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Does anyone still believe in Velikovsky? I know Stephen Jay Gould talked about him, but I always presumed he was now only of historical interest. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC) | Does anyone still believe in Velikovsky? I know Stephen Jay Gould talked about him, but I always presumed he was now only of historical interest. ] <sup>]</sup> 11:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC) | ||
:You'd be amazed at the things people are willing to believe in. (Or maybe not.) Anyway, I gave Icebear1946 a spam4im warning. ] (]) 14:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC) | :You'd be amazed at the things people are willing to believe in. (Or maybe not.) Anyway, I gave Icebear1946 a spam4im warning. ] (]) 14:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC) | ||
::I had never guessed the depths of human credulity, naiveté, and outright stupidity before I started editing Misplaced Pages. If nothing else, the project is a real eye-opener in this respect. ] <small>]</small> 15:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Recent systematic push of fringe theories at Satanic ritual abuse
First, let me apologize for the length of this posting. This case involves systematic and clever use of system-gaming tactics; you might call it a "stealth POV push". The fringe theories are couched in reasonable language and falsely attributed to credible people; generally the sources invovled are scientific papers which can't be accessed without access to a good research library. I suspect that if I had this access, I could be even more thorough; as it is, Google has enough evidence to expose what's going on here.
User:Biaothanatoi has embarked on an extensive rewrite of this article to conform with his interpretations of WP:NPOV and other policies. In some cases, this has entailed a welcome removal of overly prejudicual language or unencyclopedic presentation of information. However, these edits have also departed severely from WP:NPOV, and often involved original synthesis of source materials. In some cases, statements have been sourced to documents which simply do not make them, violating WP:V in the worst way.
Most seriously, he appears to have cribbed incredible claims from a paranoid-delusional SRA activist, then falsely attributed them to credible sources without having ever read these sources. To avoid making this a user conduct issue I have forked off that part to the article talk page.
- Eleland, if you have reason to believe that the information provided in the article was false, then please demonstrate where and make the corrections accordingly. At the moment, you are engaging in purely ad hominen attacks and failing to engage constructively with the article to the benefit of the reader. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the first edits was an addition of information on the Jordan, Minnesota affair. While correctly noting that this case fell apart, the new version of events heavily distorts the issues. It leaves the reader to believe that a probable Satanic conspiracy escaped notice because of mistakes by the prosecutor, and was swept under the rug by state and federal authorities.
- I have not made this claim regarding the Minnesota case, nor do I believe this to be the case. Please engage in this debate in good faith. At the moment, you seem to be attributing a range of beliefs and opinions to me that I have never indicated that I hold. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
One of the first edits was an addition of information on the Jordan, Minnesota affair. While correctly noting that this case fell apart, the new version of events heavily distorts the issues. It leaves the reader to believe that a probable Satanic conspiracy escaped notice because of mistakes by the prosecutor, and was swept under the rug by state and federal authorities. In fact, the Supreme Court of the US later noted that "The injustice erroneous testimony can produce is evidenced by the tragic Scott County investigations of 1983-1984, which disrupted the lives of many (as far as we know) innocent people in the small town of Jordan, Minnesota. ... There is no doubt that some sexual abuse took place in Jordan; but there is no reason to believe it was as widespread as charged."
The State Attorney General's report notes that several individuals made false confessions under duress, or falsely incriminated others; one individual was found to be a serial child abuser (although no Satanic or ritual elements were substantiated) and another, a minor, was found to have assaulted his own siblings. It concluded that "The tragedy of Scott County goes beyond the inability to successfully prosecute individuals who may have committed child sexual abuse. Equally tragic is the possibility that some were unjustly accused and forced to endure long separations from their families...the City of Jordan should also be listed among the victims of the so-called sex-ring cases. Over sixty of its citizens were either charged with or suspected of abusing over one hundred children. State/federal investigators simply do not believe that accusations of such wide-spread abuse were accurate."
- I feel that all the information you have provided here would be a valuable addition to the article. Why don’t you post it to the article, rather then claim that it's ommission is evidence of my nefarious agenda? --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The next major section rewrite erased an account of the McMartin Beach fiasco based on the majority understanding. Its keystone was an archaelogical investigation financed by "true believer" parents, which alleged strong evidence of backfilled tunnels. The archaeoligical investigation ordered by the prosecution, which found no evidence of tunnels, was not mentioned, and it was added in argumentative style that "The significance and accuracy of these findings have been contested in psychological journals but have yet to be refuted by an archaeologist." Apparently it takes an archaeologist to conclude that it would be rather difficult to covertly backfill hundreds of cubic metres of tunnels under a crime scene.
- The archeological excavations were undertaken by an UCLA archeologist, and tunnels were found in the configuration disclosed by the children. Dirt taken from the filled tunnels included lolly wrappings with used-by-dates from twenty years after the preschool was built.
- To date, we know that an archeological excavation found tunnels under the McMartin preschool, that the tunnels matched the disclosures of the children, and that the tunnels had been backfilled at some point. I fail to see why this information should be withheld from the reader.
- Unless you have proof that Dr Gary Stickel (the archeologist), Prof. Roland Summit and the parents of the complainant children engaged in an elaborate conspiracy to fabricate the tunnel findings, then it is clear to me that the tunnel findings are relevant to this article, and that they may be of interest to the reader.
- Your argument otherwise presumes an elaborate conspiracy of which you have no proof, which seems like a 'fringe theory' all of your own. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The majority understanding of McMartin, which you can find in any media account or on law prof Douglas Linder's Famous Trials website, was painted as "an advertising campaign", "launched and paid for" by "attorneys for the defendants". Aside from various primary sources which are cherry-picked tendentiously, the sole source was an oral presentation by one Roland Summit, M.D., whom User:Biaothanatoi describes as "a world-renowned expert on child abuse" and " of the best-known names in child abuse research of the last thirty years." Summit is actually known for serving as a star expert witness for the McMarten prosecution, and for inventing something called "Child Abuse Accomodation Syndrome", which the SRA movement seized on as their silver bullet, but which he has since distanced himself from. Biaothanatoi also made much of his belief that the previous, skeptical sources, Paul and Shirley Eberle, are "pro-incest advocates" and "child pornographers"; in fact, they published a hippie sex magazine in 1970s LA which was subject to obsessive police investigation, resulting in no charges. Anyway, the Eberle's conclusions are substantially identical to the conclusions of most other sources, so even if their reliability were in tatters, it would not legitimize the rewrite.
- I've provided two sources which quoted the LAPD and a trial judge affirming that the Eberles were engaged in the child sex trade in the 1970s. The fact that you continue to uphold their reputations in the face of this information, whilst slandering respected academics like David Finkelhor and Roland Summit, is deeply concerning, and your pejoraive references to an “SRA movement” and the “invention” of the CAAS shows your own profound bias and POV, Eleland. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Another edit removed the information that the SRA panic basically faded out through the 1990s, and removed a vital 1992 FBI report which basically trashed the concept of SRA in detail.
- Lanning’s FBI report (which it is clear that you've never read) stated that ritual child sexual abuse does take place in what he calls ‘multi-dimensional child sex rings’, but that there was no evidence for a ‘Satanic conspiracy’ of any kind. I happen to agree with him. The only reason that the link to his report was removed was because his report doesn’t support the statement that was being attributed to him, and the report is over 15 years old now and of questionable relevance to the debate today. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
In place, was a cobbling together of some selective data amid unsourced, prejudicial original-synthesis. "The most comprehensive survey on the subject" was cited, which "found that, among 2,709 members of the American Psychological Association who responded to a poll, one third of psychologists had encountered at least one client with a history of “ritualistic or religion-related” abuse, and over 90% believed their clients." I haven't obtained the full copy of this study, but right in the abstract it is noted that, "the purported evidence for the allegations ... is questionable. Most clients who allege ritual abuse are diagnosed as having multiple personality disorder or post-traumatic stress disorder, two increasingly popular, but controversial, diagnoses." The first paragraph goes on to call SRA "shocking and baffling claims" including "human sacrifice cannibalism" - detail that, elsewhere, the same editor removed as "designed to construe all allegations of ritual abuse as improbable".
- I cited the research findings of Bottoms et. Al. accurately, Eleland. They chose to interpret their research findings in a certain way, but other academics have seen their research findings in a different light - see Noblitt and Perskin and their book "Cult and Ritual Abuse". Both Noblitt and Perskin document their clinical experience with patients disclosing a history of ritual abuse, and it may be of interest to you. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
A book by Finkelhor and Williams was quoted, which found "270 substantiated cases of sexual abuse in daycare centres throughout America, of which 17% involved multiple perpetrators and 13% involved ritualistic elements". I found a hostile review of the book, which alleged that "Even if the case fell apart, was rejected by the police or prosecutors, or failed to bring a single conviction, the case was nonetheless a "substantiated" case as long as anyone still believed. 'If at least one of the local investigating agencies had decided that abuse had occurred ... then we considered the case substantiated.'" After a crude well-poisoning attack, on the basis that the review was published in a journal run by someone who three years later made comments which could have been interpreted as flattering towards paedophiles, and a boast that the book "contains a full chapter on the methodology of the study" (something already discussed in the linked review), I asked about the accuracy of the review and was told to go read the book myself.
- You’ve never actually read the book that you profess to despise, Eleland, a fact that you readily admit.
- The author is still one of the leading experts on child abuse in the States, and you are attempting to discredit his work on the basis of a single hostile review from an unknown GP published twenty years ago by an organisation founded by a pro-paedophile activist. Talk about poisoning the well. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
At one point, I noted a weasel-worded "view needing attribution", and proceeded to replace it with a quote from Mary de Young, a prominent (skeptical) researcher into the phenomenon. It was rapidly removed it, on the grounds that some other skeptics used some other terminology. I argued that "the skeptical view is, in fact, also the mainstream view. I'm aware of the burgeoning network of websites, message boards, and activist groups insisting that academia and the media got it all wrong, that SRA is really a widespread, highly organized network spanning the globe, etc. But this is a fringe theory which needs to be treated as such." I received no substantive response.
- Your definition of “SRA” as a “widespread, highly organized network spanning the globe” is only one definition – and there are many others evident in the literature on SRA which take a much more balanced view. Claiming that everyone who believes in SRA believes in a global Satanic conspiracy is pejorative, unfounded, and directly contradicted by the literature.
- I provided extensive citations of skeptics who disagree with de Young on attributing SRA to “moral panic”, and who instead believe that SRA is attributable to psychotherapeutic malpratice or even organic factors such as neurological disruption. You may agree with de Young's conclusions, but many skeptics do not, and treating de Young as ‘representative’ of the skeptical position simply because you like her (and can access her article via Google) is POV to me. It is better that the article reflect the diversity of skeptical positions on SRA. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
The next edit implied that ritual abusers were being let off because trial rules required children to sit in chairs directly facing their tormentors, and that "the convictions of Cheryl and Violet Amirault for offences relating to ritual child sexual abuse were successfully appealed on the basis that two complainant children, aged 5 and 8, were permitted to angle their chairs away from the defendants." A Boston Herald article is cited. It is not mentioned that the issue of seating arrangements was a narrow legal tactic, and the real issues as reported in the media were "frenzied interrogations, the mad pleadings of interviewers exhorting children to tell, of the process by which small children were schooled in details of torments and sexual assaults supposedly inflicted on them in secret rooms-matters, the record of these interviews reveals, that the children clearly knew nothing about." (Wall Street Journal editorial).
- The issue of seating arrangements is not a ‘narrow legal tactic’ – today it is a basic feature of child sexual assault trial reform. This would be clear to you if you were at all familiar at all with the legal literature on child sexual assault and legal reforms over the last twenty years. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
It was also added that the McMartin case, mentioned above and widely regarded as a bizzare witch-hunt, caused authorities to "recognise the vulnerable and intimidated nature of complainant children in the justice system", a serious inversion of the record. As San Francisco Chronicle notes, "The McMartin preschool case in the mid-1980s was a kind of reverse watershed, she said. That case, in which hundreds of children made increasingly bizarre claims of abuse against the family owners and employers of a preschool in Manhattan Beach (Los Angeles County), eventually fell apart ... medical and legal professionals afterward embraced a more disciplined, cautious approach toward investigating sexual abuse."
- That is a quote from ONE journalist, and there are quotes from court reporters at the time who sat in on the trial and commented on the fact that, for instance, young children were on the stand for up to two weeks, and that this was extremely distressing to them.
- Today, such an ordeal would be considered to be a serious breach of the court’s duty of care to a child, which is why several states no longer permit children to be cross-examined in such a fashion.
- In reviewing the conduct of a child sexual assault trial from twenty years ago, it is worthwile reflecting on the harms sustained by young children in hostile and rigorous cross-examination on sexual matters by adult defence lawyers. Such harms have been extensively documented in the research literature and they are now well recognised by the justice system.
- I do not understand what value would be added to this article by withholding mention of the distress of the children in trial, as noted by court reporters at the time. It is verifiable information in accordance with the rules of Misplaced Pages. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Editing went on to add that "In the 1980's, children and adults with a life history of ritualistic abuse were presenting to healthcare providers with uncanny alterations to their consciousness, memories and identities," treating highly contested claims as objective fact, and sourcing it to an article by an M.D. However, the good doctor in fact stated that, "In the last ten years there have been increasing numbers of reports of ritual cult abuse in children and in adults, remarkably similar in detail ... Unfortunately there is still a dearth of both scientifically controlled studies or good investigative journalism." He went on to add his personal experience of some severely abused patients who responded poorly to treatment, speculating gently that satanic ritual abuse might offer some insight, but adding, "To be perfectly frank, many of us still have a great deal of difficulty accepting the reality of satanic cults...for us to believe that satanic, organized, ritual abuse does not occur, someone is going to have to offer us an explanation that is at least as credible as the eye witness accounts of our adult patients and the child patients of our colleagues...despite the fact that we have no evidence other than the walking evidence of our damaged patients, we do find it possible now to believe that they COULD exist. And to properly investigate this phenomenon we have to get it out of the realm of belief and into the realm of possibility while looking for proof."
It was also added that "Criticisms of MPD (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder) have largely died away following numerous research studies and meta-analyses confirming the construct validity of the diagnosis". Yet, the source is a paper which appears (abstract) to discuss the issue as an active controversy (title: "Three controversies about dissociative identity disorder").
Again, I don't believe that all of the edits involved are awful, and I wouldn't mind an expansion of POV's from the Satanic ritual abuse movement as long as they are attributed and balanced. But overall, the recent editing has been extremely damaging. <eleland/talkedits> 14:55, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
- the article appears to be in excellent hands with you, Eleland. --dab (𒁳) 06:41, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- You've done wonderful work to date, Eleland. If you should want any specific help, however, I can try to do what I can. Please contact me directly if you have any specific concerns and or any specific requests for assistance, and I'll at least do what I can. John Carter 15:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Other issues apart, actually, I would say this article is more than a little US-centric. Do we really need all the case studies from all the different states? We've had plenty of allegations of SRA in Europe, for the most part largely later proved to be false, or at least wildly exaggerated. This seems under-explored. Moreschi 10:41, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
- You've done wonderful work to date, Eleland. If you should want any specific help, however, I can try to do what I can. Please contact me directly if you have any specific concerns and or any specific requests for assistance, and I'll at least do what I can. John Carter 15:35, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The statement above "Most seriously, he appears to have cribbed incredible claims from a paranoid-delusional SRA activist, then falsely attributed them to credible sources without having ever read these sources." is made without proof or evidence. Furthermore, the actual factual accuracy of the SRA website has never been questioned or debated. The recent editing has added some needed balance to the article. In the actual SRA field, there are numerous peer reviewed articles citing the existence of SRA. This removes the belief of SRA from the category of a fringe theory. Abuse truth 02:53, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- To avoid making this a user conduct issue I have forked off that part to the article talk page. The gist of it is, Biothanatoi cited exactly the same articles in exactly the same format, letter-for-letter (almost byte-for-byte, except that she fixed the punctuation and used "smart quotes" in places.) <eleland/talkedits> 16:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that Eleland has yet to contradict any of the information that I have added to the article. In a number of cases he indicates that information I have provided is accurate, but that including it in the article is POV - an unreasonable argument. His objections rest on a set of assumptions about who I am and why I am making the changes - assumptions for which he has no evidence other then his pejorative stereotypes about the "SRA industry" which he denounces above. His arguments are based on ad hominen attacks on me, my credibility, and my motivations, and they are therefore without substance.
- The changes to this article have been made on the basis of my literature review which I have conducted over this year for my doctoral thesis, and they were drawn from three years of extensive research into both media and academic coverage of organised abuse over the last thirty years. I am currently sitting next to an entire filing cabinet of indexed journal articles on ritual abuse, organised abuse, and research into child pornography and child prostituiton, and a bookshelf of the same - written by both 'believers' and 'skeptics' alike.
- In contrast, Eleland's criticisms are based on whatever he can access via Google, and on this basis he attempts to dismiss world-renowned experts that he is unfamiliar with and books he has never read. He accuses me of 'cherry-picking' when I've systematically read the popular and academic literature - a fact clear to anyone who reviews the many citations I've added to the SRA article - and he simply jumps onto webpages that support his pejorative opinions about the existence of an "SRA industry" etc.
- Eleland, if you have new information about SRA that you'd like to add (for instance, the qutoes from the Minnesota case above) then please add them to the article. They are interesting and useful to the reader. Your opinions about me, and your conspiracy theories about an "SRA industry", are clearly biased and POV, and best left to yourself. In the future, I'd advise you to engage in debate on the SRA page in good faith and refrain from making presumptions about other editors simply because they disgree with you. --Biaothanatoi 04:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
it is well known that SRA is mostly in the hysterical imagination of religionists. There may be genuine cases, but in the spirit of "extraordinary claims need extraordinarily strong evidence", the burden of establishing cases of "real SRA" lies entirely on whoever wants to make the claim. dab (𒁳) 10:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Editing W is certainly enlightening, for I had no idea that people actually, seriously, still believed the claims. given that no clear physical evidence has every been found, that many of the accounts were blatantly fabulous, and that much research has shown the total susceptibility of children and adults to to the interviewing tactics used, the possibility of their being real is best treated as a fringe position, not as something that has to be disproved. Not that child sex abuse isn't real--I know personally of hideous instances--but that the net result of the self-sustainng frenzy has made true prosecutions much more difficult. Well, there is nothing so absurd that people wont believe it in denial of evidence, so we have to cover that possibility too. Perhaps in a paragraph. DGG (talk) 11:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- it's just like 16th century sorcery. Of course "folk magic" was practiced, like everywhere else, but the witch scare was produced by the witch-hunters, not by witches. Nevertheless, I can believe that the very witch-hunt in some people inspired the belief that they were in fact part of a wider satanic underground movement. Which of course again fuelled the zeal of the hunters. The same happened with RSA in the 1980s to 1990s. What is really to be discussed is a classic case of mass hysteria. The article currently hides this basic circumstance behind babbling about "prevalence". Of course there were lots of "victims", just like there were lots of "victims" during the witch craze, and there are even a handful of bona fide perpretators, like the crazy grandparents from the Southern US showcased by the article. But that's beside the point. The article should make absolutely clear that it is about a mass hysteria that has now passed its peak before it descends into discussing anecdotes of grandma from hell. --dab (𒁳) 12:24, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
There are numerous credible books and peer reviewed articles proving the existence of SRA. There are also many court cases with convictions for SRA. For the article to be accurate, these need to be presented.Abuse truth 02:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- In his criticisms, Eleland uses the term "SRA industry" - a phrase which refers to a supposed network of professionals who inflate SRA claims in order to make money. Eleland clearly believes in a conspiracy of people who work together to fabricate outrageous allegations of child abuse for their own financial benefit. His hostile attitude towards myself, and others who do not discount allegations of SRA, suggests that he feels that I may be a member of this conspiracy.
