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Law of Attraction -- patience, please

Hi, i got your message asking me to add back that which i had removed in the Law of Attraction article, but i am still working on it. Please check later and add whatever fact tags you deem necessary at that time. I am trying to work with what was there and to tighten up the article to reflect actual English language use of the term, with less emphasis on what ancient people might have meant. cat 07:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Why did you remove it in the first place? Were you distracted? Why don't you add it back yourself? This is all very strange to me. What if I hadn't seen your changes? I had partially fixed the problem with that sentence, but someone reverted my changes and didn't add them back. I think it's not good to remove tags that require citation; at least not without mentioning on the talk page that you've done so. A.Z. 07:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I was rewriting and i wanted a clear field. Like i said, please be patient -- i was not simply fixing bad grammar or spelling, i was rewriting the section with new sentences and did not want fragments of old material in my way. When i completed the section, i added fact tags as i thought fit. Please look it over now and feel free to add as many more citation tags as you wush. Please assume good faith. cat Catherineyronwode 08:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

thanks

Ok, if its a problem with the articles, then let me overuse them for a while. Thanks anyways. But my main concern is to talk the point, which i think is the primary. Lara_bran 13:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

How'bout this  ? Lara_bran 16:29, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that the addition of the last "the" was quite an improvement. The others are OK, but some of them could be omitted without causing the text to look weird.

The article on articles says that "a definite article (English the) is used before singular and plural nouns that refer to a particular member of a group." When you talk about a specific text message, then you should use "the", as in "the text message looks great". If you are not talking about a specific text message, then don't use the article: "I think text messages look great".

When you said, for example, "You are spamming the talk page", you were referring to a specific talk page. If the person were spamming many talk pages, you could have said "you are spamming talk pages". I hope I could help. a.z. 03:59, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by OK?, i had thought grammar is either 0 or 1. Another thing to tell you, they tagged "neutrality dispute" on every "sexist" article top. Conservatives, grr.. Lara_bran 04:08, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Grammar is not either 0 or 1. Many things are neither right nor wrong, many things do not clearly make things better or worse. a.z. 04:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Your examples were singular and plural, i know grammar rules like definite article, but while using i miss. This is mainly because no other language i use has something called article at all. Today's class is over ;) Lara_bran 04:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

OK :-) Only one more thing: your sentence looks better with yet another the: "To keep these least intrusive I suggest to keep the text message the same as earlier." a.z. 04:20, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Your fact tag on Love

Just a quick heads up, I reverted an edit by 96.224.212.107 (talk · contribs) who added it very recently (obviously opinion), so your edit (the fact tag) got wiped out in the process. Cheers. =) --slakr 02:42, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know :-) A.Z. 02:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Kinky!

I just used the editor tool listed on my userpage to investigate what articles you have been editing. I have to say that the names of the articles were a turn on all on their own :P ♥ Lundiaka 03:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

:-) A.Z. 01:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

MedCab

You are listed as involved here. Dyskolos 18:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Unofficial policy

You requested further information relating to the behaviour of Misplaced Pages admins towards people who self-identify as pedophiles. All members who have done this have been indefinitely blocked. Other members who identify as pedophiles elsewhere have not been blocked.

There was some debate after Fred Bauder and Jimbo decked a few peds:

This was probably a contributing factor to the banning of notorious "problem editor", Jim Burton. Any following accounts that edit in similar patterns are now widely suspected to be pedophile sympathisers, and many have been banned for such reasons, or for largely unsupported socking allegations.

If you would like deeper insight, please provide an e mail.

Dyskolos 07:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Dyoh

I don't know what it means that "this template is clearly trying to look like an official thing." I also do not understand what your notion of "improving" is. You have "improved" a relatively straightforward statement to a horrendously lawyeresque and ridiculous text that no-one in their right mind could possibly want to use. If that is your aim, you did a good job.

In the recommended usage (see the Usage section), editors using the template sign it. That implies that they endorse any opinions expressed therein, and it is silly then to change the text to make these editors look like they are gutless, attempting to escape responsibility for their edits by hiding behind weasel words and some unidentified supermajority, in the face of which they are helpless. So that is what I meant by "If you don't like it, just don't use it". If you don't endorse the text as it is, don't use that text. If you do endorse it, use it if you feel it is appropriate.

