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	Feminism was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result February 10, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed August 19, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

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GA fail

I am so impressed with the work that has been done on this article. I can only imagine how much research, writing and rewriting has been done. I think much of the article is quite good and that it is nearly GA, but there are still some changes and additions that I think would improve the article.

• The lead needs to be a standalone summary of the article per WP:LEAD. Each section of the article should, ideally, be mentioned.
• Many of the subsections are quite small. I realize that this is probably because the editors are trying to address so many different topics on a single page. However, some of them still need a bit of expansion and there is some space to work with here.

• The "history of feminism" introduction repeats much of what comes after it in the individual subsections on first-wave, second-wave, and third-wave feminism. I would either expand those subsections or delete the introduction. This is true of the introduction to the "Feminism of society" section as well.
• Might you consider including more examples of feminists and feminist texts? I would like to see at least one example in each subsection - it gives the reader something concrete to go on. Many of the descriptions are vague (as the concepts themselves are), so a text would help ground the description. I think that it is also a good idea to introduce readers to the major texts of feminism (I don't remember reading about The Second Sex, for example, but maybe I just missed it.)

• Several of the concepts are only described in relation to other concepts rather than given content themselves. For example, "Postcolonial feminism", "Third-world feminism" and "Post-feminism" look only like movements reacting to other feminisms at this point instead than movements with their own positions.
• "Women's interests and issues" are mentioned quite frequently - always try to specify what these are in the context you use the phrase.
• Might you consider deleting the "Patriarchy" section? It seems a bit tangential to the page and rightly has its own article.
• It would be nice to have more images. The page looks a bit blank right now - what about feminist artworks, for example, or book covers?
• I would delete some of the links under the "See also" section since they replicate what is in the "Feminism" navigation box.
• I would prune the external links.
• What do you think about moving the list of further reading to a "Sources on Feminism" page? So much could be added to that list and a separate page would allow you to do that more easily.

If you have any questions about this review, please drop a line on my talk page. Awadewit | talk 04:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Awadewit, their detail is very helpful. I hope that these issues can be addressed without too much hassle, thanks again.--Cailil 13:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the further reading section - my edit summary says moved to List of feminist literature but not all of it is notable enough for there. What doesn't get added will be userfied.--Cailil 19:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I think at this stage I've address your last 6 points - the easier ones ;) - the top for will take a little more time. Also I think even more pictures could be added through the page--Cailil 19:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay I've now got it narrowed down to 5 issues: 1) expanding the section on The second wave; 2) expanding feminism and society; 3) elucidating the term "Women's rights" in regard to the Feminist movement; 4) providing some more examples of feminism and feminist texts; and finally 5) the lead--Cailil 20:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Marxism and Feminism

I thinkj Harraway does not belong in this section - I would characterize her more as a post-structuralist or even postmodernist. And i have questions about Gayle Rubin, who was influenced by Levi Strauss at least as much as by Marx. One can cite Marx and Engels, even be influenced by them, without being a Marxist or socialist. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right about Rubin - that's a mistake I duplicated from the Socialist feminism or Marxist feminism pages. I agree Harraway is a postmodernist - I think it was Robert Young who called her a "neo-marxist" and a postmodernist. She kind of sits in-between the two discplines. What we could do is mention that she was influenced by marxism/post-marxism in the socialist feminism section but put her in the postfeminism & postmodern feminism section--Cailil 19:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Waves

