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:And please see ]. Do not refactor a discussion; you may add your own comments if you wish, but do not edit or re-order the contributions which other editors have made to the discussion. --] <small>] • (])</small> 15:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
:And please see ]. Do not refactor a discussion; you may add your own comments if you wish, but do not edit or re-order the contributions which other editors have made to the discussion. --] <small>] • (])</small> 15:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
::If you have comments to add, do so in such a way that it does not appear that you are refactoring a submission to AfD. Namely, in line with everyone else. -- ~~~~
Ludvikus is busy in real life and may not respond swiftly to queries.
This is a Misplaced Pages user talk page. This is not an encyclopedia article or the talk page for an encyclopedia article. If you find this page on any site other than Misplaced Pages, you are viewing a mirror site. Be aware that the page may be outdated and that the user in whose space this page is located may have no personal affiliation with any site other than Misplaced Pages. The original talk page is located at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ludvikus/Archive_2.
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The Protocols
Hi! I've fixed navigation bar. If you'll need any help with the template you can ask me and I'll see what I can do. And thanks for the barnstar. M0RD00R18:11, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I guess the difference is that (<br />) is in XHTML and (<br>) is in HTML. I really hope that explains something to you, because it does not say a lot to me :), because I'm absolute n00b in any of those languages myself. M0RD00R17:48, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Archived
I've archived everything except the material above. Hope this is what you expected. If not, let me know and I will undo it. Banno21:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
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Hi Ludvikus, I contributed to a discussion on this subject. I hope you will accept this in good faith (from a fellow new-user): there are no policies on conduct there - it is pretty well up to you to adopt the tenets of good faith. It is different to this place, I suppose you are becoming aware of that. I look forward to your contribs, here and there. Regards, Cygnisinsignis19:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
I endorse most of your position, I am unconcerned if you have not considered the tract older than it is. Nor am I assuming a firm positon, I want to communicate two things to you. Please heed the suggestions made by others, it will not be solved yesterday - slow down. Secondly, have you ever considered that your energy promotes the document as much anything? Regards, Cygnisinsignis20:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd like to hear some more from you. I'm aware of what happened in 1903, 1905, 1906, ..., 1920, ..., but am unaware of what you meant by Ancient Times (I'm paraphrasing you). Could you explain? Peace, --Ludvikus 14:35, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I moved the comment here, source is a library. It shares a common theme with other libraries; if you talk too much, a very stern looking person will come and say one word. Or point to a sign with that word displayed - with an exclamation point! Am I being too obtuse, am I beating around the bush - well, yes. I want you to happen on the answer yerself ... As for forgery scholarship, I'm not going to add energy to that. Your misquote (paraphrasing), is a reference to several documents to emerge in europe, prior to the revolution. If you want the information that will show the document you are serving is an feeble adaptation of this, I can forward the scans of the literature. I estimate this will be around $45 US dollars in my costs, no charge for my labour. Alternatively you can go and look it up at a library. Don't forget to note the tranquil atmosphere, and the effect your persistent questioning has on the people there. Cygnisinsignis18:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Morning Post
Talk page apparently got lost during the moves. Currently it is here . Now administrator needs to delete current talk page to make a room for a move. M0RD00R14:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
OK. But why hide behind your new pseudonym? You are misleading others into believing that there are more than one editor who subscribes to your position! --Ludvikus22:40, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Who's hiding? My signature is linked to my user pages. I've been using that signature for years now and I don't feel any obligation to change just because some people don't understand the mechanics of Misplaced Pages. I have considered changing my username to my signature, but it is too inconvenient to type the ≠ symbol. I think most editors don't have a problem figuring out the connection between signatures and usernames. older ≠ wiser23:09, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
Umm, no. That is not at all the case. Please compare the revision history of both pages. I've presented a simplified timeline on my talk page. older ≠ wiser03:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I noticed that you added this report to WP:AN/3RR. Now, I understand why you placed that there, but that isn't quite the proper page. I'm actually not sure exactly where to put it, but my best guess would be on WP:AN/I, the Administrator's noticeboard for Incidents in general. Regards, You Can't See Me!05:24, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Amazing article, thanks! Someone (non-identified dipper-in) has removed your sentence about Lacey's comment. If instead of saying 'it is probably true that...' you simply wrote 'Lacey states...' then no-one could argue with the statement or its suitability for WP. However I can't see at a glance who Lacey is, and that statement would want a footnote. All the best, Sedgefoot06:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know who Lacey is either, that's what I'm saying. Who does? I was just browsing this interesting article you'd been working on and noticed when I made this post to you that an IP number editing had removed a significant sentence from it. I wondered if it was because no-one had referenced Lacey. So I thought I'd better give you the tip-off that Lacey had taken a run-out powder, so to speak, and his quotation with him. I was intrigued by the article and trying to help. Best wishes, Sedgefoot22:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Now I know what you were both talking about! It's this :
CULTURAL DESK
BOOKS OF THE TIMES
By WALTER GOODMAN
FORD: The Men and the Machine. By Robert Lacey. Illustrated. 778 pages. Little, Brown. $24.95.
FORD is a workmanlike assemblage by an English writer of a great American family saga.
Robert Lacey carries us briskly through almost a century of corporate fortunes
(Model A, Model T, Mustang) and misfortunes (Edsel, Pinto).
He makes admirably clear the technical and marketing considerations
that have gone into each new or revised model
and provides plenty of opportunity along the way to view the ...