- I'm confused as to why Eleland's own conspiratorial beliefs are not an issue on this page, given it's focus. Eleland's beliefs meet all the criteria for a 'fringe theory'. The notion of an "SRA industry" was originally espoused by pro-incest advocate Dr Ralph Underwager and his wife Hollida Wakefield in their book "Return of the Furies", and expanded upon in the book "Victims of Memory" by Mark Pendergrast, who was accused by both his daughters of sexually abusing them. All of these authors are members of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, an activist group of people accused of sexual abuse who promote a psychological syndrome ("False Memory Syndrome" that has been rejected by the psychological community on the basis that it has no construct validity.
- In contrast to Eleland's conspiratorial beliefs, I don't believe in any conspiracy. I believe that some groups of people band together to abuse children, and some of these groups practice ritualistic torture and other sadomasochistic practices. This has been found to be true in numerous courts of law, police investigations and child protection investigations, and the harms of this form of abuse has been established in numerous research studies. I don't believe that these groups are part of an evil Satanic network (etc) but I understand that some (not all, but some) traumatised survivors feel otherwise - and some religious counsellors are inclined to believe this as well.
- It seems that I am being held accountable for a 'fringe theory' that I don't beleive in. Meanwhile, Eleland has made it clear that he holds to a 'fringe theory' of his own - a conspiracy theory that attributes a nefarious agenda to anybody, such as me, that disagrees with him on this issue. I ask that editors here consider the false attributions that have been made to me (e.g. beliefs that I don't hold and never have) and consider instead the conspiratorial and extremist beliefs that Eleland is openly espousing. --Biaothanatoi 02:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm glad to hear that you don't believe in "evil Satanic network", but I'd like a clarification. Did you post on Melbourne Indymedia under the user name Biaothanatoi that "an organised paedophile ring in Melbourne" which "must include cops, corporate & govt types", "is acting internationally ... and has particular reach within the intelligence sector", and is "not simply an organized criminal organization at its heart ... is a cult"? If so, when did you drop these beliefs, and what changed your mind? Are you active on a Canadian conspiracy website, where you have made the same claims, as well as made reference to your editing of Misplaced Pages and the SRA article in particular, and described ritual murders and psychological brainwashing in such detail that even your fellow conspiracy theorists were skeptical? I didn't want to bring this stuff up, because Misplaced Pages editors are judged on their editing, but if you're going to misrepresent your own beliefs I'm gonna call you on it. <eleland/talkedits> 03:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- The articles you referred to are from a few years ago, and, yes, my opinion has changed over that period. At the time, I was trying to understand what was happening to a friend of mine, who was disclosing ongoing abuse by an organised group of men who had abused her as a child. I would later be confronted with material evidence of this abuse. My friends disclosures regarding her childhood abuse were corroborated by an investigative journalist (Gary Hughes) who published a number of articles in The Age in 2004 regarding apparent improprieties in police investigations of organised abuse, and a psychologist who was in contact with other women in the area alleging the same form of abuse, by the same people, in the same manner.
- Unfortunately, much of the available material online is fairly conspiracy-minded, and that was my starting point. Over time, I was able to access and read the academic and research material on organised abuse and ritualistic abuse, hence my more balanced and informed opinion now.
- I hope this clarifies your concerns that I am lying or misrepresenting my opinions here. That is not the case. --Biaothanatoi 06:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The McMartin Tunnels appear to be more hysteria Adam Cuerden 04:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The Dark Tunnels of McMartin Dr. Roland C. Summit Journal of Psychohistory 21 (4) Spring 1994 The pattern of tunnels conformed to the architecture of the overlying building but had absolutely no purpose or conformity to expected trenching for foundations or utilities. In fact, the profile of the shallow trench dug to accommodate the waste pipe leading across the main tunnel (Joanie's reach-up- and-touch pipe) was clearly distinguishable as mechanically dug, showing the sharp angulation characteristic of a backhoe, whereas the tunnels had a rounded floor contour and shovel marks, showing that they had been dug by hand, presumably under the pre-existing concrete. The stainless steel pipe clamps joining an angle of the pipe where it crossed through the tunnel space had a different quality from clamps elsewhere which had remained buried since installation. The other clamps were corroded from years of soil contact, while those crossing the tunnel looked shiny and new.
PAIDIKA INTERVIEW: HOLLIDA WAKEFIELD AND RALPH UNDERWAGER Part I Paedophiles can boldly and courageously affirm what they choose. They can say that what they want is to find the best way to love. . . . Paedophiles can make the assertion that the pursuit of intimacy and love is what they choose. With boldness they can say, "I believe this is in fact part of God's will. --Dr. Ralph Underwager in this interview with Paidika, a European pro-pedophile publication.
Messing With Our Minds (5/98) Written by HUSAYN AL-KURDI A quiet but brutal war is being waged on the victims of child abuse, including sexual and even ritual abuse. The battlefields include academia, the courts, professional groups, and society in general. In some cases, the aggressors are the same people accused of perpetuating the violence. They've banded together, forming networks and support groups, most notably the False Memory Syndrome Foundation (FMSF), which discounts recollections of abuse recovered in later years, making survivors look like complainers and trauma therapists sound like quacks....Ralph Underwager, an early member of the group's (FMSF) professional advisory board, let the pedophile agenda slip when he told British reporters that, according to so-called "scientific evidence," 60 percent of all women who were molested as children believed the experience was "good for them." Both he and another advisory board member, Holida Wakefield, have publicly described pedophilia as a positive lifestyle choice.Abuse truth 01:31, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- Uh oh. You're about to be labeled a pedophile apologist; IPT is associated with Ralph Underwager, who once made comments in a Dutch pedophile magazine which were interpreted as pro-pedophile. According to Biaothanatoi, this makes anyone remotely associated with him, anyone who uses the same terminology as him, or anyone who takes their coffee the same way as him a pedo. Including you and me. <eleland/talkedits> 04:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- This is a joke. I have never called you a 'pedo' or insinuated that anybody associated with the IPT is a 'pedo'. And for Adam's information, Underwager claimed that paedophilia should be decriminalised, that sex with young boys was "loving and intimimate", and that 60% of women who had been sexually abused enjoyed it. If you want more information, you can find it on the SRA discussion page. I've posted the sources there. --Biaothanatoi 06:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm. It has come to my attention that Eleland was the initial author of the Satanic Ritual Abuse page, which may go some way to explaining his zealous defence of the material. Eleland, I've answered your questions above in some detail. Perhaps you could answer mine.
Eleland, do you believe that there exists a network of people (the "SRA industry") who have conspired to fabricate outrageous allegations of sexual abuse in order to trap innocent people?
This is the conspiracy theory advanced by child pornographers, Paul and Shirley Eberle, in their book "The Abuse of Innocence", whom Eleland quoted in his original article, and he has since gone on to defend the Eberles despite the fact that their activities in the child sex trade have been noted by both the LAPD and a trial judge.
The theory of the Eberles (and, apparently, Eleland) that allegations of SRA are mostly, or wholly, the fabrication of a secret conspiracy of people who seek financial and professional benefit from trapping innocent people in allegations of sexual abuse is a conspiratorial 'fringe theory' by any definition. There is no evidence to support such a theory and it is a belief directly attributable to two authors who believed in 'benign paedophilia' and who have distributed pictures of children having sex with adults.
Please, Eleland, I've let you know what I think and why. Why don't you do us the same courtesy? --Biaothanatoi 06:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- sigh, where has Eleland ever supported a claim that there is a "conspiracy" fabricating SRA evidence? A mass hysteria or moral panic isn't the same as a conspiracy. How is saying that claims that there is a Satanic conspiracy are deluded equivalent to postulating that there is a counter-conspiracy? There is no bleeding conspiracy. The long and short of it is that the USA is full of uneducated hysterical religionists. No conspiracy required to account for that. dab (𒁳) 09:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, can you tell me where I've used the term "SRA industry"? I can't find it anywhere on the SRA article talk page, and you've used it six times here but I haven't used it once. I have mentioned an SRA movement and SRA "true believers", but this is my own insight, and I didn't need the Eberles or anyone else to tell me about it. By the way, I of course do not claim any special rights or ownership over the SRA article, and you'll notice that I've hardly edited at all in the last several months.
- Anyway, the idea that there's a "secret conspiracy" invovled is laughable. Clearly, those who believe in SRA want to tell everyone they can about it. Their conferences are open to the public and their literature is widely distributed. While a few people like Roland Summit may profit from their books, speaking tours, etc, I'm sure that they sincerely and genuinely believe everything they are saying. (The same applies to people like Underwager who used to turn a handsome profit as an expert witness for the defense in child abuse cases.) Indeed, even in the cases where people have lied or fabricated evidence to convict alleged SR-abusers (such as the McMartin parents who attempted to plant "sacrificed" turtle corpses on the crime scene), I'm sure they only did it because they were convinced that the abuse was real, but needed a little extra help to be proven in court.
- A moral panic, as Dbachmann has rightly stated, is not the same as a conspiracy. If anything, it's the opposite of a conspiracy. A conspiracy involves a tight-knit group of people secretly following a conscious, rational plan. A moral panic involves a large number of people publicly buying into an irrational hysteria. A conspiracy is entered into for some profit or gain; the vast majority of those involved in the SRA scare have suffered greatly because of it.
- And stop talking about Underwager and the Eberles. You've ridden that hobby horse into the ground. We heard you the first twelve times, now please get off your soapbox. <eleland/talkedits> 20:40, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- You used the phrase "SRA industry" in the original draft of the SRA article, now deleted. If you want me to answer to a few articles I wrote two years ago, then surely you can do the same. It's clear that you have read the Eberles (after all, you cited them) and been deeply influenced by their argument, despite their history and repution. I'll stop mentioning that history when you stop defending them and their crackpot conspiracy theories. Meanwhile, Ralph Underwager's publications through his institute-of-one "Institute of Psychological Therapies" continue to be quoted at me by editors who are ignorant of his history and reputation. I would be thrilled to not have to mention his revolting beliefs about sex with children one more time, if only Misplaced Pages editors didn't rely on him so heavily.
- As for Summitt, he has never published a book on ritual abuse - his research is more broadly focused on the psychological adaptations that children make in abusive environments. His beliefs about SRA are far more informed and balanced then you bother to give him credit for - but then again, you insult him without knowing who he is, or bothering to read his work. Since neither Summitt nor I dismiss allegations of SRA out of hand, you presume that we must be members of a hysterical "SRA industry", and you attack us accordingly.
- I look forward to the day when you are able to engage in this discussion in good faith, and focus on the material in the article rather then attacking the person who made the changes. --Biaothanatoi 23:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- it has become clear that Biaothanatoi ("violent deaths"?) is here to advocate a conspiracy theory. dab (𒁳) 08:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- I look forward to the day when you are able to engage in this discussion in good faith, and focus on the material in the article rather then attacking the person who made the changes. --Biaothanatoi 23:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
no. eleland looks fairly overzealous throughout this whole affair. maybe we should obsessively google his name until we find some old message board posts and see what they say. So far all I'm seeing is a focus on character attack from eleland, and a focus on research and attempted research by biaothanatoi. 66.220.110.83 00:35, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Wow, I'm stunned by this interchange and how poorly it casts wikipedia. First, I know next to nothing about SRA and am of the popular opinion that it is probably largely a cultural fabrication. However, the attacks on Biaothanatoi are absurd. First, the meaning of his handle is a moot point. Second, he has made clear time and again that he is not advancing a conspiracy theory, rather the opposite in my opinion. So what gives? The guy is clearly trying to add another angle on a controversial topic and he is using reputable sources to do so. Furthermore, he has offered transparency here about the fact that his own views have evolved over time and with better research. Yet opponents here are using pretty dubious sources themselves. For example, the link which proves the McMartin Tunnels are "hysteria" is from an organization founded by someone, Ralph Underwager who, at the very least, has a well-documented checkered past that casts doubt on his intentions and more importantly represents the attempt of a psychologist to disprove an archaeological report. What in the world are people so afraid of here? I seriously do not get it. I'm not even making changes to the page, so please don't call me a conspiracy theorist, etc. But this back and forth speaks for itself. Why in the world is the WP community so resistant to any form of information which credibly argues for the existence of Repressed Memory and/or organized crime related to child sexual abuse? Clearly there are activists on both sides here, but come on, what gives? West world 03:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- how does any of this "cast wikipedia poorly"? This is just an editing dispute like any other. Did you somehow imagine that neutral articles write themselves magically, without friction? This is the hairy process that leads to a smooth article. The internet is a madhouse. Look what happened to Usenet. The WP community is "resistant", that is, skeptical, with good reason. Needless to say, "pro-hysteria" sources need to be met with the same skepticism, but it seems perfectly clear that the "hysteria" characterization has mainstream support, and that the "Satanist conspiracy" people are trying hand-waving tactics to somehow present the case as less clear than it is. "Skepticism" does not include second-guessing an author's private motivations based on his biography. In extends exclusively to questions of WP:RS, i.e. the respectability of the publication in question, and its critical reception. --dab (𒁳) 09:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
But with all due respect, are you actually suggesting that "mainstream support" is analogous to good information? There is mainstream support for alot of junk science. And I am not guessing the author in question's motivations based on his "biography," I am doing so based on published interviews and oft-cited examples of his writing that checker his professional past. Further, to believe in the existence of Sadistic Ritual Abuse based on reputable evidence is not, by any stretch, equivalent to believing in a Satanist Conspiracy. West world 10:51, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
- that's nonsense. Misplaced Pages is built to reflect academic mainstream, we simply have no other measure. Inasmuch as you can cite "reputable evidence", you're fine. If you cannot cite "reputable evidence", too bad, it's not for Misplaced Pages. dab (𒁳) 13:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- As a somewhat neutral party here, I humbly request that someone for the love of Misplaced Pages go and attach the User iD to the unidentified statements. I simply cannot make sense of this argument. Are they all one user, if so whom and can somebody please get thru to this user that he/she needs to use four tildas to date and time-stamp their comments? Heavens to betsy, just trying to figure out who is saying what is giving me a headache. now - my credentials are as an Anthropologist and, coincidentally, an Archeologist, who has an interest inNew Religious Movements and the entire history of the SRA issue. I take a dim view of people who stand solid on absoultes sides that either none of it took place or it all took place. Child molestation is a complex issue with varying causes and hallmarks. McMartin is important for a number of reasons but I can't even begin to answer questions raised here or in the article when I can't tell who is leaving unsigned comments. This page is too active to go thru all all the edits to see. ThanksLiPollis 11:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- LiPollis, I see no unsigned posts here. You may be confused by Biaothanatoi cutting apart Eleand's long initial posting, which is indeed frowned upon precisely because it confuses people. dab (𒁳) 13:35, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- As a somewhat neutral party here, I humbly request that someone for the love of Misplaced Pages go and attach the User iD to the unidentified statements. I simply cannot make sense of this argument. Are they all one user, if so whom and can somebody please get thru to this user that he/she needs to use four tildas to date and time-stamp their comments? Heavens to betsy, just trying to figure out who is saying what is giving me a headache. now - my credentials are as an Anthropologist and, coincidentally, an Archeologist, who has an interest inNew Religious Movements and the entire history of the SRA issue. I take a dim view of people who stand solid on absoultes sides that either none of it took place or it all took place. Child molestation is a complex issue with varying causes and hallmarks. McMartin is important for a number of reasons but I can't even begin to answer questions raised here or in the article when I can't tell who is leaving unsigned comments. This page is too active to go thru all all the edits to see. ThanksLiPollis 11:28, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature: Tesla's Science of Energy
A coatrack for Tesla-POV pushing. ScienceApologist 20:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- without even looking, what's it a coatrack of? --Rocksanddirt 23:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- Zero point energy theories of Tesla. ScienceApologist 13:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature: Tesla's Science of Energy (2nd nomination). Please comment. ScienceApologist 23:02, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, TM, etc
This and related articles are another example where article ownership and POV editing is obvious and criticism is lacking. The articles assert fringe theories like TM-Sidhi program, including yogic flying, Maharishi Effect, Maharishi Vedic Science, Invincible Defense , as well as controversial medical claims, with undue weight. --Dseer 06:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
- yes, this needs an effort. TM related articles are vastly inflated and spinned, they should probably be shortened, put in perspective and partly merged with prejudice. dab (𒁳) 10:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
- TM advocates responded to RFC and tags by pruning article somewhat. However after 3 days they arbitrarily removed the RFC tag as well as other tags. 3 days is insufficient time to obtain comments from other editors, IMO, and TM sidhi program with fringe theories is still featured. Suggestions? --Dseer 03:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The Fundamental Dilator in the Hypergeometrical Universe Model
I hate to be one helps who puts who helps put the kibosh on presenting important material that may change our entire way of thinking, but I'm reasonably sure there are some policies around here relevant to this new article. See also this afd, and for those who can view the deleted contributions of User:Ny2292000 probably a whole lot more. A speedy deletion of the article and images would be fine, as would a block of the WP:SPA, but I thought I'd mention it here as it's likely to come up again sometime in the future. Tim Shuba 17:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- For bonus points, it's a copyviol of http://www.geocities.com/ny2292000/2.pdf and a re-creation of the linked AfD. Expect the link to turn red rapidly. <eleland/talkedits> 17:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- (chuckle) - speedied. --dab (𒁳) 18:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ho hum... Now recreated. Tim Shuba 20:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Gone again -- lost in the FS boundary layer no doubt. •Jim62sch• 21:17, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ho hum... Now recreated. Tim Shuba 20:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- (chuckle) - speedied. --dab (𒁳) 18:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I would like to propose a law, stating that it is unlikely a given author has landed a major breakthrough in theoretical physics if he is beaten by the complexities of Misplaced Pages procedures as he is trying to write an article on his discoveries. --dab (𒁳) 08:26, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Intergral theory, etc.
