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Give us your fucking money

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

User:Yidisheryid

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

Reblocked User:Whig

Whig (talk · contribs)

To summarise: Community banned homeopathic POV-pusher who was unblocked as part of an attempted mediation, then disappeared for a month. Just returned, and began the same idiocy all over again. Re-banned. Adam Cuerden 20:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with reban, the user obviously has no intentions of contributing constructively here. Qst 20:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Good block. Multiple RFCs have failed to solve the problem. This one's here only to advance his POV, at which point he and the encyclopaedia have to part company. Moreschi 21:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This user should have been banned months ago. Wikidudeman 17:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

My personal feeling is that this is a good block - but then I thought this particular tendentious user had exhausted all of his chances last time around. I don't see a lot of value being added to the encyclopedia here. That said, Whig was unblocked on probation under the mentorship of User:Mercury last time around, so I'd be interested to hear Mercury's thoughts on the matter. MastCell 18:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You should specify what you mean by 'began the same idiocy all over again.' what idiocy? please give the diffs. thank you Peter morrell 17:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I want to see what behavior Adam Cuerden was referring to in the form of diffs. Whig has made the same request. I think to be fair, this request should be satisfied. -- Levine2112 00:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no real stake in this one way or the other, but the last debate on ANI can be seen here. --Bfigura 00:14, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with the reblock. As far as I can see from the logs, he has behaved appropriately for any other editor on Misplaced Pages since his unblocking. It appears you are reblocking him because he did not consult with Mercury when he re-appeared on Homeopathy. It also appears - from your justification given above - that the main force you cite for reblocking him is your antipathy to the topic of homeopathy. From the previous RfC it appears your behaviour, Adam, is being repeated, and needs to be addressed. Show us please why his edits since the unblock have been disruptive, conflict with Wiki policy, or (apart from not having sought an opinion before editing on the article of Homeopathy) contravened any agreements. From my reading of his edits, there are none. Justify please. docboat (talk) 00:27, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Whig is not "any other editor on Misplaced Pages"; s/he's a tendentious editor, as reinforced at his last RfC, who avoided an indefinite block and ban on the basis of agreeing to Mercury's mentorship. I think we should wait to hear from Mercury before going any further here. MastCell 03:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

For the moment, I am going to refrain from commenting on the block. I am fairly confident Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) will address concerns regarding his reapplication of the block. Regards, Mercury 04:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Whig was unblocked because I and Mercury agreed that he might have some potential if he took a break and was able to get used to Misplaced Pages community behaviour standards, and we hoped he would learn what NPOV was as part of that. He disappeared completely for weeks, then suddenly came back, leapt into the topics that had caused so much trouble full-guns-blazing - indeed, he didn't edit anything else except to add homeopathy into Potassium dichromate - and his behaviour and language showed no signs of change. Whig is a true believer. We had hoped that he could learn to play nicely with others. Instead, we got more inane WP:OR homeopathy apologetics, and bold (and uncited) claims that, in fact, physicists and doctors support homeopathy, as well as [http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=171726760 this post where he takes David's sensible suggestion and turns it into a repeat of the "no criticism whatsoever in the lead" POV-pushing that he'd been canvassing for before the block. In short, a return to the behaviour from the RFC. The objectors to this ban, User:Peter morrell (RFC where he was nearly banned, but agreed to moderate his behaviour (which he stopped doing a few months ago)) and User:BrianWalker are cut from the same cloth, and, frankly, if they hadn't cleverly decided to constantly attack me, meaning I couldn't ban them without a COI, I'd have blocked them already.

But then, I'm in a brutally honest mood tonight. And, frankly, I'm sick of the whole subject. I don't LIKE editing Homeopathy. I wish thew whole thing would go away. But I'm an admin, and that means I have to monitor articles that are prone to trouble. And so, when asked to help out there by friends, I did. And what hell it's given me. More stress than any other bloody article, and that's with me trying to avoid it as much as possible, just checking for vandalism and POV-pushing. Adam Cuerden 05:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

• Brutally honest, Adam? Right then. You have made a scurrilous attack on me now "cut from the same cloth" - how dare you, and you an admin? If this is the real, brutally honest you, and you have seen my edit history and read my own background to be able to make that ill-founded judgement, then the WHOLE of your judgements must be called into question. This will go further, I suspect. This is simply not good enough. Fail. You must do better. Quite apart from what you now decide with Whig, I want a competent admin to take a close look at your work. docboat (talk) 02:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do we spend so much time on such users? We give these folks umpteen last chances, soak up the time of good editors in futile attempts at mentoring them, burn out admins dealing with their incessant wikilawyering protests, and on and on, in the hope that maybe, someday, perhaps, possibly, eventually, with infinitely patient nurturing and lavish attention they'll learn to push their version of The Truth in a slightly less tendentious way. Are we really so desperate for contributors? Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree. No, we aren't desperate for contributors, and much less for disruptive fringe editors who just "don't get it" and never will. Often it isn't even a matter of bad faith or ill will, it is simply that they lack the ability. They are immune to cognitive dissonance. We have the bar for acceptable behavior and attitudes set far too low here and this means we have fringe editors who get blocked, while their numerous sympathizers (whose - often fake - civility somehow protects them?) show up and reveal that they don't get it either, but they don't get blocked. In an ArbCom situation sympathizers can get blocked simply for showing too many of the same attitudes as blocked editors, IOW showing too much sympathy for them. They share their guilt because they think the same way and are also guilty of aiding and abetting them by supporting them in normal editing, in edit wars, in RfCs, and in the ArbCom proceedings themselves.

The bar needs to be raised and such sympathizers who don't get it and show signs of never getting it should also be shown the door, or at least be placed on probation. That is one advantage (possibly one of the only ones...) of RfCs. It draws all of the fringe sympathizers out of the woodwork so they show their true colors and they can be identified and the community alerted to which disruptive editors who don't understand NPOV are in need of watching. Unfortunately - because of the low bar - this occupies far too much good time that could be otherwise used on constructive editing. This situation needs to change. No more multiple and longsuffering series of warnings. Adam has several times revealed courage and resolute determination to protect Misplaced Pages from such time wasters and he should be commended, not interrogated by sympathizers from the flock of "birds of a feather who stick together." They should be warned together and blocked together. It shouldn't be necessary to waste time explaining common sense to those who don't understand it. I too am in a brutally honest mood this morning, but I'm sure only those who feel guilty will complain. -- Fyslee / talk 07:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Brutally honest eh? this does not seem to be an adequate response. The honesty of it must be judged by others, Adam. A number of specific points need to be addressed.

• you have edited homeopathy more than any other single editor in the last 9 months and control it (along with a few others) on a daily basis; you rvt other folks edits and seem hostile and owning towards the article and any other editors; you have created more edit wars and disputes on that article than any other editor; you are intolerant and disputatious and refuse to back down; this is why you block people; you abuse your admin powers; now you are threatening to block many more people including myself and docboat; I see you have a very 'impressive' history for deleting articles and blocking people; do you envisage a good WP as a police state? you are a self confessed anti homeopath; thus how can you say you dislike editing this article? the data simply does not stack in your favour.

• Why do you claim that Whig 'repeated his idiocy?' it seems he merely made some useful and factual edits to potassium dichromate; he never went near the homeopathy article as far as I can tell. His comments about potassium dichromate were fair, moderate, uncontentious, factual and neutral. How was he POV pushing? how was his language and behaviour block-worthy? I just don't see it in the diffs. Please explain your reasoning.

• you have still not supplied the diffs as requested by several folks here.

• attacking others who you claim are attacking you is a distraction, a side issue, and just muddies the waters; let's focus on the current issue and what you have said and what you have declined to say about this particular block.

• please provide the diffs which illustrate your comment that Whig was 'repeating his old idiocy' and show how his language and behaviour was block-worthy. You also claim he was POV pushing; please provide specific diffs that illustrate this.

• please provide the date you became an admin and also the dated diffs that show your claim that 'some friends asked you to check' the homeopathy article with dates. otherwise we have no idea of the factual accuracy of what you state. You must be able to show that you became an admin BEFORE you started editing the homeopathy article. I find that claim somewhat suspect. As I recall, you started editing homeopathy about February 2007. On what date did you become an admin? thank you Peter morrell 07:51, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Peter, seeing as I asked you just yesterday to tone down the rhetoric after you made a couple of attacks on Adam, you should be aware that you're skating awfully close to the edge of a block. Why on earth would Adam not be allowed to monitor an article for POV-pushing before he got his sysop bit? (Which, for the curious, he got on 2 March 2007). Why would he need to dig through nine-month-old page histories to find an invitation to edit?

Asking (civilly) for more information about a block is a reasonable practice, and an important part of making sure Misplaced Pages is working smoothly. Using this forum to push what has apparently become a personal vendetta against Adam is not. Please find something – anything – productive to do on Misplaced Pages that doesn't involve commenting on Adam. (I have warned Peter on his talk page that his current approach is unhelpful and may draw a block.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:42, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

When all the points raised have been answered, we shall all be happy. Assuming that is the answers are coherent and verifiable. thank you. Peter morrell

I have just reviewed the edits to the Potassium dichromate article and its talk page, and I do not see that Whig's edits were inappropriate. I note a rather aggressive edit summary from AC to one of the edits. I think my few previous edits on this subject show no bias towards homeopathy, which, to be honest about it, I personally consider a dangerous absurdity. DGG (talk) 00:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It's more his edits on Talk:Homeopathy and WP:FTN. Though the positioning of the section he added to Potassium dichromate the first time shows very little ability to judge its importance - there's a chemical with numerous applications in industry and chemistry, and he thinks that homeopathy is more important than major uses that, if I recall correctly, appear in the A-level chemistry exams in Britain (if briefly). Adam Cuerden 03:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

As for the Fringe notice board, I see only one November edit of his , a single sentence non disruptive comment. As for the Talk Homeopathy, I also see no disruptive edits--just the attempt to refine a single paragraph. DGG (talk) 17:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

More to the point, Adam, you are a major contributor to the discussion on Homeopathy (and , as I said , I very much agree with what you say there). So why did you block someone for contributions to that subject? I would never use admin power on any one who had significantly contributed to an article on which I had also worked, especially if I were on opposite sides of the argument. (I am in no way defending Whig's earlier edits or opposing the earlier blocks.) There are 1300 other admins, and at least 1250 of them have never edited this subject. Why didn't you ask someone else to do the block for you? DGG (talk) 17:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Adam wasn't the person to make this bock, but seeing that Whig was trying, once again, to push his ideas about quantum mechanics providing an explanation for how homeopathy might work eg diff and diff, the block itself seems justifiable - unless of course Whig had cleared these edits with Mercury beforehand. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:04, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

A good block, and I agree with Raymond Arritt, users who are here to make a fringe into the mainstream via wikipedia need to be shown the door when their agenda refusees to meet our policies. As for Peter Morell's post above, that's a perfect textbook example of wikilawyering. deamnding dates and times of adminship conferrence? What could that have to do with anything else? It's a distraction. The user's had numerous Procedural reviews, and continues his behavior. Let him find a new outlet. ThuranX (talk) 00:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

(I have been away for a week and not following the discussion.) On reviewing it, I think two points I raised in the previous ANI discussion about Whig are still relevant. 1) I do not think Adam Cuerden qualifies as a neutral administrator in this particular case. This concern, which I made in all seriousness, was never addressed in the previous ANI discussion. 2) If an editor persists in a line of argument that other editors consider absurd, there is the option of ignoring them. In homeopathy, this option might usefully be used more than it is. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Deeceevoice

This very long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size within reason. — Sebastian

User:hopiakuta

Resolved – Nothing to see here. -Jéské 21:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Not resolved, see my comment below. Davnel03 21:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Something is wrong with this user's contribution. Redirects, strange things. Something alien. I don't understand at all. For example Topple. I just can't figure out. sharara 21:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

It's a soft redirect to Wikt:topple. So? -Jéské 21:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I can see why sahara is concerned, just look at hopiakuta's user and talk page, some proper weird shit going on, theres tons of bizarre, senseless links and weird formatting etc--Jac16888 (talk) 21:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I've striked the resolved tag as it clearly isn't resolved. Something is weird here. Davnel03 21:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I was planning to remove the tag; I simply looked at the link she provided to Topple. EDIT) The only thing I'm getting from the pages is "fraudulent" websites, bad wiki-markup, and the sense of doo-doo-doo-doo doo-doo-doo-doo. However, I think there was a thread in which Hopiakuta was described as using a screen reader.-Jéské 21:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I can confirm that this user is blind. There's nothing to see here (sorry). east.718 at 21:33, November 17, 2007

That makes sense, I guess. I chatted with him across a few pages and it was perplexing, like English was a third language perhaps. That makes sense, now. I don't know if it's appropriate, though, but could someone who knows him speak with him just about his signature and formatting, if it's possible? I have no idea what the limitations are of using a site like this with a reader as he does, but the grammatical disconnect makes it difficult to follow what he's after, to work with him. If not, no big deal and forget I asked (just tossing it out, if anything can be done to help him and us). • Lawrence Cohen 21:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

There is a Wikiproject on accessibility somewhere; editor assistance might also be able to help. In addition to being blind, I suspect that due to this user being a French/Italian immigrant, English is not this user's native language; they've also admitted to having physical, emotional, and cognitive disabilities. east.718 at 22:14, November 17, 2007

Found it, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Accessibility, doesn't seem very extensive, i would think that this should be a top priority of the foundation itself, to make wikipedia the encylopedia that Anyone can edit--Jac16888 (talk) 00:05, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I see this user has previously talked with User:Graham87, who is also blind. I have some experience of JAWS myself, through a friend. Would it be a good idea to ask User:Graham87 of he would get together with User:hopiakuta to sort those pages out? I say this because User:Graham87's pages are legible to us lesser beings, and I can foresee this happening again if the pages are left as they are. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 00:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