July 9, 1986
I do not, and would not, call another another user a Jew-hater on Misplaced Pages. However, I am not responsible for the "suggestions" that come out of the use of antisemitic expressions. --Ludvikus15:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't bother answering both places. As I already said elsewhere: Yes, you are exactly responsible for those "suggestions", and the next one will be your last. --jpgordon15:45, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
For a Wikipedian who says that we are responsible for our "suggestions" why do you suggest a threat above? Are you trying to scare me? What do you suggest by "the next one will be your last"? You and I know each other as Wikipedians. I am completely surprised by your use of such an uncivil expression. It clearly suggests a threat. Do you not see that? And it is provocative and inflammitory. It is not the way for one to get someone to conform to Misplaced Pages rules. And I am especially surprised that it comes from you, whom I recognize as a Wikipedian for some time back. Please clarify yourself. Are you trying to scare me with that suggested threat of yours? --Ludvikus15:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Scare you? I guess so; if fear of being blocked will stop you from making personal attacks, then that's what I'm intending. But perhaps appealing to your desires will work better: If you desire to continue editing Misplaced Pages, you need to stop suggesting anti-semitism on the part of those who you are having edit disagreements with. --jpgordon16:36, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
That's much, much better, JP. Thanks very much for your clarification. Much appreciated, Cowboy Gordon - you look good sitting on your horse on your Homepage. But should I have said "high horse" and "get of of it"? --Ludvikus16:46, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like you to try to delete the Original research on it. I maintain that Misplaced Pages requires that we state what scholars said - it's not a place where Wikipedians should speculate "Why so many Jews were Bolsheviks." Thanks. --Ludvikus00:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't see the antisemitism in the article.
I have this feeling that you see the term Bolsheviks as being pejorative. Is that the case ? I am a secular Jew and have no more problem with being referred to as a Bolshevik or a communist even though that is not how I would describe myself. Do you have the same problem with the moniker Jewish philosophers or Jewish celebrities. ? Danny Weintraub : Albion moonlight07:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
You're completely mistaken. The fact is that Jewish Bolshevism is an Antisemitic expression, and historicall speaking, it was used so exclusively; it has no Marxist, Communist, or Bolshevik meaning whatsoever. Do you not know that? --Ludvikus10:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
No, that is a new one on me. But I intend to do a bit of wiki and google research on it. I want to know how widespread that view is. I do know that a lot of Jews hate anything remotely similar to Marxism, especially Stalinism . Albion moonlight 23:59, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Danny Weintraub. : Albion moonlight06:26, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
You mean: "One Jew is to many"? Are you really Jewish? Would you have liked to work as Stalin's assistant? Do you like the cold - would you mind living in Siberia? How many Englishman are Stalinists, any why? Do Frenchman love Stalin? Are these questions important? --Ludvikus12:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes I really am Jewish but your implication seems to be that you believe your assertions about Jewish Bolshevism being is common knowledge. I do not believe that it is common knowledge. If you believe that it is perhaps you should create a request for comment on the articles talk page. I think that once you realize that it isn't common knowledge even amongst Jews you may change your mind and realize that you may be pushing a Pov.
If you referred to the other editors as being antisemitic you are guilty of making a personal attack on other Wikipedians and should apologize. If you did not make such an accusation then you may have a legitimate complaint. If you moved an article without consensus then you broke a rule. I have done nothing to deserve your ire. I hope you manage to work things out with Jpgordan. : Danny Weintraub : Albion moonlight15:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
re. Troll
The thing is, an internet troll on wikipedia is just an internet troll on wikipedia. We don't need a Troll (Misplaced Pages) article. The header text about wikipedia trolls should be more than sufficient. Apologies if I came across as impolite- you may find that a bit of politeness/smarminess can come in handy to get around stubborn people when editors who are particularly idealistic about wikipedia get dragged in. Not that I've actually learnt that lesson by now. Nimmo11:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I've just been wading my way through policy pages, and I can't find anything explictly stating what I believe I've seen a number of times in admin descisions, which is that self-referential pages talking about Misplaced Pages are heavily discouraged. If you feel that there needs to be more information on wikipedia trolls, a link on the internet troll page to WP:TROLL might be the best option, if you're willing to defend it. Apologies for the talk page mess, hope you have a good day. Nimmo12:05, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah yeah, that was a bit of vandalism on the part of my mates while they were a bit pissed that I mirrored to my userpage. Could look a bit suspect. Have noticed that merge discussion before, probably will take another look later. Nimmo13:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
The problem is that a stub type for antisemitica is not viable. The permanent categories should suffice for that. Would these go under history, or perhaps just non-fiction? Why wouldn't they be political? Her Pegship (tis herself)20:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I understand that these works fall into the category of controversial literature. What I don't know is which of these stub categories would be more appropriate than Category:Political book stubs:
If you wish to propose a new stub category and template, please follow the following procedure:
Check at Category:Stub categories to make sure that your proposed new stub does not already exist.
List it at the top of the current month's section, under a header, like the ones shown (if any). Sign it with a datestamp (~~~~).
