Misplaced Pages

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A form of natural attrition?

I must say I do like the idea of an unfettered choice of subject matter at FAC - something like some sort of Freudian free association as to what wikifolks really want to give a spit 'n' boot polish too to polish up to FAC. Pop culture is today's version of folklore, fables and mythology so I have no problem with Simpsons as I do with ancient material.

But I digress; there is so much passing through FAC that I wonder if by choosing something too obscure one is dooming a FA candidate article to failing or at least delaying passing as it raises less interest than a more accessible one..and that as FAC gets busier this may be more apparent (or maybe I am just putting 1 & 1 together and getting 3....)...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many editors who state that any article can reach FA status, but I don't believe that's the case. I absolutely believe there are hundreds if not thousands of topics which are too obscure to be successful at FAC in its current form. Considering the small percentage of the community which weighs in on any FAC, and considering the lack of experts or organization within portions of the community, there's no way many FACs receive the attention (or recognition) they deserve. Choosing an obscure topic may well doom a FAC, depending on just how obscure the topic is. Firsfron of Ronchester 16:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, obscure topics may find it easier to get through FAC, as there are less experts able to find faults with them. Epbr123 (talk) 16:56, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Obscurity isn't the only thing that limits FAC reviews - accessibility also plays its part. Consider the current review on Ulysses (poem): most definitely not obscure, but not a subject people feel comfortable commenting on, for whatever reason. It seems to me that some of the more "high brow" articles suffer from inattention through FAC just as much as obscure articles do. Generally, the more traditional encyclopaedia subjects tend to attract reviews from a small subset of editors who are interested in that area (science, classical EngLit, MilHist etc), while the pop culture stuff attracts a lot of comment. Epbr makes a good point on expertise too - the aforementioned categories tend to attract fewer reviews than pop culture, but those reviews are typically much more detailed and critical than the "fancruft" (excuse the nasty phrase), simply because the reviewers have a passion for the subject. Being an "expert" on the Simpsons is a damned sight easier than being an expert on the works of Tennyson. Hmm, I'm not sure what the point I was trying to make was, but here it is anyway ;) Carre (talk) 17:28, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Firsfron, but the question for me is: What's the best way to object to an article about a subject which is too obscure to be an FA? Is there some part of the criteria which can be invoked most effectively? The best I can come up with is objecting on the basis of "not comprehensive enough" – surely this is a pretty subjective perspective, and I can't help feeling like I'm using a bit of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. – Scartol • Tok 20:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a difficult issue that goes to the heart of what Misplaced Pages is. When I took Norte Chico civilization through FAC, I was quite convinced that I knew more about the topic than any Wikipedian going. Because I'm an archeologist or because the material is particularly complex? No, on both counts—it just seemed unlikely that any other conscientious amateur had read through the English language material as precisely as I had, on a subject so obscure. (It would only take you a day.) With the exception of one involved reviewer, the FAC was underwhelming.

What would have made it better? A subject matter expert—which, again, goes to the heart of Misplaced Pages. We don't bar subject matter experts, of course, but we don't have a process that requires them to look at an article. I would love nothing more than an actual archeologist looking at the Norte Chico article. Now, Nupedia failed because of clunky peer review (Citizendium will fail for the same reason) and Misplaced Pages has succeeded because it swore off expert reliance. I applaud that—I'm here for that reason. But maybe we might rope them in again to look on a lower order of magnitude at our best (and the main links to our best, which are often lacking)? Something above FA? I don't know. But I do think we should stop talking about quantity and start talking about the quality of what is already here. Marskell (talk) 21:47, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The vast majority of "actual archaeologists" may well not not know any more about the Norte Chico than you do. Why should they, unless they'd taken the time to specifically study that civilisation? Given a sufficiently obscure subject, almost anyone can become the world's leading expert in a matter of days, no previous training required. The Zulu Principle. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 01:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I feel something has to be pretty exacting or specific for there to be insufficient material for FA status - even then this can be fixed sometime by broadening the scope a wee bit. As well there is the structure and form of the article which can be viewed under hierarchy of headings and/or prose. Sometimes things just come out 'wonky' and need to be reworked. Happened first time I nominated Stegosaurus and also with K-T exticntion recently.

The reason I like the free flow of articles on all sorts of subjects is that it is fascinating to see what people write about as important to them, rather than some patronising view as to what is importnat or vital. Amusing also to see the similarities and differences between the top 500 viewed articles and the vital article list. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we're talking about two different things: some of us are saying that an article may be too obscure, where others are saying a subject may be too obscure. While I don't disagree with the former, I do with the latter. It's easy enough to get caught in the trap of writing too technically, alienating your readership. But in an encyclopedia read and edited by millions of users, there probably are very few articles which have an overly obscure topic. It's just that FAC is based on consensus, and with few people weighing in on many FACs, there isn't much consensus to promote, meaning one or two out-of-process objects can derail a FAC.

Say what you will about Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Norte Chico civilization, but despite the relatively small number of people weighing in, at least there were quite a few insightful comments. Compare that to Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/Styracosaurus, which did not receive any meaningful commentary. There was a PR and a Scientific Peer Review, luckily. But with Scientific Peer Review now defunct, and Peer Review now reduced almost entirely to automated suggestions from bots, articles aren't getting the attention they require, either from the experts or from outside editors.

