Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:12, 2 December 2007

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Discrimination This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Politics This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. LGBTQ+ studies This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Misplaced Pages. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Judaism Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Judaism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Judaism-related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JudaismWikipedia:WikiProject JudaismTemplate:WikiProject JudaismJudaism Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5

Militant Neo Nazi in Frankonia.

A militant neo nazi in frankonia. ITS ALL IT IS. Sorry if you dont want neo nazi's in frankonia but their just is. So stop slandering my work or I will request that wikipedia deletd the image as I dont know how it even became on here! ] 18:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)]

Why would we care exactly where the person is? Why would we refer to the area by the name used on the Middle Ages? Jayjg 16:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Frankonia is always Frankonia to me as a rose is a rose ANYWHERE you go in the world. Middle Ages? Hmm... Come here... Alot of signs that say "Franken"! Why do we have our own dialect? You sir are as bad as Stalin. Usurpsynapse 22:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

So a nazi took a photo of himself and uploaded it to wikipedia? ROFL. --P4k 04:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you have evidence of that? If so we should remove it. If not we should remove that silly caption. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 06:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well User:Usurpsynapse claims that the person in the photo is his friend here but I guess we don't have to believe him. The image page was created by Usurpsynapse but doesn't contain any more information about where the picture came from.--P4k 00:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Btw if you want an image of a Nazi (well, a National Bolshevik Party member) which claims to be a self-portrait there's one here. Part of my reason for suspecting that this is a self-portrait or a picture of one of the photographer's friends is just that that seems to often be the case with Misplaced Pages pictures of non-famous people in private environments (eg this one and this one). If the subject or one of his friends didn't take the picture, who did? --P4k 00:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

If I took and posted a picture of a building, maybe claiming it to be a historical landmark, would other editors seek to rename it, "A building some Misplaced Pages editor took a picture of"? Yes, that would be an accurate caption, but it doesn't help the reader understand the reason for the photograph. I suppose if we doubt that the guy really is a neo-Nazi in Germany we could say something like "Purported neo-Nazi posing with rifle". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Considering we don't know anything about its provenance, I'm not certain there is a reason for the photograph. I mean it's really arresting but it doesn't actually tell the reader anything. FWIW the original Wikimedia commons page doesn't say anything about the guy's nationality (or anything else). The caption I wrote was obviously obnoxious but it's a moot point now. --P4k 01:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The text now reads:

• A militant neo-Nazi holding a rifle.

Which is harmless. Isn't "militant" redundant with "neo-Nazi"? Are there non-militant neo-Nazis? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

look, i was doing a report and i took numerous foto's this day. unfortunatly i abandoned the report to write on a deomonstration. it was about 2 years ago for a uni paper. i just find it funny how people cant say what it is.... the person in the foto is not me, his name is flo and lives in nürnberg area. the rifle from what i remember is a 30-06 calibre and had a scope, it was bolt action as he was the main scharfschutze. Usurpsynapse 22:15, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

i straightened it out with the uploader. from now on all my images will be watermarked. thanks.

Usurpsynapse 00:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Croatia - latest changes

As to the anonymous contribution - it depicts the latest events in Croatia and it is fully referenced. However, I removed

a) blockquotes from the English language references due to the fact that those references are short and online accessible;

b) blockquotes from the Croatian references (the original texts and their translations) - due to the fact that the same references are online accessible and the other foreign language references here, are not quoted then translated - so, what I did - is for the sake of the section coherency and readability.

--NovaNova 21:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

• Why did you reverse those improvements and re-add block quotes and unnecessary extra text in footnotes? And why did you re-introduce grammar and spelling mistakes to the section? Substandard English grammar makes the article look unprofessional. And why do you keep making edit notes that don't actually represent the changes you have made? It's very frustrating to see necessary language and formatting corrections be repeatedly destroyed, and to see edit notes that don't even come close to accurately describing what has been done.Spylab 22:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, be civilised - support your 'grammar' alteration by quoting the English grammar rules, avoid selling the text mutilations as grammar corrections. Also, do not edit the text referenced in the language (Serbo-Croatian) you cannot read and understand. Acquire a valid and sufficient knowledge of the subject you are trying to discuss!--NovaNova 01:59, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

• It's very obvious that neither you, nor the anonymous IP editor care about proper grammar, spelling, formatting or neutrality, so I added tags to point out that fact instead of causing an edit war with destructive and counterproductive editors who don't understand Misplaced Pages guidelines. As it stands, the Croatia section is very unprofessional and doesn't come near to meeting encyclopedic standards. Spylab 11:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to demonstrate an effective knowledge of the subject - in order to support your claims. As advised - be civil and avoid tutoring others about profesionalism (this is an amateurs encyclopaedia), standards, and rules. Profesionalism requires a valid and verifiable knowledge which you obviously lack.--72.75.18.173 22:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

List of mistakes/weaknesses in Croatia section

1. There should be a link to a Misplaced Pages article explaining what the term the West refers to, for unfamiliar readers.- At the end of World War II, many of Pavelić's Ustaše members fled to the West, where they found sanctuary and continued their political and terrorist activities (which were tolerated because of Cold War hostilities).

• Use any good dictionary of the contemporary English.--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but "the West" could also mean "the Western part of a certain country" as in, say, Western Italy if we're talking about an Italy-related article. For example, "In Italy, there are more Croatian communities in the East, whereas French communities dot the West." I know you mean "the West" to mean "the Western World, commonly used to refer to Western Europe and North America," but I'm just giving an example of how the term might be confusing for some readers. - Pandacomics 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes - that is the reason for all educated men to have a good modern English dictionary at hand. The word 'West' is used here in the proper and clear semantic context - so nothing is confusing. As you might not know, any living language grammar is not a context free grammar.--Modelsides 12:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Spelling of a particular word should be the same throughout the article; in this case Ustaše, Ustashe or Ustasha. Only one spelling must be used here.

• Nonsense! Adopted spelling is Ustaše in this section. The quoted text cannot be fixed your way - this is against basic rules of the English grammar.--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

He means "if you're going to use a particular spelling, stick with it." It wouldn't make sense to call you Giogrio in one sentence, and George the next. If the real spelling is Ustaše, then by all means, change all variations to Ustaše. - Pandacomics 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Please, read very carefuly Giorgio's concern - it is not possible i.e it is meaningless to fix the spelling the way it was proposed. You are not allowed to alter the quoted text! All otside the quoted text uses exclusively Ustaše. And - what is your reason for this 'explanation'???--Modelsides 12:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Footnotes always go at ends of sentences, and are not prefaced by phrases such as "as per" -To many of their modern supporters, the Ustaše are considered merely victims of the (historically questionable, as per ) Bleiburg massacre, and the late president Franjo Tuđman even proposed to rebury them together with victims of the Jasenovac concentration camp, as a sign of national reconciliation.

• Which grammar rule you are going to refer in order to support the claim above?--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

If you put "as per" at the end of a sentence, it looks unprofessional. If you're going to submit a university paper, for example, you don't tell the instructor, "This is what proteins synthesize under exposure to glow-in-the-dark x-rays, as shown in references number 13, 14, 15, and 16." It ruins the flow of the essay, and almost tells the reader, "you HAVE to look at the references when I want you to!" By putting footnotes at the end of sentences, Spylab means putting a number at the end (e.g. "He said that he would return Monday.") That way, the reader can 1) see that the statement is not baseless, 2) find the original source whenever he/she finds it convenient. - Pandacomics 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Could you, please, avoid throwing meaningless phrases and statements as above? That way you are underminind serious discussion.--Modelsides 12:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Sentences should be actual sentences, and not just side notes like "see this footnote". - (See also ).

• This is a full and a valid sentence according to the grammar.--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a valid sentence, yes, but what Spylab means is that this type of sentence is inappropriate in an encyclopedia. If you look in Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, you're not going to see "Paris is the capital of France" followed by "See this book, but you will need to buy it first through Amazon because it is currently out of print." The article is about Paris, and yet...it's advertising a book that's sourced? You can see how absurd that would be. In this article, you can always just insert a footnote by putting a link like this: . That way, readers can click there to see if the original author really said such a thing. - Pandacomics 01:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

This still is not a reason to remove, paraphrase, or alter the already written sentence.--Modelsides 12:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Footnotes always go at the ends of sentences, and the year of the event should be included, not just the month. Also, it is unnecessary to use the word "official" in front of "criminal investigation" because all criminal investigations are official. - As per , "the Austrian authorities had launched an official criminal investigation into the widespread display of fascist Ustasha symbols at the May 12 gathering of Croatian nationalists in Bleiburg, Austria."

• Which grammar rule you are going to refer in order to support the claim above? unnecessary to use the word "official"??? Do not you see that the 'unnecessary' word is a part of the quoted text??? Which grammar rule demands fixing the quoted text???--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

He means that it is redundant to use the word "official" because all criminal investigations, by definition, are official as long as they're reported in the news. Similarly, it would be unnecessary to say "free" in the phrase "free gift," because all gifts are free (gift, by definition, is something given to someone for free). Instead, you can just say "gift" and we'd know that the item was free.

No matter what he means - he must know that a quoted text shall not be altered.--Modelsides 12:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. A plain-English explanation of the uncommon phrase "law authenticity interpretation" should be added. - In 2005, the Croatian government made a move toward the Nazi-era law interpretation and practice, by granting exclusive rights to the Croatian parliament for the law authenticity interpretation.

• Which grammar rule you are going to refer in order to support the claim above?--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is a matter of "a phrase that's unclear for the general public." Not everyone is as familiar with the topic of Neo-Nazism in Croatia as you are. Perhaps it's a process in the Croatian government that pertains with Neo-Nazism in some way? I don't know. That's why it would ideally be clarified. - Pandacomics 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Familiarity with the topic is not an issue here. Whoever wants to be familiarized - shall read the article and the references. What a general public might think - it is not known here.--Modelsides 12:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. This whole terribly-written run-on sentence should be split into two and re-written by someone who understands correct English grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax. Also, the English-language reference does not support the claim that the actions were taken "en masse" (the correct spelling of the term, by the way).- His concert, held on May 17. 2007 in Zagreb, attended by 60 000 people, who were wearing Ustaše uniforms en-mass, saluted the Ustaše way, and shouted the Ustaše salute "Za dom spremni" (For home(land) ready)- which prompted the Simon Wiesenthal Center, Jerusalem, to publicly address a protest to the Croatian President Mesić.

• What are you talking about??? Did you read the reference at all??? In one of them you can read: "outrage and disgust in the wake of a massive show of fascist salutes, symbols and uniforms at a rock concert by popular ultra-nationalist Croatian singer Thompson,"--Giorgio Orsini 22:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The "rule" (there aren't fixed rules, English grammar is based on what arrangement of words would form the most articulate meaning) is that run-on sentences are messy. They're messy because phrases keep getting added on, and on, and on, and on, and on. In this sentence, there is simply way too much information, as noted by the numerous commas. It would not be unreasonable to split up the sentence so that some information is in one sentence, and the remaining information is in another sentence. - Pandacomics 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The incriminted sentence is already 'remodelled' - as you might see. So, it was already out of the scope.--Modelsides 12:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

1. Footnotes aren't supposed to look like this. -

Homeland Calling: exile patriotism and the Balkan wars by Paul Hockenos, Cornell University Press 2003 Page 28

Power and Persuasion: Ideology and Rhetoric in Communist Yugoslavia, 1944-1953 by Carol S. Lilly

Westview Press 2001 Page 109

The first books about the alleged Bleibirg massacre appeared after 1990 - based only on memoirs

Video, War and the Diasporic Imagination by Dona Kolar-Panov, Routledge 1997 Page 116

The story of Bleiburg was to fill the newspapers and to get considerable media attention in Croatia, and some of the media campaign reached Australia, but most of the members of the audience were not sure about 'what really happened' mainly because the 'after war death camps' and their victims inhabitated the blurry space between myth and reality

The Formation of Croatian National Identity: A Centuries-old Dream by Alex J. Bellamy, Manchester University Press 2003 Page 71

The crisis was resolved when Tudjman 'discovered' that among the bones already at Jasenovac were some returned from Bleiburg after the war, so no bodies neded to be exhumed and moved

Hopefully someone will correct these blatant errors because every time I do so, the corrections are unjustifiably destroyed and I am falsely accused of vandalism by people who clearly do not understand proper grammar and formatting. Spylab 16:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Before claiming something like 'by someone who understands correct English grammar, spelling, punctuation and syntax' - you have to verify the validity of your claims by reading and then referring a contemporary English grammar rules/book. Generic disqualifications like this are un-clivil and offensive. Also, your understanding how an article shall be written is not a rule for other editors.--72.75.18.173 14:34, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to have to side with Spylab on this one. This isn't a matter of "this is stated in rule 348923 of the official English grammar book." This is a matter of using proper English. Publications usually appear at the end of an article in its own appendix, frequently labelled as "Works Cited." That way, if readers are interested to see if the author isn't making up information, they can look up the publications. - Pandacomics 01:18, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

'This is a matter of using proper English' can be regarded only if the knowledge of proper English is demonstrated. Apparently, the proper English does not require 'fixing' the quoted text according someone's perception that it was not gramatically (semantically) correct. Yes, state which grammar book supports your knowledge i.e. give us the book title, author(s) names, publisher, and year. Refer to a chapter, a paragraph, and a page - in order to support a claim that something in the article text shall be corrected this or that way. Sidelining with someone (Spylab) must be explained by valid reasons. Also, the publications are given at the end of this article, as you might see any time - under See Also, Footnotes, Bibliography, and External Links.--Modelsides 12:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• Note that Modelsides has been permanently banned for being a confirmed sock puppet of Giorgio Orsini, and that Giorgio Orsini has been blocked for 72 hours for sock puppetry. Spylab 13:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Definition of "law authenticity interpretation"?

There is still no definition of the obscure phrase "law authenticity interpretation" in the Croatia section of this article. The only reference for that sentence is an article that's not in English, and the only results that come up in a Google search of that uncommon term are websites that duplicate this Misplaced Pages article. English-language Misplaced Pages articles should not be using terms that nobody understands.Spylab 13:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Common phrase used in the law. Google is not a tool for getting answers to this type of 'questions'.

An example: RJ Banks, “Matthew's Understanding of the Law: Authenticity and Interpretation in Matthew 5:17-20,” Journal of Biblical Literature 93 (1974):

--NovaNova 17:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I've also never heard the phrase. Even if this is some specialised legal term, an encyclopedia shouldn't use terms only comprehensible to specialists, at least not without explaining them. NovaNova, I'm guessing the source you mention here is a joke, right? Or do you want me to explain gramatically why this is not an example of the expression "law authenticity interpretation"?

So can you (or anyone) please explain what "law authenticity interpretation" is supposed to mean here? Then maybe we can help you replace it with a clearer form of words. Thank you. SociableLiberal 21:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Mea culpa. One 'and' is missing in the phrase above. So, the correct phrase and its rendering shall be:

• the law('s) authenticity and interpretation = authenticity of the law + interpertation of the law

• authenticity of the law = authenticity of the form, content, signatures, seals, version, ... of the document containing the law
• interpertation of the law = who shall interpret the law or its part - if and when required, how shall it be done, recorded, delivered ...

The 'source' above is not a joke - it's a suggestion how to render this phrase using a common sense logic. Also, please, do not explain why the phrase is grammatically incorrect - the grammar does not deal with the correctness of this, or any other, phrase.

--NovaNova 04:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

NovaNova, you really don't see anything wrong with your example, do you? God, this is ridiculous. Spylab, SociableLiberal, you can't seriously discuss the nuances of English with a guy who obviously has a limited understanding of the language. And then he goes and says: please do not explain why the phrase is grammatically incorrect. Hilarious! --Zmaj 10:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Your comment is very 'hilarious'. Use a good dictionary to get the meaning of this word (phrase). About my understanding of English - your comment is limited in civility and good manners.--NovaNova 11:56, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• We're still waiting for an real explanation of what the phrase actually means in the context of the sentence "In 2005, the Croatian government made a move toward the Nazi-era law interpretation and practice, by granting exclusive rights to the Croatian parliament for the law authenticity and interpretation." Even with the allegedly misssing "and" inserted, it doesn't seem to make much sense, and doesn't demonstrate how it is specifically related to the Nazi era. Also, NovaNova stop destroying genuine corrections to grammar and formatting, since you obviously don't know what you're doing.Spylab 13:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Zmaj, I can see you're annoyed with NovaNova, but I have to tell you he's right: you're being uncivil and I don't think it's helpful here. Hopefully we can avoid an actual discussion of grammar. ;-) Spylab, I agree, that sentence needs some work. The reference to the Nazi era must be deleted unless a notable source for the comparison can be found.