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Find a good number of stub articles, as many as you can, that will fit that tag. Each of these articles can be:
currently be marked with stub;
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I've got no opinion on whether this list should exist - I've nominated it purely procedurally to get a consensus before you start expanding it, as - while it's certainly a potentially valid list - there's also potential for it to become a permanent edit-war battleground, and I'd like to get a broader consensus before you - or anyone else - start adding names to it. — iridescent(talk to me!)13:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I've replied more fully on the AfD discussion so others can see it - the problem's not with the people who undoubtedly would be included, but with the permanent "George Bush once joined a golf club that didn't allow Jews, that makes him an antisemite" POV edit warring that's likely to stem from it — iridescent(talk to me!)14:19, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Even if that qualification regarding an incident you describe would be deemed as antisemitic, no one in their right mind would say that "George Bush was a notable antisemite," or that he was a "notorious one." Substantial antisemitic conduct is the intent of the qualification. A "hymie" remark (you know who I mean) is insufficient to qualify someone as notable or notorious on the issue. --Ludvikus14:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
These are not areas of a particular interest to me. However, I appreciate that homosexuals get abused, and convicts often suffer undeservedly. But are we goung to give in to the irrational? As encyclopedists we have an obligation to the truth. You are not yet making any headway with me with your suggestions, or implications, that we exercise self-censorships because we're going to be unable to defend ourselves against all the idiots in the world. Best to you, Ludvikus15:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Conversion to Category
You might want to run it past User:BrownHairedGirl - in my experience, she's generally the best judge of whether a category or list is likely to be viable or be deleted, and what changes if any need to be made. As Category:Antisemites has already been deleted, you may get opposition in recreating it. (Incidentally, while I currently live in London, I'm not a "fine British chap" but an expat New York Jew.) — iridescent(talk to me!)16:01, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Well than, if you tell me your age, I'll tell you if you qualify for membership in an organization I'm thinking of forming. It will be called the Elders of Zion - antisemites maybe gave us a good idea which we may have overlooked. Do you think we could create such an entity? It's aim, of course, would be world domination.
Category:Notable or notorious antisemites
Jump to: navigation, search
Listed here are individuals who played some notable role, or a notorious one, in history, literature, or publication.Please note that mere incident(s) involving some apparent antisemitic conduct or speach is insufficient to qualifythe inclusion of a person on this list. Please be very careful in your selections. Remember also that this is nota place to make your own personal judgments. Neither should it be a place or space to libel or slander a living personwith whose views you strongly disagree. Nor is it a place to list someone who exercised poor judgment in the choiceof words on a particular occasion.
Pages in category "Notable or notorious antisemites"
There are 10 pages in this section of this category.
A
Arthur Cherep-Spiridovich
B
Boris Brasol
F
Henry Ford
G
G. Butmi
H
Reinhard HeydrichHeinrich HimmlerAdolf Hitler
L
L. Fry
P
Pavel Krushevan
W
Nesta Helen Webster
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Category:Notable_or_notorious_antisemites"
Category: Antisemitism
As a matter of fact there was a confusion as to a Category, or an Artcle. I wanted the former, and it exists now. The Former generates a List automatically. So all's well now. --Ludvikus17:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I know that category creates a list but the problem is it will not take long before someone nominates this category for deletion, I'm afraid. Similar category was already deleted once. And having word "notorious" in the title will not help. This is why I suggest changing the name to Ideologists of antisemitism for instance. M0RD00R17:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
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Check again. I only touched up the UN (WW II) image (it was damaged). I think it's pre-1923. But somebody else found it before me. So do your research further please. --Ludvikus11:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but we also have manslaughter, which is not as bad. We need to distinuish between a "hymie" remark, and the work of Adolf Hitler. Without the distinction(s) the vother Wikipedians will have it deleted!! --Ludvikus15:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
If you want to reply to me, please copy your msg to my page, I almost never check other user pages for messages for me. I am not sure I understand your point. There are notable antisemites that belong to Misplaced Pages and sad unnotable individuals who don't. We don't call the notable notable in categories since we would have to insert it everywhere.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 19:45, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Removal of nominations for deletion is considered vandalism. Please don't do that again. And nominations for deletion are never signed on the article page. If you had gone to the CfD page, you would have seen my signature, and that my nomination was not capricious. Corvus cornix17:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Listen, Asshole, it was a mistake on my part for which I've apologized to you on your Talk page. Where have you been - on the Moon? Instead of wasting time on this shit, why don't you pay attention to the discussion there, at the Deletion proposal cite? Furthermore, my mistake was corrected a while ago - probably when you were asleep. --Ludvikus17:39, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Since both pages have a history, other than being a redirect of each other, the move can only be done by an administrator. The naming of the template is not a huge issue, though, as it's not usually user visible, and thus I think, for the sake of simplicity, having the name without quotes, is probably the better way to go. Regards, -- Jeff300014:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
If you had not edited the original page after you had moved it to the page with one quote, I would have been able to move it back, but at this point you need to ask for administrator help, possibly at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. The Template, while related to the book, is about a whole bunch of ideas (since it is included in many pages) and thus does not need the quotes for simplicity. A very small minority of people will see the title of the template, so just keep it simple and ask to have it moved to the page with no quotes. Regards, -- Jeff300015:48, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Please consider Misplaced Pages's rules on canvassing. Deletion discussions are not polls, so votestacking is a disservice to your cause, especially if it is determined you are canvassing to influence the results. / edg☺★00:53, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
OK. I've read the rule. You're mistaken in it's application to me. I've contact that One editor who has actually Used this Category. Accordingly, unless he knows that it's up for Deletion, his use of it is meaningless. So you are mistaken. --Ludvikus01:10, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I've checked the Rule. It seems that you're mistaken in its application to me. It is not an Absolute rule. In fact, it's very clear that there are circumstances in which canvassing is proper, and good for Misplaced Pages. Please reconsider you're observation. --Ludvikus01:12, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note carefully the exceptions to the general rule - and examine more precisely what you believe I did wrong. Thereafter I expect you to get back to me with an appropriate Wikipedian response. Thank you, --Ludvikus01:15, 7 October 2007 (UTC)a
I'm familiar with these rules, and telling an editor how to vote in a deletion discussion is fairly blatant canvassing. The category does not seem to be created by Wedineinheck. What exception do you claim? / edg☺★01:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Nonesense. He's using the Category. You are being Pedantic. We are not in front of a USA voting booth. The guy is a User of the Category. He clearly believes in it. So you are playing with formalities. I'm not Telling him how to Vote. I'm telling him that he will not be able to Classify his characters under that Antisemitic Category unless he Votes Not to Delete. Cann't you see the point. The guy is already Converted User of the System. So are you going to Split Hairs with me? You are simply Wrong, and I hope you can admit it.
