just that, minority viewpoints. We do not give them WP:UNDUE weight. And if something is pseudoscience, we make it clear that most people think it is pseudoscience and why. That is what is appropriate for an encyclopedia. We are not here to promote nonsense and myth and call it science. If you do not like it, you are free to go elsewhere.--Filll 04:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Keep your shirt on, Filll. Misplaced Pages is not written from a mainstream point of view, but from a neutral point of view. We can't say "Homeopathy is crap." At most we can only say "The mainstream thinks that homeopathy is crap." That's enough, too. Be cool. --Art Carlson 22:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Well actually in the case of situations like this, the mainstream gets most of the weight because of WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE.--Filll 04:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE - This page offers guidance on establishing which non-mainstream "theories" should have articles in Misplaced Pages, and to an extent how those articles should approach their subjects. - There is no question that homeopathy is notable enough to be covered in its own article.

WP:UNDUE - Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Misplaced Pages is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view. - We describe homeopathy "in great detail", and where it is "appropriate", namely in the section on studies of efficacy, we clearly present the view of the majority.

Seems clear enough. --Art Carlson 06:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

...."The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory"..... In sum, systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven treatment for any medical condition. Two groups of authors listed in Appendix II found some positive evidence in the groups of studies they examined, and they did not find this evidence to be explainable completely as placebo effects (a third group found 1 out of 16 trials to have some added effect relative to placebo). Each author or group of authors criticized the quality of evidence in the studies. This one of the citations which supports the articles view that there is a consensus that homeopathy has no effect over placebo. Do you assume that there is any consensus in this Art?. --Sm565 23:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Art, you cannot say what the mainstream thinks. You can say what certain scientists and organizations have said. Whig 22:46, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

From WP:FRINGE:

On the other hand, where existing primary sources are available, they may be carefully used in addition to secondary sources. WP:NOR strongly encourages the collection and organization of information from existing secondary sources, and allows for careful use of primary sources; such information is not "original research", but "source-based research", and is essential to writing an encyclopedia.

Please take this as my suggestion that you read the Organon of Medicine by Samuel Hahnemann in order to comment properly upon what it says. Let us make this a serious article, shall we? I'm still reading it myself. Whig 20:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I read big pieces of it. It is crap. So what?--Filll 22:13, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your most insightful and encyclopedic commentary. Whig 22:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam_Cuerden deleted the above comment. I have restored it -- now twice. It is not a personal attack. Whig 19:35, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Quackery

Homeopathy isn't controversial, nor is it a form of 'alternative medicine'. It has been debunked scientifically since it's inception, with the best in the publication 'The Memory of Water' which outlined homeopathic principles and their inherent impossibility as well as backing it up with empirically measured statistics. To give credence by using terms such as controversial, or alternative medicine, would be the equivilent of adding weasel working to say, Fairies stating that some people don't believe in them, thus indicating others do. The desperate, the profiteering, and the poorly educated are the only people who believe in alternative medicines. This should be addressed in this article most thoroughly. Jachin 22:19, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Welcome to the discussion. The desperate, the profiteering, and the poorly educated are the only people who believe in alternative medicines . You said "this should be addressed in this article most thoroughly".

This could be also added if you provide some citations . Best wishes. --Sm565 22:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just because something has been debunked doesn't mean it's not an alternative medicine or isn't controversial. Wikidudeman 15:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Another Question

This is a straight question, and I hope not an absurd one.

I know from my own experience that the practise of chiropractic has changed substantially in the last 30 years. (I do not know if this is true of all chiropractors, very likely not, but it is certainly true of some.)

Chiropractic at its best is much different than it used to be.

I'm wondering if something comparable can be said for homeopathy. Are the work and the views of Samuel Hahnemann, about 200 years ago, a fair representation of the views and practises of modern day homeopathists? Wanderer57 22:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we cannot really say what the views of homeopaths are as a single entity, only what certain homeopathic practitioners have said. Obviously, Hahnemann is a primary source, but later practitioners should also be cited. Whig 22:27, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The principles are the same but they are differences. go to vithoulkas website - is a good sourse to look into. --Sm565 22:30, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why the term Scientific community used in the article (intro) is not supported

Sorry for taking so much space - I have to summurize.

The scientific community asserts …….that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect. not only it is not supported by the references but the references themselves indicate that there is no consensus in the scientific community; furthemore there is clear evidence that a signifignat part of the scientific community strongly disagrees .

Therefore “The scientific community asserts” at the second part of the sentence should be replaced with “Many scientists assert that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect…..and others believe that Homeopathy treatment has an effect over and above placebo. What I m suggesting is consistent with what the already cited references use: many,some... others.

Here are all the sourses the editor(s) have used.

1. The source is not related with the sentence about scientifc consesus and it is one study only.

CONCLUSION: Trials of complementary therapies often have relevant methodological weaknesses. The type of weaknesses varies considerably across interventions.

2. Here it says many ....not the scientific community.

Many medical doctors and scientists do not generally accept homeopathy because its claims have not been verified to the standards of modern medicine and scientific method. Some scientists argue that homeopathy cannot work because the remedies used are so highly diluted that in many there can be none of the active substance remaining. Supporters of homeopathy counter the scientific arguments with claims for a high success rates in babies, infants, and animals. Others argue that much of the research conducted into the effectiveness of homeopathy is not representative of routine homeopathic practice and that homeopathic treatment cannot be properly tested through standard clinical means.

3. The Lancet article is criticized for being selective to discredit Homeopathy by another well-known institution, which belongs also to scientific community. One study again Not consensus again.

4. It is obvious that there is not consensus on Homeopathy according to this statement.

The results of individual, controlled clinical trials of homeopathy have been contradictory"..... In sum, systematic reviews have not found homeopathy to be a definitively proven treatment for any medical condition. Two groups of authors listed in Appendix II found some positive evidence in the groups of studies they examined, and they did not find this evidence to be explainable completely as placebo effects (a third group found 1 out of 16 trials to have some added effect relative to placebo). Each author or group of authors criticized the quality of evidence in the studies. --Sm565 03:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You still fail to understand the meaning of scientific consensus. Adam Cuerden 03:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I could agree with some of your cited references which support the sentence. You could use exactly that (#2) and I think will be NPOV. Why don't we use it? Do oyu think they are POV or inaccurate?--Sm565 04:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Censorship ?

Dear Adam

I think hidding my new suggestions and examples including my summarized arguments because you have a different point of view is unacceptable. I will escalate the incident to other administrators. Meanwhile my suggestion to the curious editors is to read and then decide.--Sm565 04:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You've made the same suggestions several dozen times, and been refuted each time. This is a waste of time. Adam Cuerden 04:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam, your behavior in this talk forum has been incredibly rude, you delete and conceal statements you disagree with and refuse to accept factual correction. Please stop trying to WP:OWN this discussion. Whig 04:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines are clear: "Do not strikeout the comments of other editors without their permission." Whig 04:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Strikeout looks like this: strikeout. It's commonly used to indicate the editor is happy with what's been done, and so withdraws their objection. It is not the same as hab/hat.

Please read the guidelines. Editing others' comments is not acceptable. Whig 04:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Which is why I haven't touched the actual text, just put it inside a collapsing template. Adam Cuerden 07:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no point continuing discussion until you can actually bring something new to the table, instead of shoving productive discussions off the talk page by repeating the same points over and over. Has someone put a message on a homeopathy forum canvassing people again? Adam Cuerden 04:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to continue discussion if you don't want to. Whig 04:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Dear Adam 1. Tell me where exactly I proposed the following exact sentence supported with the new arguments and in our discussion. .

Therefore “The scientific community asserts” at the second part of the sentence should be replaced with “Many scientists assert that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect…..and others believe that Homeopathy treatment has an effect over and above placebo. What I m suggesting is consistent with what the already cited references use: many,some... others

2. If you think that I dont bring something new why did you answer me and you did not immediately hide my old arguments?--Sm565 04:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Saying the "scientific community" is shorthand for the "overwhelming scientific consensus" which is appropriate here. I have to agree with Adam here. I see nothing new.--Filll 04:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I did not suggested "overwhelming scientific consensus" since it is not supported by the sources. I suggested that we use almost the words being used in the NHS Direct which is a cited reference in the article and "supports" the sentence. A Filll do you think they are not accurate or they are POV?--Sm565 04:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam if you find where I suggested the exact sentence supported by the above arguements a dozen times, please let me know. Thanks--Sm565 04:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

more

Please read this about science: The Faculty of Homeopathy, the professional body for doctors who practise, takes a different view, arguing that enough evidence exists for their subject to be classed as a science.

Dr Peter Fisher, spokesman, said: "We disagree strongly with the assertion that homeopathy is unscientific. There are 50 positive (and very few negative) peer-reviewed placebo-controlled trials of homeopathy.

"This is far too large a body of evidence to dismiss and warrants further investigation in an open-minded, unbiased spirit of proper scientific enquiry. Universities are just the places to lead this work." thanks Peter morrell 06:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's the job of the spokesman for the Faculty of Homeopathy to say that. The NHS, also cited in the article ("insufficient evidence of effectiveness"), is more likely to be objective. The reporter (whose bias and expertise we do not know) summarized, "In fact, there is a wide body of evidence to support that homeopathy has a therapeutic benefit but very little to suggest that this benefit is anything more than a placebo." What are we supposed to learn from this? --Art Carlson 07:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

We do not seek only the "objective" view, because we cannot say what view is more objective, or better. We can describe and characterize the debate and give the respective positions with proper citations. Whig 08:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

We're permitted to use common sense. Someguy1221 08:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No. We are required to follow NPOV. Whig 16:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No and yes. Assuming that everyone who says anything about homeopathy to be equally reliable contradicts both common sense and NPOV. Those promoting the practice have an obvious conflict of interest and should not be trusted to the extent of independent, peer-review journals, or to the exent of well established and trusted national organizations such as the AMA and the NIH. Someguy1221 19:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

We are trying to establish what the view of the mainstream scientific community is concerning the efficacy of homeopathy. The NHS is an official body which has some authority to speak for the mainstream. The Faculty of Homeopathy has an obvious conflict of interest. Therefore the NHS position is a better source to answer this question (whether they are right or not). (Don't get me wrong. I am not satisfied with the current wording either.) --Art Carlson 08:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

How WP:NPOV works, we do not give undue weight, but we do not exclude the minority viewpoint. The NHS position is relevant and should be contextualized, and so is that of the Faculty of Homeopathy. Misplaced Pages does not allow only the mainstream view to be presented. It is a violation of WP:NPOV. Whig 16:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree Art; thats exactly I asked Adam: if we could use NHS words.Please read it is there : you can see it above as well. --Sm565 08:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Controversy.Non consesus. Look at whole statement. I know Adam hided it so you cannot see it but clikc on show. Art the editors used this citation to support the phrase the "scientific community asserts" not me.Why did not you object before? I suggested its use since it was a trustable and reliable sourse according to the editors. I agree with them that it is ...--Sm565 07:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

(EC)Nicely quote-mined there, well done. It takes real skill to use an article that clearly shows the scientific consensus is that homeopathy is a steaming pile of bunk, and cite it as though it were an example of precisely the opposite. Have highly potentised cookie...  –  ornis⚙ 07:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

So ConfuciusOrnis in the sentence "Some scientists argue that homeopathy cannot work because the remedies used are so highly diluted", Some scientists = the scientific community ?--Sm565 23:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

As I read the NHS abstract, it states that there is no substance to homeopathy at all, and that only a few crackpots here and there make wild claims for it and basically twist the facts to justify their beliefs.--Filll 13:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

IMHO the NHS Results page is not a totally clear statement one way or the other and thus can be interpreted to support either side of this discussion to some extent. This is unfortunate when the discussion includes as much hairsplitting as this one does.

