Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:34, 20 November 2007

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Hello, Blackworm, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:

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I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions. Again, welcome!  RJFJR 21:22, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

RS

Deep apologies if I sounded perhaps just a little teacherly--I was explaining for benefit of others. DGG 05:03, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Not at all! I just felt I needed to respond since you asked "...if you like." Blackworm 06:08, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Cricumcision

You may help make the Topic neutral, but at great cost of time. You may then go on to other topics and interests, but return to find agreed improvements have been deleted. I won most of the same arguments you recently presented, fixed the text, went on to other works, and came back to find all the work here reverted or worse.

Jakew and Avi have strong personal reasons to devote extreme efforts to bias the Topic.

I know Avi has strong personal feelings about this topic but he does work hard at being balanced and assumes good faith WP:AGF in all his edits. Jtpaladin 22:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Please note that the "Policies of various natl. med. assoc." section was originally introduced by Jakew who wanted to highlight one sentence: Canada

• The Fetus and Newborn Committee of the Canadian Paediatric Society posted Circumcision: Information for Parents in November of 2004, and Neonatal circumcision revisited statements in 1996, undergoing revision as of 2004 in which, due to the evenly balanced reasons pro and con, they do not recommend routine circumcision.

Totally lost is the fact that the 1996 statement has not been revised, and the 2004 statement to parents says:

• Circumcision is a “non-therapeutic” procedure, which means it is not medically necessary. Parents who decide to circumcise their newborns often do so for religious, social or cultural reasons. To help make the decision about circumcision, parents should have information about risks and benefits. It is helpful to speak with your baby’s doctor. After reviewing the scientific evidence for and against circumcision, the CPS does not recommend routine circumcision for newborn boys. Many paediatricians no longer perform circumcisions.”

May I suggest that you replace the Sandbox version http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Circumcision%5Csandbox with the current dishonest (in several specific respects) version. Call on other editors to review the current POV version and also potentially install the Sandbox version.TipPt 18:03, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

The actual phrase the CPS uses in the source is "benefits and harms," not "reasons pro and con." The former introduces into the article the idea, absent at the moment, that circumcision has "harms" and so I leave it to you to determine why it was rephrased. Regardless, your attitude on the talk page is not helpful to your position. If there's one thing I learned in my short time here, it's that being "right" doesn't matter on Misplaced Pages. Having good sources and paraphrasing them correctly and accurately doesn't matter on Misplaced Pages. Having three editors and two admins who share your point of view and who boldly revert any edits contrary to your point of view is what's necessary and important. Then your point of view becomes THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH, in the most fundamental meaning of the phrase our society has. If you Google "circumcision," the first link is to the Misplaced Pages article. Who controls this article controls the truth about circumcision, period. I am sure this is a fact not lost on those who currently own the article. If you really care, start talking sense and being civil on the talk page -- as it is your presence only serves to disrupt discussion and give your opponents an excuse to deride, harass, and abuse all who may agree with you. I realize you've been doing this for a long time; maybe it's time for a break. (And by the way, it's spelled "cabal," not "cabel." If you're going to make that accusation at least spell it right.) Blackworm 01:52, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Blackworm, please check out the latest proposed change for the AAP's position on circumcision in the Talk page. Let me know what you think. Thank you. Best Regards. Jtpaladin 22:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Comments on cervical cancer section

Thank you for your comments on my proposed addition to the Male Circumcision article. As you will see from the discussion page, I disagree with your remarks about the worth of my addition. However, I'm too much of a Noob to reinstate my addition. Please consider my reply and think about producing a version that is better written and sourced. I do think that the cervical cancer issue should be included (especially since it Male Circumcision is included in the article on Cervical Cancer), even if it is only to rebutt the claim.SimonHolzman 22:13, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Simon. I have commented on the Talk page. There are several other open issues on that article which I would like to see closed before tackling this subject, but as I said on the Talk page, I suspect this issue will take precedence over those because of its nature. Blackworm 03:14, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Circumcision

You are quite right - letters to the editor in a peer-reviewed journal are not themselves peer-reviewed and should not be presented as such. I'm not sure what has been breached in this case, but the result is certainly unencyclopaedic. PalestineRemembered 20:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify, no one claimed the letters were peer-reviewed per se, but several editors (including two administrators active on the page) claimed that the mere fact of publication in a peer-reviewed journal (in this case, Pediatrics) gave weight to the comments contained in the letters. One of the administrators said that it was "not a credible line of argument" and urged me to abandon it. I disagreed, and posted regarding the debate on the Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources. Everyone or almost everyone there agreed with me. Regardless, because of the nature of the circumcision article, the disputed claims are still in the article.

One of the editors of the article, Jakew, writes letters to online journals criticizing any negative view of circumcision. Then, when the online journal publishes his letter, it is cited in the circumcision article as a reliable source. This kind of manipulation of the truth is disconcerting to me, but supported by the people controlling the circumcision article, which include at least two Misplaced Pages administrators. Blackworm 01:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Does he really do that? How do you know that to be true? Also, are you open to chatting by email on various Wiki articles? I can post my email if so. Please let me know. Jtpaladin 22:21, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

No, I am not kidding. Check this reference in the article: Waskett, Jake H. (June 20, 2005). Apocrine glands in inner prepuce doubtful. Electronic letters. BMJ Publishing Group Ltd. Retrieved on 2006-07-09. I am open to chatting by email, but I have to say I don't really see the advantage over the talk pages. The talk pages have the extra advantage of allowing third parties to contribute. Are there advantages to email that I am overlooking? Blackworm 07:09, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Just a bit of strategizing that couldn't be done on the Talk pages. I'll post my email if you are OK with doing some strategizing and seeing where we can work together on various articles. Jtpaladin 14:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I am wary of what seems like backroom strategizing, mainly because the tag-teaming circumcision advocates who own the circumcision article engage in it. I also wish to remain semi-anonymous, because public, voiced opposition to circumcision can have dire consequences in one's real life. It invites ridicule, derision, accusations of bigotry, and even threats. I'd rather keep contributing in the manner I've been doing for the time being. Should this change, I'll contact you directly. Thanks though, and sorry. Blackworm 03:28, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Just as long as you keep contributing, Blackworm. Censorship must not be allowed to triumph.

Edwardsville 12:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Michael J. Fox page --flag edit

Hi, I posted this on the MJF talk page a earlier today, but thought you might not get back there so I thought I would C&P my reply here as well. . .(feel free to delete at anytime)

"Not really a problem, and thanks for leaving a note. Sometimes the flag icon can cause problems, but as I stated before, one flag, the current flag, of Canada is fine (with me at least). Sometimes other flags have been added (province flag, older Canadian flag (in use at time of birth)) resulting in "flag bloat". At least one time a flag has been added on this page, resulting in the (I'm assuming here) inadvertent removal of actual information. This problem is not restricted to just this page either as this archived discussion indicates." R. Baley 23:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Your message at Talk:Circumcision

You said "Jayjg: Please refrain from violating Misplaced Pages policy and making personal attacks. Please review the policy and understand that you need to address the content, not the editor. Your position as an administrator makes this call all the more relevant. Your repeated, constant personal attacks and pro-circumcision zealotry are now reaching dangerous proportions. Please cease and desist. Blackworm 08:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)"