NovaNova, as far as I understand what you said above, the end of the sentence should then apparently read "...granted the exclusive right to the parliament to interpret and authenticate the law". (Trust me, I'm an English teacher. ;-) ) However, I wonder whether you mean authentication here (checking the document is genuine). Is it possible that you're talking about checking the constitutionality of the law (whether it's consistent with the constitution)? In which case we would get something like: "In 2005, the Croatian government gave to the parliament the exclusive right to interpret the law and the constitution." Is that what you mean to say? If yes, I have further questions about exactly what this means, how, sources, etc., but maybe I've just misunderstood.

I'm sure with patience and civility we can get this content (or as much as can be verified) into clear English. Thanks NovaNova for trying... SociableLiberal 22:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

SociableLiberal, I see you're a reasonable person. If you say I was uncivil, you must be right. I do lose my patience now and then. I apologize to NovaNova for the tone of my last comment. --Zmaj 23:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• I have removed the sentence until someone can properly explain what it means. Misplaced Pages articles should not include confusing text that nobody (including the person who added it) understands.Spylab 19:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Law's authenticity and interpretation explanation understanding test

Tested the NovaNova's explanation of this phrase among four primary school sixth graders - no one had any problem to understand this phrase. Also, the phrase is in the widespread use as law's authenticity and law's interpretation. A nice usage and explanation of the authenticity of the law can be found in

European Journal of Political Theory, Vol. 4, No. 1, 89-107 (2005) © 2005 SAGE Publications The Rule of Law in the Modern European State Oakeshott and the Enlargement of Europe by David Boucher Cardiff University <quote> ...ment of the authenticity of their source. The rule of law, then, ... It is not enough that the law has authenticity by emanating from recognized ... </quote>

Politics and Process: New Essays in Democratic Thought by H. Geoffrey Brennan, Loren E. Lomasky - Political Science - 1989 - Page 226 <quote> In other words, form, not content, determines a law's authenticity and the obligation to abide by it. Much of the confusion about the character of law ... </quote>

The Power of Legitimacy Among Nations by Thomas Martin Franck, Oxford University Press 1990 - Page 91 <quote> The assent of the Queen to an act of the British Parliament is an example of a cue symbolically validating the new law's authenticity. ... </quote>

--Giorgio Orsini 17:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Giorgio for the citations. You've helped to clarify the exact meaning of authenticity/authenticate in a legal context for us, and I'm happy to take it from you that this is what is meant in this sentence. In this case I think we need the form of words I suggested above: "...granted the exclusive right to the parliament to interpret and authenticate the law".

As for your test, I'm not sure whether you mean to suggest someone is deliberately making difficulties or stupid. Either way I'd be grateful if you could be as reasonable as I'm trying to be.

Further questions:

- Is there an English language source for this information? I couldn't find one. If no English-language medium considered it fit to report, is this fact notable?

- Is there a (preferably English language, but at least notable) source for the interpretation of this change as a return to Nazi-era practice? If not, see WP:SYNTH.

Thanks for caring about the content of Misplaced Pages. I hope you understand that the rest of us do too. SociableLiberal 19:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want to replace the exiting phrase (which is, as to me, quite ok here) by you own words - go ahead. The tone you used when responding to NovaNova looks to me exactly as you said above - '...you mean to suggest someone is...' Maybe, it was not your intention but, please - do not try to mock or ridicule something you do not like or you do not understand. Also, forgive me for being outright this way.--Giorgio Orsini 00:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for finally explaining the meaning of the term and giving an English-language reference (although it would help to be able to actually read the relevant text in the reference instead of just the title of the publication). Now that you seem to understand the necessity of having clear English writing in an English-language encyclopedia, I hope you will refrain from reverting necessary grammar and formatting correction in this, and other Misplaced Pages articles. Spylab 11:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I had a go at tidying NovaNova's version of the Croatia section (which various people seem to have been editwarring over). My hope is that this might help to ultimately resolve the dispute; your feedback is welcome. In summary, I have:

• added citation needed tags for information which appears to be unverified, or WP:SYNTH
• fixed some minor grammar errors etc.
• changed the phrasing slightly in a few places to be more NPOV - note especially the opening sentence, which now reads "Neo-Nazis in Croatia base their ideology on the writings of..." (verifiable) rather than the previous "has roots in" which is an (unverifiable) interpretation. As such I've left Starcevic in, as I don't suppose anyone would dispute this sentence now - and never mind whether "Starcevic was a fascist" or not, which isn't really relevant here.
• removed a few references which were broken links, and one reference to a 1939 document regarding an event in 2005. I haven't checked all the references in the section.

I haven't changed the order of the paragraphs; on balance I prefer the chronological approach for most of the material here, but I don't suppose it's the most contentious issue anyway.

Giorgio, sure, thanks for your feedback. I didn't intend to mock NN, but I see how it could have been perceived that way. In fact I genuinely did think he might be joking; I don't think imperfect English implies stupidity, but I very rarely have inexpert users of English arguing with me about what's correct (even in my line of work). :-)

Spylab, I hope you'll take this opportunity to go through the revised text in detail rather than continuing this pointless editwar with the others. Which is not to say that they were right or that you were wrong, I'm just looking for a constructive approach here...

SociableLiberal 15:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

...and by the time I'd finished writing this, GiorgioO reverts all my edits to the article wholesale as "vandalism" - as if that was all there was to say about it! I am honestly astonished. GiorgioO, I am waiting for your explanation here of why my edits were rejected. (But am happy to assume you were simply joking or mistaken about the vandalism, unless you really want to call it that as well.)SociableLiberal 15:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Please, read references before removing them. Please, read all references before passing any judgement about their validity, possible need for new references, and do not re-phrase the existing text if it is not needed. We have to respect efforts of other editors.--Giorgio Orsini 15:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The diacritica (and any other) references I removed (apart from the 1939 one) were links which, at least on my connection, appear to be dead. Is is possible that some of these pages are only accessible from certain places? Anyway I'd be grateful for references which I can actually verify with an internet connection. Meanwhile, how can a book dated 1939 be a source for a statement about something that happened in 2005? Surely this can only be WP:SYNTH.

I consider all of my rephrasings to be necessary for either correctness, style or NPOV; please comment in detail on your objections. If any of the "fact" templates were wrongly added feel free to explain why. Please accept my assurances that I am editing in good faith with the intention of improving this article, without any disrespect to anyone else. And please don't bite me. Thanks. SociableLiberal 15:24, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Giorgio, thanks for your support in preserving valuable information in this section. 'diacritica' link is replace by another one. As to The Nazi conception of law (Oxford pamphlets on world affairs) - this is a necessary (contextual) reference highlighting idea of the Nazi era law and practice.--NovaNova 15:29, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Reply to SociableLiberal

Yours: Neo-Nazis in Croatia base their ideology on the writings of Ante Starčević and Ante Pavelić

Previous: The roots of neo-Nazism in Croatia are in the ideology developed by Ante Starčević and his later follower Ante Pavelić

I reverted this because I do not see any improvement you claimed.

Yours: Starcevic's ideas were later advocated by Ante Pavelic and the Ustashi

Previous: It is interesting to note that Starcevic's ideas were later advocated by Ante Pavelic and the Ustashi

Here, my friend, you mutilated the quoted text which is illegal (=vandalism).

You put 7 even though that the information - you claimed that is not supported by references - is already heavily referenced. Just a sign that you did not read the references at all. When placing such a tag you must say (not to ask me why I do not like your s), for example, 'I cannot see this in any of the references given in order to support this sentence/paragraph'. This is definitely a bad faith edit no matter what shall be assumed according to the Misplaced Pages rules.

One example of your

Thompson, a popular Croatian singer, has sung Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara in his concerts. This is a song which glorifies the Ustaše and their genocide of the Serbs.

May I ask you - how it is possible that you do not see that Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara is a Misplaced Pages entry stating exactly what shall be 'fact-ed'???

--Giorgio Orsini 15:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Latest revert of the Croatia section

• As per two public warning here -to Spylab and here to SociableLiberal

- given both by Giorgio Orsini and, by the common sense, both users are warned that it is not possible to 'fix' the quoted text by removing of some of its parts!!!. The removed words are in bold

Original text: Genocide and Gross Human Rights Violations by Kurt Jonassohn, Karin Solveig Bjцrnson Transaction Publishers 1998, page 279
To further legitimize the claim that Croats constituted a distinct nation, entitled to their own state, Starcevic revived archaic usages and invented new words to artificially separate a Croatian literary language from the common Serbo-Croatian linguistic stock. It is interesting to note that Starcevic's ideas were later advocated by Ante Pavelic and the Ustashi

Changed text: Genocide and Gross Human Rights Violations by Kurt Jonassohn, Karin Solveig Bjцrnson Transaction Publishers 1998, page 279
To legitimize the claim that Croats constituted a distinct nation, entitled to their own state, Starcevic revived archaic usages and invented new words to artificially separate a Croatian literary language from the common Serbo-Croatian linguistic stock. Starcevic's ideas were later advocated by Ante Pavelic and the Ustashi

• This orignal editor's text was re-worded under pretext that reference must always come at the end of sentence. This 'rule' is invented by Spylab - which (s)he tries to sell under a Misplaced Pages rule. This attempt of selling a 'rule' is incivil and illegal. If reference is about the first part of sentence - it is meanongless to remove it to the end sentence - as Spylab does. Application of this 'rule' here only harms the sentence readability.

To many of their modern supporters, the Ustase are considered merely victims of the (historically questionable - as per

• Original text:

The resurgence of the Ustaљe movement in post-war Croatia is partly due to the financial support of Ustaљe members, who emigrated after the WWII, to the Croatian Democratic Union during the 1990s.

The 'fixed' text:

The resurgence of the Ustase movement in post-war Croatia is partly due to the financial support of Ustaљe members who emigrated to the Croatian Democratic Union during the 1990s.

It was not possible to remove the bold text due to the fact that the 'fixed' sentence claims that Ustase members who emigrated to the Croatian Democratic Union during the 1990s - which is utter nonsense and a proof that editor did not understand the originally written sentence.

The fact that the editor did not understand the original sentence should signal to you that the original sentence did not make sense.

I can only suppose that what was meant was, "The resurgence of the Ustase movement in post-war Croatia is partly due to significant financial support of the Croatian Democratic Union by Ustase emigrants."

Perhaps you should work with other editors to ensure this article is both easily readable and factually accurate, rather than fighting all attempts at improvement.

--Effoex 05:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Baseless insertion of the tag. In both cases the given references are confirming the statements tagged by . The fact is that the editor (Spylab) cannot read the references written in Croatian. If (s)he could - then (s)he would see that there was no

need for this tag.

In 1999, Zagreb's Square of the Victims of Fascism was renamed The Square of The Great Men of Croatia, provoking widespread criticism of Croatia's attitude toward the Holocaust. Many streets in Croatia were renamed after the prominent Ustaљe figure Mile Budak, which provoked outrage amongst the Serbian minority. Since 2002, there has been a reversal of this development, and streets with the name of Mile Budak or other persons connected with the Ustase movement are few or non-existent. A plaque in Slunj with the inscription "Croatian Knight Jure Francetic" was erected to commemorate Francetic, the notorious Ustaљe leader of the Black Legion. The plaque remained there for four years, until it was removed by the authorities.

Post-war support for Ustase is also visible in the form of graffiti. The most common is the serif letter U, representing Ustaљe (sometimes embellished with a cross, and/or the letters NDH). There have also been instances of more explicit hate speech, such as the phrase Srbe na vrbe! (meaning "hang Serbs on the willow trees!"). An Orthodox church was spray-painted with pro-Ustaљe graffiti in 2004.

• Giorgio Orsini inserted this reference into this seciton as a contextual reference directing a reader to much needed and sufficient knowledge of the Nazi conception of law. I explained why this reference is necessary here - at the end of this section

The Nazi conception of law (Oxford pamphlets on world affairs) by J. Walter Jones, Clarendon (1939)

• Insertion of the tag here is completely baseless - as it was explained at the end of this section

'Thompson, a popular Croatian singer, has sung "Jasenovac i Gradiљka Stara" in his concerts. That song glorifies the Ustaљe and their genocide of the Serbs.

• Original text:

Many of them were wearing Ustase uniforms, saluted the Ustaљe way, and shouted the Ustaљe salute "Za dom spremni" (For home(land) ready) - en-masse.

Changed text - the bold text contradicts the references - both English and Croatian: His May 17, 2007 concert in Zagreb was attended by 60000 people, many of them wearing Ustaљe uniforms. Some gave Ustase salutes, and shouted the Ustaљe slogan "Za dom spremni" (For home ready) en-masse.

Croatian: Osim toga, veliki broj sudionika nosio je ustaљke uniforme i simbole", stoji u Zuroffovu pismo. (from Jutarnji list)
English: The Los Angeles-based organisation expressed "outrage and disgust in the wake of a massive show of fascist salutes, symbols and uniforms at a rock concert ... (from the Sunday Times)

Footnotes

1. ^ Homeland Calling: exile patriotism and the Balkan wars by Paul Hockenos, Cornell University Press 2003 Page 28
   own state, Starcevic revived archaic usages and invented new words to artificially separate a Croatian literary language from the common Serbo-Croatian linguistic stock. It is interesting to note that Starcevic's ideas were later advocated by Ante Pavelic and the Ustashi
2. http://www.iwpr.net/?p=bcr&s=f&o=246286&apc_state=henibcr1999
3. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3605236.stm
4. http://www.ex-yupress.com/nacional/nacional7.html
5. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3605236.stm
6. http://see.oneworld.net/article/view/92811/1/
7. http://www.index.hr/clanak.aspx?id=279919
8. http://www.spc.org.yu/Vesti-2004/04/28-4-04-e01.html#usta

--NovaNova 00:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

LGBT Project

Hi! The {{LGBTProject}} banner was removed with the edit summary "this has nothing to do with Nazism". The contrary viewpoint is that the article is in the Category:Homophobia, and several of the sections refer to attacks on homosexuals. I'm re-adding the banner, but welcome comments on the subject. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 14:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

fascism reborn in Russia

I just saw wideo, where russian nazi killed two kid, one from Russia's Dagestan and other from Tadjikistan. That was so awfull:((((((((((((((((((((((((((( They cuted head of and played with it:(((( They are totaly mad. It looks like Russia is becoming ruSSia. Some russians say, that Russian Federation is Veimar Republic. In this article must be mentioned, that the strongest in numbers and the most active nazi are in ruSSia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 159.148.71.250 (talk) 10:39, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

Rammstein

Is Rammstein really a neo-nazi band? I don't think so.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.190.77.71 (talk) 13:29, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

The Bleiburg paragraph in the Croatia chapter

I will remove the paragraph dealing with the Bleiburg massacre from the chapter on Neo-Nazism in Croatia. This is the paragraph including references:

To many of their modern supporters, the Ustaše are considered victims of the historically disputed ], and the late president ] even proposed to rebury Ustaše members together with victims of the ], as a sign of national reconciliation.<ref>Homeland Calling: exile patriotism and the Balkan wars by Paul Hockenos, Cornell University Press 2003 Page 28 <br>"Bleiburg" became a charge symbol for the alleged 'Serbo-Communist' campaign to exterminate the Croat nation</ref> <ref>Power and Persuasion: Ideology and Rhetoric in Communist Yugoslavia, 1944-1953 by Carol S. Lilly Westview Press 2001 Page 109 <br>The first books about the alleged Bleibirg massacre appeared after 1990 - based only on memoirs</ref> <ref>Video, War and the Diasporic Imagination by Dona Kolar-Panov, Routledge 1997 Page 116 <br> The story of Bleiburg was to fill the newspapers and to get considerable media attention in Croatia, and some of the media campaign reached Australia, but most of the members of the audience were not sure about 'what really happened' mainly because the 'after war death camps' and their victims inhabitated the blurry space between myth and reality </ref> <ref>The Formation of Croatian National Identity: A Centuries-old Dream by Alex J. Bellamy, Manchester University Press 2003 Page 71 <blockquote> The crisis was resolved when Tudjman 'discovered' that among the bones already at Jasenovac were some returned from Bleiburg after the war, so no bodies neded to be exhumed and moved</blockquote></ref> <ref>http://www.ex-yupress.com/novi/novilist29.html</ref> <ref>http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/news/croatia.php</ref> Croatian Serbs felt insulted by that proposal.

