Revision as of 12:11, 29 October 2007

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Misplaced Pages:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:

Active alerts

Question regarding a rude editor

This user http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:70.188.24.125 has been insulting me nonstop despite my trying to calmly explain something to him and I'm just wondering why such a rude person is allowed here to begin with. I'm not the first person he's shown a bad attitude to. He's very egotistical, ill-mannered and obviously lacks the ability to show common courtesy to others. Wouldn't it be better for the site if he was permanently banned? Bokan 01:23, 3 October 2007 (UTC)Bokan

In general, IP's are only banned in severe cases due the risk of collateral damage (i.e., if the IP is dynamic, innocent bystanders can get whacked). That said, I'll leave a warning on the talk page. --Bfigura 01:44, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Everyone is allowed here - even anonymous people who are rude. Until they are banned, they are still welcome on Misplaced Pages. This user seems extraordinarily disruptive, and may require more banning - possibly: it may be difficult or inappropriate, since it's an anonymous IP contributor (which might ban more than one person, even innocent parties who share a computer). Based on the conversation on his/her talk page, the editor may have no intention of obeying WP:CIVIL, so I don't know if we can help. If the user vandalizes any page or does anything else actionable, you may request administrator action at the administrator's noticeboard. However uncivil his comments here might be, please keep in mind: (1) your edits are original research and actually don't belong in that article and (2) you brought up his/her past editing history (which may not even belong to the same person) as a way of discrediting him/her in the content dispute - this is actually a violation of etiquette guidelines. Clearly this user has a history of incivility, and has made no exception with you, but responding with incivility back-and-forth isn't going to help. --Cheeser1 02:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Everyone is allowed here so you better don't mind him or just ignore him. users or members or even a guest or visitor here in wikipedia are always welcome. They can talk or write what ever they want even they are in bad manners but still they can freely express there thoughts to anyone and everything in here. Users can also be banned but in reason if they violates the policies here in wikipedia but we don't know if they come back as a new user then he repeatedly insulting you, so then you better calm down and just ignore anyone who's insulting you. Just keep your mind relax and be a professional.--Oliviatrolles 15:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Use of sock puppets to evade bans is explicitly prohibited. The Misplaced Pages community has ways to identify those who create new accounts to evade bans. Your username goes here 16:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

User WaltCip

In User Categories for Deletion, The discussuion of removing the category Category:Wikipedians who survived cancer was rather personal when User:WaltCip responded to my comment to "go ahead and delete the category but have you read previous debated archives dealing with this". I noted his first comment was a rather personal slight but I did not attack anyone personally. His next comment clearly equated my actions as similar to anti-semetism which is very offisive and highly personal as the subject at hand (surviving cancer like I did) has zero to do with religion. I ask that the volunteers review this discourse and rener any appropriate decision. Respectfully, Mikebar 07:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

His somewhat personal, sarcastic comment was more likely in response to this comment from you: "The zealots who cannot read previous archived discussions win." In other words, sarcasm begat sarcasm. The point of the analogy regarding anti-semitism had to do with deleting categories, not to call you anti-semitic. It wasn't the most prudent analogy, since it can be easily misinterpreted as a suggestion of racism. But it's possible to assume good faith about it. To me, it looks like just cooling down and taking a break from each other is the best solution. The etiquette violations are on both sides, and relatively minor (assuming he didn't mean to call you racist). Let the personal dispute go. Bsharvy 09:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I basically agree with Bsharvy and would say that this is incredibly minor. Unless this incident has caused some sort of hard feelings or ongoing dispute, you both seem like you'd just as easily let it drop and never have a problem again. That's definitely the way to go. --Cheeser1 14:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like that is what has happened. Call this one resolved & thanks to both of you. Mikebar 07:07, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

That's right. I've also agreed both of you guys. Well, For me we better ignore those minor concerns like saying "Do what you want" without directly hit your feelings but with in your senses. It's understandable that all of us have the rights of what to say or what to do but with the attitude without hurting anyone feelings or with no personal intention to hurt feelings. So we better ignore somewhat personal intention and it is just like a comment to accept and to response.--Hannahmarqueza 18:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

User:SpigotMap

I ran across some comments that SpigotMap let on Talk:Bong. While I respect that SpigotMap wants to increase the quality of the article and the article desperately needs attention, SpigotMap is following a course of action on the talk page that is in direct violation of WP:CIVIL. I left a message on his talk page informing him of this, informing them that as a member of this community they must abide by the community guidelines including WP:CIVIL, and that failure to follow those guidelines can result in blocking. The response they left on my page was not in the spirit of cooperating or Misplaced Pages, basically coming down to "if others are not civil to me, I will not be civil to them." I do not wish to block this editor but I get the idea that they do understand the community guidelines, they do understand the ramifications, and they just do not care. Can someone please give this editor (or me, if I'm in the wrong here) some neutral feedback so they can understand how important the community process is? Triddle 15:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

User:JTBX disrupting PlayStation 2

- I have put warning on his page that he should not post NON-neutral viewpoints. - He just keeps erasing the warnings. - In addition, he keeps trying to add "most successful console" WITHOUT any citations. - .... even though he's been asked by the other editors to stop doing that & stop adding non-neutral viewpoints. - Thus his additions have gone from merely "non-neutral" to annoying & repetitive. - i.e. Vandalism.

I've had enough of his refusing to listen. - Theaveng 17:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Note: Title changed from "I'm reporting User_Talk:JTBXJTBX for disruption of PlayStation_2 (see history)".

Theaveng: This does not appear to be a Wikiquette issue. Judging by the edit history, this is purely a content dispute, and one where it's pretty clear that the person involved is not abiding by WP:CON or WP:NPOV. I don't see evidence that this person has been attacking anyone or being uncivil to them. This would probably be better reported to WP:AN/I. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Addendum to Theaveng: I'd just like to add that you should remember to keep your cool as well. I realize it's frustrating to deal with a stubborn editor, but don't fall into the temptation to start becoming uncivil and start making personal attacks against him - that will likely only inflame the situation and make it worse. In situations like this one, you have good reason to stop assuming good faith, since you've already warned the person and he's continuing to go against consensus. That's when it's time to report the user to the Admin Noticeboard. :) Just keep your cool, though, and you'll do fine. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 19:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

He's back. This time he revealed my personal info (real name) on the Talk page. Also it appears he may be using a sockpuppet (Ciao90) but there's no way for me to know for sure. - Theaveng 14:25, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If you suspect sockpuppetry, take it up at WP:SSP. As for your real name, that's a matter for WP:ANI - although it appears to me that his usage of it in this case was pretty innocent. The warning you gave him was quite proper, and unless he persists or reverts your deletion or something, I'd suggest you let that slide. It's your choice though, of course. Sarcasticidealist 14:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Nishidani

Skipping boring background... i'm making a huge effort to work with said user but the interaction has gone so wrong that i'm posting here.