I do not see how NHS could be interpreted to say “there is no substance to homeopathy at all, and that only a few crackpots here and there make wild claims for it and basically twist the facts to justify their beliefs”. I think some moderation in the rhetoric of this discussion would be helpful.

My reading of NHS Results page is that homeopathy has no efficacy beyond a placebo effect, but it does not exactly say that. Wanderer57 18:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

There is a clear NPOV dispute on this article. "Mainstream" scientific POV is presented throughout the article, which is appropriate to give most weight to, but alternative viewpoints are not given an adequate voice, nor are primary sources treated. Beliefs are attributed to "homeopaths" as a whole, by non-homeopaths. There is not an adequate factual description of homeopathy. It is treated as a subject to be dismissed. Whig 18:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's treated no differently than is any other pseudoscience. Why not create a new article Homeopathy for and by Believers and you can cast aside all that nasty "science stuff". •Jim62sch• 19:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Nobody is trying to cast aside science. Whig 19:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute: "Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Whig (talk • contribs) 19:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

And other times, trolls descend on articles. Adam Cuerden 19:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a troll. Assume good faith. Whig 19:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You've wasted a huge amount of time on tendentious arguments and trying to POV-push a fringe view. It's near enough. As Misplaced Pages:NPOV dispute also says, "ideologues, when presented with an article that has exemplary neutrality (as per our policy), will consider the article biased precisely because it does not reflect their own bias enough."

I haven't POV-pushed a darn thing. Whig 19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Y'know, it's very odd that "Assume good faith" is the mantra of trolls and POV'ers the Wiki world over. I wonder why that is? •Jim62sch• 19:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Focus on the article. Not personalities. Whig 19:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You claim that ""Mainstream" scientific POV is presented throughout the article, which is appropriate to give most weight to, but alternative viewpoints are not given an adequate voice," - Scientific point of view is presented as a balancing point of view in History section, almost completely absent in the General philosophy section and Treatments section. It is rightly given predominance in the section on Scientific assessment. In all, from 5 sections where this view could be discussed, it dominates only in one. This complaint is without foundation. Tim Vickers 19:50, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You have taken only one of my complaints and partially out of context, it is not wrong for the scientific point of view to predominate, but alternative viewpoints are not given an adequate voice. Whig 20:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Generally, if a single editor insists on adding a tag in the face of a large number of opposing editors, the problem is not with the article. While this article isn't perfect, there doesn't seem to be any flagrant violation of WP:NPOV, either. Give specific, clear examples of non-neutral wording, or provide specific examples of significant, relevant points of view that are omitted or improperly attributed; stop edit warring over a tag. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not a single editor ....don't you see what happens here.?? Half of the souses are misrepresented in the article in order to support inaccurate statements. Even the current editors who support the article agreed with this...... look for example:

--Sm565 20:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

That may be so, but there has been a long running NPOV dispute here, and the very quick response reaction to suppress NPOV disputes by User:Adam Cuerden and others does not represent the views of all editors. Whig 20:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I will try to set forth a list of at least several specific, clear examples, and I encourage other editors to do the same. Whig 20:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, all of the sections in this article should be pro-science. If someone wants something else, they should make another article. Perhaps on another wiki.--Filll 19:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Er no. Misplaced Pages has a NPOV not an SPOV although in cases like this. The article as it currently stands is pretty NPOV though as far as I can tell. JoshuaZ 20:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Really? Well maybe there is something I am not understanding. I thought that WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE meant that we did not promote fringe theories and characterized nonmainstream viewpoints as the mainstream would.--Filll 20:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you seem to not be understanding Misplaced Pages policy. Please read WP:NPOV. Whig 20:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I pointed out above, Filll, that WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE do not imply a "pro-science" POV, no matter how much you want them to. We are trying to be neutral here. Just report what's out there and don't worry about whether it is right or wrong, good or evil, vegetables or jelly donuts. Try reading the sources and replacing "homeopathy" with something you don't have an opinion about. What wording would you use then? --Art Carlson 20:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I have not edited the text of the article for weeks on end. So do not bite me ok? However, medical articles and science articles about pseudoscience topics are to be written from the mainstream viewpoint, as far as I know, and from my reading of the guidelines. However, it is not up to you guys, no matter what tantrums you might want to throw and how you want to spit and fume. This does not mean we do not present the pseudoscience view. We present both. But we make sure we temper the pseudoscience view with at least an equal measure of the mainstream view, if not more. However, it is not up to me or you either. It is up to consensus. So we will see where that lies.--Filll 20:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV is non-negotiable. Whig 20:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Quoting WP:NPOV: Neutral point of view is a fundamental Misplaced Pages principle. According to Jimmy Wales, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable." Whig 20:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Equal representation of all sides is not NPOV. This is why we have WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDO. We also have relevant arbitration rulings to help us decide: here, here, and here. Someguy1221 20:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No one has asked for equal representation. We do not give undue weight to alternative theories, but we present them fairly. We use primary sources to elucidate and describe them, along with criticism by opponents. We do not enact debates in Misplaced Pages, we contextualize them. Whig 20:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Filll seems satisfied with the present state of the article while promoting a very explicit pro-"Mainstream science" POV and condemnation of alternatives, seems evident proof that it fails to be neutral. Whig 20:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Er, Fill wasn't happy. Filll said "The problem is, all of the sections in this article should be pro-science". So apparently he thinks that it isn't SPOV. JoshuaZ 20:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No point arguing over what he thinks, he can speak for himself. I take it that if he hasn't edited it in some time and does not agree it fails to be NPOV, he is satisfied. Whig 20:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

My dear Liberal friend Whig, do please study NPOV: Pseudoscience, NPOV: Undue weight and NPOV: Giving "equal validity" with care. Filll is right in requiring offstream views to be tempered by clear juxtaposition and comparison with mainstream views.. .. dave souza, talk 20:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

My liberality and friendship seem irrelevant, but according to the NPOV Pseudoscience link, we should be more specific in categorizing an alternative view. Homeopathy is not obvious pseudoscience, it may be generally considered pseudoscience, in the same category as astrology, or perhaps questionable science, like psychoanalysis. Whig 22:34, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Well I am speaking for myself now. And I am NOT happy with this article. I want it delisted as a GA. I want it to present the scientific and medical side first and foremost. I do not want to see it bending over backwards to try to rationalize some mythology or obsolete witchcraft with no and I mean NO basis in science, or medicine, or any evidence to support it, or any theory that would even make it plausible. It is claptrap. It is nonsense. It is horsepucky. It is bull. It is woo woo. Can I make myself any clearer? The present article is FAR TOO PRO-HOMEOPATHY. It needs to be made much closer to neutral and mainstream to be included in WP. Do I make myself clear? Or do you want it in even clearer terms? I will be happy to oblige you if there is any doubt.

I did not edit this article for weeks on end because I was driven off by an editor who was frantic to make admin. So I let him have a chance unimpeded, and I am not entirely happy with the outcome. So now we have to start the arduous task of fixing this mess. Capisci?--Filll 20:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. I am glad to know where you stand. I would like to see there be a real contextualization of the debate here, and if we can thereby show how it is demolished by modern understandings, then that would be consistent with what you want to achieve. Whig 20:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Second para

"Homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since its theory states that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers"."

Hahnemann wrote that how many hundred years ago before modern molecular biology? Attributing these words to "homeopathy" as a whole as if all modern practitioners must believe precisely this, is a complete farce. Whig 20:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be correct to attribute to Hahnemann what he said. We do not say all people in the group share one belief. Whig 20:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there actually any other explanation of it current in homeopathy? Adam Cuerden 20:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have knowledge one way or the other? Document it. Isaac Newton's ideas are inconsistent with modern physics, so what? Is there no such thing as modern homeopathy? Whig 20:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

All homeopaths believe in the use of extreme dilution and "water memory" or its equivalent to produce remedies, this is one of the defining characteristics of the practice. You might use alternative words to describe this belief, but this is indeed a common attribute of homeopaths. Find me a reliable source from a homeopathic organisation that dismisses the idea of water memory. Just one would do. Tim Vickers 20:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Has Whig got a reliable secondary source for the assertion? ... dave souza, talk 20:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

What assertion? Whig 21:01, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Water memory is not the same thing as believing the precise thing that Hahnemann does. For instance, a quantum mechanical view can explain some things, however unlikely that explanation may also be. I do not wish to conduct original research here, I wish only to contextualize the debate. Whig 21:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

All homeopaths believe that dilution increases the medicinal powers of a compound. This hypothetical "medicinal power" is not a physical property that can be measured. Therefore, it is entirely accurate to describe a belief in a insubstantial and supernatural entity with these classic words from one of homeopathy's most respected practitioners. Tim Vickers 21:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It is correct to attribute to Hahnemann what he said. Unmeasurables exist, we have already discussed it above. If you take a 6C dilution, you will not be able to detect the original substance with your instruments, but it is still present according to the laws of physics. Whether it has medicinal effect is a separate question which can be evidenced by studies which tend to support or disprove it. Whig 21:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Do all homeopaths believe in unbounded dilution? Whig 21:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

All homeopaths, including you it seems, agree with Hahnemann on the existence of these unmeasurable spirit-like properties, I can therefore see no reasonable grounds for your objection to us noting this fact and stating that these views are inconsistent with the laws of physics and chemistry. This is a fair summary using a direct quote from the father of homeopathy, your incoherent objections to this rely on original research that is bizarre even from a homeopathic perspective. Tim Vickers 22:00, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm hardly a homeopath, and I don't agree with spirit-like properties. I do believe in quantum mechanics, but that's kind of standard science these days, isn't it? Whig 22:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not standard science to misinterpret quantum theory to attempt to prove water memory. That's like using special relativity to prove the existence of unicorns. Tim Vickers 22:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I haven't tried to prove a thing. That would be original research. Whig 22:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is you are trying to prove that homeopathy is a fraud. That isn't our job. Whig 22:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I just share the mainstream scientific view that homeopathy is a fraud. Our job in this article is to ensure that the reader is given a thorough and detailed explanation of the history, theory and practice of homeopathy, while making absolutely clear the the overwhelming majority of scientists and doctors find its ideas and practices completely absurd. That is NPOV. Tim Vickers 23:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree : None of the cited references in the article supports the sentence the overwhelming majority of scientists. They say many. Thats why I made this list: Here are all: :::

I think I wrote it before. If there are any objections please let mknow by giving examples.