Re the first, second, third and last sentence: Well done. This sort of reminder of the policies is needed more often. Re the fourth sentence: I'd suggest striking it out. --Coppertwig 21:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It's funny, because I was considering doing just that. Your message convinced me that it's the right choice. Thanks. Blackworm 07:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for considering my suggestion with an open mind! Actually, I've been thinking I should have suggested deleting rather than striking out. I think Misplaced Pages policies are not clear on which is better, and that if the other person has not yet replied, then deleting may be better, while if they reply and their reply would not be in context if the earlier comment were modified, then striking out may be better. Deleting might be criticized. I'm not sure if it makes much difference, anyway. You're showing an ability to take back some of your words, which is the sort of detachment and fairness which Misplaced Pages needs more of. --Coppertwig 14:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind comments. I don't like the idea of deleting volatile comments. I prefer to avoid claims of dishonesty, and show others that mistakes are made and can be corrected. Ultimately, though, I've pretty much lost faith that pointing out policy to certain people accomplishes anything. Jayjg is a Misplaced Pages administrator, has been for several years, and knows Misplaced Pages policy verbatim -- freely and frequently giving stern warnings to others. He just does not believe Misplaced Pages policy applies to himself, and has essentially said as much. One more warning from me not to make personal attacks is not going to change his modus operandi. Blackworm 21:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Re this edit at Talk:Circumcision: Please talk about article content, not about editors, and remember the "keep a cool head" message at the top of the page. Please also help other editors keep a cool head by avoiding saying things about other editors. Please avoid saying things like "the pro-circumcision authors" or "authors controlling this article". Instead, talk in positive terms about what the article should say and what fair processes should be used to decide what it says. Please avoid saying the opposite of what you mean, as in "Fork away all that nasty "medical" stuff -- except how great circumcision is for AIDS, of course;"; it is confusing, requiring more time to read and understand your message, and tends to generate negative emotions in the reader. Please write another message, making the same good points about article content, but not framing them within comments about editors. --Coppertwig 17:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Re your comment above: If someone continues to break rules after receiving repeated warnings, there are ways to influence them such as asking to have them blocked from editing. Even if giving them the warnings does not influence them, a record that they have been warned can influence those deciding whether to block them. For that and other reasons (not least of which is that a person might at any moment start actually listening to the warnings) I believe it's useful to give people warnings. I believe your comment above violates WP:NPA. Please do not put comments like that on your talk page or anywhere else on Misplaced Pages (except as part of accepted procedures, e.g. asking to have someone blocked, etc.) --Coppertwig 17:46, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Coppertwig, I respect you and what you are trying to accomplish. Out of respect for you, I will tone down the cynical talk. I'm sorry if I made your task more difficult. I hope you do better in trying to restore a little balance in that article. I'd go further in suggesting approaches, but taking a good-faith approach seems futile to me at the moment. Another reason I should simply say what I had to say and leave for a while. Blackworm 22:34, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Please, please, please don't leave Blackworm. What you are doing is so very important. The truth needs to get out there. Don't get discouraged!

Edwardsville 12:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Blackworm, you might not have noticed this part of a message from me at Talk:Circumcision where I asked you to clarify a comment you had made about a POV-fork. Your clarification would be appreciated. "...Blackworm, it's not clear to me what proposed action exactly you would consider to be a POV-fork. How do you (and others) feel about this particular proposal? If you consider it a POV-fork, please explain exactly why." (In the section "Article too long?".)

Thanks for your kind words. Here, have a nice cup of tea. --Coppertwig 21:47, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparently I received the cup of tea too late. I did miss your message at Talk:Circ; thank you for posting again. I will try to respond by tomorrow. Blackworm 03:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Please help! Urgent before it's too late

Please help me contribute to this page http://en.wikipedia.org/List_of_French_Americans Add what you know, help formatting, make as many as possible please. This user Mad Jack (User:Jack O'Lantern)is deleting most of our adds, thinking he knows better, he's still 20. Acadian-Cajun-Louisiana love, let's help each other. Thank a lot, your help is much appreciated. -Gus Abdelkweli 20:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Civility

Edits such as this one do not help anyone in attempting to advance the project. Please review wiki's policies on civility, personal attacks, and etiquette in order that you may continue to gainfully contribute to the encyclopædia. Thank you. -- Avi 05:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

It is clear to anyone following the discussion on Talk:Circumcision and its associated article that attempts to discuss the content of the article in a civil manner are pointless. A group of four or five vehemently pro-circumcision editors, including administrators, of which I include you, Avi, just endlessly confirm or deny the legitimacy of any content added or removed from the article based on whether it enhances or detracts from a pro-circumcision point of view, making no valid arguments. You routinely take turns reverting in order to avoid 3RR. When you have no valid reason to revert, you claim a lack of "consensus," which really simply means that the four or five pro-circumcision editors are opposed to the change. No attempt is made to objectively look at sources, to summarize in a balanced manner, or to present an opposing point of view (other than to detract it by making it appear limited, or a minority opinion). Thus, anyone outside your group attempting to edit the page becomes irate, exposes the fraud, and thus becomes subject to administrative threats like yours above. I've seen this cycle at least once before with another editor. I will possibly be reprimanded just like the others, and your power and control over the article (and thus the truth) will continue. As a group, you use the rules when you see fit and ignore them when you see fit. It has to stop. Blackworm 06:10, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

That's one interpretation, Blackworm. But browsing through a few of your contributions, I found the following...

• In first comment at Talk:, you propose describing circumcision in the article as an "invasive mutilation procedure."
• "The massive campaign to find a reason to cut up men's penises in still running in full force since the time in the late 1800's when circumcision was billed as the answer to masturbation. We were fooled then, and are being fooled now."
• "...the entire article, presenting circumcision as a normal, legitimate procedure violates WP:SOAP."
• "The definition of "forced circumcision" is not given, and since it could be argued that neonatal circumcision is "forced circumcision," the fact that forced circumcision is relegated to its tiny corner omitting mentioning mention of neonatal circumcision seems to be POV-pushing. In essence, by omitting neonatal circumcision from "forced circumcision," Misplaced Pages is claiming that neonatal circumcisions are not forced upon the infant."
• "Anti-circumcision is not a fringe, nor is it anti-Semitic. It is simply a disagreement with the idea that one should cut a healthy baby boy's penis up into a bloody mess, causing him immediate and future pain, and diminished sexual pleasure later in life. Show the average person a video of circumcision and they will be appalled and disgusted enough to oppose it (which is why a video of circumcision will never be allowed in this article)."
• "Statements about circumcision which are freed from the stigma of offending those who circumcise for religious reasons, are the most fair, balanced, and in a medical context, accurate statements."

Jakew 13:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

As Jake took the time to point out, your comments have been, in the main, more vehement, more divisive, and more inflammatory than those of who you have a philosophical disagreement. Please, if you would like to continue contributing gainfully to the project, endeavor to do so ina spirit of coridality and respect. The project cannot function otherwise, and that is the reason we have enforceable rules to help maintain a smoothly running system. Thank you. -- Avi 15:44, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, Jakew is another member of your group, and here he is tag-teaming with Avi, probably due to a request by Avi. I will not pull out quotes showing where I am accused by an administrator of anti-Semitism because I oppose elective circumcision. I will not pull out quotes of the multiple personal attacks of which I have been a victim. I will not pull out quotes of the illogical, rambling arguments which inevitably boil down to "you have no consensus" (read: "we simply don't like it") after all attempts to logically argue your points fail. There is no atmosphere of respect, Avi, it's an atmosphere of arrogant abuse of power, and contempt for anyone with a different point of view (with administrators calling editors "anti-circumcision zealots" and implying anti-Semitism). How can I not be in complete contempt of that environment, especially when comments like that are met with deafening silence from the likes of you? You say you hate incivility and personal attacks, but when a member of your group does it, you look the other way. Everything you do, everything you say to an editor, your reactions to the editor, your attitude toward an editor, revolve around that editor's will to preserve all pro-circumcision information and remove all anti-circumcision information. You do not encourage cordiality and respect when you simply ignore any point anyone else makes and insist on your way (and get it) in every single discussion, right or wrong. If those are the best quotes you can muster up to point out incivility, I suggest you try again. The last three points especially, I stand behind 100%. If you can't detach yourself from the subject enough to look at it objectively, that's your problem. In the past, I've backed off, I've apologized when discussed grew too heated, I've marked discussions as "resolved" where I could not make my point in a valid way, I've conceded arguments. I have never seen any single one of you do any of that. You have no reason to be apologetic for personal attacks, to recognize any of your policy violations much less admit them or apologize for them, or to allow any material you do not like into the article, because you have 100% control over it, with Misplaced Pages administrator support. Any oligarchy is contrary to Misplaced Pages policy, and your attacking me on my talk page after my accurate description of the fraud you have been carrying out for months and years on the circumcision page is simply an attempt to obfuscate the fact that YOU,, NOT ME are in violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Notify the other members of the group (do you guys have an e-mail list? that would make it easy), have them comment here too, that would make the circle complete.

