Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 19:39, 6 December 2007

Proposed Notability Criteria

Note: This discussion was moved from Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Poker

Tally (9/4/2)

Please indicate your support or opposition to the criteria here:

Support

1. Support Balloonman (talk) 06:08, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
2. Support 2005 (talk) 08:34, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
3. Support Vicius (talk) 05:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
4. Support Alan (talk) 19:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
5. Support Horrorshowj (talk)
6. Support --Crazy4metallica (talk) 04:16, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
7. Support ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 05:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
8. Support Kymacpherson (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
9. Support AnonEMouse 16:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose I am against the concept of "inherent" notability, for two reasons: 1) I think it leads to too many articles written without, and surviving AfD without, having any substantial secondary sources, and 2) keeping track of the inherent notability criteria of each narrow field of knowledge makes it too hard to edit WP consistently (is a poker-playing writer subject to the inherent notability requirements that apply to proker players or to writers?). I think the existing, source-based criteria in WP:BIO apply fine to all people, poker players included. All that said, I don't think there will ever be a case where anyone qualifying under Baloonman's proposal would not have sources that would qualify them under WP:BIO (which I guess makes the poker-specific guideline unnecessary) UnitedStatesian (talk) 16:02, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   The criteria are really intended to help define what is NOT notable. Namely online poker players, people who have "played at the highest level of their" sport, and people who made the money in a random tournament. We set the criteria high so that the odds are there will be supporting documentation for them.Balloonman (talk) 23:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

2. Oppose I am not opposed to the idea of notability guidelines. However, the question of notability for poker players is hotly contested and debated in the poker world, and we could bring that here. One of the key reasons, for example, that I oppose the proposal above is that it heavily favors tournament notoriety over cash game success. Mainstream culture does this due to most televised poker ( in the USA being the noted exception) is tournaments. If we are going to develop these criteria, they should include criteria for cash game players (e.g., at least five documented appearances in the Big Game in Bobby's room). Also, keep in mind that the poker world news coverage is struggling hard with the problem of so many online players who have taken the live poker world by storm. There are more and more of these coming up the ranks, and the number of notable players could easily become unwieldy. Think about this: can you, as an avid poker fan, name even half of the WSoP and WPT winners? There are lot of one-hit-wonders in there. -- bkuhn 20:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   It would be impossible to define a definition for a cash game player that wouldn't be covered in entirety by WP:BIO. There simply is no standard to judge cash game players. Those who do become notable, will be covered by verifiable sources. Five documented appearances in Bobby's room doesn't make one notable. It could simply be the sign of somebody with a lot of money and no brains. Since (by definition) there are no events for cash games to gain notability, notability for cash game players rests entirely upon verifiable secondary sources. Any criterion we might try to come up with will have to be verifiable.Balloonman 05:41, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

3. Oppose. I oppose this proposal, as it tries to create a notability guideline that is less restrictive than the general notability guideline on WP:N. Inherent notability is only appropriate in the most rarest of cases. Poker players certainly don't qualify. Please also note that a straw poll on a wikiproject is not an acceptable way of proposing new guidelines. Please see Misplaced Pages:Policies and guidelines. —gorgan_almighty (talk) 17:19, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

   • Comment and Question Thanks for your input here. I don't think this was intended to be a straw poll. I think it was intended to be a discussion of a proposed notability criterion, and the people who would care about that the most would be most likely to find that discussion here on the talk page for the poker wikiproject. Also, I'm not sure I entirely understand your comments about inherent notability. Is there a link to a guideline about inherent notability you can point to here? I'm not sure I understand the comment, "Poker players certainly don't qualify" either. (It seems to me that poker players would be as likely to qualify for anything as anyone else, but that's why I'm asking if you could expand your comments.) Thanks again! Rray (talk) 20:12, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

   • Response. Several people have tried to establish guidelines for inherent notability, but they have been rejected because there is so little support for inherent notability on Misplaced Pages. But in general, geographical locations like towns/cities are inherently notable, but pretty much nothing else is. As for the way this guideline has been proposed, you should note that it is of interest to all those who develop the notability guidelines, not just those with an interest in poker. The guideline should be created in its own project page (e.g: Misplaced Pages:Notability (poker players)), it should be tagged with {{proposed}}, it should be added to Category:Misplaced Pages notability, and it should be added to the "Active proposals" section of {{IncGuide}}. —gorgan_almighty (talk) 11:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

   • I have now moved this proposal to a its own page and tagged/categorized it as required. —gorgan_almighty (talk) 12:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

   Response actually, it doesn't attempt to establish a criteria that is less restrictive, in fact, I would argue that this is more restrictive than the level most projects look at notability. In order to qualify, you would have to be one of 29 Poker Hall of Famers, one of a few hundred top tournament winners, or one of the top finalist at a final table. Think about it rationally, can you imagine anybody who fits one of the above criteria as NOT passing notability? What we are really doing is defining how we interpret the statement "played at the highest level of their sport."

