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Welcome to the discussion board for German-speaking Wikipedians! Feel free to discuss topics and articles of interest in either English or German. As this is the English-speaking Misplaced Pages, discussion in German may be requested for translation for non-German speakers. Happy editing!

Willkommen zum Diskussionsforum der deutschsprachigen Wikipedianer! Hier kannst du auf Deutsch oder auf Englisch über relevante Themen und Artikel diskutieren. Da dies die englische Misplaced Pages ist, kann jederzeit eine Übersetzung der Diskussion ins Englische angefordert werden. Viel Spaß!

Map translation request

Can de:Bild:Münchner abkommen4.png be translated and uploaded to Commons? Our Munich Agreement is missing a map and this seems like a good free candidate.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:06, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationality (Entering the minefield)

I am updating some German chemists and now I have a problem with the scientists info box entries. For example:

• Heinrich Limpricht (1827-1909) is Residence German Empire and Nationality Oldenburgian, then German
• Adolf von Baeyer (1835 - 1917) is Residence Germany and Nationality German

The problem of who is which nationality and is a German Empire German a BRD German or is this a discontinuety or what ever, is a question I will not ask!

I had this discussion already with if Fritz Pregl (1869 – 1930) is a Slowenian. This question I would deny because Slowenia was never a independant nation while he lived making him an Austria Hungaryan and later a State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbsan and later Kingdom of Yugoslavian. But this should be done by people who whant to fight about it. I will encounter the Problem with Poland and Elsaß early enough.

I only want a hint which of the two methods is prefered! --Stone 15:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

German nationality

Until 1913 there was no German nationality in a legal sense, only the nationality of one of the souverain German states. In 1913 the Reichstag passed the Reichs- und Staatsangehörigkeitsgesetz (RuStG), which was amended several times later on. It did not introduce a direct German nationality, but an indirect one. So a citizen of the Free Hanseatic City of Hamburg would have the Hamburg nationality and a Hamburg passport, which made him indirectly a citizen of the German Reich (1913-1934). This was changed by the Nazi-goverment through the 1934 amendment of the RuStG, then creating a direct German nationality for all those belonging to the "Reich" as defined by the amended RuStG. The West-German Grundgesetz from 1949 has a definition for German persons. Its "German in the sense of the Grundgesetz" is wider than the "German nationality" under the RuStG (kept until 1999).--Kresspahl 16:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Perfect for a lawyer but it does not help me with my question! Nationality is not defined by laws or birth only but also by heritage, making everything complicated. Staatsangehörigkeit and Nationalität I like more for these kind of definitions!

But still I need an answer!--Stone 16:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

I think in cases like these, using "German", while technically inaccurate, is what readers expect. The flags are impossible to get right, but 99%+ of biographies should not have images of flags anyway (only biographies of flag designers etc. benefit from adding flag images). Kusma (talk) 12:38, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Flags are pointless in most bios. Maybe they are useful for politicians and soldiers, to illustrate which state(s) or army(s) they represented (sometimes changing).-- Matthead      O       13:50, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages really needs better guidelines regarding nationality. Due to changing borders, many famous Germans/Austrians/Prussians are claimed by present countries as "he lived here, so he's one of ours". See Gregor Mendel for a current ongoing editwar/debate.-- Matthead      O       13:58, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Categories

A prior discussion about categorization of Germans/German-speakers has got me thinking. Using the previously created Category:German natives of East Prussia and Category:German natives of Silesia as examples, I had created additional categories, such as Category:German natives of West Prussia (for more, see Category:German people by state, which is currently missing Bremen). However, I am doubting that this is the best way to approach the issue. It makes sense to categorize people according to the specific principality/state when they were born, but the current "German natives of" scheme is problematic with some territories.

Some of the current categories can be confusing on ethnic grounds, which are often subjective. When should we differentiate between a "German from Alsace" and an "Alsatian"? Bohemia, Moravia, and Austrian Silesia had substantial German-speaking populations, but were never part of "Germany". How/should we categorize such individuals? Should they be merged into Category:Sudeten Germans? Or should that latter category only refer to the late 19th/20th century concept of Sudeten Germans, or strictly to the Nazi era?