See this discussion and here for more on this. Tvoz |talk 01:55, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey Tvoz, wish you had told me this was going on, I would have been over here earlier. There was an extensive conversation regarding this user at my talk page- in fact this case was the basis for the formation of Wikiproject Accessibility. I cannot confirm that this user is blind- in fact he said something to the contrary during one of his conversations with Graham; "...I do know that you had expected that my primary disability, my severest disability, would be visual in nature. Now, although I currently have my machine set @ twenty pica, that is far from being my severest symptom. It is far down on the list..." which would indicate that he is not using a screen reader. I am inclined to believe him, as he seems honest if nothing else. Although I do not question his good faith, I am concerned that his outlook, which seems excessively negative (apparently we are handicappist and racist... although I feel I've been quite understanding with him) may get him thrown off eventually. He has been asking for a phone consultation, however Tvoz, Graham, and I were unable to find someone willing to speak with him over the telephone. I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out. l'aqúatique 20:46, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I've had some time to collect my thoughts, (sometimes that takes a while *grin*) and I have a few more bits for you guys to chew on. First, while misuse of a screen reader could technically be responsible for some of his problems (formatting issues, mostly) I don't see how that could account for the overall weirdness of the actual content of what he writes. I'm also not convinced that English isn't his first language- I had originally hypothesized something along those lines... see here because of his tendency to substitute common words for rarely used ones (for example he says "scribe" in place of "write," "type," or "say"), but I have since realized that his use of complex ironies and other literary devices would seem to disprove my hypothesis. I'm not an expert on these matters (but my parents both are... so I grew up with crap like this as dinner conversation), but my bet is on neurological damage here. l'aqúatique 06:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

For the formatting issues; it's possibly relevant that he is using older web browsers - iCab and IE on a mac. That's likely the cause of not only the formatting problems but the technical problems (crashes etc) he says he's been having with longer pages. Does anyone know a better way to browse wikipedia from Mac OS 9 or earlier? —Random832 15:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The user also does not seem to be 100% blind (though he does say he has a visual disability, and may well be legally blind) - he has (i think) said he does not use a screen reader, but must use a large font to read. —Random832 15:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

(Unindented)Well, if the screen reader deal is off the table, would it be out of line to ask him to use a different computer- say one at the library? He would have no problems getting one of the volunteers or employees to increase the font size for him if that's all that's necessary. On another note, I should mention that I think it was probably a bad idea to blank his userpage. He will perceive that as being handicappist or racist or whatever it is we are, in addition to the fact that the person who did it did it before we finished this conversation and came to a conclusion. l'aqúatique 16:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think, too, that partial-sightedness may be only part of the issue here. I spent some time looking at his (apologies if I assume incorrectly there) contributions, user page & talk page to try and figure out where this user is coming from. It's clear that his thought processes work on quite a different level from the mainstream, and I'd guess his allegations of handicappism/racism etc stem from his perception that others simply fail to grasp those processes, and tend towards him being frustrated, not at his inability to communicate but at others to understand. Some of the connections he makes in his language are extremely logical in one sense and even extend beyond the natural logic of language to take it in a different direction altogether. Having said that, he does want to contribute here in his own way and it is difficult to resist that enthusiasm. I think the first thing to be sorted out is his technological limitation; that seems to be something of a major hurdle. But I confess, I've no idea how that can be achieved; the accessibility project cannot force users to use particular technologies, even assuming they are available where he lives, and nor should it. I will try to send him an email and even if it takes a while, try to move things forward for him. Before I do that, can I ask if anyone has actually tried to email? --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 01:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't, but if you do e-mail him I have a few suggestions. Be as clear and explicit as possible- no figures of speech, idioms, etc. Leave no room for misinterpretation, either unintentional or otherwise. Be warm and welcoming, but not overbearingly so- as that could potentially be perceived as pity. Put a link to your userpage in the signature.

If you'd like, you can e-mail me the letter before you send it to him and I could look it over. Two heads are better than one, right? l'aqúatique 07:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The "email user" link from his user page returns an error stating that he doesn't have an email address set. It seems that, for whatever reason, he would prefer to communicate by speech in some way. The fact that voice-chatting isn't required here is one of the reasons why I like this place, so I'm not putting my hand up for that as I have said previously. Graham87 08:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I would be of little help. I have a relatively minor case of APD, and it is difficult for me to always understand information I hear. I'm also quite shy on the phone, for understandable reasons. l'aqúatique 17:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

King James I of England

This long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size and edit frequency within reason. — Sebastian

Indefinite block of an established editor

This very long thread has been moved to a sub page to preserve the smooth functioning of this board by keeping the page size within reason. - Jehochman

Beowulf (hero)

I moved Beowulf (hero) to Beowulf (fictional character) because I thought "fictional character" was more neutral and more in line with other fictional articles. User:Berig reverted my edits, stating that "There's a difference between legend and fiction". In the talk page, he wrote "Legendary characters, OTOH, like King Arthur and Beowulf have no identifiable original authors and there is scholarship which discusses their possible historic origins." Anyway, I still think "hero" shouldn't be used in the title for the reasons I stated before. If "fictional character" is not suitable then I think the title should be moved to Beowulf (legend) or something similar.--CyberGhostface (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I am surprised that CyberGhostface brings the discussion up here without even discussing the new suggestion "Beowulf (legend)" on Talk:Beowulf (hero). Notifying the ANI looks a bit excessive.--Berig (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not an issue that requires any sort of admin intervention. Note the big red letters at the top of this page reminding everyone that this is not dispute resolution. I would suggest that you keep this conversation to the relevant talk page for the time being, as this doesn't even appear to be a dispute yet. Natalie (talk) 18:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

A unilateral move is bad practice. It may be your judgment that "fictional character" is more natural and more consistent, but making the move without getting consensus first can easily result in conflict and conflict escalation. For my part, I think Beowulf is just Beowulf the hero, because he actually has roots in more than one saga, because he gets reused, and because his function is Hero, with a big H. Never mind all that, though: moving without consensus can lead to the sorts of conflicts that do end up here. Even if it's wrong, the majority has to set the pace, and, if there is no consensus for a move, status quo has the advantage (particularly with old articles with a spiderweb of links). Geogre (talk) 22:27, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Without expressing an opinion on the merits of this minor dispute (but of course, I do have an opinion), it would be advisable for all editors to be aware of the principle set out in Geogre's last sentence. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I have proposed to merge the article as a whole back into Beowulf. His roots elsewhere are barely mentioned in this article, and should be mentioned there. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea. The Anglo-Saxon scribe was not very interested in psychological realism, so the character of Beowulf isn't very developed. The narrative origins belong in a "sources and analogs" section for the poem, and as Beowulf he appears only in Beowulf. Hrothgar has much more complexity as a character. Even Wiglaf is more interesting. Beowulf is an active force, not a meditative one. Utgard Loki (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Please block this (my) username. Ais523 is not online.

Because it is name of Indian superstar, who was polled as 'superstar of the millenium' by BBC World. You can easily google it. Thanks. Amitabh Bachchan (talk) 18:53, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Err...blocked. Nishkid64 (talk) 19:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

There were moments in my life when I felt like banging my head on wall. How on earth the whole world left this for me? Please block this also. I request you not to consider me as vandalist. This 'Abhishek Bachchan' is son of 'Amitabh Bachchan' and husband of Miss World, termed as most beautiful woman on earth, Aishwarya Rai. I am of her age. But I never proposed her. Otherwise... Abhishek Bachchan (talk) 20:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Blocked. Nishkid64 (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I have no idea why this user decided to ask me, considering that I rarely do blocks except as sandboxing and on out-of-control bots. In case the same person is reading this thread: WP:AIV or WP:UAA would likely be better places to request blocks because they wouldn't depend on the admin you ask being online. --ais523 10:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What's going on here? It sounds like the user is specifically creating usernames in order to get them blocked so no-one else will take them. But this could be accomplished just as easily by scrambling the password, and it's technically against the rules to do self-requested blocks. —Random832 22:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand it either. If it gets out of hand I suggest WP:RFCU to clarify. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

POV pushing and disruption

On the talk page of WP:PW there is a debate going on which is going close to getting completely out of hand. Lid is trying to push a POV that WP:SPOILER applies when a wrestling title belt changes hands on WWE Smackdown, and edits that reflect this should be allowed. It has been argued by myself and by The Hybrid that this is not the correct path to take - due to issues with people within WP:PW who hate spoilers, and may consider them tantamount to violating WP:NOT (by turning the wrestling section of Misplaced Pages into a news site). My issue with it is that Lid is trying to push the Australian transmission of Smackdown (before the US transmission by about 18 hours) as proof. He has pushed the Cit Episode Template - which as a result I sent to TfD because of the threat the usage of this template posed in this manner (explained on the TfD). Lid's conduct - in my opinion - is disrupting what until now was a consistent and reasonable course of action within the group of editors who work through WP:PW or independently as wrestling followers. Lid's questioning of the process has got to the point where I can not address him any more without violating WP:CIVIL. He isn't listening to reason or the silent majority that The Hybrid has said he represents - and I agree with him. We need admin help on this, and because Smackdown transmits weekly and we don't know when the next title change will be, mediation or RfC simply isn't an option as it would take too long. Lid has made a number of false accusations against me (which could be a WP:CIVIL violation anyway but I'm not sure - it's certainly close if it's not) including accusing me of hyperbole and excessive "attitude" (for want of a better word). I am doing my bit to protect the wrestling part of Misplaced Pages under the rules - certainly WP:OR and WP:V in this case. This is being ignored or at least not respected. Admin help would be very much appreciated with this. !! Justa Punk !! 22:23, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

And I forgot the direct link! Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Professional_wrestling#Consensus !! Justa Punk !! 22:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

In all honesty, I can't quite see the problem. WP:SPOILER doesn't stop you posting spoilers, it just suggests that you post a spoiler warning. If the information is true and can be sourced - even if the source is the TV program itself - then what's the problem? it's a viable source, and we shouldn't, in my opinion, withhold content that's true and verfifable, even if it means some US viewers will have their entertainment spoiled. Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 22:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought it said DON'T include spoiler warnings, except in certain exceptional cases where you would not expect an article to contain spoilers (like if an unreleased movie leaks to the web, etc). <eleland/talkedits> 23:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

As a member of WP:PW who has privately had these conversations with two different administrators (both Mangojuice (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and Lid (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)) I'm going to have to say that my view point has done a complete 180 on the spoiler topic. WP:PWis not a walled garden, and is subject to Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, one of these being WP:SPOILER. If SmackDown airs in Australia, then the results do meet WP:V, and WP:RS. Also, the Cite Episode template does not lead to WP:OR in almost any case. How else am I supposed to source information say, on a character from the television show Scrubs since no other sources but episodes of the show exist? If the "spoilers" can be verified, then we cannot exclude them just because some people "don't want to be spoiled". It is not acceptable to delete information from an article about a work of fiction because you think it spoils the plot. Such concerns must not interfere with neutral point of view, encyclopedic tone, completeness, or any other element of article quality -- from WP:SPOILER. I'm sorry, but I don't see Lid POV pushing and being disruptive, if anything, I see him looking out for the betterment of this project. Not wanting to be spoiled is not a leg to stand on in my opinion. Bmg916 23:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Something is being missed here. The Hybrid brought his point up - and it's being ignored. He said that there is a silent majority that does not want WWE spoilers. It doesn't matter what WP:SPOILER says, a silent majority doesn't want them. Lid is abusing his position as admin by pushing WP:SPOILER because the wrestling is a special case. It's outside normal spoiler procedure. I completely disagree with the assertion that the TV showing in Australia automatically passes WP:V and WP:RS. Where is the back up? What's to stop someone coming in with a spoiler after the Australian showing, and just make an edit that is completely false. And state that "It was on TV". TV by itself - in the case of pro wrestling - does not pass WP:RS, and without a third party back up WP:V also fails. I thought consensus was a cornerstone of WP policy? Right now, Lid is trying to force a change against the tide of existing consensus. If allowed this will open a massive can of worms and Lid can't see it because he is putting general policy forward without taking the unique nature of pro wrestling into account. This is a frustrating situation - WP is not a news site. Allowing spoilers will turn it into a news site. Why can't anyone see this? !! Justa Punk !! 05:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What silent majority? how have you measured them? why should wrestling be considered a special case? This is just another example of one of the special interest groups we have here trying to twist wikipolicy to suit their own aims. --Fredrick day (talk) 14:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not just that it's aired in Australia, it's that it's aired in Australia (or Canada, for that matter) and it's been reported by numerous internet sites. I don't want to hear about dirtsheets failing WP:V, we're not talking about some nobody's speculations on who's going to main event WrestleMania, we're talking about event reports sent to these sites by people at the taping. When it airs, and we know what's been cut or what hasn't, what's left to prove? Moreover, most of these people have no reason to lie. Occasionally, a goofball does send in a fake Smackdown report to the sheets, but it's quickly corrected by the real thing. I grant that this happening at all is sufficient cause to not rely solely on the sheets, but a very similar situation exists with the World Series of Poker. Bracelet winners are "spoiled" on wikipedia months before they air, with nothing but assorted web reports to back it up (the main event winner is announced on TV news here and there, but not the earlier events), and of course the accounts of the people at the TV tapings. Tromboneguy0186 (talk) 09:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I could not reply earlier but I was performing some things in real life that needed attending to. I will now do a little breakdown of your last post on me with commentary.