And if you insist on splitting hairs - look carefully at the word "multiple". Contacting One Editor is not Multiple. Or what do you think? One editor is the same as Multiple editors? --Ludvikus01:37, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Soliciting a vote from someone known in advance to favor a certain outcome is blatantly votestacking. I'm not really interested in arguing this. I just wanted you to be aware that you may be crossing a line. / edg☺★01:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion. And after carefully studying your view, I've come to the conclusion that I've done the right thing. And for the record, here's the first part of the Wiki rule your concerned with (showing the footnotes):
''']''' is sending messages to multiple Wikipedians with the intent to influence
a community discussion.
<ref>Any kind of solicitation may meet this definition, including, for example, a custom signature to
automatically append some promotional message to every signed post.</ref>
Under certain conditions it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, but messages that are written
to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion compromise the consensus building process and
are generally considered disruptive.
This guideline explains how to notify editors without engaging in disruptive canvassing.
<ref>On at least one occasion, a provocative attempt to stack an ongoing poll by cross-posting has contributed towards
an Arbitration Committee ruling of disruptive behavior that resulted in probation and eventual banning by the community.
An arbitrator clarified the position: "Briefly, I think a reasonable amount of communication about issues is fine.
Aggressive propaganda campaigns are not. The difference lies in the disruption involved.
If what is happening is getting everyone upset then it is a problem. Often the dividing line is crossed when you are
contacting a number of people who do not ordinarily edit the disputed article."
See ].</ref>
A hard and fast rule does not exist with regard to selectively notifying on their talk pages certain editors who have or are thought to have a predetermined point of view, in order to influence a vote. However, the greater the number of editors contacted, the more often this behavior is engaged in, and the greater the resulting disruption, the more likely it is that this behavior will result in warnings and/or sanctions. Some Wikipedians have suggested that informing editors on all "sides" of a debate (e.g., everyone who voted in a previous AfD on a given subject) may be acceptable.
Therefore, Ludvikus did not break the rule in its literal sense, but, as a general rule of "Wikiquette" telling a user to vote a certain was in a discussion is frowned upon. To explain further, the message was only placed on one user's talk page, so it is not canvassing (at least described word-for-word in the canvassing policy), but it is something that is generally looked upon with differing degrees of dislike. Had Ludvikus placed the message on multiple users' talk pages, then it would be a clear violation. As it stands, however, while Ludvikus did not violate the policy, I suggest that they refrain from posting messages like that on talk pages. Hope that's clear enough, and happy editing, ( arky )02:05, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I appreciate the Rationality that Misplaced Pages is producing. First of all, I had no idea of the existence of this rule. And I'm glad to have learned of it this early. The principle I operate under is Fairness - which is at the basis of all systems reflecting any degree of Justice.