"East Prussia" is another problematic case. It was only formally created as a province of Prussia in 1773, but the phrase has frequently been used to refer to the territory of the Duchy of Prussia (1525-1701) and sometimes earlier. Should German natives of East Prussia be restricted to post-1773? King Frederick I of Prussia was born in Königsberg while it was part of Ducal Prussia; should Category:People from the Duchy of Prussia be created? What about people born in East Prussia between 1701 (elevation of the duchy to the Kingdom of Prussia) and 1773 (creation of Province of East Prussia)? What about when East Prussia was merged with West Prussia into the Province of Prussia (1824-1878)?

A possible solution is to do away with the ethnic classification of "German natives of" and instead categorize solely on citizenship. To avoid cluttering up the root German people by state category, People from former German states could be created as a subcategory. For example, the articles in German natives of Silesia could be split into People from the Province of Silesia, People from the Province of Lower Silesia, and People from the Province of Upper Silesia, based on when/where they were born. The controversial Jan Dzierzon (is he German, Polish, or Silesian?) would be included within People from the Province of Silesia, a subcategory of Category:People from Prussia, itself a subcategory of People from former German states. Of course, that wouldn't help with pre-1740 (First Silesian War) articles- should they be included within a People from Austrian Silesia category? "German" Alsatians could be restricted to People from Alsace-Lorraine, referring solely to the territory/era of the German Empire.

Since Prussian history can be complicated at times, categories such as People from Royal Prussia and People from the monastic state of the Teutonic Knights or People from the Ordensstaat could be created.

Thoughts/suggestions/alternatives? Olessi 17:56, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding Category:German natives of Bohemia, an alternative would be to create Category:German Bohemians (i.e. Bohemians of German ethnicity). Olessi 17:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The current Category:German natives of Moravia could be troublesome, as Category:German Moravians would refer to both Moravians of German ethnicity or to members of the Moravian Church (often used in American publications). Perhaps this one should be merged into the aforementioned German Bohemians category. Olessi 17:39, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Because "East Prussia" is widely used in English to refer to both the Duchy of Prussia and the Province of East Prussia, I do not see a significant problem with including residents of both in a single category. Plus, this avoids the questionable 1701-1773 time period. However, Category:People from East Prussia is my preferred title. Olessi 17:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Your idea to drop the nationality and instead simply concentrate on just the regions (eg. People from the Province of Lower Silesia) is IMO the way to go. It might not solve all problems but it is a good start. Nationality could then be introduced as subcategories, if necessary. - 52 Pickup 18:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, the introduction of new categories trying to describe regions is useless as they will get removed from articles anyway by certain users claiming they did not exist as political entities at the time . -- Matthead      O       05:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Space Cadet (talk · contribs) is continuing his removal of Category:German natives of East Prussia, from about two dozen bios today. -- Matthead      O       20:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm just removing people who got added to the category by mistake, because they where born when East Prussia did not exist. Thank You. Space Cadet 20:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Trying to limit the meaning of East Prussia to the two policital subdivisions of Prussia, or claiming that some were added by mistake, is an interesting exercise in Wikilawyering. East Prussia, as a historical region, covers about 500 years, also the times of the Monastic state, the Duchy, and the Province of the mid-19th century. Only Category:German natives of West Prussia is an alternative if more appropriate - deletion is not. In Category:German people by state, people are listed under present German states even when born centuries before these were formed, like Israhel van Meckenem. Thank you for quitting your destructive behaviour towards a useful category for undisputedly German speaking persons now. -- Matthead      O       21:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not being disruptive, I'm just correcting mistakes. East Prussia was an administative region (with changing borders) of the Kingdom of Prussia, later of Germany. Why do you feel it's so important to promote a popular stereotype over actual truth? Only because the mistake was spotted by a Pole? Stop your Polononphobic games now! Space Cadet 21:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't you shout, there is no need for it. And ain't be silly.--Kresspahl 22:00, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and when I got shouted at by your homeboy Matthead then it was OK, right? Also, don't call me names or I'll report you! Space Cadet 22:11, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"Polononphobic" is - as far as I can judge - a senseless term in English, the appropiate term would be something like "Polophobic", but I think that this is not the appropiate level for a serious discussion about historical questions (and their implications) at Misplaced Pages. WWII is over now for more than 60 years, so maybe we can let emotions out of this and discuss on the basis of facts.