--Sm565 01:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you name any scientists who have published in mainstream journals in support of homeopathy? If not, then we clearly have a case of calling a spade a spade and stating, simply, that "the scientific community considers it " should suffice. The onus is on you to find a counter example if you really believe that there are examples of people in the scientific community who publish otherwise. ScienceApologist 02:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

calling a spade a spade?????

Two of them find homeopathy positive promising without yet definite conclusions.

Look at the results.

— /

Dont ask me for Dr.Fisher. --Sm565 02:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

With the exception of those who draw no definite conclusions, the journals cited are not mainstream. ScienceApologist 03:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

They are MDs and some of them are university proffesors. --Sm565 03:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That's not the issue. The issue is the venue. ScienceApologist 03:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Your mainstream journal constraint is unreasonable. Homeopathy is an alternative viewpoint, and does not have a lot of mainstream research. What research exists in mainstream journals should of course be included and given prominance. Whig 02:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to claim that there are people in the scientific community who support homeopathy then you should have a citation to back yourself up from the mainstream community. Please read WP:FRINGE. ScienceApologist 02:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It is absolutely fair and proper to say that the overwhelming majority of scientists disbelieve in homeopathy, but the article should also give space to alternative views and present cited context for all points of view. Whig 23:19, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Give an example of a non-homeopath who has an alternative point of view that has been published in a medical journal or another peer-reviewed outlet and we'll be happy to oblige. Otherwise, you are barking up an unduly weighted tree. ScienceApologist 23:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Your precondition is the problem. You cannot restrict the Misplaced Pages to non-homeopaths. Whig 23:43, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fine. Find us a homeopath who has been published in a medical journal or another peer-reviewed outlet showing the scientific efficacy of their discipline. ScienceApologist 23:49, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

At the moment, I am reading the Organon, this primary source needs to be read in order to be discussed intelligently. It seems like few editors here have bothered to look at it, beyond deciding it was crap from one or two excerpts taken out of context. Whig 01:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What editors should or should not read is a private matter. Research proceeds accordingly. Anyway, I'm still waiting for that homeopath who has been published in a peer-reviewed journal. ScienceApologist 02:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not a private matter. It is the primary source document of homeopathy. Without an understanding of which, this article has no context. Whig 06:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your statement Whig. All points of view that have been published in reliable sources should be represented according to the prominence of these views. This is what the article does. Tim Vickers 23:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

How it does that Tim? Stating that the scientific community asserts? If you want to be presice you should at least add "a.... part of this community asserts" that homeopathy works.

The size is debatable. --Sm565 03:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy and quantum mechanics

I've seen some pretty weird stuff on this talkpage, but I'd like to point out the following:

There is no quantum mechanical basis for homeopathy, nor have their been any reliable papers written that support homeopathy through quantum mechanics. We can therefore abandon that rhetoric right now.

ScienceApologist 23:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

A Google Search brings up several hits including papers. They may not be reliable and worth including in the article, but they belie the argument that all homeopaths believe in some spirit-like property. Whig 23:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You don't seem to realise that the first hit in this search is a spoof paper Towards a Quantum Mechanical Interpretation of Homeopathy from the Annals of Improbable Research. I think that says everything that needs to be said about your argument. Tim Vickers 23:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't review that or any other paper, I just performed the search, and that was not the only result. Just because someone spoofs an idea doesn't mean nobody holds it. Whig 23:16, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The burden of proof is not upon me, but upon those who claim that all homeopaths believe in some spirit-like property. That is a hard burden, because only one exception disproves it. Whig 23:17, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

You've shown no exception. Perhaps User:Whig should take a gander at what a reliable source is. I might also note that WP:FRINGE comes into play. By invoking quantum mechanics you are placing the bar very high. Quantum mechanics is a subdiscipline of physics and as such, the only reliable sources that are permissible are those which are published in peer reviewed physics journals. I see nothing like that in your Google search. Try again. ScienceApologist 23:18, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not my burden. Read again. I'm not doing original research here. Whig 23:21, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

By asserting that someone uses quantum mechanics to support homeopathy, you are asserting a claim that has absolutely no backing. It undercuts all of your arguments. ScienceApologist 23:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I made no such assertion. Whig 23:26, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Great. Then we're done with this section and we don't need to hear about quantum mechanics anymore. ScienceApologist 23:28, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, found an article. Towards a New Model of the Homeopathic Process Based on Quantum Field Theory. It may or may not be suitable for reference in the main article, but establishes quite plainly that some homeopaths posit a quantum physical mechanism. Whig 09:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Unbounded dilution poll

I will ask the question again: Do all homeopaths believe in unbounded dilution? Whig 23:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• Yes -- Inasmuch as homeopaths believe in water memory and that the presence of the substance in measurable amounts is not required for the efficacy of the homeopathic remedy, then yes, all homeopaths believe in unbounded dilution. ScienceApologist 23:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  As discussed above, a 6C potency has an unmeasurable quantity of substance which is still physically present according to the laws of physics. Whig 23:33, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  Distinguishing between infinity and infinity minus epsilon is a philosophical splitting of hairs which has no place in this conversation. Yes, every breath you take has at least one atom that was in Julius Ceasar's last breath. That does not make you Julius Ceasar. ScienceApologist 23:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  No, I don't think I'm Julius Caesar. I think I'm a Misplaced Pages editor. Whig 23:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  Good, then we can move on. ScienceApologist 23:48, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• No -- Inasmuch as ScienceApologist has defeated his own argument. Whig 23:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  Actually I haven't. Attempting to simply state it as such doesn't make it so. ScienceApologist 23:56, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  Reductio ad Caesarum is a novel argument, I'll admit. Whig 23:59, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

  Reductio ad Homeopathum is equivalent. ScienceApologist 00:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

  Even better! Whig 00:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is irrelevant to the question at hand. Adam Cuerden 02:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It it not irrelevant. If some homeopaths use 6C potencies, then you cannot say that they are violating physical laws. Whig 02:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a verifiable citation for this claim? ScienceApologist 02:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What claim? I haven't made a claim. I have rebutted the false claim you made. Whig 02:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Where is the verifiable citation for saying that all homeopaths believe in unbounded dilution? Whig 02:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You stated "If some homeopaths use 6C potencies, then you cannot say that they are violating physical laws." Can you verify this statement with a source? ScienceApologist 02:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SA,. you miss the point: He doesn't just have to show us homeopaths use lower dilutions, he has to show homeopaths, in print, saying that dilutions that theoretically DO contain substance work, but that dilutions higher, that almost certainly CANNOT contain any of the substance do not. Otherwise, this is a pointless attempt at OR. He's making the bold assertion that some homeopaths don't believe in the core aspects of their practice, with no evidence. Adam Cuerden 02:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Whig 02:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter is very knowledgeable on Homeopathic matters. None of you might agree with his beliefs regarding the efficacy of homeopathy, but he knows a lot about these sorts of things regarding homeopathic beliefs and it's history. Wikidudeman 02:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In any case, whatever the words used, the belief that "extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their medicinal powers." is still at the heart of homeopathy. Whether they think it's spirit-like, or come up with some post-hoc justification, it's still bunkum. We could spend an entire section on the takedowns of the stupidities used to justify it, but it all comes down to mere attempts to claim Hahnemann's magical thinking was right, not through evidence, but through more magical thinking in contemporary language. Adam Cuerden 02:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, Adam, that is not at all my understanding from the first hundred sections of Hahnemann's book. Not at all, not remotely. His idea is that it is helpful to use a remedy which causes a symptom like the disorder, but in the smallest possible dose in order to minimize the toxicity of the remedy. Whig 02:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and, Whig, it's cute that you copy-pasted my attempt to explain things to you from up above, out of cotnext, in order to replace my real thoughts. It's also attempting to make me support an argument I don't by making it seem I was replying to SA. Don't do it again. Adam Cuerden 02:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

First, sorry for deleting your comment above, that was accidental. I thought I had made a mistake copy-pasting. Second, I'm not sure what is wrong with having done that, because you showed mathematically and irrefutably that a 6C potency is undetectable but above the level at which none of the original substance could be atomically present. Whig 02:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you can point me to some useful macros for that purpose, because I can see how it was possibly confusing and I didn't mean to mislead anyone. I just wanted to quote you. Whig 02:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Right. Apology accepted. Try putting it in {{cquote}} or stripping the signatures. It's just Peter was editing my comments earlier, so... Basically, it's upon you to show that a notable group of homeopaths reject dilution above the Avogadro's limit. The text, after all, says "some common dilutions" are over the limit, not all homeopathic dilutions. Adam Cuerden 02:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned my own concerns with what Peter did on his Talk page. I think we have all gotten rather overheated and it is best we all try to be civil. I'm not a homeopath. I'm just learning about it. I'm reading the articles and the books and doing my own independent research. That is allowed, of course. I'm not trying to place my own research into Misplaced Pages, but I am very much trying to demonstrate that the article presently represents a straw man description of homeopathy which is easily made to look silly. Whig 02:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It is slanted prose to say that some common dilutions are possibly bizarre, and not note that there is no physical reason lower potencies aren't practical and effective. Whig 03:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Shorter Article (in present form): Homeopaths believe in horses and some even believe in unicorns. Unicorns are nonsense. Therefore homeopathy is bunk. Whig 03:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This discussion is difficult to follow. Quoting from the discussion:

Do all homeopaths believe in unbounded dilution?

