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Revision as of 19:48, 4 November 2007 editUltraexactzz (talk | contribs)26,830 edits →German Reform movement (Judaism): sorting as society (Religion)← Previous edit Revision as of 19:51, 4 November 2007 edit undoHG1 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users6,706 edits →German Reform movement (Judaism): proper placement of evidence that creators was warned about POV forksNext edit →
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*'''Delete''' per ]. Insufficient secondary sources cited. ] (]) 18:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC) *'''Delete''' per ]. Insufficient secondary sources cited. ] (]) 18:54, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
::Like the tag says, it's Under Construction. Note that so far this is the content extracted from the existing article, not new material. ] 18:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC) ::Like the tag says, it's Under Construction. Note that so far this is the content extracted from the existing article, not new material. ] 18:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Evidence.''' To show that the creator was not doing a neutral content spin-off, besides checking their involvement in the POV dispute discussions, consider that the first line of the article, moved from "Reform Judaism", now reads: "The roots of the '''progressive movement''' lie in the increasing secularization of Europe...." (emphasis added). The creator is intending to settle the Progressive vs Reform debate by creating this article. Thank you. As evidence of the creator's involvement in the dispute discussion, see where Jheald started this section during the dispute: ] Thank you. ] | ] 19:19, 4 November 2007 (UTC) *'''Evidence.''' To show that the creator was not doing a neutral content spin-off, besides checking their involvement in the POV dispute discussions, consider that the first line of the article, moved from "Reform Judaism", now reads: "The roots of the '''progressive movement''' lie in the increasing secularization of Europe...." (emphasis added). The creator is intending to settle the Progressive vs Reform debate by creating this article. Thank you. As evidence of the creator's involvement in the dispute discussion, see where Jheald started this section during the dispute: ]. In addition, the creator was aware of the caution I gave in a warning entitled: ]. Thanks. ] | ] 19:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
::Like the tag says, the article's Under Construction. That sentence was merely copy/pasted as more or less appropriate intro text from existing article ]. It's just placeholder stuff. If you want to improve it, go right ahead. But you don't call an AFD because you want to change one word. ] 19:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC) ::Like the tag says, the article's Under Construction. That sentence was merely copy/pasted as more or less appropriate intro text from existing article ]. It's just placeholder stuff. If you want to improve it, go right ahead. But you don't call an AFD because you want to change one word. ] 19:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
*'''Strong Keep''': *'''Strong Keep''':

Revision as of 19:51, 4 November 2007

German Reform movement (Judaism)

German Reform movement (Judaism) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This article is the beginning of a POV fork from Reform Judaism, from which all current content was copied. Furthermore, the copy was made without carrying over the edit histories. The editor has been involved in discussing whether WP should use "Progressive" or "Reform" Judaism terminology. While well-intentioned, this page is disruptive and the involved parties should proceed with discussion and ordinary channels (e.g., merge, move or AfD) to advance their side of the dispute. HG | Talk 18:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Note -- This article may qualify as a Speedy Deletion. Since I am involved in the dispute, I did not feel qualified to nominate this for Speedy Deletion (e.g., Forking and copyvio). HG | Talk 18:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
To expand on that: the Reform Judaism article is considerably over-length, so summary style is recommended. It also represents basically a botch together of material in 3 very different areas: the C19 German movement; U.S. Reform Judaism today; and U.K. Reform Judaism, which has different historical roots, and a significantly different outlook. So summary style makes a lot of sense. It also lets the Reform Judaism article move much more quickly to where things are at today, as WP articles on religious movements should do, rather than many many screens of history first. Jheald 19:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Like the tag says, it's Under Construction. Note that so far this is the content extracted from the existing article, not new material. Jheald 18:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Evidence. To show that the creator was not doing a neutral content spin-off, besides checking their involvement in the POV dispute discussions, consider that the first line of the article, moved from "Reform Judaism", now reads: "The roots of the progressive movement lie in the increasing secularization of Europe...." (emphasis added). The creator is intending to settle the Progressive vs Reform debate by creating this article. Thank you. As evidence of the creator's involvement in the dispute discussion, see where Jheald started this section during the dispute: Should Reform or Progressive be the main umbrella article. In addition, the creator was aware of the caution I gave in a warning entitled: Avoiding a POV fork. Thanks. HG | Talk 19:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Like the tag says, the article's Under Construction. That sentence was merely copy/pasted as more or less appropriate intro text from existing article Progressive Judaism. It's just placeholder stuff. If you want to improve it, go right ahead. But you don't call an AFD because you want to change one word. Jheald 19:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep:
    1. The Pre-1883 German Reform movement has influenced multiple streams of Judaism. All these articles need to point to the same history without duplication - it is only logical to place this material in a separate article to which all articles may link
    2. Reform Judaism is currently longer than the length recommended by WP:LENGTH
    3. German reform history is long (and needs to get much longer). Placing such a large history section at the front of this article obscures the fact that US Reform and UK Reform and Israeli Progressive are living movements with a modern history and philosophy.
    4. Placing German reform history in Reform Judaism is obscuring the fact that the US Reform history is severely lacking and making it hard to add material to the US history of Reform.
    5. Placing the pre-1883 German Reform movement into a Reform Judaism article is cramping it. There is a *lot* of missing material about disputes, convocations, steps forward and back. Hirsch is just one of many dissenting voices that need to be included in the story.
    Egfrank 19:42, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
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