When one reads this paragraph, two things are obvious:

(1) the handling of the Bleiburg massacre is certainly a sensitive issue, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Neo-Nazism;

(2) the comments included in the references promote the denial of the Bleiburg massacre, and are therefore very offensive for the relatives of the victims. I wonder how they got accepted in the first place.

Therefore, I'll delete the entire paragraph. If anyone wishes to return it, they should explain what relevance it has for Neo-Nazism. --Zmaj 14:18, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes - it does a lot with neo-nazism. Bleiburg is a place of public demonstration of the Ustashe sentiment. Even Austria has prompted to take measures against some Bleiburg 'pilgrims' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.83.230 (talk) 21:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Bleiburg is a mass grave of the victims of a massacre. If you don't feel any respect for the people buried there or their living relatives, I have nothing but contempt for you. Since you provided no concrete reason for keeping the paragraph, I'll delete it again. --Zmaj 07:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, Bleiburg is not a mass grave nor ever was. There is only six or seven Ustashe graves on the local cemetery. Also, there is not any documentation coming from the British Army archives, nor from the world media about the (non-existent) massacre. Not a single villager of the Bleiburg village saw anything like massacre. There are only tel-tales of some Ustashe's fans or relatives - which is already correctly spotted by historians.

Dead links

Is it me, or this link is dead? It's used as a reference, thus more important. Please check if I'm wrong. iNkubusse 18:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Stupid nazis

It should be noted that alot of neo nazis are dumb and don't know how to draw swastikas correctly and vandalise areas with buddha swastikas which isn't very insulting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.136.156 (talk) 00:28, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Serbia

The claim

Those incidents included anti-Semitic graffiti and posters, posters glorifying the Srebrenica massacre, physical harassment at an anti-fascist meeting at the University of Novi Sad, attacks on Albanians and Roma.

is not supported by the references listed here - therefore removed.

Sentences

There were several attacks on Roma by skinhead gangs.
In 2001, Belgrade had its first Gay Parade. A crowd of skinheads, clerics, soccer fans and ultranationalists attacked the participants, seriously injuring several of them, and succeeded in stopping the event.
While most of the public said that such incidents were "a threat to the democratic development and the European perspectives of Serbia", the Serbian Radical Party, a major player in Serbian politics, explained the event as "the expected reaction of Serbian patriots".

are out of this topic - therefore removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.249.72.66 (talk) 02:05, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

antisemitism

this shouldnt be a subtopic on antisemitism.neo nazis arent exclusively about hating jews so it should be removed asap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grantyboy14 (talk • contribs) 22:46, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The presence of the template means that the article is about a topic related to antisemitism, not that the article is exclusively about antisemitism. Its presence here is appropriate, and I've restored it. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 01:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Neo-nazi in Croatia

I am proud to be grandson of partisan war hero in Croatia. My grandpa was one of founders of resistance in our region, and he paid ultimate price for it. I was raised as true comunist's grandson. I was red from head to toe. But also, I noticed that I was not able to declare myself as Croatian, because, you know, all Croatians are Nazis. I was ashamed to say my true identity. But why? Afterall, Croatians were founders of partisan movement in Yugoslavia, and main part of it. I did not want to be ashamed for Croatian minority which supported nazi movement.

Than one day, I was attacked at my home, a war started, a war I was not ready for. Our attackers were guys who were telling me for years that it is bad to be Croatian, you have to be Yugoslav. And they were telling me that all Croatians are Ustashe. And that day when they attacked us I took that letter U and started to fight against them.

And, I spent few years in war against them. I am still thinking as I was thinking twenty years ago. I am still red, and I am still antifascist. And I am still proud to be Croatian. And for me U was letter which killed my grandpa, but now is letter of determined resistance against invaders. And, for me and lots of my friends letter U have two separate meanings:

- old and bad one

- new meaning of reborn of Croatian national identity

Unfortunatelly, for Serbs both meaning are bad, because, even if They were armed and we were not, we won.And today, they are again trying to say that I am nazi if I am Croatian. And I am not. --Billy the lid 10:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Neo-fascism in Italy -nothing! Are you kidding??

I am beeing shocked there was nothing here written about far-right politicians in Italy. About the country that invented fascism was not written neither one singles word. And there was entire paragraph, quiet huge about Croatia.

I think that for the accuracy of this article is necessary to insert data about these things:

All of these products are illegal in Croatia!!

In Mussolini's birthplace , is beeing sold to turists in large quantities, Duce's wine, statues ,and pictures. As well as things with the image of his very well known ally with moustaches ; and not mentioning just a bunch of "hakenkreutz"s. And all these thing still today are beeing unpunished . We all know for that place in the center of EU, Zuroff knows as well,but he won't dare hit Italians .And why would he? it's very well known that evene European commision , in case of neighbours from two side Adriatic coast , is able to see with only one eye.

--Anto 19:54, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Neo-Nazism is an ideology, not just a movement

The following references call Neo-Nazism an ideology.

1. "Neo-Nazism is the name for a modern offshoot of Nazism. It is a radically right-wing ideology..."
2. "Neo-Nazism: An ideology which draws upon the legacy of the Nazi Third Reich..."
3. "Where parents and teachers have fallen short of educating German children about the horrors of their past, as well as the dangers that come with allowing neo-Nazism to continue, the promoters of neo-Nazi ideology and organizations have been able to make inroads."
4. "...the ideology of neo-Nazism is secondary to the cult of the music itself." I removed one reference that did not call neo-Nazism an ideology, but those four references clearly refer to neo-Nazism as an ideology.Spylab 22:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

More references that describe neo-Nazism as an ideology:

1. "None of the suspects admitted of embracing the neo-Nazi ideology"
2. "...their movement offered a new approach to the neo-Nazi ideology"
3. "They are dedicated to the neo-Nazi ideology..."
4. "The ADL report suggests that the neo-Nazi ideology combined with the gang lifestyle provides..."
5. The neo-Nazi ideology is made very attractive to the young...
6. At the beginning, racism and neo-Nazi ideology were (generally speaking) unknown within skinhead subculture.
7. What is a fact is that in the Czech society there is quite a significant minority of youngsters who like the neo-Nazi ideology...
8. "They are dedicated to the neo-Nazi ideology and attracted to violence."
9. At the same time, the denial of the Holocaust is a central component of the neo-Nazi ideology.
10. It is appropriately symbolic, given the neo-Nazi ideology of many of those involved..."
11. ...the law enforcement authorities recognized the neo-Nazi ideology behind these crimes...
12. "...to pay homage to the memory of millions of Holocaust victims and join forces in combating the neo Nazi ideology"
13. documented at least 8 acts of vandalism motivated by the neo-Nazi ideology...
14. ..."denial stirrings are closely connected with the neo-Nazi ideology and the rise of the radical right in politics
15. A common characteristic of "Blood and Honour" and Hammerskins is the neo-Nazi ideology..."

Surely all of these references cannot be incorrect in their descriptions of neo-Nazism as an ideology. Where are the references demonstrating that neo-Nazism is not an ideology?Spylab 03:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they call it an ideology. You'll have to get some actual article that calls it a unique ideology, and defines the difference between the original Nazism and if it is enough differences so as to warrant a new ideology. Everyone knows that Neo-Nazis follow an ideology. That ideology is Nazism. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:18 08 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

All 19 references clearly call neo-Nazism an ideology, period. Therefore they back up what I wrote in the opening sentence of this article. You are violating the guidelines of Misplaced Pages by dismissing 19 references out of hand and pushing your personal opinions into the article with not a single reference.Spylab 15:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The big problem here is, your references don't prove what you say. You don't seem to understand that however, but that is not my problem. Your own sources actually corroborate what I've been saying all along. It's actually quite amazing that you don't seem to understand this. The very first source you cite says it's a modern offshoot of Nazism. It can't get any more obvious: Neo-Nazism has Nazism as its ideology. Unbelievable. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 18:09 08 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

You can put whatever spin on it you want, but every single one of those 19 references call neo-Nazism an ideology. You are violating the very essence of what Misplaced Pages is about; presenting facts backed up by reliable references.Spylab 18:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

So tell me then, Mr. expert, what ideology is Neo-Nazism? How does it differ from the original Nazism? Can you get me scholarly sources explaining the ideology of Neo-Nazism with serious analysis and reflections of the main differences between Nazism and Neo-Nazism? YES, NEO-NAZISM IS AN IDEOLOGY, IT IS BASICALLY A CARBON COPY OF THE ORIGINAL NAZISM. Get academic sources presenting any notable differences and because of that define Neo-Nazism as a different ideology, or knock this off. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 23:38 08 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

• So you finally admit what I, and those references have been stating all along:YES, NEO-NAZISM IS AN IDEOLOGY. Case closed.Spylab 23:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Unbelievable. He still doesn't get it. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 01:43 09 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
• Same to you. Misplaced Pages policy is on my side. 19 references vs. zero to the contrary.Spylab 16:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages policy is not a law. It's a policy, meant to help Wikipedians make editing flow better. I think you should pay attention to what these two editors have told you. You know it makes sense. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 18:41 09 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree with Spylab here. What is the problem with calling it an ideology opposed to a movement? A movement means something that "moves" away from or in a new direction. An ideology is a set of doctrine and/or beliefs. Nazism, at the time was a movement, because it "moved" from one ideology/doctrine to another. Neo-Nazism is not really a movement, per se in that sense, because it isn't "moving" away from or to anything different, but actually revising the same doctrines and ideologies of Nazism. I don't get the conflict here. ~Jeeny 04:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Well I think that Elias has a point which is primarily that Neo-Nazism is a movement that embraces Nazi ideology. Thus, Nazism is the ideology and Neo-Nazism contributes nothing new. What Spylab needs to prove then, is that the Neo-Nazism and Nazism are different, and how they are different in terms of ideology - not simply giving references that call it an ideology. This would also make for an important section in the article as well. Really, one shouldn't be calling it an ideology in the lead if the article doesn't expand upon that point. --Strothra 05:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
        • I disagree. I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. Nazism was the movement, while Neo-Nazism is an ideology of that movement. ~Jeeny 05:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
          • It all began with Spylab changing ideology to Neo-Nazism in the National Socialist Front article. I tried to explain to him, that the ideology of National Socialist Front is Nazism, pure and simple. He didn't get it, despite explanations. Neo-Nazism is not in any way an ideology in itself. It is a world wide political movement consisting of different parties - some new and some a few decades old - all of these parties with one common ideology: National Socialism. To call Neo-Nazism an ideology, is not only inaccurate, but you only prove your own ignorance and how little you know about politics. Spylab's references, aren't really academic in nature and they don't go into details about this so called 'Neo-Nazism ideology' that they keep on making allusions to. Needless to say, Spylab is taking it all out of context. In any case, his references are irrelevant. Virtually all Neo-Nazi groups have, themselves, defined their ideology as National Socialism. They don't define it as Neo-Nazism or anything else. And that is what counts: their own perspective on their own ideology, not what the mainstream media reports on their ideology (the mainstream media isn't exactly an academic source when it comes to this kind of topic). Primary sources are important here. What must be understood here is that Neo-Nazis are actually trying to emulate the ideology of Nazi Germany as close as possible. They are not trying to create a new ideology. And they don't view themselves as Neo-Nazis. They see themselves as National Socialists. If you don't understand what I'm saying right now, perhaps you shouldn't edit these kind of articles. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 07:53 10 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
            • I'd rather be ignorant than stupid. You say it's a movement, and in the same sentence you say it's an ideology. What the heck are you talking about, and what exactly is the point you are trying to make? It would help if you'd stop talking in circles. You even said it was an ideology here! <Judge Judy voice> If it doesn't make sense, it's a bunch of gobbly-gook.</Judge Judy voice>~Jeeny 08:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
              • It's an "ideology" inasmuch as it's trying to revive a dormant ideology. That's all. If that can be called an ideology, is a good question. In any case, Neo-Nazis follow an ideology: Nazism. Yes, the same Nazism as the one practised in Nazi Germany. They read the same Mein Kampf, they have the same belief that a Führer should be their leader, they believe in abolishing Democracy, anti-Capitalism, anti-Communism, Social Darwinism, Scientific racism, anti-Semitism, etcetera. It's a political movement bundled together with an ideology: Nazism. I am being very clear right now. This is not difficult to understand. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 09:53 10 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
                • You even said it was an ideology here! — Unbelievable. Do you not understand that I was refering to "its" as in "National Socialist Front", a Neo-Nazi party in Sweden? I mean, do you Wikipedians understand anything at all? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 09:58 10 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
                  • Like I said, yes I understand. But, do not think you do. Sheesh damn, unbelievable is right. You just don't get it. There is no "Führer", he's dead. So it's a frikken ideology on a movement. Open your damn mind. ~Jeeny 09:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
                    • "Führer" means leader. They believe in having and following one leader. Yes, Hitler is dead. He was going to be replaced by another "Führer" sooner or later anyway. So it's a frikken ideology on a movement — No, it's a movement with an ideology. And it's not exactly a homogeneous movement either, we're talking about many different Neo-Nazi groups, some are rivals, some hate each other, some cooperate, some have different opinions about what should be implemented (e.g. religious freedom; some Neo-Nazis are more tolerant of Christianity while other Neo-Nazis consider it a Jewish religion that must be outlawed), and so on. To call Neo-Nazism an ideology, is pushing it. Neo-Nazism is just a bunch of political parties not in power, struggling to gain members and activists. Neo-Nazi groups are not well-defined enough and consistent with each other to call Neo-Nazism an ideology. But they all follow National Socialism as their main ideology, with different emphasis on what aspects of Nazi Germany's politics should be implemented. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 10:21 10 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
                      • I know what Führer means. My gawd, you just said there are many different fractions, and I KNOW that very well. There is no Führer then, therefore it is NOT a movement, but many ideologies of a movement. Check your dictionary for the words "ideology" and "movement". <bangs head on keyboard> ~Jeeny 09:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
                        • Let's take a fair number here: 100. Let's say there are in total, 100 different Neo-Nazi groups throughout the world. There's probably even more than that, but for the sake of argument, we'll say 100 is enough here. They all more or less have some minor disagreements on how to run things. They're all different factions. So, that would mean they have different "ideologies", right? How can you call Neo-Nazism an ideology (as in singular) if they're all different in some way or the other and independent from each other? They all have some form of Nazism as their ideology, and it's one movement that exists throughout the world. How long are we going to discuss this? Am I not making myself clear? By the way, are you 14 years old or something? What's up with that lame "gawd" typo? ;) — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 10:33 10 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
                          • Please, both of you, keep WP:CIVIL in mind. Thanks. --Strothra 13:35, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Here's my assessment of the situation

1. When I pointed out at the National Socialist Front article that the neo-Nazism article states that neo-Nazism is an ideology (not just a political movement), EliasAlucard deleted the word ideology from the lead sentence of the neo-Nazism article (which had been in the sentence for a long time). He had nothing to justify his blanking of this word except his own personal opinion (and that still remains the case). I searched out and posted 19 references proving that neo-Nazism is considered an ideology, and those valid and reliable references were dismissed out of hand.
2. Someone said that the refererences weren't academic. If I recall correctly some of them, are, in fact, academic, and others are articles by journalists or reports by groups of experts. The references do meet Misplaced Pages's standards for reliability, especially since there are 19 that verify that neo-Nazism is an ideology, instead of just one or two. I could understand the opposition if the references were just a couple of blogs or amateur websites, but that is not the case.
3. Someone claimed that the references were "out of context." That is not true. All of the references explicitly refer to neo-Nazism as an ideology. There is nothing out of context; I highlighted one sentence or sentence fragment from each article to make things easier for readers to find the relevant information, and to not clutter up the page with long sections of text. Anyone can click on those links to verify that neo-Nazism is considered an ideology.
4. Questioning me about the specific platform of neo-Nazism is an attempt to divert the issue. The issue here is that neo-Nazism is an ideology, not what that ideology is. The 19 references I provided verify that neo-Nazism is an ideology. The details of that ideology are another matter.
5. Finally, administrators have continued to ignore the personal attacks, all-cap writing (yelling) and insulting language that EliasAlucard has used against me in edit notes and in talk pages. This is unacceptable, and disrupts the civil atmosphere that Misplaced Pages attempts to foster. My edits and comments have been based on facts and content, not personal digs at other editors.Spylab 22:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

This is what you have failed to understand for a while now: Neo-Nazism is an ideology <--- You got that much right. But what is the ideology of Neo-Nazism? Answer: Nazism, as indicated by the name. Therefore, National Socialist Front should have Nazism as its ideology in the infobox, not Neo-Nazism. The only thing Neo-Nazism about National Socialist Front is their goal to revive Nazism. Not one of your sources, expand on what ideology Neo-Nazism is. This is a must, if you're going to include it in the article and label Neo-Nazism as an ideology in its own right. Only two of your sources, are academic and call Neo-Nazism an ideology:

1. "...their movement offered a new approach to the neo-Nazi ideology"
2. It is appropriately symbolic, given the neo-Nazi ideology of many of those involved..."