The family of pages at Category:Integral theory, Category:Integral thought, Category:Ken Wilber, and Category:Sri Aurobindo go into great technical detail about the beliefs and biographies surrounding fringe New Age-y theories with little or no coverage in mainstream, independent sources. (For example: "Zimmerman is the only scholar to take space alien phenomenology seriously.") I've recently prodded a bunch of them, but I expect those to be contested by the authors. Fireplace 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- there is an entire {{Integral theory}} series for chrissakes! is nobody patrolling these topics at all? Instead of prodding them, I suggest you radically {{merge}} them into some single central article (in this case Integral thought). It is arguable that we can keep a single article on a barely notable idea, but it is out of the question that we should allow it to grow metastases in dozens of articles about "integral $WHATEVER". --dab (𒁳) 18:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- Agree with Dbachmann: vicious redirection, mixed in with a few deletes, looks to be the answer here. I'll start tomorrow. The phrase "walled garden" suddenly soars to the fence of the teeth...Moreschi 21:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- OK. See here for a list of articles I've prodded already. Most are New Age cruft. See here for my notice on their main talk page of the notability problems. A LexisNexis search of all major newspapers this material returned some substantial coverage of Auroville (a futuristic hippie commune in South India -- the locus of this movement) and occasional discussion of Sri Aurobindo, their leader. But, I found no substantial coverage of the content of the belief system itself. Fireplace 00:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- I've turned some of your prods into redirects: many of the titles are perfectly valid as redirects to their respective proponents, we just want to avoid dealing with a half-dozen articles all discussing the ideas of a single unnotable thinker or minor organization. Also, go easy on prodding material directly connected to Sri Aurobindo: this guy may be a total nutcase, but he is nevertheless of appreciable notability to Hindu revivalism, and as such does probably deserve a category of trivia articles (compare Category:Tolkien, which is likewise filled with every snippet of interest to fandom) dab (𒁳) 08:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- OK. See here for a list of articles I've prodded already. Most are New Age cruft. See here for my notice on their main talk page of the notability problems. A LexisNexis search of all major newspapers this material returned some substantial coverage of Auroville (a futuristic hippie commune in South India -- the locus of this movement) and occasional discussion of Sri Aurobindo, their leader. But, I found no substantial coverage of the content of the belief system itself. Fireplace 00:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Agree with Dbachmann: vicious redirection, mixed in with a few deletes, looks to be the answer here. I'll start tomorrow. The phrase "walled garden" suddenly soars to the fence of the teeth...Moreschi 21:42, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with the redirects so far. Regarding Sri Aurobindo, I tend to disagree that we need a web of articles detailing the technical details of his beliefs. As I said above, I've found evidence that he is mildly notable qua leader of a small group of people, but haven't found any reliable sources discussion the content of his beliefs at all. (As for Tolkein, I'd be happy merging articles like this one, and I think WP policy would support that.) So, for articles like Delight (Sri Aurobindo), I would redirect into Sri Aurobindo or, if there's too much disagreement, take the whole lot of them to AfD. Fireplace 13:55, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Have a look at The Rosicrucian Cosmo-Conception, which has a section saying that the book was right and genius because Einstein and Plate tectonics are wrong. Adam Cuerden 01:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I've also created Collected Works of Sri Aurobindo as a useful merge target. I think our problem articles are those in Category:Integral thought and Category:Integral theory, because these categories are WP:SYN in themselves. Category:Sri Aurobindo is not a problem, since its articles are clearly attributed to a specific esoteric school. dab (𒁳) 09:05, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm working on the redirections, mixed in with one or two deletes. {{Integral thought}} exists as well: I've got a nasty feeling this walled garden is quite a bit bigger than I'd initially thought. The complete picture needs to be looked at here to get the full scale of the problem. Moreschi 13:44, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm maintaining a list of potentially problematic articles/templates/categories here. Fireplace 14:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- as the prods are being removed, I think we will be dealing with them at AfD. Similarly, at least one of the merges resulted in the inclusion of the entire extremely borderline content into the main article. I would suggest trying to remove the least notable of the individual books first, slowly. Doing things like this too fast has not worked well in the past. DGG (talk) 02:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm maintaining a list of potentially problematic articles/templates/categories here. Fireplace 14:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Human thermochemistry
Could people watching this noticeboard please comment at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Sadi Carnot? Thanks. Carcharoth 19:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
- already did. --Rocksanddirt 04:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Monica Pignotti in Thought Field Therapy Article
In the Thought Field Therapy article http://en.wikipedia.org/Thought_Field_Therapy , someone who goes by the name of Boodlesthecat added a reference of a Letter to the Editor I wrote stating an opinion supportive of TFT when it was obvious that this was an outdated reference and that I have publicly retracted my views on TFT. I tried to point this out to Boodlesthecat and delete this, but Boodlesthecat reverted it and accused me of "suppressing" information. I then actually wrote to the journal being referenced (Traumatology) and wrote a retraction for the particular letter that was cited and then put that into the article. In the Traumatology retraction I stated that Boodlesthecat putting this in, in the first place was misleading and really tangential to the topic of hand, which was to cite published articles on TFT, not bring in letters to the editor. No reputable encyclopedia would put in letters to the editor where enthusiastic supporters were merely stating opinions (as was the case with the retracted letter I had previously written). Please note that in addition to the Traumatology retraction I just put in after this incident, there was also an earlier article I had published in 2005 where I explicitly stated agreement with the review by Hooke in question so there really was no good reason for Boodlesthecat to be citing this outdated reference that misrepresents my present views. I would like to have this removed. Another point in terms of the quality of the article, is that an enthusiastic opinion from a TFT devotee (which I was at the time I wrote that retracted letter) is tangential and having to then put in the fact I retracted the letter really makes the article appear very poorly written. If people really wanted to add "balance" they could have cited and quoted from Roger Callahan's response article to the review in question, rather than a letter to the editor from an enthusiastic TFT devotee merely stating an opinion that was late retracted. I will be writing about this incident in an article I have been invited to write for an APA publication, by the way. --MonicaPignotti 14:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC) copied from Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard--BirgitteSB 19:29, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- for anything other than the opinion of an expert in a particular field, a letter to the editor of a newspaper, magazine, or academic journal is not a reliable source. --Rocksanddirt 19:36, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- well...i dived in for a bit....the article is at least referenced to relable sources for many things. The issues are garden variety unreliable studies and arguement about what constitutes "science". Mostly needs the ref's to be updated to wiki normal, and likely some of them weeded out. --Rocksanddirt 20:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Letters to the editor retracting a peer-reviewed published study are as notable as the original. In academic practice, they are always supposed to be cited together--and in medicine, PubMed goes to elaborate trouble to ensure they are not accidentally overlooked. this is the standard mechanism for correcting scientific error. In the case of letters from other scientists raising critical points with the work, these too are noteworthy and appropriate to quote; they are not printed without editorial thought, and almost always represent soundly based criticism from reputable workers. it would be ironic indeed if our rigid rules for reliable sources prevented the use of exactly the mechanism which the scientific literature has evolved for ensuring its own reliability!
- They do not rank along with letters to the editor of a newspaper. (though I point out that letters to major news sources are selected, edited, and screened, not printed as whatever comes into the office. ) DGG (talk) 02:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, though this case is a bit different. The letter that was ref'd was just a comment on an article/subject. At the time, it seems debateable if the commentor should be considered an expert. Now, she certainly is an expert, and has peer reviewed reports in the same (and other journals) that supercede the comment she made previously (that she'd like not in the article), that doesn't really fit the article anyway (it's not a reliable source of information on the subject, just an opinion and this article has plenty of that). --Rocksanddirt 23:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- well...i dived in for a bit....the article is at least referenced to relable sources for many things. The issues are garden variety unreliable studies and arguement about what constitutes "science". Mostly needs the ref's to be updated to wiki normal, and likely some of them weeded out. --Rocksanddirt 20:30, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Armenia
A fringe theory regarding the earliest mention of the name Armenia and Armenian people in history is currently circulated in Misplaced Pages by some Armenian editors. Recently the main article of Armenia itself has unfortunately been a target. Basically the majority of modern scholars assert the view that the earliest mention of the name Armenia/Armenians was in the 6th century BC aproximately around the same time by Greeks and Persians. Hecataeus of Miletus and the Behistun Inscriptions of Darius I. Scholars who say that these are unequivocally the first known instances the name Armenia has been mentioned include Dennis R. Papazian (Professor of History, The University of Michigan), Mark Chahin (author of the peer reviewed Kingdom of Armenia ), James B Minahan (Miniature Empires: A Historical Dictionary of the Newly Independent States ), Elizabeth Redgate (The Armenians ),Richard G. Hovannisian, PROFESSOR EMERITUS Ph.D., UCLA, 1966 Armenian Educational Foundation Professor of Modern Armenian History () etc. Despite this the following line has been added to the main Armenia article: "Another view marks Sumerian inscriptions of Naram-Suen dating to 2260 BC as "the earliest mention of the name in a form recognizable as Armenian". It is supported by a ciation from Thomas J Samuelian (a linguist who has nothing to do with history) who is referring to Artak Movsisyan as his source, a historian from Armenia with no published work outside of Armenia with incredibly far fetched theories. This attempt basically pushes back the first mention of Armenia 17 centuries back from what most scholars agree with. -- Ευπάτωρ 15:15, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- Likewise James Russell, chapter on "The Formation of the Armenian Nation" in Armenian People from Ancient to Modern Times (ed. Richard G. Hovannisian, Palgrave Macmillan, 1997, pbk ed. 2004) Volume 1, p.19: "The first historical reference to the Armenians appears in the rock-cut inscription of 518 BC of the Achaemenian Persian king Darius I at Behistun..." In the next chapter ("The Emergence of Armenia"), p.38, Nina Garsoïan refers to the "most famous and important" inscription (at Behistun) "where the name 'Armina' is recorded for the first time." --Folantin 15:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
this isn't a concent dispute, it's just an administrative task of keeping the angy young patriots in check. Last year, it was the Hindutvavadis, now it's the Armenian national mysticists, they'll grow tired just like all their predecessors. --dab (𒁳) 16:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- godblessamerica don't people have a better use for thier time? Those patriots would be better off building roads, and increasing the spoken language of armenia if they are so concerned. The real fringe theory stuff is hard enough for me to keep a grip on. --Rocksanddirt 17:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- hm, the problem is, of course, that these people aren't in India / Armenia. They are US and Swedish expatriates. Patriotism always grows more burning and more ideal at a distance. --dab (𒁳) 17:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- godblessamerica don't people have a better use for thier time? Those patriots would be better off building roads, and increasing the spoken language of armenia if they are so concerned. The real fringe theory stuff is hard enough for me to keep a grip on. --Rocksanddirt 17:18, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Samuelain is a respected scolar, "Mr Samuelian is the author of a number of books, articles, reviews, and translations in the field of Armenian language, literature, and history, including a recent English translation of St. Gregory of Narek’s Book of Prayers: Speaking with God from the Depths of the Heart (www.stgregoryofnarek.am), a two-volume Course in Modern Western Armenian, Dictionary of Armenian in Transliteration. He has taught at the University of Pennsylvania, Columbia University, and St. Nersess Seminary. Mr. Samuelian holds his J.D. from Harvard and his Ph.D. in linguistics from the University of Pennsylvania" . His Armenological researches and works used by (a research for ICHD), (Gomidas Institute journal), , , (Oxford journal), , . Samuelian wrote: "Others cite Sumerian inscriptions of Naram-Suen dating to 2260 BC as the earliest mention of the name in a form recognizable as Armenian. These inscriptions refer to Sumerian battles with the Armani ". The ref. #21 didnt mark Artak Movsisyan (Im not sure but as I know Artak Movsisyan's books are related to Aratta, not Naram Suen: surely this Naram Suen version existed before him, pls read the source its online, to not falsify what sources are used), it marks an Armenian academian (Ishkhanian, On the Origin..., 1989, p. 46, and Bnik hayeren barer, 1989, p. 56) and a foreign scolar (B. Hrozny, Naram-Sim et ses ennemis: un Texte Hittite, 56-75). Dr. Anzhela Teryan also marks: "*"The king of Akkad Naram-Sin used the Armani state name for the state in Armenian highland (2500s BC)". (in Armenian) Anzhela Teryan (PhD on historiography, senior researcher of State Museum of Yerevan), "The cult of Ar god in Armenia", Yerevan, Aghvank, 1995, p. 29." Have you any quotations from the scolars marked by you? If yes, and if they are really a majority, why to not just call this other view "a minority view" and stop to call them "idiotic" etc. have you any reviews criticizing them? if no, whats the problem? Andranikpasha 21:42, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- there is no problem. On Armenia (name) we clearly state that the toponym may be attested in Bronze Age sources, Samuelian is perfectly right. What we do need to review, and what may be appropriate for this board, are articles of very dubitable notability, such as Anzhela Teryan, Martiros Kavoukjian, George Goyan or Hayk Hakobyan. --dab (𒁳) 06:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- There's a very detailed book that deals with fringe theories popular in Transcaucasia, and which has a separate chapter on Armenia (same as other countries of the region). It is called Philip L. Kohl, Clare Fawcett. Nationalism, Politics and the Practice of Archaeology (New Directions in Archaeology). ISBN: 0521558395. It is very helpful in understanding the issues in question. Grandmaster 07:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I know, see antiquity frenzy, Armenian nationalism. You have no idea of the crap I regularly clean out from places like Hurrian language or Subartu. Not just Armenian, also Kurdish and Syriac -- it appears that everybody from the region who doesn't identify as Arab or Turkish has abandoned all reason in touting their antiquity. Unnecessarily, since it is undisputed that Turks and Arabs are intrusive to the area, but there is still a slight difference between 1000 BC and 2000 BC (about a thousand years, I'd say). --dab (𒁳) 10:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Tell me about it :) There are many articles like that. Grandmaster 12:06, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Proprioceptive Method
My sixth (seventh?) sense detects a certain odor sorry I mean aura emanating from this, which is already being flatteringly summarized elsewhere. Perhaps it's merely promotion, so common in Misplaced Pages. Anyway, I fear that although I'd be able to Google, etc., this week; I shan't have time to take a major role in arguing with the contributor. -- Hoary 00:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- from that article: " Secondary sources are also becoming available, resulting from the website’s encouragement" . I think an AfD is in order. DGG (talk) 02:15, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Me too, but the author seems energetic and articulate and will no doubt rise to the article's defense. So a bulletproof AfD proposal. Sorry, I'll lack the time in the near future. -- Hoary 02:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
prod was removed. this belongs on afd as an OR essay. --dab (𒁳) 11:30, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- There might be an article there....there are at least some reliable references used, just needs more and the sales pitch on the method removed. I did a wee bit. --Rocksanddirt 17:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
sources are cited, but what are the sources for the method itself? it's as if the author developed the method as he goes along (WP:SYN). dab (𒁳) 19:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't say there was an article there....just that their might be....but the text still needs de-essayfication, or to be afd'd. --Rocksanddirt 20:13, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- before we de-essayify it, I'd like to see a concise lead saying "the PM is a method developed by Mr. X in 200Y (ISBN xxx), so we'll at least know who this is an advert for. There is no point in de-essayifying it as long as we cannot pinpoint what or who it is even about. dab (𒁳) 20:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Look at the article a bit longer, and you'll agree that there's nothing to this. Still, readers' participation (one way or another, of course) in the almost completely ignored AfD would be welcome. -- Hoary 07:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
More Reddi coatracks
Please comment here: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:Reddi/Dynamic Theory of Gravity. Thanks ScienceApologist 23:59, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Race of Ancient Egyptians
... has been unprotected. Sane input and more eyes please. The effort invested in muddying this issue is staggering. --dab (𒁳) 14:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- The issue is whether or not controversies or fringe beliefs about the race of the ancient Egyptians deserves any mention at all. Dbachmann seems to be under the opinion that in the discussion of the Race of the ancient Egyptians, fringe theories and controversies need to be totally ignored. This doesn't coincide with WP:Weight or WP:Fringe. Any incidents or beliefs that are notable (have garnered enough media attention or mentions) are relevant to the topic and need to be discussed in a neutral manner, not simply ignored and removed from the article. Wikidudeman 15:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- no. it is undisputed they "deserve mention", i.e. in a brief "Afrocentrism" paragraph linking to a discussion of that topic. This is exactly what WP:FRINGE is talking about. --dab (𒁳) 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Characterizations of race in an academic context are lately considered to be deviant if not downright ignorant. The paper bag tests of old are no longer relevant to a society which recognizes that there is more genetic differences within so-called "races" than between them. What a good article on the subject would do, therefore, is characterize the entire subject as superannuated and basically irrelevant to modern scholarship. ScienceApologist 15:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- What percent of the discussion (in general) about the race of the Ancient Egyptians revolves around controversies generally concerning afrocentricism? 20%? 30%? Giving the controversies only a brief paragraph isn't sufficient as there is a lot of notable info relevant to the subject. Wikidudeman 15:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Characterizations of race in an academic context are lately considered to be deviant if not downright ignorant. The paper bag tests of old are no longer relevant to a society which recognizes that there is more genetic differences within so-called "races" than between them. What a good article on the subject would do, therefore, is characterize the entire subject as superannuated and basically irrelevant to modern scholarship. ScienceApologist 15:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- no. it is undisputed they "deserve mention", i.e. in a brief "Afrocentrism" paragraph linking to a discussion of that topic. This is exactly what WP:FRINGE is talking about. --dab (𒁳) 15:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- The issue is whether or not controversies or fringe beliefs about the race of the ancient Egyptians deserves any mention at all. Dbachmann seems to be under the opinion that in the discussion of the Race of the ancient Egyptians, fringe theories and controversies need to be totally ignored. This doesn't coincide with WP:Weight or WP:Fringe. Any incidents or beliefs that are notable (have garnered enough media attention or mentions) are relevant to the topic and need to be discussed in a neutral manner, not simply ignored and removed from the article. Wikidudeman 15:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- but the history of how we got to 'modern scolarship' is also important. How much of the article should from the fringe of afrocentrism or the less fringe stuff is what the discussion should be, not that there shouldn't be any. i.e., the weight issue. --Rocksanddirt 16:48, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
That article is one of the worse things about Misplaced Pages. An example of Wikialty ? Black and wooly haired Cholchians ! Wow.-- Ευπάτωρ 03:33, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Huh? It's a quote from Herodotus. Saying that the article is one of the "worse" on wikipedia is totally unhelpful. If you want to improve it then please feel free to, however simply criticizing it without any actual advice won't help anyone. Wikidudeman 03:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman: what is so difficult to understand here? If it's Egyptology, cite Egyptological WP:RS. If it's archaeogenetics, cite genetics WP:RS. "Some afrocentrists" do not qualify as either, and their opinion is not of academic interest. There are academics discussing this afrocentrism thing, but these are sociologists, not Egyptologists. This is eerily parallel to Out of India: ideologists with no academic background call "discrimination by white imperialist academia", playing the race card until Egyptologists do feel compelled to explain why they are ignoring their "contributions" (because they have no merit). Look, if this was about editors insisting on organizing the Germanic peoples article along the pros and cons of Nordicism, I don't think we would be having this debate. If you can discuss the "Race of Ancient Egyptians" by referring to peer-reviewed Egyptological literature, please do that, but sprinkling the article with afrocentrist ideology and its debunking is precisely what we do not want, and what WP:FRINGE is built to prevent. --dab (𒁳) 07:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- You're confusing unreliable as a secondary source as non-notable. The afrocentric scholars aren't reliable as secondary egyptological sources, but they ARE notable and can thus be used as primary sources. This means that the afrocentric views are notable enough to include information dedicated to their views and we can use their own assertions as primary sources to source what they have said. It's also worth mentioning that not all of the sources dealing with afrocentric views are by afrocentricists but are secondary sources from news organizations, etc. Wikidudeman 12:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, dude, did you read anything I wrote? Yes, Afrocentrists can be notable as primary sources, on the topic of Afrocentrism, but not Ancient Egypt. This is what I have been preaching all along. Now please go and take a good long look at WP:UNDUE. (some help, anyone?) --dab (𒁳) 13:31, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- I hear what you are saying, loud and clear, dbachmann, but since this particular article is on a subject outside the bounds of mainstream Egyptology and archaeogenetics, I'm a little confused as to how to apply the WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE clauses judiciously. I think a case might be made for deleting the article in its entirety and merging content to another article like race pseudohistories where all the garbage about who is what race can be dumped including Nazi historionics, Noachian families, and evolutionary racial hierarchies. ScienceApologist 14:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- An article on Racial myths sounds like a good idea to me too, particularly considering all the other groups which have such myths. This would include the ones mentioned above, the controversy about the Ainu's relation to the Japanese ethnicity, and others as well. John Carter 14:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
