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Two questions

Two questions:

1. What is Seinai District
2. What is the number of Lithuanians there and what is the source for such a claim?

--Halibutt 13:23, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

http://www.lietuva.lt/index.php?Lang=5&ItemId=29641 - one of sources. http://home.online.no/~sveilund/polen/litauen.htm - another one. It should be Sejny district, mentioned in the first source. DeirYassin 13:36, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Does somebody disputes that there is 30% of Lithuanians? It is true that there are Lithuanians in northeast Poland, otherwise Lithuanian schools, newspaper and cultural facilities would not be functioning. So therefore I guess "according to some sources" is unneeded. Could you get somewhere online or such maybe results of latest census of the powiat? Also there is Lithuanian consulate in Seinai (which if not minority would not be there as it is a small town), "Lietuvių Namai" (Lithuanian house) organisation, "Seina" foundaton of Lithuanians, in the gymnasium (school) of Seinai there are Lithuanian classes which also has Lithuanian newspaper, etc. Not sure what there is to dispute. DeirYassin 15:41, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, of course I don't dispute that there are Lithuanians there. Especially that Sejny is the centre of Lithuaian cultural life in Poland (school, cultural associations, even a monthly magazine). However, the 30% quota seems of low credibility, especially that it is supported mostly by sources written before the first census in 80 years in which there was a question about nationality. And in the census of 2001 there were roughly 5,800 Lithuanians in all Poland, all parts of it included (in addition to roughly 75.000 "born in Lithuania", that is people born in what is now Lithuania, since the GUS office used the current borders for easier decision of where one was born; large majority of them is between 50 and 80 years old now).

I'm currently looking for some more detailed results of the latest census either for the town of Sejny itself or for the Powiat of Sejny. Also, there was a "Polacy-Litwini" survey taken by the same office in, AFAIR, 1999, which could also be of some use here. Halibutt 20:36, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

By the way, the biggest Lithuanian organisation in Poland, the Stowarzyszenie Litwinów w Polsce has circa 2500 members. Halibutt 21:06, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

footnote

I was asked for a suggestion on how to handle the long quotation in the footnote--which is a little obtrusive and siproportionate. My advice is to abbreviate it to the essential part, giving it both in the original and in (perhaps somewhat more idiomatic) English. The details of how many people are in each school, etc. are not critical. for example: " Repressions affected various persons – teachers, public persons, pupils.... bishop A. Karosas was put under house arrest, later he was forced to go into exile to independent Lithuania. ...most Lithuanian professors and academics were imprisoned...or exiled. Poles devastated Lithuanian institutions, closed organizations and schools, ... It was also prohibited to speak Lithuanian in public places also. ... Lithuanian books in the schools were burnt. " It would be acceptable to put a fuller quote on the talk page, but I don't see why it would be necessary.DGG (talk) 18:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

First, who invited you regarding long quotation? Second WP:V#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English strictly says that relevant quote should be presented in original and translation, there is no words about modified translations, which you suggesting to implement . M.K. 18:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

As I have suggested in my edit summaries, a proper way for such a quote is not in the mainbody. It should be brought at talk for discussion but we don't commonly quite other text (which are not under free licences). There is also an entire project dedicated to quotes (Wikiquote). Further, the article links to Sejny Uprising, where the quote can be (after being rewriten) incorporated more fully into the article. I strongly suggest moving the quote to Talk:Sejny Uprising and eliminating it from this article (also, WP:UNDUE comes to mind).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Piotrus asked me, as you would find from my talk page. I suggested, as usual, a compromise. Translations should be into grammatical English. Full quotations of documents do not belong in WP, and omissions are properly shown by the ellipses: ... I add the following additional suggestion,

There are other possibilities: the abridged translation could go in the text, and the full original in a footnote. I do not see the point in using it in both--for the more general article I'd just use a sentence, such as "The victorious Poles suppressed Lithuanian cultural institutions" and just the reference.

and: It might be a good idea to use the template for WP:SS, {{main|Sejny uprising}}