I like covering a topic historically. nevertheless, I do not think 1st, 2nd, 3rd wave is an objective history of feminism. The article already suggests it is in part a construct of so-called second wave feminists. I think this is one story some feminists tell about feminism. I sadly do not know the social and intellectual historians who have addressed this but I am sure historians have questioned this periodization. Maybe Joan Scott. More specifically, here is my BIG problem: it is simply wrong to emphasize 1st wave feminism with the struggle for the right to vote. Margaret Sange was as important ands notable a feminist as Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B Anthony, and she is the matron (uh..um) saint of the pro-choice movement; she also wrote extensively about the problems of poverty. So economic equality and reproductive rights are as much first wave as second wave issues. Why are they more commonly identified with the second wave? My own opinion: so second wave feminists could claim that the first wave succeded in accomplishing their goal, and the second wave would likewise succede in accomplishing their goal. Arguably, they accomplished in the domain of reproductive rights wha Sanger couldn't - but US feminists still are far from achieving for women total sexual freedom and control over their own bodies. And the battle for economic equality is far, far from over. I do not know what the solution is: either a separate section on revisionist feminist history, or augment the section on each "wave" with concurent, sometimes forgotten, trends - graft onto the history a genealogy/genealogies. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Your right Slrubenstein. The fact is I haven't had the energy to really get to grips with a summary of the history of feminism. That section needs to be expanded or augmented, and I think your idea about the forgotten or contested aspects of each wave is wholly appropriate. The reason the history section isn't right yet is because I've been trying to kill two birds with every stone I throw here (which might not be the best option for this article). A majority of feminism sub-articles (ie Chicana feminism or Socialist feminism or second wave feminism) are unverified and in often in need of rewriting. There is some excellent work in History of feminism but there is also some terrible confusion there and I was trying to weed the reliably sourced from the original research in that article but I just ran out of steam with it--Cailil 01:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I am no blaming you. The fact is not that you haven't had the energy, the fact is Misplaced Pages has more editors who are experts on Pokeman than on Feminism. The fact is, we need more knowledgable editors so the burden doesn't fall on one or even two. You've done lots of good work! Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You are right, S, that "it is simply wrong to emphasize 1st wave feminism with the struggle for the right to vote." I added the individual rights concerns of the early first wave, put Mary Wollstonecraft and Voltairine in there, and noted that the suffrage thing was only a major concern for some, and that in the late 19th century and later. I think that addresses your concern. PhilLiberty 22:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Phil - your edits are without doubts improvements. But I was also making a larger point which I do not know enough to address ... but I suspect that historians have debaed not just what characterizes the three waves, but whether there really were three waves and whether this is the best way to structure the history of feminism (I would guess Joan Scott has addressed this but maybe not) ... I think somewhere in here should be an account not just of "the" history of feminism, but an account of debates among feminists and historians over how best to study and talk about the history of feminism. Personally, I suspect that the three waves has become a "myth" of feminism with currency because it has political (and perhaps existential) value, rather than because it is "good history." Maybe I am wrong, and even if i am right it is just my opinion. Have you or Calil or others read enough historiography to know? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language proposal at MOS talk

Dear colleagues—You may be interested in contributing to a lively discussion (which I hope will form consensus) here. Tony 15:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Cailil asked me to look over this article again.

The article is much improved from when I read it last. Here are my small suggestions for improvement:

• You already know about the lead problem, I gather. It lacks summariness.

• Feminist scholars have divided feminism's history into three 'waves' - Just feminist scholars?

• The first paragraph of "History of feminism" is wordy and a bit vague.

• In Britain the Suffragettes campaigned for the women's vote, which was eventually granted − to some women in 1918 and to all in 1928 − as much because of the part played by British women during the First World War, as of the efforts of the Suffragettes. - This sentence is a bit awkward.

• I believe you already know that the "Second-wave feminism" section is a bit vague. I would place "the personal is the political" slogan here.

• In the "third-wave feminism" section, could you give examples of the perceived failures of the second wave?

• I was unsure why such prominence was given to the Anita Hill case.

• The first paragraph of "Feminism's many forms" is repetitive.

• The largest departure from other branches of feminism, is the argument sex is itself constructed through language. - I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be "gender", not "sex".

• At times, I wondered who the major critics (that is critics of the various forms of feminism) were who you were citing; the article often says "some people".

• I still think "Postcolonial feminism" looks more reactive; perhaps a greater explanation of the concepts listed at the end of the last paragraph would alleviate this problem?

• "Post-feminism" is not as clearly as explained as the other feminisms.

• A copy editor who is unfamiliar with the article might be helpful. There are a few dropped words and wordy sentences here and there.

• The hyphenation and capitalization of "first-wave feminism", "second-wave feminism", and "third-wave feminism" needs to be consistent throughout the article.

• You might take a look at WP:MOS#Images for hints on arranging the images. I agree that a few more would liven up the page.