Getting back to the idea of obscure subjects, in a truly NPOV encyclopedia, Styracosaurus would receive roughly the same number/quality of reviews as Tyrannosaurus. Of course, that fails drastically in practice: T. rex is just better-known (to the public) than Styracosaurus:. And I know better than to even bother submitting some FACs on more obscure dinosaurs: no one's ever heard of them, and they won't receive good (or any) reviews. I don't think it's likely that there will ever be a Triassic dinosaur FA: outside of the WP:DINO editors, no one's ever heard of Herrerasaurus, Massospondylus, or Plateosaurus, and these articles seem likely never to make it higher than GA. this was the actual "scientific peer review" for Herrerasaurus, left open for over four months in the vain hope that someone -- anyone -- would comment. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I disagree about those triassic dino FAs - the only one which has had a collaborative workout is Herrerasaurus which has gone a bit pear-shaped. I haven't looked at the others recently but all these are meaty enough to become FAs. Gawd Firs, yer gettin' all pessimistic all of a sudden..at least there are some active editors in WP dinos, compared with WP Fungi it's a wealth of talent, enough of whom are keen to point out things and assess at FAC to allow Raul to see there is a consensus of support (though outside input is always much appreciated).cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not at all pessimistic about WP:DINO, Cas. These articles, however, are not getting reviews from the WP community, at any level of review. Misplaced Pages:Featured article candidates/Styracosaurus received 5 comments in early June, only three from outside the WikiProject. Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Daspletosaurus/archive1 received only one comment in mid-June, none from outside the WikiProject. Misplaced Pages:Peer review/Massospondylus received only the one automated comment in early November. As linked above, the Herrerasaurus peer review remained uncommented-on for four months. The numbers are trending downward: based on these figures, future dinosaur PR and FA attempts may deteriorate to 0 comments (PR is already at 0). Back when WP:DINO was collaborating on the more "exciting" dinosaurs, we had decent reviews. But now that we're working on more obscure animals, the commentary has dropped to nil. Firsfron of Ronchester 11:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

100-FACs soon

Right now there are 97 FACs on the list. I recall when there used to be no more than 40 or so. Some have been there since Sept. I don't recall us ever hitting the 100-FACs at once limit before. I can't help but wonder if Raul654 is overtaxed on his FA director duties.Sumoeagle179 (talk) 20:15, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

We've hit and surpassed 100 quite a few times in the last few months; Raul is letting FACs go longer than he used to. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I remember, there were about 130 or so FACs before the last facification. And this has happened in the past also, if I remember correctly. DSachan (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

But is the current trend because Raul has less time to spend on it or some other reason? Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:37, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea. Probably Sandy should shed some light on it. I was also wondering it last time. DSachan (talk) 22:42, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Because allowing more time means more issues are being addressed during FAC and more articles can ultimately succeed to FA status. If you look at many articles at the bottom of the list, you'll see that if Raul had to close sooner, many of them would fail. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Is that such a bad thing? It seems like a lot of articles get posted to FAC which need to be more thoroughly peer-reviewed first. The FAC process, IMO, ought to be a relatively simple up-or-down vote, with some minor discussions about dashes or image sizes if needed. Instead, I see people nominating articles in order to find out what they should work on. I've thought it might be good to have something on the FAC page about how this isn't a peer-review process.

I was very lucky to have Awadewit guide me through my first FAC, and she stressed the need for multiple PRs and thorough going-over before annoying people with Honoré de Balzac. I see the FAC flood as a problem stemming in part from an overload of people shooting in the dark for the star, and then scrambling to fix things on the fly when people oppose.

Maybe it's just me. – Scartol • Tok 23:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

It could be both reasons. PR is pretty much a waste of time--lots of articles don't even get looked at. The longer the FAC list gets, the less time the few reviewers we have spend on each article. I see the concern with Raul654, simply because of the time it takes to do all his wiki jobs, it's no doubt for him equivalent to a full time job. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:02, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If every FAC reviewer will try to do one Peer review daily, PR could regain usefulness, and articles would come to FAC better prepared. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

But they don't, so let's deal in reality here. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Aawww give it a chance, there's just been a big overhaul 'n' all...cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:47, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

what big overhaul? — Rlevse • Talk • 13:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe that's a valid concern. I have never been convinced by the rather opaque FA system (no clear time limit, no explanation for the decision), depending as it does on the judgement of one person who will inevitably find himself increasingly over-worked as the volume of nominations increases. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 01:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll be archiving it in the near future (like tomorrow or Monday). Raul654 (talk) 05:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The PR overhaul is being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Content review/workshop. Marskell (talk) 10:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Delegation

I know people have been saying for some time now that I need to delegate some of the work I do here. I have said that I didn't feel like it was too much, and that I didn't need a deputy. Well, with trends in FAC (towards ever more nominations - 100+ at a time now), I've re-evaluated my position on the matter, and I've come to the conclusion that I do need some help.

To that end, I've decided to name user:SandyGeorgia as my proxy here. The role will be essentially equivalent for the FAC to what Marskell and Joel31 do on FAR - she'll close nominations as either successful or unsuccessful, and interpret policies about what an article should or should not contain, and what is and is not an actionable objection - all just the same as I would. I don't intend to delegate the FAC as much as I do the FAR - I'll still be doing a significant portion of the promotions, but the job has become too big for one person to do it on a voluntary basis. It's possible that a second person might not be enough to break the logjam here - so I'm keeping open the possibility of having a third person do it. (I already have someone in mind.)

Lastly, succession issues come up from time to time. People ask me what will happen if I go on vacation or get hit by a bus. The FA director essentially has three big jobs - FAC, FAR, and scheduling the main page. (On those occasions when I do take a vacation, I can schedule FAs for the main page ahead of time and the FAC is robust enough to be unattended alone for a few days) If the worst should happen to me (knock on wood), I expect that Marskell could handle the FAR and Sandy the FAC. I haven't decided what to do about the main page scheduling - I consider that at some future juncture. Raul654 (talk) 20:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)