• POV: Yes, I will admit I have a POV on the topic. I say this as you yourself also have a POV on the topic and that is why we are where we are right now. Your usage of POV isn't the way it is meant to be used on wikipedia and gives the idea that having a point of view on a discussion is against wikipedias rules. It is not. What is against wikipedias rules is modifying wikipedia to reflect your own biases, which I have not done, and the basis of this topic has nothing to do with bias on a topic but apparently "bias" on implementation of WP:SPOILER. I have been involved in many disputes, that's not in question, but from your interpretation AfD's are against wikipedias rules as users are planting their POV's on whether articles should be kept or deleted. I have been here for over a year now and one thing I have always tried to adhere to, and to the best of my knowledge I have, is neutrality in articles.
• Silent Majority: You keep making reference to the silent majority of WP:PW supporting your view point except that my position in the discussion is that of the more important majority, which happens to be silent in this regard, which is the majority of wikipedia that support spoilers hence why it is an agreed upon subject at WP:SPOILER. I have stated it numerous times but a wikiproject can not overrule this simply because they don't want to and don't agree with it, it is the rule that wikipedia as a whole have agreed upon and countering it with an anonynmous silent majority in a wikiproject does not work.
• Lid is abusing his position as admin by pushing WP:SPOILER because the wrestling is a special case.: Not once, until Bmg916 mentioned it in his reply here, has my admin status even come up in the course of the discussion. I have been simply a user bringing to light what I saw as a situation in opposition to wikipedias stance as a whole. In addition to which I have not used any admin tools in the course of this topic, in fact this entire topic has taken place on talk pages where my tools are worthless anyway. I have not in any way, shape or form used my adminship to take a foothold in this topic, relying on policy and guidelines to back up my positions and claiming otherwise is simply based on that I am an administrator and thus every time I involve myself in a debate it's "admin abuse" to the opposition.
• It's outside normal spoiler procedure.: No, it is not. There is absolutely no support for this position and you have yet to bring up a compelling argument as to why professional wrestling should be treated differently than either television shows or sporting events. In both cases the spoilers would still be posted, and that is even if they had not aired on television yet and had sources for the spoilers.
• TV by itself - in the case of pro wrestling - does not pass WP:RS: Actually, from your point of view TV by itself, in the case of television shows, do not pass WP:RS because anyone could make up what they saw and post it claiming that episode was the source. It's a position that is illogical and seems to be based on potential abuse rather than actual usage.
• Lid is trying to force a change against the tide of existing consensus.: You pointed me to it, although I thought I had also pointed you to it, but again - Misplaced Pages:Consensus can change.
• WP is not a news site. Allowing spoilers will turn it into a news site.: This is correct, wikipedia is not wikinews, it is however an encyclopedia and recent results of wrestling events are NOT news in the traditional sense. Say a mixed martial artist won heir fight and the results get posted here, is this news? Yes because it is recent. Does this make wikipedia a news site? No, it makes it an up to date article with the most recent changes to the individual in question. Claiming recent events are "news" and thus omitting them because of that is a position that is semantical in basis and has no support in policy.

In the course of this topic I mentioned that if you felt so strongly about your position that you nominate Template:Cite episode for deletion as by your rationale it is OR. I was being sarcastic and attempted to illustrate why I thought your argument was illogical, but instead you took me up on the offer and are now attempting to have a template, linked to by 2000 articles, deleted on the claim that professional wrestling is a special case which, as previously stated, it isn't. Trying to create special rules for a specific area of articles is simply walled gardening and should not be allowed. I realise this reply is quite lengthy and wordy but it is all I could think of to respond to the allegations brought up against me, the suggestion that I am an incivil POV warrior. If anyone has any question to my demeanor or more actions in this case I implore them to look through my contributions and find a case where I have fallen out of line. –– Lid 10:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I hate the term silent majority, as it sounds like a cop-out. I did comment on that once, though I didn't use that term, when our view was described as a minority view, but I only mentioned it in passing. I don't see consensus as relevant to the issue, as this is a dispute about interpretations of policy. My view is that spoilers damage the articles. In the past we have had several established users threaten to retire if spoilers are added to articles. The detrimental effect to the articles would be permanent, while the benefits would be short-term, as short as 4 days. However, the long-lasting effect of slowing the number of new users joining while alienating the experienced editors of this subject would cause these articles which have just recently been dragged out of the gutters to go straight to hell all over again. Adding spoilers would be against the best interests of the articles, plain and simple. The Hybrid T/C 23:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all, it doesn't matter where the event was broadcast first. The fact that the event was broadcast and that multiple editors can confirm that broadcast is more then enough to deal with any WP:V issues. Also, using the broadcast to tell the outcomes of matches also wouldn't violate WP:NOR.

There is no, "unverifiable until broadcast in the US", clause in WP:V with regard to TV broadcasts. Never has been one, and never will be one because it just promises systemic bias. Also, keeping information off and article because it hasn't been released in the US is also a systemic bias. And if you use the excuse that releasing the results will "spoil" US viewers, then you run into trouble with WP:SPOILER. --Farix (Talk) 00:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I seem to recall that there have been problems in the past with Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Professional wrestling (aka WP:PW) and so-called spoilers. To boil it down to basics, there are editors of the wrestling pages who appear to be opposed to any information, from any source no matter how reliable, about a wrestling bout, to appear on Misplaced Pages prior to some associated event (the US broadcast of a TV program, perhaps?)

As The Hybrid says, there have been expressions of extreme distress on this matter. We might well lose editors over this.

On the other hand, what these editors are demanding seems unacceptable: that they should be empowered to impose an embargo on publication of a certain type of Misplaced Pages content: the results of wrestling bouts that have been televised.

It seems to be a bit of a storm in a teacup, to be honest. A matter of much import to a few editors, but somewhat against our policies, in that it involves the putative embargoing of information for reasons that aren't easy for outsiders to understand. We have on occasion respected academic embargoes, but the suggestion of extending such limitations to sporting events and the like seems unlikely to gain consensus. Even in the academic case, we would not continue to uphold an embargo once the news hit the mainstream press. --Tony Sidaway 00:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It does appear to be a storm in a tea cup. The source is the show legally broadcasted in Australia through one of the pay TV networks, under license from WWE. How much time difference between this broadcast and its airing in the US 24-36hours maybe less? From the way I see it the addition of a spoiler is wasted editing for its redundant within a day. The reverse is true to way more programs that get aired in the US first then the rest of the world waits for a couple of days to actually see the show, in reality TV series shouldnt use the spoiler tag on episodes because its impossible to fairly assess at what point it gets removed. Gnangarra 00:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

TV is not a published source, so it fails as a source by that definition. (by Justa Punk.

I seriously hope he doesn't truly believe that as it is completely absurd. --Farix (Talk) 00:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion#Template:Cite episode, see also my large comment above. –– Lid 01:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

That was Justa Punk, not me, and I hope that my credibility isn't damaged in your eyes by that. Anyway, embargo is an exaggeration. We're talking 4 days here. We're asking to wait 4 days in order to avoid an exodus of editors, and putting a filter on new editors, thus damaging these very tender articles, which have bad dits made to them on a level that would mean semiprotection for any other article. It takes a lot of editors to keep these articles from becoming cruft-filled, so spoilers are not the main issue. The side effects of adding them are the main issue. Surely waiting 4 days is not unreasonable, or unacceptable. The Hybrid T/C 01:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The issue that arises is when something big happens at the events, not each event week by week, as all that happens is that the pages become an edit war for four days between spoiler posters and spoiler removers with edit summaries of "NO SPOILERS". This has happened repeatedly for years and there has never been a mass exodus, or anything resembling it, because they were posted. They are a fact of life and the idea that the editing of the articles will crash to a halt because of this is an extreme worst case scenerio that is pretty much unlikely to happen. –– Lid 02:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality has been around for centuries, but the problems arise when the governments acknowledge it as legitimate. There hasn't been a problem because they can be removed, so there is a better chance of avoiding the spoilers than if they are simply added. Also, "edit war" is a serious exaggeration. There is maybe two edits on a few of the pages in those 4 days on average. If they are accepted, however, then articles containing spoilers will become the standard, and that's where problems will arise. The Hybrid T/C 02:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what your homosexuality analogy is meant to be implying. As for my "serious exaggeration" on the number of edits the pages receive in regards to spoiler edit warring I count a fair few more than two edits on those four days. Articles containing spoilers are the standard on wikipedia, not the exception. We are not an exception either and claims otherwise are simply based off, well, morals. –– Lid 03:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The homosexuality analogy was meant to imply that the general public, in this case WP:PW, only become violently upset about something they are opposed to when those who are in power over them violate what they believe in. In this case, WP:PW is willing to live with the current spoiler situation because they can do something about it. If they are told that they can't anymore, then they will become truly upset. Also, while you link to 4 histories, you know as well as I do that is actually just one example, as it was all about the same title change. Also, as anyone who edits wrestling articles knows, title changes are the exception to every rule. People go crazy when a title changes hands. The Hybrid T/C 04:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:PW is not the general public, in fact if we want to consider wikipedia as a society it is WP:PW that are a minority fringe. "WP:PW is willing to live with the current spoiler situation because they can do something about it." You again speak for the 'silent majority' which ignores that the issue is not the existing consensus of WP:PW but the consensus of wikipedia as a whole, and the comments by the neutral parties here are illustrative that the current situation should not have occurred in the first place and trying to maintain a position which is wrong on its basis simply by the argument that it was the position means that we can not repair mistakes if they occur. As for your comment about the four articles the reason I linked to four instead of one was because this one event caused an edit war across FOUR pages over an issue that should not have become a "policy" of a wikiproject to overrule wikipedias own policies and guidelines. Nothing you have argued so far, when broken down, comes up again as much more than "spoilers are bad, don't you see that?" which isn't an argument at all. –– Lid 05:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

loosely calling WWE a sporting event its normal for the results of such event to be added to an article after the event has occured even though the information doesnt immediately have written sources to support it. Additionally referring to an TV series episode event, again its common to see the episode information added before there is print media information. Yes I realise that alot of this is primary sourcing something that many TV shows suffer from, but the articles are retained anyway. IMHO to removal information until its broadcast in the US is clear WP:BIAS. The use of a spoiler for the same reason is also Systemic Bias. As for the template the TfD should be allowed to run its course without venue shopping. Gnangarra 02:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It isn't about the spoilers for US audiences, it is about the detrimental effect they will have on the articles. Don't ignore that. The Hybrid T/C 02:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

They won't have a detrimental effect on the articles, everyone who currently "monitors" spoilers reads them and then removes them. They've never quit wikipedia in the past for having to read a spoiler. –– Lid 03:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Because the only people who work to remove the spoilers are those who don't care if they see them, but do care if unverified (which they are 99% of the time) information is added to the articles under their scope. If it became the standard, then the only option for those who don't want to read them would be to stop editing the articles entirely. The Hybrid T/C 04:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed a large overlap between people who claim spoilers are "unverified information" and those who claim spoilers, in general, are bad. As previously commented upon, repeatedly by numerous editors, these are verifiable and your last line that once again implies that editors will exodus if spoilers become the norm is still baseless. –– Lid 05:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Why must we wait 4 days? Why not put the information up when it is available? To wait would be to give in to the systemic bias, which isn't a good thing in the long run. Will American Whovians, or whatever the Dr. Who fans call are themselves, start make similar demands citing the "exception" that WP:PW was granted on match results? And what about the Olympics? Clearly Wikiproject Olimpics will form and demand that results should be published on Misplaced Pages until after NBC airs them in the US. After all, they are only asking for a few hours there.

This "editors will live if spoilers are posted" line also doesn't hold up under scrutiny. As Lid already stated, editors who regularly edit the articles are going to see the "spoilers" regardless, so you are really not "protecting" them at all. --Farix (Talk) 03:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Lid was wrong; those who don't want to see spoilers are able to actively avoid them if they make a effort; there was something that I didn't want spoiled a couple weeks back, and I was able to pull it off. If it had been made the standard for wrestling articles, then that would have been impossible. The reason this is a big deal, which is what I'm trying to get across to you as I admit it doesn't sound like one, is because people are threatening to retire over it, and it will also place a filter on the new users that join. Wrestling fans are just about neurotic when it comes to spoilers if they don't want to read them, far more so than Who fans. This will be incredibly detrimental in the long run do to the simply massive amount of cruft added to wrestling articles on a daily basis. I don't think that you understand just how large the scale is we're talking about. Neither Dr. Who, nor the Olympics can even come close to this. For a visual comparison, those would be measured in millimeters, while wrestling articles would be measured in kilometers. That is not, I repeat not an exaggeration. The wrestling articles being of any quality whatsoever, and not completely consumed with unverified and irrelevant information is a very recent development, and if the experienced users, who are looked to as the de facto leaders of the project begin retiring, then things will probably revert back to the way they were before within a few months, as the remnant won't be able to keep that many articles clean. The Hybrid T/C 04:44, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Why does updating wrestlers' pages when they win titles on taped shows mean kilometers of useless cruft will be added and we will be powerless to stop it? Even if it did, correlation does not imply causation. The issues would be, and are, entirely distinct. Tromboneguy0186 (talk) 08:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The only person I see threatening to retire over it re yourself and some other editors that perceive spoilers as bad, this may seem shocking but when spoilers were accepted as part of wikipedia some users retired in protest. The policy remained Why? Because it was the policy and the small number of editors against it can not stonewall a policy they don't like by threatening departure if consensus does not go their way. This is the same situation as to what is happening here, except it has taken a lot longer for it to be brought up that when this was passed it was simply ignored by a group then called "consensus". You stated that I was wrong but have yet to entertain the idea that maybe the original decision reached by WP:PW was entirely wrong from its start and that longevity is not an argument for maintaining the status quo if the status quo is fundamentally incorrect.

Every television show on wikipedia includes spoilers, has that caused their articles to suffer from a lack of editors refusing to edit the articles because they contained spoilers? No. The articles continue to be edited every single day by hundreds of people who may or may not like spoilers but it is irreverent, they are allowed.