It's much easier to get rid of me by attacking me on my talk page, than to deal with the fact that I understand what you're doing and am intelligent enough to describe the exact mechanism you employ to maintain full editorial control over a Misplaced Pages article. If you disagree with my assessment, then prove it to me. Show me where any of you have removed any pro-circumcision information because the source was invalid. You simply do not do it. You do not seem interested in the quality of the article. If I had to guess, your group seems most interested in hanging around calling people "anti-circumcision zealots" and anti-Semitic and removing any potential threats to your control of the article before they can grow in numbers enough to form a viable threat to your monopoly on information. Blackworm 22:18, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I've struck out "NOT ME" above because clearly I am in violation of it by not continuing the charade. I didn't want to say anything further on this since I thought my point had been made, and also out of respect for Coppertwig who has taken an interest in attempting what I attempted months ago -- a civil and productive discussion and compromise. I've said what needed to be said and what has been said by others. Change your ways. Be fair. Apply policy despite editorial content or personal views. You have taught me these rules. When I see you ignore them, I can only be dumbfounded and I can only hold you in contempt. Blackworm 22:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, your diatribe exposes you. Improper accusations, lack of good faith, and paranoic ramblings, in my perhaps limited experience, are usually the responses of people whose arguments lack the strength of validity or consensus. It is rather shameful on your part, sorry to say, to accuse people of "tag-teaming". Nowhere do you find myself accusing you, TipPt, Nokilli, Edwardville, and other like-minded people of "tag-teaming." Perhaps my assumption of good faith on your part was misfounded; your above editorial seems to make that so. Consensus and or NPOV, unlike a common miscopnception, does not require brainless lobotomiozed responses to every suggestion; rather, it requires discourse. Unfortunately, it seems that your response to civil discussion is to pull out the same cabal-based arguments that is the fodder of many groups of editors who find themselves in the minority. "Of course there is a concerted effort to defy me," the logic goes, "I'M RIGHT, THEY must be involved in a conspiracy." Then, and this I find bizzare, you are bringing in the spectre of anti-Semitism. Is this Godwin's law revised? Were you accused of anti-semitism? Please point it out to me. However, in light of a lack of evidence, it appears your attempt to poison the well and derail the matter of personal attacks and ad hominem statements was somewhat distasteful, to say the least. I think, and perhaps I am biased, that the Circumcision page has bent over backwards to ensure that every statement is sourced, and that it can be read in such a way as to not demonstrate a skew towards either direction. Misplaced Pages is neither a soapbox nor a vehicle for influence, and when people attempt to use it as such, it needs to be defended vehemently, or the project will lose all credibility. Yes, I know that is what you are claiming happens now, but I am relatively comfortable in the knowledge that people without a specific "axe to grind" or a specific aim to push disagree with you. Further, your very own words above now demonstrate, at least to me, the difficulty you seem to have with the concept of the true definition of neutral point of view, combined with a distinct lack of respect for your fellow editors. I am unfortunately forced to remind you, together with myself and every other editor in the project, that personal attacks, incivility, and lack of the assumption of good faith in the absence of contravening evidence are impediments to the project, and such impediments can be prevented to protect the project as a whole. I'm sorry you feel the way you do, but the method you choose to express it and the crusade that I am afraid you are choosing to embark upon (and I hope that I am mistaken) will only end badly for all involved, and will not help the project or any one of its articles. Thank you, and I hope that we can continue to engage in communication and dialogue that is both mutually beneficial, and beneficial to Misplaced Pages as a whole. -- Avi 00:16, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, but no. You are repeating the same accusations about me that I have made toward you. At least I have the nerve to talk openly about the situation. Your sad refusal to recognize that your "civil discussion" is nothing more than intimidation, illogic, and disrespect disguised as civility does not surprise me. As for evidence of the accusation of anti-Semitism, I will reproduce it here:

• As a disinterested reader, it seems to me that there is FAR too much misinformation from the anti-circumcision fringe. It comes off as anti-Semitism and as immature ranting. --Charlene 08:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You make Charlene's point perfectly. Jayjg (talk) 11:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You may read the full text at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Circumcision/Archive_29 -- if you can find anything anti-Semitic about my response, please point it out to me. Otherwise, accept that when someone is falsely accused of anti-Semitism by a Misplaced Pages administrator (in this case Jayjg), it is a violation of Misplaced Pages policy, creating an environment where civil discourse has stopped. Once that line has been crossed, and with your (and Jakew's) repeated, tacit support for the position of the administrator who has come to your side in countless "discussions," indicate to me that all pretense of assumptions of good faith are out the window. The above is only one example; there are others. Your supposedly rescinding your assumption of good faith toward me is no different from me rescinding mine toward you, and for the same reasons. It only requires us to dig a little deeper, in the archives, the diffs, the histories, and the user pages (in the case of Jakew), to see why the assumption isn't merited. I chose to explicitly rescind my assumption of good faith, as a sign of my disdain for the two-faced, passive aggressive, one-sided, and Misplaced Pages policy-violating style with which you and your like-minded friends administer the circumcision article. Others have done the same. I repeat to you my final advice: Change your ways. Be fair. Apply policy despite editorial content or personal views. You have taught me these rules. When I see you ignore them, I can only be dumbfounded and I can only hold you in contempt. Blackworm 05:49, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

You are doing great Blackworm. Don't let yourself be bullied into silence by would-be censors. The truth needs to get out there. Please keep up your work on the article.

Edwardsville 12:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• "I notice Jakew has not argued my point about this directly -- he has done exactly what I said he would. Obfuscate, deny, stall, "discuss.""

I suggest that you review WP:AGF, WP:CIVIL, and WP:NPA. In particular, note that WP:NPA states "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Misplaced Pages. Comment on content, not on the contributor." Jakew 10:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes Jake. Now tell me, why don't you scold Avi for saying, "Sadly, your diatribe exposes you"? Is it because you agree with him? Why don't you scold Jayjg for implying I'm anti-Semitic? Is it because you agree with him? Is it because you see his administrative power as protecting your admitted quest to rid the circumcision article of any anti-circumcision POV? You are a hypocrite. Blackworm 01:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

"Sadly, your diatribe exposes you…" was a response to statements including:

• "…arrogant abuses of power…"
• "Everything you do, everything you say to an editor, your reactions to the editor, your attitude toward an editor, revolve around that editor's will to preserve all pro-circumcision information and remove all anti-circumcision information."
• "If I had to guess, your group seems most interested in hanging around calling people "anti-circumcision zealots" and anti-Semitic and removing any potential threats to your control of the article before they can grow in numbers enough to form a viable threat to your monopoly on information."
• "When I see you ignore them, I can only be dumbfounded and I can only hold you in contempt."

Alas. -- Avi 02:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

PS, as an aside, I believe it was I who found the Van Howe, Svoboda et al citation. I've stopped recently, but there was a time I went through every citation in the article, bot pro and con, checked it, ffound original sources when I could, and updated the templates. Your presence in this article is somewhat recent, so I understand how you could mistakenly believe that my edits are purely one way or the other. -- Avi 02:31, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

I have only seen you add pro-circumcision material and remove anti-circumcision material. Why don't you want to discuss your friend Jayjg's statements about me, Avi? Why do you ask for evidence that I was accused of anti-Semitism, ruminate at length about how awful it is that I would bring something like that up without evidence, then, when I present the evidence, change the subject? Why do you remain silent when Jayjg makes personal attacks? Have you posted to Jayjg's talk page encouraging him not to make libelous personal attacks? Do you support Jakew's writing letters to journals criticizing medical studies that he sees as casting circumcision in a negative light, and then having the letters referenced in our encyclopedia? Try answering some of the hard questions for a change. Blackworm 02:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Responses:

1. Read the article history.
2. "my friend" Jayjg? I'm curious, why do you feel that we are "friends"? Of course, you would not be stereotyping, so I'm somewhat at a loss for your decision as to the relative level of gregariousness that we share.
3. I will look into the claim you have posted re: Anti-semitism.
4. I could post on Jay's page. There are plenty others who do already . Where is the libelous accusation, by-the-by?
5. Support or not is a moot point. Information that is published in peer reviewed journals is usually considered a valid source for wikipedia. Jake is not engaging in original research but is quoting a reliable source. If Van Howe turns out to be a wikipedian who has edited on this page, are we going to remove all of his papers? That is rediculous. If you get yourself published in a peer-reviewed journal such as "The Lancet" etc. then that letter will be a valid addition to wikipedia. Good Luck, and send me the link/article when you're published.