A little while back he asked i find the "book of hebron" ("Sefer Hebron" request - I added here, 17 Sep.). At first he accepted the source (and even reverted it back in (1)(2)), but later he started objecting to information from the source being put into the introduction in what seemed to be a response to my rejection of jewsagainstzionism.com (about us), a website introduced by a POV partner, User:PalestineRemembered. later he cited bigoted explanations on how racist and criminal the people of Hebron are (7000 people) to justify his rejection and insisted either we accept both or reject both.

Despite him asking me to find out (and translate) material from the source (see here), he refuses to state acceptance of the source as valid on it's own - as is evident in this subsection.

sample diff: attempt at reconciliation - response.

-- Jaakobou 23:58, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating, Jaakobou. It's "bigoted" to claim that the Hebron settlers are "racist and criminal", but it's fine to call "the people of Hebron" 7000 people, in other words denying that Hebron's 166,000 Arabs are people. You don't even notice you're doing this, do you? <eleland/talkedits> 00:27, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

This Wikiquette notice was notified to Nishidani out of respect for policy, not in order to give his friends excuses to troll. Jaakobou 01:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

(I had a response here, but Jaakobou reverted it on the basis of "trolling". <eleland/talkedits> 03:49, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Removing another editors comments by falsely accusing them of trolling is far worse than any complaint I've seen this editor make. --Cheeser1 07:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Certainly Nishidani seems a bit hateful/rude in his communications. Is that not grounds for blocking? --Law Lord 02:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Another egregious case of time-wasting forum shopping by Jaakobou. I will not reply immediately to the absurd and distorting mirror of his synthesis, which gravely misrepresents key facts in a rather extenuating thread at this point, since I expect those who are keen to join in the proposed squabble will look very closely at the evidence and decide whether this accusation merits the attention it will certainly get from me, if a sudden consensus asserting I am a troublesome violator of netiquette does form. I will admit that, in an otherwise urbane tone, I have in one or two instances, used language which speaks the annoyance of exasperation at what, for want of a better word, I would call the obtusity of dialogic stonewalling exemplifed by Jaakobou, who, it strikes me, is a minute pettifogger on rules that serve his own pronounced and decidedly lob-sided POV, but at the same time, wholly nonchalant in attending to repeated requests by his interlocutors for closer definition of what he is trying to insinuate into texts.

There are far too many pages requiring serious editorial attention for me to jump into this kind of bickering, unless of course it assumes serious consequences, a bickering that distracts editors from the primary work of actually contributing productively to the drafting of decent articles. Please note, my page record (one inadvertent violation of 3RR, when I was still new to the rules, and was maliciously dragged into a trap) versus Jaakobou's impressive record for bunfights with other editors. I will wait to see how seriously this adventitious series of charges is taken by others in the community before mulling the option of analysing in detail the substance of Jaakobou's selective memory of what occurred. Serene regards to all. (And, regards to Law Lord. This is the second time in some days that Denmark has roused its native democratic spirits to intervene in a case involving Jaakobou, to support his interests. I have always admired Scandinavian culture, and I welcome your concern. Look closely and I feel assured that you will find here that the instances cited by our mutual friend are, as the Swedes say, prov utan värde) Nishidani 09:31, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - User:Nishidani is a first rate editor the project cannot afford to lose. His treatment by Jaakobou was already a disgrace before this action. Nishidani's thinking (as seen on TalkPages) shines with scholarship. He transfers that scholarship (both his own and the work of others) into articles. He has been generous of his time explaining his thinking in detail - to User:Jaakobou in particular. He has several times reverted me on things, but I have never so much as objected because his natural feel for writing encyclopedic articles is clearly so good. I have suggested and even pleaded with him not to allow Jaakobou to waste his time, with apparently little effect, as he has continued to be patient - even when, increasingly, the response to his carefully thought and well expressed paragraphs are insulting one-liners. (Later - this is how Nishidani responded to first hearing of this "Book of Hebron". The behavior of a real scholar - lets count ourselves privileged to share a little bit of work-space with him).
• Meanwhile, User:Jaakobou is a serial complainer who has wasted (and is wasting) a huge amount of the time of good-faith editors just with his complaints, never mind the damaging effect he has on articles. It's only 4 days ago he was found to have been "Forum Shopping" with his nonsense. He promised to stop doing it. Instead of which, he's simply transfered his unwanted attentions to another victim - and this time to the even more clear detriment of the project.
• Anyone who might be startled by what I've said should examine Jaakobou's diffs. Nishidani was positive to the expensively produced web-site of the Hebron settlers until it sank in just who they were and what they're up to. It's no exaggeration to call them a lot worse than US neo-Nazis. Have a look here or here to be horrified - or even feel physically sick. PR 20:54, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

As a note, this dispute also seems to be occurring on ANI here. --Bfigura 20:57, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I've looked through as much as I can of this and I believe this is a frivolous complaint, stemming from a content dispute. I'm marking this as referred elsewhere, since there's an ANI going anyway. I believe that there are alot of issues going on here that are way out of bounds for the WQA, and I was going to toss my opinion out there, but I realized that it's really not something I want to touch with a 10 foot pole. I will say though that this, for example, demonstrates the fact that this WQA complaint was not made in good faith, and appears to be inappropriate. --Cheeser1 07:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

i'm terribly sorry to re-open this, but this has absolutely zero to do with User:PalestineRemembered who's under observation by the community for an impressive track record of policy breaches (and is under forced mentorship). i've opened this because i'm having serious difficulty in discussing issues with User:Nishidani who at first requested this book, and won't agree to it based on (1) a grossly false comparison with jewsagainstzionism.com and (2) because of his concern that he can't read the source and thus will be rendered at a disadvantage. Jaakobou 07:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The reliability of a source is in question, as a part of a content dispute - a very large content dispute already under scrutiny at the AN/I. If you really want to talk sources, try the reliable sources noticeboard. If you want to discuss the content dispute, do it on the article's talk page. What you've just explained above may be (1) a bad analogy and (2) an issue of reliable sources and verifiability, but it's not a Wikiquette issue - disagreement is not incivility. I see nothing here that demonstrates incivility on Nishidani's part. In a contentious content dispute like this, it's not unheard of or out of place for editors to say that others are advancing a particular POV, and often they are right. It does not constitute incivility, especially given the fact that you've been just as uncivil, if not more, even in this WQA. Unlike saying "POV," removing someone else's comments on a talk page is never allowed unless it's vandalism, and frivolous accusations of trolling/vandalism do qualify as incivility. --Cheeser1 08:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Nishidani: It seems clear that this case in far more comprehensive than I had thought. I will recede and refrain from further comment. --Law Lord 09:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your reflection and the generosity of replying to my remarks, which contain an innuendo I now readily withdraw. Regards Nishidani 09:24, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Jaakobou (and N) -- Yes, I see that you both are having difficulty discussing your content/source dispute. But in terms of user conduct, I don't think either of you have egregious conduct. (Well, you both sometimes resort to unkind etc. wording, but not so unusual around here.) Your biggest problem is that you tend to over-react to tone and process, rather than stick to the subject matter -- e.g., the source, WP policy and the like. You distract each other. In article Talk, stay on topic, and bring up you process/civility concerns on a different page (your Talk pages or another User page, for starters, else maybe MedCab?). Then, edit down your article Talking to keep it strictly on the subject, no ad hominem comments, no tit-for-tat accusations, etc. If you guys can't exercise enough self-discipline to disattend the "static" (or deal w/it via another page, as I've described), then how can you claim to be qualified and capable of editing such disputed pages? Thanks. HG | Talk 13:33, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