ScienceApologist, this is what I am talking about. The article has no business to be in some undefined limbo "outside the bounds of mainstream Egyptology and archaeogenetics", not on Misplaced Pages it doesn't. At present, it is half about serious population history, and half about the most outrageous kookery, and it doesn't distinguish the two. This will not do, cases such as this is why we have this noticeboard, and we will not be done with this article until it is clearly split into one part that is academic, and one that is fringy-but-notable. The present situation is untenable: it is designed to confuse the reader. it is designed to give an academic spin to absolute kookery by conflating valid and invalid terms in the most irresponsible manner. And this is why it needs to be cleaned up and {{split}}. --dab (𒁳) 14:42, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, we're in agreement, dab. Let's go in and separate out the two articles. I'll start the section on the split and defer to your editing expertise for naming/content suggestions. ScienceApologist 15:35, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- The article is supposed to be both about an explanation of the evidence for the appearance of the ancient Egyptians, their genetic relations, as well as controversies surrounding the appearance of them. I think that it would be impractical to split the article into other articles because what we would end up with are a few articles that are hanging out there naked and without context and without anyone willing to work on them. The best course is not to split the article but to understand it's topic, form it in a way that it's clear, understandable and informative. As far as making articles called Racial myths or race pseudohistories, what info would they include concerning the ancient Egyptians? Perhaps the Nordic Egypt, but is that really a "myth" or just simply fringe? What about the idea that ancient Egyptians were "black"? This really isn't a myth or a pseudohistory as there is serious debate and controversy about that topic and there were indeed what most westerners would call "black" ancient Egyptians, except they just weren't ethnic Egyptians. Wikidudeman 02:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of the "black Egyptians" stuff is both pseudohistory and pseudoscience. And a lot is Fringe (although it is on the notable end of Fringe). I am not saying it all is, but a lot of it is. I see nothing wrong with labeling those theories that are pseudohistory/science as pseudo or Fringe theories as being Fringe. Blueboar 12:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- a cleaned up population history of Ancient Egypt would contain a discussion of the racial or phenotypical aspects of AE populations, within the scope of what can be sourced to academic literature. It would however not go into ideological issues of "Black pride", unscholarly polemics, and the topic of Afrocentrism. dab (𒁳) 15:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of the "black Egyptians" stuff is both pseudohistory and pseudoscience. And a lot is Fringe (although it is on the notable end of Fringe). I am not saying it all is, but a lot of it is. I see nothing wrong with labeling those theories that are pseudohistory/science as pseudo or Fringe theories as being Fringe. Blueboar 12:32, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- The article is supposed to be both about an explanation of the evidence for the appearance of the ancient Egyptians, their genetic relations, as well as controversies surrounding the appearance of them. I think that it would be impractical to split the article into other articles because what we would end up with are a few articles that are hanging out there naked and without context and without anyone willing to work on them. The best course is not to split the article but to understand it's topic, form it in a way that it's clear, understandable and informative. As far as making articles called Racial myths or race pseudohistories, what info would they include concerning the ancient Egyptians? Perhaps the Nordic Egypt, but is that really a "myth" or just simply fringe? What about the idea that ancient Egyptians were "black"? This really isn't a myth or a pseudohistory as there is serious debate and controversy about that topic and there were indeed what most westerners would call "black" ancient Egyptians, except they just weren't ethnic Egyptians. Wikidudeman 02:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I oppose a split of this article. I agree with Wikidudeman. ~Jeeny 10:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I know you "oppose". That's apparently because you are unfamiliar with what Misplaced Pages even is. I do not find debate fruitful if one side refuses to acknowledge Misplaced Pages policies. As long as the afrocentrist editors refuse to submit to policy and address the article's issues with honesty, I have no interest in further debate. dab (𒁳) 13:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think that the title "Population history of ancient Egypt" would work. The article is supposed to be about the controversy surrounding the supposed race or ethnicity or "color" of the ancient indigenous Egyptians, not the population history of Egypt. The article needs to elaborate on the afrocentric controversies. Wikidudeman 15:17, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I know you "oppose". That's apparently because you are unfamiliar with what Misplaced Pages even is. I do not find debate fruitful if one side refuses to acknowledge Misplaced Pages policies. As long as the afrocentrist editors refuse to submit to policy and address the article's issues with honesty, I have no interest in further debate. dab (𒁳) 13:50, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikidudeman, there is no such controversy outside afrocentrist propaganda. Feel free to develop a separate Afrocentrist Egyptology article (sheesh, I've been advocating that for weeks). But stop pretending this has anything to do with academia. Bottom line, do one article on Afrocentrist Egyptology, focussing on whatever this is worth, and one about population history of Ancient Egypt, reflecting academic debate on the topic. dab (𒁳) 16:39, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this. Otherwise, why was Frank Snowden discussing what classical sources say about the Egyptians' skin color and appearance? Isn't that an academic source? --Akhilleus (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but one academic source does not mean that the general discussion is an academic one. Also, as has been noted elsewhere, some academics, like Cornel West, take positions which can occasionally be classified as being based on or substantially influenced by racial issues. Departments of "African American Studies" and the like further substantiate this thinking. Simply being an academic does not disqualify one from being part of a group or movement which extends beyond academia into the broader popular culture. In fact, I've always gotten the impression that "newer" social movements and schools of thought tend to be the breeding ground for many of the more publicly noted academic writers, and that the two are often fundamentally related. John Carter 17:29, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I wouldn't agree with saying that Frank Snowden is a fringe source. He was writing in the '70s and '80s, and his work has been established as an authoritative source on race in the ancient world. If the "controversy" we're referring to is the question "were the ancient Egyptians black?" (or, "Was Cleopatra black?") then most of the discussion is outside academia. But the questions about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians, their self-perception, their genetic relationship(s) to other populations, how they were perceived by other ethnic/national groups like the Israelites/Jews, Greeks, and Romans, are all questions that are dealt with in academic sources. Right now, I'm having trouble even figuring out what's under dispute, in part, I suppose, because the things that some people are saying doesn't match my impression of the scholarship. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I have a feeling, based on what one of the editors said above, that the subject of the article is not intended to be what the ancient Egyptians actually were in terms of color/racial identity/whatever, but the controversy that exists today about the subject. If that is the case, then I think that it should probably be made a completely separate article, as most of what it would be discussing is at best peripherally related to the actual discussion of the color/... of the ancient Egyptians per se. And, unfortunately, having worked with a lot of religion articles here, good academics often are among the better sources for goofball theories. In fact, that seems to be how many of the goofball theories start. That isn't meant to impugn the character, integrity, or reliability of these individuals overall, but just saying that being respectable doesn't necessary mean that all their ideas are really good ones. John Carter 18:04, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I wouldn't agree with saying that Frank Snowden is a fringe source. He was writing in the '70s and '80s, and his work has been established as an authoritative source on race in the ancient world. If the "controversy" we're referring to is the question "were the ancient Egyptians black?" (or, "Was Cleopatra black?") then most of the discussion is outside academia. But the questions about the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians, their self-perception, their genetic relationship(s) to other populations, how they were perceived by other ethnic/national groups like the Israelites/Jews, Greeks, and Romans, are all questions that are dealt with in academic sources. Right now, I'm having trouble even figuring out what's under dispute, in part, I suppose, because the things that some people are saying doesn't match my impression of the scholarship. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- In other words, the Race of Ancient Egyptians article is supposed to be centered on the afrocentric fringe theories and pseudohistory/science stuff? That seems fair. I don't think anyone is arguing that such an article should not exist. (While many of the theories are fringe, the whole idea has certainly gained notariety, and thus these theories are notable). So what are the objections to creating Polulation history of Ancient Egypt that focuses on things from the scientific perspective? Blueboar 15:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- If, as is said above, the article is supposed to be about the present controversy, then it would make sense to include the data about the factual "color" of the ancient Egyptians into a separate article. By conflating the two different subjects, what we are doing is implying to the average reader that the theories in the present controversy actually have any real bearing on what the color of the Egyptians actually was. There is quite a bit of content, not included in the article right now, which could and should be included in an article about the actual color of the old Egyptians. This would include such things as how different groups within populations develop over time, how separate populations develop separately and how the results of breeding between populations which had earlier been separated produce new variations, and on and on. Also, there are several facts which would probably be relevant to an article about the factual skin color/apparent racial grouping of the ancient Egyptians which are not currently included. According to Talk:Ramesses II#RED HAIR?, Ramessess II was a redhead. While this not specifically address the matter of skin color, it may well be relevant and important enough to the subject of the "color" of old Egyptians to be included, with some discussion. By trying to indicate that two separate subjects, the factual "color" of the ancient Egyptians and the current discussion of the same subject, both of which are seemingly notable enough for inclusion as separate articles, we are in fact stifling the development of the content regarding both subjects. Theories which have been put forward in enough separate sources qualify for articles on the basis of their own inherent notability, and the current controversy about this subject could certainly be thought to qualify for its own separate article. Having said that, many of these theories can be seen as not relating explicitly to the race of all ancient Egyptians, but only those specific ancient Egyptians we can produce evidence for, who may not have been what we might call "true" ancient Egpyptians. That is an entirely separate subject from what the actual color of "ancient Egyptians" was. There are also several other issues, such as whether Semites are "white" (whatever that means), which are completely irrelevant to the subject of what the actual "color" of the ancient Egyptians was but are inherently relevant to the current discussion. By attempting to shoehorn all these separate ideas and concepts into one article, I think what we are actually doing in some cases is giving those who already have preexisting biases about the subject reason to think they might be right, by trying to "hide what we don't want people to know". The best way available to us to help ensure that people will come to the most accurate conclusions about the subject is by presenting all the evidence, pro and con, for all the ideas discussed. This cannot be done in a single article. We already have several articles which discuss an existing "academic" POV, and there is no reason to think we couldn't do so here. All that is required is to state in the introduction that it is a minority POV. But, creating such articles also gives the opportunity to provide all the evidence to the contrary in a separate section, which cannot be done in a single article on the entire broader subject. WP:POV really only applies to editors pushing their own POV in an article. POVs on subjects in the "real world", if they meet notability requirements, as these do, are an entirely separate matter. John Carter 16:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding Ramses II had red hair. Does anyone not realise that there is scientific evidence that hair color changes after death? And you cannot determine "race" on that alone? BTW, that wiki article on hair color needs a lot of work. ~Jeeny 19:34, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, they do realize that. Please read the section of the talk page linked to above. All that I was saying was that the factual matter of the "color" of the ancient Egyptians has a number of other facts, not currently included in the article, which would not be appropriate if the article is about the modern theories of the color. And no reference to the article about hair color was made or even implied in what I said. John Carter 19:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- All you were saying? Then state it in fewer words. I didn't read the whole thing, because of the huge clump of text. If you want someone to read that mess, then use breaks for easier reading. It's as bad as writing in all CAPS. I hope you don't write articles that way. ~Jeeny 01:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry if you believe that you are capable of responding to comments of others without reading them. Complicated subjects, as this one is, merit discussion of that complexity. In all honesty, that is more or less what this subject is. They cannot be reasonably turned into the 10 second sound bite. Manners apply here, as well. And, of course, I will follow the orders I was so politely given above. John Carter 12:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- All you were saying? Then state it in fewer words. I didn't read the whole thing, because of the huge clump of text. If you want someone to read that mess, then use breaks for easier reading. It's as bad as writing in all CAPS. I hope you don't write articles that way. ~Jeeny 01:41, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, they do realize that. Please read the section of the talk page linked to above. All that I was saying was that the factual matter of the "color" of the ancient Egyptians has a number of other facts, not currently included in the article, which would not be appropriate if the article is about the modern theories of the color. And no reference to the article about hair color was made or even implied in what I said. John Carter 19:58, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- In other words, the Race of Ancient Egyptians article is supposed to be centered on the afrocentric fringe theories and pseudohistory/science stuff? That seems fair. I don't think anyone is arguing that such an article should not exist. (While many of the theories are fringe, the whole idea has certainly gained notariety, and thus these theories are notable). So what are the objections to creating Polulation history of Ancient Egypt that focuses on things from the scientific perspective? Blueboar 15:46, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually quite a few reliable and notable scholars have gotten in on the discussion of the ethnicity of the ancient Egyptians and what color their skin was, etc. See the sources in the actual article. Wikidudeman 00:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
FFS, Wikidudeman, then why doesn't the article discuss the work of "reliable and notable scholars" and goes for this Diop character instead? Can we decide whether this article is even supposed to be on reliable scholarship, soon? and if so, clean out all the cranks? I have no objection of a discussion of AE ethnicity, as long as only academic sources are used. dab (𒁳) 13:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- The article is "supposed" to be about the race (or ethnicity) of the ancient Egyptians and this includes controversy of the subject. There are both reliable figures and fringe figures who are notable as far as the subject goes and both need to be discussed. The afrocentric scholars need to be discussed, even if they are fringe simply because they are notable to the topic. No one is using them as sources of factual claims about the actual race of the ancient Egyptians. Wikidudeman 17:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- If the article is supposed to be a serious discussion about the race or ethnicity of ancient Egyptians (as opposed to really being about the controversy over the afrocentric theories)... then there are serious Undue Weight issues to be considered in bringing up all these frings theories. At best, the fringe stuff would rate brief paragraph saying something like: "Recently, there has been some controversy due to various theories put forward by afrocentric authors such as (insert list of authors here)" followed by a very short synopsis of why what they say is controvercial.
- If, on the other hand, the article is supposed to be about the controvercy, then I could see going into more detail on what these theories say (and much less detail as to the serious accademic/historical/scientific issues). But to mix the reliable stuff with the fringe stuff gives undue weight to the fringe stuff. Blueboar 18:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- Having seen the user pages of Jeeny, Wikidudeman, and Taharka, there seems to me to be the very serious possibility that these three individuals may be, knowingly or unknowingly, ascribing greater importance to a theory which they may, as individuals, place greater importance on than is necessarily merited. The fact that Wikidudeman has changed his statement about what the intended scope of this article in his comments above certainly doesn't help make me think otherwise. I don't think violations of NPOV stop becoming violations simply because a group of people support it. I'm not however necessarily saying that is the case here. Certainly, presenting all the fringe theories about a given idea in a comparatively short article does give those theories undue weight, particularly when the facts themselves in this case are given as little space as they are. On this basis, I have every reason to believe that either the removal of a good deal of the content regarding the current fringe theories needs to be removed from the article, or the article needs to be split into separate articles on the facts themselves and the current theories. Otherwise, the article will continue to give undue weight to those fringe theories. I cannot see how the range of fringe theories can be discussed in the same article as the relevant facts without also giving those facts a significantly greater amount of content than they already have. John Carter 12:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- It's time we start over from the beginning and work together to improve the article whichever way is best. If that includes splitting it into another article then that's what we'll need to do. I've started a new post on the articles talk page to get a solid consensus for the actual name of the article. Once there is a consensus for the name of the article, I will then ask everyone to briefly describe how the article should be presented ideally, including splitting it nor not splitting it. Once that is done then we can start working on the article and doing what needs to be done to improve it. Wikidudeman 13:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Having seen the user pages of Jeeny, Wikidudeman, and Taharka, there seems to me to be the very serious possibility that these three individuals may be, knowingly or unknowingly, ascribing greater importance to a theory which they may, as individuals, place greater importance on than is necessarily merited. The fact that Wikidudeman has changed his statement about what the intended scope of this article in his comments above certainly doesn't help make me think otherwise. I don't think violations of NPOV stop becoming violations simply because a group of people support it. I'm not however necessarily saying that is the case here. Certainly, presenting all the fringe theories about a given idea in a comparatively short article does give those theories undue weight, particularly when the facts themselves in this case are given as little space as they are. On this basis, I have every reason to believe that either the removal of a good deal of the content regarding the current fringe theories needs to be removed from the article, or the article needs to be split into separate articles on the facts themselves and the current theories. Otherwise, the article will continue to give undue weight to those fringe theories. I cannot see how the range of fringe theories can be discussed in the same article as the relevant facts without also giving those facts a significantly greater amount of content than they already have. John Carter 12:56, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- The article is "supposed" to be about the race (or ethnicity) of the ancient Egyptians and this includes controversy of the subject. There are both reliable figures and fringe figures who are notable as far as the subject goes and both need to be discussed. The afrocentric scholars need to be discussed, even if they are fringe simply because they are notable to the topic. No one is using them as sources of factual claims about the actual race of the ancient Egyptians. Wikidudeman 17:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Schechtman's "Fear Psychosis Theory" in Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus
Hello all,
There's something of a low-key edit-war going on at Causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus regarding the inclusion (or not) of a theory by Joseph Schechtman, a "historian" who has been discredited for grossly misquoting sources by the Author Erskine Childers (UN) (much in the same way Joan Peters who, interestingly enough, quotes Schechtman excessively, was unmasked by Norman Finkelstein). This was later acknowledged by the historian Stephen Glazer (Glazer, Steven. (Summer 1980) The Palestinian Exodus in 1948. Published by Journal of Palestine Studies, Vol. 9, No. 4.) and not refuted since.