And a good advise to our polish friend: At Misplaced Pages, bringing good (proven) arguments is always better than using bad words, breaking the 3R-rule and getting blocked for this. In the long run, aggresive stile and dubious edits doen't succeed, its the facts and their exhibition in a serious discussion that count. -- Rfortner 23:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Polonia in Latin is Poland, therefore Polonophobia. And I don't recall Kresspahl or Matthead "bringing good (proven) arguments" but they are your homies so that's OK. East Prussia existed 1772 - 1829, 1878 - 1918 in one set of borders, then 1918 -1938 in another set, then finally for seven years 1938 - 1944 it included Memelland again. Calling people who were born outside those timeframes "German Natives of East Prussia" is like calling everybody born in Berlin a native of German Democratic Republic. Space Cadet 00:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

SpaceCadet, I think you are misguided, nobody here is my "homie" (whatever you mean with this term), I am disgusted by any kind of nationalism, irrepective if it is German or Polish nationalism (and maybe you know, that also we Austrians had to suffer from German nationalism). I just reminded you, that in a controversy debate proven arguments and a consens-willing-attitude are the best way to convince people, while any kind of "aggressive" stile in a dicussion will strongly minimize your standing. About the "phobie": At least an "n" was too much in your posting ;-) -- Rfortner 09:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I was misguided. Or rather jealous of how Germans can always stick together and back each other up. I wish it was true for my people. But here in the States, where I live, the worst enemy of a Pole is not German, Russian or Jewish but another Pole. Polonophobia is really the way it is spelled. Really. Happy editing, your friend Space Cadet 15:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but you wrote "Polononphobic", so there was at least one "n" to much ;-) ... By the way: I am not German, I am Austrian. And telling an Austrian that he is German is normaly not very nice, as we struggled long enough to get independent (So to be clear: We are "german-speaking" but we are not "Germans"). And I am not so sure if - for example - Matthead and I would always agree about every part of our common history, but at least we will discuss it in an open discussion here at Misplaced Pages. Therefore I am a little bit scared when you talk about "enemies", irrespective of their nationality, as Misplaced Pages is an international project where we all should work to find a common sense, instead of starting "combats" (which one normally does with enemies). -- Rfortner 15:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I understand. And when I said "enemies" I only meant people not being very nice towards each other. I am not a nationalist, either. Space Cadet 16:07, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

This edit of yours is only one example of your ongoing campaign of deleting Category:German natives of East Prussia from biographies of persons undisputedly being born in the historic region East Prussia, the main part of Prussia (region), where Germans have a 500+ year history. Your claim the category applies only to the periods 1773-1829 and 1878-1945 in which the Province of East Prussia existed as a separate province, but not for 1829 - 1878 when it was merged to Province of Prussia, is petty-minded at best. You have claimed you will definitely try to learn from this experience during the recent Community sanction noticeboard: Proposal to ban User:Space Cadet from German-Polish-related topics, yet all you do is continue in even worse manner. Unless there is a more appropriate category for that area in Category:German people by state, you shall not vandalise biographies by removing the geograpical classification for any German being born there before 1946.-- Matthead      O       02:19, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