Now back to my point. I think it is consistent with the Canvassing rule at Misplaced Pages for me to contact any editor who is now actively using the Category:Notable or notorious antisemites. And that telling such an editor to Vote to Keep is certainly not Disruptive. It is absurd to think that by so saying I'm influencing that editor. Such an editor obviously believes in the legitimacy of the Category - otherwise why is (s)he using it? --Ludvikus02:14, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, now that I think of it, it is perfectly OK for me to go to the Talk page and Solicit Votes - to Vote to Keep the Category - or does anyone advise me not to do so? If not, why not? --Ludvikus02:20, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
While it is not disallowed by the policy to do this to one editor, it certainly is not allowed for you to do this to multiple editors. As for soliciting votes, something like "X was nominated for deletion. Your comments in the discussion would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, ~~~~" is perfectly acceptable to post on multiple pages, but asking for a specific vote is not. Cheers, ( arky )02:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Finally it sounds like I've reached a Wikipedian Judge (in Real Life)! The people I wish to Canvass (probably precisely because I've been reprimanded) are the Users of the Category: Category:Notable or notorious antisemites. What I'm saying is that to tell them to Vote not to delete is simply preacing to the converted. Every editor I would Canvass would be an editor who's actively using the Category. He's/She's clearly a believer in its desirability. Therefore initiating such contacts would Not constitute Disruptive behavior. And so I should be permitted to engage in such Canvassing. Do you understand my point? I would not be contacting any neutral, or opposed, editors! So there's no disruption whatsoever. I would simply be informing editors who use the Category at present that they would not be able to use it unless they Vote to Keep. The point is obvious to me. But have I made it clear to others? --Ludvikus02:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that Fate has conspired to prevent me from being able to contact any more Wikipedians than one: User:Wedineinheck! There is no other User (besides myself) whose actively classifying bio articles under this Category. So I cannot violate the rule - requiring Multiple user contacts - even if I wanted to. --Ludvikus02:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I completely understand your point. I think it is absolutely wonderful that you are informing users that a category they use may be deleted, and I can see eye to eye with you perfectly on the fact that they should be told that one of the categories they use might be no more. However, the canvassing policy states that you cannot post messages on talk pages that say specifically to vote one way or another. It doesn't say, though, that you can't inform them of the discussion. If you are saying this to users who use the category without telling them they should vote one way or another, they will probably vote to keep the category anyway, as they use it. Thus, you can effectively not violate the canvassing policy, and still get editors who use the category to participate in the discussion. Hope that makes sense :) ( arky )02:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. And it's good not to be talking to the wall for a change. On the other hand, is one of us (just) a brilliant computer simulating human behavior? Best to you, and Peace! --Ludvikus02:58, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
*:::It may be considered disruptive to the deletion discussion and you may be blocked to permit that discussion to continue without disruption. -- Jreferee t/c03:23, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
In response to this post, soliciting !votes to Keep the Category on editor talk pages may be considered disruptive to the deletion discussion. Anyone who disrupts a deletion discussion may be blocked to permit that discussion to continue without disruption. -- Jreferee t/c04:27, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I believed you knew Polish. So I hoped you also knew Russian, because Poland was under Soviet control in the last half of the previous century. --Ludvikus16:44, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi! Would you be interested in DYK debate on Ghetto benches. Apparently there are some users doubting racial nature of this discriminatory act. What's your opinion? Cheers. M0RD00R17:47, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Please hold your horses. The article on such delicate subject has to remain narrowly focused. Nothing prevents you from creating wider topic review articles but this article is devoted to a specific aspect of Polish antisemitism. Don't throw everything that comes to mind to Wikiepdia articles at random. --Irpen19:22, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
There are no moves taking place now (you're talking about ancient history by Wiki time).
Misplaced Pages encourages Boldness - especially in the face of obvious error.
Whatever Moves I did, they were accepted, and things are stable now.
So stop waisting time being an un-necessary Wiki Policeman; your time would be better spent concentrating on sloppy work at best concerning the subject of Polish antisemitism.
Boldness is good when editing but by far less in moving. And even when editing Be bold but don't be reckless. Also, please be polite and concentrate on building a good encyclopedia overall, not trying to find every chance to insert issues closest to your heart left and right. Antisemitism is a horrible phenomenon, it needs to be covered but it needs to be covered properly. If you overpush, you undermine the credibility of this coverage in the eyes of the readers. --Irpen19:46, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. You appear sincere. But the problem with Jews was that they were Not pushy enough. Do not confuse my pasionate discussed at the antisemitic undertones of some of the articles I edit or attempt to cleanup, with the Cold Logic of which I believe I'm capable of. It was another editor who informed me of the horrible state of this article. And I find that it has already improved (in my eyes of course) since I was made aware of its existence. Right now I'm mostly concerned with the following: Category:Notable or notorious antisemites. It appears Wikipedians are more concerned that poor, unfortunate, victims will be inproperly, subjectively, or wrongly, classified as antisemites. --Ludvikus20:06, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Although I disagree with current title, personally I am a fan of WP:UE I'm sure we'll have plenty of time to discuss it later. I don't mind even RfM. But there are some more serious issues to discuss now in and around this article such as a denial of racial nature of this act, attempts to portray it as a clash between Polish and Jewish extremist organizations (sic!), there all parts are equally to blame and so on. Of cause it is not easy not to loose temper in the face of such a blatant distortions of historical facts, but simply there is no other way than to stay calm and concentrated on important things. Let's have a quality time discussing what really matters. Cheers. M0RD00R20:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Ghetto benches again
Quite to the contrary. Term Ghetto benches is used in English. Just click on this link . How about continuing this discussion on the article talk page. Cheers. M0RD00R20:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll get to that later. I understand that the possessive of "Ghetto" is "Ghetta." So shouldn't we have "Ghetta lawka"? --Ludvikus20:55, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
User:Piotus gave us the clue, I think. The 18 google hits show the use of scare quotes, like so: "bench ghetto" (or was it ghetto bench?).
Personally I would go with "bench ghetto", but the fact is that in academic sources mostly term "ghetto benches" is used. The usage of "ghetto benches" outnumbers "bench ghetto" by 10:1 ratio according to google books. M0RD00R21:45, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
You're right, MORDOOR! I got 247 Google hits. You do the rest of the work. I'm going out (it's Sunday). --Ludvikus21:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Robert H. McNeal, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages per CSD A1.
Under the criteria for speedy deletion, articles that do not meet basic Misplaced Pages criteria may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as an appropriate article, and if you can indicate why the subject of this article is appropriate, you may contest the tagging. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the article and leave a note on the article's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would confirm its subject's notability under the guidelines.