The "theory" presented is called the Fear Psychosis Theory, which implies that Palestinians were so obsessed with there own atrocities towards Jews, that they developed a Psychosis (yep, you read that correctly, a mental disorder) that the same cruelty would be bestowed upon them in retaliation. The text used in the article is
“ | Schechtman, argues in his book The Arab Refugee Problem that a large part of the exodus was caused by a phenomenon which he calls The Fear Psychosis, namely Arab fear of attack, reprisal and the other stresses of war. Schechtman himself attributes this to purely to the perspective of the refugees. He expounds this theory as follows:
|
” |
This, in my opinion, qualifies as a fringe theory and should be removed. The most pertinent arguments are:
- The attribution of a mental disorder to an entire population as a "cause" for their exodus during a war.
- The claim "no quarter whatsoever had ever been given to a Jew who fell into Arab hands" is provably false.
- The theory is not supported by other authors.
- Joseph Schechtman, according to his own Misplaced Pages entry, was the chairman of the Association of American Zionists-Revisionists, which later became part of the WZO, on whose executive committee he served until 1970, thus hardly an impartial commentator.
Schechtman's defenders in this article point out that while no other authors support his theory, he is nevertheless quoted. This is true, but in most cases he is quoted for other things (Morris, for instance, quotes him only for his analogies to the Muslim-Hindu transfer in 1947-8), to rip him to pieces (e.g. Glazer, Childers or Finkelstein).
This dispute regarding Schechtman has been going on for a while and seems to be headed towards a WP:RFAR. It would be nice to get some "professional" opinions here before it lands there.
Cheers and thanks, pedro gonnet - talk - 26.10.2007 06:18
P.S. You can follow the talk-page discussion here.
- the question seems to be Proportional weight. As people will have seen the material--the theory, whatever its validity, has fairly widespread circulation-- there should be some mention of it. Give a sentence or two, and then the refutation. WP is not concerned with demonstrating the truth of the matter, just the views. DGG (talk) 03:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Assyria-Germany connection
It doesn't get any more fringy than that. No notability apparent, at all. dab (𒁳) 10:10, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- It is about as far-fetched as the Hungarian-Sumer theory.--Berig 15:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Jiroft civilization
I've stumbled on this with suspicion in the past, and now, in the light of this review, it is clear that this article falls within the scope of this noticeboard. Extensive reviewing and rewriting needed. dab (𒁳) 15:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Though not an expert, i have read through the review here--it was carried out in 2004--do you know if there are any later publications? I note in the WP article the section of "writing cites an article in Science "Andrew Lawler, Ancient Writing or Modern Fakery?, Science 3 August 2007: Vol. 317. no. 5838, pp. 588 - 589.", I have a copy, which I can send to anyone interested. from that and this, it seems obvious that this entire article needs to be rewritten in an altogether different manner. DGG (talk) 03:09, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
it's difficult to judge. Apparently important discoveries were made, but the excavators in their enthusiasm of having found an "ancient civilization" in the middle of the "Iranian homeland" went completely cranky for joy and began presenting fantastic dates and far-out claims. I imagine this topic is tied up in Iranian national mysticism, and we'll have to be aware of this when evaluating sources. dab (𒁳) 12:58, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Evp1.png listed for deletion
An image, Image:Evp1.png, has been listed at Misplaced Pages:Images and media for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Thank you. ScienceApologist 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC) ScienceApologist 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Green fireballs
I think that Green fireballs may need some balance. Bubba73 (talk), 05:21, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed it does " Many Ufologists consider the green fireballs to be among the best documented examples of unidentified flying objects (UFOs)." (I think "many" refers to Lincoln LaPaz) or "everybody agreed they were a real phenomenon" -- that's just the lede, & it goes on similarly. Illustrated with a painting claimed to represent the object--a painting by Mrs. Lincoln LaPaz. DGG (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- It's not awful but there are some statements that either need serious ref.s or to be removed. --Rocksanddirt 23:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed it does " Many Ufologists consider the green fireballs to be among the best documented examples of unidentified flying objects (UFOs)." (I think "many" refers to Lincoln LaPaz) or "everybody agreed they were a real phenomenon" -- that's just the lede, & it goes on similarly. Illustrated with a painting claimed to represent the object--a painting by Mrs. Lincoln LaPaz. DGG (talk) 21:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- I checked it yesterday before I listed it here, and it used to be a lot worse. I tried working it a couple of years ago and had no luck. Bubba73 (talk), 23:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Antireductionism
This article is awful. Adam Cuerden 23:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Also A Guide for the Perplexed. Adam Cuerden 23:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Gracious. a complicated several paragraphs to say not very much. I tried to make it followable, at least in part. --Rocksanddirt 23:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Just a note... Antireductionism probably isn't a fringe theory. It's a fairly common view among mainstream philosophers of science and philosophers doing metaphysics (in the academic, not new age, sense of 'metaphysics'). Fireplace 01:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- But is what is here being described the same as the antireductionism used there? Adam Cuerden 09:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- This article discusses a topic better known as, and better covered at holism in science. And, yes, it's not quite a fringe theory - scientists including Ilya Prigogine and Murray Gell-Mann have advanced rigorous ideas that could fairly be described as antireductionist, and disciplines such as complexity theory are based on an antireductionist viewpoint. Still, the article itself is ugly and POV. I was especially amused by the quote about "psychiatric hubris". I suggest antireductionism be redirected to holism in science, and any usable material (it doesn't look like there's much, if any) be integrated into that article. Skinwalker 14:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I redirected it, but the creator reverted me. What now? Adam Cuerden 15:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I asked him to come over and talk about it. I really don't see how antireductionism and holism differ, but I'm willing to listen. Skinwalker 16:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I redirected it, but the creator reverted me. What now? Adam Cuerden 15:51, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- they may be fundamentally the same, but biologists do use antireductionism as the concept. I think of it as much more narrow than the general concept of holism. There could be more specific documentation there. A redirect is in my opinion much too limiting, and altogether too drastic a use of BOLD. DGG (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, I've heard biologists use the term, but perhaps I've never understood the distinction between it and holism. What, specifically, is the difference between the two? Cheers, Skinwalker 18:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- This article discusses a topic better known as, and better covered at holism in science. And, yes, it's not quite a fringe theory - scientists including Ilya Prigogine and Murray Gell-Mann have advanced rigorous ideas that could fairly be described as antireductionist, and disciplines such as complexity theory are based on an antireductionist viewpoint. Still, the article itself is ugly and POV. I was especially amused by the quote about "psychiatric hubris". I suggest antireductionism be redirected to holism in science, and any usable material (it doesn't look like there's much, if any) be integrated into that article. Skinwalker 14:47, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- But is what is here being described the same as the antireductionism used there? Adam Cuerden 09:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- As for guide to the perplexed, I removed the final section which is pure speculation. Let's see if it sticks. DGG (talk) 17:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps you arch-deletionists can explain your rationale for wishing to delete this article at this particular time. thanks Peter morrell 18:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- We did give reasons: NPOV, unclear writing, and possible redundancy with a better article. Could you address my question instead of calling us names? What is the difference between antireductionism and holism? If they are not the same thing, then clearly there is no rationale for merging the articles - I just want to understand the distinction between the two. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
When you have answered my question I will explain why antireductionism is different from holism. Given that you do not know the difference speaks for itself: why are you even editing this article? which brings me back to my point - why now? why merge them? what is your motivation? You are certainly both arch-deletionlists; that is not name calling, it is an observation of fact. Peter morrell 19:38, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I did, in fact, answer your question in my previous post:
"We did give reasons: NPOV, unclear writing, and possible redundancy with a better article."
- So what's the difference between the two terms? Cheers, Skinwalker 19:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
You can carry on like this if you wish but until you answer my questions it's a no go. Read what I wrote for example and answer the specific points. Thusfar you have not. Peter morrell 20:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, fine.
- Why now? No time like the present. I poke around on this noticeboard from time to time and saw this discussion, and felt I had something to contribute.
- Why merge them? Because, as I understood it originally, holism and antireductionism are synonyms. I have heard them used interchangeable in the context of systems dynamics and complex systems. As I saw it, this article verged on being a POV fork. I'm trying to get someone to explain the difference between the two terms to me - if they are different, then a merge is not appropriate.
- What's my motivation? My motivations are upholding NPOV and making sure fringe topics are not given undue weight. Peter, you've made many good contributions in non-scientific articles, but your editing in areas of science and pseudoscience show a strong POV. You also seem unable to perceive this POV. You've started articles like antiscience, scientific imperialism, fragmentalism, antireductionism, and several others that are non-neutral, poorly cited, and largely represent original research and inappropriate synthesis. Experience has shown me that your edits in these areas need scrutiny.
- Now, please, enlighten me as to the difference between antireductionism and holism, and I'll shut up. Cheers, Skinwalker 20:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for YOUR POV. If this is so then why was it Adam who made the action? however, in relation to the question, AR is really a suspicion on the part of many, esp in the social sciences, but also in portions of biology, that reductionism is too simplistic for adequately describing complex systems and processes and that it innately oversimplifies and thus distorts and misleads. Especially in ecology and weather systems for example. Such folks do not believe that reductionism inherently can generate the answers it promises: it can prove to be non-insightful. Holism by contrast believes that phenomena in general are best perceived as wholes rather than via analysis of parts. I agree these are close to each other but holism is probably the broader concept and I would say they are different precisely because both terms occur in academic discourse...which kind of justifies their separate inclusion here. Also I would say the AR article is much better than the other one which is very poorly ref'd and too generalised to be of much use. It looks like a rag bag mix of all sorts of odd stuff simply thrown together. I guess you will disagree. What attracts you to fringe theories as you like to call them? and why clean them up when embryogenesis and embryology cry out to be merged but I don't see you two banging on about that. BTW I am a zoologist by training so I disagree with your view of my understanding of what science is. If you do merge them then please merge them proper rather than deleting whole swathes of stuff. OK? cheers Peter morrell
- ...Peter, I'm studying zoology. How much actual training did you get? Adam Cuerden 20:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by actual training? I completed my degree and after a couple of years went into teaching mostly environmental science and ecology plus some bio and biochemistry and a lot of fieldwork and pollution studies type stuff, very enjoyable. More recently an MPhil in history. does that suffice? how is this relevant? I think my doubting view of some aspects of science stems from teaching about nuclear power and ecology which cannot be fully understood via reductionism; you have to look at social issues, politics and economics or at complex organism interactions--the wider picture--to get a grip of them both; apart from which scepticism of science claims is a good thing and in my case that flows from my study of sociology and philosophy for my MPhil which are core aspects for understanding historical processes. The world is not as black and white as science pretends and science is largely profit-driven sadly so you cannot separate the scientific view of life from these background realities of it as an enterprise. It is very largely a belief system little different from a religion. sorry I have rambled on. Peter morrell 21:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- If the two of you want to argue on the basis of credentials, go find a more appropriate project. Keep your educational background for your user pages. We go by evidence here, not status, and we have to convince one another and reach some agreement. And, it doesnt depend on personal views. I may be myself very much of an extreme rationalist and reductionalist, but still know there's a different position. (or vice versa). I know there.
- I'm not sure about the sciences, but in mainstream academic philosophy, holism about science/physics/biology/scientific laws/etc and antireductionism about the same are generally used interchangeably. However, the holism in science article is poorly written and misses a lot of the major, mainstream academic points. I'd slap both articles with a cleanup tag and hope that an expert with plenty of time comes along to tackle them. Fireplace 01:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Merge discussion
Should ghost lights merge to will o' the wisp? See Talk:ghost light. ScienceApologist 00:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Request for comment
Talk:Quackwatch#Request for Comments. Thanks. ScienceApologist 02:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Promoter of fringe theories at it again
Christos Papachristopoulos (AKA ChrysJazz (talk · contribs) or 77.49.178.72 (talk · contribs) is at it again, promoting his own philosophy (especially at articles related to Albert Camus). Prime examples: Nuclear Philosophy of Media and Mathemagics. An AfD established that the guy's bio was non-notable, so his philosophy definitely should not be here. Any advice on the quickest way to proceed to put a stop to all this would be greatly appreciated. --Folantin 10:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- I vote for "speedy delete" as advertising, conflict of interest, and patent nonsense. Adam Cuerden 15:12, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, and I also blocked him. Adam Cuerden 16:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good. This guy was never going to follow WP policy. --Folantin 16:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Why is his IP only temporarily blocked? -- Fyslee / talk 19:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- IPs can be shared among a great number of users, so it's good practice not to indef block IPs except in extreme circumstances. Adam Cuerden 19:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- That makes sense. -- Fyslee / talk 22:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- IPs can be shared among a great number of users, so it's good practice not to indef block IPs except in extreme circumstances. Adam Cuerden 19:30, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Why is his IP only temporarily blocked? -- Fyslee / talk 19:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Good. This guy was never going to follow WP policy. --Folantin 16:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Oh, and I also blocked him. Adam Cuerden 16:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Paranormal infoboxes
There are a number of paranormal infoboxes:
- Template:Infobox Paranormalplaces
- Template:Infobox Paranormalcreatures
- Template:Infobox encounters
- Template:Infobox Paranormalevents
- Template:Infobox Paranormalterms
An interesting argument was put forth by another user at Talk:Electronic voice phenomenon that these boxes might be serving as a runaround for WP:NPOV because they promote "in universe" definitions and classifications. What makes a place, creature, encounter, person, event, or term "paranormal"?
I'm not sure about this and so I am posting it here for input. Do infoboxes of these sorts serve to prevent verifiable and accurate framing of encyclopedic subjects? Should perhaps these infoboxes be deleted in the interest of preserving WP:NPOV?
ScienceApologist 17:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, it's the other way around, all of the infoboxes ensure the correct framing of a page. As per the Arbcom, explicitely describing something as being part of the paranormal immediately frames the topic and tells the reader everything that they need to know before they begin reading. You simply can't mistake something with any of these infoboxes for anything other than part of the paranormal. The framing is so blunt that it hits you right between the eyes the second that you look at the page. This actually preserves WP:NPOV, with one of these infoboxes there is absolutely no mistaking the topic for anything else.
In many cases, removing the infobox would actually be EXTREME POV PUSHING. For example, if I were to remove the paranormal terminology infobox from an entry about a disputed gravity phenomona relating to spooks or UFOs (etc) and were to replace it with a physics taxonomy box about gravity, I would be making the EXPLICIT statement that the disputed gravity phenomona was an accepted part of physic, or that it was at least based on physics. Even if I were to replace it with a disputed science taxonomy box (the closest thing that there is to the paranormal terminology box at present) I would still be implying that there was scientific rationale somewhere in the process. Both of which are clearly unacceptable. Even by removing the box altogether I would still be breaching Wikiregs by committing a WP:Point violation because I'd be removing valid information about the noun or phrase in popular culture because I disagreed with the place of the topic (that the noun or phrase was describing) in the natural order. I'd also be in breach of the recent Arbcom which stated that something that exists in belief is valid so long as it is framed correctly, regardless of the topics place in science.
perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hmmm, not sure. While not a huge fan of info boxes generally, I know that some people like them a lot. If the use of the boxes seems NPOV, or seems to create a "walled garden" atmosphere the use or text in the boxes should be examined closely, and maybe adjusted. I would rather not get rid of them altogether. --Rocksanddirt 17:45, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
They are actually stated as being a highly desirable inclusion for FA status. Thus removing these infoboxes would more or less deny any paranormal entry, no matter how well written and NPOV the chance to reach FA status. I personally don't see how defining a noun or phrase would create a "Walled Garden", if users dispute the contents of a box then they can just put up a Fact tag and request citable evidence that the definition is accurate. For example, the word "Ghost" is in the dictionary, therefore it is verifiable as a real and existing noun. Do people claim that it's inclusion in the dictionary is POV pushing, no, then they claim isn't valid here either.
- perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- "This infobox is for "real" terms and phenomenal only. It is only to be used whether said term/phenomona is verifiable to a notable source that is not a work of pure fiction (eg, nothing used only on Ghost Hunters and nothing that exists only in the X-files). "Real" refers only to the existence of the terminology, or to belief in the phenomona, not to the substance of what is being described."
- Specific instructions for use of the Infobox appear designed to significantly bend NPOV/FRINGE policy:
- "Definition: A PURE DICTIONARY DEFINITION. Avoid all words such as alleged, purported, so called etc) avoid attributions. This is a definition of the word, not a judgment on the validity of what it is describing."