1. • This proposal is in no way more restrictive. The proposal assigns inherent notability to the people who play at the highest level of poker, and allows the general notability criteria to handle the rest. But this inherent notability assigned to the top players is inherently less restrictive than the general notability guideline. There is simply no need for this special exception, as anyone who meets those criteria will be covered in plenty of secondary sources. That makes this proposed guideline nothing more than instruction creep. —gorgan_almighty (talk) 11:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

1. It is much stricter than the guidelines that sports has used which is used to imbue professional atheletes or people who play at the highest level of their sport as notable. Per that guideline, which is the one usually cited for poker players, anybody who plays at the WSOP/WPT would be notable because that is the highest level of Poker. But that is clearly not the case. Wikiproject Song guideline deems a song as notable if it "Has had a charted hit on any national music chart." The poker analog to that would be "has won any major tournament." This would open up a lot of people who have won "major" tournaments such a World Poker Open, Superbowl of Poker, Aussie Millions---or any number of other "major" tournaments. Song also read, "Has won or placed in a major music competition." We give specific criteria for our analog. Martial arts has this for schools/styles "Large number of students." Then there are the NASCAR Standards. They are good for the most part, but have some loose criteria as well.

1. • I suggest you re-read the notability sub-guidelines, as they now all specifically require the general notability guideline to be met first, in all cases. This is a recent change that has happened in the last 2 months. Also I'm not sure what sport notability guideline you are referring to. Do you mean Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)? If so, you should note that that guideline was rejected by the community, for the same reason that this one will be.—gorgan_almighty (talk) 11:19, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Also remember, the very concept of notability is a guideline. Notability is NOT a policy, we are trying to reach a consensus as to what we, as the wiki-poker playing community, deem as inherently notable achievements. If you think of the above isn't notable, I challenge you to take them to AfD. I'll even help you find some.Balloonman (talk) 22:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

2. Comment: The idea isn't really to make notability that is less restrictive but to add some standards and point out where there are exceptions per WP:BIO, for an example people who only cashed in a couple of time in the WSOP and won 1st place winning $55k in a lesser poker event, should not be viewed a reaching notability in and of itself for such as this AfD , the part about Inherent notability has nothing to do with the poker player but rather then event, you are correct that very very few people have Inherent notability such a royalty or the Children of Heads of State but that nothing to do what being talk about, if a person had no notability prior to winning the WSOP like Jerry Yang (poker player) then it's the event itself that made them notable.▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 22:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

   Comment agree with Sirex and Baloonman above, though we are still discussing specific guidelines. This is not an attempt to allow/disallow any more articles on poker players. It is an attempt to simply establish some guidelines as to who should be included in the encyclopedia and who should not. There are at least a handful of articles on poker players whose notability is questionable. This discussion is aimed at establishing some minimum thresholds of earnings/cash game winnings/tournament victories/etc. - that is all. I would not mind seeing some guidelines for poker players added to Misplaced Pages:Notability_(people)#Additional_criteria - the guidelines for porn actors are a good example. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 06:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Oppose - I agree with other Oppose votes have stated that this seems to override WP:N. From my experience on working reality TV shows, not every competitor or even every competitor that gets to the final/top rankings of a show is necessarily notable. It's perfectly acceptable to list results and persons' names, but if all you can say about them is "John Smith is a 25 year old from California that won the 2007 Poker Thingy" (even if well sourced) and cannot provide either more details about the player's poker career from secondary sources or notability from another aspect, then there shouldn't be an article about that person. If if this is stated "for poker players", it also can lead to the case of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS for other fields - why not list a state's all-star high school football team year after year? Why not every player on a top-tier college football team? There needs to be a stronger standard that "they won a tourney" to make them notable.