What worse manner? I'm helping you guys to correct a mistake that occurred probably by accident. Why do you bring up the Sanction Noticeboard, where I was wrongfully accused of stuff by your buddy Sciurinæ? What does it have to do with anything? East Prussia was not a "historical region" but an administrative unit that lasted only in timeframes mentioned above. Now I am not questioning that those people whose biographies contain mistakes are German. Also I'm not removing those who actually were born in East Prussia. But East Prussia was NOT a historical region. Sorry. Space Cadet 07:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Besides, you can create those missing categories yourself. Don't be lazy. Come on: German natives of Province of Prussia, German natives of Ducal Prussia, German natives of the Monastic state of the Teutonic Knights - and you're done! This last one would probably be even empty, because I don't remember anybody from there. Happy editing and I mean it! Space Cadet 07:27, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned when I started this discussion, I don't support classifying these biographies in terms of location by ethnicity, preferring instead sorting by citizenship regardless of ethnicity. The current categories are a mixture of both - shouldn't there be a Category:People from East Prussia before there is a Category:German natives of East Prussia? Plus, the preferred category naming style is "People from", not "Natives of".

Regarding Category:German natives of Silesia, for instance, is this referring to German citizens who lived in the Province of Silesia (or other Silesian entities), or ethnically German Silesians? As an example, Joseph Maria Olbrich was a German-speaker who grew up in Troppau, but he was not a citizen of Germany. I would thus recommend a Category:People from Austrian Silesia for such individuals. Regarding Category:German natives of Silesia, I would suggest dividing that into Category:German Silesians or Category:Silesian Germans, a subcategory of Category:German people by ethnic or national origin, and also place people into Category:People from the Province of Silesia (or other relevant Silesian entities). Olessi 22:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Categories can always be put in question. Now for the ethnic German East Prussians, a category makes sense to me. There were indeed a peripheric part of the German nation/people/ethnic groups (cf. Category:Baltic Germans). And I don't see any logic in the nonsensical argument that East Prussia somehow disappeared in the 19th century, only because it was for a time part of a united province with West Prussia. What East Prussia historically was, when it came into existence etc., is to be discussed here: East Prussia. PS: This is all history now. Poles and Germans are friendly nations, not enemies. And forget about the Lunatic Fringe! --DaQuirin 20:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course Poles and Germans are best friends, but then why are you calling my edits nationalistic? Space Cadet 21:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Space Cadet, where did DaQuirin call your edits nationalistic? Hardly in the comment right above yours. -- Matthead      O       00:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

, , Space Cadet 12:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I think, our nationalistic Space Warrior is on a mission here - a perfect premium member of a any new Misplaced Pages members Category in the field. Your argument that East Prussia was only an administrative unit is completely childish. You may discuss it here: East Prussia. Where did you get this theory from? --DaQuirin 12:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not nationalistic. I'm not on a mission. Where did you take your theory that East Prussia was anything more than an administrative unit from? Please provide a modern (post 2000) source. You may discuss it on my Talk page. Space Cadet 13:06, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for calling you "nationalistic". I ddn't mean it. You should watch it too. I'm not gonna report a fellow Wikipedian for his childish games, but somebody else might. Space Cadet 13:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Just friends would be O.K. after what happened in the last century. Why are you so fixated with eliminating long-gone East Prussia from a category? What is your motivation? --DaQuirin 21:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Truth, Logic and Common Sense! That's my motivation. Do you always answer questions with another question? That's fine, but this time I urge you to answer "why are you calling my edits nationalistic?" Remember that calling somebody a nationalist "just for fun", without adequate reasoning is a reportable offense! And I'm not removing long gone East Prussia, I'm just returning it to it's proper time frames. Space Cadet 21:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Why do I call nationalistic edits nationalism? A difficult question. For people like you, there is a rule: Deep in your heart, you always love what you are hating. You have strong feelings, I see. You are an Polish-American or emigrant? I wish you could come home and see your country rise to glory (maybe with future cabinet members that do not spy against each other). Our nations will be friends - you may not like it, but we don't have a choice anyway. --DaQuirin 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

You're a true Master of avoiding answers to straight forward questions and of dodging points based on common sense. I bow to You, Sir. Space Cadet 21:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