Where are the contradictions? Real terminology only, no words from the X-files etc, must comply with Wikiregs. Besides, most of this is actually standard practice on Misplaced Pages has been part of the MOS for quite a while. Please see WP:WTA for further information it tells you to avoid all pejorative language. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, those are definitely problematic statements. The question is, what to do about them? I'm not sure that simply rewording those statements is a solution because the very way the infoboxes are set-up seem to encourage this kind of thinking. Even if the statements weren't as explicit, conceivably we could end up with people making such arguments just because the infoboxes are supposed to be explicitly about the "paranormal". ScienceApologist 22:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Please don't twist things. A "real" term or phenomona is one that complies with WP:V and WP:RS. Real it's the opposite to Fiction or neologism. As was clearly stated underneath. I've changed the wording, your argument is now void. You may delete it if you wish. If you have an issue with the wording in an infobox, then that should be met at the article level. Deleting the template because you disagree with something that a third party has written in it would be a point violation. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Being invited here by LuckyLouie, I'm concerned with this motion mainly because it does not make any sense. To remove templates related to commonly used paranormal terms and their accepted paranormal definitions would set the standard to eliminate templates for Occult topics because occult topics are not 'mainstream' enough - or templates for any number of subjects not generally related to science or the mainstream. I see no problem with Paranormal templates on paranormally framed subjects in light of accepted template practice here at Misplaced Pages. For an example of what the 'paranormal community' or 'world' or 'believers' or 'investigators' etc. use as paranormal terms see this - if that is a concern as I've seen on the EVP talk page. --Northmeister 01:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Your argument of the slippery slope does not hold water. Like most religions, many, if not most, of the subjects of the "occult" deal with beliefs that do not claim direct observable consequences. For example, the Necronomicon, while not mainstream, does not deal with observable consequences and so is immune from this criticism. We are concerned here with topics that fall under the purview of (ostensibly) observable phenomena. That's the issue with the "paranormal". The very definition of the term is an assault on the mainstream, majority understanding of what an observation is. In contrast, most of the Occult topics are attempting to access something other than that, like an unobservable and intangible human soul or spirit world. ScienceApologist 01:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Belief is an observable phenomona and a noun such as "Ghost" is a definable term. your argument is void. You may delete it is you wish. Also, the recent Arbcom clearly stated that notably beliefs outside of the mainstream are valid for inclusion. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see the assault on the mainstream when the article is about the non-mainstream. Especially a topic science has little concern for. The boxes are guides on what the 'paranormal' field considers and don't try to convey any other meaning outside of that. --Northmeister 03:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- This sentiment flies in the face of WP:NPOV, WP:FRINGE, and WP:WEIGHT in particular. ScienceApologist 03:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think they do at all. Such an argument would weigh against all infoboxes related to subjects of concern. --Northmeister 04:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed, ScienceApologist's arguments could be applied to any infoxobx or taxobox included on any controversial topic. It could also be used against any controversial category (anything mentioning homosexuality or race, for example, which amounts to censorship, which is against the Misplaced Pages ethos). I am also at a loss to understand how SA could object to a pure dictionary definition of a noun of phrase being included with a topic unless of course SA's issue was really with the topic and not with the definition, in which case the recent Arbcom has already struck down SA's argument (see layer cake decision) - perfectblue 10:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
ScienceApologist, your sentiment flies in the face of the recent Arbcom which stated clearly that topics which are notable but which are outside of the mainstream remain valid topics. - perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm in the camp that doesn't like infoboxes in general. That said, these particular boxes are mostly used by WP:PARANORMAL, so if you're looking for input from the actual users of the boxes, or just another point of view, you might want to post a notice there. --Nealparr 05:12, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I am seriously concerned that this discussion is even happening. As the creator of 75% of these info boxes I can clearly and unequivocally state that they were created for the purpose of providing basic definitions of what a term means or how a phenomena is described (even if a phenomona isn't actually real, it's still efinable). If users have a POV issue with their content then this should be dealt with at the article level, not at the template level. All of these templates are fully citable and comply with all WP regs.
I'm afraid that the removal of these boxes would constitute a WP:Point violation and would set a very bad president as it would in essence be saying that no Paranormal entry can ever have an infobox because the presence of an infobox would be POV pushing that the paranormal was real, when in fact all the presence of an infobox does is show that the term is definable on paper.
To answer some of the above questions
- Do "infoboxes of these sorts serve to prevent verifiable and accurate framing of encyclopedic subjects" - ScienceApologist
No. As per the recent Arbcom ruling, the infoboxes clearly display the word "Paranormal" thus providing full and accurate framing. A user can in no way mistake then for a scientific taxonomy box. What they do is they provide a pure definition explaining exactly what a term actually means and in what context it is being used.
Let me put this into context. The Paranormal terminology box was put in place to explain how a particular word or phrase should be used and in what context it is used, it also explains the origins of the word and its limitations of use. In essence, it is the purest form of encyclopedic content.
Template:Infobox Paranormalterms
- "Specific instructions for use of the Infobox appear designed to significantly bend NPOV/FRINGE policy" - LuckyLouie
I have changed this, your argument is now void, you may delete it if you wish. I however hold that all paranormal content must include a pure definition. For example while ghosts might be a controversial entities with no scientific verification, the word "ghost" is quite clearly a noun with a defined meaning and definition. The infobox defines the noun, not the entity.
perfectblue 09:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- OK let me get this straight, these infoboxes violate NPOV because they use the term "Paranormal"? that seems illogical, paranormal is a term comonly used within the scientific community when refering to something with no scientific confirmation. Another thing how does this present something from a "in universe" perspective? we are talking about material that is unconfirmed or unexplained not a fictional work. - Caribbean~H.Q. 10:08, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Earlier this year an Arbcom actually that introducing something as being paranormal was effective framing. It also ruled 8-0 that a lot of paranormal terminology has the status of being a cultural artifact used to describe or define something in belief or culture, rather than in science, and thus it's inclusion or use cannot be POV pushing for the scientific existence of said terminology.
The same arbcom also ruled 8-1 that the aim of an entry about the paranormal is to inform the readers about the topic and the debate surrounding it, NOT to produce an entry that reaches a scientifically valid conclusion on the topic. Therefore it is valid to include a definition and a description of the terminology used in the topic or the event which is said to have occurred in the topic. Any disputed over the nature of this description or definition should be dealt with at the article level, not the template level.
In relation to the above, I will pose the question "Have any of these infoboxes been used with fictional terms?" if so then they should be removed. Whether in universe or out of universe, these infoboxes should only be used for verifiable real world terms. For example, if it was made up fo rthe X-files and exists only within the X-files, then it shouldn't use this infobox'
- I already had a dispute with perfectblue about this subject on the Crop Circle page, so I won't repeat much of what I said there. In a nutshell, I think the presence of the infobox there is a severe breach of NPOV policy, since it asserts that crop circles are a paranormal phenomenon when all the evidence we have says they are made by humans. I think this is a good example of how the concept of "framing" can be abused to give the wrong impression. Sheffield Steelstalk 14:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- As I said back there, Misplaced Pages has two seperate types of box, the taxonomy box and the infobox. Only the taxonomy boxes assert legitimacy, infoboxes merely provide an overview of the topic in a particular context. For example, the page Batman has an infobox, but nobody would seriously consider that this POV pushed for batman being a real person. There's a superhero infobox on the superman page but nobody seriously considers this POV pushing for super heros being real, or for superpowers being real.
- Besides, half of the infoboxes listed allow for it to be specifically stated that something has been debunked. If you are so concerned about this, wouldn't the logical answer be to ensure that all of them have this feature. For example, the paranormal creatures box has a status section where you can say who debunked it and when, while the paranormal terms box has one that allows you to add a custom field with debunking information in it.
- Most boxes don't actually have the capacity to POV as they don't include anywhere for the POV pushing to take place. most simply contain definitions and descriptions which are all fully in compliance with the arb om by being labeled as being paranormal which tells the reader everythign that they need to know about the topic.
- As for the crop circles, what, the box actually contained only basic and verifiable information that is not in dispute. For example that crop circles were made from bent or broken crops. What's POV pushing about that? It's not as if the infobox said "made by spooks and aliens" is it?
- Infoboxes, like categories and images, are intended to provide additional context and handy links. They should not be used to represent or advance a controversial POV, and if there's a dispute, then the infobox should not be applied to that article until the dispute is resolved. MastCell 18:51, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Except that they are not being used to represent a POV in this case. The recent arbcom (see above for links) already determined that labeling something as being paranormal doesn't imply that the paranormal actually exists. For example, it determined that you can call somebody a psychic because the term psychic is a cultural epitaph, and thus doing so is not POV pushing that the psychic person actually has psychic powers, or that psychic are real anywhere other than in popular culture.
- In fact, NOT labeling something as being paranormal would be POV pushing. If I went around and swapped all of the paranormal creatures infoboxes for zoology infoboxes, that would imply that the creatures are real, as it is they are all clearly and unambiguously labeled as being otherwise.
- Let's say that you used the standard wiki-alternatives. That would mean that paranormal researchers' biographical information would have to be listed using the same boxes as scientist or academics, and that debunked cryptids would have to use the same boxes as real proven creatures, and that Ufology physics would use the same boxes as real physics. That would be a million times worse and I would be the first person on this board to change them. In fact that was one of the reasons why I created some of these infoboxes in the first place, to clearly and unambiguously label certain pages and to distinguish them from all else.
- I find it contrary to logic that these boxes could be accused of claiming that the paranormal is scientifically valid when they in fact do all that they can to divide them from science and to provide an alternative to the existing scientific boxes.
I've recently come across (and added to) {{autism rights movement}} and {{autism cure movement}}. They may reflect POV and may be alternate sides of the same coin; I haven't read enough of the articles to sort it all out, but on the surface, they seem to fall into the same territory as this paranormal template discussion. Almost nothing in the autism rights movement template is cited, and many of the articles are unsourced essays or POV, so I'm also wondering about the best use of templates to possibly advance POV. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Templates are for ease of use. The Autism templates above simply direct persons to other articles in the same light. Nothing wrong with them. --Northmeister 20:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Capture bonding
Appears to be pseudoscience, much of it devoted to promoting the views of a single editor (User:Hkhenson, in real life Keith Henson). Has been the subject of much debate in the past, including an aborted attempt at mediation. I would welcome more opinions before taking this to AfD, and possibly recommending action against the editor. Physchim62 (talk) 13:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- The article could be nominated for AfD, perhaps some bits would eventually be merged into Stockholm syndrome, which is much more notable and seems to be the same thing.
- Hkhenson is currently involved with you and I in a case at Arbcom. I suggest that any actions required against Hkhenson should be discussed at Arbcom, and that attempts to get sanctions placed elsewhere could be viewed as forum shopping. - Jehochman 15:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, isn't this amusing.
- First to respond to Jehochman, the evolved capture bonding psychological mechanism is distinct from its symptom "Stockholm syndrome" the same way "fever" is distinct from the combination of diseases and physiological mechanisms that cause fevers.
- I can't respond to Physchim62's accusation of an "aborted attempt at mediation" for legal reasons outside the scope of Misplaced Pages, but interested parties can probably figure them out. Physchim62 *might* be taking advantage of these limits placed on my ability to speak freely imposed by a corrupt judicial system.
- The current version of capture-bonding had the evolutionary psychology section restored against my wishes. I happen to be an expert (publications, Google "keith henson" "capture-bonding") in this area who is being driven away from the Misplaced Pages by topic clueless editors and admins. The current version, for reasons described at the bottom of Talk:Capture_bonding is unacceptable. I *support* AfD of capture-bonding in its current form. People who are interested can use Google instead. Within the first page are pointers to several decent explanations.
- Physchim62 has a lot of nerve going after after me for "pseudoscience" after supporting Sadi Carnot (reverting a ban). Sadi is perhaps the most impressive pseudoscience attack against Misplaced Pages on record. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot/Evidence. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sadi Carnot/Workshop and other places such as Wikipedia_talk:Conflict_of_interest#Scientists_and_Experts You might be interested in this transplanted from Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Sadi_Carnot/Evidence#Physchim62_is_being_uncivil_among_other_thing
- Physchim62, could you describe what Xerox sales or management techniques have in common with what the SLA did to Patty Hearst to induce capture-bonding? (". . . blindfolded, imprisoned in a narrow closet, and physically and sexually abused.") To the best of my knowledge there are none, but I have not been a customer of Xerox for a long time. Keith Henson 21:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, actually! Both depend on controlling the social interactions of the individual concerned. Only an explanation of this type will explain all of the phenomena which people try to associate with "capture-bonding". Physchim62 (talk) 15:36, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
- Physchim62's Reply to Hkhenson
- "Yes Keith, I consider your views to be pseudoscience and your actions in forcing them on Misplaced Pages, to the exclusion of other points of view, to be disruptive."
- I happen to be an engineer by training rather than a scientist, but "pseudoscience" is an extremely serious charge Physchim62 is bringing against me. Unlike the situation with crackpot scientists, large number of people can die if engineers believe in pseudoscience.
- I resent Physchim62 sticking me in the same bin as Sadi Carnot. On the subject of evolutionary psychology, I believe my views are essentially congruent with those of the major researchers in the field.
- Or is Physchim62 claiming evolutionary psychology is pseudoscience?
- Is Physchim62 qualified to judge my views? If not, has he asked a qualified person to judge them? (I don't think Physchim62 did much of a job judging Sadi Carnot's obvious pseudoscience.)
- As for "forcing them on Misplaced Pages, to the exclusion of other points of view" that is another very serious accusation, the kind of accusation that leads to arbitration rulings. Is Physchim62 ready to provide evidence?
- This isn't distracting from the discussion about dealing with reoccurring Sadi Carnot cases because admins who enable and reward such behavior (as Physchim62 did in capture-bonding) are a significant part of the problem.
- After due consideration, Physchim62 are you certain you don't want to retract these accusation? Keith Henson 20:51, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Keith Henson 03:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Ugh. Is there any source that's not by Keith Henson that uses the term "capture bonding"? I mean a reliable source, not . The sources that are by Keith Henson are published in sources like The Human Nature Review, which appears not to be peer reviewed. This article looks like a bunch of self-promoting pseudoscience to me. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sanity check, that was one of my reactions. I have decided to take this article to AfD, and so maybe further discussion can be placed HERE. Physchim62 (talk) 16:57, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Comments requested
Comments anyone can make on my proposal here would be most appreciated. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Gibbs Paradox
In Gibbs paradox, Lin Shukun has been adding massive amounts of material which references his own works. He seems to be applying information theory to thermodynamics. Given that Lin Shukun is self-published by the same publishing house that publishes Libb Thims (a.k.a. User:Sadi Carnot and User:Wavesmikey), and the historic misapplication of information theory to things like evolution, I'm skeptical. Will someone please check this out?Kww 14:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Problematic claims, inappropriate tone at Battle of Saragarhi & related walled-garden
Battle of Saragarhi is a persuasive essay written to convince the reader that a last-stand siege involving 21 Sikh troopers is the most important battle in history, and possibly the greatest single event ever. The casualty figures given fail the laugh test (229 attackers killed per defender in a half-day battle with bolt action rifles), and many vital claims are unsourced or poorly sourced. The entire article may trace to a 1987 book by non-academics, filtered through various Indian Army fan-sites and self-published blogs. The sole clearly legitimate source is a Daily Telegraph article, but I seriously wonder whether it was written based on this Misplaced Pages article or some other unreliable source! Worst of all, the article is laced with nationalist hagiography and even racialist claims about the inherent ferocity of the Sikhs. There is also a smallish walled-garden of articles including Saragarhi Day and Havildar Ishar Singh which just replicate the main article, as well as some references in other, "normal" articles like Sikh which may need cleanup. There appears to be at least one editor threatening a revert war if anyone so much as questions this piece, so I'd appreciate some wider community input. <eleland/talkedits> 06:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I tried to improve it a little bit. The 1:229 ratio is hard to believe, I admit, but this does seem to have been a freak incident, and we'll have to accept that's what the sources given state. dab (𒁳) 09:14, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'll try and check a couple contemporary newspapers. Adam Cuerden 10:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
based on this, it appears the Thermopylae comparison is flawed after all. The 4,800 dead Afghans were the entire casualties of that day, presumably not only due to the 21 heroes at Saragarhi. There was notably a relief party of 93 led by Haughton, and who knows what else. Assuming 93+21 instead of just 21 already results in a ratio of 1:88 instead of 1:476. The calculation in any case appears to be WP:SYN. dab (𒁳) 10:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I suspect that the 4,800 figure refers to the entire campaign rather than the one battle. While it's true that the Telegraph piece quotes the 4,800 figure, many of the Internet sources have it around 200-450. And it's not entirely clear that the Telegraph was referring to the one battle, rather than the whole war. Obviously, one group is way off.
- It's interesting that the 1911 Britannica article on the campaign makes no mention whatsoever of this battle, though. An oft-quoted anecdote has the British Parliament rising in standing ovation at hearing the news; surely the Hansard would record it? <eleland/talkedits> 17:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
It's worth noting that a professional army, particularly if it's defending a narrow area, can cause a massive amount of damage on an attacking unprofessional one. You see this sort of thing in accounts of Thermopylae and Plataea - Spartan society was almost totally militarized - and also in many of the battles of Wellington's Indian campaigns. Agincourt might be another relevant example. Just a note. Moreschi 20:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- yes, "massive damage" meaning perhaps a ratio of kills of the order of 1:20, but hardly 1:200, not with bolt action rifles and bayonets. If they'd had machine guns or cannons, that would be a different story altogether. But seeing that we have an account emphasizing that a particular defender killed 20, I find it hard to believe that he was below his fellow defenders' average by a factor of 10. Either way, this article is in desperate need of reliable sources. The "Thermopylae effect" says you can immobilize a huge force, simply because it isn't possible for the large majority of attackers to even make contact with the defenders for reasons of space. It doesn't mean you can kill them all. dab (𒁳) 08:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of the sources actually say the guy who killed 20 was locked in a high tower sniping at the Afghans, who couldn't break in and ultimately just burned the tower to the ground. The article had him charging into a crowd of Afghans with a sword, which doesn't make any sense. It's like an American action movie where the huge crowd of bad guys all charge one or two at a time, I guess? <eleland/talkedits> 16:45, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Jesus myth hypothesis
This article is a constant problem. It describes a theory, or group of theories, that Jesus was not a historical person. This theory has absolutely no respect within modern academia, and is therefore a fringe theory. It had some scholarly impact in the early 20th century and it's currently espoused by several popular authors ("popular" meaning "non-academic" in this context), so it's notable enough for its own article. However, from time to time editors pop up and insist that it's not a fringe theory, despite the quotes in the article illustrating the low regard for the idea within academia. Input from outside parties would be helpful. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- My general take is not to argue the fringe/pseudoscience definition with folks but focus on keeping the article as clear and unambiguous as possible. If it is not clear from the article that this is an early 20th century fringe theory, the article needs work. --Rocksanddirt 19:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
indeed. this is another example of an article that only ever attracts attention from people enthusiastic about the topic. Hence the usual self-balancing effects do not come into play. I have had a hell of a time of even getting the point across that Christ as myth is a perfectly valid topic in itself completely unrelated to the historicity question. It simply isn't very enjoyable to discuss with people on a level where you need to point out that "mythology" isn't the antithesis of "historicity" and that it is perfectly unsurprising that a mythology attaches itself to historical characters (Charlemagne isn't unhistorical just because there are folk tales about him). Of course the whole edifice of "there is mythology -- hence Jesus cannot be historical" collapses as soon as you get this point across, so people are bound to make a great effort at Not Getting It. Ceterum censeo: the exact same mechanism is at play at Race of Ancient Egyptians and Afrocentrism. It is a disgrace that Misplaced Pages allows articles like that to state blatant bullshit for months on end just because the conspiracy theorists play dumb and keep playing the race card. Can people please put these articles on their watchlists and make an occasional effort at cutting down the worst bits? dab (𒁳) 11:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Spiritual warfare
and Category:Spiritual warfare. I have my doubts on the validity of these. Apparently pov-forks of Demonology and Exorcism, but the category strangely also has entries like Michael Harner, a New Age neo-shaman. --dab (𒁳) 18:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- The concept of "Spiritual warfare" itself is valid enough, and worthy of discussion, probably in its own article. If advertisement-style New Age mysticism is accumulating around this article, however, it needs to be kept under very close watch. Confusingly, the Spiritual Warfare article contains no mention of jihad, which I would have thought to be a relevant concept. I also think that too much space is currently being devoted to modern evangelical movements. Needs much better referencing. Moreschi 15:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- the term as term is certainly valid. But as far as I can see it is used in completely discrete meanings, among them synonymously with "exorcism". It this is the case, the title should be a disambiguation page, and the category should be depopulated. But I am not sure I got this correctly (and the article as it stands is little or no help). dab (𒁳) 17:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
French Revolution involved genocide
against Royalists in the Vendee region of Western France.