What you are doing here is similar to someone who does not agree with the verifiability criterion changing the text of {{unreferencedsection}} by adding complicated sentences about how some people feel that claims should be referenced, and that, unfortunately, they are in the majority, etcetera. We know that you don't agree with the RD guidelines, on which you've spent more than 10% of your edits, but by taking that out on this template, you create the inescapable impression that you are making a point, never mind if doing so is disruptive.  --Lambiam 18:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I reverted my changes now, and made another change. a.z. 19:57, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I consider your latest change an improvement.  --Lambiam 22:31, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to inform you, in case you did not know already

Be more careful about not promoting pedophilia. Even if you say that you are not a pedophile, consistently showing that you have pro-pedophile viewpoints is dangerous. You must not only say that you are not a pedophile, but you must also not show that you are a supporter of pro-pedophile activism. For a precedent, Jim Burton never did say that he was was a supporter of pro-pedophile activism, but was indefblocked for "a pattern of promoting pedophilia." Even if it is true, the fact is that saying "adult-child sex does not harm minors" is very contrarian and will be interpreted as POV-pushing, if not by me or other members, at least by Jimbo Wales. You seem to be a good contributor, and I think that Misplaced Pages would be harmed if you were banned, so I hope you take this advice well, and at least try to work with the societal consensus in order to avoid being blocked by Jimbo or some other admin. --A 02:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your concern with me and your advice. I feel I should do something about all of this, such as suggesting that there be a written guideline saying what people can and can not say, so they can avoid being banned, or asking Jimbo on his talk page what he thinks of my edits (or asking other administrators, and non-administrators). I personally think it would be utterly unfair for me to be banned for any edits like those I made during my recent period of involvement with pedophilia-related articles. I am afraid of being banned, though. Saying that someone is a "POV pusher", by the way, seems to have been, most of the times I have seen this, a demonization. a.z. 02:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate input from others on this. a.z. 02:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

This is a quote from Jimbo Wales.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User:Sam_Korn/RFC_April_2006&diff=prev&oldid=46850915

And I think the serious policy issue that should come out of this is not about where we should draw the line, but about what we should do in cases like this while we are deciding where the line should be. It is important to monitor the fact that POV pushers (in this case pedophiles) will work hard to create 'facts on the ground' that abuse our default openness and trust. I do not think I can emphasize this enough: this is not about 'where to draw the line' but rather 'what to do while we are working on figuring that out'. Deletion is absolutely appropriate in this case to prevent POV pushers from setting the default assumption that we have to have 80% support (or whatever the bogus vote count of the day is thought to be, since We Do Not Vote) just to delete their nonsense.--Jimbo Wales 02:02, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

In this case, Jimbo was saying some other things that I find outrageous (I do not think that people who like lolicon are automatically pedophiles) but he also made accusations of pedophilia and POV-pushing.--A 02:49, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

To say that people who like lolicon are automatically pedophiles is like saying that people who like yaoi are automatically male homosexuals, while many heterosexual girls like it. a.z. 03:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A suggestion: perhaps you may find this useful. I never used it before, so I do not know how well it works.--A 03:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I have used it after my failed RfA. I was thinking of starting another one. a.z. 03:03, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

A.Z. The simplest way to avoid picking up a block is to adhere closer to WP:SOAP and WP:NOT. We don't need to know your personal opinions on paedophilia, as discussing them on Misplaced Pages does not improve the encyclopaedia. In short, if you keep your own counsel on controversial subjects there there is no way others can misinterpret those. If you stick to discussing sourced content, rather than personal opinion, you should be just fine Rockpocket 04:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Rockpocket. People always talk about their personal opinions on many subjects on Misplaced Pages. Some people even make declarations of bias (see Eloquence's user page on meta).

If no one were allowed to give any personal opinion on controversial subjects, I would be OK with not talking about my personal opinions as well, but that is not the case.

Although I would accept it, I would think that it would be a bad policy not to allow people to talk about their personal opinions. One reason for that is that I believe it's important that Misplaced Pages editors be a community. I feel it's important for the encyclopedia that editors get to know each other better.

Getting to know each other better could even directly help in content disputes. Not always a rational discussion focusing on the subject of an article is the best way to resolve them. I think that some times it may be more useful and effective to find out what personal motivations make the other editor feel that their version is better, so we can talk about those motivations, and the editor may realize that the reason why they want to add something to an article is not to help the encyclopedia. A.Z. 22:41, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree with you, A.Z. I'm just saying that if you keep you personal opinion about non-wiki issues to yourself, there is no way anyone could reasonably accuse you of being "pro" or "anti" anything. When the issue is a contentious one like child abuse, it may be in your best interests to insulate yourself from the possible consequences. The best edits, IMO, are the ones you read without having any idea of the agenda or opinion of the person that make them. Some people feel the need to extol their position on everything. That is up to them. Rockpocket 00:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

re: format in the RfD discussion

Good evening. I have reverted the change you made to the formatting of one discussion in the RfD page. Deletion discussions are deliberately standardized on bulleted lists. This serves several purposes. First, it makes tracing the attribution of the comments easier because you invariably have one signature per bullet. (You can use other indentation within the bullet or <br>s to break up a long comment but it's important to keep that one-signature per bullet relationship.) Second, it makes it much easier for subsequent readers to keep track of who is responding to which comment. If I indent a comment with one bullet, I can be assumed to have read the full discussion to date but I'm responding to the original nomination. On the other hand, if I use two bullets, I'm explicitly responding to the prior bullet. Remember that it's easy for you to track because you're an active participant in the discussion - but deletion discussions have to be tracable by lots of other readers (especially including the closing admin).