comment by thread opener: this has nothing to do with the ANI, however, the RSN might be a better location to pursue the content dispute - i see, issues of civility mean nothing in this place. Jaakobou 07:15, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You may think there was incivility, but you certainly didn't provide any diffs to explain what's going on here. The evidence I've seen suggests an ongoing content dispute in which Nishidani appears to be very firmly sticking to WP:V. You have disagreements about what is verifiable and what is a reliable source. Nothing you provided at any time in this dispute constitutes incivility, although this response and this edit are actually quite inappropriate. The fact that you edit other people's comments is inappropriate, for starters, and if you ask for a third-party to intervene or comment on a dispute, when people don't disagree with you, insulting them will get you nowhere. --Cheeser1 07:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Yitzhak Hudas

Above editor has accused me of "whitewashing" antisemitism on the Dalit Voice page, where you can see the history. Also said I had been "whitewashing" on the Antisemitism page. I take strong exception to this accusation. I also believe this editor to be a sockpuppet of User:Hkelkar and have reported this. As instructed above, I went to his talk page to warn him. I was not as polite as I usually am (I spent hours discussing patiently with Hkelkar before he was blocked and turned into a prolific sockpuppeteer and also was polite to his alter ego User:Nahartasanhedrin, who was blocked as an alternate account without being formally linked to Hkelkar). I do not want to spend any more time on what is essentially feeding a troll. I need some advice on how to deal with this quickly without tacitly admitting to antisemitic beliefs that I emphatically do not have. Itsmejudith 21:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

There's been a fair amount of discussion on the article's talk page (here), is there still an issue that needs to be resolved? Best, --Bfigura 02:16, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes because the talk page discussion is quite rightly about the article. This is about this "user". I've just noticed that I completely messed up my attempt to have him blocked as a sockpuppet of Hkelkar but I need a quick solution otherwise we're all wasting our time with what is basically just trolling. Itsmejudith 06:55, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Could you please provide diffs of edits that you consider to be uncivil or personal attacks? Thanks. All I'm seeing is a content dispute, and honestly, if you appear to be removing legitimate claims about anti-semitism, then you are whitewashing - that's what the term whitewashing means, and if that's what he thinks you're doing, then that's what he's going to say. Now, is that really what you're doing? I don't know - I'd assume that's not what you're doing. But it's not like he called you a "big dumb nazi jerk" - not that I can see. So please, provide us with some diffs. Thanks. --Cheeser1 07:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Meatpuppet allegation

In an edit summary, GreenJoe made the allegation that I am a meatpuppet. I take this claim seriously and have repeatedly asked GreenJoe to either withdraw the comment or present his evidence at WP:SSP. Thus far, all requests have gone unaddressed. The exchange can be found under the subject "Edit summary" at Concordia University talk page, GreenJoe's talk page, and my own talk page. Victoriagirl 16:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that edit summaries are effectively a write-only medium; it's possible to change them but not always practical. So, retracting the comment is not an option--certainly not within his hands as a user. I think an apology would have been a polite thing to do. It's not inherently incivil to not apologize, but it shows less than an abundant show of good faith in fellow editors.

That said, the comments are in his edit history, and should he start committing other acts of incivility or disruption, it would be weighed by the administrator determining how to deal with him. —C.Fred (talk) 16:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I recognize that an edit summary might not be easily changed. In asking that the comment be withdrawn, I am not seeking a deletion or rewriting of history, but an acknowledgement the allegation is incorrect. That said, since filing this alert, GreenJoe has placed a post on my talk page indicating that he stands by the comment. I have responded by again asking that he present his evidence. Victoriagirl 19:19, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I've chimed in on the talk page as well. This seems to be unfounded and in violation of WP:NPA, not to mention WP:CIVIL. --Bfigura 19:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

GreenJoe has indicated that he will nether withdraw the charge nor present any evidence in support of the allegation. After mulling over the advice offered, I have decided to walk away from the matter and have written GreenJoe as much. My thanks to all who offered council. Victoriagirl 23:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Probably not a meatpuppet. Definitely a stalker with an agenda. Dominic J. Solntseff 17:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

While I usually ignore comments by Dominic J. Solntseff (talk · contribs), the irony is of such a level that it is worthy of note. Victoriagirl 18:49, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

A typical non-answer answer by this dishonest and disingenous editor, who works so very hard to push an agenda on Misplaced Pages while trying to Wiki-fiddle her way into an admin spot. Dominic J. Solntseff 23:52, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Please provide evidence of your accusations against Victoriagirl. We cannot help mediate this situation if we don't have anything to go on. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:05, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Angry comments / edit wars on two Anti-semitism-related AfD's

I'm not sure what exactly is the locus of the dispute, but these AfDs seem to have led to an extremely heated discussion and accompanying edit warring right on the AfD pages.

• WP:AFD/The Protocols of Zion (imprints)
• WP:AFD/The Jewish Bolshevism

Also note the accompanying talk pages.

Someone with a strong stomach should wade in and try to sort things out. (As a side note, I'm not convinced that the whole AfD thing was necessary, since it seems more like a merge proposal, but whatever.) <eleland/talkedits> 01:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a look at the first one ("Protocols of Zion") and see if I can ask for calm on the talk page. --Bfigura 01:13, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

These seem to have calmed down some. It's not quite resolved, but the heat/light ratio seems to have settled down. (And resolution should come when the AfD's close. Marking as stuck for now. --Bfigura 04:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Proper Cornish?

Following the publication of advice from the Cornish Language Commission to the Cornish Language Partnership at http://www.magakernow.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=38616 on 13 October 2007, here has been some seriously unwikipedian activity at Talk:Cornish language. Any peace-making available would be much welcomed. Some blocks on unregistered users may be needed and at least one registered rhetorical user needs some firm advice. Until persistent vandalistic behaviour is reduced it will not be possible for the article to be properly updated to an encyclopaedic standard. Vernon White 19:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I would favour protecting the article from edits by unregistered users. -- Evertype·✆ 07:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Still unregistered users can edit the articles. If they blocked by the administrator that's the way surely protected from unregistered users from editing.--Jeshermoza 19:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

The Golden Stiletto belongs in any discussion about drag

Editor DeRahier, whose expertise is in putting funny marks on foreign words, is saying that a link to the Golden Stiletto doesn't belong and constitutes spam. The Golden Stiletto is a resource for anyone wishing to learn about drag. It belongs in this encyclopedia as an external link, at least. Here is the headline of the blog. *The Golden Stiletto Suisse Kelly and Elle Beret report on everything d.r.a.g. -- performance reviews, product, illusion, tips, interviews, resources, culture, sexualite, cock soup for the drag soul. The Golden Stiletto is dedicated to building and raising the art and execution of drag. The blog does not sell anything nor is it involved in any profit making. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kainoahemolele (talk • contribs) 19:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC) This template must be substituted.