These, and similar, questions HAVE been discussed over the past 18 months or so, thats why we have talk archives. -- Avi 03:05, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Anti-semitism claim

In my initial understanding of Charlene's comments, she was not referring to any one editor in particular, but that she felt that the virulence and misrepresentation that she percieves coming from the "anti-circumcision" group may have its basis in anti-Semitism She was not referring directly to you, especially if you notice that her comments were aimed at Tip (and his ubiquitous mention of the "religious cabal").

I understand Jay's comments to be referring to "immature ranting." You YOURSELF understood Charlene's point as such, and I quote (emphasis added is my own):

Anti-circumcision is not a fringe, nor is it anti-Semitic. It is simply a disagreement with the idea that one should cut a healthy baby boy's penis up into a bloody mess, causing him immediate and future pain, and diminished sexual pleasure later in life. Show the average person a video of circumcision and they will be appalled and disgusted enough to oppose it (which is why a video of circumcision will never be allowed in this article). In our current female-dominated society, pointing this out is seen as whining; however enlightenment has always been slow to come to humanity. Speaking out against slavery was "immature ranting" only a hundred or two years ago, after all.

— Blackworm 09:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC), Talk:Circumcision/Archive 29

So, I do not believe Jay had in mind to call you an anti-semite. -- Avi 03:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

If he was only referring to "immature ranting," he would have been sensible and sensitive enough to specifically say so. Charlene's "point" was about immature ranting and anti-Semitism. You have no reason to assume what Jayjg "had in mind" unless you are not impartial. Which you aren't. As I said. And by the way, there's nothing in that paragraph which is immature, or "whining." "Whining" is an abusive term people use when they cannot argue points on their merits. It is an accusation which the bruised and vocal cannot defend against without seemingly making the accuser's point -- since the accused is already in suspicion of "whining," any defense is seen as confirmation of a frivolous and pathetic complaint by the weak minded. To have an administrator support, rather than condemn, an unfounded accusation of anti-Semitism against another editor (whoever it may be) is a vile breach of decorum, not to mention a direct violation of Misplaced Pages policy. A violation that not one of the three administrators on the page condemned, because it was directed at editors you believe have a POV with which you disagree. I strongly suspect that the passion that motivated all of you to "fix" the circumcision article in times long ago, when it may have been unbalanced toward the other POV, has now turned into an infantile game of power in which you defend your unbridled control of the article, and deny information contrary to what spurned your passion; even when you violate both the spirit and policy of Misplaced Pages. Let's let the facts speak for themselves. Blackworm 05:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's let the facts speak for themselves.

— Blackworm 05:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe that they do speak for themselves. Remember, one of our core policies is, in the absence of contravening evidence, to assume good faith. Being that we both agree that an accusation of anti-semitism, where it is not called for, is an egregious breach of decorum, what makes you assume that that is what Jay meant? -- Avi 05:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Person 1: "You are stupid and an anti-Semite, person 2."

Person 2: "...."

Person 3: "You make Person 1's point perfectly, person 2."

Person 3 is implying that Person 2 is an anti-Semite. Clear as day. And please answer my other questions. Blackworm 01:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you considered this, more likely, explanation:

Person 1: "You are exhibiting immature ranting"

Person 2:

Person 3: "You make Person 1's point perfectly, person 2."

Person 3 is implying that Person 2 is exhibiting immature behavior with his purposely crafted to disgust rant. Clear as day. And please answer my other questions, too.

-- Avi 02:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Except that's a misrepresentation of what Person 1 said. A better one would be "You are exhibiting immature ranting and anti-Semitism." Put that in your example, and it easily fails, even despite your emphasis on one part of what I said, and de-emphasis on the fact that nothing I said was anti-Semitic. Nothing I said illustrated that part of her supposed "point." In order to make her point "perfectly," as Jayjg said, I would also have to have expressed anti-Semitism, wouldn't I? Jayjg did not even respond to my indignant challenge to present any evidence that I am anti-Semitic. For shame. Blackworm 07:49, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Polarization

I would appreciate it if you would help reduce polarization at Talk:Circumcision. One way you can help is to avoid mentioning whether someone is (or you believe someone is) pro- or anti-circumcision. It's fine to talk about parts of the article being too pro- or too anti-, though. (Being careful not to imply that the editors who wrote them are.) I'd like to see you making more suggested edits. The list of "pain" references you provided is quite useful: I've just posted a proposed edit based on them collectively. If you could post more suggested wordings or references that would be helpful. Let's talk about the article on its talk page, not about editors. And please assume good faith. Someone who is trying to move the article in a certain direction may be trying to make it what appears to them to be neutral, even if to others it appears heavily biassed. That's because of course different people have different points of view. --Coppertwig 23:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your calmness, focus on article content, and productive contribution of useful information in this and other edits. Note that Jakew responded in a collaborative manner to that edit. --Coppertwig 22:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouting on my talk page.

I don't like the idea of gathering quotes from Jayjg and Avi and posting snippets in bold on their talk page. I could link to some here, but the evidence is all in the recent Archives of Talk:Circumcision -- where the real, potentially productive discussion supposedly is. Why read the meta-discussion when you can read the discussion and judge for yourself. There may be some trolls, as expressed on Jakew's talk page, but I don't think I'm one of them, at least I've tried not to be. But frustration and disdain are often expressed as cynicism. To be fair to you Avi, I am on board with the majority of your edits and reversions -- to a greater extent than those from Jakew and Jayjg. I have also been impressed by your ability to remain cool in the face of opposition. Blackworm 06:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As requested

As you requested, Blackworm, I'm replying here to your questions about Circumcision in the Bible.

Firstly, no, I do not take anything about the article - or indeed the Bible - personally. My concerns are with having the best encyclopaedia articles, whether you choose to believe that or not.

Although the word 'Bible' tends to refer (at least in Christian countries) to the Christian Bible, the meaning of the word can include other works important to other religions. As I have stated, however, I believe that a better title for the article would be circumcision in religion. Such a title would avoid ambiguity over whether the subject was Christian-specific. I see no particular reason why such an article should be specific to Christianity in preference to a wider context. Jakew 10:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply Jake. I don't see anything wrong with creating an article entitled "Circumcision in Religion," though I would personally prefer "Circumcision and Religion" in order to establish relevance for points of view which may come from outside organized religion. Personally, I'd rather see it addressed concisely in the Circumcision article, but if there are enough people, like you, willing to put the relevant and reliable information out there, I am not going to oppose it. I respect you, Jake, and if you're ever in Montreal I will gladly meet with you and have a drink. Cheers. Blackworm 08:01, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

"Circumcision and religion" is perhaps a better title, now that you mention it. My main area of interest is of course medical aspects. I am less interested in religion, and I don't have volumes of source material about it. I would therefore expect my role to be more of editing and helping enforce policy rather than being a primary contributor, but I am confident in the ability of other editors, and the overall process, to create a good article.