All in all, a very good page on a very difficult topic. Awadewit | talk 07:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again Awadewit, for what are very detailed and helpful comments. I've harmonized the hyphenation issue by using the hyphenated form (please note that some books use the un-hyphenated form in their own title). I think I've addressed the first 5 rewording issues in your list. Also I've reduced the weight odf the Anita Hill case - I may just remove it all together as it looks more and more irrelevant for this article. I tried to alter the Judith Butler sentence but this was reverted. I'll look at the issue of the number of "some people" in the coming days. The picture layout has been reorganized. I'ev also restructured the Postcolonial feminism section - the problem it has will be solved by adding a new head paragraph--Cailil 22:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

These are the outstanding issues from Awadewit's list:

1. "Second-wave feminism" section is a bit vague. I would place "the personal is the political" slogan here.
2. In the "third-wave feminism" section, give examples of the perceived failures of the second wave? & the prominence of the Anita Hill case?
3. I still think "Postcolonial feminism" looks more reactive; perhaps a greater explanation of the concepts listed at the end of the last paragraph would alleviate this problem?
4. "Post-feminism" is not as clearly as explained as the other feminisms.
5. Copy editing of article

--Cailil 18:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm striking this list as I (or anyone else) fixes these issues--Cailil 22:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

great free image - not sure if you have anywhere to put it though....

From the library of congress: 1909 photo titled "Policewomen - the woman "Cop" (a dream). Suffragette posed to illus. woman police concept." Here's the link. Calliopejen1 05:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously this could also be placed on some sort of related page, but I'm not familiar with the feminism-related articles and how they're organized... Calliopejen1 05:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A good article?

Of course, this is a "good" article, the article of masculinism instead has suffered a violent attack! Have I to think that this wikipedia are suffered a slanted process o feminilization? You must to have shame for you! --Giubizza 09:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

What is this "violent attack" you are talking about? Neitherday 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Other concepts

First off, I'd just like to say well done to however has been working on this article recently. I was editing about a year ago, and frankly, the article was so misguided I didn't have the energy to correct it. (For instance, it was over 60kb long, but had no mention of de Beauvoir). Anyway, now it is looking very good.

One criticism I have however: The 'other concepts' section spends a lot of time defining pro- and anti-feminism. I think we must remember 'WP is not a dictionary'. Articles should only defined words so that a reader knows what they mean 'within the context of the article'. Any English speaker knows what pro and anti mean as prefixes. I'm going to strip it down a bit. Ashmoo 21:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right Ashmoo, the antifeminism section was over the top - it was reflecting some of the problems at that article unfortunately. Your clean-up was needed. I did however de-wikify Sheila Cronin - who doesn't have a WP article yet (which was actually wikified by User:SadanYagci). Will be happy to re-do that if/when she has an article though--Cailil 21:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

New lead paragraph

As pointed out by Awadewit the lead paragraph needs work to come into line with WP:LEAD. Here is my first attempt at adding to the current lead to make it GA and FA standard. One or two sentences were dropped for being repetitive. The new section has been italicized

Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes. Some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are social constructs.

The history of feminism in the West has been divided into three waves. The first wave in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the second in the 1960s and 1970s and the third from the 1990s to the present. Feminist Theory developed from the feminist movement. It takes a number of forms in a variety of disciplines such as feminist geography, feminist history and feminist literary criticism. Feminism has changed aspects of Western society, modern feminist political activists commonly campaign for a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care; for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape; for workplace rights, including maternity leave and equal pay; and against other forms of discrimination. Beyond the West, Feminist activists and theorists campaign for women's rights in third world countries. Some third world feminists or Postcolonial feminists, such as Chandra Talpade Mohanty, are critical of western feminism for being ethnocentric. Black feminists, such as Angela Davis and Alice Walker, share this view.

Since the 1980s, standpoint feminists have argued that the feminist movement should address global issues (such as rape, incest, and prostitution) and culturally specific issues (such as female genital mutilation in some parts of Africa and the Middle East and "glass ceiling" practices that impede women's advancement in developed economies) in order to understand how gender inequality interacts with racism, homophobia, lesbophobia, colonialism, and classism in a "matrix of domination."