The point is to find a way to present and document the material and still have a good article. this is a general encyclopedia, and does not get documented in the detail that a research monograph would. In using such quotes, it is more effective to keep them concise. It highlights the material. I'm trying to suggest how to use it effectively--I am not suggesting hiding it or eliminating it. anyway, its my suggestion, and you will do here as the consensus on the page thinks best-- as long as you discuss it, and avoid reverting each other. DGG (talk) 19:13, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification regarding Piotrus request. Indeed this contributor likes to travel to your page . However as you may see this quote was removed once more, while WP:V says it should be. As I understand you suggesting to leave only English variant (translation) of quote in footnote? M.K. 19:22, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Help is still needed here! M.K. 16:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hi. :) I am reviewing the article's history and the conversation above and will replace this note with something more potentially useful when I have finished. --Moonriddengirl 17:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello Moonriddengirl, thank you for your involvement. M.K. 17:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The internet swallowed my first response. :) I will reconstruct it. You are quite right that WP:V#Sources_in_languages_other_than_English specifies that "Where editors use their own English translation of a non-English source as a quote in an article, there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation". I wonder, though, if you're interpreting that too strictly. Is there reason to believe that "citation" there means anything different than it does at Wp:citation#Full_citations, where "Full citations for books typically include: the name of the author, the title of the book or article, the date of publication, and page numbers. The name of the publisher, city of publication, and ISBN are optional. For journal articles, include volume number, issue number and page numbers. Citations for newspaper articles typically include the title of the article in quotes, the byline (author's name), the name of the newspaper in italics, date of publication, page number(s), and the date you retrieved it if it is online." Unless there is an expansion on that guideline somewhere stating that you need to transcribe the original and provide your translation in article, I would presume that all it's really asking for is that you scrupulously document your source. Please let me know if you think I've missed something or if I am misinterpreting the nature of your conversation above. --Moonriddengirl 18:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks for response. I feel I need to clarify some points. I quoted non English researcher's facts in article, so as I understand per policy using non-English source as a quote I should present clear citation of the foreign-language original, as I understand it, the same quote which I translated in EN and placed in WP, only in original format, because other people which have some doubts not only could find the book itself but also and the particular quote. M.K. 18:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate that you're attempting to scrupulously abide by policy, and I understand that you want to be sure that the original is available for verification. :) It's possible that I am misinterpreting the policy myself, but I read "clear citation of the foreign-language original" as simply asking for a full citation, as at Wp:citation#Full_citations. If it said "clear quotation of the foreign-language original" then you would certainly need to annotate it. It's not so very different in my opinion that using as a source a print book in the English language. You give as much information as you possibly can to allow other editors to find and verify your information, but you do not need to type out the relevant sections of the text. --Moonriddengirl 18:50, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

You may be right regarding this conjunction, however there is possibility that we are misinterpreting the policy itself. Maybe the main policy, WP:RSUE, should be made more clearer in order to avoid further confusions? What do you thing is it worth to do so? M.K. 14:14, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I have asked the editors who monitor WP:V at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#Question_regarding_foreign-language_sources. If anybody would know what's intended, they would. :) Perhaps the language of the policy should be clarified. If they don't come over on their own, I'll report back on any follow-up. --Moonriddengirl 17:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Sometimes translations and quotations are useful for clarification, but I do agree their place is on talk - not in the article. This holds particularly true for controversial statements, some of which may fail WP:NPOV/UNDUE/WEASEL and similar policies. What our policies certainly don't support is trying to circumvent those policies by including statements which would not be acceptable in article as "quotes" or "translations".-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

If there's another dimension to this debate beyond the use of foreign language sources and the meaning of the policy above, I've probably missed it. :) If I've failed to address something fully, please feel free to explain. --Moonriddengirl 17:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I believe the quote introduces details which are 1) controversial, possibly fringe (not supported by any other source, despite us having insignificantly expanded Sejny uprising 2) of undue weight to this article, which should simply not go into such tiny details of the uprising 3) non-neutral as it is pushing certain POV "bad Poles". It's opposite would be, for example, an addition of a fact Lithuanians shot Polish wounded fighters during the fighting in the town - which I am not planning to add here, either as a quote or to main body, because it would be fringe, undue and POVed. Hence I believe that addition of the quote about Polish atrocities to this article violates WP:FRINGE, WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV - it states facts that would never make it into the main article because of those policies.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems like if the original language expanded quote and translation are not included, this will not be an issue. Is that correct? --Moonriddengirl 19:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

More or less. I certainly have no problem with including the information (which can be confirmed by several sources from both sides) that there were repressions against the Lithuanian population in Sejny in the aftermath of the uprising. Going into excessive details of a historical event, not supported by majority of sources, is another issue.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I do not agree with you on excessive citation. The facts, you have recently removed, speak for themselves and explain why Lithuanians found this region important, and what Polish government actions changed the ethnic situation. Ban on Lithuanian language is quite harsh Polonization policy, don't you think? Lesčius supports it with a reference.--Lokyz 10:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

That doesn't mean it is relevant to this article. Or do you think we should add information about Lithuanian shooting down wounded Polish fighters here, too? PS. Or a better example: should we add detailed information / quotations on Ponary massacre to Panerai, quotations on how Vilnians (Polish, Jewish) suffered from various armies after WWI; a lenghty quotation from Kaunas pogrom to Kaunas...? -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Response from Village Pump