Neither of them explain what ideology Neo-Nazism is. And you're simply taking these quotes out of context. You can't make Neo-Nazism a full-fledged ideology in its own right, by these quotes. Just like Smerdyakoff told you here, you should make distinction between colloquial use of the ideology word and the scholar i.e. academic one; your references are not enough academic — This is true. Most of your sources aren't good enough for the purpose you are trying to use them in the article. When I pointed out at the National Socialist Front article that the neo-Nazism article states that neo-Nazism is an ideology (not just a political movement), EliasAlucard deleted the word ideology from the lead sentence of the neo-Nazism article (which had been in the sentence for a long time). He had nothing to justify his blanking of this word except his own personal opinion (and that still remains the case). — This is true. For your information, you can't use Misplaced Pages as a reliable source to cite in other Misplaced Pages articles. So, you should thank me for doing that. Second of all, my opinion, and my arguments, are well founded, and you haven't met the demands I have for you to label Neo-Nazism as a distinct ideology from the original Nazism. I stand by my claim that Neo-Nazism is a political movement, following the ideology of Nazism and trying to revive Nazism into the political sphere (where it is currently outlawed in many places). You can be sloppy and say, Neo-Nazism is an ideology, but if you're going to expand on it into intricate details, you have to understand that Neo-Nazism is merely a movement trying to revive an ideology, and that ideology is Nazism. By the way Spylab, you should be given a warning for harassing me with your vandalism accusations. This is not in any way vandalism. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:26 12 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

• Again you are diverting the issue away from the heart of the matter and not addressing the points directly. Also, those sources do meet Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable sources. See Chip Berlet's section below explaining that neo-Nazism is considered an ideology, even by another well-respected encyclopedia. Berlet has spent many years studying Neo-Nazism in depth, and he has the evidence to back him up. You have nothing but your uncited personal opinion, which is not backed up by anything whatsoever.Spylab 17:16, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Do you at all, understand "logic"? How about you actually try to understand what I'm saying? You cannot consider 150 different Neo-Nazi groups, who have very little in common except for white nationalism, an ideology. — Superman (talk · contribs) 18:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Page protected

I have protected this page for 1 week, or until disputes over sourcing have been resolved, to stop tendentious edit warring. Please use the talk page to discuss your proposed changes. --Haemo 19:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ideologies and movements

Sociologists discuss ideologies, frames, cultures, and narratives, etc. used by social movements. All social movements are built around an ideology, and ideological variations among different sectors and wings of a social movement are common.

Neonazism is a series of social and political movements built around various interpretations of a core ideology. To suggest otherwise is original research and tendentious editing. This discussion has been a tremendous waste of time, as anyone with a library card could explain.

"Organized White Supremacist groups in the United States evolved from their historic base of various predecessor Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazi organizations (Schmaltz 1999; Trelease 1995; Chalmers 1965). Over time, they spread into a wide range of competing forms and ideologies."

--Chip Berlet and Stanislav Vysotsky. (2006, Summer). Overview of U.S. white supremacist groups. Journal of Political and Military Sociology 34(1), 11-48. (Special Issue on the white power movement in the United States, B. A. Dobratz and L. K. Walsner).

See also discussion of neonazi ideology and movement oprganizing in Chip Berlet. (2004) Christian Identity: The Apocalyptic Style, Political Religion, Palingenesis and Neo-Fascism. Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement.

Why does Misplaced Pages allow marginal, aggressive, and bullying edits that defy mainstream scholarship, and then lock the page as if both sides of this dispute have facts on their side? The outcome rewards relentless fanatics.--Cberlet 22:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I could only aplaud and second to Cberlet and explain myself this way: Just reading the references oferred by Spylab, I see that

Spylab does not make diference between the colloqiual use of the ideology notion and the scholar one. All his (or her) references are using this notion colloquially i.e. ideology as an overall behavior (not just as a specific and distinct tenet) of a vast number of very heterogenneous groups around the Globe.

Neo-Nazism is a continuation of traditional Nazism - so nothing new. The adjective 'New' is here to just point out the time distance between the 1930-40 Nazis and their todays followers. That is exactly what Spylab reference is saying

http://www.holocaust-education.dk/eftertid/nynazisme.asp

Neo-Nazism necessarily has to be viewed in its historical context, as a continuation of traditional Nazism. Consequently, one of the neo-Nazis’ most important objectives is the re-establishment of Nazism as an acceptable political ideology. This, for instance, is done by promoting the lie that the Holocaust never took place (Holocaust denial). The neo-Nazis have also taken over many of the symbols that were used by the Nazis: the swastika, the Nazi greeting (the out-stretched right arm), pictures of Hitler, etc.

Moreover, when saying that the references are not enough academic - it primarily means that they are - newspaper articles or do not observe the 'bones and mussles' of the Neo-Nazism as an original, distinct from the Nazism ideology.--Smerdyakoff 23:29, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

This is surreal. I am defending Spylab. Neonazism can be seen as both an ideology and a movement.--Cberlet 23:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Defending??? Didn't you say Neonazism is a series of social and political movements built around various interpretations of a core ideology. To suggest otherwise is original research and tendentious editing. ??? I regret that I've commented your writtings above - at all.--Smerdyakoff 23:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Neo-Nazism is not just a "continuation of traditional Nazism." The administrator action on this page is outlandish. Idiosyncratic marginal original research has trumped serious scholarship. This matter needs to be re-opened.

This is the opening of the entry on "Neo-Nazism" in the new edition of the Encyclopedia Judaica.

"NEO-NAZISM, a general term for the related fascist, nationalist, white supremacist, antisemitic beliefs and political tendencies of the numerous groups that emerged after World War II seeking to restore the Nazi order or to establish a new order based on doctrines similar to those underlying Nazi Germany. Some of these groups closely adhered to the ideas propounded in Hitler's Mein Kampf; others espoused related beliefs deriving from older Catholic, nationalist, or other local traditions."

--Hearst, Ernest, Chip Berlet, and Jack Porter. "Neo-Nazism." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Eds. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. Vol. 15. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 74-82. 22 vols. Thomson Gale.--Cberlet 23:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The current lead is not accurate and is based on outdated and superficial research:

"Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) is a post-World War II political movement seeking to revive the ideology of National Socialism."

Not all contemporary neonazi movements are "seeking to revive the ideology of National Socialism."--Cberlet 00:20, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Neonazism is a series of social and political movements built around various interpretations of a core ideology. — Yes, that is what I've been saying all the time. Thanks for pointing it out so eloquently. And while we're at it, the "core ideology" of Neo-Nazism is Nazism. To suggest otherwise is original research and tendentious editing. This discussion has been a tremendous waste of time, as anyone with a library card could explain. — I completely agree. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:30 12 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

The published text speaks for itself: "or to establish a new order based on doctrines similar to those underlying Nazi Germany. Some of these groups closely adhered to the ideas propounded in Hitler's Mein Kampf; others espoused related beliefs deriving from older Catholic, nationalist, or other local traditions." Some neonazi groups reject "national socialism," for example. Some condemn Hitler for betraying the Strasser brothers. Some are based on Corneliu Zelea Codreanu. Some praise Hitler but their core ideology is based on a syncretic religious formulation. This matter is far more complicated than is being suggested. See:

Chip Berlet and Stanislav Vysotsky. (2006, Summer). Overview of U.S. white supremacist groups. Journal of Political and Military Sociology 34(1), 11-48. (Special Issue on the white power movement in the United States, B. A. Dobratz and L. K. Walsner).

Chip Berlet. 2005. "Protocols to the Left, Protocols to the Right: Conspiracism in American Political Discourse at the Turn of the Second Millennium." Paper presented at the conference: Reconsidering "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion": 100 Years After the Forgery, The Elie Wiesel Center for Judaic Studies, Boston University, October 30-31, 2005.

_______. (2004) Christian Identity: The Apocalyptic Style, Political Religion, Palingenesis and Neo-Fascism. Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement.

_______. 2004. “Hate, Oppression, Repression, and the Apocalyptic Style: Facing Complex Questions and Challenges.” Journal of Hate Studies, Vol. 3, No. 1, Institute for Action against Hate, Gonzaga University Law School.

_______. 2005. “When Alienation Turns Right: Populist Conspiracism, the Apocalyptic Style, and Neofascist Movements.” In Lauren Langman & Devorah Kalekin Fishman, (eds.), Trauma, Promise, and the Millennium: The Evolution of Alienation. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.

_______. 2004. “Mapping the Political Right: Gender and Race Oppression in Right-Wing Movements.” In Abby Ferber, ed, Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Organized Racism. New York: Routledge.

_______. 2003. “Terminology: Use with Caution.” Fascism. Vol. 5, Critical Concepts in Political Science, Roger Griffin and Matthew Feldman, eds. New York, NY: Routledge.

--Cberlet 17:42, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

You have just explained how incoherent Neo-Nazis groups are with each other. How can you call it an ideology, based on what you've just presented? An ideology is a cohesive, well-defined, political doctrine. These Neo-Nazi groups, as much as they differ from each other, cannot be considered an ideology. If you still consider Neo-Nazism an ideology, your opinions should be disregarded. — Superman (talk · contribs) 18:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• You have a presented a distorted definition of the word ideology, and have offered nothing to back up your personal opinions about this topic. In contrast, I, and Berlet (who is a renowned expert on neo-Nazism) have backed up the facts with many references. Therefore, your uncited opinions should be disregarded.Spylab 18:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • No, you think my definition is distorted. That Misplaced Pages article states clearly: An ideology can be thought of as a comprehensive vision. Obviously, that is not the case with these Neo-Nazi groups since they all have different visions and differ from each other in many ways. Therefore, Neo-Nazism cannot be called an ideology, no matter how much you want it to be an ideology. — Superman (talk · contribs) 18:52, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• You clearly do not understand what an ideology is. The definition does not require that every single group that supports an ideology has the same exact views, platform and strategies. Also, neo-Nazi groups and individuals do have a "comprehensive vision", otherwise they would have nothing in common and wouldn't have a name. That brings up another flaw in the current lead sentence. A person does not have to be part of an organized movement to be a neo-Nazi; that individual just has to have neo-Nazi views (i.e. ideology).Spylab 19:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
  • If there's anyone here who doesn't understand what an ideology is, then it's you. The ideology of Neo-Nazi groups, is plain Nazism, with some minor tweaks. It's unbelievable that I've been saying this without you understanding it. Neo-Nazism in itself is not an ideology, it's a political movement that is struggling to revive an ideology that was created in the early 20th century. Why do you not understand what I'm saying? — Superman (talk · contribs) 20:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• You are incorrect, and you have nothing to back up your position other than your own personal opinion. There are many reliable references (including another encyclopedia) proving that neo-Nazism is considered an ideology. You have provided zero references to show otherwise. Misplaced Pages is about presenting accurate facts backed up by reliable references Your opinions are original research and an example of POV-pushing, which go against the very core of what Wikiedia is all about.Spylab 21:22, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• • No, I'm not at all incorrect. I just haven't cared about presenting any sources because I know what I'm talking about (unlike yourself who knows nothing about this and should never ever again edit Nazi-related articles on Misplaced Pages because you don't know anything about the subject). Here are some sources:
    • In contrast to today, in which rigid authoritarianism and neo-Nazism are characteristic of marginal groups, open or latent leanings toward Nazi ideology in the 1940s and 1950s...
    • Neo-na·zis A member of a fringe group inspired by Adolf Hitler's Nazis.
    • III. Neonazism 1. Objective Ideology the National socialism The Neonazism fastens to the ideology of the National socialism, therefore to a totalitarian, nationalistic and racist leader state with an unity party, whose core element is the following racist and antisemitic reason idea from that - " 25Punkte - program " - the NSDAP The Neonazism is not ideologically homogeneous however.
    • Right-wing extremism can be equated neither with National Socialism nor with neo-Fascism or neo-Nazism. Neo-Nazism, a legal term, is understood as the attempt to propagate, in direct defiance of the law (Verbotsgesetz), Nazi ideology or measures such as the denial, playing- down, approval or justification of Nazi mass murder, especially the Holocaust.
    • Nazism is an abbreviation of National Socialism and it is often used instead of the whole word (see: National Socialism). It has become just as common to write and say Nazism when referring to National Socialism. Only opponents of the ideology, not the National Socialists themselves, use the term. The term neo-Nazism has subsequently lived on not just as a term for parliamentary extreme parties. It is even a term for the fledgling, National Socialist-influenced movement, which appeared in the British skinhead environment during the 1970s. It is doubtful as to whether it is meaningful to use the concept of neo-Nazism, since it has thereby come to be used mainly for all forms of variants of the old National Socialism.
    • The term Neo-Nazism refers to any social, political and/or (quasi) religious movement seeking to revive Nazism or Fascism. Neo-Nazi groups are racist hate groups that pattern themselves after Hitler’s philosophies. Examples include: Aryan Nations, National Alliance
  • How long do you intend to keep this pointless debate alive? — Superman (talk · contribs) 22:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• None of those quotes disprove that many reliable sources consider neo-Nazism an ideology. Your quotes just show that neo-Nazism is also considered a movement. As all of our combined references prove, Neo-Nazism is both an ideology and a movement. You have nothing to back up your factually-incorrect opinion that neo-Nazism is not an ideology. Your uncited personal opinion does not trump the many reliable references that show that neo-Nazism is an ideology.Spylab 23:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it is clear that Spylab and I have provided serious scholar citations, while EliasAlucard cites trival and outdated sources, applies WP:OR and WP:SYNTH and engages in personal attacks on Spylab. Where is the admin intervention now?--Cberlet 14:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

But your sources are wrong. This is what you refuse to accept, because of your personal POV. And what do you mean by "outdated sources"? All of those sources are fairly new. It's not like they're from 1950s or so. How about you acknowledge that you are wrong, for once? The sources presented by Spylab, we can find thousands of such sources all saying Neo-Nazism is an ideology. It doesn't make it any more true. Ask any actual expert in this kind of field who knows the topic and he'll explain to you what Neo-Nazism is. And how do you make it into WP:OR and WP:SYNTH? How do you make such conclusions? Those sources are not in any way trivial, they're definitely reliable and some of them are even academic. And don't call after admins now, we're having a discussion here. — Superman (talk · contribs) 23:54, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

• Neo-nazism, drawing heavily both on the ideology and aesthetics of the NSDAP, emerged in many parts of Europe and elsewhere in the economic crises of the 1970s, and has continued to influence a number of small political groups. — Superman (talk · contribs) 00:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Summary of the discussion

I'd like to make suggestion to the administrator: unprotect the page, and block these two 'experts' Cberlet and Spylab.

Spylab spent most of his time accusing others for vandalism, POV-pushing, ignorance etc. At the same time not being able to notice that the references he selected, probably using a search engine, do not support what he stubbornly claims: Neo_Nazism is an ideology.