Your line of "de facto leaders" is especially troublesome as it implies that both the WP:PW has a power brokering system between a select few, and also glosses over the fact I am an experienced editor in professional wrestling, not some admin who blew in on a high horse on a little fringe topic I know nothing about to plant my views upon. I have watched, editted and commented for a long time on professional wrestling on wikipedia and then to claim that the "leaders" of WP:PW will depart if spoilers are finally allowed into the garden is truly ridiculous. –– Lid 05:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

<edit conflict>I think this is missing the point spoilers serve a purpose in that they warn others that information they may not want to know has been included in the article. This works well for things like books and movies.
For TV shows I think this isnt warranted because at what point do they get removed, and what audience is the spoiler for hence if its because the show hasnt be aired in the US then thats Bias, as it would be if the show hasnt been aired in Australia, or Europe. We are building an encyclopedia that contains information about a subject when that information alters then the article should be also be altered, as wiki that means that when an editor is able to provide a source and do the edit, we shouldnt be waiting days for a show to be aired everywhere. Also we work by developing consensus not by stonewalling until your POV is the result, these comments make it difficult for editors to assume good faith and it also creates bad feelings in discussions making people reluctant to even consider your POV. Gnangarra 05:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) And just to clarify I have, not once, stated that spoilers are to be used for "week by week" article cruft. Non-notable incidents are still non-notable incidents and would be, in all likelihood, still removed as such by editors keeping the articles clean. The idea the articles will explode in cruft if spoilers are allowed is truly groundless and a complete misinterpretation of what this debate is about. –– Lid 05:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It may be time to open up an RFC on the matter and bring in a wider range of opinion, or it may just demonstrate that a minority opinion is a minority opinion. But I don't think we should get bent out of shape or make changes to policies to appease editors who threaten to leave if they don't get their way. We are and encyclopedia and not a fansite. --Farix (Talk) 14:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I certainly think that a RFC is the way forward - let's put this one to bed or it's going to go around and around and around. --Fredrick day (talk) 17:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Farix (Talk) 18:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

ROHA 's anti-Semitism again

Once again, an editor calling himself Hans Rosenthal - ROHA - is posting insulting and offensive comments. Please see this recent discussion, in particular the comments by User: Nemissimo. Strill asking for a range block - or do we just keep accepting his years of harassment? Tvoz |talk 04:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This editor has a long history of spewing anti-semitic vitriol and general disruption. Unfortunately he is coming in from a broad range of IPs (see here). To catch them all we'd need to block 84.148.0.0/17, which is not likely to fly. Instead I propose that we put a de facto ban on ROHA such that any editor may revert him on sight. Such reversions would be treated like any other reversions of a banned editor; namely, the person reverting would not need to take into account 3RR or other restrictions. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone ever tried contacting his ISP? --Golbez (talk) 07:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In principle that could work, but in practice we may as well beat our monitors with colored pencils. Especially in this case, where the ISP is Sprint. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

What about what Nemissimo says about how .de handles him: here? And has anyone talked to Foundation legal-types about situations like this? Tvoz |talk 17:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Range block. Anti-Semitism, or anti-any religion is a great way to invite a smack on Misplaced Pages's face in court. We should nip prejudice in the bud.Bakaman 01:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Problem is, it's a big range. It's a /17, which works out to over 32,000 IP addresses. I'd rather semi-protect the articles until he gets bored and slinks away. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Kuebie

Kuebie (talk · contribs) has been edit-warring over Wei Man and, when asked to discuss the issues, responds by making derogatory remarks toward Chinese people. (See Talk:Wei Man; see also his/her contributions in general, as well as his/her talk page.) I would like to ask another administrator to intervene and warn said user. Thanks. --Nlu (talk) 04:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you please provide a diff for the "derogatory remarks"? I browsed through the talk page and didn't notice any. — Sebastian 06:50, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

These are some examples:

Also see this -- which may appear innocent until you realize that this user is perfectly capable of using proper capitalization and is intentionally decapitalizing "Chinese":

--Nlu (talk) 14:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything here either. Raising objections based on capitalization is heading into WP:LAME territory (note he did capitalize China and Chinese in the other diffs, for whatever that's worth). Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, Kuebie does use the words "masturbation" and "ilk" once. But I agree that this nothing that needs admin intervention. Nlu, an experienced user and a Doctor of Jurisprudence, should know better than to bother everyone here. I, for one, feel cheated of the time I spent reading through this frivolous mountain made of a molehill. — Sebastian 23:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that this is not serious; the display of prejudice and name-calling on the basis of race, gender, or ethnicity on this cooperative project is never OK, and I am disappointed at the failure to view this seriously. --Nlu (talk) 14:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:ATren

I'd appreciate some admin input. For those of us who have been around awhile, I think we have all come across users who rarely ever edit mainspace, but hang around on Talk pages and involve themselves in disputes, often making them worse. I'd appreciate it if User:ATren's edit history was looked at, because he is such a user. Very few vandal reverts, virtually no mainspace edits--and the ones he makes tend to revolve around a Talk page controversy--and lots of Talk page argumentation with a variety of editors. ATren became heavily--heavily--involved in my ArbCom and would never let any comment go unanswered, whether addressed to him or not. In fact, during the months of September and October virtually all of his edits were to my ArbCom. He was not a party, he just decided to involve himself vociferously. In his edit history are other patterns like this. On the stub I created for one of the U.S.'s most acclaimed journalists, David Margolick ATren fairly included a controversial issue, but he has taken a quote that pointed to a larger trend in journalism and put it on Margolicks page, which I think has WP:BLP issues. I don't think Misplaced Pages is well-served in applying a passing remark about a journalistic trend to one journalist, just because the journalist is talked about in the article. Regardless, ATren is also arguing non-stop against a quote about the National Legal Center for the Public Interest made by Margolick that three editors have seen nothing wrong with (User:Jeffpw, User:Swatjester and User:Newyorkbrad), in addition to myself. So his addition of that quote seems somewhat WP:POINT. Since RfC is going by the wayside, perhaps there is an easier way around and to have someone look at his edit history, that includes trying re-litigate a dismissed ArbCom on User:Raul654's Arb Nomination, and if they see a problematic trend, to please give him some advice. If there's nothing wrong whatsoever, then I would welcome advice as to why that is. Because I find it disruptive, and if one look at my contributions, they will see a wide array of high-value contributions (new lead photos on Stephen Colbert, Bill Maher, and Ingrid Newkirk and several new article creations, including Murray Hill (performer), David Margolick and Tashi Wangdi). --David Shankbone 05:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

David still insists on edit-warring Ted Frank related articles, after 4 admins and one arbitrator has specifically asked him not to. Ted Frank is the directory of this organization. That fact was recently added to the article, and within a week David was on that article adding criticism. I felt some of what he added was undue criticism, but the main issue is that David continues to edit Ted Frank articles, and this is problematic since David and Ted were just involved in a very contentious arbitration case. There are millions of articles to work on here; why is David editing warring on the one which happens to be Ted Frank's employer? ATren (talk) 05:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

To answer ATren's assertion, I work in law and I volunteer in public interest law; but I added a reputable cited source that is not even a criticism. What ATren is doing is focusing on the editor and not the edit, and multiple editors have seen no issue with it. It continues because ATren continues to stoke the problem when I'm citing the national legal affairs editor the The New York Times on something that is not even a criticism, but an observation. Second, ATren's behavior itself is a problem and there are other editors who have contacted me about him. One need only look at his edit history to see that 90% of his contributions are to Talk page arguments, ones that he involves himself in. That would be fine if there was a healthy mix of mainspace edits and vandal-reverting, but a pattern has developed with him that could arguably be called WP:HARASS. Regardless, with three other editors (including Newyorkbrad, who was also involved in the ArbCom) seeing no concerns over the addition, why is ATren fighting a fight that need not be fought? There's a pattern. --David Shankbone 05:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'd like to point out ATren has a history of this. He has made his User page a place where he rants against other editors whether it be me or or other editors. My only point is that this is not healthy behavior on this site and we are here to build an encyclopedia, not to go around arguing on Talk pages in disputes that have nothing to do with us, and using our User pages to voice our "disgust" with other editors. This isn't the way we should be working on here, and I am only asking this be pointed out to ATren. --David Shankbone 06:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

David, why do you continue to edit war on Ted Frank related articles? Ted has left the project, you won the arb case, so what is the point in continuing this conflict? The only reason you and I have a conflict is because you refuse to leave Ted Frank's articles alone, even after others in authority have asked you to. ATren (talk) 06:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

ATren, this has nothing to do with Ted Frank--the source I put on there was fine upon review by three other editors, two running for ArbCom, and was from 17 years before Ted Frank ever entered the picture!--but has everything to do with your problematic behavior. Why are you on a crusade here? Why do you go on crusades? Why are you involving yourself in so many disputes? Why don't you contribute more and stop arguing with me, User:William M. Connolley, User:Avidor, User:Raul654, User:Ossified, User:Dev920, et. al. ATren, it is not so much that you have these arguments--we all do--it's more that these arguments form the vast majority of your edits. Discussing it with you, I have learned will get me nowhere. I'm asking for outside admins to look at your edit history and see if there is nothing wrong with it. --David Shankbone 06:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not getting into a pissing match here. I'm fully prepared to defend myself against all these charges, but I'm not going to comment anymore on this thread. If someone wants clarification on my position, you know where to reach me. ATren (talk) 06:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not asking for admins to clarify anything with ATren. I'm asking them to ask themselves if a user with 80-90% of their edits revolving around Talk page disputes with next-to-no mainspace content contribution, whether there is a problem with that pattern. I'm sure ATren can explain all of his positions. My point is a pattern has emerged that is there for anyone to see, and it is a pattern that I think is problematic behavior, whether call it WP:DISRUPT or WP:HARASS. --David Shankbone 06:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• I find the arguments on both sides unconvincing. If you need action, post diffs to show what the other person has done that requires administrator attention. My advice to both of you is to avoid the other. If you want to make a complaint here, keep it concise and show us the problem edits. Otherwise, this is just a bunch of unactionable chat. - Jehochman 06:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

That 80-90% of the entirety of a user's edits are arguing on discussion pages is WP:DISRUPT. His relitigating a dismissed ArbCom against an arbitrator going through nomination could be WP:HARASS. He has followed me onto mainspace pages , , on my ArbCom (only one of about hundred diffs supplied) then started to re-litigate that Arbcase at User:Raul654's ArbNom , on my work on sister projects and ranted about me on his User page . I'm getting sick of it, and I think it is very actionable and I'm asking for admins to review his edit history and to do something about it, because right now a valuable and longterm contributor feels this behavior is disruptive and harassing. --David Shankbone 06:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

And he continues to follow my edits. I'm asking something be said to him about his behavior, because there is clearly a problem. --David Shankbone 06:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, ATren is clearly stalking David Shankbone's edits (see AEI Legal Center for the Public Interest (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) for an example). My experience with ATren is the same as David's: he focuses on motive, not content, editor, not edits, will not drop it once he has a bee in his bonnet, and consistently mistakes his own personal viewpoint for neutrality. But this is not a job for ANI (other than to instruct ATren to stop stalking David). Guy (Help!) 12:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Guy. If you had researched the situation more closely, you'd realize that Shankbone is clearly stalking Ted Frank. If you had researched the situation, you'd find that AEI Legal Center for the Public Interest (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) was not touched by anyone for two years - then as soon as it became associated with Ted Frank, Shankbone took ownership by adding undue criticism, then edit-warring to keep it. He also recently tried adding the "neoconservative" label to all of Ted's articles, which was rejected by others. And if you had researched the situation, you'd find that Shankbone is getting his "dirt" on me from your attack page on me, which you had ironically linked from your user page even as you were fighting to suppress such links in the BADSITES debate. ATren (talk) 13:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• If you think that David Shankbone is stalking another editor then the solution is not to stalk David in return. But thank you for noting the truth of the point that you never drop it. Neither do I. Guy (Help!) 13:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not stalking David, Guy, I'm disputing his edits on Ted Frank's articles. Don't misrepresent something you haven't properly researched. Every conflict I've had with David in the last week has been related to his pursuit of Ted Frank, and nothing else. ATren (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In other words you're following him round picking holes in his edits, which is what we call stalking. Is it not obvious to you that it would be better for someone other than an avowed supporter of THF to do this? Especially since the arbitration was set to go against him and his interpretation of COI? It's pretty obvious to me. There is no shortage of admins who would not mind reining David back a bit, it would be trivially easy to recruit one if your own approach were less self-evidently adversarial. You've also made a Real Big Deal about people "redacting" from dispute resolution where they are even slightly involved, yet you are pursuing this one-man crusade. It's not productive. Guy (Help!) 13:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, do your research Guy. Four admins and an arbitrator already warned him, and he told them he'd stop. Then he turned around and added a 17-year-old derogatory soundbite to the article on Ted's organization, and edit warred with me and another editor to keep it. Yes, there is a grudge bearer here - and that grudge-bearer is editing the BLP articles of the grudgee. ATren (talk) 13:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy, do you recall our discussion about Shankbone? I was and remain concerned about his editing behavior on two grounds; first, his continuing to make THF-related edits, and second, a tendency to edit war over any of his edits, whether content, photographs, or links to his wikinews interviews. In this case I agree with Atren that Shankbone is making questionable editorial judgements in regards to THF and projects THF has been associated with, and I am I think the fourth admin to ask Shankbone to refrain from making THF-related edits. He promised to stop editing THF's bio, but has not stopped making edits on THF-related subjects, and I think enough is enough. Thatcher131 14:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I am making no Ted Frank-related edits and if you look at my history you will see. This argument over a piece of history with ATren pre-dated any agreement to not edit biographical data about Ted Frank, of which I think consisted almost solely of two edits that, had I not been the one to make them, would have been fine. This is always the problem with focusing on the editor and not the edits. Thatcher, you are so focused on the editor, as is ATren, that you fail to even see that the edits I made are only controversial because I made them. That goes against the entire idea behind this project, which is we are here to share information, not play political battles and put a Scarlet Letter over a particular editor. Additionally, the only finding against me was that I used THF's name too often. I have no "tendency" to edit war over anything. In fact, on Talk:Stephen Colbert I ran a poll to let the editors decide the new Stephen Colbert. Thatcher, ATren's behavior has not only been directed at me, but many others on this project. You go championing his behavior, you are only going to be left with editors like him, because editors like me have better things to do with our time than work on a project where proven troublemakers are defended, and those of us who have given countless and highly valuable contributions are see as the real problem. --David Shankbone 15:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher: Yes, I recall our conversation. You would be a good person to resolve the dispute. ATren is not a good person to resolve the dispute because his style and tactics are only inflaming it, and because he is clearly partisan in respect of THF, who he asserts had no conflict of interest (a view which was, I think, pretty much rejected before the arbitration became moot). It's also likely that Shankbone will accept you as an honest broker, whereas there is no chance he'll accept ATren as such. Guy (Help!) 15:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Guy has an attack page directed at me - a page that Shankbone apparently read to get "material" on me. So he's far from a neutral source on my behavior. ATren (talk) 15:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that you always have these problems ATren? Why is everyone else the problem? Have you not noticed that almost all of your edits are arguments? That's just a fact. --David Shankbone 15:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Nonsense. I've had extended disputes with precicely 3 editors in 2 years. You've had that many in two months, and you don't see me waving your unrelated conflicts around here. My concern is and always has been your relentless pursuit of Ted Frank, which you seem to have no intention of stopping. Let's be clear here: I have no COI on Ted Frank. I don't know him and don't support his politics. I generally defended him in the arbcom case, but that's the extent of my involvement with him. You on the other hand, were his main antagonist here, and now that he's gone you insist on editing any article related to him, adding negative associations. So, why am I being asked to cease instead of you? ATren (talk) 15:43, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Your edit history does not lie. You add virtually no content to this Project and spend all your time on Talk pages arguing. --David Shankbone 15:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Because I resolve my disputes on talk, not by edit warring in mainspace. I am generally very conservative about what I add to mainspace, especially when in a dispute - where I prefer discussion to mainspace edit warring. That's why my talk page ratio is high. So why don't you cite specific examples of my supposed abuse rather than citing inconsequential statistics? ATren (talk) 15:58, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I've already cited a few of those examples above. The problem is you have an excuse for everything, never realizing that most of us are busy on here contributing and not arguing. For most editors, ATren, arguments are a tiny percentage of our work on here and most of what we do is uncontroversial. I am in the top 1,700 contributors as far as edits go to this site, and I am one of the top 50 downloaders on the Commons of images few people can obtain. That I am not engaged in more disputes is what stands out. Virtually all of your contributions revolve around disputes, and ones you insert yourself into and that didn't happen organically (i.e. you weren't contributing, you decided to take part in a battle). Perhaps you should focus more on article creation and expansion, instead of arguments. --David Shankbone 16:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