Wow. Um, this page is about wikiquette -- and the core principle of wikiquette is to remain civil in your interactions with and comments about other editors; and your comments about DéRahier (t c) strike me as particularly rude. Please take a moment to examine your motivations and tone. Also, please note that "link spam" doesn't mean that the site being linked is commercial or trying to sell anything - it means you're "spamming" the article by adding an undesirable (in that person's opinion) link. Thirdly, please note that the preferred process to resolve this kind of disagreement is to open discussion about it on the article's talk page — don't just jump straight to a form of dispute resolution without first trying to have a conversation about the problem with the person you're disagreeing with.

Regarding the link itself, although we typically don't comment on content here at WP:WQA, see the external link guideline, specifically the links normally to be avoided section, number 12. That guideline specifically states that blogs and similar sites are to be avoided as links unless they are written by a recognized authority in the subject area. Since the site is hosted by blogspot.com, ergo it is a blog.

Someone obviously disputes that the authors of that blog are recognized authorities. If you think they are authorities that satisfy the EL policy, then you need to say why you think that on the talk page of the article, preferably with links to other sources that support your opinion - a news article that mentions the blog authors as being significant, etc. --Darkwind (talk) 19:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, you did not notify the user who is the subject of this alert as to its existence. I will do so for you. --Darkwind (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

As I'm spending my spare time to improve the quality of WP's articles, like reverting vandalism and inappropriate edits, I did find this topic concerning my counter-vandalism before I got Darkwind's alert. The tone of Kainoahemolele aka 66.8.205.91 about me makes me smile rather than offending me, I know better than that. But to the facts : this user anonymously added the same and dubuous external link on not less than 7 different articles, and added it back several times after they had been removed. This is spam and nothing else.

I wish WP having more vandalism-fighters and less abusers.

DéRahier 19:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Interesting vlog but hardly worth including at this time. There are dozens of better websites that clearly are resources for those wishing to learn about drag minus the requirement of watching videos. Benjiboi 22:00, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

What is the definition of a recognized authority in WP? Can someone provide the link? I was unable to locate it. Darkwind, thank you for coming down on the issue and citing specific provisions that that blog may have violated. The other editors didn't know enough to cite them for a single-purpose user. Also, Darkwind, you know should know that it was WP that said to start here first after a discussion with the recalcitrant editor. I had a discussion with him over the message system before there was a discussion on the talk page. I'll get better at this.--Kainoahemolele 17:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Conflict between users regarding pages on Korean Universities -pers. attacks, incivility

Users: Epthorn and Patriotmissile

Pages involved: Talk pages of users, and following articles:

1) Korea_University (talk page and very recent edits)

2) Sungkyunkwan_University (talk page)

3) SKY_(schools) (Talk page, bottom)

I do not want to go into detail here (for neutrality's sake) but this is a conflict I am afraid my end up moving from the talk pages to the actual articles. I hope this will provide some help of an informal nature. Especially useful would be some help from users who cannot be accused of puppetry, etc because of their long wiki histories. I would be tempted to just leave the issue alone but since there are few users interested I think there is little chance the articles would be improved.

I apologize for the general scope of the request, it does stretch across several articles- if someone would like me to explain reasoning or establish a better timeline, please let me know via my talk page. Thanks for any help you can provide. Also sorry for the format, I'm not yet particularly good at linking within wikipedia. Epthorn 18:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Epthorn - I'd like to help, but I would really appreciate it if you would summarize the conflict, and maybe provide some representative diffs. It's pretty overwhelming to jump in there without context. If you're worried about neutrality, just be as neutral as you can; we're pretty experienced at cutting through non-neutral content summaries anyway. Sarcasticidealist 18:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a calm down message here to see if people will stop slinging around blatant insults. I'll wait on a summary before doing anything else though --Bfigura 19:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. I will try and summarize the situation as best I can, and then see if I can figure out the diffs (I've not had to do this before)

-I read through Korea University's wiki page and thought it looked like an advert and was not NPOV. Overall I considered the article to be a poor example of what an encyclopedia should look like, so I decided to remark this on the talk page. I also added a "POV" tag to the page.

-User Patriotmissile seemed to immediately believe I was a puppet of another user, "Brincos." He continues to accuse me of this, despite my requests for him to take it up with an admin. Believing that I am from another University in Korea trying to vandalize Korea University's website, he has made several veiled threats to "edit" that article in kind (my characterization of 'threats' is, of course, my own).

-Patriotmissile also brought me up on the Sungkyunkwan_University page. At that point I got annoyed that he was misquoting me as an excuse to make edits there.

-Patriotmissile and I also clashed on the SKY_(schools) page even though I basically agreed with him (at least insofar as I thought the page should exist). He still remarked that I was a puppet for Brincos. I'm not sure how much of this is miscommunication, but I haven't had much luck clearing it up and it's making editing difficult.

Now that you've heard my 'side', please give me a few minutes and hopefully I can provide the specifics in terms of "diffs" Epthorn 21:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, sorry if this is a poor format, but here is one example I found particularly unnecessary as P.M. tried to misquote me on a page and then tried to blackmail me by threatening another University's article (which he has since marked as POV in the last few minutes). http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3ASungkyunkwan_University&diff=166315966&oldid=157049751

Here is the infamous "dog" statement. Please judge for yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3APatriotmissile&diff=165811617&oldid=165361250

Finally, if you look at this page you can see what started all this. I cannot quite get the diffs right for this one, sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Korea_University#POV.2FNeutrality_redux

Those are somewhat extensive diffs, and there are more. Many, many more. All basically follow the same pattern though... I'm a puppet from some other Korean university who should leave the country. Anyway, I hope this helps a little. Epthorn 21:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

And now, since it's 7am in Korea, I should be getting to bed. Please let me know via my talk page especially if there's anything further I can do later. Hopefully I've roused enough 3rd parties that a consensus will eventually be possible (it's hard with 2 people who simply don't agree). Epthorn 22:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the diffs - those are very helpful. I agree that User:Patriotmissile has been behaving uncivilly. I'll leave him/her a polite note, and see where things go from there. Sarcasticidealist 22:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I hope that is the end of it. The user apologized for the allegations of puppetry. Hopefully this will result in a more productive edit discussion, especially with some new blood. Unless it attracts sharks. This was a useful board, hopefully I can pay it back as I gain experience. Thanks again, Epthorn 05:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Ciao 90 on the Playstation 2 page

Basically, he keeps rewriting the "consensus introduction" that everybody agrees with, and inserting his own introduction (thus deleting valuable info in the process). Our requests for him to stop have been ignored and he just keeps doing it. I've already issued a warning on his talk page, but he seems to have ignored it, and continued his behavior. - Theaveng 20:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I've had a look at the talk page, and I don't actually see that there has been a consensus. It would certainly be preferable for User:Ciao 90 to focus more on developing a consensus than on revert-warring, but it looks to me that the wording of the introduction is still an open question. If I'm misreading this, could you direct me to the portion of the talk page where "everybody" (which I would take to mean you, User:Dancter, User:JTBX, User:Vdub49, and User:Silver Edge) agrees on an intro? Sarcasticidealist 20:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Theaveng claims false consensus and refuses to properly discuss on Talk page what I've made my statement. He also keeps warning me as vandalism not signing their posts on my talk page in avoidance behavior - he wouldn't want discuss and reach conseus, he's just forcing a revert war with insults, weasel words and emotional statements. --Ciao 90 15:38, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Fabartus

If anyone wants to try and break impass, feel free.