As to Cberlet - he did not get it that the self-parise is not a praise at all: "Idiosyncratic marginal original research has trumped serious scholarship."!?!? Writing some minor articles then referencing them as the last word about this topic - really sounds sad. Moreover, in this discussion - firstly it was not clear what he, Cberlet, was fighting for. When it was clear, (Neo-Nazism as an ideology), he offered quotes bluntly denying what he tried to prove. All this shall be sold to us (by Cberlet) as a "serious scholarship"??? --Smerdyakoff 00:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You said it man. — Ryu vs Ken (talk · contribs) 09:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Contemporary scholarly sources

Let's make lists of the major scholarly work on the subject over the past 40 years and divide it into those who state that Nazism/Neonazism is only an ideology, and those that look at Nazism/Neonazism as both an ideology and a movement. And lets subdivide the lists into interwar Nazism and Fascism and those primarily looking at forms of neonazism. Then let's summarize what they say about ideology and movement mobilization as core features of neonazism. --Cberlet 15:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Look, you can list all the literature in the world, when it all comes down to it, Neo-Nazi groups do not call their ideology "Neo-Nazism", they call it National Socialism. That is what counts, all right? You can't define what their ideology is for them. — Ryu vs Ken (talk · contribs) 16:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Your claim is false. A number of Neonazi groups do not seek to establish a form of national socialism. Several want to establish syncretic religions. Some want neopagan anarchy. In any case, your claims violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Please provide cites to scholars that claim that all neonazi groups want to restablish the national socialist ideology of the German Nazi Party with minor variations, and are not considered contemporary social and/or political movements with substantial variqtions on the original Nazi ideology. If you cannot do this, then your claims are marginal and violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. It is that simple. No number of personal attacks and sneering comments will change that fact. There is space provided below for your cites. Enjoy. Have a nice day. --Cberlet 16:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are Neo-Nazis in favour of the old Pagan religions (which they consider to be their "Aryan nature"). This is very much in line with Hitler's own ideology. After all, Hitler said: The old beliefs will be brought back to honor again. The whole secret knowledge of nature, of the divine, the demonic. We will wash off the Christian veneer and bring out a religion peculiar to our race. Apart from that, he very much favoured the culture of the pre-Christian Germanic peoples. However, if there are "Neo-Nazis" who want anarchy, they are simply not Neo-Nazis. And my claim is not at all false. You should stop trying to make yourself an expert, you're nothing of a kind. — Ryu vs Ken (talk · contribs) 17:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• That's not the way things work, EliasAlucard (aka Ryu vs Ken and Superman - what's with all the name changes?), especially not on Misplaced Pages. Lots of people and groups self-identify as one word, but are labelled by reputable sources as a different term. Misplaced Pages is based on the content of reputable sources, not necessarily on how people and groups describe themselves. We have provided a multitude of reliable references showing that neo-Nazism is considered an ideology. You have provided nothing except your own biased personal opinion to show that it is not an ideology. Therefore, according to Misplaced Pages guidelines, this article should include that well-supported information. Also, not all groups considered to neo-Nazi self-describe themselves as "National Socialist" anyway. Many use buzzwords like "nationalist", "white nationalist", "national revolutionary" or a variety of other terms. Perhaps you should read some of Chip Berlets extensive body of work into neo-Nazism to learn more about the topic. (Note: that link is to a Misplaced Pages article about Berlet, not his account page) Spylab 17:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The name changes is just for fun. I'm playing around a bit with the signature feature. Lots of people and groups self-identify as one word, but are labelled by reputable sources as a different term. — I hope you do understand that these 'reputable sources' can be wrong, do you? You have provided nothing except your own biased personal opinion to show that it is not an ideology. — What do you mean, biased personal opinion? I am completely neutral and I happen to understand that Neo-Nazism takes after Nazism. How is that biased? And I have provided several reliable and some even academic sources backing up my claim, do not deny that. Also, not all groups considered to neo-Nazi self-describe themselves as "National Socialist" anyway. Many use buzzwords like "nationalist", "white nationalist", "national revolutionary" or a variety of other terms. — White nationalists are not necessarily Neo-Nazis. It's true that Neo-Nazi as a word is being abused and labelled on many people who express the slightest racist sentiment, but that doesn't make it so. Just like Fascism is an abused word (e.g. Islamofascist, though Islam does share some similar elements as dictatorship with Fascism, it is radically different), so is Neo-Nazism an abused word. White nationalists usually tend to support Ethnopluralism whereas Neo-Nazis reject it. Perhaps you should read some of Chip Berlets extensive body of work into neo-Nazism to learn more about the topic. — Thanks, but I'll have to decline; I'm not interested in anything he writes. — Ryu vs Ken (talk · contribs) 17:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Siging your posts with different names is a form of sock puppetry, because it is not clear to all readers that all the different people are actually one person. Reliable sources are the whole basis of Misplaced Pages, not personal opinions and self-identification. You have not provided reliable sources to back up your factually inaccurate opinions, thus violating the most basic principle of Misplaced Pages. Thanks, but I am familiar with the topic of white nationalism, and I understand that not all white nationalists are neo-Nazis. However, the fact is that some neo-Nazis do call themselves white nationalists or other buzzwords. It is rare that any person or group self-identitifies as neo-Nazi, but it does not change the fact that they are considered neo-Nazis by many reliable sources.Spylab 18:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Playing around with my sig is in no way sock puppetry. You should stop accusing me of such things just to get a cheap point. Everyone can see that I signed it by just clicking on the link. Anyway, I have provided several reliable sources and some even scholarly sources. The fact that you are completely ignoring them, is a sign of NPOV issues. But don't you come here and say I haven't provided any sources. And we can't base Misplaced Pages content on what people "consider". Yes, they are considered Neo-Nazis. The ideology they follow is not Neo-Nazism however, it is Nazism. What is so difficult to understand about this? However, the fact is that some neo-Nazis do call themselves white nationalists or other buzzwords. — All Neo-Nazis are white nationalists. White nationalism however does not necessarily have to have Nazism as its core ideology. There are for instance, the National Democrats in Sweden. They are certainly white nationalist but not Neo-Nazis. Neo-Nazi groups have ideological differences; they do not all agree on everything. You can't define Neo-Nazism as an ideology since it's a movement inspired by an ideology, not a coherent ideology in itself. Just because there are some websites who call Neo-Nazism an ideology, doesn't make it an unquestionable fact. If you understand politics and ideologies, you also understand that Neo-Nazism is a continuation of an ideology, not a new ideology. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 18:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I, too, am bothered by the continuous shifting of identities and am asking you to please stop it, EliasAlucard. In addition, unless you can provide below some cites to back up your claims, you are simply wasting our time here. The point of the discussion page is to edit text. To do so you must first cite reputable sources. We await your participation in this process.---- Cberlet (talk) 18:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• In contrast to today, in which rigid authoritarianism and neo-Nazism are characteristic of marginal groups, open or latent leanings toward Nazi ideology in the 1940s and 1950s... This one passes WP:RS, ISBN 1560002700

This is a footnote about demographics of youth concerning authoritarianism in post-war Germany. It does not support your contention.---- Cberlet (talk) 21:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, but it supports my contention and you know it. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:45, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Neo-nazism, drawing heavily both on the ideology and aesthetics of the NSDAP, emerged in many parts of Europe and elsewhere in the economic crises of the 1970s, and has continued to influence a number of small political groups. This one also passes WP:RS, ISBN 0415185971

This is a tiny reference in a history of Europe up to the late 1970s. It does not deal with the growth of diverse forms of neonazi ideologies and movements beginning in the late 1980s. It does not support your contention.---- Cberlet (talk) 21:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, but it supports my contention and you know it. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Neo-na·zis A member of a fringe group inspired by Adolf Hitler's Nazis.

This is a tiny reference in a dictionary. It does not deal with the growth of diverse forms of neonazi ideologies and movements beginning in the late 1980s. It does not support your contention.----

Nice try, but it supports my contention and you know it. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• III. Neonazism 1. Objective Ideology the National socialism The Neonazism fastens to the ideology of the National socialism, therefore to a totalitarian, nationalistic and racist leader state with an unity party, whose core element is the following racist and antisemitic reason idea from that - " 25Punkte - program " - the NSDAP The Neonazism is not ideologically homogeneous however. Protection of the Constitution report 1996, most definitely a WP:RS.

This is a very bad software trnaslation from the German of a report from the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV) Bundesamtes für Verfassungsschutz. It is only about the revivial of national socialism in Germany. It does not deal with the growth of diverse forms of neonazi ideologies and movements outside of Germany beginning in the late 1980s. It does not support your contention.----

Nice try, but it supports my contention and you know it. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Right-wing extremism can be equated neither with National Socialism nor with neo-Fascism or neo-Nazism. Neo-Nazism, a legal term, is understood as the attempt to propagate, in direct defiance of the law (Verbotsgesetz), Nazi ideology or measures such as the denial, playing- down, approval or justification of Nazi mass murder, especially the Holocaust.
• Nazism is an abbreviation of National Socialism and it is often used instead of the whole word (see: National Socialism). It has become just as common to write and say Nazism when referring to National Socialism. Only opponents of the ideology, not the National Socialists themselves, use the term. The term neo-Nazism has subsequently lived on not just as a term for parliamentary extreme parties. It is even a term for the fledgling, National Socialist-influenced movement, which appeared in the British skinhead environment during the 1970s. It is doubtful as to whether it is meaningful to use the concept of neo-Nazism, since it has thereby come to be used mainly for all forms of variants of the old National Socialism.
• The term Neo-Nazism refers to any social, political and/or (quasi) religious movement seeking to revive Nazism or Fascism. Neo-Nazi groups are racist hate groups that pattern themselves after Hitler’s philosophies. Examples include: Aryan Nations, National Alliance This is actually one of Spylab's own sources. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 20:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

More:

• Neo-Nazi noun 1. A member or supporter of any of a number of modern movements supporting the principles of National Socialism. Derivative: Neo-Nazism noun — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 20:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I honestly do not see how these sources support your position...in fact several contradict your position.---- Cberlet (talk) 21:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Good, remind to ignore your opinion the next time you don't state why these sources don't support my position and how they contradict my position. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

To the person who keeps changing his username: calling yourself several different names in your signatures on talk pages is a form of (perhaps unintentional) sock puppetry because most readers will not realize that all the different people are actually one person. Most readers do not click on other people's usernames unless they think there is a reason to do so. Also, some of the names you are calling yourself may be genuine usernames of other Misplaced Pages editors, leading to even more confusion .
Thanks again for another attempted lesson about white nationalism, but if you read my earlier comment, you would understand that you were just repeating the same idea that I clearly expressed in my previous comment.
Misplaced Pages content is supposed to be based on what is verified by reliable sources. What is so difficult to understand about this? You have provided, zero references that disprove the fact that neo-Nazism is an ideology. If you understood Misplaced Pages policies, you would realize that the many reliable sources showing that neo-Nazism is an ideology carry much more weight than your own unreferenced personal opinion. If you want to push uncited points of view, I suggest you do it somewhere else other than Misplaced Pages.-- Spylab (talk) 21:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. The reference posted by amazing Mr. Name-changeo that he describes as one of my references, is one that I dropped from my list a long time ago. I still have 19 reliable references that explicitly call neo-Nazism an ideology.-- Spylab (talk) 21:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

None of your sources prove that Neo-Nazism is a different ideology. The only thing you've done, is to provide sources calling Neo-Nazism an ideology. That doesn't prove anything. Yes, most people consider it an ideology, because Neo-Nazism has an ideology, and its ideology is Nazism, not Neo-Nazism. How many times do I have to repeat this, until you get it? And the sources I've provided, clearly explain this. This is really getting tired. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, all 19 reliable references call neo-Nazism an ideology (as do many other reliable references provided by Berlet). Yes, most people consider neo-Nazism an ideology. Therefore, according to Misplaced Pages policy, that reality must be reflected in this article. How many times do I have to repeat this, until you get it?-- Spylab (talk) 21:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You can have 2,000,000 sources calling Neo-Nazism an ideology. It won't make any difference if those sources do not explain what kind of ideology it is. Look for sources explaining what ideology Neo-Nazism is; without fail, all of them will call it a political movement seeking to revive the ideology of National Socialism. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 21:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Again you are showing that you reject what Misplaced Pages is all about (See Misplaced Pages:Verifiability). Since you seem to oppose the main Misplaced Pages policy, perhaps you should promote your agenda somewhere else. The issue here is that many reliable references consider Neo-Nazism an ideology, therefore Misplaced Pages must state that Neo-Nazism is considered an ideology by many reliable sources. Stop trying to change the subject by demanding that the references state what that ideology is.Spylab (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You can't cite sources that vaguely call it an ideology without explaining what the ideology is. If you're going to cite a source calling Neo-Nazism an ideology, that source better explain what kind of ideology it is, or else it won't be accepted. And I'm not changing the subject, nor am I going against Misplaced Pages policy. Of course, that you accuse me of such things is just disingenuous, but that is what the entire subject has been from the very beginning. Several users complained that your sources weren't fit for the citation since they didn't go into details what ideology it is. That is why the article got locked. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 12:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

No, the article was locked by an edit war. The discussion that followed reveals that EliasAlucard is unable or unwilling to provide scholalry cites to support an original research POV, and instead conduct vague Internet searches and plucks scraps of phrases out of cyberspace and taken out of context and then claims that they support this marginal POV. They do not. It is time to move on. The discussion has become circular. --Cberlet (talk) 16:39, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Spylab. Here is a cite That explains the diverse forms of neonazi ideology:

"NEO-NAZISM, a general term for the related fascist, nationalist, white supremacist, antisemitic beliefs and political tendencies of the numerous groups that emerged after World War II seeking to restore the Nazi order or to establish a new order based on doctrines similar to those underlying Nazi Germany. Some of these groups closely adhered to the ideas propounded in Hitler's Mein Kampf; others espoused related beliefs deriving from older Catholic, nationalist, or other local traditions."

--Hearst, Ernest, Chip Berlet, and Jack Porter. "Neo-Nazism." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Eds. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. Vol. 15. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 74-82. 22 vols. Thomson Gale.--Cberlet (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice try Berlet, but citing yourself, isn't a WP:RS. Also, Neo-Nazism, ideologically speaking, has nothing to do with Catholicism. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 12:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I am citing the Encyclopedia Judaica--hardly a personal website. Furthermore, there are several neonazi ideolgical currents based on Roman Catholicism or a variant of Romanian Orthodox theology. There were several forms of interwar Nazism that were based in Roman Catholicism, of which the Ustaše movement is perhaps the best know. There are today neonazi Catholic Ustašein Croatia and the U.S.--Cberlet (talk) 16:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Ustaše was Fascist, not National Socialist and certainly not Neo-Nazism. Fascism is generally pro-Christianity, while Nazism opposes Christianity and embraces the "Aryan" race, which is considered incompatible with Christianity. While it is true that the Catholic Church supported Hitler, it was simply due to his anti-Communism plans. They were only allied in that sense, and to claim that Nazism is somehow compatible with Christianity, is nonsense and only reveals how minimal your understanding of this so called ideology you claim to be an expert on actually is. Christianity is considered a Jewish religion by Neo-Nazis, and they want to outlaw Christianity because of that. And don't bring up Positive Christianity; that one doesn't count. I think it's quite clear that you base your so called expertise on journalist articles rather than actually trying to understand this ideology. Your claims of Neo-Nazis supporting Catholicism is absolutely non-factual. And if they do, they don't understand their own ideology and how it is based on Germanic Neopaganism rather than a monotheistic Semitic religion like Christianity. — Aššur-bāni-apli (talk · contribs) 17:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Some were Catholic Nazis. "composed almost entirely of non-German Muslim and Catholic recruits drawn from Bosnia." Catholic and Muslim Nazis killing Orthodox Serbs and Jews.

This is getting silly.--Cberlet (talk) 20:19, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

It was silly from the moment the article got locked. Yes, Waffen SS recruited afterwards non-Germans (this was not allowed in the beginning of the second world war), some of which were Muslims and even Catholics, that is because they wanted to join in the war against Communism (Soviet). And your point is? What does that have to do with Neo-Nazism? How does a few recruited soldiers in a World War due to their religion, make Nazism ideologically compatible with Catholicism? Look, face it, Neo-Nazism is a movement with an ideology. That ideology is Nazism. This is very obvious. When people call Neo-Nazism an ideology, they are not referring to a different ideology, they are referring to the ideology Hitler and his cohorts created, but in its current form, which consists of several minor political movements dispersed throughout Europe and the United States. You can dance around the question and claim that Neo-Nazism is a different ideology than Nazism, but you'll have to present sources claiming that, but don't bother, since you won't find any. Now, are you going to stop wasting our time with this, or are you going to continue claiming Neo-Nazism is a new ideology? Obviously, it can't be an ideology since there's in no way a consensus on what should be included in it and excluded. The basic principles of Neo-Nazism is to try and emulate the ideology of NSDAP in a modern context. Seriously man, give it a rest, you know I'm right about this and it's pointless to keep on discussing this. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Movement & ideology

The material cited below below all discuss Nazism and/or Neonazism as a movement as well as an ideology. (under construction)

Interwar - movement & ideology

• Eatwell, Roger. 1996. “On Defining the ‘Fascist Minimum,’ the Centrality of Ideology,” Journal of Political Ideologies 1(3):303-19.
• Eatwell, Roger. 1997. Fascism: A History. New York: Allen Lane.
• Ellwood, Robert. 2000. “Nazism as a Millennialist Movement.” In Millennialism, Persecution, and Violence: Historical Cases, ed. Catherine Wessinger, 241-260. Syracuse: Syracuse University Press.
• Fritzsche, Peter. 1998. Germans into Nazis. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press.
• Kele, Max H. (1972). Nazis and Workers: National Socialist Appeals to German Labor, 1919–1933. Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press.
• Kühl, Stefan. 1994. The Nazi Connection: Eugenics, American Racism, and German National Socialism. New York, NY: Oxford University Press.
• Paxton, Robert O. 2004. The Anatomy of Fascism. New York, NY: Alfred A. Knopf.
• Payne, Stanley G. 1995. A History of Fascism, 1914–45. Madison, WI: University of Wisconsin Press.
• Poliakov, Leon. 1974. Aryan Myth: A History of Racist and Nationalist Ideas in Europe. New York, NY: Basic Books.
• Postone, Moishe. 1986. “Anti-Semitism and National Socialism.” In Germans & Jews Since the Holocaust: The Changing Situation in West Germany, ed. Anson Rabinbach and Jack Zipes, 302-314. New York: Homes & Meier.
• Redles, David . 2005. Hitler’s Millennial Reich: Apocalyptic Belief and the Search for Salvation, New York Univ. Press.
• Renton, Dave. 1999. “Fascism Is More Than An Ideology,” Searchlight, (August); online at <http://www.searchlightmagazine.com/stories/understandFascism.htm> (14 June 2004).
• Rhodes, James M. 1980. The Hitler Movement: A Modern Millenarian Revolution. Stanford, Calif: Hoover Institution Press, Stanford University.
• Vondung, Klaus. 2000. The Apocalypse in Germany, Columbia, MO: University. of Missouri Press.