Two respondents at the Village Pump are of the opinion that while an extensive quote of a foreign language text (and translation) in the footnote is not necessary per guidelines, it's also not harmful and in some circumstances may be a very good thing to do. It seems that the editor who restored it on this article is among those who feel that in this case it's a very good thing to do. I wonder if  Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus  has a point, though, about the necessity of quoting it all here, since it's already quoted I see at Sejny Uprising. Could the full translation be replaced with text reading something like "For a transcription of the relevant text and translation, please see footnote at ]", to address the concerns raised above about WP:WEIGHT? The text in the article seems fine to me; the citation is obviously a must to support it. But I don't know if the translation needs to be given in both articles. :) It seems like using it one article with a wikilink might work just as well and potentially alleviate some of the concerns. --Moonriddengirl 21:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Sure, no harm linking to the article with the quote. It's a shame the proposal for reference space never got realized; it would be so much easier for cases like this. PS. For any doubts about the balance, just look at the reference section in the article...-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  05:02, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Re. proposal "For a transcription of the relevant text and translation, please see footnote at (...)" - discouraged per WP:SELF: every page in the encyclopedia should be stand-alone (and should, for instance, be printable separately, with its own references, independent from other pages, including talk pages).

My general reasoning is this:

1. It doesn't appear to be a generally recognised "fact" that the repression described by Lesčius (et al.?) really took place. Which might not be too surprising, Polish history books would probably hardly (if at all) mention it. See also next section #Les.C4.8Dius_as_WP:RS;
2. For this reason, and in compliance with, for instance, WP:NPOV#A simple formulation, the contention is presented as a fact about an opinion (by Lesčius). That the repression took place is not presented as a fact itself.
3. In that case readers of the encyclopedia, on a page-by-page basis, should be able to form their own opinion (see also WP:NPOV policy).
4. In which case these readers should be given the appropriate material on which to base their opinion (per WP:NPOV, WP:V etc.).

Of course, if more sources could be found (in Polish, in English...) maybe there might come a consensus that the repression described by Lesčius can be represented as a "fact" directly in Misplaced Pages. So I invite all editors (including the pro-Polish ones) to find such additional sources. If found, the name of Lesčius could maybe be removed from the body of the article, the extensive quote replaced by a shorter reference to an English-language source etc...

Whether currently the Misplaced Pages article on Sejny gives too much attention to the alleged repression topic: I don't think so. That's my opinion, taking sides neither for Polish nor Lithuanian perspective (I couldn't be associated with either). Of course other editors are entitled to their own opinion in the matter. In this context, it might be useful to have a look at the remedies proposed at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus#Remedies too. --Francis Schonken 08:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thank you. I was not familiar with WP:Self. --Moonriddengirl 11:40, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all for additional comments. I have to agree with Francis Schonken, that article should have its own references and explanations rather then links to other places. Regarding Lesčius development presentation, as already said by other contributor (see below), book itself is capital one (probably newest and most comprehensive up to date regarding these developments); author's credentials and peer review panel proves that source meets necessary criteria per WP:RS. As Francis Schonken asked for additional sources which could concur Lesčius' ones, it is not a problem as presented facts by Lesčius is well established at least in Lithuanian historiography:

• a) Bronius Makauskas in his article written in Warsaw and reprinted in article Pietinės Sūduvos lietuviai už šiaudinės administracinės linijos ir geležinės sienos (1920–1991 m.)/Voruta, 1999 ISSN 1392-0677, No.27-30. Notes almost the same facts as Lesčius, particularly - ban of Lithuanian schools and organization (same statistics as in Lesčius book), ban of Lithuanian language in public, repressions towards certain people, confiscation of property etc., He also goes further and describes repressions in Punsk and other areas. Author of his article was born in Sejny , is historian, has doctoral degree, delivers lectures in Warsaw University working with prominent Polish researches, wrote set of history books. In my view meets basic criteria RS as well.
• b) In Bronius Kvirlys book Mūsų Lietuva Vol.3,1991 in p. 457 (720 pages in total), describing particular events in Seinai notes: ban of Lithuanian language in public, burning books, closing all Lithuanian press , 9 organizations with 1300 persons, schools (same statistic as per Lesčius), confiscation of property etc. These events he describe as terror and repressions.
• c) even gymnasium which was effected by these repressions in its web page (restarted its activities in Sejny now, from 1919 operated in exile) notes the same numbers (75 and 223) of pupils as Lesčius, Makauskas etc.