Yes -- Inasmuch as homeopaths believe in water memory and that the presence of the substance in measurable amounts is not required for the efficacy of the homeopathic remedy, then yes, all homeopaths believe in unbounded dilution.

As discussed above, a 6C potency has an unmeasurable quantity of substance which is still physically present according to the laws of physics.

First question, relating to the above, is it true that at a high dilution one dose of the solution might have 1 or 2 molecules of the "active ingredient", while another dose from the same batch could have zero such molecules? Because materials are not infinitely divisible, high dilutions would result in many doses that contain only the dilutant. Right?

Second question: If a patient goes to a clinic with a ailment for which there is a “conventional” treatment of proven efficacy, would it be ethical for a doctor, instead of giving the conventional treatment, to put the patient into a study where the treatment they would get is a homeopathic treatment of unknown value or a placebo? Wanderer57 03:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In an emergency, Hahnemann would give an allopathic remedy, according to what I've read so far. In a chronic case, he would give a homeopathic remedy. Whig 04:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think in answer to your second question particularly, it would not be ethical to withhold emergency care but if a patient is giving knowing consent to participate in a study that is not more harmful than placebo, what is wrong with that? Whig 04:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Delisted GA

It is clear to me with the neutrality under attack for this article and being currently in protection, it is not fair to call this article "good". I have delisted it. ScienceApologist 02:10, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

A point of agreement. Cheers! Whig 02:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SA. Not a good move. You've fed the POV-warriors. It had it's problems, and I consider it had an NPOV issue, but for the opposite reasons as Whig. However, I had compromised because a bunch of much better editors such as Adam and Tim Vickers had rewrote the article essentially. I completely disagree with your move. OrangeMarlin 02:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can certainly relist it if you want. I just am sorry to see the page protection of a version I think has major problems in being too lenient toward homeopathic true believers. ScienceApologist 03:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

SA, don't worry, I wouldn't get into this hornet's nest. I'd rather keep this quackery-POV article well-hidden. OrangeMarlin 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read the instructions at {{ArticleHistory}} when updating GA status. Also, if editors will scroll to the bottom of the page after updating articlehistory, they will notice the red highlighted error category when errors are introduced to articlehistory. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

While I'm here, added Medicine. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Medicine/Reliable_sources in particular has a lot to say to keep us on the right track here. --Art Carlson 14:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

If there is general agreement with this delistment, the reassessment should be archived. Otherwise, the article should be relisted until an outcome at GAR is reached. Please add any comments here, otherwise I will use my own judgement. Thank you! Geometry guy 23:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, unless SA is a major contributor, (He just got back from a long wikibreak, so I don't know) i'm not sure if he's really done anything wrong here. Of course, the GA/R could change the article's status back again.... Homestarmy 21:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed revision to introduction

It seems to me that the intro is far too long - tempers are running rather hot, and everyone seems determined to get in every single point they can, as early as they can. The proposed revision below cuts the lead back to the minimum - the material that's removed doesn't have to be removed from the article itself, it can still remain in the appropriate paras of the main article, but the lead needs to be concise and to distill the essence, not to touch on every detail. Anyway, the following is for your consideration, whicb I know you will give in a gracious and considerate manner. PiCo 03:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

+++++CURRENT VERSION++++ Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek, ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a controversial form of alternative medicine that aims to treat "like with like". It was invented in the late 18th century by German physician Samuel Hahnemann. Substances, which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease, are administered in heavily diluted formulations, with shaking at each stage of the dilution. Homeopaths contend that the shaking causes some imprint (or memory) of the diluted substance upon the medium (usually water or alcohol), thus enabling it to treat the patient, even though in many common homeopathic dilutions no molecules of the original substance are likely to remain. Homeopathy is based on a vitalist world view, which sees the underlying causes of sickness as imbalances in a hypothetical vital force. Proponents claim that homeopathic treatment can harmonize and re-balance the vital force in the body, thus restoring health. These claims are unsupported by modern biology or medicine.

Claims for the medical efficacy of homeopathic treatments are unsupported by the collected weight of scientific and clinical studies. Homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since its theory states that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers". The scientific community asserts there is no evidence that water or alcohol retain any memory of a substance and that any positive effects of homeopathic treatment are simply a placebo effect. Homeopaths have been accused of giving 'false hope' to patients who might otherwise seek effective conventional treatments, or even advising patients to avoid standard medical procedures. Meta-analyses confirmed that any effects are unlikely to be beyond that of placebo, and studies that have shown positive results were flawed in design. These findings, along with the proscription by homeopaths against conventional medicine and encouragement of a "holistic" approach to health, are consistent with the argument that homeopathy is a sort of quackery.

+++++PROPOSED REVISION++++

Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek, ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a form of alternative medicine that aims "to treat like with like". Invented in the late 18th century by German physician Samuel Hahnemann, it is based on a world-view which sees the underlying causes of sickness as imbalances in a hypothetical "vital force"; treatments aim to harmonize and re-balance the "vital force" through the administration in highly diluted doses of substances which in large quantities would cause symptoms similar to the disease.

Claims for the efficacy of homeopathic treatments are unsupported by clinical studies or by modern scientific knowledge, and homeopaths have been accused of giving 'false hope' to patients who might otherwise seek effective conventional treatments, or even advising patients to avoid standard medical procedures.

Second paragraph is not fairly stated. There are clinical studies that support homeopathic effectiveness. They may be a minority of the studies and they may have had design defects. Second, I have already touched on the modern scientific knowledge claim, 6C or lower potencies have no physical existence concern. Whig 03:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I take it then that you would feel ok about the first paragraph. As for the second, your point could be met by adding the qualifier "most",i.e. "Claims for the efficacy of homeopathic treatments are unsupported by most clinical studies..." I don't understand the last clause of your last sentence: "...6C or lower potencies have no physical existence concern": what do you mean by "no physical existence concern"?PiCo 05:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Any potency below 11c is below the Avogadro limit and thus theoretically has molecules of the original substance in it. Thus it is chemically detectable and has 'no physical existence concerns.' Is that clearer? Peter morrell 05:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

According to Adam Cuerden, anything above about 4.5C is undetectable with scientific instruments. That does not prove it is biologically undetectable. Whig 05:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it's clearer, but I don't think it's connected to the point being made in that para about the scientific basis of homeopathy: primarily, the concepts of molecular "memory", and of "vital force". PiCo 05:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why you need to rely on the spooky language as the essence of homeopathy. Most books from that era used similar terminology. Allopathic medicine was in worse shape. The article makes that much clear. Whig 05:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Most analytical techniques can detect substances down to one part per million which is 3c or 6x but for many substances with biological activity such as hormones and insect pheromones, for example, one can get down to one part per billion which is 6c. We need an analytical chemist to speak on this matter. Peter morrell 05:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The detectability of substances in dilution is not material to the question of the scientific basis of homeopathy. The sentence that I'm summarising says: "Homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since its theory states that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers". What's at issue is not whether substances can be detected at extreme dilutions, but whether there exist chemical mechanisms which could enhance the effectiveness of drugs through dilution. The theoretical basis of homeopathy, according to the first parqa, are the ability of water to take an "imprint" from other substances, and the existence of "elan vital" (and also the existence of "miasms"). Detectability is not an issue in this context.PiCo 06:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No, that does not seem to be the fundamental basis of homeopathy. The idea of dilution is to reduce toxicity of the remedy. Whig 06:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hahnemann believed that reducing the toxicity of the remedy would cause it to be more effective because the body would have less to overcome, if I translate him into modern language. Whig 06:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Of course I may be totally off, and Peter can probably correct me if I'm misunderstanding and I'm only a little bit into the book, but it is at least a foundation that makes reasonable sense. Whig 06:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In any case there are potencies which will always be undetectable yet physically present according to modern day science. Whig 06:26, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

- - -

I have a supply of tablets that are sold as a homoepathic treatment for insomnia. They are lactose containing 3X dilutions of three other ingredients. At this dilution (assuming thorough mixing), there are definitely small amounts of each ingredient in each tablet, so there is no issue of infinitesimals or total absence.

The existence of remedies of this nature should remind us that all of modern homeopathy cannot be written off as being “unsupported by.... modern scientific knowledge” or words to that effect. I think the article (and probably the introduction) needs to acknowledge the diversity of practise, both to give a fair description and to avoid a "one critique fits all homeopathy" approach. Wanderer57 15:46, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Parts per hundred billion

Here is an article detailing detection of Nitrogen dioxide at parts per hundred billion, which is clearly a feasible task in modern chemistry, therefore yes indeed 6c or 8c potencies do indeed contain detectable molecules. thank you Peter morrell 16:53, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please list the clinical studies below.(Please write your comments below the studies section)

inconclusive studies

1. There is not enough evidence to reliably assess the possible role of homeopathy in asthma.

2.cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=12535487 MAIN RESULTS: There were no studies that fulfilled the criteria for inclusion and no data to present. REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: In view of the absence of evidence it is not possible to comment on the use of homeopathy in treating dementia.