I'm personally unhappy with using a term like "beyond the west" - if anyone can suggest a better term please do--Cailil 12:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is pretty good. I hate the passive voice and wich I knew who introduced the idea of three waves of feminism - personally, I think it is bad historiography, but i acknowledge it is the main way Western scholars talk about the history of feminism; still, I would feel better if it could be pegged to an identifiable source. About the "beyond the West," I share your feelings and I see no way around it that is not awkward. For what it is worth, here is how I would put it:

Throughout most of its history, most leaders of feminist social and political movements, and feminist theorists, have been middle-class white women, predominantly in the US, France, and US. At least since Sojourner Truth's 1851 speech to US Feminists, however, women of color have proposed alternative feminisms. This trend accelerated in the 1960s with the Civil Rights movement in the United States and the collapse of European colonialism in Africa and Southeast Asia. Since that time, women in former European colonies and other countries forming the Non-Aligned Movement have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well.

Wordier, but as concise as I can make it and I think more precise and informative and (I hope!!!) accurate. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I like your version Slrubenstein - I think we should use it. I'm not the biggest fan of "the waves" structuring of feminism either but that's the way most books look at it. An alternative which User:Dimitrisdad put forward on Talk:Equity feminism is that we list the history chronologically and then explain the historiographies (ie the waves and the Hoff Sommers idea Gender/Equity feminism) afterwards. Personally I think we could think about that way of writing the history for the history section and use this.--Cailil 13:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! And to clarify - i do not object to using the "waves" as long as we can identify who coined or popularized the terms, i.e. "According to X, ... " I would never use Sommers classification alone, but if it is presented as one of a few major ways of classifying feminism i.d. if it is presented alongside one or two other models, I have no objections. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I share your view about Sommers's classifications. The weight of her position is not equal to the "waves" concept. BTW I'll look into who coined the "waves" terminology now - it was Marsha Lear who coined the term "second wave" and out of that came the classification of the previous generation as 1st wavers. The third wave was Rebecca Walker's term in her Ms article. So really the waves theory is popular by osmosis--Cailil 14:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In the intro, change it to, "According to some, the history of feminism consists of three waves" and provide as a "ref" endnote the citations for Lear and Walker. In the body of the article, mention them by name and quote their original definitions for each wave - that's how I would handle it. (good job with research, by the way!) Slrubenstein | Talk 14:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay it's gone in. Its not perfect (yet) but its a start. I changed your line "women in former European colonies and other countries forming the Non-Aligned Movement have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well." to "Since that time, women in former European colonies and the developing world have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well." - I'm not delighted about using "developing world but I'm cagey about linking (even unintentionally & indirectly) the Non-aligned movement and feminism - I see the point but if we have people requiring us to source "Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" it would come under heavy fire.--Cailil 19:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Before I forget, I'd also like to come up with a very short sentence summarizing the "feminisms" concept--Cailil 19:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, offhand I would say "from Non-Aligned countries" is more in keeping with the spirit of NPOV because it is how those countries identified themselves, whereas "undeveloped" and "third world" takes the view ("standpoint!") of the West. However, the real Q. is how they define themselves. Mohanty uses 3rd world; so does Trinh. SO, let;s change it to Third World, okay? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

That's perfect :) Thanks for working on this Slrubenstein--Cailil 20:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the fact that many feminists are sexist against men

is that in this article. most feminists i know degrade men and bitch about how ALL men are terrible. this needs to be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.169.159 (talk) 05:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

we have to remain neutral. there will probably be an article on "the response of feminism" or the "criticism of feminism" or something like that one day you can help make it. there will be nothing about that in this article because the liberals will say it not neutral no matter how true it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 00:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

abortion is not a right

ok so the lead paragraph says

Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion

the way it is worded it says abortion is a right. can you guys please change it so it say "feminists fight for the legalization of abortion" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you change it? Find a reliable source: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", states Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources. Or if not, mark the passage that offends you with the {{fact}} template, so the author is then obliged to reference it or change it. If you don't like the given reference, see WP:Templates. Tom 22:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

it depends what you call a right. just because the bill of rights say you have the right of hate speech doesnt mean it true. you can never really prove you have any rights. i dont think abortion is a natural right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Natural_right

just change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 00:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

User:69.106.230.196 don’t get confused. This article is not asserting that abortion is or is not a right. The line reads “ Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care); for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape” This is easily sourced since it is saying that some feminists campaign for the right to abortion as well as other issues (see Daring to Be Bad: Radical Feminism in America, 1967-1975 by Alice Echols or At the Heart of Freedom: Feminism, Sex, and Equality By Drucilla Cornell p. x, or a number of other books). Also I will remind you 69.106.230.196 that wikipedia is not a soapbox – this is not the place to attempt to start a debate on abortion.--Cailil 14:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Cailil! That is a much needed clarification on 'rights' as well as fact checking. So often inside and outside of matters acedemic, we do not check to see what was actually written before we comment.