Post WW-II movement & ideology

• Barkun, Michael. 1997. Religion and the Racist Right: The Origins of the Christian Movement, Identity. Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press.
• Berbrier, Mitch. 1998a. “‘Half the Battle’: Cultural Resonance, Framing Process, and Ethnic Affecta-tions in Contemporary White Separatist Rhetoric.” Social Problems 45: 431-47.
• Berlet, Chip. 2001. “Hate Groups, Racial Tension and Ethnoviolence in an Integrating Chicago Neighborhood 1976-1988.” Pp. 117–163 in Do-bratz, Walder, and Buzzell, eds., 2001.
• Berlet, Chip. 2004a. “Mapping the Political Right: Gender and Race Oppression in Right-Wing Movements.” Pp. 19-48 In Home-Grown Hate: Gender and Or-ganized Racism, edited by Abby L. Ferber. New York, NY: Routledge.
• Berlet, Chip. 2004b. “Christian Identity: The Apocalyptic Style, Political Religion, Palingenesis and Neo-Fascism.” Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions 5:469-506.
• Blazak, Randy. 2001. “White Boys to Terrorist Men: Target Recruitment of Nazi Skinheads.” American Behavioral Scientist 44:982-1000.
• Coogan, Kevin. 1999. Dreamer of the Day: Francis Parker Yockey and the Postwar Fascist Interna-tional. Brooklyn, N.Y.: Autonomedia.
• Dobratz, Betty A. and Stephanie Shanks-Meile. 1995. “Conflict in the White Supremacist/Racialist Movement in the United States.” International Journal of Group Tensions 25:57-75.
• Dobratz, Betty A. and Stephanie Shanks-Meile. 2000. “White Power, White Pride!” The White Separatist Movement in the United States. Balti-more, MD: Johns Hopkins University Press.
• Durham, Martin. 2002. “From Imperium to Internet: the National Alliance and the American Extreme Right” Patterns of Prejudice 36:50-61.
• Durham, Martin. 2004. “The Upward Path: Palingenesis, Political Religion and the National Alliance.” Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions 5:454-468.
• Ezekiel, Raphael S. 1995. The Racist Mind: Portraits of American Neo-Nazis and Klansmen. New York, NY: Viking.
• Futrell, Robert and Pete Simi. 2004. “Free Spaces, Collective Identity, and the Persistence of U.S. White Power Activism.” Social Problems 51:16-42.
• Gardell, Mattia. 2003. Gods of the Blood: The Pagan Revival and White Separatism. Durham, NC: Duke University Press.
• Gerstenfeld, Phyllis, Diana R. Grant and Chau-Pu Chiang. 2003. “Hate Online: A Content Analysis of Extremist Internet Sites.” Analyses of Social Is-sues and Public Policy 3:29-44.
• Goodrick-Clark, Nicholas. 2002. Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Na-zism, and the Politics of Identity. New York: NYU Press.
• Griffin, Roger. 1991. The Nature of Fascism. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press.
• Griffin, Roger. 2003. “From Slime Mould to Rhizome: an In-troduction to the Groupuscular Right.” Patterns of Prejudice 37:27-50.
• Griffin, Roger. 2004. “Introduction: God’s Counterfeiters? Investigating the Triad of Fascism, Totalitarian-ism and Political Religion.” Totalitarian Move-ments and Political Religions 5:291-325.
• Hamm, Mark S. 1993. American Skinheads: The Criminology and Control of Hate Crime. West Port, CT: Praeger Publishers.
• Kaplan, Jeffrey and Leonard Weinberg. 1998. The Emergence of a Euro-American Radical Right. New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press.
• Kaplan, Jeffrey and Tore Bjørgo, eds. 1998. Nation and Race: The Developing Euro-American Racist Subculture. Boston: Northeastern University Press.
• Laqueur, Walter. 1996. Fascism: Past, Present, Future. New York: Oxford: Oxford University Press.
• Mintz, Frank P. 1985. The Liberty Lobby and the American Right: Race, Conspiracy, and Culture. Westport, CT: Greenwood.
• Ridgeway, James. 1995. Blood in the Face : The Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Nations, Nazi Skinheads, and the Rise of a New White Culture. New York, NY: Thunder’s Mouth Press.
• Schmaltz, William H. (1999). Hate: George Lincoln Rockwell and the American Nazi Party. Washing-ton, DC: Brassey’s.
• Ware, Von and Les Back. 2002. “Wagner and Power Chords: Skinheadism, White Power Music, and the Internet.” Pp. 94-132 in Out of Whiteness: Color, Politics, and Culture. Chicago, IL: Univer-sity of Chicago Press.
• Whitsel, Brad. 1998. “The Turner Diaries and Cosmotheism: William Pierce’s Theology of Revolution.” Nova Religio 1:183-197.

Only an ideology

The material cited below below explicitly state that Nazism and/or Neonazism is only an ideology. (under construction)

Interwar - only an ideology

Post WW-II - only an ideology

New Lead

Template:RFCpol Since there was no serious attempt to provide scholarly cites to recent books on neonazism that state that neonazism is not an ideology in itself (or a series of related ideologies), the lead now reflects a more complicated summary based on numerous cites.--Cberlet (talk) 22:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to discuss changes to the new lead here. Please do so before rewriting and adding cites that do not support changes. Thanks.--Cberlet (talk) 02:09, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Your rewrite was somewhat better than Spylab's version. But the sources I've cited are reliable sources, and they explain what Neo-Nazism is. Just because some perceive Neo-Nazism as an ideology, it doesn't mean that is a distinct ideology from Nazism. In any case, we are not going anywhere since both you and Spylab simply refuse to understand. I think we should WP:RFC and see what others have to say. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 02:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Your cites, EliasAlucard, are superficial, outdated, and skimmed off an Internet search. Spylab and I do not fail to understand--we simply disagree with you. The most recent scholarship has a different approach than that which you are citing. We are citing more reliable and more scholarly materials. We have asked you repeatedly to do the same, yet you refuse. All you do is repeat your claims over and over, and yet fail to provide proper cites. Furthermore, on several pages you keep shifting your editing names in a way that creates the impression that you are more than one editor. This violates basic Misplaced Pages policy. I look forward to comments from other editors, and request that you use only one name in the discussion that follows. --Cberlet (talk) 03:24, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

You can disagree all you like. Your opinions are irrelevant as far as the facts on this topic matters, and the facts are, Neo-Nazism is not an ideology in itself. It contains an ideology, and that ideology is Nazism. Sources have been provided for this. You may not like it, but you'll have to accept it, unless you can offer better sources saying otherwise. All I've seen you do so far is to list titles of books and nothing else. And Spylab's links with short snippets calling Neo-Nazism an ideology are taken out of context, and it is highly WP:OR to do so. I've told you before, you can't just list the title of a scholarly book and claim it supports your POV. You will actually have to provide excerpts and quotes from certain passages etc. You can't just list titles of books; it is not enough. Despite me telling you this several times throughout the debate, you've continued to ignore this objection I've made. It is a valid concern, you can't just list titles of books and get your preferred revision of the article. By the way, the article got locked again, hope you're happy now and ready to continue this pointless debate for another two weeks. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 15:30, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

My references are not out of context, and they do meet Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable sources, especially since there are so many of them verifying the fact that neo-Nazism is an ideology. None of your references discredit the fact that neo-Nazism is considered an ideology.Spylab (talk) 15:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Your references are news sites and other media outlets, calling Neo-Nazism an ideology. Although they are not unreliable in that sense that they go against WP:RS, they do not pass as scholarly sources. It's interesting to note however the blatant hypocrisy from Cberlet, all the while talking about scholarly sources, yet he accepts Spylab's unacademic sources as long as they support his own POV. And yes, your sources are most definitely taken out of context. Not one of your sources describe what this so called ideology is. They only mention "Neo-Nazism ideology" in an unspecific context, and on top of that, do not define what that ideology is. Therefore, we cannot use them as a definition of Neo-Nazism in the lead. My sources, define what the ideology of Neo-Nazism is, and they define it as Nazism. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The idea, EliasAlucard, is that we reach a compromise. Spylab and I keep trying different ways to write the lead. You just keep reverting and saying that nothing we cite matters.

Here is a cite that explains the diverse forms of neonazi ideology:

"NEO-NAZISM, a general term for the related fascist, nationalist, white supremacist, antisemitic beliefs and political tendencies of the numerous groups that emerged after World War II seeking to restore the Nazi order or to establish a new order based on doctrines similar to those underlying Nazi Germany. Some of these groups closely adhered to the ideas propounded in Hitler's Mein Kampf; others espoused related beliefs deriving from older Catholic, nationalist, or other local traditions."

--Hearst, Ernest, Chip Berlet, and Jack Porter. "Neo-Nazism." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Eds. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. Vol. 15. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 74-82. 22 vols. Thomson Gale.--Cberlet (talk) 22:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Now it is your turn to provide a text with a cite. Then we can discuss which one makes for a better basis on which to write an encyclopedia entry, rather than a dictionary definition.--Cberlet (talk) 15:42, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you please keep your own POV sources out of this article? You can't edit an article and add your own revised sources into it. That would violate WP:NPOV. You are simply trying to impose your own POV into the article by doing that. My sources, I've listed them several times:

• Werner Bergmann (1997). Anti-Semitism in Germany: The Post-Nazi Epoch Since 1945. Transaction Publishers. pp. pp. 91. ISBN 1560002700. OCLC 35318351. In contrast to today, in which rigid authoritarianism and neo-Nazism are characteristic of marginal groups, open or latent leanings toward Nazi ideology in the 1940s and 1950s {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth=, |month=, |accessyear=, and |accessmonthday= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• Martin Polley (200). A-Z of Modern Europe Since 1789. Routledge. pp. pp. 103. ISBN 0415185971. OCLC 49569961. Neo-nazism, drawing heavily both on the ideology and aesthetics of the NSDAP, emerged in many parts of Europe and elsewhere in the economic crises of the 1970s, and has continued to influence a number of small political groups. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth=, |month=, |accessyear=, |accessmonthday=, and |coauthors= (help)
• Brigitte Bailer-Galanda. "Right-Wing Extremism in Austria: History, Organisations, Ideology". Right-wing extremism can be equated neither with National Socialism nor with neo-Fascism or neo-Nazism. Neo-Nazism, a legal term, is understood as the attempt to propagate, in direct defiance of the law (Verbotsgesetz), Nazi ideology or measures such as the denial, playing- down, approval or justification of Nazi mass murder, especially the Holocaust. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth=, |month=, |accessyear=, and |accessmonthday= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)
• "Neo-Nazism". ApologeticsIndex. The term Neo-Nazism refers to any social, political and/or (quasi) religious movement seeking to revive Nazism or Fascism. Neo-Nazi groups are racist hate groups that pattern themselves after Hitler's philosophies. Examples include: Aryan Nations, National Alliance {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth=, |month=, |accessyear=, |accessmonthday=, and |coauthors= (help)
• Martin Frost. "Neo Nazism". The term Neo-Nazism is used to refer to any social or political movement seeking to revive National Socialism or a form of Fascism, and which postdates the Second World War. Often, especially internationally, those who are part of such movements do not use the term to describe themselves. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth=, |month=, |accessyear=, |accessmonthday=, and |coauthors= (help)

These sources are more than enough adequate for their purpose, and if you have scholarly sources strongly contradicting these sources, you are welcome to provide them. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:01, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

None of those quotes actually discredit the fact that many reliable sources consider Neo-Nazism an ideology. Therefore, you have no justification for blanking verified factual content from this article. Also, one of your references says neo-Nazism " heavily both on the ideology and aesthetics of the NSDAP", which contradicts your inaccurate claim that neo-Nazism is the exact same ideology as Nazi Germany.Spylab (talk) 16:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

None of those quotes actually discredit the fact that many reliable sources consider Neo-Nazism an ideology. — That is because Neo-Nazism has an ideology, the ideology is Nazism, not Neo-Nazism. In your world Spylab, this may be an impossibility, but you will simply have to consider that some people are sloppy in their descriptions sometimes, especially if it's News and Media related. Also, one of your references says neo-Nazism " heavily both on the ideology and aesthetics of the NSDAP", which contradicts your inaccurate claim that neo-Nazism is the exact same ideology as Nazi Germany. — Is that a joke? That source does not contradict my claim that the ideology in Neo-Nazism is Nazism. It in fact corroborates my claim that the ideology found in Neo-Nazism is plain and simple Nazism. If you want to be taken seriously from now on as a Misplaced Pages editor, you better not try to distort what the sources say. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 01:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The cites by EliasAlucard are outdated and contradicted by more recent scholarship. Here is what Nicholas Goodrick-Clark writes:

• “This book originated as a sequal volume to The Occult Roots of Nazism in order to document the survival of occult Nazi themes in the postwar period. As work progressed, however, my perspective broadened considerably. Far from tracing faded fascist mystics and redundant ideas, I found that I was actually having to write a new history of contemporary neo-völkish groups and ideology in America and Europe.” p. 6. (emphasis added)

--Nicholas Goodrick-Clark. 2002. Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity. New York: NYU Press.

This new scholarship is at the heart of this debate.--Cberlet (talk) 18:28, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The cites by EliasAlucard are outdated and contradicted by more recent scholarship. — This is what Chip Berlet claims. First of all, Mr. Berlet, who are you to decide what sources are outdated and contradicted by "recent scholarship"? Neo-Nazism is not a political movement that changes its ideology every five days, no less is it an ideology under constant revision. The sources presented by me are fine, and they explain very clearly that Neo-Nazism is an ideology taking after the ideology of Nazi Germany. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 01:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The latest 'correction' of the introductory sentence reads:

Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements and ideologies that promote in a variety of ways an updated or revised version of Nazism.

Fine. The missing point is:

• Who is updating Nazism? What is the exact meaning of the updating Nazism? Where it is visible and verifiable?

• The same way arises question about the revised Nazism i.e. who revised it and when?. What was original Nazi teaching and who revised it and how?
• Also, why we have here the plural - ideologies? Who classified and counted them?

I would like to get clear answer to these questions before seeing what might be or what is already supported by the list of references offered.

As it was stated at the very starting point of this discussion - Spylab and Cberlet are asked to answer the question: What makes Neo-Nazism a separate, distinct from Nazism ideology? We are still waiting a clear answer to this question.

I am afraid that these two thinks that the same ideas (of the Nazism) re-worded, re-phrased and put into a context of current political events and aims - could be treated as a separate, new ideology (= Neo-Nazism). This is my comment on the Cberlet's "Here is a cite that explains the diverse forms of neonazi ideology:" given above

Reading just a few references offered by Spylab I see

• Consequently, it has no coherent political ideology, but is, however, most often characterised by two defining elements: extreme nationalism and xenophobia.