3. Insufficient information was available on the method of randomisation and the study lacked clinically meaningful outcomes.REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to recommend the use of homoeopathy as a method of induction. It is likely that the demand for complementary medicine will continue and women will continue to consult a homoeopath during their pregnancy. Although caulophyllum is a commonly used homoeopathic therapy to induce labour, the treatment strategy used in the one trial in which it was evaluated may not reflect routine homoeopathy practice. Rigorous evaluations of individualised homeopathic therapies for induction of labour are needed..--Sm565 05:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

4. Reduction was mostly in mild attacks on placebo, more in moderate and severe attacks on homoeopathy. Few adverse events were reported. Overall, there was no significant benefit over placebo of homoeopathic treatment. The course of change differed between groups, and suggested that improvement reversed in the last month of treatment on placebo. On this evidence we cannot recommend homoeopathy for migraine prophylaxis, but cannot conclude that it is without effect.--Sm565 05:39, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

5. There is also evidence from randomized, controlled trials that homeopathy may be effective for the treatment of influenza, allergies, postoperative ileus, and childhood diarrhea. Evidence suggests that homeopathy is ineffective for migraine, delayed-onset muscle soreness, and influenza prevention. There is a lack of conclusive evidence on the effectiveness of homeopathy for most conditions. Homeopathy deserves an open-minded opportunity to demonstrate its value by using evidence-based principles, but it should not be substituted for proven therapies.--Sm565 05:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Studies showing negative

1. methodological quality was variable including some high standard studies .... found insufficient evidence to support clinical efficacy of homeopathic therapy in cancer care.--Sm565 04:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

2.Ultramolecular homeopathy had no observable clinical effects. --Sm565 04:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This link today does not reach an article. Wanderer57 15:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The link to the abstract is here ... Kenosis 14:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

3. Cancerous lymphocytes (Jurkat), having lost the ability to respond to regulatory signals, seem to be fairly unresponsive to high homeopathic potencies--Sm565 05:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

4. CONCLUSION: There is no indication that belladonna 30CH produces symptoms different from placebo or from no intervention--Sm565 05:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Studies showing positive

1. although favouring homeopathic treatment, do not allow a firm conclusion The clinical evidence appears promising, however, and more research into this area seems warranted.--Sm565 04:43, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

2.(pilot study ?) Efficacy Study of Homeopathic Potassium Dichromate to Treat Tracheal Secretions in Critically Ill Patients:

Whig 04:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

50 patients is at best a pilot study. Adam Cuerden 11:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

3. The objective results reinforce earlier evidence that homoeopathic dilutions differ from placebo. --Sm565 05:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

4. individualized homeopathy is significantly better than placebo in lessening tender point pain and improving the quality of life and global health of persons with fibromyalgia.--Sm565 05:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Didn't that one come up before and turn out to be another pilot study when you looked at the full text? Adam Cuerden 11:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

5. individualized homeopathic treatment decreases the duration of diarrhea and number of stools in children with acute childhood diarrhea.--Sm565 05:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

metananalyses inconclusive

CONCLUSIONS: There is some evidence that homeopathic treatments are more effective than placebo; however, the strength of this evidence is low because of the low methodological quality of the trials. Studies of high methodological quality were more likely to be negative than the lower quality studies. Further high quality studies are needed to confirm these results.--Sm565 07:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

metananalyses positive

metananalyses inconclusive - positive trend

1. it shows positive but not conclusive. indicates that there Most trials seemed to be of very low quality, but there were many exceptions. The results showed a positive trend regardless of the quality of the trial or the variety of homeopathy used. Overall, of the 105 trials with interpretable results, 81 trials indicated positive results whereas in 24 trials no positive effects of homoeopathy were found. The results of the review may be complicated by publication bias, especially in such a controversial subject as homoeopathy. At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homoeopathy, but only by means of well performed trials.".--Sm565 06:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)--Sm565 06:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

2. INTERPRETATION: The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic--Sm565 07:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)--Sm565 07:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

3. CONCLUSION: The results of the available randomized trials suggest that individualized homeopathy has an effect over placebo. The evidence, however, is not convincing because of methodological shortcomings and inconsistencies. Future research should focus on replication of existing promising studies. New randomized studies should be preceded by pilot studies--Sm565 07:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

metananalyses negative

1.This finding is compatible with the notion that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are placebo effects.--Sm565 04:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)--Sm565 04:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

2. CONCLUSION: for childhood and adolescence ailmentsThe evidence is not convincing enough for recommendations in any condition ......for childhood and adolescence ailments. --Sm565 04:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

metananalyses -critisism

1. ] "Having read this ( LAncet) report, the figures do not stack up. The much-trumpeted conclusion about homeopathy being only a placebo is based on not 110 clinical trials, but just eight. My suspicion is that this report is being selective to try to discredit homeopathy." --Sm565 06:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

.........

Comments below this line please

The whole quote is "At the moment the evidence of clinical trials is positive but not sufficient to draw definitive conclusions because most trials are of low methodological quality and because of the unknown role of publication bias. This indicates that there is a legitimate case for further evaluation of homoeopathy, but only by means of well performed trials.". That isn't positive, that's at best neutral. Adam Cuerden 05:21, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

These all the clinical studies cited in the article. If anybody can contribute to this list it would be helpful.I think all the studies could be used including the metanalyses and its critisisms. The basic homeopathic objection about the placebo-controlled randomised controlled trial not being a fitting research tool with which to test homeopathy." must be added, briefly exlained and critisized.--Sm565 06:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the outstanding quote mining!!! OrangeMarlin 12:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

This is verging on WP:OR. Anyway, this page is not the place to debate Homeopathy itself. It is a place to discuss the article.--Filll 16:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. That's totally correct Filll. Wikidudeman 16:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it? I haven't seen any WP:OR here. Whig 16:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Whig, Did you get my E-mail? Look at the bottom section and see if you can add some stuff there so that we can get an idea of what your disputes with the article are. Just to summarize it all and clarify it all without having to read through all of these talk page posts. Wikidudeman 16:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please RTFO

Organon of Medicine

I'm only part-way through, and spending so much time here on Talk:Homeopathy has left me little to get further. I think responsible editors will read this book in order to be properly informed of what homeopathy is, or at least how it was originally defined and practiced. Whig 05:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Supplementary article on clinical trials

How do guys type fast enough to produce so much verbiage in a few short hours? And does anybody think we have made any progress? I'm sorry (or maybe I'm not) that I don't have enough time now to mediate and/or join the fray, but let me suggest a way forward. The discussion now focuses on the summary of the scientific opinion in the introduction. This is understandable, but the main reason we cannot agree on the wording of the summary is that we do not agree on the content of the section "Medical and scientific analysis". We should work on that first, but ... To do justice to all sides would require going into great detail, including what is good and bad about individual studies, and what is good and bad about clinical tests of homeopathy in general. That level of detail is not appropriate in an overview article on homeopathy. The way out, as I see it, is to work on a supplemental article on "Medical and scientific analysis of homeopathy", or maybe just "Clinical trials of homeopathy". With more space available, we can be more comprehensive and work more closely with the reliable sources. My great hope (I have always been known for my unbounded naivety.) is that, once we have all the cards on the table, we can find a summary that all sides can live with, especially since potential misunderstandings can be mitigated by refering to the detailed article. I have a foggy outline in my head of what the new article should look like, but that will have to wait till later. Also, it might be easier to keep tempers under control if we first write the article off-line, like we did recently for the main article. I thought Wikidudeman did a good job there and would welcome it if he took over the process. --Art Carlson 08:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Art, I see no problems with your suggestion and think it could indeed be a valuable addition and hopefully an arena which could generate more common ground and more light than recent heat! cheers Peter morrell 08:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think splitting the article into parts is not a bad idea. I'm still fairly new to the Homeopathy discussion but I think Wikidudeman has some POV issues himself. Perhaps that is difficult to avoid in a controversial issue like this, but I wouldn't put one person in charge of the editing job especially with existing WP:OWN issues. Whig 16:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That's actually a terrible idea. Splitting the article up. This is how it used to be and it was a mess of articles mostly with redundant information. Concerning your accusations of me having POV issues or "OWN" issues, This is a dead horse issue. I do have personal beliefs regarding homeopathy but I'm willing to bet that you likely wouldn't even be able to identify them based solely on my contributions here. As far as "ownership" goes, If you can provide a single example of how any of my actions exhibited coincide with "ownership" of the article then please do. Wikidudeman 16:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No desire for an argument, but you have had past accusations of WP:OWNership by others, and I have seen you respond very defensively to any request for change or acknowledgment of present NPOV violation. Whig 16:45, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Accusations are pretty much meaningless if they don't include details or examples. I'm all for attempting to fix any problems that I might have in editing style, however baseless accusations aren't productive in any way. You can't conclude that I have "OWN issues" based solely on those accusations. If you want to see what editors uninvolved in these discussions think of my editing habits then please see :Misplaced Pages:Editor review/Wikidudeman. As far as being defensive in requests to change the article. I don't know how you get the impression that I am defensive in that regard but take it from me that it isn't true. I simply try to stick to the facts. If I see a NPOV problem then I'll be the first to say it. However if I don't see one then saying that I don't see one doesn't make me "defensive". It's just my opinions. Wikidudeman 16:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not making accusations. I'm stating my concerns with your being in charge. Whig 16:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think making a whole new article for the scientific evaluation of homeopathy is a good idea in the first place so it's not really relevant. However stating that "Wikidudeman has some POV issues himself" and that I have "existing WP:OWN issues" are clearly accusations. Wikidudeman 17:14, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please may the other active editors weigh in on the question of whether a supplementary article is a good idea. We can decide later how to produce it, whether under the mediation of Wikidudeman or someone else, or as a live article. --Art Carlson 17:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Reaching a consensus

There are obviously some people who see problems with this article and from what I can determine, these long and unregulated discussions don't accomplish anything. Therefore I want to try to resolve the disputes and get to the core of what problems some editors see with the article by having each editor who sees a problem with the article state in their own separate section what they see as problematic. Please list each problem as briefly as possible but don't forget to provide sufficient details. Be sure to list each separate problem with a * . Wikidudeman 14:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the conversation has been extremely productive, especially since the article was locked. I hope that when the article is made editable again, these conversations will help us to make it less POV. Restating the problems *again* here does not seem more than duplicative at this point. Whig 16:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It was locked due to edit warring. If it's unlocked before a total consensus is met then edit warring will occur again, immediately. Trust me on that one. I would suggest simply not editing the article at all, even after it's unprotected. Also please let's try it my way for a little while. Please list each problem below as briefly as possible but don't forget to provide sufficient details. Thanks. Wikidudeman 16:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It was locked due to some people insisting on taking off NPOV flags which are properly added. Whig 16:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time today to reiterate the problems that I spent almost the whole day on yesterday. You are late to the party on this one. Please feel free to summarize the arguments that have been made so far, that would be very helpful. Whig 16:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It was locked because you continued to add the POV tag even when other editors removed it. This is called "edit warring". You shouldn't have added it back. The first time it was reverted and removed, you should have continued to discuss it on the talk page opposed to adding it back. Regardless of whether it should or should not have been there. I am not "late to the game". The mass of discussions above occurred within a few hours. There is no consensus. They have accomplished little. I'm asking that you simply summarize your problems with this article so that we can all get an idea of your disputes with it. Will you not do that? Wikidudeman 16:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I could maybe do it tomorrow or the next day. Not today. I have things I need to do. Please feel free to summarize the things I and others have said up to this point. The POV tag should not be removed once the article is unprotected. Whig 16:49, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I can't summarize it. It's too confusing for me to do so. That's why I'm making this area for everyone to summarize their own arguments so that everyone can understand everyone else's. You say that the POV tag should NOT be removed when the article is unprotected? Well take it from me that at this rate it will be removed by someone. You'll add it back. Someone else will remove it. You'll add it back again. Then the page will be re-protected. That's how it will go down unless real consensus is met. So whenever you get time please add your rational for the tag. Include reasons and give details and then offer ways to get it removed. If the tag is taken down when the article is unprotected please do NOT add it back up as that would start an edit war. If there is a POV problem then let's fix it so there is no need for the tag in the first place. Please comment on Adam's proposals also. Wikidudeman 16:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty clear to me. If the page needs to stay protected to keep a POV tag, I will request continued protection. Whig 17:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