So be serious. You are interested in the administrative history of 19th century Prussia? I must admit, I can't believe it. But if you like, we can discuss. For some time forming a united province, East Prussia and West Prussia were separated again, because they were two different historical entities. Now the Ermland, and on and on.... --DaQuirin 21:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I am serious, ironically. My hobby and passion is History of Prussia. All of it. Even the pagan times. And even today. I am Polish - American, and yes, ages ago I was an immigrant. What was that you started to say about Ermland? Finish the sentence please. And after that why don't you do expand on the difference in borders of East Prussia between let's say 1880 and 1936? Space Cadet 22:14, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

The borders changed indeed in the (Catholic) Ermland region, so what? In the ex post perspective, it became finally East Prussia when West Prussia disappeared (first) from the map. (Sorry, with Prussia you mean only what was called "West and East Prussia"?) So you may eliminate some people from there from the East Prussia category, great thing. A hobby like yours is perfectly O.K., but it is always difficult if the clear view is hindered by too strong emotions. Your Province of Prussia argument looks a bit childish, to say it very politlely (ja, ja, the good old Provincial Prussians!). By the way, being fixated on Categories, is a dangerous sign... Studying history always means trying to take different angles, but this not what you are up to, right? Seen from 20th century, the German-Polish history is a mess. But going deeper into this, it is far more complex (a German pope, 'designed' by a Polish Pope, still unbelievable!). Thanks to the Polish editors especially here and in the German wikipedia I have learned about a different perspective on Polish history. So you won for tonight, Polish-American Edit-War King! --DaQuirin 22:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I will continue on my talk page if you don't mind. Space Cadet 12:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Call your own homie Matthead an "Edit-War King", he just got banned again for 3RR.Space Cadet 13:36, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

As fascinating as the above discussion has been, is anyone interested in discussing the proper categorization of biographical articles regarding the questions I have raised? Olessi 18:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

There are too many categories here, but this is only a personal point of view. You could solve your problem with a joint Category:Germans from West and East Prussia. It is not a perfect solution, but should answer various claims. --DaQuirin 03:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I would personally prefer to have categories for (country, state or province of birth). That means quite a lot of categories for the Holy Roman Empire, but we could avoid claiming that Joseph Goebbels was from North Rhine-Westphalia (he was born in the Rhine Province of the Kingdom of Prussia; NRW was not established until after his death). David Hilbert should be in a category that says he was born in the Province of Prussia and another one that says he was born in Königsberg; that Königsberg was part of an administrational area called "East Prussia" at other times is no more relevant for Hilbert's bio than that it is in Russia now. Georg Forster, born close to Danzig, was not a native of West Prussia, but of Royal Prussia, part of Poland. I don't think the people born in a certain place need to be further sub-categorized by nationality or ethnicity. Perhaps we should use detailed category names like Category:People born in the Rhine Province, which is more exact than "from". Kusma (talk) 08:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Kusma's suggestions. I have initiated a renaming discussion at Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 October 13#Category:German natives of.... Olessi 18:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to point out that neither David Hilbert nor Georg Forster, nor too many others, have any category pointing to their provenance, due to deletions by you-know-who, or due to complicated categories like "People of the Duchy of Mecklenburg-Strelitz-Ducksburg" preventing editors picking any category at all. I oppose an overcomplicated atomization in favour of a simple regional structure as proposed in Category:German people by state:‎ 16 regions according to current state borders, and 8 historic regions. Additional subcategories as you please, but only as subcategories. -- Matthead      O       08:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I have to point out that as of now both David Hilbert and Georg Forster, and many others, have a category pointing to their provenance, due to constructive edits by "you-know-who" also known as Space Cadet 22:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Mistranslated source

Hi there. I'm working on the article on Emma Watson, and one of the key sources we're working with is an interview with the German press. Someone's done enough of a translation to permit us including some references, but the translation is not really perfect. The article is pushing featured article candidacy so we'd really like someone fluent in German to have a look at the source, find out where the quote is coming from, check the references are valid, and see if they can give us a better translation. If anyone is interested in helping, please have a look at the details on the talk page. Many thanks in advance. Happy-melon 18:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