I also removed the sub-headers that you added to that particular discussion. Headers are used in deletion discussions to delineate the various deletion discussions. When you added the sub-headings (and in particular when you titled a sub-heading with the link Flat earth, it created the impression that there was a malformed nomination. Sub-headings would work fine if the deletion discussion were being conducted in isolation but all of our deletion discussions are conducted on shared pages (or are transcluded together so they display as if on a shared page). Sub-headings create a great deal of confusion in the XfD discussions.

I tried hard not to change the meaning or attribution when converting the format back. If I made a mistake, especially in the assignment of your comments and my assumptions about what comments you were responding to, please correct it. Thanks. Rossami (talk) 07:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

One more thing

I don't know if you are really 19 and from Brazil. It baffles me that you add cite tags to the article when it is common knowledge that the public is going bonkers about pediophilia. See this Google search. Really going to bed, I have 5 hours to sleep, get ready and out. Jeeny 05:30, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

It isn't common knowledge to me. I would like to understand more what is going on in the US and in other countries regarding this issue. I do know people are worried about child abusers, and there has been a reaction, but I would like to learn more. I think there shouldn't be only one sentence on Misplaced Pages about the unpopularity of pro-pedophile activism and about the reaction to it. I think there should be an article about it: a referenced article without unprecise words, saying what is going on, what laws are being enacted, what the media say, what the people think, etc. A.Z. 05:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I saw your link now. You think the public is going bonkers about pedophilia in Brazil? We aren't. There is barely anything about it in the paper. I read the Folha de São Paulo every day, and Veja (magazine) every week. I also read news on the Internet, so I'm not someone uninformed. Just ask any Brazilian friend of yours, if you don't believe me. A.Z. 05:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

See this link. The word pedophilia was used in Brazil's biggest newspaper four times in the month of September, 2007. One instance was about Madeleine McCann, and the other three instances were about pedophilia on Orkut. A.Z. 05:47, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I should add that, even if it were common knowledge that, in the US, the public is going bonkers about pedophilia, this wouldn't mean that an article's introduction should say that "the public" is going bonkers about pedophilia, without specifying that the information is about the American public. A.Z. 05:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This subject, as well as editors are being watched by out-side agencies re:pro-pediophia on Misplaced Pages. I can't find the link right now, but you could end up being blocked by editing these articles as much as you have. Also, since you say you are not uninformed, I do not understand your questions or surprise. Cheers. Jeeny 04:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Jeeny, I don't know exactly to what questions and surprise you are referring. I often make questions and am surprised, about a lot of things. I pointed out that I am not uninformed as a response to what appeared to me to be an accusation that I am not Brazilian. Your link to Google was interpreted to me as "look, if you were really Brazilian, you would know about the unpopularity of pedophilia, because it is so unpopular in Brazil as well".

Please, find "the link". Although it seems to be a link that I would not like to have on my userpage, it seems also crucial for me to understand what you are referring to.

By the way, I know pedophilia is unpopular in many places. I think that sentence on the article just isn't helping anyone. There should be more precise information. Instead of saying "it's unpopular to consider this a valid movement", one can say things such as "The state of Texas allows for people found guilty of child sexual abuse to be executed since . This was a response to ". Of course that last information is not unpopularity of regarding the movement as valid. For such information to be properly referenced, I think there should have been a poll asking people if they think that it is OK to consider pro-pedophile activism to be a valid movement.

And, please, Jeeny, don't come to my talk page to say "You could end up being blocked by editing these articles as much as you have. I have a link, actually, but I lost it. Bye." If you want to talk about Jimbo, about other administrators, about people who were banned, that's fine, but the way you phrased it just scared me. Cheers. A.Z. 04:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Dyskolos

I would like Dyskolos's talk page to be unprotected, so I can post that they were a good editor and that they will be missed, and that they were acting in good faith and their block was not due to trying to push a POV nor due to disruption, but just because they were using a proxy. A.Z. 04:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like my own pony and a small island. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 05:05, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd give both as presents to you, if I could. A.Z. 05:56, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The first two words in the revised block log read: "pro-pedophilia troll." I'm not sure how you could mistake that for "good editor," etc. Your note, in fact, is so far fetched it, in itself may be suspected of being a provocation. Request denied. El_C 07:39, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't seen the block log. Someone dares to write "pro-pedophilia troll" and you say I am the one making provocations! You block someone you have a personal feud with, and I'm the one making provocations! A.Z. 02:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have no personal feud with him, or anyone. Take it to the admin who issued the block. You should really pay more attention. El_C 03:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Misplaced Pages:Users' noticeboard

Misplaced Pages:Users' noticeboard, a page you created, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Users' noticeboard and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Misplaced Pages:Users' noticeboard during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Into The Fray /C 21:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Not only have you totally diverted the topic from the query you had but if any other input is needed on this issue it can only come from admins as only they can actually look to see if the material is oversighted, SqueakBox 21:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)