At the time of writing, the current version of the article http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Genocides_in_history&oldid=169877240 , while lengthy (WP: UNDUE), accurately portrays such views as "unconventional" and "minority". However, a couple of users have been waging an edit war to try and keep the claims of Secher and Chanu on an equal footing with that of the prevailing consensus amongst the relevant academic establishment. Please see talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Genocides_in_history - Ledenierhomme 15:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Depends how you define "genocide". IIRC the French Revolutionary government did carry out "populicide" (a description used at the time) with a campaign of systematic mass murder in the Vendée. The article seems to suffer the usual confusion about the term "genocide", i.e. is it a deliberate attempt to wipe out an entire race or ethnic group (in which case the clear-cut examples are the Armenian Genocide, the Jewish Holocaust and Rwanda 1994) or organised killings of a specific enemy group on a mass-scale which would constitute a "crime against humanity"? If the latter, then I think the Vendée massacres - in which over 100,000 people were killed, many by particularly nasty methods such as the noyades - qualify as "genocidal". I've certainly seen that adjective used by historians. I'd have to refresh my memory. But judging by the rest of the article, this isn't the only POV problem there. --Folantin 15:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Here's the UN 1948 description of genoicide. "...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group". The "acts" are then listed, and can be summarised as killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, starving to death, sterilization, and forcible population transfer of the group's children. Not sure how helpful that is, but that seems to be the legal definition. Moreschi 22:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think that it all comes down to whether the nobility and upper classes count as a national, ethnic, or religious group. But it all seems rather quibbling about terminology to me. Adam Cuerden 23:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- "I think that it all comes down to whether the nobility and upper classes count as a national, ethnic, or religious group". Eh? Most of the victims of the Vendée massacres were Catholic peasants (there was a religious dimension to these events). It was the biggest atrocity of the Revolution and its biggest irony: the revolutionaries ended up slaughtering the very people they claimed to represent (an irony repeated many times since, of course). Here's what General Westermann, one of those responsible for the Vendée campaign, said: "The Vendée is no more...I have buried it in the woods and marshes of Savenay... According to your orders, I have trampled their children beneath our horses' feet; I have massacred their women so they will no longer give birth to brigands. I do not have a prisoner to reproach me. I have exterminated them all. The roads are sown with corpses. At Savenay, brigands are arriving all the time claiming to surrender, and we are shooting them non-stop...Mercy is not a revolutionary sentiment" (Quoted by Norman Davies, A History of Europe, p.705). It's still a highly contentious topic, but in recent years it's been given more attention by historians. A lot of people died - maybe ten times more than were executed by guillotine. It does crop up in discussions about the definition and history of genocide (e.g. here ). But your second sentence is correct and there are many other things on that page to quibble with. This is one of those articles that's probably always destined to be a POV magnet and a battleground. --Folantin 09:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've never actually studied the period, so presumed it referred to the more famous massacres. Adam Cuerden 18:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- "I think that it all comes down to whether the nobility and upper classes count as a national, ethnic, or religious group". Eh? Most of the victims of the Vendée massacres were Catholic peasants (there was a religious dimension to these events). It was the biggest atrocity of the Revolution and its biggest irony: the revolutionaries ended up slaughtering the very people they claimed to represent (an irony repeated many times since, of course). Here's what General Westermann, one of those responsible for the Vendée campaign, said: "The Vendée is no more...I have buried it in the woods and marshes of Savenay... According to your orders, I have trampled their children beneath our horses' feet; I have massacred their women so they will no longer give birth to brigands. I do not have a prisoner to reproach me. I have exterminated them all. The roads are sown with corpses. At Savenay, brigands are arriving all the time claiming to surrender, and we are shooting them non-stop...Mercy is not a revolutionary sentiment" (Quoted by Norman Davies, A History of Europe, p.705). It's still a highly contentious topic, but in recent years it's been given more attention by historians. A lot of people died - maybe ten times more than were executed by guillotine. It does crop up in discussions about the definition and history of genocide (e.g. here ). But your second sentence is correct and there are many other things on that page to quibble with. This is one of those articles that's probably always destined to be a POV magnet and a battleground. --Folantin 09:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think that it all comes down to whether the nobility and upper classes count as a national, ethnic, or religious group. But it all seems rather quibbling about terminology to me. Adam Cuerden 23:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Here's the UN 1948 description of genoicide. "...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group". The "acts" are then listed, and can be summarised as killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, starving to death, sterilization, and forcible population transfer of the group's children. Not sure how helpful that is, but that seems to be the legal definition. Moreschi 22:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, the sack of Nineveh probably involved "genocide". The point is that the term is an anachronism. I do think we should avoid applying the term for pre-20th century events, or failing that, at least for pre-19th century ones. The French Revolution may be something like a borderline case, insofar as it marks the beginning of "political modernity", but I would recommend that if in doubt, avoid the term. It's a bit like "terrorism". It attracts trolling without yielding any sort of benefit. This is, incidentially, a question of terminology, not of "fringe theories" as such. Even "massacre" is preferable, that term being in use since the 16th century. dab (𒁳) 11:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yep, it's a question of terminology. Gracchus Babeuf's contemporary term populicide has never really caught on. Ironically, people at the time would be more likely to refer to the Vendée as an act of terrorism. I'm not planning to get involved because this type of page just has too many problems to be worth the effort. Still, not as bad as "Allegations of apartheid". --Folantin 11:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. In an ideal world this is probably something we should actually delete, because despite the fact that there might be a half-decent article here somewhere in the very distant future, in practice, on a project like Misplaced Pages, that ain't going to happen - too many opportunities for a good fight. At the least, the sections on pre-20th century alleged "genoicides" should be vastly slimmed down per Dbachmann's reasoning and the focus put on universally acknowledged 20th-century genoicides (the Holocaust, Armenia), along with other 20th-century incidences of what some scholars have called genoicide, but which are disputed by others. Moreschi 13:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
- I strongly concur with that sentiment, and recall that either on this page or on a similar "we suffered most" page there was a table, with tons of references, including the Holocaust, the Ukranian famine, and what not, but leading it off at the top was (to paraphrase) the simple words: Genocide-Flood; Perpetrator-God; Victims-All but eight. It was referenced to Genesis, and had stayed in for a while. I couldn't make up my mind if it was subversive or not. Relata refero 19:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. In an ideal world this is probably something we should actually delete, because despite the fact that there might be a half-decent article here somewhere in the very distant future, in practice, on a project like Misplaced Pages, that ain't going to happen - too many opportunities for a good fight. At the least, the sections on pre-20th century alleged "genoicides" should be vastly slimmed down per Dbachmann's reasoning and the focus put on universally acknowledged 20th-century genoicides (the Holocaust, Armenia), along with other 20th-century incidences of what some scholars have called genoicide, but which are disputed by others. Moreschi 13:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
term-hijacking at Category:Traditionalism
I came across this highly suspect walled garden, Category:Traditionalism. What I can make of it so far is that there is a valid topic, Traditionalist School, surrounding some sort of occultist-neofascist-ethnocentric ideology. From that article, stuff spills over to
- Radical Traditionalism
- Perennial philosophy
- Sophia Perennis
- Study of Traditionalism
- Paleoconservatism (Category:Paleoconservatism!)
- Paleoconservative worldview
- Perennial psychology
- Neoconservatism and paleoconservatism
Apart from the familiar inflating of a minor topic across half a dozen articles, we get the problem of hijacking the term "Traditionalism" in the sense of this specific occultist/neo-nazi concept. I am trying to figure this one out, but I would welcome judicious input. This may or may not be related to the Integral thought stuff we have discussed earlier. dab (𒁳) 15:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- I suspect it is. Check out the history of Perennial psychology, which I've just redirected. Looked to be a blurb for the views of Ken Wilber, where I redirected it to. No prizes for guessing what Ken Wilber is all about. Integral thought. Here we go again...Moreschi 16:38, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- the mention of Wilber on that article is what made me suspect a connection. He remains however unmentioned on Perennial philosophy. I am not sure of the status of Paleoconservatism - this may be a valid topic that just fell victim to the "spillover". But the existence of a full Paleoconservative worldview besides Paleoconservatism seems to betray that the same inflationary "spillover" tactics are at work in this topic as well. What a mess. dab (𒁳) 17:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- ok, I suppose Paleoconservatism is a valid topic of US politics, as a 1990s to 2000s counter-movement to neoconservatism within conservative discourse. WP coverage still appears frightfully inflated and contorted. Some insight may be gained from the conservapedia article. But this seems largely unrelated to the real "fringe" problems of Category:Traditionalism. dab (𒁳) 17:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- For those interested, check out Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Charles Upton. Also, check out the language and "thoughts" expressed while comparing Sophia Perennis and Integral thought. It's the same concept of cross-cultural mish-mash of "universal truths". I agree that Paleoconservatism looks more valid than not, but the rest...blimey. Moreschi 17:05, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I've rougely deleted Sophia Perennis. If you want a laugh I'll email you the deleted content. Serious trash, needs rewriting completely from scratch, if at all. Moreschi 17:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Moreschi, I think you are overdoing it with the speedy-deletions. Remember, you can just blank articles, no admin buttons involved. I would see nothing wrong with blanking the article, but keeping the edit history available, and turning it into a disambig page along the lines of
Sophia Perennis may refer to
dab (𒁳) 17:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- True, a disambig would also work. Then again, is the publishing house notable? And speaking of publishing houses, what about World Wisdom? The awards list is impressive, but then all the awards are from independent publishing associations. Do we not require something a little more mainstream? Moreschi 17:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
I think I understand the general shape of this now, and have mostly fixed it. Traditionalist School was horribly dishonest about the situation. I've now provided the general framework, but the topic of course still needs much work. dab (𒁳) 11:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
2007 United States Air Force nuclear weapons incident Iran cover-up theory
A long section has been added to this article asserting a single, but sourced opinion that this incident wasn't actually an accident but an internal rebellion by US Air Force officers to preempt a possible nuclear strike on Iran. My concerns are whether the sources meet the notability guidelines, and if they do, whether the section is too long and gives undue weight to the theory and if it's written neutrally. Thank-you in advance for any perpective you might provide on the issue. Cla68 05:08, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Whether the conspiracy has merit or not is one thing, however the conspiracy takes up about half of the article and isn't properly formatted to begin with which to my eyes is undue weight considering the sources use the tested trial of "noted critics" and then linking to that on persons articles repeatedly as an indicator of a unified view other than one mans. –– Lid 14:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- Obvious violation of WP:UNDUE, this sort of stuff is made to be nuked. The military deliberately sending their own nukes off into the sunset just to say "fuck you" to the politicians...amusing, but no. Silly fringe stuff that can't be properly sourced, get rid of it. Moreschi 22:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- There are precisely two sources claim any linkage, both carrying bylines of what appear to be fairly crusader-y investigative reporters. If not completely non-notable, the theory deserves at best a paragraphg, not the long involved discussion it gets now. Relata refero 19:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I feel people who testified before congress, counterterrorism experts, NSA analysts and investigative journalists are expert sources.
"Misplaced Pages articles must be based on reliable sources
Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities; mainstream newspapers; and university level textbooks, magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses. What these have in common is process and approval between document creation and publication. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication. Material that is self-published is generally not regarded as reliable, but see below for exceptions. Any unsourced material may be removed, and in biographies of living persons unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material must be removed immediately."
For some reason investigative journalists who have won major awards exposing military/intelligence coverups, intelligence experts and military officials are not qualified to discuss issues of military, intelligence or coverups. You all are holding me to an absurd level of 'evidence'.
If my sources are too partisan I can understand why the article was deleted (luckily I saved it since I figured it would be deleted for being controversial). But I posted citations from the new yorker, counterterrorism experts, military officials, NSA analyists, people who have testified before congress and award winning investigative journalists with decades of experience.
Here are my source on topics of military, intelligence and investigative journalism.
Wayne Madsen - NSA analyst and ex-Navy intelligence officer who has testified before congress written for the Village Voice and Wired who has worked with congressman Bob Barr on privacy legislation.
Dave Lindorff - investigative journalist who has won a project censored award for exposing information on reinstatement of the draft, 30 years of experience in journalism, written for publications like the Nation and Counterpunch
Larry C. Johnson - counterterrorism expert and ex-CIA member
Dana Priest - Pulitzer prize winning intelligence and military expert for the Washington Post with over 20 years of experience. She won the prize for exposing information on secret US prisons.
Salon magazine
The New Yorker magazine
The Times (UK) magazine
these are reliable sources for military, intelligence or investigative journalism. What am I supposed to do? What more evidence do I need? Legitimate magazines, award winning journalists who expose intelligence/military coverups, intelligence officials and military officials are adequate sources for intelligence/military coverups.
As far as the fringe theory claim, there is merit there, I will grant that. Some of my sources do express a political bias. Is there any way to express this information (which I feel is important) while explainig that there may be a polticial bias to it? To claim that an encyclopedia entry that is 'only' based on pulitzer prize winning journalists, award winning investigative journalists, intelligence/military experts and well known magazines as unreliable is extremely false at best.
Dana Priest and Dave Lindorff have both won major awards for uncovering controversial facts involving intelligence and military actions. Lindorff for info on the draft, Priest for info on secret prisons.
Who is better at exposing controversial military/intelligence issues than award winning journalists who have won awards for doing that exact thing?
I feel these are prominent adherents. But due to the UNDUE issue I can see the controvery, no matter what the evidence. Should a new article be created that is solely devoted to this subject?
Jenkem
From a cursory glance, the article on jenkem looks like it needs attention for both WP:FRINGE issues and reliable sources. This has a strong whiff (pardon the pun) of an urban legend. Cheers, Skinwalker 16:27, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
- It is part real, part urban legend, part internet meme, part OMG! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! type article. Jenkem is real and confirmed by the BBC and Children of Africa reliable/verifiable sources. That is where the real part ends, period. Internet meme and urban legend comes into play with the flux64 part. The OMG! THINK OF THE CHILDREN! part comes in when the media start using it as a "moral panic incitement" type article which takes a relatively minor and obscure "high" and turns it into the next drug of choice for teens. This article contains all three parts. I think the proposed split it a good one (real from the Internet Meme/OMG! PANIC! part). spryde | talk 14:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- And I was bold and did the split. spryde | talk 14:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Aftermath of the 11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings
This article has been tagged with {{Totally disputed}} for a year because it omits theories that the Spanish police were behind the bottom. In looking into this closer it turns out large chunks of the article have been in hidden comments since a February edit war. At a quick glance it appears to have been a "if my unsourced conspiracy text is not allowed then no unsourced text is allowed" sort of edit war. This is turning out to be more involved problem than I first thought it to be.--BirgitteSB 19:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see what's wrong with the hidden stuff. Granted, it's not sourced, but that could be so easily fixed with an hour or so rootling around in newspaper archives. Appears reasonable material - certainly, without it, the article is horribly disjointed, whackily spaced, and annoyingly shite. Moreschi 21:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Fringe theories WikiProject?
I do get the impression that there are a real mess of articles dealing with fringe theories. Maybe we could try to create a nominal Project for the purpose of dealing with these theories, something along the lines of the Rational Skepticism project. It would at least give the chance of creating an article list which could be monitored for changes. John Carter 20:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know....every subject has its fringe. I tend to think a notice board where folks check up on stuff and report stuff that seems odd is a more workable solution. but that's my original research and sythesis....;) --Rocksanddirt 22:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, on the downside, every single encyclopedic subject would probably be of interest to such a group. On the upside, the idea is inherently neutral. It's not an anti-fringe project, just a project that watches the fringe (which could well be inclusive of members of the fringe). Antelan 22:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I think there already is one, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Alternative Views. I'm going to create an articles page for that project at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Alternative Views/Articles and list all those articles which are listed on this page right now. Then, we can at least use the recent changes function which I'll add to the project page to keep updated on these articles. John Carter 23:33, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, on the downside, every single encyclopedic subject would probably be of interest to such a group. On the upside, the idea is inherently neutral. It's not an anti-fringe project, just a project that watches the fringe (which could well be inclusive of members of the fringe). Antelan 22:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
there is also WikiProject Rational Skepticism -- sort of the same goal approached from the other end. While the Alternative Views seems to have the intention of pushing coverage of Fringe views as far as policy will allow, the Rational Skepticism one is trying to cut the crap and fix articles that tout fringe topics. I ask you, which is more needed in the real world? Do we have to worry more that a fringe topic will unduly remain unreported, or do we have to worry more that fringe topics will be unduly over-reported and given more credibility than they deserve? The answer is at Misplaced Pages:Sword-skeleton theory. dab (𒁳) 11:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- True, but the RS already had a separate article list. Trust me, I've worked on it. Having said that, I wouldn't mind perhaps seeing the Alternative Views project discuss whether it should or should not change its stated scope. And, at least for myself, I joined the project not so much to push fringe theories, but to try to find if there would be any way to perhaps create a place where content regarding fringe theories could be placed so as to not receive undue weight elsewhere, like in an article about a given book, for instance. Personally, I'd love to see the AV project changed to being the effective project equivalent of the noticeboard here, or maybe merged into another, similar project. But I don't think that right now the project has enough members with that inclination for it to be successful. John Carter 17:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- so, do you think there would be a point in merging RS and AV? This noticeboard could then be part of the resulting "Due Weight" project. We can also keep things as they are, but we need to prominently crosslink projects with overlapping scopes. dab (𒁳) 18:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Merging might be difficult, and probably would be down the line a bit. There is now, however, a proposal at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Due weight for the creation of a "parent" project for the various projects related to fringe theories and undue weight considerations. Certainly, in time the various child projects could be merged in if the parent is viable. John Carter 18:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- so, do you think there would be a point in merging RS and AV? This noticeboard could then be part of the resulting "Due Weight" project. We can also keep things as they are, but we need to prominently crosslink projects with overlapping scopes. dab (𒁳) 18:06, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
There's a fellow who keeps adding a POV-pushing coatrack about how awful Dawkins is. Never mind that the claims of deception were made by at least three people so far. Adam Cuerden 13:03, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- maybe someone could add more facts about the deception? such as the registration of the website prior to requests for interviews? The movie sounds dreadful, imo. --Rocksanddirt 17:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Homeopathy
Lots of attempts to remove criticism from the lead. So far, they've tried to remove the bit about no molecules remaining in many common homeopathic dilutions, and set out Hahnemann's thoughts as if he was right. I'm off to class. Adam Cuerden 08:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Is there any difference between having no criticism and being all criticism? In the first paragraph alone there were four instances of "Homeopaths contend......". Is this article about homeopathy or should it be retitled critcisms of homeopathy? David D. (Talk) 19:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I concur with David D. The LEAD should summarize the subject. The criticism should be included in the main text of the article. Whig 19:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- The lead should summarize the article. It should stand as a mini-article such that one could read it and know the important outlines of the subject. The lead uses NPOV just like the rest of the article. There is no policy that says we revert to sympathetic point of view in the lead, while using NPOV elsewhere.