See below. ATren (talk) 16:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed all Ted Frank related articles from my watchlist. I stand by every statement in this dispute, but in the end it's not worth the trouble. David, do whatever you want, I will no longer be involved. ATren (talk) 16:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• This is wise. Now monitor them occasionally, and if you think there is a problem, then state it to the three or four neutral parties who have expressed reservations about David's editing. Guy (Help!) 16:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• ATren, the issue is not Ted Frank, it's the constant arguments and your pursuit of grudges. Declaring a "truce" in one belies my main issue with your edits and your personalizing disputes with User:William M. Connolley, User:Avidor, User:JzG, User:Raul654, User:Ossified, User:Dev920, et. al. Focus more on article creation and expansion and less on arguing ad nauseum. You have become a serial arguer, and that needs to stop. --David Shankbone 16:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

David, what part of "I will no longer be involved" is unclear to you? ATren (talk) 16:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

David, please save a permanent link to this thread (See the Complete diff and link guide for info on how to harvest a page section link). If ATren doesn't keep his word, it will be trivially easy for you to return here, present that permanent link, and a few diffs to show that the alleged (added) problem has resumed. - Jehochman 16:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC) (modified at 16:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC))

Thank you for your help. --David Shankbone 16:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Jehochman, just to clarify, which "problem" are you referring to? ATren (talk) 16:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I inserted the word alleged above. I take no position at this time whether there is an actual problem or not. If you avoid the contentious articles as you have pledged, the question is moot. - Jehochman 16:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible privacy issue

First, some background. The London Gazette recently re-vamped it's website, breaking all existing references to it as they've completely changed the url construction. I've been working my way through this list User:Rich Farmbrough/Article lists/Gazette of articles which contain London Gazette urls and converting them to use {{LondonGazette}} which should make it easier to deal with such changes in future. The latest article I updated, Bez was using the Gazette to reference the fact that the article subject was at one point declared bankrupt. I have updated the reference, but it then occured to me that since the notices (published by order of the court) list the full address of the article subject, this might be considered a privacy violation. I don't know whether this is actually a current address, and anyone could find the info via the website anyway, but obviously linking directly to it in a Misplaced Pages article gives it much wider currency, so I thought I would seek some wider input as to whether it is actually appropriate to use these references in these particular circumstances. David Underdown (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Not much we can do about that, I think. Guy (Help!) 15:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The address has been published in the London Gazette, which is officially a newspaper. Claiming that a living person has been made bankrupt is certainly a controversial claim per WP:BLP but the London Gazette is the ultimate reliable source for such matters. If it is reasonable to mention the bankruptcy (in other words, if it is significant in the life or career of the subject) then the source should be mentioned; and remember anyone reasonably familiar with the London Gazette will be able to search the full online archive and find it themselves. I can, though, see some circumstances in which the bankruptcy of a living person is not a significant matter and should be removed. Sam Blacketer (talk) 16:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

For what its worth, a celebrity bankruptcy is generally a notable event, especially as apparently winning the Big Brother television series took care of that problem for him. • Lawrence Cohen 16:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • If a court of law has ordered the address to be made public, can it now be considered a "privacy issue"? AKRadecki 16:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• The problem will come if the person has since discharged the bankruptcy, or if osme conviction is now spent under the Rehabilitaiton Of Offenders Act. Guy (Help!) 16:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• In a roundabout way, I'm curious how we should handle otherwise fine sources that also include private information that was ordered public--would the source be no longer acceptable for us after the fact? Or before? • Lawrence Cohen 16:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• The address isn't in the article. If it becomes a privacy issue, it is an issue for the site hosting the info, not every site linking to it. Mr.Z-man 05:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Still, I smell the possibility of a very intense OTRS ticket, with issues of this nature. I think I agree with that position, but it's something we should try and handle delicately. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Turd the Borg

I could use some help with Turd the Borg. He's disruptively adding cleanup tags to some video game featured articles, (example) but he mixes in helpful edits as well. He's been editing The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Seasons and Oracle of Ages, a featured article I actively maintain.

• Borg adds unwarranted game guide tag
• tag removed by another editor
• Borg responds by deleting the entire section
• I revert
• Borg tries a different, still incorrect tag to the same section
• After others remove that tag and make other changes, Borg adds a sentence with a Fact tag

I feel like he's trying to goad me into violating 3RR. I've left him a couple of notes on his talk page, and he responded by cutting and pasting a piece of an article onto my talk page. See also Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Video games#New user adding excessive cleanup tags in which another editor agrees that some of his edits are helpful, and other seem to make a WP:POINT. Another editor complains that Borg nominated an article for GA, despite it being an obvious quick fail due to numerous cleanup tags. Strange behavior for an editor who primarily adds cleanup tags. Any help would be appreciated. Pagrashtak 17:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Took a quick gander at some of their edits... the specific edits you've linked don't look so hot, as a group they seem passive-aggressive, at best. Of the other edits I've checked, though, most all have been helpful in some way or another, though (I'm not professing to have checked every edit). Is this an isolated mistake, or part of a larger pattern? – Luna Santin (talk) 18:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said above, some of his edits are helpful. Looking though his contributions, it appear he went through the list of video game featured articles adding cleanup tags and fact tags. For example, this is a bit of a stretch. Sure, the page uses "RPG", but the term role-playing game is introduced first. When viewed independently, it seems harmless or in good faith, but when taken in aggregate it is disruptive. Here's another example of a patently incorrect cleanup tag to a VG FA I helped with during the FAC, which I reverted. As I write this, the last seven edits Borg has made with the exception of my talk page, are to the seven articles I list on my user page as having created. While they are not of themselves necessarily bad edits (at least one is a notability tag with which I don't agree), it feels like he is doing this to spite me. Pagrashtak 18:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This edit is one that's sticking out in his contributions for me. I personally care not for Final Fantasy, but he's removed a heck of a lot of text, spread all sorts of tags through the article and then put up a notice for additional citations. The fact it already has 86 references (probably more before he gutted it), most liking off-site to places like IGN, GameSpot, and other reliable games journalism source, apparently means nothing to him. Not even an edit summary to explain his edits.-- Sabre (talk) 18:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, he just added this, which is a direct contradiction of his previous edit. I am not assuming good faith with this user. Pagrashtak 18:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Should be username blocked anyway. Guy (Help!) 18:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

  To quote Raul, "FAs are by definition the best Misplaced Pages has to offer. Therefore, any user adding a cleanup tag is by definition, wrong." Also support the username block. I'd do it myself if I weren't about to leave immediately for lunch. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 19:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Having said that (and not referring to these articles), anyone who has been reviewing FAs recently will know that many of them can get into a terrible state if they're not watched carefully. ELIMINATORJR 20:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Username-blocked by me. MaxSem 20:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Unblocked on user's request to allow a change of username. That's not an opinion on whether or not he should be (re-)blocked for conduct issues. ~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sandstein (talk • contribs) 14:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Karl Maier

After taking a look at Special:Contributions/Karl_Meier, almost all of Karl Maier's edits for the past 30 month (from October 19 to now) have basically been reverts, and most of them revert my edits.

What's more disturbing is that when Karl Maier reverts me he/she does not attempts to use the talk page to discuss reverts.

I would not have posted here, if Karl Maier had discussed the issue instead of removing my comments from his/her talk page. Clearly he/she is not interested in discussing the issue.

I request that Karl Maier be told to use talk pages to discuss reversions and changes.Bless sins (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Karl Meier has been instrumental in removing huge amounts of POV from contentious pages. He should be praised not censured or his efforts.Bakaman 20:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Karl was subject to a now expired ArbComm probation - but it is now expired. And I know of ArbComm cases where the committee has explicitly said that discussions in edit summaries while reverting is not sufficient discussion, the talk page also needs to be used. Karl is only editing about every other week, it will be very hard to actually have a conversation with him about anything. Is there anyone he is known to respect who can say "discuss, don't just revert?" GRBerry (talk) 21:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

An interesting case. 'Probation' seems to imply that the year ending August 2007 was some kind of test period; we are left with the possibility that once that test period expired the user's returned to disruptive editing. It seems that there's a lacuna in the way that decision was handed down.

Perhaps a request for clarification, asking whether once KM's period has expired, he automatically has his slate 'wiped clean', as it were, might be in order. It certainly seems to imply that the original slap on the wrist was insufficient.

(In terms of KM receiving some sympathy in terms of removing huge amounts of POV, well, he does; he might also introduce a great deal. We can't be certain one way or another unless talk page conversation is available.) Relata refero (talk) 22:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

When probation has expired, it has expired. The only way to reinstate it is by application to the Arbitration Committee, by email or by posting to the "Requests for clarification" section of the main RFAR page. Thatcher131 01:43, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If he is editing every other week then there really isn't a problem with his editing. He is not a drive-by vandal that detracts from the pedia. He is a knowledgeable user editing in his field of interest that is loath to take abuse lying down. There is no reason to penalize an eager editor such as him. Also I see in his recent contributions that a number of them have been discussion style edits, so bless sins contentions of "revert-warrior" and such must be invalidated when viewing this situation.Bakaman 01:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I;ve just looked through KM's contribs, and without reference to the merits of your argument that the complainant has similar problems, KM appears the very definition of "drive-by reverter." Since that was what he was censured for in the original case, I think a request for clarification is in order. Relata refero (talk) 06:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Bless sins, you really shouldn't talk; most of your contributions are basicly reverts of my edits, often for unjustified or poorly justified reasons and strict censorship, even when sources say otherwise, yet you revert away anyway. Just look at your contribs. It is almost a complete revrt log of my edits. It's not like you don't make heavily POV edits, then revert when people try to neutralize them. Yahel Guhan 01:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• As above, Bless sins is a POV warrior diametrically opposed to Karl Meier and this should be taken into account when s/he makes such reports. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If Bless Sins has similar trouble with drive-by reverting, he should definitely be similarly censured. But we'll get nowhere by judging people by the quality of their opposition; so I think its irrelevant at this point.Relata refero (talk) 10:23, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protection of this page

I see that this noticeboard was semi-protected by Durova; is it appropriate for this page to still be semi-protected? At a glance, it seems there are some threads about IPs above, not sure how they're supposed to have any input. Videmus Omnia 19:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

All right; I've unprotected it. We were getting a spate of block-evading TOR nodes last night. Let's hope that's ended. Regards, Durova 19:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks...since they appeared to be have been posting about a block that you were involved in, you probably shouldn't have protected the page yourself - it gives the appearance of using your admin tools in a dispute. Videmus Omnia 19:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The protection log does show numerous times the page has been semi-protected in the past, although usually for short periods in response to pretty intense disruption. I'm not checking, for sure, but I think seven hours is a bit on the long side, historically -- new users do sometimes need to participate here quite legitimately, after all. Likewise it'd be quite a pain to dig through and see how bad whatever disruption that led to the protection was, but for now it seems Videmus has a point (of unknown size and mass), best to avoid any appearance of foul play, when we can. Plenty of admins watching this page, after all. Something we can all keep in mind, I suppose. – Luna Santin (talk) 06:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Calton blocked

Calton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) was blocked for 24 hours by User:CBDunkerson in late September for persistent incivility and taunting. The block did not stop him from continuing to be uncivil, to taunt people, and to escalate every conflict he enters into, so I have re-placed the block, this time for a week.

I first left him a cautionary message on his incivility during a recent revert war he was involved in. He responded predictably, showing his usual disregard for the civility policy.

The purpose of this block is not punitive, of course, but preventative. In an ideal world, this would get the message across that his way of interacting with other users is not acceptable to the Misplaced Pages community. Here's hoping...

rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 20:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Endorse  Avec nat | Wikipédia Prends Des Forces.  20:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Skeptical You have not documented incivility. The one diff you provide isn't worthy of a one week block. Other users have made serious allegations against ATren. Consider the reliability of the source of the complaint. I suggest you either lift the block or provide proper evidence. - Jehochman 20:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC) (modified 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC))

This block isn't about ATren. I do not care about whether Calton is right or wrong in a particular content dispute, only that he blows up every dispute he enters with his incivility. Also, I'm pretty sure I don't need to go digging for diffs when reporting my block to AN/I in such an obvious situation - this isn't an ArbCom case. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 20:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not familiar with Calton's editing style. Is it too much to ask for three or four diffs that show actual incivility? - Jehochman 20:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Calton has a long, long history of aggressive, sarcastic, taunting behaviour, generally contributing to an unpleasant editing environment, and has shown himself unwilling to stop. ElinorD (talk) 20:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Need evidence. I am familiar with Calton's editing style, so won't be surprised if you can present some recent diffs showing some pretty impressive incivility. But please do present those diffs. This is not nice, but blocking for a week seems a bit harsh, and this is not usually considered a "I'm going to block you for a week" kind of warning. --AnonEMouse 20:55, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay. Here are some diffs:

Also, if you read Calton's user page, you'll see he's already had loads of warnings. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 21:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Yeah, that's Calton. :-(. ATren was being much nicer than that. Some of those do go back to last month, and a week still seems a bit harsh (maybe suggest a downgrade to 2 days?), but I'm not going to object as such. --AnonEMouse 21:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This is by no means the first time that Calton has introduced an error in an article through reverting another editor without sufficient care and investigation, nor is it the first time that he has responded to correction with stubborn contempt. A couple of months ago I had an unpleasant experience with him after he erroneously reverted JackOfOz, accused Jack of vandalism, and then attacked Jack. See User talk:Calton#2007; User talk:JackofOz/Archive6#2007; a nasty attack.