If ever I am in Montreal, I will doubtless be in touch. :-) Jakew 10:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

On pigs and good faith

You might want to rethink your comment at Talk:Circumcision. Bearing in mind the reference to the choice between cleaning ('hose it off') and removal, it should be fairly clear that in the analogy the pig was the edit, not the editor. Even if any doubt remains in your mind, it is important to assume good faith. Jakew 10:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Preposterous. Nandesuka's edit goes against every precept written at the top of the talk page. You defend Nandesuka instead of attacking because of his or her POV on circumcision, nothing else. (And I was kinda wondering when the fourth member of the group would show up.) Blackworm 21:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm disappointed, Blackworm. I thought we were beginning to develop some respect for each other. Now you accuse me of acting in bad faith. Jakew 21:53, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I've come to believe you're not consciously doing it. Blackworm 02:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I think your edit summary, " I agree with the policy violator", was uncalled-for. If someone violates a policy, it may be appropriate to point that out, but I think it is not appropriate to label the person a "policy violator". Also, it seems to me that at least two people have violated policies in actions directly related to that discussion. (Who among us has never violated a policy?) Also, it may be both more diplomatic and more saving of space on article talk pages to point out such violations on the user's talk page rather than the article talk page.

Regarding reducing polarization, I would also appreciate it if you would avoid saying things like "the same editors who ...", at least on the article talk page. Also, I'm still waiting for further clarification from you re the page shortening proposal -- I'm sorry that I still didn't understand your position when you came back to clarify. --Coppertwig 14:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You have not explained the logical difference between pointing out that someone violated a policy, and pointing out that they are a policy violator. I do not believe there is any. Everyone on the talk pages uses phrases like "the same editors who" and I am not going to stop. Nandesuka was the missing third administrator of the group, who I had not seen in a while, and is now back calling editors "pig covered in mud and feces." Sadly, that is how many people who are opposed to circumcision are viewed by circumcision advocates, and the pig covered in feces analogy has been applied directly to me in the past. It has religious symbolism, and it is part of an ideology of dehumanization. People opposed to circumcision are unclean, disgusting, barbaric -- exactly like the dictionary definition of "uncircumcised." If you want to reduce polarization, be vocal in opposition to such hateful characterizations, instead of defending them. Blackworm 21:39, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

There is no logical difference between pointing out that someone violated a policy and calling them a "policy violator". The difference is entirely emotional. Therefore, please always stick to the format that gets the required information across with the minumum negative emotional impact. Often applying a label or adjective to a person tends to have a negative emotional impact and is to be avoided.

It's not true that everyone on the talk pages uses phrases like "the same editors who". I don't, for one. In the last week or two I've noticed a number of messages from you doing things like mentioning categories of editors like that -- which tends to be polarizing. I haven't noticed anyone else doing anything like that meanwhile. Even if they do, that's no excuse.

I don't see how letting accusations stand that are, in my opinion, too strong, would reduce polarization. On the contrary, I think it's the other way around. Note my comments to Nandesuka. --Coppertwig 17:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Something you said

Re "...The validity of my arguments against your illogical and hypocritical objections to any material presenting any criticism of circumcision is not dependent on my opinion of you" at Talk:Circumcision: I'd suggest striking this part of your comment out. --Coppertwig 00:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your suggestion. I will not be striking it out. Jakew's objection to the one-line of material casting circumcision in a negative light was, "it is only relevant to one specific form of circumcision, not circumcision in general." He strongly supports the contested six-line paragraph referring to ritual circumcision in the "pain" section. He has proven over and over that he will pull out any random argument against any material casting circumcision negatively, yet the same arguments do not seem to hold any sway with him when they are used against material casting circumcision positively. He is a known and admitted circumcision advocate, and in light of that fact his behaviour is the definition of hypocrisy. I stand by my words. More important that his hypocrisy, however, is his illogic; and his inability to present any logical explanation for his continued heavy handed reversion of any and all material he sees as critical of circumcision, while strongly supporting even the most tenuous and fringe material which is supportive of circumcision. Blackworm 04:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Salut Blackworm,
Thanks for the welcome note.
(Gainstrue 16:39, 19 October 2007 (UTC))

re: Your recent edits

It read like a little POV battle within the 3 sentences... A report found that circumcision might negatively impact upon woman > the report was insignificant and didn't call into question the utility of circumcision > Thus, calls for male circumcision for disease prevention have been heavily criticised - Didn't seem to make sense the way it was put together.

I overlooked the leftover references... I'll try to fix that.

I agree, it wouldn't hurt to mention somewhere that calls for circumcision in the name of disease prevention have been criticized - After all, pathologizing a natural part of the human body, as opposed to addressing the actual causes of the disease and focusing on prevention strategies that are more effective, less invasive and less riddled with ethical/human rights problems (at least when it comes to circumcision performed on a minor, or coercion issues when stigmas about anatomically complete sex organs are promoted) is far from universally accepted as being an entirely sane idea. - Gainstrue 21:48, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I could not agree more; however, to some, removing the foreskin is akin to "clipping your fingernails" or "cutting your hair." These people's comparisons betray a warped perspective in my humble opinion. Blackworm 11:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I won't argue there, and to some people it is seen as being no different than vaccination. I personally don't think the two can be equated for several reasons but it's also good to keep in mind that the WHO recognizing circumcision as HIV preventive (and their subsequent recommendation that male circumcision services should be scaled up in Africa) is primarily intended for countries where the disease has reached truly crisis proportions. In my own opinion I think money could be spent in more effective ways... but if a grown male wants to go ahead and do it, it's his choice, and it wouldn't hurt to have it done in a proper medical setting as opposed to him heading off to see the local bush doctor. Given the sense of emergency in some of these countries I can see how anything that can be used to slow down HIV would be considered welcome.... but I think it becomes problematic when a minor gets marched down to the clinic or, as I mentioned, when the coercion factor comes into play if public awareness campaigns are more of an exercise in persuasion and stigmatization - if circumcision is going to be painted as a vaccine or a backup condom then the message can be that a man who simply has decided not to get part of his penis cut off is in a sense choosing not to vaccinate himself or wear condoms. I personally think public health officials go too far, not to mention lose credibility, when they put natural human anatomy into their line of sights - when most males get along just fine with what they've got and are perfectly capable of protecting themselves via their brain. But obviously there are differing views on that. Anyhow, the mention of the WHO in the intro does mention the context which I think is appropriate. As for criticism of the entire idea of utilizing circumcision as a prevention tool - maybe this could be briefly mentioned in the HIV section, and it is addressed on the bioethics page. - Gainstrue 15:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

On that... I had another look at the bioethics page and this is mentioned in there. I'm not sure, I can see the argument why it might deserve at least some mention on the main article. - Gainstrue 22:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'd like to have your opinion on my proposed "criticism section." In my opinion, it is short and concise, but almost fully summarizes the arguments of those opposing the practice. Obviously, the attempt to present anything which could be viewed as criticism in the circumcision article is a daunting task, given the tendencies of certain editors. Blackworm 11:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, the article is already kind of long. The criticisms I assume your talking about would be related to the medical and ethical issues. Such as penile cancer being a disease of the elderly and is a very rare form of cancer, which has other more significant contributing factors, hence removing healthy anatomy from a child on account of this is hardly an accepted idea in the medical world... or how most uncomplicated UTIs can be treated with oral antibiotics and they are less likely in boys than girls anyway. And the bodily rights issues etc... All of these I see in the article already, so I don't know whether a criticism section is needed. Further, I think that might only serve to polarize this page, would there then need to be a "criticism of the criticism section"? I think any relevant criticism deserves some mention in the section that it applies to, and for the most part the article seems to do a good job of that and from my experience so far the editors seem to be receptive to any ideas and input as long as the article stays within NPOV territory. - Gainstrue 15:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. The article does not conform to WP:NPOV in my opinion -- it represents the limited views of its principal authors, who engage in heavy handed placement of contested content, but similarly and without discussion heavy handedly revert perfectly valid edits with vague excuses such as "it's too long," "it only applies to ritual circumcision," "it's WP:SOAP," "it's undue weight for a minority opinion" and so on. What is even more amazing is that they ignore these same arguments when they are applied to the material they support. I believe I have demonstrated this at Talk:Circumcision, and so have many other editors who have since giving up attempting to wrench ownership of this article from Jakew and Avraham, and earlier with Jayjg and Nandesuka. All four editors (three being administrators) consistently and demonstrably push a pro-circumcision POV with their inconsistent, chameleon-like arguments peppered with personal attacks and dismissals based on bad faith. It is a travesty and a discredit to Misplaced Pages. Blackworm 11:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a formality