I would also add (in answer to the odd and random comment) that all speech, even unfortunate "hate speech", is a right gauranteeded in the US. ---- NJMEssmer1976, 14 OCT 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by NJMessmer1976 (talk • contribs) 16:45, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

ah-hem~ i was who brought it up but anyways i dont think you can scientifically prove that abortion is a right. the fact of the matter is the the statement is not neutral about abortion. it should be changed to make it more neutral. you can get rid of it, it is not even important overall in the article. a better statement is

"Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the legalization and sustainment of abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care)...."69.106.250.135 01:51, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

69.106.250.135 this is getting tendentious. Unless there is a major significant source that contradicts the existing references (which say that "Feminism campaigns for the right to abortion") your argument is going nowhere. Misplaced Pages requires reliable sources and consensus for edits. Also you have already been warned that wikipedia is not a soapbox - if this behaviour continues you may be blocked--Cailil 18:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia. Why do people feel the need to air their opinions in this way? What is your point 69.106.250.135? Wouldn't starting a blog be more appropriate? Tom 18:52, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I do think it would be more helpful if this argument were held on this page rather than on mine and Cailil's Talk pages. I think I have understood 69.106.250.135's problem. Could I please ask him or her to consider the difference between the following phrases:

• feminists have been fighting to obtain the right of abortion.
• feminists have been fighting to obtain the political right of access to abortion.

If you look at your Wiki reference quoted above, the mention is made therein, of the difference between natural right and political right. Are you sure your judgement is not being clouded by "strongly held beliefs"? Don't forget, that if you are taking issue with the notion of political right, this constitutes WP:POV. If you look around Misplaced Pages, I hope you will notice that in spite of the potential for political controversy, the Feminism article is one of the most neutral, rational and encyclopedic around. (I didn't write any of it, so this is not self interest on my part.) Tom 08:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is just another case of a newbie who doesn't understand our NPOV and V polciies. Anonymous user 69, please read over WP:NPOV and WP:V carefullly - if there is something you do not understand, you can ask for clarification ont he policy talk pae. Then feel free to come back here and I think what Cahil and Tom and others have said will make more sense to you. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

anarcha-feminism

An editor just changed the cited reference about anarcha-feminism to eliminate the struggle against capitalism in deference to self-identified anarcho-capitalists. Without getting into the tedious argument that anarcho-capitalists are or are not "anarchists", let me simply note that the cited reference is about the strand of anarchism that is anti-capitalist as well as anti-state, and that is the description of anarcha-feminist. If this or other editors can find citable references to an anarcha-feminist split that parallales the anarchist/anarcho-capitalist split, then by all means, include them and discussion of the split within anarcha-feminism. So far as I know, however, anarcha-feminism as a strand is anti-capitalist along with anti-capitalist anarchism. Another appropriate approach would be to note the anarchist/anarcho-capitalist split in the text, but in my view that is a distraction from an article that is primarily about feminism. The link to the anarchism article explains fairly clearly the various arguments about capitalism. --lquilter 16:32, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely! Slrubenstein | Talk 18:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Lquilter wrote, "So far as I know, however, anarcha-feminism as a strand is anti-capitalist along with anti-capitalist anarchism." Probably the most famous anarcha-feminist today, and most prolific writer, is Wendy McElroy. She is an anarcho-capitalist (though she prefers to self-label "individualist anarchist.") So I strongly object to characterizing anarcha-feminism as anti-capitalist only. PhilLiberty 03:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Do individualist feminists (in the McElroy sense) consider themselves anarcha-feminists? A quick google didn't turn up anything connecting anarcha-feminism and individualist feminists. That there are some feminists who are also anarchists who are not anti-capitalist doesn't entail that anarcha-feminism isn't anti-capitalist. VoluntarySlave 04:10, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I'm the editor that did that. The way that line read was the "anarchist struggle against...capitalism" as if it were implying all types of anarchism. I would have no qualms if it were a bit more specific and replaced the more general "Anarchist" term with "Anarcha-feminist". As for what VoluntarySlave is bringing up, I admit I'm not an expert on the matter, so I won't enter that debate. I just wanted to make sure that the idea conveyed in the sentence didn't gloss over the entire "Are Anarcho-capitalists anarchists?" debate. Fephisto —Preceding comment was added at 15:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"Glossing it over" is precisely what we should be doing, since this is not an article about anarchism, or even anarchafeminism -- anarchafeminism is merely a small section of radical feminism which is a small section of the overall feminism article. Again, the links to anarchism and anarchafeminism offer an opportunity for a reader to understand the nuances and flavors and offshoots etc. However ....