I've received a few messages on my talk page from Fabartus (talk · contribs) in response to a content issue that seem far more aggressive and uncivil than necessary. I've requested that he stop posting on my talk page and discuss content on the article's talk page. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Chaz 01:50, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi ChazBeckett. Since I've been helped on this page I'm happy to try and look at issues here as well. Having skimmed over your talk page, it looks as though things got a bit overheated, probably because editors naturally tend to get defensive when an article they've worked on gets changed (WP:OWN). I'll look at the content page and in the meantime a little cool-off period may be best. Epthorn 09:59, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Chazbeckett, I tend to agree that Fabartus (talk · contribs) made some remarks that are, at best, not constructive. I added a request to his talk page that he be a little more careful about that. Once thing to remember is that even though you are not required to note edits on the talk page and explain them, it can sometimes help. WP:BOLD is a useful guideline, especially with non-controversial edits... but can hinder constructive editing when people disagree. While I am not taking a position on the edit itself, may I suggest that you ask for outside opinions? Perhaps a good place to start would be Portal:American_football where you can ask for help or take a look at how other articles have been written. Then again, maybe after a little time both of you will be able to work together.I hope this helps, and feel free to comment back if you think the situation still is unresolved. Epthorn 11:16, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, Epthorn, I agree completely with your remarks. On my part, I probably could and should have better explained my reasons for reversion on the article's talk page. I have made several comments there since and hopefully that should encourage input from other editors. I'd like to think that any content issues can be worked out, I'm just not used to dealing with personal attacks. Thanks again, Chaz 11:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh oh, whenever someone completely agrees with my remarks it means I must have done something wrong. Epthorn 14:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for trying, Epthorn. I'm hoping that discussion on the article talk page can resolve the content issues, though the conduct issues may prove a bit more difficult. Content issues become exacerbated when incivility and assumptions of bad faith enter the equation. Anyway, I'll try to avoid Fabartus as much as possible; fortunately I don't think there's a great deal of overlap on the articles we edit. Thanks, Chaz 14:58, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

That would be a good way to avoid problems. WP:MEDCAB is another non-binding method of resolving a dispute, but it too requires cooperation from all parties which I suspect would not necessarily be forthcoming. I'm going to call this dispute "stuck" for the time being. Epthorn 17:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Matter unresolved User Fabartus (talk · contribs) believes he was in the right and rebuffed suggestions otherwise on his userpage User_talk:Fabartus; I believe he asserts that Chaz was uncivil by reverting Fabartus's edits. You can also see Fabartus' reply on my talk page User_talk:Epthorn. I have informed him of this dispute page if he wishes to make his thoughts known directly. If this continues to be an issue I am afraid something else along the WP:Dispute may have to be explored, although perhaps the two users (or one who chooses to be WP:COOL) should simply lay off the offending site for a bit of time and invite third party intervention in terms of content WP:RFC if the dispute continues. Epthorn 14:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

User:StevenBlack

When User:Butseriouslyfolks slapped an AfD on an article that was less than two hours old, StevenBlack (talk · contribs) went into a full-court press, removing and moving the AfD template multiple times, calling it "heavy-handed" and "bullying", and generally violating WP:CIVIL at every turn. Can someone with a little more distance from the subject step in and help this from getting out of hand? (I know nothing about the subject, but I do know this editor from the Fox community, and don't particularly want to be at odds with him.) Thanks. --SarekOfVulcan 05:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The AfD-moving came up on AN/I - it's the civility violations that I'm looking for help with.--SarekOfVulcan 05:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Reply: For the record, I was unaware at the time about Misplaced Pages AfD protocol. I apologize unreservedly for first removing it, then moving it to the discussion page, then moving it to the bottom of the topic page. I didn't know. Mea Culpa. But the besmirching of the credibility of a topic that was barely two hours old, this after it was unilaterally deleted with no recourse -- no way to even retrieve its contents from history -- I consider that to be heavy-handed, extreme, and frankly, odious. You want respect? Then show some basic respect. I remind you: I am here with my name in full. All the people involved here are hiding behind nicknames. Consider how all this might appear from my perspective. I've been an active wikipedian for ages and I have NEVER been abused like I have been abused today. KNOCK IT OFF and let me finish my work. Then judge. StevenBlack 05:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Steven - thank you for accepting responsibility for your mistreatement of the AfD tag. Misplaced Pages policies are extensive, and I doubt anybody is familiar with all of them, so we all make the occasional mistake, and admitting it is the only reasonable way of handling these.

I'm not going to deal with the question of whether the placement of the AfD tag was appropriate, because that's really not a Wikiquette issue. Instead I'm going to focus on the issues of user conduct that aren't directly related to the content dispute. Here are some of my thoughts there:

• While it is your choice to reveal your full name (I make the same choice on my user page), the fact that others choose not to do so in no way devalues their contributions. Pseudonymity and anonymity are both explicitly allowed by Misplaced Pages policy - it is inappropriate to accuse people of "hiding behind" nicknames.
• I think that there have been violations of WP:CIVIL on both sides, albeit not critically serious ones (for example, this is inappropriately sarcastic on the part of User:Butseriouslyfolks, while this is slightly uncivil and fails to assume good faith).
• Since this has gone to WP:AFD, the content dispute over whether or not the article should exist should be resolved shortly. Hopefully that will help resolve the civility issues, since the community will have determined whether or not the article should exist.
• Steven, since there seems to be some resistance to having the article exist in its present form, you might consider developing it more fully in your userspace, and then posting the content to the article once it's fully-developed.