POV tags are only temporary. They remain until the POV can be fixed. If you aren't willing to summarize exactly what POV issues you see with the article then there is no justification to keep the POV tag. If you explain and summarize the POV issues and they get fixed, then again, there is no need to keep the tag. Keeping the article protected does not help anyone as the tag remains and the article's POV(if it exits) isn't fixed. Wikidudeman 17:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I have summarized my POV problems at length. If you can't read what I've written because you think it is too confusing, I'm sorry, and if someone else wants to summarize what I and others have written, who has less trouble understanding than you, that would be great. I have not refused to describe my POV problems with this article. You are just insisting on needless repetition that I don't have time for today. The POV dispute remains until it is resolved. Whig 17:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm just asking you to clarify and summarize them just once more here. Each problem each with it's own bullet so that it's very clear and easy to understand what your disputes are. From my reading I have seen no actual summary of your problems with the article. I see long drawn out debates but no actual summaries. Wikidudeman 17:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

(ed conflict)I'm sorry but, no, Whig, you have decidedly not summarized what you claim to be POV problems in this article, though you are correct about the "at length" part. You've been spouting gibberish about how quantum theory somehow justifies homeopathy and you've seriously misrepresented the conclusions of peer-reviewed research. Do us a favor, and tell us in 500 words or less what your major issues with the article are. If you can't do that, please be on your way and let us write an encyclopedia in peace. Skinwalker 17:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Skinwalker, have you read the Organon, Section 64, as I provided it to you above? You have been spreading misinformation. Whig 17:35, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

WDM, certain editors think that unless we state in the article that Homeopathy cures erectile dysfunction, pattern baldness, and all types of cancer, it will be POV. Since there are no reliable sources which can be verified in peer-reviewed articles which confirm anything about Homeopathy, it's hard to state anything that the POV-warriors will approve. I've requested that the article remain protected, but have the tag removed. Thank you for your time. OrangeMarlin 17:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, so much for rubbing a diluted and concussed solution of hair on my head. •Jim62sch• 17:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

That's complete nonsense. Whig 17:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

So's homeopathy, but who's keeping score? •Jim62sch• 22:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

(Not as complete as it might have been if Jim had decided to talk about the ED cure suggestion. Maybe Jim was trying to lighten the tone of this discussion, something sorely needed, I think. Wanderer57 18:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

Yes, I was. Besides, baldness is my bane.  ;) •Jim62sch• 22:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Well clearly no one here understands your stances or problems with the article. That's why I'm asking for you to summarize them briefly here. Wikidudeman 17:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Really? No one? Or just you and a few POV warriors that refuse to understand? Whig 17:30, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Name calling won't accomplish anything. Please just summarize your problems with the article in the way elaborated upon above. Wikidudeman 18:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

"...a few POV warriors that refuse to understand" what? What do people fail to understand (besides your strange meanderings on your user page)? BTW, Wikidudeman and I don't see eye to eye much of the time, but he's hardly a POV warrior. •Jim62sch• 22:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Example name

• Example of explanation of problems
• Example of explanation of problems
• Example of explanation of problems

Wikidudeman 14:29, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam Cuerden

...Well, as I said, I expect this to blow up in our face, but I'll have a go...

• "18th-century medicine" section seems a rather poor introduction to the article, being somewhat light in directly relevant information.
• The "Concepts" section has an unfortunate habit of directly implying Hahnemann was right to decide on X. E.g. "From this, he decided that all effective drugs must produce the symptoms in healthy individuals that are similar to the diseases that the drugs are intended to treat." is poor phrasing from a POV point of view

Adam Cuerden 16:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

(A note about process) My understanding of Wikidudeman's suggestion was that editors should individually set out their points of concern with the article as it stands AND THEN these points could be reviewed by him and others and a revised draft article prepared. I thought this a good suggestion.

Now I confused, once again, because Wikidudeman did not leave the points that Adam raised to speak for themselves. Instead he commented on them, triggering a new round of discussion. I suggest time is needed for other editors to collect their thoughts and offer their points of concern. Wanderer57 19:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

No. This section is for each editor to elaborate on their problems with the article. Clearly stating them once and for all so that everyone can know them. And then other editors comment on them. Wikidudeman 19:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both. Perhaps we can fix them once it's unprotected. Wikidudeman 16:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. I suppose we could just delete 18th century medicine, but that might be excessive. Could move it to the talk page, but with the talk page growing as fast as it is, that's just about the same thing, really. What d'ye think? Adam Cuerden 16:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Please don't do that. There is nothing much wrong with it. Can you more specifically state your problem? Peter morrell 16:58, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It would be excessive. Most of that section explains the development of homeopathy and where it came from. It explains the environment in which it developed and how and why it spread as well. It's quite important to homeopathy. We could just change some of it around to make it more directly relevant to Homeopathy. Though right now I don't see that many problems with it. Wikidudeman 16:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

The first section of the article should really be explaining the concepts that the rest of the article will be using. However, the 18th century medicine section only discusses things that are not mentioned anywhere else. I suppose you could split off homeopathy's influence on conventional medicine to proving, with a bit of POV-balance from the sources cited (The nitroglycerin article, for example, makes it clear that the provings were useful as research, but that homeopaths did not know about nitroglycerin's benefits to the heart). I'm not sure if the rest of it should be there or not. Maybe if we made it a lot shorter, or, alternatively, discussed it more.... Adam Cuerden 17:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with the history section mentioning the history of homeopathy even though other sections don't mention it. Why must other sections mention it exactly? I'm not sure I understand your problems with the section though. Wikidudeman 17:11, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It could be better sourced and reworded something I promised to do way back but didn't. I will look at improving it. thanks Peter morrell 17:20, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam, The idea that an article should explain the terms in the first section(aside from the lead) seems to be an issue of taste opposed to manual of style. I think the article should start with the history of homeopathy, it's origins, the environment in which it developed, etc. Wikidudeman 17:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Alright, but I did rework it a little for clarity and flow. Moved a bit of it discussing provings to the "provings" section, so the reader knows what part of homeopathy is being described. Adam Cuerden 04:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Under dispute POV

I m surprised that the sign under dispute is removed. That means some editors dont want to accept that there is well documented opinion on the talk page different that theirs. I think that this is not respectful for the other editors and it is not in the spirit of the rules of wikipedia. The under dispute sign should be there as long as there is a dispute going on.If someone objects to this idea please explain.--Sm565 02:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to apolozise. I thought that someone from the editors we were arguing in the talk page removed the under dispute tag but actually it was another user (I think) who did not participate in the discussion and gave non reasons for the tag removal from what I see in our talk page.

I do not consider "the article seems fine" a rational explanation since we had agreed to reach a consenus in this oage before any editing. Sorry QuackGur.Please next time try to participate in our discussion. .--Sm565 03:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

put the wrong sign before.--Sm565 04:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for restoring the POV flag. It should remain until all NPOV disputes are resolved. Whig 05:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV dispute - ongoing.

Sorry, I don't have as much time to spend here as I did over the weekend. Instead of rehashing again and again the issues that I and others have with this article in its present form, I will try to make some careful edits to the article and if they are removed we can come back and discuss them here. I may be more infrequent for the next few days, but at least now with the article unlocked we can make some forward progress together instead of arguing. I want to say that I do not recognize a current group of editors to be seeking an NPOV article, but I hope we can resolve this dispute in some mutually agreeable fashion, whether that entails splitting the article into two or more, or some other solution. Whig 05:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

OK. What then do you think is that group of editors seeking? Peter morrell 05:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A Mainstream-Scientific POV, exclusively. Whig 05:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, what are they belly-aching about? That has already been achieved. The article is 50% critique and dismissal. This was supposed to be placed in one section but it shadows everything the article tries to say. It is a goddam mess again. You can't please everyone. So what do you suggest? Peter morrell 06:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

That is, indeed, my point. Whig 06:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

What I suggest is what I said, I'll make some careful edits when I feel comfortable with what I want to do, and if anyone objects we'll come back here. You can do the same or continue talking here. If everyone makes defensible edits, we can have a very good conversation. Whig 06:12, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

However, the mainstream science POV does not really exists. I have never seen in any major organization like WHO website or the others cited references that Science considers homeopathy as a pseudoscience. They say "controversial".--Sm565 07:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we should not put words in their mouths. Whig 10:32, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Would you like to edit that text with a proper citation? Whig 10:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the POV tag again. OrangeMarlin removed it. Please stop removing the tag, it is required until NPOV disputes have been resolved. Whig 10:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't keep edit warring to get a POV tag up without being crystal clear and summarizing what POV you see with the article. Wikidudeman 13:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no edit war. Stop trying to control this discussion. Whig 16:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

If one person adds a tag, another removes it and yet another adds it back then that is automatically an edit war. Wikidudeman 16:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not. Please stop being contentious, the POV tag is required to remain in place until NPOV disputes are resolved. Whig 16:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Peter morrell's edits