You do know that edit summaries such as this one while humorous, and a viable method of releasing your frustration, are still forbidden under wikipedia's personal attacks policies. -- Avi 03:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, Avi, let's stop this nonsense. You attack me by questioning whether English is my first language, I attack you by pointing out the irony that you question my English while making English mistakes. I realize I've been more dangerous to you and Jakew lately because I actually am starting to play this silly game on your level. I'm sorry if this is a burden to you. However, I believe you need to come to the realization that all of us have "POV bias" when it comes to this subject. Misplaced Pages has policies in place that could potentially let us come to agreements and make a better article. To allow us to separate the POV from the facts. Let's follow them and do so. The circumcision article reads like an advertisement for circumcision, because it is mostly written and edited by advocates of circumcision such as yourself and Jakew. This violates WP:NPOV. Work with me to change this. Blackworm 08:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree regarding nonsense. Your edits are intentionally provocative and as often as not directed against editors and not edits. Your view regarding the article is well known, and I find it unsurprising that you feel it so drastically skewed one way. However, I do not believe you are a suitable judge. Neutral Point of View requires that someone be able to read the article in such a way as to be uncertain as to the point of view of the author vis a vis the major viewpoints on the subject, in proportion to their penetration and representation. My personal opinion is that it seems that for every overtly pro-circumcision statement there is a balancing anti-circumcision one. To me, it appears that you feel that a statement that is not overtly anti-circumcision will be interpreted as pro-circumcision, and so you feel the need to insert negative connotations most places in order to balance what you personally feel is an imbalance. It is natural for you to feel that imbalance; but, as I said, I do not think that your sense of balance is the one with which the article needs to conform. Regardless, your history of overtly attacking statements and lack of respect for fellow editors will not serve you, the article, or wikipedia well. -- Avi 15:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I feel exactly the same way regarding yourself and Jakew, exchanging the words "anti" and "pro," and "positive" and "negative;" and also regarding your attacking editors rather than edits. I agree with your description of NPOV. I believe the current article is demonstrably failing to meet this standard, and shows widespread bias, aided by your and Jakew heavy handed guardianship, which may be a violation of WP:OWN. I do not believe you nor Jakew are suitable judges either. Thanks for commenting. Blackworm 23:33, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

NPA. Again.

Blackworm, in spite of numerous reminders, you still seem to have forgotten the essence of no personal attacks: Comment on content, not on the contributor.

Please have a look through your recent talk page contributions. In a worrying percentage, you repeatedly attack other editors. I'm happy to provide examples if you want, but I doubt you need me to do so. This behaviour really needs to stop. Jakew 23:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You have a lot of gall. I have actually been the victim of personal attacks, from you and others. rAlso, your continued WP:OWN violation merits a repeated demand that YOUR behaviour stop. Blackworm 01:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's a recent example: "I am sorry you seem see any information existing anywhere in the universe which may, potentially, upon reflection, cast circumcision in a negatively light as "opinion." Perhaps you should refrain your circumcision advocacy to non-encyclopedic arenas -- your ubiquitous presence in circumcision advocacy (as a simple Google search on "Jake Waskett" reveals) may be causing you to see bias where there isn't any."

Please remember that even if you are not able to comply with WP:AGF, there is no reason why you must voice your assumptions of bad faith. Doing so is incivil, and constitutes a personal attack. Jakew 12:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not interested in engaging you in this childish diversion. Examples of your personal attacks and the personal attacks of your allies are abundant, and your constant and ongoing utter disregard for the spirit and letter of Misplaced Pages policy (other than quoting it when it serves your goals, and constantly and often incorrectly accusing your opponents of violating it to undermine their arguments) is also evident. I do not wish to engage you in this meta-discussion -- already your "discussion" style seems calculated to frustrate, intimidate, and tire, as several editors have pointed out. It is clear that your complete lack of giving ground in any discussion, complete lack of ever admitting a mistake, constant "confusion" allowing you to "discuss" ad infinitum all the while claiming lack of consensus, constant misinterpretation of Misplaced Pages policy (or simply reinterpretation based on the scenario), and constant heavy handed and unilateral edits made without discussion or consensus, result in de facto ownership by you of every single article related to circumcision; this regardless of the number of editors agreeing or disagreeing with you. That time must come to an end. Your bias smells just as bad as everyone else's, even if you have turned it into a personal crusade. Blackworm 16:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you feel frustrated, Blackworm, but this is not a diversion, childish or otherwise. If you wish to participate in talk page discussions, then you must abide by core user conduct policies. These are not optional, and you need to take them seriously. Please limit your comments to the subject of the article in future. Jakew 17:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. If only you could follow your own advice. Blackworm 17:36, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment to Blackworm and Jakew

Re comments by both of you at Talk:Circumcision: "...since that would imply either self-denial or deceit on your part, ..." and "Perhaps English is not your first language?": I would like to ask both of you to try harder to "keep a cool head" as it says at the top of the page, and to write in such a way that it's also easier for the other person to do so, too. Thanks. I will put a copy of this message on Jakew's talk page. --Coppertwig 23:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing hot-headed said by me in that thread. The example you quote from me above was exactly in the format thrown at me by Jakew, except phrased as a rhetorical question, which I then answer in the negative. It was intended to show that his incivility and other violations were not welcome, in a format he may understand (since he flatly denies any accusations of any violations). Blackworm 01:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

When you feel that something has been "thrown" at you, that's an indication that the temperature of the debate is somewhat raised. The thing that's needed then is not to do something "exactly" in the same format back to the other person (or not even "exactly ... except"), but instead to do something that helps cool things down.

People with different POV's react to the same words differently. We each tend to see what we ourselves have written as being more harmless, innocent, justified, clever and obviously true, and what people we're debating with have written as more insulting or obviously false. In order to avoid escalating conflict, we need to compensate for that. If each person reacts with something they perceive as exactly the same level as the other person, then because it will usually be perceived differently by the other person, conflict will tend to (rapidly) escalate.

It helps to try to put yourself in the other person's shoes and try to feel, with some degree of accuracy, how they probably feel on reading your words. It takes a great deal of detachment to do this well. It can help to practice by looking at debates you have no feelings about yourself but in which the participants are expressing strong feelings, and put yourself in the shoes of first one and then the other side, trying to feel their feelings and understand how they perceive the whole debate. It also often helps a lot to take a 24-hour break so that both sides can cool down. --Coppertwig 17:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, that is the best course. I do not agree that I escalated the conflict with my response. Perhaps if I had said: "What if I told you, Jakew, that you 'chose' not to see my arguments? Wouldn't that be a violation of WP:AGF..." The meaning is the same, minus the sarcasm. In any case I appreciate your attempt to defuse the conflict (which was relatively minor on that Talk page), as well as your constructive responses in that thread. Blackworm 18:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it's usually best to avoid sarcasm in these sorts of discussions. Sarcasm tends to sting, and it also greatly increases the chances of being completely misunderstood. I'm still not sure I understand the sarcasm you're talking about here. The version above without the sarcasm seems far better to me. I think it might have been appropriate and constructive to post something like that on Jakew's talk page; but then again it might be counterproductive -- I'm not sure. I think those sorts of remarks are out-of-place on an article talk page. When you use a word like "deceit" it's too easy for the other person to misread or ignore the context it's in and just take it as if you'd said "Deceit!" directly to them, even when that is not what you said. The part of the brain that handles emotions tends to ignore things like grammar and logic.

I didn't say that you'd escalated the conflict and I didn't mean it. If we try hard to defuse minor conflicts, maybe major ones will never start.