Conclusion. Events described by Lesčius can be easily references and double referenced with various other sources, so its is not any fringe theory, which some contributors describes , but the facts which are met in various academic publications. M.K. 12:32, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

If I'm understanding Francis Schonken's suggestion correctly, then it seems that the extensive translation is not necessary as the additional sources can be added to substantiate that this is fact, rather than relying solely on the single text which might be interpreted as opinion. Is that how you read it, M.K.? :) --Moonriddengirl 12:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I read it in this fashion :) M.K. 12:58, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I was looking more at the comment above, which says "If found, the name of Lesčius could maybe be removed from the body of the article, the extensive quote replaced by a shorter reference to an English-language source etc..." :) I realize none of the sources you bring up are English, but I would imagine the number of them would lend itself to credence. --Moonriddengirl 13:01, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

A, to this one, well none of these sources are in English, so we back again to WP:RSUE. M.K. 13:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's true, but the contributors at Village Pump have opined that the extensive quoting is not required by WP:RSUE. While they've felt that in some cases it may be helpful, I wonder if this continues to be one of those cases now that you're talking about multiple foreign language sources. If you've located other reputable sources that set forth the same claims made by Lesčius, it seems to be no longer necessary to introduce that material by saying, "Lithuanian historian Vytautas Lesčius claims that...." You should be able to start the sentence "After Poles acquired the town and its surroundings..." and source the claim with multiple sources, right? As I understand it, this is no longer a question of defending Lesčius's opinion, if there is consensus among multiple sources. --Moonriddengirl 13:17, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably this is the case then it may be helpful :) , especially knowing that Polish readers probably not know such facts. Lets see that Francis Schonken have to add. I agree that attribution Lithuanian historian... is not necessary now, M.K. 14:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, the translation is not helpful - it is not neutral and of undue weight to the article. The inhabitants suffered heavily under many regimes - Russian Empire, Soviet, Nazi - why are those not described in detail? And the "Lithuanian historian" attribution is important. Those claims are not confirmed by Polish or English historiography; hence they need to be attributed to Lithuanian historiography.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:47, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I support giving full scope of information when relevant to the article. The repressions should and are mentioned. The provided long citation is redundant here not only for technical reasons (gigantic, unproportional length) but also because of its inflammatory context. - Darwinek 21:50, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Is Bronius Makauskas' article, mentioned above by M. K. under "a)" in Polish? Since he's a Polish historian (or isn't he?), this seems to contradict directly what Piotrus contends above: "Those claims are not confirmed by Polish (...) historiography"...

Re. other details about other opressions: Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. You can edit almost any article on Misplaced Pages by just following the Edit link at the top of the page. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse.

Anyway, the Sejny article could do with more references, in order to improve its compliance to WP:V in general. OK, all the other content of the article might be in Polish and English historiography - how come I see so little references to notable reference works of this historiography? --Francis Schonken 20:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Bronius Makauskas is Lithuanian, not Polish. -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:22, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't ask whether he "is" Polish, I asked whether the piece he wrote was (written, published) not only in Poland (what M.K. contends), but also in Polish (the language). If so, this is part of "Polish historiography". Or do you mean Polish historiography is reserved to ethnic Poles? --Francis Schonken 20:34, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not aware of this article being published in Polish. Would be interesting in reading it in Polish or English.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:42, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Lesčius as WP:RS

It's not dubious - this book is written by Ph.D., published by Vilnius University and Jono Žemaičio War Accademy. Besides it has full scientific apparatus including over 700 references and was peer reviewed by two other renowned scholars and was recommended for print by Vilnius University History Departament. I think this makes this book credible enough.--Lokyz 10:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

There are many reliable sources which we are not adding here. Plus, a single foreign language book is problematic with regards to WP:REDFLAG.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:57, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. See comments above. M.K. 12:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

WP:WEASEL language instead of facts

There is initiative group, which insists to add WP:WEASEL language instead of facts. And facts are: ban of all Lithuanian press, closing all Lithuanian schools with ~300 pupils, closing 9 organizations with 1300 members, and not some. All this information are referenced with academic publications. Besides why there are so many attempts to remove fact that Poles burned Lithuanian books as well? M.K. 08:19, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Per n-th time, this is WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE detail. We don't list details of what this town has suffered under Soviet or Nazi's occupation, we don't describe minute details of Swedish looting and burning in 17th century or the ravages of the 18th century fire. And for the same reason, we don't add details or extensive quotations from publications on Ponary massacre to Panerai or on Kanuas Pogrom to Kaunas. The right place to describe the repressions is in Sejny Uprising, where your quotation/translation are not challenged. Stop pushing them to off-topic articles (it doesn't belong in Polish-Lithuanian relations or repression articles, neither).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  16:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

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