I'd be a lot happier if your first reference wasn't shitty random spammy crap off the intarwebz, not to mention the fact that this is probably giving undue weight to your point of view where it is not needed: specific examples are given elsewhere. Moreschi 13:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your POV; where are these alleged 'specific examples elsewhere?' The only point being made is that medicine of that time employed complex mixtures. That is not part of my POV, it is simply how things were as shown by the examples given. Peter morrell 13:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's no big deal. It shouldn't be hard to find a better source for that and I hardly see how giving examples of the substances used has any POV at all. Wikidudeman 13:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Adam, for finally fixing it better than I could. much appreciated. cheers Peter morrell 13:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's alright, but I wish you'd ask about these things first on the talk page, because it was really confusing: It took me four readings to realise Theriac wasn't a homeopathic remedy, but Galenic medicine. And I almost deleted it again when I realised that the remaining source didn't actually cover the correct time period, and the source I had was for ingredients (luckily, I then found that interesting article I used). I am, despite my somewhat ogrish image of late, quite willing to help with finding sources and improvements to the article (it's the circular discussions that annoy me), but a little context helps in sorting things. Adam Cuerden 14:01, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It's OK no harm done, but thanks again anyway. It's now much better and sharper. cheers Peter morrell 14:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

My god, people used to take opium mixed with... viper meat? I suppose Galenic medicine has many more entertaining examples of horrid "cures" like this - I just haven't looked at it in detail. Cheers, Skinwalker 15:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy does that. Uses preparations of Bushmaster viper, Opium, etc. Wikidudeman 15:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but homeopathy ONLY uses single drugs (OK predominantly) so no complex mixtures with 64 ingredients etc. Peter morrell 18:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Plant extracts, such as used in the initial stages of some homeopathic remedies, contain many thousands of different types of molecules. These are by definition complex mixtures. However, once diluted to 30C they only contain one type of molecule - water. I know you doubt that molecules really exist, Peter, but you can't talk about components in drugs without considering molecules. Tim Vickers 22:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:LEAD

Misplaced Pages has many guidelines. Sometimes these get in the way of the process of improving the quality of articles. However, in my experience, there is one guideline that never does, and that is WP:LEAD. It not only gives great advice on how to write leads, but also, implicitly, great advice on how to write articles. Almost every encounter I have had with an article in difficulty has been resolved by applying WP:LEAD. Get the article right first, and then use WP:LEAD to write the lead. The lead should summarize the article. It should cover the most important points in the article, and nothing which is not covered in the article. There should be no big surprises in the article for someone who has read the lead.

The lead of this article does not, currently, summarize it adequately. It does not cover the historical development, the various forms of current practice, the current prevalence, or the legal status, all of which are prominant parts of the article. This may mean that the article needs to be changed. More likely, however, it means the lead needs to be changed. Proposals to shorten the lead to 2 paragraphs for an 80+ K article are absurd.

My own opinion is that this article should be more strident but also more concise in its criticism of homeopathy. "Show, don't tell" is one of the key principles of NPOV. The article should spend more time describing homeopathy in neutral terms, so that the criticism of it as pseudoscience is obvious and does not require so much repetition. However, that is just my view, but I urge you to let WP:LEAD guide you. It is a great guideline. Geometry guy 23:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree. This lead has been cut down and important information has been removed. Wikidudeman 14:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the new Lead, ending with the sentence: "These findings, along with the proscription by homeopaths against conventional medicine and encouragement of a "holistic" approach to health, are consistent with the argument that homeopathy is a sort of quackery." is quite far off from being NPOV. The word "quackery" in particular is a loaded word, and the whole last paragraph, the longest paragraph, is anti-homeopathy.

By the way, when did encouragement of a "holistic" approach to health become evidence of quackery? Wanderer57 20:10, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

POV?

This is the area where ANYONE who thinks that this article has POV can summarize their reasons why. Everyone who thinks that this article is POV, please just summarize your reasons why you think that so that we can start fixing the article appropriately. POV tags aren't meant to stay forever and unless reasons are given and summarized clearly here by those who believe it is POV then the tag must go. I've read the discussions above and I can not determine exactly what changes to make to satisfy those who think that the article is POV so I request that they summarize their reasons here. Thanks. Wikidudeman 14:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The sections on the development of Hahnemann's thought has a habit of implying that the evidence he saw was best explained by his conclusions, with a bit of peacock terminology. A more neutral, though not hostile, portrayal would probably solve most of the scientific editors' objections to the article. Adam Cuerden 14:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a problem of semantics or perception. I don't really see it that way however feel free to tweak it to make it more POV NPOV so it doesn't imply that he was correct. Wikidudeman 14:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to flag this comment right here, Wikidudeman is advocating POV. Whig 18:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

That was a mistake on my part. I meant to say make it more "NPOV". Sorry. Wikidudeman 18:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

No, you were correct the first time. You are trying to make it come out to imply a certain thing that is not supported by citation. Whig 19:05, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm also seeing some POV issues in the lead. The lead has a tendency to overplay the lack of scientific support for homeopathy, often at the cost of actually explaining what homeopathy is. This is a major problem. The last sentence in the first paragraph and the first sentence in the second one are pretty much redundant and could easily be merged or put into the same paragraph. Another problem is that it says that "the scientific community" asserts that there is no evidence water or alcohol retains a memory. This give the impression that there's such a thing as an entire body called the "scientific community" who walk lock step. A better rephrasing would simply be "There is no scientific evidence water retains memory". Wikidudeman 14:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Adam, Tell me what you think of this edit. Is there still the tone that Hahnemann was right in his conclusions? Please let me know. Thanks. Wikidudeman 14:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

(Moved off topic discussions here) Wikidudeman 16:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Of ghettoes and stuff

My only grouse about the article at the moment FWIW is that there seems to be too much critique built into the flow of narrative as it goes along and yet WDM promised some time back not to do that but to place critique in a separate section, what Adam amusingly termed a ghetto. Well, I would prefer that because it seems to me that the article never really gets into second gear; it is always looking over its shoulder for the dark shadow of a criticism to come bellowing down on anything it says. It is suffocated all the way along by critique. The whole thing reads as if it is way too cautious and defensive about saying anything about the subject this article is supposed to be about. Sorry if that offends a few folks but we must try and air our grievances as that is what we have been asked to do. Hope that's OK... let's discuss it then. cheers Peter morrell 19:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The article needs to do it's best to explain homeopathy in a NPOV manner without mixing everything that is said up with criticism. I think that articles flow better without adding so many qualifiers to sentences and without adding so many exta notes every other sentence about how most scientific studies don't support homeopathy. In my opinion the history and treatments and philosophy sections can all be elaborated on without mentioning distinct criticism of homeopathy or remind the reader that scientific studies dispute homeopathy. I think that we're underestimating the intelligence of the common reader if we need to make so many changes in an attempt to convince them of something. I think that any reader interested in the criticism of homeopathy will browse right to that section and any reader interested in learning the basics of the history or philosophy of homeopathy will not want to be reminded every other sentence that homeopathy is no better than a placebo. Wikidudeman 19:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You might want to look at other articles on Pseudoscience and you'll note that all are treated the same way. Additionally, for reasons that I don't quite understand, separate crit sections are considered "bad". •Jim62sch• 19:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

The article can make the medical efficacy(or lack thereof) of homeopathy clear without hurting the explanation of it's basic philosophy or history. I know that when I don't know anything about a subject and read a wikipedia article about it, If I am looking for "criticism" of the subject I will always scroll right down to that section to see it. It's very difficult to have to browse through the whole article reading each sentence essentially argue against itself just to get the jist of criticism. Both the History, philosophy and the methods used in homeopathy can all be discussed from a NPOV manner without ever touching on it's actual effectiveness. Wikidudeman 19:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

<undent> It's a problem with separate "critique" sections that they're inevitably separated from the subject they're dealing with, so each argument has to be restated in order to state the objections. It also means that the "pro" arguments are presented without being put in the context of majority mainstream opinion, and so contravene provisions of NPOV and NPOV/FAQ. Hiding the critique away in its own section means that it's easily overlooked, and its readers get a false impression. It's a matter of balance, but each controversial section must be put in its proper context. .. dave souza, talk 20:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

There really shouldn't be any "Pro" or "Con" arguments. Just "What Homeopaths believe" and then "What Critics believe". Also, As it stands, This section has no critique section. It has a "Scientific analysis" section which isn't really the same thing. Integrating the Scientific analysis section into sections like "History" or "Philosophy" wouldn't really work well IMO as it always leads to "Criticism/Reply/Criticism of reply/Reply to criticism of reply..Etc..Etc" Which makes articles totally incomprehensible. I don't believe for one second that criticism sections or even in this case the "Scientific analysis" section would be overlooked. Wikidudeman 21:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to disagree. This article's responsibility is to present a NPOV of a practice that has been credibly and intensively criticized from an evidence-based standpoint. That NPOV requires clear statements of what critics allege is the problem at each stage of presentation, in tandem with the relevant assertions by advocates and practitioners of homeopathic medicine. WP is not a free host for putting up unchallenged hype. Thus, it would be irresponsible to put all criticisms at the end of the article.

I do, however, agree that the approach of "What Homeopaths believe" and then "What Critics believe" for each significant section of the article is one suitable approach to NPOV. ... Kenosis 23:19, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how putting the "Scientific analysis" of homeopathy in it's own section (second from last) would not allows us to present it in a NPOV manner. Also, How are we supposed to put the "critics" view of the history of homeopathy? Since the criticism of the philosophy and the criticism of the treatment methods are essentially the same, they must be in the same place or we'll face redundancy. This leaves us with the option of either putting the scientific analysis in it's own section (as it is now) or putting it all in one section, either the "treatments" section or the "Philosophy" section, which really wouldn't make any sense at all. Thus the only viable option would be to format it the way it's currently formated. Wikidudeman 23:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes. In order to be a useful presentation and also be in keeping with WP:NPOV, pro and con, and assertions of experimental proof of efficacy as versus assertions of "no valid correlation in properly controlled studies", along with other issues involving opposing POVs, seem to need to be at least somewhat intermixed throughout the article, even in the section currently titled "Medical and scientific analysis". Remember that homeopathic advocates claim a certain degree of empirical support, critics claim "placebo" and "false hope", and, for example, both the US Department of Health and UK NHS have weighed in on this too. Last time I checked, this is already more-or-less how the WP article balances the pros and cons of this controversial practice of homeopathic medicine. ... Kenosis 01:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it actually true that criticism of the philosophy and the criticism of the treatment methods are essentially the same? Haven’t the treatment methods changed since the philosophy was formed 200 years ago? If they have not, that is a pretty damning statement about homeopathy. Wanderer57 00:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

On removing the under dispute flag without giving reasons

Do you realize that removing the under dispute flag without trying to reach a consensus using rational arguments and reliable references but using banners, you totally discredit your selves ? Serious readers who will try to investigate the subject they will not take you seriously if they decide to just take a look at the talk page and see the way you argue. Unless you think that wikipedia is for middle school students who want to copy quickly some info for their homework. Please stop doing it and accept that some people disagree with you and have taken the time to explain why.Try to do the same. It is more healthy I assure you. Best wishes.--Sm565 20:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is for middle school students. It's also for anyone else who wants it. Seriously, this argumentation you are trying to make is pointless. There needs to be an actionable dispute ongoing for a tag to be in place on the main page. Certainly there is a lot of complaining here, but no one has offered a specific dispute of wording or facts, so I think you are the one who needs to do some accepting "that some people disagree with you and have taken the time to explain why". ScienceApologist 21:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you dont read the talk page.Here is why.