I congratulate you and Jakew on keeping the discussion relatively civil at Talk:Prevalence of circumcision. ---- Coppertwig (talk) 21:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for answering the RfC

Hi Blackworm, thanks for the comments left at Talk:Loudness_war. There is no question that is a very good article. And, you are correct, the article's author (User:Riprowan) CAN NOT post that link himself. Which means that you can, if you believe of course that this editor is notable and his site is a reliable source. I say "his" because he owns it. One more thing, there is no link to the ProRec article on the RfC section because the discussion wasn't about how good the article was but whether articles's author can post it himself or not. Can you tell me how you got to it? Thanks. Jrod2 10:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jrod2. I didn't quite assert that the article's author couldn't post the link himself; only that it's unclear, and perhaps more valid if someone else did. The issue of reliable sources does not come into play here; the Links section (uncommented links to external sites related to the subject) does not fall under this requirement to my understanding. If, however, information from the ProRec article was used in the Misplaced Pages article, then the issue would arise. In that case, I believe the WP:RS requirement would be met if the views were properly attributed to Rowen (it is a reliable source for the claim that those are his views). The only remaining issue would then be as to his (and his views') notability, which I believe is unquestioned. To answer your question, as an amateur music producer I actively read ProRec years ago, and read Rowen's editorial then. By pure coincidence I happened to be looking at the RfC page yesterday and came across your request. Perhaps I will try to help improve the WP article, now that I know of its existence; this is a subject that interests me as well. Thanks for commenting. Blackworm 16:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Blackworm, thanks for the response. So I think you need to read "Writing about subjects close to you". Find this: "When writing about subjects that are close to you, don't use your own personal knowledge of the subject, and don't cite yourself, your web site, or the subject's web site. Instead, use what is written about the subject by other people, independently, as your sources. Cite those sources in your very first edit. If you don't have such sources, don't write.". One more thing, writing about a subject close to you doesn't necessarily only apply to your biography or your company. These are mere examples. So, if you are an audio engineer, you can't write about audio and use your own article to reference it. This may still apply to someone who never had contributed to an article but wishes to use his own link (See COI paragraph #1 Now, Rip Rowan claims that the article was written by someone who used his text. I don't think so (See the user who posted the link). As you can see it was months after the LW article was written. In order to say that he invented the term "Loudness war", verification through references are needed. Now, forgive me but you seem to be a bit misguided yourself because when it comes to being an editor at WP, admins and guideline guardians like editors to edit and contribute on a wide variety of subjects and topics, but require citations from verifiable sources and most important, notable people. There is also a user's (GlassFET) contention that the link is a "blog". But that's not the main issue right now. If you feel he is notable, then why don't post that link back? Jrod2 19:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe you have made your case against Rowen linking to his own site, as this guideline states. I do not believe my interpretation of WP:RS is misguided -- I was not commenting on any content on the page, or on Rip Rowen's assertions, but only on the question of the ProRec link being posted to the Links section. With regard to this content, I would agree that the Loudness War article suffers from a great lack of citations and references, and that WP:V calls for us to aggressively remove unsourced sections. However, I don't believe the subject is very controversial, and since the article seems still to be in its infancy I'm not sure that widespread blanking is appropriate; at least I wouldn't engage in it myself. Compare Women's Rights, for example, which has been unsourced for a long time and yet persists, despite its remarkably questionable claims about a much more controversial subject. Blackworm 20:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry Blackworm, I lost you with what you said about "widespread blanking". All I want to know is, will you or will you NOT reinstate the link for him? Jrod2 20:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't planning on editing the article; I was hoping the editors normally active on the page could come to a consensus. So the answer for the time being is, "no." This may change in the future, if I decide to become more active in editing that article. Blackworm 20:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, when citing Wiki pages in an authoritarian way, it helps if you're actually citing Misplaced Pages policy and guideline, not just someone's User Page version of it. Just a friendly tip. Blackworm 06:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I did TWICE. That user page (an Administrator) attempts to explain to some people who are "conveniently" confused, what all these guidelines mean, just like I did with you until you finally got that the RfC wasn't about whether the content was good or not. I advise you to move on, if you leave more messages here, you're talking to yourself Jrod2 09:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Your tone is unwelcome. Administrator's user pages are not policy nor guideline; their essays may be good advice, but it is not a consensus. Your quoting it as if it were binding, and in a demanding way, is inappropriate. Blackworm 09:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't care if my tone is unwelcome, yours was bad from the beginning as I didn't cited policy in "an authoritarian way" . I don't want to continue this discussion with you anymore. You should stop leaving irrelevant and redundant messages to me. This Admin's essay is VALID and based on previous consensus and contributors' history. But, most importantly, I gave you links to WP guidelines for you to read, so quit fixating on this particular essay and use your common sense. If that text was not valid other admins (and users} would have erased long ago. Anyway, what's your problem? The RfC is finished and the issue for now is over. Jrod2 12:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It should be clear that any "problem" I have here is unrelated to your RfC, but instead related to your hostile and patronizing attitude, which is unjustified in my opinion. I've noticed this tone in many of your entries, in response to several editors, and I believe it may be costing you support despite the potential correctness of your main arguments. As for "leaving irrelevant and redundant messages," I suggest that you take your own advice, while remembering that you are free to remove my talk page from your watchlist. Blackworm 18:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record, you started with the "tone" when you stated that I cited policy in "an authoritarian way" . What was that about? The fact is you are one of those who can't eat crow after they are set straight. That's your problem. Proof is, out of all the links to the guidelines I cited, you had to find the link to the admin's essay "inappropriate" to make yourself look like you are the one who knows better. Meantime, at the RfC, you couldn't even comment about the issue at hand. Who cares that "the ProRec article was well written"? The point was he couldn't place it, Period. You said: "I think he may not...". Is that the answer from someone who knows the most important guidelines? If anyone has problems with me, is usually for his or her inability to step up to the plate on a given issue. Ok? I think I am done, but I know you're gonna come back with more excuses to justify your absurd behavior. Jrod2 20:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If only you could justify your continued incivility. Blackworm 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a tip

Perhaps you didn't notice, but when you file an RfC the text is supposed to be a neutral statement of the issue. Jakew 14:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I did notice, and carefully made sure the statement was neutral. Why do you believe it is not? What would you have written? Blackworm 16:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you've phrased the question as though the article does 'define and use the word "circumcision" to solely describe the circumcision of males', though this interpretation is itself disputed (see, for example, the last sentence of my post dated 17:12, 6 November 2007). So instead of neutrally presenting the facts, you're presenting your own interpretation of the facts. Jakew 17:16, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The article is entitled "circumcision." Its first sentence is, "Circumcision is the removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis." It is ridiculous to dispute that the article defines circumcision to solely describe the circumcision of males. Nonetheless, since you claim you dispute it, and you are a party to the conflict, I reiterate my request for you to suggest a more neutral description of the nature of the dispute. How about this:

The article is entitled "circumcision." Its first sentence is, "Circumcision is the removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis." Does the combination of these facts define circumcision as solely performed on males? If so, is this neutral and appropriate? Blackworm 17:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you're counting 'first' sentences, but the preceding paragraph begins, "This article is about male circumcision. For female circumcision, see Female genital cutting." Jakew 18:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Just so that you understand my viewpoint, allow me to edit your suggestion: The article is entitled "circumcision." It begins, "This article is about male circumcision. For female circumcision, see Female genital cutting." Does the combination of these facts define circumcision as solely performed on males? If so, is this neutral and appropriate? Jakew 18:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Completely disingenuous. The article proper begins with the lead, not the fine print hatnote. Further, your version is not an accurate representation of the dispute. As per WP:LEAD (emphasis mine), "The article's subject should be mentioned at the earliest natural point in the prose in the first sentence,' and should appear in boldface." If you insist, we can say:

The article is entitled "circumcision." While the hatnote disambiguation says, in part, "This article is about male circumcision. For female circumcision, see Female genital cutting," the first sentence of the lead is, "Circumcision is the removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis," and the remainder of the article uses "circumcision" without qualifier to solely describe male circumcision. Does the combination of these facts define circumcision as solely performed on males? If so, is this neutral and appropriate?