• An ideology which draws upon the legacy of the Nazi Third Reich, the main pillars of which are comprised of an admiration for Adolf Hitler, aggressive nationalism (“nothing but the nation”), and hatred of Jews, foreigners, ethnic minorities, homosexuals and everyone who is different in some way.
  • So, all above is clearly Nazism

• An extremely important part of continuing an ideology is to ensure the maintenance of it by future generations. The concept was not lost among neo-Nazis, and certainly not lost among the Nazis. "The training of the German youth," explains Lewis, "was a key element in the methodology employed by Hitler" (Lewis, 53). It was a "total immersion of the young Germans into Nazi ideology," Lewis continues, that "set the stage for a program of leadership that was designed to continue the evolution of the Nazi power" (Lewis, 53). It is true that the "defeat of the National Socialists brought about the dissolution of the Nazi era youth organizations," yet, "although these groups…were organizationally dissolved, the concepts and ideology were more difficult to eliminate" (Lewis, 53). The Nazi philosophy and methods were the only ones these young people knew.
  • Once again Neo-Nazism = Nazism

• Their frustrations associated with unimployment and decreased opportunities provided the situation where capitalism became tainted and the need to find a balance between nationalism and socialism that would justify their movement offered a new approach to the neo-Nazi ideology
  • Once again Neo-Nazism = Nazism

I would suggest that Cberlet makes an effort to clearly answer the questions given above without making the list of references larger and without disqualifying the ones defeating his claim by saying "The cites by EliasAlucard are outdated and contradicted by more recent scholarship". Please, do not take a high post when responding to someone! Pay attention to the facts and to the basic logic of you answer.--Smerdyakoff (talk) 23:47, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that you read the book by Nicholas Goodrick-Clark published in 2002. Have you read this book Smerdyakoff? Yes or no?--Cberlet (talk) 02:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that you take an introductory course of logic ( like this one - Introduction to Logic) and work with your mentor on recognizing common forms of fallacious or incorrect reasoning. That shall help you to understand the references you are calling upon and save some time to all of us --Smerdyakoff (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It's funny, isn't it? First they rewrote the lead to Neo-Nazism being an ideology (as in singular), and then they couldn't make up their minds, and rewrote it to Neo-Nazism being several ideologies. This is entirely WP:OR; they are dancing around new and contrived definitions without any sources supporting it. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 01:21, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, a number of the cites above clearly state that there were modifications to traditional Nazi ideology by neonazis. That's what the new lead states. That's what Nicholas Goodrick-Clark wrote in 2002. I do not have to answer your questions, you need to read the Goodrick-Clark book to find the answers. That's why scholars write books. That's why scholars revisit earlier concepts and suggest new realities based on changing circumstances. Folks here can insist that the older, outdated research should trump the newer research. They can read text that clearly states that neonazis have modified traditional Nazi ideology. They can have tantruns, they can demand answers, But what they have not done so far, is provide cites to recent scholarship that supports their claims. This is an emotional response to a new set of ideas. Too bad. Sorry. The times have changed. New scholarship reveals that neonazis no longer a just rubber stamps of Hitler. That's why we write an encycopedia. To help people understand. It is about real research. Get over it. The scholarship has shifted. Move on. The current new lead is already a compromise.--Cberlet (talk) 00:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that you read the book by Nicholas Goodrick-Clark published in 2002. Have you read this book EliasAlucard? Yes or no?--Cberlet (talk) 02:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I've checked it out a little:

• “The scene is set with a historical review of neo-Nazism in the United States and Britain. Here Nazism revived as an extremist response to communism, liberalism and more especially the desegregation of African Americans and colored immigrants.” — pp. 2 ISBN 0814731554
• “From the 1950s to the 1970s, neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups essentially imitated the past with uniformed cadres, swastika flags and marches. The fringe political parties remained the preserve of fanatics, and recruitment was strictly limited to those who admired fascism or were convinced anti-Semites. Even if German nationalism was transformed into a global ideology of white racism, the historical and political experience of Nazi Germany remained the dominant model for emulation.” — pp. 3 ISBN 0814731554

Excellent points, corroborating what I've been saying ever since this article got locked. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 03:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, you can call me Elias ;) — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 03:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

• Phrases such as "draws heavily upon" or "is heavily influenced by" clearly do not mean the same thing as "exactly duplicating" or "continuing the same thing". If neo-Nazism was the exact same as Nazism, then the term neo-Nazism would not exist, and neither would this article.Spylab (talk) 01:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
  • For Christ's sake man, no one has said that the ideology in Neo-Nazism is indistinguishable from the Nazism founded by Hitler. Yes, there are some minor differences. For instance, Holocaust denial has been added to it. Some Neo-Nazis are also inspired by Savitri Devi. But it's still the same ideology as Nazism, because these minor changes, are insignificant. And "draws heavily upon" or "is heavily influenced by" means exactly that: Neo-Nazism does not come with a new ideology, it packs the same ideology as Hitler's ideology, with some minor changes. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 02:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Furthermore, Neo-Nazis do not call themselves Neo-Nazis. They regard themselves as National Socialists. So it doesn't matter what scholarship sources you have, in the end, we have to accept that they are following the ideology of National Socialism à la 1933-1945 in a modern context, with all that it entails. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 02:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

How about this as a compromise suggestion: "Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements and ideologies that seek to revive Nazism and that promote in a variety of ways an updated or revised version of it. The term is rarely used by Neo-Nazis themselves, who reguard themselves as National Socialists. " Yahel Guhan 02:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• No evideence have been provided to back up the claim that neo-Nazis call themselves National Socialists. In fact, many groups and individuals who are considered neo-Nazis by reliable sources do not use either of the two terms to describe themselves.Spylab (talk) 02:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

point taken. I was trying to come up with something that contained the best of both versions. So how about this: "Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements and ideologies that seek to revive Nazism and that promote in a variety of ways an updated or revised version of it. " Yahel Guhan 02:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• All right Spylab, that's it, I am not going to take you seriously from now on about this subject. All of your opinions will be ignored by me. Clearly, you have no knowledge at all about Neo-Nazism, Nazism, or anything remotely related to it. Or, you are just trolling or something. Because after all, you do know damn well that National Socialist Front, a Neo-Nazi group, calls itself National Socialist. Yet you are ignoring and denying it and claiming there's "no evidence". Bullshit there's no evidence. Just look at the titles of the parties used by Neo-Nazi groups; no Neo-Nazi group has either Nazi or Neo-Nazi in its title. In fact, many groups and individuals who are considered neo-Nazis by reliable sources do not use either of the two terms to describe themselves. — Yes, but then again, you can't even criticize Islam today without being called a Neo-Nazi. Just because there are people who are considered Neo-Nazis, it doesn't mean they are Neo-Nazis. Just because some racist in a European country says "I hate niggers" it doesn't mean that he subscribes to an Indo-Aryan philosophy, belief in a racial connection between European peoples and Indo-Aryans invading Iran and India, etc. You have to realise that "Neo-Nazi" is a misused epithet in many cases used for ad hominem purposes directed at racists. Just like for instance Fascism is a misused epithet ("Islamofascism", and similar remarks). In any case, I will not take you seriously on this article, because you don't know this subject and you fail to understand something as basic as you cannot call several movements with various interpretations of an ideology "an ideology". And here's a source anyway confirming what I've just said. Not that it matters anyway since you in your POV do not read these WP:RS sources. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 10:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• You mention one neo-Nazi group as calling itself National Socialist. That is not even close to proving that all, or most, neo-Nazis call themselves National Socialist. I read the source you linked to, and I'm not sure which point you are using it to prove. Keep in mind, that even if that source claims one thing, other reliable sources may have a different view on the topic, and Misplaced Pages articles should take into account various reliable sources instead of hinging on one reference.Spylab (talk) 15:31, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • Seriously, have you even read the article? Where can you find a Neo-Nazi party calling itself Neo-Nazi here: Neo-Nazi#Neo-Nazi organizations. There's only one obscure party calling itself American Nazi Party, which later changed its name to National Socialist White People's Party. But yeah, there's no evidence, right? Look, the very fact that Neo-Nazi parties call their own ideology National Socialism, pretty much spells it out for you: the ideology of Neo-Nazism is Nazism. Period. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 20:50, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to base an analysis on another Misplaced Pages entry. Please cite a reputable published source.--Cberlet (talk) 02:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

request

{{editprotected}} Please add {{pp-dispute}} to the top of the page, informing readers that the page is protected. Yahel Guhan 02:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, good initiative Yahel. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 02:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

For sure! (Done) --Haemo (talk) 21:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Back to revising lead

How about a little tweak of the last suggestion:

• Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements and ideologies that seek to revive Nazism or, in a variety of ways, promote an updated or revised version of it.

This seems like a reasonable compromise. --Cberlet (talk) 15:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I still haven't seen any scholarly sources of yours, defining Neo-Nazism as a separate, distinct ideology. The only thing I've seen is a list of books: Talk:Neo-Nazism#Post WW-II movement .26 ideology, which in itself doesn't tell me anything. How about this for a compromise:

• Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements with various interpretations of the Nazi ideology, seeking to revive the ideology of National Socialism in a modern context.

That sounds like a very accurate description to me. — Aššur-bāni-apli II (talk · contribs) 20:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Not all groups studied by contemporary scholars as "neonazi" consider themselves a form of "national socialism." Spylab and try try to find compromise text, and you just going back to the same factuyally false construction, because for some reason you consider "Nazism" and "national socialism" to be the same thing. German Nazism was only one form of "national socialism," and even it had two main branches. Some neonazi "Strasserite" faction groups consider themselves "national socialists" but denounce Hitler. This needs to be incorporated into the lead.--Cberlet (talk) 21:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Please do not engage in logical fallacies. If Nazism is a form of National Socialism, and if some groups do not consider themselves a form of National Socialism, then they are do not consider themselves a form of Nazism (as your "contemporary scholars" define it). -- Vision Thing -- 21:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

You can't just ignore the new scholarship that finds the situation today is more complicated. The term "neonazism" now refers to a range of ideologies, not all congruent, and not all mimics of German "Nazism." --Cberlet (talk) 22:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• OK, stop correcting and tutoring others - start answering questions: 1) Who ranged the "ideologies", where, and where? 2) Why they are still "neonazim" - if not mimicking the (German) Nazism, i.e. what makes them radically different than the Nazism??? 3) Give us a single example of the "ideology" through fully description its core teaching and show us the differences between the Nazism and that "ideology".--Smerdyakoff (talk) 02:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Try citing a reputable published source rather than engaging in personal attacks.I do not need to answer original research questions. I need to cite reputable published sources--which I have done.--Cberlet (talk) 02:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

• • The questions are original research??? Should be questions asked only if found somewhere else??? Looks like you know what shall be a right question and the right answer to the same question!--Smerdyakoff (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

EliasAlucard, please stop using different names in this discussion, Just use EliasAlucard.

You will find a list of White supremacist groups here.

Many are considered neonazi. For example: Aryan Nations, National Vanguard, National Alliance, White Aryan Resistance, White Nationalist Party, National Socialist Movement, Creativity Movement, Hammerskin Nation, and National Socialist Black Metal. They all have different ideologies. That's why the journal article I co-wrote stated:

• "Organized White Supremacist groups in the United States evolved from their historic base of various predecessor Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazi organizations (Schmaltz 1999; Trelease 1995; Chalmers 1965). Over time, they spread into a wide range of competing forms and ideologies."

--Chip Berlet and Stanislav Vysotsky. (2006, Summer). Overview of U.S. white supremacist groups. Journal of Political and Military Sociology 34(1), 11-48. (Special Issue on the white power movement in the United States, B. A. Dobratz and L. K. Walsner).

"Competing forms and ideologies." That's quite clear, right?

• Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements and ideologies that seek to revive Nazism or, in a variety of ways, have developed new and "competing forms and ideologies."

Another attempt at a compromise. --Cberlet (talk) 21:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• Look, anyone who has a basic understanding of the Nazism ideology, knows that Nazism, is an ideology that focuses on the European peoples (i.e., Germanic peoples in particular) being of the same race as the Proto-Indo-Europeans, and the Nazi ideology is of the opinion that Germans are of the same Indo-Aryan race. Then there is the militant aspect, combined with Social Darwinism, racial supremacism, etcetera. Neo-Nazism doesn't differ on this, from Hitler's Nazism. Therefore, you cannot call Neo-Nazism a new ideology. Its ideology is simply Nazism. And the Strasserite faction, let's not exaggerate that one, all right? To call Strasserism an ideology is an overstatement. Otto never got far enough, he was just a Nazi-intellectual part of Hitler's party, who had some disagreements. He never developed the Nazi ideology that much to begin with. And I know that there are Strasserites even today. They are irrelevant, since they're more like, Socialists rather than National Socialists. And yes, like it or not, but Hitler's rendition of National Socialism is the standardized model for National Socialism. Yes, there are other political parties who call themselves National Socialism, but they are entirely unrelated to Hitler's National Socialism, and to call Nazism "a form of National Socialism" on the basis of some obscure National Socialist parties whose political influence has been minimal, is overdoing it. Yes, there are some deviations from Nazism and they are considered Neo-Nazis but they are not Neo-Nazis. You have to understand, Nazism, as we know it, is not something you can apply on virtually any party that imbues some Socialist elements and some nationalist elements. There are certain criteria that must be followed through in order to call it Nazism. The Ku Klux Klan, for instance, cannot be called Neo-Nazism. Although it is close to Nazism, it has elements (such as Christianity) that would never be accepted by an orthodox Neo-Nazi. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 23:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Some groups that practice Christian Identity are called neonazi--such as Aryan Nations. They are Christian neoazis. Wake up and read the scholarship. Cite a published source to back up your claims. We all know the old analytical model of neonazism. What about the new analytical model? I am citing new published sources that support my position. What about you folks? You just keep repeating the same outdated mantra and making personal attacks.--Cberlet (talk) 02:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, the 'Cristian Identity' and the 'Aryan Nations' notions are here just the way to target different groups of people - by the same teaching - which actuallly makes no difference between your "Christian" Nazis and the Nazis. To see why it is so - read Gott Segne Den Fuehrer Die Kirchen im Dritten Reich, Eine Dokumentation von Bekentnissen und Selbstzeugen by Nikolaus von Preradovich und Josef Stingl published by Druffel Verlag, Leoni am Stamberger See 1986. So, answer my questions above based on your claims about the 'differences' and then I refute them, one by one, by citing this book of documents.--Smerdyakoff (talk) 03:25, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of that. But as I've told you, they do not understand their own ideology. Hitler would never have allowed Christianity in Germany if it weren't for Germany being occupied with a world war. He had other priorities. But Nazism in itself, is radically anti-Christian. Sources:

• Hexham, Irving (2007). "Inventing 'Paganists': a Close Reading of Richard Steigmann-Gall's the Holy Reich". Journal of Contemporary History. Vol. 42 (No. 1). SAGE Publications: pp. 59-78. {{cite journal}}: |issue= has extra text (help); |pages= has extra text (help); |volume= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laysource=, |laydate=, |month=, |laysummary=, and |quotes= (help)
• Kershaw, Ian (2001). The "Hitler Myth": Image and Reality in the Third Reich. Oxford University Press. pp. pp. 109. ISBN 0192802062. OCLC 47063365. Hitler's evident ability to simulate, even to potentially critical Church leaders, an image of a leader keen to uphold and protect Christianity was crucial to the mediation of such an image to the church-going public by influential members of both major denominations. It was the reason why church-going Christians, so often encouraged by their 'opinion-leaders' in the Church hierarchies, were frequently able to exclude Hitler from their condemnation of the anti-Christian Party radicals, continuing to see in him the last hope of protecting Christianity from Bolshevism. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |accessdaymonth=, |month=, |accessyear=, |accessmonthday=, and |coauthors= (help)

If there happens to be Neo-Nazi groups that favour Christianity, it doesn't mean it is following a different ideology, but rather so, that they've ignored a basic tenet of Nazism. In Nazism, the Aryan cannot be a follower of Jesus Christ. Nazism is built upon Indo-European/Aryan religions and traditions. Christianity is incompatible with that. And let's not forget what Hitler himself said: “The old beliefs will be brought back to honor again. The whole secret knowledge of nature, of the divine, the demonic. We will wash off the Christian veneer and bring out a religion peculiar to our race.” If they allow Christianity, they are not Neo-Nazis, but have rather copied some loose ideological points from the Nazi ideology. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 09:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Original Research by EliasAlucard is fascinating, but has no merit in this discussion. According to EliasAlucard, "If there happens to be Neo-Nazi groups that favour Christianity, it doesn't mean it is following a different ideology, but rather so, that they've ignored a basic tenet of Nazism." So now EliasAlucard is not only discarding conflicting text from recently published scholars, but also lecturing neonazis on the proper ideology they should be following. The fact is that at least one recently published scholar sees German Nazism as a "Holy Reich" based on Christianity. I happen to disagree, but Steigmann–Gall cannot simply be dismissed:

Steigmann–Gall, Richard. 2003. The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Furthermore, a number of recently published scholars note that starting in the 1970s, neonazi groups, especially in the United States, began to develop hybrid and syncretic forms.

Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement. See especially Griffin, Durham, and Berlet.

Our job here is to summarize the various majority views in reputable published sources, not to cherry-pick only those cites that support one narrow (and outdated) interpretation.--Cberlet (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Majority view in reputable published sources:

• Lee McGowan "The Radical Right in Germany: 1870 to the Present" (2002): "The term neo-National Socialism (or more commonly neo-Nazism) proves much more helpful and is applied o those individuals and groups which openly espouse the restoration of the Third Reich. Neo-Nazis deliberately seek a totalitarian state on the basis of the elite – or leader principle after the pattern of NSDAP."

• Cas Mudde "The Ideology of the Extreme Right" (2000): "Generally speaking, the terms neo-Nazism and to a lesser extent neo-fascism are now used exclusively for parties and groups that explicitly state a desire to restore the Third Reich (in the case of neo-fascism the Italian Social Republic) or quote historical National Socialism (fascism) as their ideological influence." -- Vision Thing -- 18:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no doubt that McGowan and Mudde represent one view of the term. But there are a number of other authors who use the term differently. Both represent a substantial POV. There are multiple uses of the term neonazism by scholars, and the lead should not be written to exclude that fact.--Cberlet (talk) 20:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It's in no way original research by me. Nazism is not friendly towards Christianity. Not in its pure ideology anyway. If there are Neo-Nazi groups accepting Christianity, then they are not entirely following through with their ideology. In any case, that is not what we're discussing here. We're discussing Neo-Nazism as an ideology, let's stick to that. Look, can we be reasonable here? I mean, let's not make this more complicated than it is. McGowan and Mudde represent a very accurate description of what Neo-Nazism is, and they're not alone in that description. Neo-Nazis themselves happen to agree with their description. Many Neo-Nazi groups want to revive the Third Reich, or a similar Nordic Reich, etcetera. Neo-Nazism is not an ideology, the ideology is Nazism and Neo-Nazism is just a term used to describe political groups who adhere to the Nazi ideology. Why is this so difficult to understand? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh and of course Richard Steigmann–Gall can be dismissed. His opinions are inaccurate, and it has been proven by Hitler himself. Watch for instance Nazis: The Occult Conspiracy and you'll get a pretty good idea of what Hitler thought of Christianity. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 12:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• As you have just demonstrated, many neo-Nazis do not exactly duplicate the original Nazi policies and ideology. Also, while some Nazis were hostile to Christianity, the historical record shows that this was not a universal stance in Nazi Germany, nor among members of the Nazi Party. The original Nazi ideology is full of contradictions and changes, and is no more "comprehensive" and homogeoneous than the neo-Nazi ideology that you claim doesn't exist.Spylab (talk) 15:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, while some Nazis were hostile to Christianity, the historical record shows that this was not a universal stance in Nazi Germany, nor among members of the Nazi Party. — Yes, but Nazism is not "Democracy", an average citizen of Nazi Germany who favoured Christianity is of no concern to the Nazi ideology. Nazism is based on a hierarchy. What counts is not some members in the Nazi party, but what the leader of the party says. And let's face it, Nazism is not in favour of Christianity. It is based on Indo-Aryan traditions and Indo-European religions, it does not favour a religion that originates from the Jewish people. This is very obvious and easy to understand. The original Nazi ideology is full of contradictions and changes, and is no more "comprehensive" and homogeoneous than the neo-Nazi ideology that you claim doesn't exist. — The Nazi ideology in Nazi Germany is the only state in the world where Nazism has existed and been in practise. Like it or not, but it has more merits than some obscure Neo-Nazi groups who have never had any political power and are trying to emulate its predecessor. Your claims that Neo-Nazism is a distinct ideology should not be taken seriously because it is heavily original research without one single source in favour of your alleged claim. You can find one billion sources calling Neo-Nazism an ideology, you won't find one single source calling it a different ideology. Question is: when will you understand this? How long are you going to argue against the obvious? I can continue this discussion for an entire year if you want - repeating my arguments, without us getting anywhere. I suggest you give up and drop this and accept that you are entirely wrong, or we will just continue this pointless debate for the next 364 days to come. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 16:21, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• On Misplaced Pages you can't just say thinks like "let's face it" or that something is "obvious" or "entirely wrong" and not back it up without anything other than your own personal opinion. That is POV-pushing and original research. In particular, there is much undeniable historical evidence that the original German Nazis and their East European allies worked with Christian authorities, despite the fact that some Nazis supported Pagan and occult beliefs. I suggest you stop bullying and trying to silence editors who present well-referenced facts that don't comply with your revisionist agenda.Spylab (talk) 18:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • As I've said before, Spylab, I will not take you seriously, and this is the exact reason why: you say that I'm not backing up my POV with anything beside my personal opinion. This is a lie. I have provided several sources, some even scholarly sources, and you still continue to lie about it and deny it. As long as you continue to lie and deny the sources I've brought, you will be ignored by me. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
    • By the way, just because there was some cooperation with Nazis and Christian authorities, it doesn't mean that Nazism as an ideology allows Christianity for the Germanic peoples. It is, as I've told you before, only accepting Indo-European religions, such as Hinduism, and Ásatrú. You have failed to represent sources that classify Neo-Nazism as a different and distinct ideology from Nazism. It is time that you acknowledge that you are wrong. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
      • I'd like to warn you, Spylab , that you already did a lot of damage to this article. The evidence is visible on the talk page above ( frivolous handling the law's authenticity and law's interpretation phrases and deleting half of quoted text then "fixing grammar" of the quoted text - all in the Croatia section). The questions raised here cannot be marked as POV-pushing or original research. You are deliberately abusing these Misplaced Pages rules or you do not understand them. All I see is - that I am going to revert your alterations of the introductory text as soon as it becomes possible. Also avoid inserting sentence, which you picked up somewhere and which are irrelevant to the text alterations you've made, like: there is much undeniable historical evidence that the original German Nazis and their East European allies worked with Christian authorities, despite the fact that some Nazis supported Pagan and occult beliefs--Smerdyakoff (talk) 19:08, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
        • Yes, he did the same kind of damage to the Nazism article, deleted content, changed entire sections, etc. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
• To Smerdyakoff:The disruptive POV-pushing editor who barely understood English, who was edit warring with me (and others) in the Croatia section has been permanently banned from Misplaced Pages for his edits in this article and others, as well as sock puppetry, personal attacks, and probably other offences. If I were you, I would not point to that section and falsely accuse me of "damaging" this article. If you, are, in fact a new incarnation of that permanently-banned editor, then you are not supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages at all.Spylab (talk) 19:22, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
  • My answers to these insults and false accusations of me and others (who barely understood English, permanently banned, etc) are given here and on the Spylab talk page --Smerdyakoff (talk) 01:43, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• If you are not NovaNova, you certainly write in the same style as him.Spylab (talk) 17:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

<---------Let's terminate this childish nonsense and get back to the text. We should ask for an administrative review of the claims and move on pending that review.--Cberlet (talk) 17:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Original Research, published sources, undue weight, and NPOV

I think there is some confusion over Misplaced Pages guidelinas about original Research, published sources, undue weight, and NPOV. Let's consider this statement by EliasAlucard

• "Oh and of course Richard Steigmann–Gall can be dismissed. His opinions are inaccurate."

Here is the heart of the problem in this discussion. Richard Steigmann–Gall is a scholar with a published book. I happen to disagree with Steigmann–Gall's contentions, but that is not the point. It is not up to editors on Wikipeida to decide which scholars are "dismissed" because they have "inaccurate" views. What is happening here is that cites to reputable published sources are being dismissed because some editors disagree with them. That is 100% contrary to Misplaced Pages policies. We cannot move forward until this violation of Misplaced Pages policies is addressed. Therefore I am posting a Request for Comment.--Cberlet (talk) 17:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

He was proven wrong by Irving Hexman. Being a scholar doesn't mean you can only speak the infallible truth and never be wrong on anything. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Hexman is not infallible either, and the link says nothing about him "proving" anything:

This article questions Richard Steigmann-Gall's claim that leading National Socialists were essentially ‘Christian’ and that neo-pagan ideas played an insignificant role in the ideology of nazism. This is done by examining the argument of Dr Goebbels' novel Michael. Ein deutsches Schicksal in Tagebuchblättern (1929) to reveal its anti-Christian structure. Speeches and other statements by and about Goebbels are then looked at to show that his work is consistent with German neo-pagan thought. The role of Alfred Rosenberg is then re-examined, demonstrating that, contrary to the claims of Steigmann-Gall and many other writers, his work was highly regarded by Hitler and other nazi leaders and played a prominent role in promoting the National Socialist Weltanschauung. Finally, the argument is reviewed in terms of historical method, the problem of using literature to illustrate an author's ideas, and the researcher's encounter with a totally alien outlook.

I don't see the word prove or proven anywhere, and I don't see any evidence that his argument should be considered more correct than the arguments of other experts.Spylab (talk) 21:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Spylab, but please, lets desist with all the extra asterisks and stick to formats with multiple colons. I am having a hard time reading this. Look, I have published an article in a scholarly journal disagreeing with Steigmann-Gall, but it is not up to Wikipeida editors to claim that some other scholar has "proven wrong" the work of Steigmann-Gall. We are supposed to illustrate different positions when there are disagreements--not determine which scholar is "right" or "wrong." Can we just take a break for a few days and collect some outside comments, please?--Cberlet (talk) 21:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Spylab, if you haven't read his article, you shouldn't comment on it. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 22:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

What sources are appropriate for this article?

Template:RFCpol

Many scholars define Neo-Nazism simply as an attempt to revive German Nazism. A significant number of scholars with recent writings, however, suggest Neo-Nazism has evolved into a more complicated set of ideologies and movements. I am arguing that this needs to be reflected in the lead and body of the article. Others oppose this. In addition, there is a contention that some published scholars should be "dismissed" because they have "inaccurate" views. Please help us sort this out.--Cberlet (talk) 17:34, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Many scholars define Neo-Nazism simply as an attempt to revive German Nazism. — Yes, and so do most Neo-Nazis as well. A significant number of scholars with recent writings, however, suggest Neo-Nazism has evolved into a more complicated set of ideologies and movements. — You have not presented one single source that supports this claim. I am arguing that this needs to be reflected in the lead and body of the article. Others oppose this. — I agree that this needs to be reflected in the lead. The problem is, that is not what you are trying to reflect in the lead. You have not brought such sources, claiming that Neo-Nazism is something else. In fact, the sources Spylab has added to the article, only supports that Neo-Nazism is a revival of Nazism. Sorry, but you are not presenting your case very well here. In addition, there is a contention that some published schoalrs should be "dismissed" because they have "inaccurate" views. — Yes, some scholars may be mistaken. Of course, their opinions are always welcome on Misplaced Pages, but if more modern research has proven them wrong, that must be reflected, or else, their opinions shouldn't be included as facts in the articles. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 21:06, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

EliasAlucard, please, this was supposed to be the space for outside editor comments. Let's wait a few days before continuing the dispute here in this section, please?--Cberlet (talk) 21:38, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem is, you are misrepresenting the case here, in a very disingenuous way. You are presenting it like you have done nothing wrong. You have constantly for an entire week now failed to provide a source that supports your POV, that Neo-Nazism is something else than Nazism. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 22:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks a lot like a bunch of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, and a little bit of WP:POINT. sigh. - Jeeny 21:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Is that supposed to be funny? — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 22:05, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all. - Jeeny 22:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

• OK, let us go back to the latest in the lead section of this article: Neo-Nazism (literally new Nazism) refers to several post-World War II political movements and ideologies that promote in a variety of ways an updated or revised version of Nazism. I could ask only this question: What sources you two offered to justify this change? All references counted under are not supporting existence of "ideologies" nor there is any clue what is the exact meaning of the "updated or revised version of Nazism". Are we talking about a software application and its updates and revisions or about Neo-Nazism? The very bad thing that neither Cberlet nor Spylab are willing to answer these simple questions - rather have chosen the way of sidetracking discussion, counting and calling upon references not suporting the lead text modification, accusing others for sockpupeteering, for personal attacks, etc. I do not see any reason for continuing this 'discussion' the way Cberlet imposes. Are we discussing about the article or just about a single sentence in the lead paragraph? So, what is the purpose of asking the question What sources are appropriate for this article? ? At the end, I agree with the content of EliasAlucard response above.--Smerdyakoff (talk) 21:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC

Debate on the lead

• Sources which are not acceptable are bunch of web sources found in the first footnote . Can someone provide quotes from reliable, published sources? -- Vision Thing -- 13:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I did, but apparently those weren't acceptable by Spylab and Cberlet since they are so bent on following Misplaced Pages policy that it clouds their judgement when it comes to quality sources. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 14:19, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
    • We are following Misplaced Pages policy, EliasAlucard, while you keep insisting that since you know the correct line on neonazism, you can unilateraally dismiss cites to reputable scholarly published sources. That attitude violates basic Misplaced Pages policy. If you want to set up your own website to publish your views on neonazism, I would be happy to help you find web host.--Cberlet 17:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
      • No, you are not following Misplaced Pages policy at all. You are simply adding titles of scholarly books about Nazism/Neo-Nazism, and based on these impressive titles, you believe you can just rewrite the article into whatever you like. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Your last revision here, was one of the most ridiculous revisions I've ever seen. You really expect us to fall for that? Look, if you are going to cite, then you better make sure you cite specific passages, promoting the content you've added closely. You cannot just cite the title of a book and expect to be given the freedom to write whatever you want. This last revision is a nice and fair compromise. Take it or leave it. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

<----------Here is what Nicholas Goodrick-Clark writes:

• “This book originated as a sequal volume to The Occult Roots of Nazism in order to document the survival of occult Nazi themes in the postwar period. As work progressed, however, my perspective broadened considerably. Far from tracing faded fascist mystics and redundant ideas, I found that I was actually having to write a new history of contemporary neo-völkish groups and ideology in America and Europe.” p. 6. (emphasis added)

--Nicholas Goodrick-Clark. 2002. Black Sun: Aryan Cults, Esoteric Nazism, and the Politics of Identity. New York: NYU Press.

This is the opening of the entry on "Neo-Nazism" in the new edition of the Encyclopedia Judaica.

• "NEO-NAZISM, a general term for the related fascist, nationalist, white supremacist, antisemitic beliefs and political tendencies of the numerous groups that emerged after World War II seeking to restore the Nazi order or to establish a new order based on doctrines similar to those underlying Nazi Germany. Some of these groups closely adhered to the ideas propounded in Hitler's Mein Kampf; others espoused related beliefs deriving from older Catholic, nationalist, or other local traditions."

--Hearst, Ernest, Chip Berlet, and Jack Porter. "Neo-Nazism." Encyclopaedia Judaica. Eds. Michael Berenbaum and Fred Skolnik. Vol. 15. 2nd ed. Detroit: Macmillan Reference USA, 2007. 74-82. 22 vols. Thomson Gale.--Cberlet 23:51, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Berlet and Vysotsky:

• "Organized White Supremacist groups in the United States evolved from their historic base of various predecessor Ku Klux Klan and neo-Nazi organizations (Schmaltz 1999; Trelease 1995; Chalmers 1965). Over time, they spread into a wide range of competing forms and ideologies."

--Chip Berlet and Stanislav Vysotsky. (2006, Summer). Overview of U.S. white supremacist groups. Journal of Political and Military Sociology 34(1), 11-48. (Special Issue on the white power movement in the United States, B. A. Dobratz and L. K. Walsner).

There are a number of cites higher up on the page from Spylab documenting that Neonazism involved both movements and ideologies.--Cberlet 14:47, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• Actually a debate does not exist. What we see here is refusal to discuss the matter seriously: users Spylab and Cberlet are stubbornly repeating their claims, calling upon a list of sources not supporting the claims, and refusing to answer questions of the opposite parties in this discussion.--Smerdyakoff 15:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Mistake with first photo caption

In the caption under the first photo of the racist with the rifle, the words "rifle" and "in" are merged and form a link to the rifle article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.196.7 (talk) 22:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Neonacizam u Srbiji, BBC Serbian.com, November 11, 2005

• All unassessed articles
• Unassessed Discrimination articles
• Unknown-importance Discrimination articles
• WikiProject Discrimination articles
• Unassessed politics articles
• Unknown-importance politics articles
• WikiProject Politics articles
• B-Class LGBTQ+ studies articles
• WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies articles
• B-Class Judaism articles
• Mid-importance Judaism articles