--Sm565 23:39, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Good try, but no cigar.

User:ScienceApologist continues to remove the POV tag. I do not want to revert repeatedly. Please someone else restore the tag, so that we can continue this civil discussion. Whig 01:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing to discuss. It is clear that the relevant medical and scientific communities views the iodiocy of homeopathy as pseudoscience. We have demonstrated it with plenty of citations. The offered rebuttal is to third rate journals and inconclusive studies. NEXT! ScienceApologist 01:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Your POV is noted. Whig 02:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted ScienceApologist's edit, which not only removed the POV tag but restored the false POV claim at issue below. Whig 02:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

False POV claim

The article states, "Homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since its theory states that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers"."

I have tried to restate this claim as follows:

"Some common homeopathic potencies are inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since the statistical chance of one atom of the original substance remaining in solution is vanishingly small beyond about 11C."

Some editing may be helpful to make this clearer, but the original claim is false. Spirit-like medicinal powers was a phrase used hundreds of years ago by Hahnemann, that does not mean all homeopaths believe that today, and furthermore I have already demonstrated at least one who does not. Whig 00:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I have reworded this sentence. It now reads "Homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since its theorists state that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers" If you wish other references can be added showing other prominent homeopathic theorists such as Kent making similar claims, but since Hahnemann is the most prominent of all this is not really necessary. Tim Vickers 00:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Which theorists? Just Hahnemann? All of them? Cite please. It is really necessary. Whig 00:32, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have edited your language to make it factually semi-accurate. "Homeopathy is inconsistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, since its original theorist stated that extreme dilution makes drugs more powerful by enhancing their "spirit-like medicinal powers"."

Not that it's even an accurate characterization of Hahnemann's fundamental views. He might have made some extraordinary claims, but he also made some quite ordinary ones. Whig 00:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I added a reference to Kent's views and the set of review lectures by Dudgeon. Kent's views on dilution were even more extreme than Hahnemann's. Can you find a prominent Homeopathic theorist who argues that dilution makes drugs less powerful? That is the reference you need to find to disprove the general statement. Tim Vickers 00:46, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't have to disprove the statement. You have to prove the statement. That's the burden. Whig 00:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Whig, not all modern major homeopaths use the term "spirit-like medicinal powers" Vithoulkas for example. FOr example Vithoulkas says.

Homeopathy uses a type of energy unleashed through the process of potentization . The fact is that at this moment we do not have conclusive evidence of what the nature of this energy is.

User TimVickers is right it is not consistent with the laws of chemistry and physics - if we suppose that scientists know them all. --Sm565 01:05, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Even if we took a poll and every one of us agreed that homeopathy as a whole was not consistent with the laws of chemistry and physics, and I would demur based upon my reading thus far, we would not be permitted to insert that POV into the article. We could quote somebody who said that, however.

If you want to incorporate this Vithoulkas into the statement somehow, go ahead, but I'd never heard of him before you and maybe he's a quack. Whig 01:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think quacks are published by Grove Press easily. but its worth looking into and decide.

However, the sentence "homeopathy as a whole is not consistent with the laws of chemistry and physics is inaccurate. Most of the meta analyses in clinical trials show a therapeutic effect. The fact that we cannot explain its mechanism does not mean that it does not exist. Take Aspirin. It was the most frequently prescribed drug in conventional medicine and until few years ago, and no one had any idea how it worked.

Therefore, it could be more precise to state that scientists cannot explain the phenomenon, or the effect with their current knowledge. But the therapeutic effect exists and it is measurable and recorded in scientific papers even with the placebo trials ( not always the best tool to test Homeopathy ).

So, I agree with you that this statement "homeopathy as a whole is not consistent with the laws of chemistry and physics" is not appropriate and it should be modified. --Sm565 02:08, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Please feel free to make or suggest a specific edit to the article. Whig 02:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

The bottom line here, is only Hahnemann can be said to have invoked the phrase, "spirit-like medicinal powers." Only Hahnemann can be attributed. If others said similar things, quote them, or paraphrase in a way that does not imply all homeopaths hold this precise belief. Whig 02:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Hahnemann's quote is a simple summary of his beliefs, which are shared still amongst homeopaths in general. Find me a quote of a single homeopathic theorist who does not agree with him that diluting remedies makes them more powerful. Find me a quote of a homeopath stating that dilution weakens the medicinal powers of remedies and I will agree with you that this statement doesn't apply to all. Tim Vickers 03:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't have to find a quote. You have the burden of proof. As I keep informing you. Whig 03:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Since your only objection is the attribution of these precise words, rather than their meaning, I'm willing to compromise by stating what we all agree homeopaths believe and attributing Hahnemann's reasoning for why this might be. Tim Vickers 03:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a negotiation. I do like your new wording better, but it still needs work. This is not the only POV sentence in the article. It's not close to being NPOV. There remain many issues which have been discussed in the foregoing talk and other NPOV issues which may not yet have been addressed. There is no consensus that NPOV disputes have ended, and you should not unilaterally remove the POV tag. Whig 03:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree Whig. NOPV issues have not been addressed properly; potentization is the term I think.Not dilution.--Sm565 03:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC) --Sm565 03:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've made a first pass at it, I think it still needs a lot more work, but I hope it's an improvement, and rather than trying to keep tweaking it myself, I'd just as soon leave it there for discussion and modification consistent with the NPOV that we're striving for now. Whig 04:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Sm565, I encourage you to correct my wording if it is in error. Whig 04:03, 10 October 2007 (UTC): I will do.--Sm565 04:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Isnt removing the under dispute flag against the rules if consensus has not been reached?

I will do; but I have to wait for user Orangemarlin; maybe since he removed the under dispute flag wants to participate in the discussion.--Sm565 04:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

No valid explanation was given for removing the flag.--Sm565 04:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, many many WP participants have been involved in bringing the article to its current state. Myself, I've gotten shit from both sides of the "equation" here. But the "equation" is not merely pro and con. It involves many aspects of people who depend on the handle "homeopathy" to make a living, a few who actually make a living being skeptics, researchers who may or may not actually be paid money for doing "objective" research, researchers who are definitely paid but who may or may not be "objective", and a whole host of other POV slants on the topic of homeopathy. Inserting a POV tag at this stage of the article's development would generally require a stronger warrant than mere disagreement about how the presently irreconcilable POVs are distritbuted in the article. That, at least in my view, is what the talk page is for. ... Kenosis 05:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Did you see that the article is not supported by its cited references and its POV? --Sm565 05:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I asked 4 questions a week ago and I did not get an answer in all of them. If someone want to comment I would like to hear your opinion. .--Sm565 06:01, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

RFC on Homeopathy

Template:RFCsci NPOV dispute is not being respected. 05:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Appendices

Can we please place all critiques into appendices? then the article can have an uninterrupted voice to speak about the subject without constant interruption all along the line. At every point where a criticism is made place a tag directing the reader to read a more balanced view and the critique by science and conventional medicine. Then the article can be read as one continuous flow of info about the subject the article is supposed to be about: homeopathy, without the numerous interruptions as it now stands. A tag at the head of the article can also advise readers to read the critique section as well as the text body in order to get a balanced view. Can we have some idea of who would support this idea? thank you Peter morrell 06:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the article should be split in some fashion. There should be a space for an article on homeopathy according to homeopaths, and that article should also direct readers to criticism, and vice-versa. The header Homeopathy article might end up being a smaller one with mainly links to those articles. Whig 06:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a bad idea, and probably against policy. Adam Cuerden 06:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

What policy? This is done all over Misplaced Pages. Whig 06:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to be clear, all articles must be written from NPOV. That is absolute and non-negotiable. I am not asking for a pro-Homeopathy article. That would be absurd and as wrong as an anti-Homeopathy article. But an article which is about Scientific critiques of homeopathy can describe those critiques, and another on Homeopathy which is descriptive of the subject itself. Whig 06:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Although the entire Manual of Style should be followed, it is not completely necessary at this level.
2. ^ Where in-line citations are provided, they should give proper attribution using either Harvard references or the cite.php footnotes method, but not both in the same article. Science-based articles should follow the Scientific citation guidelines.
3. This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required by WP:FAC; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic, and broad overviews of large topics to be listed.
4. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of constructive editing should be placed on hold.
5. A lack of images does not disqualify the article from GA status.
6. ^ "Similia similibus curentur (Like cures like)". Creighton University Department of Pharmacology. Retrieved 2007-08-20.
7. ^ Cite error: The named reference nccamnih was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
8. ^ Cite error: The named reference homhist1 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
9. ^ Cite error: The named reference nhspseudo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. ^ Cite error: The named reference amapseudo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
11. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid11416076 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
12. Altunç U, Pittler MH, Ernst E (2007). "Homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments: systematic review of randomized clinical trials". Mayo Clin Proc. 82 (1): 69–75. PMID 17285788.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
13. Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann's "Organon Of Medicine" translated by Dudgeon Fifth Edition § 269
14. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid16125589 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
15. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid9243229 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
16. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid8554846 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
17. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid11316508 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
18. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid8255290 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
19. ^ Cite error: The named reference pmid1376282 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
20. Altunç U, Pittler MH, Ernst E (2007). "Homeopathy for childhood and adolescence ailments: systematic review of randomized clinical trials". Mayo Clin Proc. 82 (1): 69–75. PMID 17285788.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
21. Christian Friedrich Samuel Hahnemann's "Organon Of Medicine" translated by Dudgeon Fifth Edition § 269

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