If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion. To do this, add {{hangon}} on the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag) and leave a note on the page's talk page explaining your position. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself. Shawnpoo20:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Re: Alleged disruption message posted on my Talk page
You seem to think that a message was left here that wasmeant for me. And you seem to have posted it on my page. I have no idea what your talking about - and I wish you had not done that. You should contact the person who sent it and tell them that they have made a mistake. --Ludvikus02:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It was clearly meant for you — examine the diff. Since Jreferee is answering a question for which you solicited an answer, I thought it would be polite to pass it along. Sorry if this causes problems — in the future I won't bother. / edg☺★02:44, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
It was reckless of you to simply post an apparent editors threat to Block a user without the appropriate precaution that it be noticed by the parties involved. You should not have done that Cut & Paste. Since I'm not an inexperienced User, I was easily able to find out what has been done. But such reckless action could cause problems for another. Why didn't you simply tell the two parties what had happened? What you did is improperly fix an administrators un-sent apparent notice. Do you understand what I'm trying to explain to you? --Ludvikus03:02, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Apologies are not necessary, if your intent was to do good, which I now think it was. However, do you understand my point about the problems that could result? --Ludvikus03:24, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for uploading Image:Bookintnatjewhankford01.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).
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Not Public Domain. It will be in public domain in 2017. Please read the rules carefully about tags you are placing. the appropriate tag is {{book cover}}. PLease go to Image:Bookintnatjewhankford01.jpg and add fair use rationale as requested by the rules. Please notice carefully the restrictions where this image may be used in wikipedia. `'Míkka04:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Nonsense! It's a 1921 imprint of a Title page. You do not seem to know the difference between that and a Book cover. And How your Arithmetic produced 2017 as the Copyright expiration date is a real mystery! It surely is not by Polish logic, which had attained a very high level of development by the time of the Second World War. --Ludvikus06:02, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
This is your last warning: stop your insults or you will be blocked from editing. You are creating an unbearable atmosphere. Now back to the issue: public domain in the United States is counted 70 years after the death of the author. Henry Ford died in 1947. 1947+70=2017. Yes, I missed the point that it is not the book cover (BTW, you yorself wrote it is "book cover"). Please ask experts in Misplaced Pages talk:Non-free content. `'Míkka06:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
'Mikka. You're apparently unaware that for Works published before1923 the year of death of the author is irrelevant to the Copyright expiration date; all works, according to United States law, which had been published before 1923, are in the Public Domain. --Ludvikus06:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with Mikka here. Copyright for the books is held by the publisher not the author like for, say, painting and the clock starts ticking from the date of publication, not from the date of author's death. That said, Ludvikus, unless you change your demeanor, you will get blocked. --Irpen06:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Irpen. It is not helpful to threaten me with being blocked by demanding that I change my demeaner. If there is something you do not like which I wrote, you should tell me exactly what it is - otherwise I have no idea what you find offensive; I find the writing on Jewish Bolshevism extremely offensive, and I would like you guys to change your demeanor in regard to that. Do you know what I want you to do by that? I imagine your answer is "No." --Ludvikus06:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I "do not like" your combative style of editing and aggressive talk page posts. This should stop. --Irpen06:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
There is no rule in Misplaced Pages - that I know of - prohibiting "combative style of editing" or "aggressive talk page posts." Also, these terms of yours are POV interpretations. Again, I ask you to be more precise about exactly what it is that you do not like which I wrote - and next show me how I violated any Misplaced Pages rule? I do not think you could do that - simply because nothing of the kind exists. --Ludvikus06:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
You've recently classified various imprints of the above as "religious book stubs"; that's a mistake; this stuff consists of various imprints, under different titles, which is/are in fact instances of plagiarism, forgery, and a hoax.
The fact that they are hoaxes does not change the fact that they were written as a political and religious attack against the Jews, thus making either of these classifications correct. Since we do not have a "hoax book stub", "plagiarism book stub" or "forgery book stub", I sorted it according to what we do have.
I did not turn the articles into anything. They are still in the controversial literature category, which is a parent category for Category:Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which contains the articles (as well as the myriad other redundant categories the articles occupied). Fortunately, I don't care what happens to the categorization of the articles, as long as users can find them efficiently, which is what categorizing is for. I think that if it is important to you, you should revert the edits, rather than lecturing me.
As a scholar myself, I am in my right mind, and I resent the implication that no one but you really knows what the Protocols are about, or how to edit Misplaced Pages articles. If you cannot abide any changes to articles you have edited, then you are in the wrong place and should start your own website. Regards, Her Pegship (tis herself)04:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I was not writing about you, and it's unfortunate that you take the observation personally. The subject of discourse is/are the so-called Protocols of Zion. If you deduce that you are not in your right mind because it is you who thinks these Protocols are religious texts - than that is your own problem, not mine. --Ludvikus04:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, you said: "No one in their right mind (except victims of antisemitism) take any imprint of "The Protocols", under whatever title, as either a political, or a religious, book." I did categorize it as both. Thus, you are the one implying I am not in my right mind, and I am the one refuting it. I reserve the right to respond to insults to my intelligence, implied or explicit. Her Pegship (tis herself)04:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
First of all, it is not a matter of intelligence. It is a matter of hatred, bigotry, vileness, wickedness, antisemtism, racism, and Evil. Anyone who believes that the so-called Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a political, or a religious, text falls under all of these categories. Now you tell me, what do you think? --Ludvikus04:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that you are implying that I am hateful, bigoted, vile, wicked, antisemitic, racist, and evil (see logic in my previous comment), and I will no longer respond to any post you make. Her Pegship (tis herself)04:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not interested in your own, personal, private views. You should look up the difference between general statement and particular statement. As I told you before, the subject of discourse is "The Protocols". As a Wikipedian we are both expected to assume good faith on each others part. But if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen; whatever your private beliefs are is your affair - that does not, however, entitle you to censor me in describing the nature of the readership or audience of the Protocols of Zion. Cheers, --Ludvikus04:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Please state the articles and the modifications to which you refer. I am unable to find the changes that you are talking about. 07:49, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, there was vandalism before your contribution (), which you did not revert. I did notice your contributions (, ) when I was reverting the vandalism to the article and I did paste in the sentence you added (). I believe the anon who edited the article after you has fixed everything ().