I hope this has been helpful to all those concerned, and I hope that the incivility ceases once the AfD process is completed (at the very latest). Sarcasticidealist 10:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

In the comment above about "hiding behind nicknames", StevenBlack ignores both that I have my real name on my userpage, and that he should have a pretty good idea who SarekOfVulcan is from previous off-WP association. Also, where does this diff fall on the "critically serious" spectrum?--SarekOfVulcan 14:51, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

CLARIFICATION: Note that I wrote Butserioulyfolks is acting like an... and not is an.... I stand by that. In this case, Butserioulyfolks was most definitely acting abusively. StevenBlack 16:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

That's a good example of incivility, despite being totally correct. This user's conduct is inappropriate; however, I believe he is right. We can't seek out new pages and immediately AfD them while others are right in the middle of writing them (including adding the required references, etc). I believe such an action is also fairly disruptive (although incivility may not exactly describe it), and while I'll assume good faith, I'd say that in the case of this AfD, that assumption comes with some reservation. --Cheeser1 15:00, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

AGREEMENT: I can attest that a wholly premature AfD is VERY disruptive, besmirches the work, AND discourages otrher Wikipedians from contributing at the very moment an article is best subject of input and fleshing. In this case, it turned an article ABOUT Lake Ontario Waterkeeper into a battle to HOST AN ARTICLE ABOUT Lake Ontario Waterkeeper and that just isn't right. Considering Butseriouslyfolks' standing here, I consider this an abuse of power and I am requesting a formal apology. StevenBlack 16:22, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Just by way of background, the article was first posted and deleted as a copyvio and per A7. When the article was re-created, a third editor prodded it, I prodded it rather than A7 to give the author a chance to fix the problems but the author removed the prod without fixing. So I AfD'd it rather than A7 to give the author a chance to fix the problems. Then the author went about aggressively removing the AfD template and dropping abusive posts on my user talk page and elsewhere . I'm a patient admin, but I'm certainly not perfect. I do try and rise above, but I do occasionally break down and defend myself. -- But|seriously|folks  15:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks to me that he was in the process of cleaning it up and expanding it when you put the AfD on. It was just over an hour since his last edit when you nominated it for deletion. That's really jumping the gun, IMHO...--SarekOfVulcan 16:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW, if it was you prodding it, why does the history show a different account doing it?--SarekOfVulcan 16:06, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Because I'm wrong! Somebody else prodded it. I fixed my comment above. Also, the author had not been back to the article in over an hour, and I had no way to know whether he was coming back. Stubs are fine as far as I'm concerned, but they still have to meet WP:N from the time they are posted. -- But|seriously|folks  16:31, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

The comments that ButSeriouslyFolks brings to light (those on his user page) are very inappropriate. StevenBlack appears to be overreacting to what was a poor, but I believe good faith (now that the back-history of this article was given), AfD of the article in question. Nobody makes formal apologies, nobody besmirches work, etc. It was a misunderstanding, and BSF should be more careful in the future, but Steven began dropping uncivil comments all over the place and removed the AfD template (which is not allowed, without exception), which I believe was disruptive. He could have civilly and calmly made his case at the AfD. --Cheeser1 07:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

For the record, nothing in the deletion policy gives a "grace time" to articles before they can be tagged with {{prod}} or {{AfD}}. Doing so might not be the nicest thing to do, but it is neither abusive nor rude. AfDs run for 5 days, and the article can be expanded during this time. The deleting admin is supposed to take into consideration the final shape of the article after the full course of the AfD, rather than the state it was at the begining. While BsF might have been nice and waited a few more hours before sending the article, he was under no obligation to do so (personally, if an article doesn't change for an hour, I believe the user has switched to something else). -- lucasbfr 12:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

user:Sarvagnya's deletion of my Talk:India posts

• Earlier today I made this post on the Talk:India page about some potential problems I foresaw with the rotation of images being currently tried in two sections of the India page. (I had earlier organized the straw poll for/against this rotation here.)
• Almost immediately after I made the post, user:Sarvagnya deleted it in this edit, with edit summary, "this is a discussion page. not a blog. blogs are free, go find one and record your idle musings about your "vivid experiences" with encarta or whatever."
• user:Sarvagnya's edit was soon reverted here by user:Dwaipayanc, however, user:Sarvagnya re-reverted here with edit summary, "rv abuse of talk page. see WP:TALK and WP:NOT."

This is not the first time user:Sarvagnya has done this to my Talk:India posts.

• He deleted my post there in late August 2007, (see here).
• He then made a post in early September 2007 on the Talk:India page here, which ended with, "For now, I reject all of Fowler's filibustering as nonsense. Can somebody tell me why I shouldnt delete all his nonsense as rank abuse of a talk page?"
• This in turn elicited a polite but firmly opposing response here from user:Abecedare.
• However, when user:Sarvagnya persisted in the very next post here and, moreover, accused me of "defecating all over the talk page," he brought on a more aggressive response here from user:Hornplease, who threatened to report user:Sarvagnya to Wikiquette alerts.
• I should add that user:Sarvagnya is less than forgiving when he is at the receiving end; my edit once here that merely put his out-of-chronological order interruption in proper chronological order, elicited this response from him, with edit summary, "i will add my comment where I think fit.. stop moving other people's comments around!"

If user:Sarvagnya has some genuine complaint against me, he should pursue it in the relevant Misplaced Pages forums, but I am tired of his deleting talk page content. His general rudeness is one thing, but this is beyond the pale. Please advise! Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, look who's talking. Mr. Fowler, let's look at these Wikiquette (sic) edits of yours:

To User:Sarvagnya Perhaps you could return to the Karnataka article and start preparing for its next FAR and in your wake spin-off yet another generation of shimmering daughter article ... For an editor, such as yourself, whose ill-humored, carping, and nonsensical comments on these pages (including ones above directed at me), are a legion, it is presumptuous to decide what is nonsense

To User:Gnanapiti what the heck is the matter with you? what is illogical other than you knee-jerk tendency to revert; don't you have anything better to do

To User:Embargo don't know who you are, but you are a new comer to this page, which I am not (see talk page)

To User:Bharatveer you are pathetic! I wrote this article and knew him; you don't know the first thing about the guy, and keep wasting time with your precious little obsessions

To User:Bakasuprman what's the heck is the matter with you dude; read the discussion, there's a link to pdf whhich explicitly says he an athheist; hkelkar still pulling your strings?

To User:Nikkul Don't know what the heck you're trying to pull dude, but you're getting to be tiring...

To User:Szhaider If you can't write grammatical English, then don't.

To his so-called Indian POV warriors Apparently the Indian POV warriors can't write the English Language. May I suggest the Hindi wikipedia

To User:Nikkul Nikkul, you should be ashamed of yourself.