As it says right on User:Calton, he sees his work on Misplaced Pages as "mopping up after the dishonest, incompetent, and fanatical". Unfortunately, I think he sometimes misjudges the line between the fanatical POV-pusher and the innocent miscommunication. His abrasive style then inflames a minor misunderstanding into a major conflagration. I don't know if this particular incident is the most egregious or the most deserving of an incivility block, but against the background of Calton's history of consistent rudeness, it's not surprising that someone was inclined to block. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 21:07, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, anybody who thinks that their work on Misplaced Pages depends on them determining other people to be "dishonest, incompetent and fanatical" shouldn't be here. That's beyond the pale, and flies directly in the face of "comment on the content, not the contributor". Our work here involves cleaning up bad edits, but to say those edits were made by bad people is way out of line. Those unable to distinguish between a person's behavior on one hand, and their motivations and moral qualities on the other hand, should leave. -GTBacchus 22:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Good evidence, now. A week is within your discretion. Consider lifting earlier if the user shows a willingness to make adjustements. - Jehochman 21:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
• As is usual on Misplaced Pages, we give no quarter to any long-time user who does the encyclopedia's dirty work, demanding the utmost in perfection from them while assuming good faith beyond all sense of reason of those who they must clean up after. I have reduced the block to 48 hours - in my opinion, one week is a grossly over-long penalty. His last block was more than a month ago. Give him a chance to cool down for a day and return. FCYTravis (talk) 21:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Excuse me, but any changes to a block should have been discussed here before you changed it. The 1 week was within the blocking sysop's discretion. Secondly, blocks are not punitive as you have put it, they are preventive, and the 1 week block was justified as this user, according to the evidence listed here, has a long history of incivility.  Avec nat | Wikipédia Prends Des Forces.  21:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Good job discussing it beforehand, we all know who well fucking around with blocks without discussion goes. John Reaves 21:48, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

If there is an administrator who wants to reimpose the week, they should feel free to do so - I'm certainly not going to engage in a wheel war. FCYTravis (talk) 21:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It's generally considered wheel-warring to undo another admin action without discussion. Putting it back is just worse wheel warring. Since I'm not a fan of escalation, though, I'm letting you know that I'm okay with your shortening of the block, and we'll see where it gets us. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 22:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• FCYTravis, you aren't doing him any favors you know. If he doesn't accept what people are telling him and change it'll only be the worse later on. Calton does alot of good work, but he's one of the most consistently incivil users we have and has a tendency to attack even the admins who warn him about it. Sooner or later the hole he has dug for himself will be too deep for anyone else to get him out of it. --CBD 21:52, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

  So give him a couple days to think about it. Seven days is not warranted here, IMO. If his objectionable behavior continues, another, longer block can be issued. FCYTravis (talk) 21:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

  As long as people are willing to actually follow through on that, that's okay. But I'm rather convinced he will shrug off two days the same way he shrugged off one. Of course, I'm always willing to be surprised. Let's see if the Calton who returns in two days is reasonable and civil. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 22:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• If I were willing to clean up the sort of shit Calton does, instead of rolling my eyes, leaving, and finding something less contentious to work on as is my wont, I doubt whether I'd be even half as civil as he is. If the users howling for his head above can maintain a straight face while saying they'd act differently, I'd be astounded. —Cryptic 22:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

  What kind of "shit" does Calton clean up? I've worked on some pretty controversial articles, and I've never found it necessary to stoop to any kind of ad hominem attack, or if I have done so, I was wrong to do so. I'm not "howling" for Calton's head (ew), but I can say with a straight face that there's no situation on Misplaced Pages that would force me to be uncivil in the way that Calton habitually is. -GTBacchus 22:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

  The ends do not justify the means. If one can not perform certain kinds of work while remaining civil, either take a break or find some other work to perform. --ElKevbo (talk) 22:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Ludicrous. --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 22:47, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but I find this highly problematic. Calton's response was no more or less arcastic than Rspeer's "warning". I suggest that Rspeer unblock Calton. Rspeer, if you want to warn and then issue long blocks for civility, it might be better not to do it with sarcasm: ATren's "rhetorical questions" that you're complaining about appear to have been attempts at resolving a revert war civilly -- something you should try sometime. I think this was a case for telling both parties to step back and take a deep breath, certainly not for a one week block for an editor with over ten thousand mainspace edits and three years' contributions. Guy (Help!) 00:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

  Guy, I don't buy your argument. Tens of thousands of edits do not buy you a free pass to ignore any policy you want, and getting away with it for multiple years certainly doesn't.

  Also, I didn't intend any sarcasm in my comment -- I really do want Calton to try being civil. I meant exactly what I said. But even if I somehow said something wrong in there, that doesn't affect what I blocked Calton for: his persistent incivility after being warned repeatedly and blocked for it. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 00:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The above evidence of Calton's incivility strongly suggests to me that a one-week block is not even enough. Someone with that much personal animosity is not a credit to this project, no matter how many edits he has. Besides, how many of these edits are simply him bickering with and insulting other editors? -CinnamonGirl (talk) 01:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, many of his mainspace edits are useful cleanup of articles. But when editors disagree with his cleanup -- whether they are right or not, and often they are not -- that's when he starts hurling the insults. And there's no reason we should have to tolerate this, because there are many Wikipedians who know how to clean up articles and be civil at the same time. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 02:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Endorse - NeutralHomer 10:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• I endorse the block. Hopefully, it'll demonstrate to Calton that his current approach isn't acceptable. I understand that he does good work from time to time, but if he isn't able to make difficult edits without descending into gross incivility, then maybe he should be working on something else. -Hit bull, win steak 16:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Legality of the Vietnam War

Can someone please userfy this deleted page? Thanks, Stayman Apple (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain what you mean by "userfy this deleted page".  Avec nat | Wikipédia Prends Des Forces.  21:06, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Nat, userfy this page meant to move it from the main article space into userspace, as it was obviously created in the Mainspace in error. Regards, —Qst 21:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a copy on user's talk page. He was the only contributor. GRBerry (talk) 21:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

User:81.159.77.176 (and previous)

This user has been causing trouble on British Rail Mark 3. Under several previous IP addresses, the user used terminology in the article that is considered non-preferred, mainly because it is obsolete and also ambiguous. Myself and another anon tried to discuss this on the talk page, and got bombarded with huge breezeblocks of text telling Why They Were Right And Everyone Else Is Wrong. Any attempt to restore sanity in the article was reverted and any attempt on the talk page was met initially with more of Why They Were Right And Everyone Else Is Wrong, and later with a heavy dose of You Are All Wrong So There. Having failed to get any sense from them, I made it clear that it would probably be a good idea to stop. This was ignored, and the user again introduced poor terminology, making sure to wikilink every occurrence of the word "second" in the article, which I consider to be disruptive, since not only is the term unhelpful, to keep it in there would have required someone to clean up the mess of redundant links. At this point, I dropped a warning on their talk page, which was met by the user taking the You Are All Wrong So There onto my talk page. Having read the rather rude and insulting comments, I removed them from the page, only for this user to add them back (repeatedly). This stopped only after dropping a level 4 on their talk page, while they continued on the article itself. I have stopped for now, since I'm entirely sure which edits counted for WP:3RR and which didn't, and in any case since the other user insists on having their version on top (F5 syndrome at its best) I couldn't even revert myself when I realized.

Can someone deal with this user please? 90.203.45.244 (talk) 21:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• With the greatest of respect, I have hardly been rude to anyone during any edits, or discussions, and have been more than happy to cite sources for any edits that have occured. Any changes I have made are POV changes, and having originally advised the user 90.203.45.244 that unless they could cite sources, they should form a concensus before changing the article. They have failed to do this on the talk page, only further editing of the article. The user 90.203.45.244 claims than another user has agreed with his POV, however, the editing history of both 85.92.190.81 and 90.203.45.244 seem to be very similar. This is, I believe is the same user. As the user 90.203.45.244 has never cited any sources, nor formed a concensus on the talk page, I believe that they are responsible for the vandalism. 81.159.77.176 (talk) 21:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• To avoid any more edit warring, I have semi-protected the article for a day. For what it's worth though, from a quick view of the edits User:81.159.77.176 is technically correct in his assertions - as built the "S" in the MkIII designation codes does refer to 'Second'. There was no Standard Class in the 1970's. Linked to this, British Rail coach designations is actually misleading and I have edited it accordingly. (Note that the wikilinks on 'Second' do point towards Second class, so it's not that misleading). ELIMINATORJR 23:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

So who did it?

hi this is Tasmin Jahan. I would like to know who entered my name on this Misplaced Pages site in the very beginning. It took me by surprise that I was mentioned within the Tonbridge article. So who actually entered my name? Tasmin Jahan was thrown up through a search engine. It was not entered by anyone I know. When I saw the question mark in brackets regarding my year of birth I thought I was being helpful by entering it but instead it was completely omitted because - this makes me laugh - you guys think I am that sad to think I should be shown in this article. I had no clue this had happened in the first place. My name appears all over the place but to be entered into an encyclopaedia page was an honour until you decided to accuse me of a big head?! Make up your mind!!!!!!!!!! Whoever put me there had their own reasons. Misplaced Pages admin people you are very strange. It definitely was not me who entered Tasmin Jahan in the very beginning. How sad is that? Could you not track your records and see who indeed took time out to put my name there? I thought I had to open an account with you so that I could give you my year of birth. So I did but maybe I went the wrong way about it. This is all new to me. I already have websites for my work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tasmincaramba (talk • contribs) 22:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You did. See WP:COI. Mathsci (talk) 22:11, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

And it was removed as non-notable about nine hours later. Meanwhile, Google picked up the intermediate version. That's timing! Diff See also here: Re--Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:18, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

It was added by 86.151.64.57 (talk · contribs) at http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Tonbridge&diff=167721468&oldid=167717622 _→AzaToth 22:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous IP 86.129.115.165 (talk · contribs) attempted to create an article on Tasmin Jahan which was speedily deleted. --Mathsci (talk) 22:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You didn't just add the date of birth, you re-added the entire entry, and then you did it again three days later. Not exactly sure what you are so indignant about. — Satori Son 22:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Enough, probably. WP:DNFT?--Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 22:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes; marked as resolved. — Satori Son 00:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

is Efrat illegal?

User Ynhockey is vandalising page about israeli settlement Efrat. According to UN Security council, Geneva Conventions, International Criminal Court Rome, The European Union and others ALL israeli settlement in the West Bank are ILLEGAL. Please don't vandalise wikipedia! Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cernochvole (talk • contribs) 22:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you're on the wrong page. Dispute resolution is down the hall. Corvus cornix (talk) 23:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The original poster made a personal attack on the user on here (calling the edits "vandalism") and on their user page (calling the user "crazy"). The user was removing an utterly improper edit from an anonymous editor that defined Efrat in the lead sentence as an "illegal" Israeli settlement. If anyone wants to know about the status and controversies over Israeli settlements they can follow the links and read up on them. To tag each article about a settlement to call it "illegal" in the lead sentence would be absurd. Yet the single purpose IP editor has done nothing but go up to 3RR calling that settlement "illegal" in its main article, and in two others. The poster's account is also single purpose at this point, to complain about it. That kind of contentious WP:POV editing has no place on Misplaced Pages. Wikidemo (talk) 23:05, 19 November 2007 (UTC)‎

I think I linked to dispute resolution above. Corvus cornix (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you did too. But a misguided dispute resolution that dies on the vine isn't going to accomplish anything more than a misguided posting here that is quickly rebuffed. The underlying issue is a content dispute that was handled in a way that lead to behavior violations and counter-accusations of the same (aren't they all?) What's the proper way for cautioning someone that their bringing an incident up here is misguided and/or their accusations improper? Wikidemo (talk) 00:07, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User: 66.204.9.140 extensive vandalism, blocked in the past.