- Therefore, if a subject has very notable criticism, the outline of that criticism must be in the lead. We do not believe in content forks on wikipedia. Cool Hand Luke 19:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree that criticims must be outlined in the lead. The fact that there is criticism should certaily be part of the lead, and I would agree that if that criticism can be summarized in one or two sentence in the lead we can and should do so. But I don't think it is a "must" to outline it in the lead. Blueboar 20:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- On most subjects, there is no need for criticism in the lead because the criticisms are not a weighty part of the topic. Say, something like Calvin and Hobbes. Other subjects are almost defined by the reliably-sourced criticism about them, say Iraq War. (These are not perfect articles, but they were just some examples that cam to mind.) Homeopathy is the latter, and omitting all criticism from the lead would run afoul of NPOV. It must be included for this topic. Cool Hand Luke 20:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree that criticims must be outlined in the lead. The fact that there is criticism should certaily be part of the lead, and I would agree that if that criticism can be summarized in one or two sentence in the lead we can and should do so. But I don't think it is a "must" to outline it in the lead. Blueboar 20:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Therefore, if a subject has very notable criticism, the outline of that criticism must be in the lead. We do not believe in content forks on wikipedia. Cool Hand Luke 19:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think that "briefly describing notable controversies" is appropriate and in fact necessary in a good lead (per WP:LEAD). You can't accurately and neutrally summarize homeopathy without mentioning the fact that it's widely considered to be scientifically unfounded. I think David's point was simply that the lead may be going too far overboard and being solely critical. MastCell 20:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly right. I agree with all the criticisms. I am very cynical about homeopathy and all alternative medicine in general. However, I still see the current lead as over-the-top criticism and unbalanced in this sense. It's a common flaw I see in many controversial articles in wikipedia. There is no good reason to rebutt each and every claim in the following sentence. There is no good reason to use a phrase like "Homeopaths contend..." so often. It's incredibly tedious to read such repetition, it's also tedious to have the description of homoepathy broken up by continual rebuttals. Are we really so insecure that we cannot allow the opening paragraph to explain the principles of homeopathy in a flowing and interesting narrative? David D. (Talk) 20:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with David D. and would point out that there are editors who seem to need all articles with either unproven or out right pseudoscience to be nothing but criticism, and resist all attempts make readable, verified, neutral articles. --Rocksanddirt 21:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly right. I agree with all the criticisms. I am very cynical about homeopathy and all alternative medicine in general. However, I still see the current lead as over-the-top criticism and unbalanced in this sense. It's a common flaw I see in many controversial articles in wikipedia. There is no good reason to rebutt each and every claim in the following sentence. There is no good reason to use a phrase like "Homeopaths contend..." so often. It's incredibly tedious to read such repetition, it's also tedious to have the description of homoepathy broken up by continual rebuttals. Are we really so insecure that we cannot allow the opening paragraph to explain the principles of homeopathy in a flowing and interesting narrative? David D. (Talk) 20:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think that "briefly describing notable controversies" is appropriate and in fact necessary in a good lead (per WP:LEAD). You can't accurately and neutrally summarize homeopathy without mentioning the fact that it's widely considered to be scientifically unfounded. I think David's point was simply that the lead may be going too far overboard and being solely critical. MastCell 20:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Now that I understand his point, I also agree. "Contend...contend...contend..." is a style that we don't even employ in articles recounting controversial religious experiences. It's very negative in tone, although the substance is essentially good. Cool Hand Luke 21:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Agree especially with David D. I wonder how generally it is considered pseudoscience, given that the mainstream sources which criticize it also say that it is widely used. The lead needs to have criticism, but needs to have a neutral tone. For example, more than one sentence stating categorically that it is in conflict with scientific knowledge is overkill. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The use of "contend" was an amicable solution to the previous use of "claim". A number of statements in the lead left the impression that they were proven fact, when that wasn't the case. Since an NPOV article and lead can't state untruths without some type of qualifier, or unproven claims as if they are facts, this was the best term that editors from both sides could agree upon, and, IIRC, that solution was proposed by a pro-homeopathy editor. It was a consensus solution and I would suggest that David D. read the earlier discussion on the talk page and then respect the consensus that ended an edit war. We don't need to start that edit war again.
Otherwise, the use of straw man arguments like "nothing but criticism" and "solely critical" are not helpful to a serious discussion, since that is certainly not the case. The salient points describing basic homeopathic theory and practice are told clearly in the lead and the criticisms likewise. That makes it an NPOV lead that sums up the whole article. The constant push for an article that tells about homeopathy only from the POV of homeopaths, while relegating criticisms to a small part of the article, is a plea for violation of weight and NPOV. Articles at Misplaced Pages are significantly different than articles on other websites. Here we tell "the whole story" about a subject, including opposing POV and controversies.
Misplaced Pages's "Law of Unintended Consequences" certainly applies here:
- If you write in Misplaced Pages about yourself, your group, or your company, once the article is created, you have no right to control its content, and no right to delete it outside our normal channels; we will not delete it simply because you don't like it. Any editor may add material to it within the terms of our content policies. If there is anything publicly available on a topic that you would not want included in an article, it will probably find its way there eventually; more than one user has created an article only to find himself presented in a poor light long-term by other editors. Therefore, don't create promotional or other articles lightly, especially on subjects you care about. Either edit neutrally or don't edit at all. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable.
This applies to all articles and to any subject, including pet ideas or favorite singer, regardless of who started the article. We need to cover the subject from all angles, and NPOV requires that both sides of the story are presented, so criticism is included. Many think they can write an article presenting a subject in the best light possible, only to find they have opened a can of worms and Pandora's box itself. Once the article is started, all kinds of negative things also become part of the article. So attempts to promote something often end up back-firing. Attempts to cover-up criticisms, keep them out of articles, whitewash the subject, etc. only end up causing the criticisms to be better sourced and strengthened. Right now this article covers the subject pretty well, but if necessary the appropriate weight that the scientific POV deserves could be improved. -- Fyslee / talk 00:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Seriously. COI applies only where editing is not NPOV. Now, "Contend" is not a WP:WTA- though I intend to add it, as it is much like "Insist, maintain, protest" and is un-necessary because "argue" does just as well. But there is no reason for using it where "say" works just as well. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 00:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think the issue of words to avoid, at least, should be easy to resolve. I've taken a shot at it. We can say that "homeopaths believe x and y" without making a judgement about whether x and y are true or scientifically valid. Instead of a somewhat tortured construction about how homeopaths "contend" the process works, we can just say that homeopathy "proposes to treat imbalances in a vital source". As to the proper amount of criticism to include in the lead, I have no opinion at this juncture. MastCell 00:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Your change was good. Adam is currently making a lot of the changes, more or less, that he tried to block me for a week for making. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- People can change their minds if the argument is based on solid ground. A willingness to change an opinion is a good thing so let's see this progression in a positive light. David D. (Talk) 02:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Your change was good. Adam is currently making a lot of the changes, more or less, that he tried to block me for a week for making. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:19, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT)
Rokus01 (talk · contribs) believes the Nordwestblock (viz., the Netherlands) is the "cradle of civilization", the origin of the "Nordic race", or something to that effect. He is quite difficult to figure out, since most of his contribution are intelligent and based on academic sources, but presented subtly out of context to appear to establish claims they do not in fact make. This needs close attention and judicious involvement, something I am not capable of doing right now, both due to RL tasks, and due to frustration over being painted a "rouge admin" over my efforts to combat the national mysticist fringe. Moreschi's Plague: WP is very badly equipped to deal with these things, and even shows signs of auto-immunity, with confused T-cells having at the few active ones instead of recognizing the infection. dab (𒁳) 11:06, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- That thing reads like an essay. I'll try to at least text edit the essay-ness down, but I won't have time for a while. I've got to do my IRL original research that I get paid for....--Rocksanddirt 17:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have some time ATM, and am willing to help Rokus01 get the article into shape. I think it's best to have him involved in the process rather than going over his head with reverts and commando-type edits. Of course, anyone with more experience and clout can jump in at any time if they see it as necessary. Just give us some time to work through the material and get it into something resembling an encyclopedia entry. Aryaman (☼) 19:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, at the first part discussion on the appropriate text style certainly needs to include Roksus01, whether some of the factual/verifiablity issues can be worked on with his input seems an open question. --Rocksanddirt 21:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed on both points. I am assuming good faith on his part, as well as his ability to accept views contrary to his own - especially on matters pertaining to policy. I often see experienced editors slap a few references to policy in a discussion thread just prior to going gung-ho with the undo-button without taking the time to explain what a particular policy is supposed to mean in the specific context. And this regularly leads to all kinds of trouble that no one needs to waste their time on. I think a combination of strict adherence to policy with clear explanations of the requirements those policies entail with regards to the actual article would go a long way towards diffusing potentially nasty situations. But, you're right. Time will tell in this particular case. Aryaman (☼) 00:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, at the first part discussion on the appropriate text style certainly needs to include Roksus01, whether some of the factual/verifiablity issues can be worked on with his input seems an open question. --Rocksanddirt 21:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
- I have some time ATM, and am willing to help Rokus01 get the article into shape. I think it's best to have him involved in the process rather than going over his head with reverts and commando-type edits. Of course, anyone with more experience and clout can jump in at any time if they see it as necessary. Just give us some time to work through the material and get it into something resembling an encyclopedia entry. Aryaman (☼) 19:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
He's now written an entirely new page on what is apparently a fringe theory called the Broad Homeland hypothesis and attempted to rewrite Indo-European languages to push it (the Kurgan hypothesis article and its references make it clear its the predominant theory in this area). I cleaned up the latter, leaving the section he added but putting it in a more appropriate place; I'm not even sure it deserves its own section. Others please keep an eye on this. - Merzbow (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- this is getting worse. close supervision is necessary. dab (𒁳) 10:15, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Alternative theories of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103
Anyone taken a look at this article? Looks extremely suspect to me - unverified claims, theories presented as facts, original research, weasel words, logic errors, unreliable sources, biased point of view... Socrates2008 (talk) 12:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, by definition it appears to be an article on conspiracy theories. Similar to the Masonic consipracy theories article being discussed on WP:RS/N, some of the stuff in there is going to be pretty flaky. While the article's too long and there's a bit of OR-synth, there appear to be a reasonable number of references for the claims themselves. (Naturally, as in all such articles, the otherwise impressive list of references is padded with reliable sources that don't actually deal with the specific subject.) Relata refero (talk) 13:38, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, as you know Relata refero-it's not about the amount of the sources but about their reliability-which is very low in this specific case. For example, citing Yuval Aviv as a reliable source is quite far from being natural or standing in academic standards as his writing is widely considered, by experts, to be unreliable.--Gilisa (talk) 08:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- I do know Aviv's reputation, which was discussed widely even outside Israel at the time of the Spielberg movie, and I would doubt that he counts as anything close to a mainstream view for extensive inclusion in the main article on PA103. However, I imagine that he counts as a reliable source for "alternative theories", since his received a certain amount of publicity, and he was Pan Am's official investigator. Relata refero (talk) 10:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, as you know Relata refero-it's not about the amount of the sources but about their reliability-which is very low in this specific case. For example, citing Yuval Aviv as a reliable source is quite far from being natural or standing in academic standards as his writing is widely considered, by experts, to be unreliable.--Gilisa (talk) 08:31, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
The following is a relevant extract from Talk:Alternative theories of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103:
- "This article contains citations that do not support the statements, lacks citations for (disputed) facts, cites unreliable sources, presents conjecture as fact, has logic errors, contains weasel words, and does not present a balanced view of the subject matter. In short, a very dubious article for an encyclopedia. Socrates2008 (talk) 09:07, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
- "A pretty damning critique, Socrates2008! I agree with some of what you say but do not accept much of it, including the dubiety point. Here's a little bit of the history:
- two years ago, Pan Am Flight 103 had become an article of unwieldy length;
- three sections were split from the main article: Investigation into the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, Pan Am Flight 103 bombing trial and Alternative theories of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103;
- the "alternative theories" section was moved verbatim to this new article along with the very few inline supporting references at the time. Although most statements in this section had originally been sourced (to a book, newspaper article) in the parent article, it was not obvious (to me who did most of the transfer) which statement related to which source; and,
- as the new article was expanded, inline references were of course added.
- From a brief look at your tags, it seems that the following The Scotsman article provides many of the required citations: http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=184&id=1014782007 But if he didn't do it, who did? The other theories. (Incidentally, this Scotsman piece is quoted above as an example of media citing this Misplaced Pages article as a source!).Phase4 (talk) 20:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)"
I find it very odd that Socrates2008 did not include this "fringe theory" notion in the catalogue of complaints about the article. If the convicted Libyan Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi succeeds in his upcoming second appeal and has the Lockerbie bombing conviction overturned, I believe that this "alternative theories" article is going to be required reading for UK and US government investigators, who will then have to find the real saboteurs of Pan Am Flight 103.Phase4 (talk) 13:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- The article now has 62 inline references to primary sources and all the tags added by Socrates2008 have been removed.Phase4 (talk) 16:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Relata refero, you wrote: " I do know Aviv's reputation, which was discussed widely even outside Israel at the time of the Spielberg movie ". I, however, didn't said nothing about Israel in connection with Aviv's reputation, and since it might be that I didn't understand your answer well-i.e. if their is any story behind this issue -please explain me so I would understand your meaning better and we can take the discussion further. Nonetheless, I did knew that his reputation was discussed outside Israel and any why, I think that there is a difference between well known source and a well established source-meaning reliable one, and Aviv's reputation should be mentioned any where he is cited as an authority--Gilisa (talk) 11:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Er, Aviv's Israeli, and is best known within Israel. He was noted outside Israel at the time his book was published, but was only really talked about when Munich came out. That is what I meant, and this is the second time I have to remind you that hypersensitivity in bold italics is never helpful for the atmosphere here. (I do know - and the WP article on him agrees - that he is considered less reliable within Israel than he is outside.) In any case, regardless of the geographical specifics, he is a valid source for an article on alternative theories, since he discussed one of the major ones, as Pan Am's chosen investigator. If you wish to claim that instead he is a primary source, and so should be used with caution, that's another matter. Relata refero (talk) 20:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Relata refero, you wrote: " I do know Aviv's reputation, which was discussed widely even outside Israel at the time of the Spielberg movie ". I, however, didn't said nothing about Israel in connection with Aviv's reputation, and since it might be that I didn't understand your answer well-i.e. if their is any story behind this issue -please explain me so I would understand your meaning better and we can take the discussion further. Nonetheless, I did knew that his reputation was discussed outside Israel and any why, I think that there is a difference between well known source and a well established source-meaning reliable one, and Aviv's reputation should be mentioned any where he is cited as an authority--Gilisa (talk) 11:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Swastika
User:Bkobres has for some time now been trying to insert material in this and other articles relating to his personal theory that swastikas originated as representations of bird tracks or bird-gods. While it's perfectly reasonable to state that bird tracks may be represented in swastika-like forms (a "swastika" is a rather loose concept), Bob is now pushing a mini-essay in the lead, footnoted to keyword searches in Google Books which add any book that links the terms "swastika" and "bird" in a way that seems to support his theory. I think this is a clear case of WP:SYN and of Undue Weight. Comments on the talk page would be welcome. I have cut and pasted his mini-essay to the Talk:Swastika page. Paul B (talk) 15:39, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- Bkobres is an old regular. See also Misplaced Pages:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard/Archive_1#Comets_and_the_swastika_motif. dab (𒁳) 16:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Astrology
Could use more eyes, especially from editors who reside in the physical world. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- /me watches Astrology article. Sheffield Steelstalk 06:12, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Yahoo!#Shark finning controversy
A handful of IPs and new users appear to be POV-pushing to ensure that an issue regarding Yahoo's involvement in a company that enables shark finning gets added to the Yahoo! article's controversy section. Some seems to be POV original research - other parts of it might be ok. Just could use a third party review to ensure it is not too "fringe". --ZimZalaBim 03:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Well, it doesn't look like they're giving undue weight to the issue (a short paragraph at the end of a long section of controversy) and the sources seem to be reliable and independent enough. No comment on the users including the material - highly motivated editors may yet be productive ones, and if there are conduct issues, they can be addressed. Just my 2 metasyntactic currency subdivisions. Sheffield Steelstalk 06:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks - I actually did some cleanup to get it to its current state. --ZimZalaBim 14:42, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Tired light
User:Harald88 continues to insist that certain extremely fringe publications that are only cited by the authors get included at tired light which was a proposal made by Fritz Zwicky o so many years ago and now has been consigned to the dustbin of history. As it is, these references look very much to me like soapboxing. I'm not sure if Harald is associated with Marmet, Masreliez , or Accardi, but he seems to be peculiarly convinced that their papers have relevance to physics beyond the astrophysics community where these cranks have received little to no recognition for their ideas. I would appreciate a third opinion on the matter as I cannot seem to get Harald to understand that these references do not belong in a legitimate encyclopedia. Thanks. Please comment at Talk:Tired light. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:28, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Immanuel Velikovsky
Please check the activity on Immanuel Velikovsky where a User:Icebear1946 seems intent on spamming for a particular fringe website of limited notability. ScienceApologist (talk) 04:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- Also see Ages in Chaos for an article similarly fringe-y. Relata refero (talk) 11:18, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone still believe in Velikovsky? I know Stephen Jay Gould talked about him, but I always presumed he was now only of historical interest. Adam Cuerden 11:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- You'd be amazed at the things people are willing to believe in. (Or maybe not.) Anyway, I gave Icebear1946 a spam4im warning. Raymond Arritt (talk) 14:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- I had never guessed the depths of human credulity, naiveté, and outright stupidity before I started editing Misplaced Pages. If nothing else, the project is a real eye-opener in this respect. dab (𒁳) 15:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)