The reason these users have not pulled you to admins for the personal attacks above is that they assume good faith with you. The least you can do is to reciprocate that gesture. So stop feeling tired, pained and grieved if people return the above favour that you have been giving them.-- ¿Amar៛ 15:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I've left a note regarding the refactoring of your comments. Best, --Bfigura 00:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

To user:Amarrg: I am assuming the links above are meant for me? Since this section is really about user:Sarvagnya's actions and not mine, you should really open a new case against me here on Wikiquette Alerts or on some other Misplaced Pages forum. Meanwhile, I have replied to your post elsewhere. I apologize to the Wikiquette Alert volunteers for replying here and adding to their work. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You are not immune from scrutiny here, and your comments to others are certainly relevant to the way others deal with you. -- But|seriously|folks  20:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, I am requesting user:Amarrg to open a Wikiquette Alert against me. I just felt, given what user:Bfigura gave me to understand in another context (about not increasing the volunteers' work), that this was not the best place for it, but if you think it is, please go ahead. However, please examine both the past and the aftermath of each of those incidents. As I say in my post, referred to above as "elsewhere,"

My point is not to attack the characters of these people, but to make the point that my words were (inappropriate to be sure) responses to their behavior, not vice-versa. That nevertheless doesn't absolve me of responsibility for those words, and for them I apologize unreservedly to my interlocutors. Regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

PS What I mean by the "past and the aftermath" is this: I am quoted above as saying, "Nikkul you should be ashamed of yourself." I did say those words, but what is not mentioned is that, I made a series of edits and a few minutes later my words looked like this:

Nikkul, you should be ashamed of yourself. After all you've been through on the India page, you go back to the goofy stuff. Why? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC) PS. Nikkul, I apologize for my choice of words. I didn't mean to be demeaning. You are someone who is clearly interested in improving the image content on India-related pages, and everyone can see that you have talent and drive, so why not use them more productively? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The changes were made of my own volition, not consequent to a response from Nikkul or anyone else. Here is the relevant section of the talk page. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:36, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

PPS And now that old memories are being dredged up, an isolated quote from what I said to Nikkul doesn't say that I gave him the benefit of the doubt even after he had been banned for sockpuppeteering on the India page, when I tried to patiently explain to him how to paraphrase an article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Category:Ferns

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Cyathea_capensis&diff=prev&oldid=166681442

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Alan_Liefting&diff=166706471&oldid=166039490

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Emesee&diff=166707458&oldid=166707081

Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_October_24#Category:Ferns

User:Alan Liefting's actions seem like a blatant disregard of Misplaced Pages:Revert#When to revert, and don't seem appropriate. --Emesee 13:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Based on this diff you provided, it seems an explanation has been provided, although it should have been in the edit summary. I'll leave a nice note on his talk page saying as much (since I'm willing to AGF that it was an innocent mistake). Since this is already at CfD, I don't think more needs to be done at the moment. Best, --Bfigura 16:00, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive, bad-faith edits by Gene Nygaard

Help. I need assistance with editor User:Gene_Nygaard. He disagrees on factual disputes on the Kilogram article that are totally beyond any debate in science. His arguments have been debated to infinity and back and he ignores reason. For instance, he continued to argue that “weight” does not mean “force due to gravity”. When he was told the following:

Encyclopedia Britannica very simply defines “weight” as “ gravitational force of attraction on an object, caused by the presence of a massive second object, such as the Earth or Moon.” Misplaced Pages’s Weight article defines weight as follows: In the physical sciences, weight is a measurement of the gravitational force acting on an object. World Book (print edition) says this under Weight: Weight is the gravitational force put forth on an object by the planet on which the object is located. Further, the Kilogram article adheres perfectly to Encyclopedia Britannica’s discussion of the distinction between “weight” and “mass”. The article also gives proper and fair treatment to the fact that the term “weight” in common vernacular can occasionally mean “mass.”

…He responded with “There's no reason for us to stoop to Encyclopedia Britannica.” He also said “Misplaced Pages is not a reliable source” and then linked “reliable source” to Misplaced Pages’s own Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. His point was that the link in the Kilogram article that linked to weight wasn’t suitable. He didn’t agree with either Misplaced Pages’s definition nor Encyclopedia Britannica’s. With regard to World Book, he responded only with “Now World Book too?”

One of the editors who disagreed with him is a professor of astrophysics. This would normally carry extra weight but Gene Nygaard argued with him too and had his question properly answered (again). When his arguments didn’t get any traction on the kilogram article, he went to the Mass article and engaged in the same sort of edits there. The editors there had to deal with him (account here). After other editors weighed in with edits in an attempt to appease Gene Nygaard, he did this to the article. Another editor User:Enuja, who does her best to seek consensus and accommodate others, told him that "Disputed" and "Misleading" tags were not suitable (account here).

Please help. Greg L (my talk) 18:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I have had a similar experience with this editor at Talk:Enzyme_kinetics#Molarity_is_obsolete, he changed the article to replace a set of units with an incorrect set of units diff then edit-warred to retain the error diff. On the talk page he stubbornly maintained that his preference for units were used in biochemistry, and quoted obscure journals on inorganic and organic chemistry to try to support his argument. It was only when faced with overwhelming evidence of multiple citations from biochemistry journals that he accepted the actual usage. This is verging on disruptive editing. Tim Vickers 19:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

This seems to stem from a content dispute. Has an RFC/U been considered? --Bfigura 19:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

• Bfigura, please briefly explain the distinction between this forum and the one you are suggesting. The spark that lit the fuse on all of this was originally an argument over the definition of “weight” and the proper, encyclopedic treatment of the topic. The real issue, IMO, has become one of not accepting the consensus of others after hours of tirelessly explaining to him what the facts are, only to ultimately have him do stuff like this…

---

While the weight of objects (their gravitational force) is often given in kilograms, the kilogram is, in the strict scientific sense, a unit of mass.

---

…and this:

The unit of force: kilogram-force Template:TotallyDisputed-section

The relevance of particular information in (or previously in) this article or section is disputed. The information may have been removed or included by an editor as a result. Please see discussion on the talk page considering whether its inclusion is warranted. (October 2007)

When an object’s weight (its gravitational force) is expressed in kilograms…

…again, this is all after lengthy and tedious debate had transpired far beyond what any administrator would put up with (due to lack of acceptance of reality) and his arguments didn’t get traction with any other editors. In short, the issue is one of being disruptive. Tim Vickers’ problem with this Gene (see above) seems to be the same basic issue: ignoring clear facts he simply choses to ignore and incessantly doing the same edits anyway. I don’t know how many other editors weighed in on Tim Vickers’ article, but Gene totally ignored others editors too on Talk:Kilogram (not just me) and does what he wants anyway the moment anyone stops responding to his circuitous and ever-expanding arguments or it has become clear he won’t get his way.

Do you see this as being the central issue, and if so, are you saying the RFC/U would be a more suitable forum? Greg L (my talk) 20:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

At this point, I'm not entirely sure. If you want to form consensus on an issue (ie content), you should use a request for comments (or RFC). But if you want to establish consensus on an editor's behavior, then you want an RFC/U. Basically, you list the places where you think the editor has gone against policy, or been disruptive, and invite comments (which includes responses from the editor in question). The idea is to try and establish if a certain behavior is or isn't acceptable by the community.