This user has been persistently vandalising Repetitive strain injury, Binary code and other pages. They've been blocked in the past, and warned again since last being blocked. Can we block them again possibly? --cfp (talk) 23:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Vandalism straight off a 6-month schoolblock. Re-blocked anon only for 6 months. Next time please take this to Administrator intervention against vandalism as you will probably get a quicker response there. ELIMINATORJR 00:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Racial slur and offensive insults

• 61.202.37.174 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

Please spare a moment to see this. . I horribly felt offended by this anon's abusive language like that. And also see this. . It is so weird that the editor shows such the strong hatred against Korea at the discussion of whether the categories of Korean fruits and Japanese citrus are to be deleted or not. I want a same rule applied on the similar categories, but the editor utters the offensive racial slur like that. I want admins to warn the editor for his abusive language. I believe he is using an anon to look like third person. --Appletrees (talk) 23:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the "racial slurs" or "offensive insults" unless you think stating there are no fruits native exclusively to Korea is a "racial slur", or stating that all humans came from Africa is an "offensive insult" --Haemo (talk) 23:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Please don't use administrator's notebook for personal vendetta. This does not require immediate admin attention. For incivility use an applicable template and proceed along WP:DR. — Sebastian 23:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I see. The sentence like Koreans are not even an ethnic people and are from Africa are offensive. The theory of humankind from Africa is one of theories regarding the origin of humankind and not an accepted assumption in East Asia. I also think that the repetitive emphasized sentences on "Korean has zero native fruit" are offensive. However, you guys say so, I could not be kind to the editor.--Appletrees (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

(aec with Apple, whose reply appears consistent with my supposition) To be clear, though, in this instance no templated warning need be given since, as Haemo correctly observes, there is plainly no "offensive insult" or "racial slur" (one might, I suppose, were he to strain, appreciate a bit of incivility, but certainly nothing about the acollegial effect of which to be concerned) in the diffs proffered; the comments appear to be nothing more than attempts at analogy. I don't, OTOH, know that it's appropriate to term Appletrees's raising the issue here an attempt at furthering a "personal vendetta"; where one, acting in good faith, as, in the absence of anything to suggest otherwise, Appletrees appears here to be, believes, rightly or wrongly, that another editor has been grossly incivil in such a fashion as to impair collaboration, the former may, one imagines, raise the issue with the latter and, if concerns linger, with others in the community. One may surely suggest that there is nothing at all here that should warrant administrative intervention and that Apple's first step ought to have been to address the issue with the anon in order that he might better understand what the anon meant, and so it is quite appropriate to mark this as {{resolved}}, but I'm not at all sure that it is appropriate to suggest that Appletrees erred perniciously in bringing the issue to AN/I or that his post here was some attempt at furthering a vendetta or garnering the upper hand on an editor with whom he has been in dispute; he appears to have felt genuinely aggrieved, even if for reasons that might be viewed as bizarre. Joe 23:42, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to follow the advice from the admins even though the result is not satisfied. I thought this page is somewhat good for avoiding further conflicts than directly going to visit his/her talk page. That is my ignorance, so I learn that. However, you're not certainly in the position to speak of what editors have to do in the scornful way. Your lengthy and perniciouss wording are neither plausible nor convincing at all to me. Besides, I don't like to be called the abbreviated name at first sight by unfamiliar people like you. People don't generally call a nickname when they firstly meet because that is a common etiquette. You appear to be rude and err. I truly relieved that Jahiegel is not an admin. I would take the advice from admins though. --00:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Hoserjoe

Is deleting entire swaths of the Elvis article without so much as a little chat about it on the talk page. Irishguy has already questioned it on the talk, as have other editors. I have messaged him but he will not reply and continues this destructive series of edits, which remove entirely sourced content. Please stop him. Jeffpw (talk) 23:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I've protected the article for 1 week, or until y'all can work something out. --Haemo (talk) 23:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I have answered on the Talk Page within an hour, with good reasons for the cleanup, so kindly stop inferring that I'm not replying! Hoserjoe (talk) 01:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And, come to think of it, these are not destructive edits; this is called cleaning up - cleaning up a huge mess of disparaging opininion and disgusting gossip regarding off-topic characters in Elvis' life. Entirely appropriate. If anything, it's a content dispute. Hoserjoe (talk) 01:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I need help

I am trying to understand Why certain info in Texas Transportation Museum is bieing called "unencyclopedic". After the Below content was added the info was deleted again.

Article cleanup Several editors have removed the unencyclopedic opening hours, ticket prices etc. info from the article per WP:NOT#DIR and WP:IINFO (As explained in the policy introduction, merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia.). Museum of Modern Art is a good example of an article to emulate in building a good museum article. feydey 06:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

In fact only two people have commented or edited the article for the purpose of deleting "unencyclopedic" info User:Feydey And User:Jeffrey O. Gustafson.

I deleted the Ticket prices. On the others I belive it is a mater of opinion because nither of the WPs you sited say anything more than: "merely being true, or even verifiable, does not automatically make something suitable for inclusion in the encyclopedia.".

Amreatsf4620 07:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Texas_Transportation_Museum"

So again I would like some admin help with this.

Thanks, John "Amreatsf4620 (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)"

This is a content dispute, and you should seek dispute resolution. This does not require admin attention; indeed, admins are not in any way special in this respect. --Haemo (talk) 23:33, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

You know it wouldn't have hurt you just to point out to this user, that they are in fact mistaken, the things they are adding (opening times/schedules) aren't disputable, they are clear policy violations, per NOT#DIR. Just because this board isn't meant for dispute resolution, doesn't mean you can't correct a mistaken belief, which is always a lot more concrete coming from an admin--Jac16888 (talk) 03:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

153.18.232.132's constant vandalism

153.18.232.132 (talk · contribs) has been vandalizing articles. He/She should be blocked as I have warned him several times.--Jerry 23:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

In the future, submit such report of vandalism to WP:AIV instead. --Haemo (talk) 23:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, thanks.--Jerry 23:35, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Suspected User:Studru sockpuppeteering

User:Studru appears to be engaged on creating pages on some fantasy Alaskan village called Stuntville and its mayor R.S. Drury, partly using labour supplied by suspiciously convienient (and incredibly similarly named...) User:StueDrue and the great User:R.S. Drury himself. Comment from an experienced admin, please? Pyrope 01:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no joy in Stuntville -- mighty Studru has struck out. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

TougHHead indefinitely blocked

I've blocked TougHHead (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for being an unproductive editor, being immature on Misplaced Pages pages, and overall nonsensical edits in the last few weeks. He has been blocked twice before for harrassment and other issues. He has this odd obsession with quotes that he was warned about several times (like , , ). Further nonsense includes the last day's worth of edits to his user talk page after he was blocked. See , , , . I post this here for review. He was warned by several people that he was on thin ice. When he first arrived here, it was suggested he be indefinitely blocked rather than given the first 24 hour block. Some people, too, question whether the other 24 issued about 20 hours ago would be sufficient. I believe it is not and no amount of block will ever be sufficient except an indefinite one. Metros (talk) 03:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Metros. And, due to his continued ranting and nonsense on his talk page, I've now protected that, as well. AKRadecki 05:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I was ready to do it myself, seeing how this editor responded to my (generously short) 24 hr block... I support the indef and the protection. — Scientizzle 17:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Editor refuses to add required fair use rationales and makes personal attacks

This person keeps removing the no fair use rationale template from images that are lacking ratiuonales and do not conform to fair use guidelines. Then they make personal attacks. Would someone correct this person, please? Nobody of Consequence (talk) 03:04, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there a particular reason you haven't talked to them about it yourself? The user blanks their talk page regularly, but I didn't see any recent evidence of you bringing this to the user's attention first, before you bring it to ANI. You also didn't tell them you were discussing them here, as is directed at the top of this page. Natalie (talk) 04:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

This diff is indicative of a long string of vandalism by this user. I'd report him to AIV, but I can't reproduce the username. Could someone block him and mass-revert his edits? MSJapan (talk) 04:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I've indef blocked the user, and all their edits have been reverted. GlassCobra 05:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Does copy and paste not work for you, MSJapan? That's what I always do with these usernames. Natalie (talk) 15:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi I got legalled

Per Talk:Gary_Miliefsky, after the SPA creator of the page disputed a prod, then deleted a AfD, was corrected gently, and then deleted it again, I now have:

Should you wish to edit or change this page, please send your formal request to John Ottenberg, Esq., Corporate Counsel and Litigation, NetClarity, Inc. (his contact info is at http://www.odllp.com/). Also, please provide a legal address for correspondences and if notices must be served.

Note that this remains an active AfD. I'm not touching this page with a 10 ft. pole, though.

--- tqbf 04:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll take this one. Hesperian 04:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

ClueBot Problems

Whenever I edit anything (add facts etc.) ClueBot reverses it automatically! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ugg600 (talk • contribs) 04:55, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It may help if you weren't vandalizing our articles. Please stop or you will be blocked. GlassCobra 05:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Collateral-damage-friendly block message

See old version and new version. We get a lot of avoidable problems with newbie-biting and reader-biting from text that seems to tell the casual editor they are a violator of the rules; this is Luna's better text, per MediaWiki talk:Blockedtext#Revamp_of_header.3F. This should help avoid inadvertently offending people who've just hit an "edit" link, and one hopes turn their ire toward the actual vandal - David Gerard (talk) 08:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

USER:Arnabdas

• User:Arnabdas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

After receiving multiple NPOV warnings on his talk page regarding repeatedly making POV edits (see some examples here, here, here, here) this user has now applied warning templates to my page in complete bad faith (diffs here and here). Several other editors have noted that this was wholly improper and in bad faith (examples here and here). I have issued a third NPOV warning for continued POV-pushing, and I have instructed the editor that additional POV pushing and/or bad-faith actions will result in a formal RFC on his conduct. I thought it would be best if I kept ANI up on the situation before it goes to all that (as suggested by other editors). Thanks. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And what administrative action needs to be taken here? east.718 at 09:12, November 20, 2007

I'm not sure if/that any is needed at all. I figured it'd be wise to go ahead and mention it for a few reasons... one, I'm not an administrator and don't presume to know what actions are appropriate. Two, I recognize that I'm not infallable, and despite other editors' support (referenced above) I figured it's always wiser to ask for help or review from ANI than it is to barrel forward without seeking counsel. Finally, if my interpretation is correct and my actions thus far are proper then perhaps words from an uninvolved administrator would help quell this before it has to go to RFC. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 09:25, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you want WP:WQA. Relata refero (talk) 10:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:HI, HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY?

Before his recent indefinite block HI, HOW ARE YOU DOING TODAY? (talk · contribs) went on an patrolling orgy, patrolling at least one article that should not have been patrolled. I hope there is some way you can revert this damage. --teb728 (talk) 09:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I assume you mean Krista S (deleted) Deepalaya (not delete, as of this writing). Survives my first glance, at least. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Krista S is the other article I had in mind. I see there were several others that have also been deleted. I left the message thinking maybe you had a way of reverting his patrols. But I guess it works just as well to go down the log and look at the articles. --teb728 (talk) 10:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There may be some way, I haven't really poked around the new(ish) patrol feature, just yet. In this case, seems easier to just run down the list. – Luna Santin (talk) 11:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Unapproved bot

User:AxwynBot. It doesn't look like it's an approved bot, it doesn't look like JoanneB has edited recently, and its edits are a bit odd. I went ahead an blocked it. I'm not missing something glaringly obvious, am I? -- RG 10:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeesh, that doesn't look like anybody up to any good. Since JoanneB didn't tag it as their bot, I don't think we can rely on that as an identifier. Somebody with a grudge, maybe? Clearly they have at least some experience on wiki(s). – Luna Santin (talk) 10:15, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

JoanneB has confirmed that the bot is not hers. . This isn't the first time something like this has happened. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 18:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm rather surprised that my name is still known and used by those vandals, I think I'll simply take it as a 'compliment'. Thanks to all who acted upon this and the previous occurences! Rule of thumb: if any bot claims to be me or acting on my behalf, it isn't. --JoanneB 18:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:E104421 and VartanM

Edit warring on multiple articles

Shusha

• Reverts the article to a previous contested version with edit summary:(added a new section on cultural life.)
• reverts again with edit summary:(rv.: please, do not remove the sourced information. the new section on cultural life is informative. you deleted the cited refereces in other sections, too.)
• When I added just the sourced stuff he was adding he reverts again

Turko-Persian tradition O talkpage posts to go along with the 3 reverts on this article.

• Reverts the article claiming that the Ip address is User:Tajik
• When asked to use the talkpage to explain his edit he reverts again
• When explained that the information his adding is already there he reverts again

Now I understand that he did not violate the 3RR, but his being disruptive by adding controversial material and refusing to understand why the information was removed in the first place. We have been discussing the Shusha article for about a week now. 3 users are currently being checkusered. Most of the users editing the article are limited to 1RR per Arbcom restrictions. His actions and uncompromisable reverts are just adding fuel to the fire and are not helpful at all. --VartanM (talk) 10:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I should alsow mention that he was previously(8 months ago) indef blocked for edit warring by Dmcdevit VartanM (talk) 11:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • For the Shusha article, i provided the direct quotations into the talk page . For the Turko-Persian tradition article, the necessary explanation done in the edit summary , since the removed paragraph is not related with the article, more important, the cited references of that paragraph is not related neither with the article nor with the paragraph at all. They are totally irrelevant. These are also explained in the edit summary. On the other hand, i reverted User:Tajik, per Dmcdevit's comments: and .

Note: See Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/E104421-Tajik

• VartanM, on the other hand, deleted Encyclopædia Britannica's Qajar Dynasty and Azerbaijan references . I reverted just because of the deletion of cited references as i pointed out in the edit summary. I'm not interested in his conflicts with other users, but the deletion of cited references do not seem to be an acceptable manner. In addition, i did my first edit to the article in my wiki-life today. At first, i was planning to create a new article on Sileh rug, for this reason, i checked the Shusha article, since ... Those sileh from the Caucasus may have been woven in the vicinity of Shusha (from "sileh rug", Encyclopædia Britannica, Academic Online Edition, 2007. That's it. I'm so surprised for the impolite behaviour of VartanM who even accused me of disruption after my first edit to the article. I'm wondering how he describes the deletion of cited references. He does not warned me about the previous issues, or his conflicts with other users, but just accused me of disruption here in the WP:AN/I. He could post a message to my talk page on his objections. If he would do so, i would discuss/re-consider my edits as well. That would be more simple than carring the case here. Actually, that's the procedure adviced at the top of the WP:AN/I page: "Before posting a grievance about a user here, it is advised that you take it up with them on their user talk page." Anyways, i'm ready to answer if more explanation is needed. Regards. E104421 (talk) 11:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Revert of POV edits by E104421 was perfectly justified. He only removed deletion of sourced info from the article and addition of controversial claims by a group of users. It is no more disruptive than all the edit warring that was done by certain users (VartanM included) to keep the POV claims in the article. Grandmaster (talk) 11:52, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, VartanM provides inaccurate info that editors involved in edit warring in that article are restricted by parole. Most of them are not, i.e. VartanM, Verjakette and Bassenius, and they are clearly taking advantage of that. Grandmaster (talk) 11:58, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Is this the sort of issue that should be handled at dispute resolution? What admin action is being requested here - synopsis version this time, please. Natalie (talk) 15:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The IP address E104421 reverted as banned user Tajik is - surprise - banned user Tajik. He's certainly been edit-warring, and will be blocked if he keeps it up, but reverting banned users doesn't count. Picaroon (t)

is this some sort of bot?