As one more attempt to appeal to your logic and reason, if there was an article called "Circumcision," which proceeded to say, "This article is about female circumcision; for male circumcision see..." and then went on in the lead, "Circumcision is the removal of the clitoris," and then in the rest of the article, "Circumcision is opposed by the UN and the WHO," and "Circumcision causes death in X number of cases per thousand" and "Circumcision is usually done in non-sterile conditions" etc., wouldn't you have an objection? But this is exactly the kind of usage you are defending. Finally, for the third time, can you suggest a phrasing for this RfC that actually represents the dispute neutrally? Blackworm 18:46, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm think you've misunderstood the sentence you're quoting from WP:LEAD, which requires us to begin article ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha with something like "In galactic co-ordinates, ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha is...", and does not appear relevant to this disagreement. Regardless, it's helpful to know that you're counting from the lead section onwards, and I think that your proposed statement of the dispute is a considerable improvement.

As for your "attempt to appeal to your logic and reason", I think that if the primary definition of "circumcision" was "female circumcision", and if the vast majority of source material used "circumcision" without qualifier in that sense, then I don't see why I'd object. After all, if we actually mean what we say in the hypothetical hatnote, then the article you describe should be about female circumcision. Jakew 23:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Am I to infer by your comment that it is a "considerable improvement," that the above is a neutral statement of the dispute in your opinion? You still have not provided an alternative wording. My goal here is work with you to come up with a brief, preferably one-line statement of our dispute in that matter that we can both agree on -- and the above paragraph may be excess detail for this purpose. May I propose "Does the circumcision article inappropriately limit its discussion to male circumcision?" This seems to leave open the question of whether it does limit the discussion, and also whether such limitation, if any, is appropriate. Does this phrasing meet with your approval? Suggestions for improvement are welcome. Blackworm 21:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you can safely infer that the "considerable improvement" version is ok, Blackworm. It's not perfect, and it would be nice if it were shorter, but it seems to be the best statement so far. Incidentally, I suspect that we'd find it easier to express the dispute if we both agreed upon what it was fundamentally about. Jakew 13:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I believe it is evident that we are on opposite sides of proposed changes in this talk section; I am referring here to that dispute. I believe the one-liner I propose above is a better representation of that dispute, since it avoids limiting the analysis to a few sentences, and additionally avoids presenting arguments, which is both more neutral and more brief. Again, this would be much easier if you had a counter-proposal. Thanks. Blackworm 18:39, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

November 2007

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. Everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia. However, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Please, stop making personal attacks and assume good faith. Jrod2 22:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I read the above as an accusation that I failed to assume good faith. Could you please point specifically what I said that leads you to believe I violated this guideline? Thank you. Blackworm 22:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

You know what you did. But, if you want to get technical, calling someone "authoritarian" remark without justification, is not considered assuming good faith. Jrod2 22:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not refer to you as authoritarian; I referred to your remarks as authoritarian, which I believe is justified by the language you used, e.g., "So I think you need to read ," followed by three lines of boldface text quoting another user, who himself uses authoritarian language including, "If you don't have such sources, don't write," . Regardless, it was not my wish to upset you; only to suggest that you can come off as abrasive and commanding, and it is unwelcome. Blackworm 22:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Blackworm, I didn't write that. The admin did. I was merely copy/pasting the part that was relevant to the discussion about using references, so you didn't have to spend time looking for it in the essay. If his tones is in your view "authoritarian", I am sorry, but I am not the one who is saying that. Jrod2 22:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of its source, you posted it here, in bold text, preceded by the words "Find this:" I claimed you cited text in an authoritarian way, meaning that you cited directives in such a way as to imply that the directives were binding on me. I merely pointed out that if you choose to do so, it would be somewhat more appropriate if you would restrict yourself to citing actual Misplaced Pages policy and guideline, not someone's interpretation of it; this regardless of the credentials of the person, or ultimately the correctness of the interpretation. I hope this clarifies my position. Blackworm 23:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe you have misconstrued my actions. I always bold things that I want people to clearly read from other text. I did say "Find this", but inside the essay so that you can verify the admin's position. That's all. That's how he wrote things. If you continue to insinuate that I have other motives, such as pretending that I am an authority or anything else, then you are not assuming good faith. Funny, but I think you wouldn't have this discussion with me if I was an admin. However, If you don't find that admin's text admissible, fine. I can live with that. There are all the other guidelines at WP:COI anyway. But, don't tell me that his tone is mine, or that I speak in an "authoritarian way" because according to you, he does. Regardless what the admin said, the policy is clear, and in effect, I didn't even have to quote the admin at all. If you believe that his views are wrong, I urge to take it to an admin right now. As far as you and I, though, it's too bad you took me completely out of context. Jrod2 23:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I did not accuse you of pretending to be an authority, or in fact of acting in bad faith at all. However, some of your actions, such as responding to my question above with, "You know what you did," directly accuse me of acting in bad faith (i.e. asking a question of which I know the answer). I excuse this because you seem offended by my characterization of your remarks as authoritarian, and I understand how conflicts like this can arise and escalate. I will acknowledge my part in this conflict, having perhaps been insensitive, in the interest of putting the conflict behind us. Blackworm 00:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I am really glad that you and I can come to terms with this and put this behind. Peace. Jrod2 00:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

NPA

Blackworm, as I have reminded you on numerous occasions, the essence of no personal attacks is to "Comment on content, not on the contributor. ... Comments should not be personalized and should be directed at content and actions rather than people."

In this edit, the bulk of your edit failed to do this. Instead, you speculated about my memory, and whether I am acting in good faith.

Since you ask, I will answer your question here.

I agree that I agreed that the following statement was an accurate paraphrasing of the source: "The Catholic Church condemned the observance of circumcision as a mortal sin and ordered against its practice in the Council of Basel-Florence in 1442."

Now, as I understand it, you believe that this means that I agreed that the Catholic Church prohibited circumcision under any circumstances, including medical emergencies.

I believe that you have made two mistakes in your interpretation.

Firstly, while you may read the above as "and ordered against practice in the Council", I read it as "and ordered against practice in the Council". I think my interpretation is closer to the source itself when one examines the source: "Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation". (emph added). Interestingly, this source also gives the interpretation of "unnecessary" rather than "outright ban".

Secondly, an "accurate paraphrasing of a source" is not necessarily an "accurate paraphrasing of fact".

If you wish to request clarification on such issues in future, I would not be offended by a polite request on my talk page. Jakew (talk) 19:46, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't accept your interpretation nor your explanation. The source clearly refers to the practice of circumcision, despite your tortured interpretation. Are we to claim that Jews do not practice circumcision outright, but practice the observance of circumcision? That is completely silly.

This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include lying. Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, but instead that criticism should not be attributed to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice.

— - WP:AGF (emph. in original)

I believe your claim is easily taken as specific evidence of malice, thus my request for an explanation is completely justified. Blackworm (talk) 19:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Blackworm, Jewish people do practice the observance of circumcision, much as a Christian might refer to the desire to "practice the observance of Sunday". Indeed, if a Jewish child were to be merely circumcised, but the observance ("a keeping or celebration by appropriate procedure, ceremonies, etc.: the observance of the Sabbath") had not been practiced, then that would be considered insufficient.

It is unfortunate that, rather than accepting your mistake, you make matters worse. The essence of AGF is that when there are two or more explanations for something, and one is compatible with good faith, assume that it is correct. It is worrying that you appear to take it to mean quite the opposite. Jakew (talk) 21:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

"Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation."

— The Catholic Church

The only worrying thing here is your denial that the source above indicates that the Catholic Church prohibits the practice of circumcision, the bizarre interpretation from other circumcision advocates (UNAIDS) notwithstanding. (I suppose what is ordered against is also "unnecessary," but that does not change the fact that it is ordered against.) The part after the word you highlighted, "since," only describes why the Church prohibits it; it does not change the fact that it does. Your continued denial in light of this fact is not defensible. Now that you have confirmed that memory loss was not the issue, the only possible explanations that I can see right now, in light of your steadfastness on this, are outright lying, insincere rationalization, or pathological denial. Blackworm (talk) 22:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)