As far as the above, those tags would seem needlessly disruptive, although I'm hesitant to say that with any certainty since I'm not entirely familiar with the dispute. Best, --Bfigura 20:35, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Will go to RFC/U. Thanks. Greg L (my talk) 20:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Drop me a line when you list it, and I'll be glad to give my outside view. Best, --Bfigura 20:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

• Bfigura, after looking at the RFC/U process, it looks like a daunting process that is too great of a hurdle. I think if we can just address the suitability of the “dispute” tags that should suffice for the problem at hand and will serve as a lesson-learned. User:Slashme has done lengthy and excellent edits (recent history) trying to reach a compromise. Some of Slashme’s edits were painful for me to see because Slashme’s treatment of the issue was to delete entire paragraphs I had written (like this one). But I accepted them and understood they were a reasonable compromise. I actually expected that all that would satisfy Gene too. Nope. User:Enuja has patiently explained why the article doesn’t merit them (here). I’ve given him ample warning of his disruptive edits (here). Now he’s got the “disputed” tags in the article again. Please help. Greg L (my talk) 21:06, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I deleted the STUCK tag at the top thinking it might somehow interfere with your ability to note that this is back to being active. Sorry for being presumptive. Greg L (my talk) 21:18, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Quite ok. I shouldn't have stuck them in yet :). I'll go poke my head into the article though. --Bfigura 21:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

• Bfigura, I don’t know what the proper remedy would be, even if you do find that the tags are unwarranted. But if you conclude that the article should be restored to some other state, this was the state I last had it in. And this is the state the last known other contributor had it at. That contributor User:Timb66, whose real name is Tim Bedding, is a professor of astrophysics at the School of Physics, University of Sydney. I can’t make a case that Professor Bedding is unbiased regarding Gene’s behavior, since he wrote “I agree with the comments by Greg L” (Talk:Mass#Disruptive edits) after I laid out a clear case regarding the scientific nature of “weight” and how Gene’s behavior was disruptive. Note however, that Professor Bedding made his edit to the Kilogram article after he posted that comment. Accordingly, he wasn’t a party to any disputes on Kilogram before reading that one was raging on Talk:Mass. Only then did he take an interest in the Kilogram article. I think it is fair to assume that Professor Bedding found nothing else he felt was worthy of correcting and find it noteworthy that his edit was only to change an occurrence of “and” to “or” (edit difference here).

  After studying the Misplaced Pages policy some more, I believe the proper charge in this forum would be that his incessant arguing on the discussion pages after finding that his arguments don’t get traction with other editors, and his resorting to the use of {{disputed}} and {{misleading}} tags, are all aspects of tendentious editing. Greg L (my talk) 21:55, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• Update regarding expert help: Bfigura, during the writing of the Kilogram article, I exchanged over forty e-mails with a physicist at the NIST who works on the kilogram in order to check facts, clarify issues and obtain additional information. That NIST physicist directed me to various papers published in Metrologia and Journal of Research of the National Bureau of Standards (some of which I used as citations in the article). As a favor, he has previously reviewed specific portions of the Kilogram article for accuracy. I asked him if he would review the entire last, non-Gene, historical version (this one by Professor Bedding), and to comment on its accuracy. I also asked him to compare it to the current version and take note to the sections that Gene tagged. On Friday he agreed to do so and said it will take a few days. Given that this dispute originated over technical issues, I hoped you would appreciate the outside help as it might make your job a little easier. Regards, Greg L (my talk) 18:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Gene_Nygaard has a long history of problems in this area. See his [http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Gene_Nygaard block log. He was informed of this Wikiquette alert on 25 Oct on his talk page. Yet he has not participated and continues in this behavior, even calling one user and "ass" and referring to at least one other's lack of intelligence; see User_talk:ArielGold#Improper_use_of_conversion_templates.2C_and_problems_with_what_they_do, , and . Based on this, I am blocking him for 72 hours. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

User: Haukaikela

I have currently had to revert edits on his/her talk page 2 times because he/she seems to be blanking the page in an attempt to hide warnings received. He/she blanked his her talk page again. VivioFateFan 12:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No policy that says a user has to keep or archive the contents on their talk page. The fact the user deleted it shows that it's been read. I further note you reverted the deletion and called it vandalism. That could be seen as a personal attack. Please read WP:VAND to learn what is really considered vandalism. Jeffpw 12:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC) Jeffpw 12:24, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that I really didn't know what I was supposed to do. VivioFateFan 12:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Chessy999

Although I have not been able to keep my temper under control at all times, this editor has been quite rude to myself and at least two other editors in a debate about the fate of Enemy (military), see here: , . I have advised them to assume good faith, apologised for any out-of-line comments I may have made and tried to assist them in improving the article. My comment on the editor's conduct () was met with a personal attack - .

As well as this conduct on talk pages, the editor has also:

• Removed a speedy deletion template -
• Removed an orphan template twice -
• Reverted a constructive edit, made by myself, though I was genuinly attempting to improve the article - —Preceding unsigned comment added by Davidovic (talk • contribs) 13:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Response

Hello, Davidovic is doing everything he can to get my recently created article Enemy (military)‎ deleted. He insisted on posting a frivolous "Speedy Delete" +tag, which an administrator agreed should be removed and that was done. Not satisfied, then Davidovic posted another frivolous "Orphan" +Tag on an article that was only in existence 10 minutes. The article is now interwiki linked to many articles and the "Orphan" +tag has been removed. Now the article is under AFD and once again Davidovic is participating to enhance the potential for article deletion by deleting information from the article. Not happy still, Davidovic has posted this over-zealous wikietiquette complaint. Based on the facts I believe that Davidovic has reflected that his/her statements are biased McPinions and the editor is a liability to Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Chessy999 13:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As user conduct goes around here, I do not consider the initial problems raised by Davidovic very much out of line. (except for the removal of the speedy tag by the author--that's never OK. ) What was a little absurd was a attempt to discuss on the talk page whether a speedy deletion was or was not appropriate. If there is any reasonable case made for keeping the article, it should go to AfD (which is where it is at the moment). Speedy is for unquestionable deletion, and another admin declined the speedy. Just discuss the article at AfD. The consensus will decide. DGG (talk) 13:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy to leave the discussion on the fate of the article to the AfD debate, the reason I created this alert was because I think that User:Chessy999's conduct is poor. I have linked Chessy999 several times to the Misplaced Pages page explaining good faith, and I've tried to explain what it means. The editor has disregarded my advice and the advice of Misplaced Pages itself and continued to be impolite. I don't have a personal vendetta against the editor or their article, but I think that their attitude is out of line. If noone else sees a problem with their behaviour, though, I'll withdraw from this argument. Davidovic 14:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel David is out of line and made inappropriate comments, I attempted to help the User to become more professional, but the editor only keeps on the same path, if the administrators are in agreement, I would suggest this editor be suspended from Wiki-Cop duties for a period of time. Chessy999 14:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to weigh in, in support of Davidovic and to account for my own part in this. I can see that much of this dispute is my fault, and I am cincearly sorry for that. I feel that very early on in this dispute, Chessy999 resorted to personal attacks which were, in my opinion, unwarrented. I do not feel that Chessy's actions towards me require a Wikiquette alert, however I can understand why Davidovic would do this, as Chessy999 has responded heatedly to both of us.

I feel that all parties involved may have become a little heated and argumentative. I do not think that Davidovic has done anything that makes them a "liability". In my opinion, Chessy has made some unfair personal attacks against this user. Lex Kitten 14:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages dispute resolution