I take it your objection can be summed up as: you are objecting to having any of the poster, on the grounds that it is not only offensive, but also inaccurate, misleading, and it doesn't actually say anything about the role of the Chinese soldiers or assert their notability. Is this your reasoning? Ostap06:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I do find your argument convincing. The only thing I could say to try and compromise would be to have the image properly labeled as what it is and your other concerns addressed in the article, though I am not sure how one could actually go about completing these tasks. Perhaps it is better to just not have the poster. You do have good points. Cheers, Ostap06:38, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Great. But why are you preaching to the converted? You've paraphrased my points so well, why don't you make your agreement known to our Polish cousins on the Talk page of the Article? --Ludvikus06:42, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I have not visited Yet. What city or town are you from?
I get it now! Your the editor who proposed the "the" for Ukraine. English grammar has no actual reason for the "the". It may sound more natural, but it actually really shouldn't. Consider it as unecessary as that image. And I come from Lviv. Ostap06:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
No, no, no! I know that after the fall of Communism, (the) Ukraine determined that its official name is not The Ukraine, but Ukraine. However, I was only asking what the proper English is in the middle of a sentence:
I see. I don't see any grammatical reason to have a "the" even in that context. But, I suppose its really no big deal in text like that. Its most important when talking about the official name and what not. Some use it deliberately to be offensive, some have used it innocently all their lives and still do. I even talk to other Ukrainian immigrants who learned the "the" and still use it. Ostap07:12, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
It's like: "I'm from the United States. Or I'm from the Netherlands, or the Vatican.
Where you born in Ukaraine? And if so, how old were you when you left? It's very important regarding the use of "the" in the English language. I have a friend, Turkey, Physicist now, but he came over to the US at 15. He still does not know when to use "the", and whent not to! --Ludvikus07:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
The Netherlands and The US are plural terms, hence the article. Some countries with adjective modifiers, such as the United Kingdom, or the Ukrainian SSR would require the "the" also. The Vatican I can not explain, I will give you that one. The best evidence on my behalf would be there is no "the Germany", "the France", the Brazil, the Turkey, ect. When talking about non-native speakers using articles correctly, then of course there is the issue of people whose native languages don't even have articles or the concept of them. You said you know its officially just Ukraine, so I don't think it really matters what you use when speaking. Best regards, Ostap07:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Your mistaken on the plural rule. Here's another counterexample for you: I arrived in the United States and settled in the Bronx. The Rule is Pure Custom - nothing else. --Ludvikus07:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I would counter by saying that the pronounciation of the word itself sounds enough like a plural word to warrent the article. Ostap07:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Nice try. But we know something else. The name derives from Jonas Bronck, and it was his real estate that was known, by the Dutch, as Bronck's land. And there's no plural there, only the possessive. --Ludvikus07:47, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we just stop Wikipedianizing, get ourselves a couple of beautiful Ukrainian blond girls and take them to the Riviera? Is it because we have two girls that it's the Riviera? --Ludvikus07:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Ah, but which Riviera? Just simply the riviera would be a geographic region, such as the west or the north or the pacific, not a country.
I'd hate to be a Wikipedianizer. I must now sign off and bid you good night, or morning, or whatever depending on your geographic position. Ostap07:59, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Or two black girls from The Gambia. But seriously, I have no idea about the article's usage. I try to get native speakers to copyedit everything I write, including on-wiki. Articles and prepositions are especially troublesome. Native speakers sometimes correct what I wrote though adding the to Ukraine. Personally, I have no idea which one is better. IMO, saying that the is somehow offensive is nonsense. I don't use it simply because currently the article-less form seems to prevail in modern English which makes it "correct". For the very same reason I use Kiev as the prevailing usage is the definition of the correct from in English, the language that does not have a regulating body, unlike Russian and Ukrainian where special branches of the Science Academies define what is correct. --Irpen08:00, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
That's a (friendly?) surprise Also, France, is the important (Culture, and all that) model of officially pronouncing "correct" linguistic usae! Since "the" is the most common word in English, it's probably the greatest source of errors for non-naitive English language speakers. I think we need a special Artilcle on this artcle. --Ludvikus12:37, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
All this discussion of proper article usage, and the very page we were talking about was wrong and I never noticed. Good catch. Ostap03:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Did you follow the link? The page was titled Chinese in Russian Revolution, which is grammatically incorrect. You were the one who moved and added the "the" right? Ostap03:19, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
You're funny, Ostrap! Here I am, trying to get the Article deleted, as well as the Poster, and you observe that I corrected the English usage in it, of the article "the." There's the Irony !!! --Ludvikus
Now that's even more funny. You see the Trees, and even the Leaves, Ostrap, but you don't see the Forest!!! Aren't you aware that User:Mikkai has Reverted my Deletion of the Poster for the 4rth time? You remind me of the joke about the woman (I'm making this up) who was told she had terminal Cancer, and she complained about the little Scratch on her nose. --Ludvikus03:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Is this a complex way of saying you want me to remove the poster from the article? I was not even aware that it was re-added. Ostap03:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
You're saying that you are trying to get the article deleted, where is the place to vote? I, Ostap would like to place a vote. Ostap03:39, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
First, my apologies for not attending to The Morning Post: I have been travelling. In any case, the issue seems to have settled. The same approach might be advisable in the present case - wait and see, or take it to talk. Banno08:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Greetings
Thank you for the invitation, as soon as I have more time Iwill be glad to help out. Greetings and respect. Tymek17:54, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry I employed the word "true" in my mistaken edit of the article in question. "Truth" is not the issue in plagiarism and I regret it if I seemed to imply as much.