sorry if this is the wrong place to post this. i saw a single line removed from an article on my watchlist that seemed sort of odd for someone to show up and delete, so i looked at the users contributions. seems like this "person"(?) was removing single lines from a bunch of different articles. i dont know what to make of it. maybe it is a human (the note left with each change varies slightly), but i just thought i should let someone know about it. ... thanks, Jon Lon Sito (talk) 12:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Just vandalism. Reverted and blocked for a while. ELIMINATORJR 12:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Page semi-protected again

I see that WJBscribe (talk · contribs) has been edit-warring on this board with IPs (apparently over criticism of a protection action of his regarding Durova's ArbCom candidacy question page) and has semi-protected this noticeboard, shutting down all IPs from posting here. Once again, this gives the appearance of using admin tools in a dispute. Rather than continually edit-warring and protecting the page, wouldn't it better to answer the concern (if it has any basis) or simply ignore it (if it doesn't)? Videmus Omnia 15:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I disagree strongly. Any troll who seeks to disrupt Misplaced Pages can attack the administrator who seeks to prevent disruption. We do not provide trolls a blanket excuse that they are in dispute with the administrators who seek to limit their disruption. There is no dispute between WJBscribe and this IP. - Jehochman 15:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

And removing comments from an editor using IP sockpuppets to circumvent a block is not "edit-warring". That is a loaded characterization. — Satori Son 15:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

We don't remove contributions of blocked editors, only banned editors. But I haven't seen any information to indicate this person is either, other than the unspecified softblock below. Videmus Omnia 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It is common practice to revert the sockpuppet edits of a blocked editor while the block is in effect. Otherwise, our blocks would be useless. — Satori Son 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting phrasing of the situation. Block evasion using open proxies is unacceptable. Full stop. I have pointed out two means of redress for the person in question - the unblock mailing list, or ArbCom. They have not chosen to take up either of those options, instead they are making use of open proxies to disrupt Misplaced Pages. As a consequence I have had to protect this board from IP editing for a while. My fault of course, not that of the person using IPs to evade a block and troll various pages... WjBscribe 15:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know much about this particular blocked user - who are they, and what type of block are they evading? Anyway, wouldn't it be better to simply answer their question on this board and end the drama, rather than lock out all of the "good" IPs who may have a need to post here? Videmus Omnia 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually few IPs post here. But if we accepted your suggestion, how many posts should we allow a blocked user to make using proxies - 1, 2, 3... ? At what point should I draw the line? You will see that I have discussed the matters with this IP on my talkpage. I have blocked 12 separate proxies used by this person today alone. Given our policies against block evasion and use of proxies - is that acceptable. We have a mailing list where a large number of admins deal with unblock requests. We have an elected Arbitration Committee where the misconduct of administrators can be investigated. I actually had some concerns about the original block here - but this is not the way for the user to have their block investigated. WjBscribe 15:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What was this person's blocked user account? Videmus Omnia 15:36, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

They have not revealed their account - it is not blocked. Their complaint is about the softblock of the (non-proxy) IP they presently edit from - 24.19.33.82 (talk · contribs). WjBscribe 15:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If the IP is not a proxy, why is softblocked? Vandalism? Who blocked it? Videmus Omnia 15:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Erm, you could check its block log for that information... But if you're very interested, some archived discussion of the matter can be found here. WjBscribe 15:48, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I have now unprotected this page and the IP's talkpage as a goodwill gesture following discussion with several involved parties. I hope to be able to discuss a mutually acceptable compromise. WjBscribe 15:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I support this. - Jehochman 16:00, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks - WJBscribe, you should probably also unprotect Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2007/Candidate statements/Durova/Questions for the candidate. Anon editors have an equal right to ask questions, so far as I know, and by shutting that off you are likely causing damage to Durova's candidacy by calling into question the fairness/equality of the process re anon vs. registered accounts. Videmus Omnia 16:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not intend that protection to last forever. It will be lifted in due course. WjBscribe 16:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The thread you linked is about as clear as mud, but it looks to me like we generated hours of drama because of a Durova block of an IP based on another sockpuppet "sleuthing" job. It appears (at least based on this commment by Jehochman, that the block was bogus to begin with. When the person is understandably irate about being blocked, their talk page is protected and they are accused of "disruption". Soon the accusation morphs into them being a "banned" editor whose complaints must be removed rather than answered. This could all be avoided by using some freaking common sense - don't block accounts that are not damaging the encyclopedia!. The initial block was apparently another blunder resulting from this dumb sockpuppet witchhunting, and the whole situation was made infinitely worse by trying to a) shut the person up and b) cover up the whole error. Just unblock the IP and leave them alone already, unless they damage the encyclopedia. And no, complaining about dumb admin mistakes and seeking redress for them is not "damage". Videmus Omnia 16:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Rush Limbaugh

Rush Limbaugh is under substantial editing from IP users with some degree of edit warring. Some makes sense, but the article is fairly unstable. I suggest semi-protection for a while. --Kevin Murray (talk) 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Copied to WP:RFPP; user notified on talk page. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 16:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

For once and all, please make it loud and clear.

1. How many days, weeks, months we should allow to provide reliable sources for article like Operation Hush which is not even tagged as unreferenced? 2. And if anybody can remove even SD, PROD tag, then what is the use of new page patrollers? Why should we waste time in placing tags like unreferenced, notability etc? One admin just advised me to take article to AFD. But here I saw that a new user who has no contributions at all voted to 'keep' it. Why should I waste time to take to AFD where anybody can vote using sockpuppets? Thanks. sharara 16:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Being unsourced is not a reason for speedy deletion. If an article remains unsourced for a significant amount of time, and especially if cleanup / PROD tags bring no improvement, the article should be submitted to AfD. Since AfD is not a vote, the closing admin will disregard spurious contributions. Sandstein (talk) 16:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the duration of 'significant amount of time'? And how would you know which article is unsourced if 'unreferenced, cleanup, PROD' tags are removed? Anybody can remove it. I can go on showing unsourced articles dating back to 2003 and even before it. Is it responsibility of new page patrollers and admin to search sources and add to the articles? Thanks.sharara 16:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ideally when someone creates an article, they would include sources. Obviously this doesn't always happen though. Any article that has no sources cited or relevant external links that verify the subject can be considered unsourced and probably should be tagged as such. If someone is removing "unsourced" or "cleanup" tags without actually addressing the problem or explaining the removal, I'd say you'd be fairly justified in adding them back. PROD is different; if someone removes it, that is it. At that point the article needs to go to Articles for Deletion if you still wish to pursue deletion. As for who's responsibility it is to source something, generally it is the creator's responsibility. Before simply nominating something for deletion though, it is always a good idea to do some due dilligence and look to see if it can be verified. If it can, contact the creator and request that they source their article, or just source it yourself. If it can't be sourced or notability can't be established, then deletion may be the correct next step.--Isotope23 17:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The question isn't so much "is it sourced" as "can it be sourced"? The article in questions appears to be on a verifiable subject. It may not be notable, and might be deleted at AFD, but it at least can be sourced (and I added a source to the article).--Isotope23 16:27, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello Sharara, you seem to have some confusion regarding the deletion process. Just keep in mind the following:

• Please do not reinstate a prod tag after a user has removed it from an article. If you still feel an article should be deleted, use the AfD process instead.
• Please do not issue vandalism warnings to users who remove prod tags. Prod removal is an acceptable Misplaced Pages procedure, and the author who removes a prod tag is not obligated to improve the article in any way. Again, once a prod tag has been removed, if you feel the article should be deleted, use the AfD process instead.
• Please do not place db (speedy deletion) tags in article with personal motivations, such as "the author has removed a prod tag", or "this article is unreferenced", or "the subject of this article is not notable". These are not valid speedy deletion criteria. For a list of acceptable speedy deletion criteria, see WP:CSD.
• Please note that AfD debates are not votes. This is a fundamental misconception that seems to make you want to avoid AfD at all costs, thereby resorting to inappropriate use of speedy and prod. If an AfD comment is recognised as spurious (for example, because it comes from a single-purpose account), it will just be ignored by a hopefully wise admin.

Thanks! --Nehwyn (talk) 16:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks and other types of incivility on talk page

EliasAlucard (talk · contribs)
EliasAlucard has posted many personal insults, uncivil comments (including swearing), has used all-caps (yelling), and sometimes made his signatures appear as if he had a different username (making it look like someone else was posting the comment). I posted a warning about personal attacks on his talk page quite awhile ago, but it has had no effect. He also seems to reject the whole basis of Misplaced Pages, which is presentng facts supported by reliable sources. Here are just a few recent examples (although the problem goes back much further:

1. Swearing and personal insults
2. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
3. Uncivil comment
4. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
5. Rejecting reliable references in favour of POV-pushing
6. Signing a different name, so it looks like someone else was agreeing
7. Unjustified personal insult
8. Uncivil comments signed under a different name
9. Uncivil comment
10. Uncivil comment and all-caps yelling (Note: EliasAlucard's comment is the lower one)

There are several more examples, which can be seen by viewing EliasAlucard's edit history. Also, just to clarify, I have not noticed other editors making similar uncivil comments or personal insults towards EliasAlucard. Their comments have been based on content, not the individual.Spylab (talk) 16:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Ignoring consensus

On United Kingdom there is the re-emergance of and edit war over the inclusion of the Ulster Banner on the Symbols section of the article. Consensus was reached last month to include the flag as the most appropriate symbol of Northern Ireland. A footnote explains the use of the flag.

Recently users have taken to removing it again. User:John who was one of the achitects of the consensus last time has asked me to report the incident here. I hope you can help. Biofoundationsoflanguage (talk) 16:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

This noticeboard is not designed to assist editors in content disputes. Please pursue dispute resolution if you cannot find common ground with fellow editors in that article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Morningside Clio (talk · contribs)

This user is involved in continuous heavy POV pushing on certain articles related to Israeli Palestinians, most notably Joseph Massad, Nadia Abu El Haj and Elias Chacour.

He uses weasel words and substantiation of biased statements, usually inserting them into Controversy sections of articles. In Joseph Massad for example, he uses direct quotes to substantiate claims of controversy, quoting blogs that call Massad "a bigoted nutcase" and "crackpot". These have been removed earlier but the user reinserts them shortly thereafter. The references provided to substantiate these quotes are mostly from sources that are not neutral on the Israel-Palestine issue (eg. here). References inserted by this user are never formatted properly, the user simply inserts the text of the link into the article. At times, such as revision 172643890 on Facts on the Ground: Archaeological Practice and Territorial Self-Fashioning in Israeli Society, these links are not accurate even if properly formatted. In addition, the Joseph Massad article is already tagged as having too many quotes for an encyclopedic article yet this user adds more quotes on most of his edits.

Another instance of what can be classified as POV is his repeated removal of a publication of the American pro-Israel neoconservative think tank Middle East Forum being placed after a link to the Middle East Quarterly in the Massad article, calling it inapropriate and highly political in the respective edit summaries. Yet, in Nadia Abu El Haj, after the name of Elia Zuriek, he inserts a sociologist who advocated boycotting all Israeli universities.

Trying to stay objective and neutral, I am of the opinion that his contributions are intended to promote a point of view rather that improve a particular Misplaced Pages article. A quick look at the formating and the aesthetic value of Joseph Massad, especially the Controversial views section, can attest to the disregard towards Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style in favour of expressing opinion. While the user is not guilty of explicit vandalism, it is becoming harder for other editors to contribute to any of the previously mentioned articles without getting involved in an edit/revert war with Morningside Clio.

P.S. I do realize the irony of criticizing somebody for not properly formating reference links in the same sentence in which I did not know how to link to a specific past revision. Thanks for understanding. SWik78 (talk) 18:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I left some notes in his talk page. Hopefully he will learn to be a useful contributor. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

User:StrengthOfNations and "friends"

Hey there. I'm itching to block Stayman Apple (talk · contribs) and Control Hazard (talk · contribs) as obvious sock/meatpuppets of StrengthOfNations (talk · contribs).

Stayman Apple has been editing a very unlikely set of articles in common with StrengthOfNations, and in order to bolster "support" for his position. (Health Ranger, History and use of instant-runoff voting in the United States, The Yakyuken Special as well as a number of talk pages).

Control Hazard is a recent SPA created to shore up the AfD of Health Ranger. Also, by some "strange" coincidence, intersects with StrengthOfNations in NTFS. Both socks are obviously familiar with WP process and terminology from the start, so are not newbies.

It's about as clear-cut as it gets so I don't believe it useful to add to the SSP backlog, but I did not want to act in the dark since I have been involved in the Health Ranger AfD. I haven't yet blocked the puppeteer, or his socks. — Coren  18:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

PalstineRemembered feels muzzled

Folks - back in August this year, the now discredited CSN board required me to find a mentor (I'd finally been trapped into the only offensive edit it's generally agreed I've ever made). I have such a mentor - the harassment of him started within 2 days, but he's now lasted a month without being driven off the way the three previous mentors were. (Details available if you've missed them). We've worked together very well (the only open issue is recent and nothing to do with Palestine).

However, there is someone else on my case insisting that he's my mentor (as well? instead?) and attempting to tell me there is still something wrong with my edits. His demand of me runs like this: "PR, as your mentor, I've been a little concerned about your recent editing. I see a lot of edit warring in your contributions (here's just a few: ) and many of your edits seem to be pushing your own point of view regarding Ariel Sharon. Can I please remind you that edits must be neutral point of view, and revert warring to push your point of view is clearly desruptive."

If this editor is finding something problematical, then he's going an odd way about drawing anyones attention to it, because each of the actions of mine he's challenged is handily covered by my summaries. I'd be the first edit-warrior in history to clarify everything carefully in both Talk and summary - and I don't edit-war anyway. As one of my mentor-harassers noted in the interesting tirades I documented here: "... PR has not made any "breaches of 2RR" (perhaps one)".

So what is going on with this interesting collection of interesting accusations - or is this just the final move to muzzle me?

I should add that it's possible I've crossed some red-line, perhaps it's wrong of me to quote Arial Sharon as if he were a notorious punisher of civilian populations (I've not actually said as much about him ever, but you know what I mean). Perhaps Misplaced Pages is simply not allowed to document what is/was happening to the Palestinians and I'll have to begrudgingly accept it. Perhaps this single purpose account was always doomed to be muzzled, and I should be grateful to the community for allowing me to make just a few corrections and improvements to articles. PR 19:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

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