For now, I left the Wendy McElroy bit in but tried to reword. I think we should see how it sits and if, over time, it starts to feel like too much detail about anarchism in the feminism article, or historically too recentist (WP:RECENT). In the meantime, a few points and explanations -

• Since McElroy doesn't identify as an "anarchafeminist" I'm not sure how she can be "the most famous anarchafeminist". The phrase anarcha-feminist doesn't even appear in her wikipedia article. Nevertheless, I think it's reasonable to identify her as the foremost feminist-identified proponent of individualist anarchism and to include her in this article in that role. (I would resist defining her as "the most famous anarcha-feminist"; for one, how would we ever determine "most famous"? How could one reasonably compare "fame" between any two people, say, Starhawk and Wendy McElroy? Anyway, "fame" is a highly subjective term, depending a lot on particular groups of people.)
• The previous wording talked about McElroy as the most prominent modern advocate. To my knowledge, this is a relatively new trend and definition -- to clearly articulate feminism and individualism, so I tried to reword to avoid the undocumented suggestion that there are lots of historical anarcho-capitalist-feminists. If that's incorrect, let's have a citation for the historical work. Similarly, the previous wording talked about it as if there were two coequal "branches". That's not accurate; those who have self-defined as "anarcha-feminists" have been largely from the (anti-capitalist) anarchist tradition. (Of course, anarchists of all stripes have advocated for sex equality, but we're talking about committed feminists.)

• Rearranged the pieces together so it flows -- sentences about anti-capitalist @feminism together, and sentences about ifeminism together.
• Rewrote the last sentence about ifeminism as a US-oriented philosophy. Original sentence made it sound as if US was historically "ifeminist" and Europe was historically socialist feminist, which is not accurate; "anarcha-feminism" both in the US and Europe historically has identified with (anti-capitalist) anarchism. So I rewrote to keep the information about ifeminism's growth out of US-based material, while removing the suggestion that there has been a historical juxtaposition b/w US & Europe strains of anarchafeminism. --lquilter 20:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

More correct definition of feminism.

Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes. Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Some feminists, like Judith Butler, have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are social constructs.

Excuse me for making an observation.

If the above quote is true, then why did feminism just focus on 'women'. The equality of women to men, would be more correct, feminism was not concerned about giving equitable treatment to both men and women, merely to give women more rights,(a good noble thing), but that is not what the opening paragraph says.

Secondly, Judith Butler's quote, ignores the simple observation that male and female constructs are focused on undeniable physical differences. Her work appears to be based on 'queer' or 'bisexual' theory, and not representative of mainstream feminism —Preceding unsigned comment added by Caesarjbsquitti (talk • contribs) 03:08, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As half-truths go, feminism was not concerned about injustice to both men and women, merely women.

There are a great many definitions, and the one that was in the listing, spoke of general inequality between the sexes; that was not the case of feminism which was concerned only about the inequality of women compared to men in general.

Feminism was concerned only about women, at the exclusion of men. It spoke of "violence against women", not of people, nor of 'violence against women and men'; So it is important to correctly reflect this detail.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 03:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Feminism arose because men were so completely in control of society that in order to achieve equality, women would have to be given as many rights as we men had. That is not in contradiction of the definition in the lede. --Orange Mike 16:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Feminism arose for many reasons, but it was not merely men in control, remember we have a Queen of England, the wealthiest women in the world, then there is Mrs. Clinton. The definition you included is too general.