As a matter of fact, the history of anti-Semitism is not an obsession with me (as it clearly is with so many people) and I had not heard of either the 1903 Znamya edition of the Protocols or of Maurice Joly's 19th Century French political satire. My sole reading in the field of what I suppose we should begin calling "Protocols of the Elders of Zion Studies" was the article I had edited, which makes no mention of these. I got the impression from reading it that this Russian fakir was the original source of the slander.
I would agree with you that I am at fault for not having done wider reading in this area and having much-too-naively blundered in, like a barefoot child into a minefield. Writtenright07:11, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Writtenright
Thank you for your very kind and understanding words of forgiveness. I am truly sorry for my bad edit, and I thank you for changing it back to plagiarism. I am honoured by your request to help with the Chinese in the Russian Revolution article, and am eager to get to it as soon as possible. You will have to check it carefully, as my knowledge of Russian history leaves a great deal to be desired! Thanking you again, Writtenright18:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)Writtenright
Why I left out the Japanese
I believe I left out the Japanese because the Japanese, at that time, were not traditionally allies of the Russians, and would be unlikely to be working for the Russian Red Army. There was a war called the Russo-Japanese War which had taken place just a few years earlier--didn't you know that? Also, I don't believe the Japanese, who had modernized themselves in the 19th century, retained such long mustaches such as are typically used in caricatures of Chinese (or, at least, were used as such in the silent films of the first decades of the 20th century). Badagnani07:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Another editor, named Temur, said, "On the picture there are some men who look like Chinese but they can be anything from Buryats, Mongols, Kalmyks, Tuvanians, Altai-men, Kyrgizs, Kazakhs, Chukchas, or Crimean Tatars." However, if it is true that the White Russians had as a primary part of their propaganda the (racist) claim that Russia would be taken over by Chinese, Jews, etc., then they probably are Chinese. The skullcaps and long mustaches seem more typically Chinese to me than indicative of those other Central Asian ethnic groups. In my opinion, the poster is historically important, and interesting in this context. Badagnani07:30, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words - and you did it, Ostrap. Now let's see why the other editors prefer the anti-Chinese (and non-Christian people) Racist poster instead. --Ludvikus19:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
But Ostrap, again, why are you preaching to the converted? Get to the Article and write what you believe - and subit this Map of Asia. --Ludvikus20:05, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Sorry Ludvikus, "I am throwing in my hat". For now, I would recommend you adress your concerns with the content of the article by adding clarification to the article itself. Good luck. Ostap02:11, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I mentioned the Ukrainian article because, before I edited it, it was actually written from a pro-Polish and anti-Ukrainian perspective. I guess there are some other pretty important things going on. I should tell you though, Irpen is not Polish. I think the article still needs to be expanded and clarified and so on. Good luck with that and the other articles you edit. I see you edit the Protocols. I have never studied this, but I have heard what they say. I have read that they are being taught as fact in some middle eastern schools. Is this true? Ostap02:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I read once that they were the most influential and dangerous peices of hate literature ever created. I wanted to find out more about them so I did a little research (not an exhaustive study) and concluded the same as you. How anyone in history could ever believe such anti-Semitic, hateful nonsense amazed me. That this is still being taught as truth today is frightening. Ostap03:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Your opinion on whether this article meets the inclusion criteria is welcome. Please contribute to the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/The Protocols of Zion (imprints). Don't forget to add four tildes (~~~~) at the end of each of your comments to sign them.
Discussions such as these usually last five days. In the meantime, you are free to edit the content of the article. Please do not remove the "articles for deletion" template (the box at the top). When the discussion has concluded, a neutral third party will consider all comments and decide whether or not to delete the article. IZAK09:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
This is actually funny, because it was not "me" who was "advising" you, it was the "advisory" template {{subst:AFDWarningNew|Article title<nowiki>}} that I placed here that "advises" automatically by creating this script here, that includes advice about what to do with another template. So it was a template advising about another template, as it were. Thanks, ~~~~
Hello. If you have new articles to add for deletion, do so in their own submission. Changing an existing AfD, especially with edits that may be construed as WP:POINT issues, is not a good idea. Please stop. Thank you. -- Avi15:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
And please see WP:TPG. Do not refactor a discussion; you may add your own comments if you wish, but do not edit or re-order the contributions which other editors have made to the discussion. --BrownHairedGirl(talk) • (contribs) 15:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
If you have comments to add, do so in such a way that it does not appear that you are refactoring a submission to AfD. Namely, in line with everyone else. -- ~~~~
Thanks for uploading Image:Bookintnatjewhankford01.jpg.
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