German journal CotW

The Academic Journals project has selected Astronomische Nachrichten as our Collaboration of the Week. It would be great if a few German speaking Wikipedians put this article on their watchlist and kept an eye on us. :-) I have just translated Astronomische Gesellschaft from the German article and last week it was Oriens Christianus. John Vandenberg 05:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

propaganda

servus. es gibt einen schlimmen beständigen zustand den ich anprangern will. propagandisten können mühelos diese wikipedia dazu verwenden um seiten nach zweifelhafter geschichtsschreibung abzuändern. schaut mal User:Molobo an. er gehörte zu den aktivsten wikipedianern und alles was er gemacht hat und macht kann man dem polnischen nationalismus zuordnen. viele seiner änderungen sind drin geblieben und kaum einen kümmert es. das ist keine übertreibung und er findet sogar noch zeit die russen zu nerven. warum bastelt Ihr unbezahlt zu gunsten eines projekts herum wenn doch die glaubwürdigkeit die Ihr aufbaut letztendlich ihm und dergleichen in die hände spielt?--20:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.190.200.171 (talk • contribs)

Rough translation (by Matthead):The editor complains about misuse by propagandists which seems to bother few if any, as edits remain. He asks why we contribute to a project without being paid for, trying to bolster its credibility, when that is abused as a propaganda platform?

I wholeheartedly agree. Many articles regarding German issues suffer from the relentless activity of a small, but very active group with a very narrow focus. While some with an open anti-German bias broke the rules and got themselves blocked or banned, some manage to bend the rules time and again, out-wearing all other editors. Misplaced Pages in general suffers from this, and frankly, I am convinced it has "jumped the shark" long time ago, as the stats recently published show. Instead of quality content, we get only mediocre articles under constant fire by POV-pushers and vandals. And those should be treated as acting in Good faith, to add to the insult. Misplaced Pages really needs to get its act together, abandoning old policies, and adapting stricter ones.-- Matthead      O       04:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

hee? quite funny you are talking bout quality. aren't you the one stating "heil dir löschpedia" in the german edition? sorry but you seem to miss the bigger picture, if you want to have a higher standard of quality you need to sort out bad quality entrys, which can't be improved eighter due waht reason ever. 80.133.177.172 00:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking interest, and for desisting from mangling quotes you apparently don't understand at all. -- Matthead      O       12:26, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

i was talking about User:Molobo, what he does to wikipedia and how no one bothers, as matthead summaried. you're right, that we need to sort out bad quality entrys. who does want to help?--21:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.190.200.171 (talk)

The first step would be registering an account. Steps 2 to ∞ : editing. Hit-and-run complaining doesn't solve anything. -- Matthead      O       18:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like another job for the Space Cadet. I love to "sort out bad quality entrys", as you call them. Space Cadet 22:13, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Recently I (not singlehandedly, but with some substantial help from Olessi) "sorted out a bad quality" Category: German Natives of East Prussia.Space Cadet 22:22, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

County vs. district revisited

I thought we had settled how to translate (Land)kreis a year and a half ago after the discovery of the EU's recommended translation of "District" discussed at /Archive 2#EU "official" translation of Kreis, where I got the terms now used from in the first place. However, a user has now moved Districts of Germany to Counties of Germany. It seems to me it should be moved back. Discussion at Talk:Counties of Germany#country vs district . —Angr 09:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Zieten

Input would be appreciated at Talk:Hans Ernst Karl, Graf von Zieten regarding the best title for the article. Names considered so far have been "Hans Ernst Karl, Graf von Zieten" and "Hans Ernst Karl von Zieten". Olessi 23:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

St. Hedwig, patron of Silesian expellees?

Could somebody verify this - see also Talk:Hedwig of Andechs. Seems WP:ORish. Thanks, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk} 09:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)