Feminism was not about all injustice merely those of women.

Case in point. A credit union manager proclaimed that they, the credit union was in complete compliance with the regulations of employement equity, a program that outlines the minimum number of women to have employed. The manager, a woman, laughed, because she was in compliance, AND ALL THE EMPLOYEES WERE WOMEN.

Feminism was seldom concerned about gender inequities against men, and there are and is some today. Discrimination along the basis of sex is only part of the problem. A classic example of an undetected half-truth.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:39, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have made a suggestion, and have backed it up. Feminism was a political philosophy about the injustices of women, not against men.

Men were not responsible for the injustices of women, tell that to a black man.

Back to the point at hand, the definition from Oxfords details discrimination against women, not general sexual inequality. You are stretching the truth.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like you haven't spent much time among feminists, Caesar. The female mainstream feminists I know cheerfully acknowledge the fact that sexism oppresses us, too; just in different ways than it does women. --Orange Mike 20:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Feminism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Feminism at the Reference desk.

(what is with this notaforum ? Is this a ploy to railroad in one's own interpretation without any discussion ?)

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is a dictionary definition:

Feminism is a doctrine advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to men.

You will note the focus on women. It appears that some have 'bought into' the philosophy as if there is only one color of truth.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 20:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Just chiming in: I think it's not appropriate to copy a dictionary definition in to the lede of a wikipedia article. First, there's no need to go courting the wikipedia copyright police. Second, a dictionary definition is inappropriate as the lede for a wikipedia article in terms of style, as well. Dictionary definitions are necessarily intended to be succinct without description or nuance or additional examples; it therefore must sum up in a sentence what, in an encyclopedia, might be laid out in a paragraph. The proposed language is an example: "Feminism is a doctrine advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to men" (dictionary) versus "Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" (wikipedia). More specific comparisons of the two:

• The first sentence encapsulates the discussion of the historical gender biases that are discussed at greater length in the wikipedia article. It's not a terrible idea, if we need to revise the lede sentence, but I don't think it's necessary to do it, either.
• Change from "ideology" to "doctrine" I think is incorrect. (Although neither are great.) Ideology refers generally to a belief system, which is more accurate in terms of "feminism"; "doctrine" suggests documents or an authorizing body, which is not accurate.
• "equality of the sexes" versus "rights for women equal to men" - Aside from the awkward phrasing of the latter, the former is a more elegant and concise way of saying the same. It also avoids the inevitable arguing over "social, political, and economic" (should we also include cultural? socio-cultural? linguistic? reproductive? familial? religious? etc.)

--lquilter 21:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

"Feminism is an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" suggests women and men have equal rights; that was not feminism. It was more that women have equal rights to men; there is a small difference. One is part of the other.

--Caesar J. B. Squitti  : Son of Maryann Rosso and Arthur Natale Squitti 22:02, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

1. 'Feminism', Webster Dictionary Definition
2. Cite error: The named reference Suffragettes to Grrls was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
3. Cite error: The named reference Chodorow1989 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. Cite error: The named reference gilligan1977 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
5. Feminist Theory and the Body: A Reader ed. by Janet Price and Margrit Shildrick (Edinburgh University Press, 1999) ISBN 9780748610891
6. Cite error: The named reference Butler2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
7. Cite error: The named reference Messer-Davidow was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
8. Cite error: The named reference Narayan was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
9. Cite error: The named reference Mohanty was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
10. Cite error: The named reference walker was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
11. Hill Collins, P. (2000): Black Feminist Thought: Knowledge, consciousness, and the politics of empowerment (New York: Routledge)
12. Harding, Sandra, The Feminist Standpoint Theory Reader: Intellectual and Political Controversies (Routledge, 2003), ISBN 9780415945011
13. Humm, Maggie. 1995. The Dictionary of Feminist Theory. Columbus: Ohio State University Press, p. 251
14. 'Feminism', Webster College Dictionary Definition. Random House Inc. 1991, p.490

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