   I also believe the scope is way too limited to make it a WP-wide policy/guideline. We are, in fact, still determining if sub-notability guidelines should exist. I think defining, for purposes for WikiProject Poker, what makes a player notable or not as part of article guidelines or other project-specific MOS is completely acceptable. Mind you, the issues discussed about this should be taken into account, and should not just be left as "anyone that wins a tourney is notable". I just don't think you need a standalone sub-notability guideline.

2. I certainly applaud the efforts, though - the rationale that anyone with $1500 can basically become a professional poker player means that some line has to be drawn. --MASEM 14:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
3. Oppose - There is no need for any criteria beyond WP:N. If the person is noticed in a verifiable way by credible independent sources, then an article is justified. Why do we need to say more? --Kevin Murray (talk) 16:53, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Neutral for now. The above criteria is certainly a good start; however, we need to include some additional criteria to cover cash game players and authors. Based on the above, Bob Ciaffone and Matthew Hilger would not qualify. They do meet WP:BIO but we should include some cash game and author/writing criteria to avoid conflicts and arguments. Off the top of my head, we could include something like:

   • a minimum, verifiable net cash game winning threshold - $1 million?
   • regular publication in notable poker magazines
   • authorship of a major poker work

1. Also, let's start thinking about how we will go about reviewing/updating/deleting all of the individual player articles once we have agreed on a set player bio criteria. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 14:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

   Caiffone and Hilger would both qualify as you pointed out due to other criteria for BIO. In order to get that 1 million verifiable net cash game winning threshold, you would have to have published sources---thus covered in bio. Ditto the authorship/publication issue.Balloonman (talk) 05:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC) EDIT: Also, it does favor tournament players because there are established tournaments wherein winning imbues the winners with notability. Cash players will have to provide the secondary sources that they are notable---which even with the 1 million dollar threshold would still exist. Plus, is player who played in the 70's less notable because he only won 500K while a player today won a million?Balloonman (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

1. It needs to be clear that these criteria are merely allowing additional articles, not preventing anything that could be allowed under BIO. In other words these criteria do not comment at all both Ciaffone and Hilger. Both easily meet the requirement of BIO. the criteria essentially says we can make articles on old/dead folks who are in the hall of fame(s) or won a WSOP prior to the Internet. The only addition is saying anyone who makes the final table of the WSOP now (and makes a million in one event) can have an article -- but that latter thing could be removed simply because the chances are every player making the final table will have some hometown paper writing about them that would meet BIO.

   Put another way, poker players are not athletes as defined by BIO. If poker players meet the first/general part of the BIO, they can have articles, but the old guys have a leg up. For example, Little Man Popwell is widely mentioned as the best poker player of the pre-World War II era. He is in the Hall of fame, and that "best" fact is mentioned a lot online, but there are few articles that focus directly on him online, so from strictly a BIO perspective he would be marginal, but if hundreds of sites exist with one line saying he was the best, and he is in the hall of fame, I think we can put up a darn stub about him.

   On the secondary thing, I've looked at all the stubs and there are almost none that might deserve to be afd'ed -- unless someone would take the position that ones like the Popwell one should be deleted, which I'd consider silly. 2005 (talk) 09:18, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   I'd say that George Danzer merits an AFD, as would Doug Lee (poker player). Most of the stub articles on players are fine, but there are a handful that should be sent to the trash heap. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 07:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   George Danzer I would agree with, on the other hand Doug Lee came in 1st place, winning a ring in the 2005 $10,000 WSOP Circuit Championship which was televised on ESPN, I still remember that one well it had Jennifer Harman and Jean-Robert Bellande which made him famous for coming in 3rd before the whole Survivor-China bit. favorite part was when Harmen who wasn't in the hand said to Bellande and Lee something like you are going to bet you are going raise you are going fold "I predict the future!" and that's what happen :) ▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 08:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   I think both of them could go... a circuit event is not notable... even if it did include Harman and the guy from Survivor. But if we took them there, we would have to explain how their playing in a tournament wasn't equivalent to the athletes "playing at the highest amateur level."Balloonman (talk) 09:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   Danzer should go, but Lee writes for Canadian Poker Player magazine, and has at least several articles about him, so perhaps he could stay. Somebody could check him out further and see what can be found. 2005 (talk) 09:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   I propose that we table this for now and come back to it later. Once we come to some sort of agreement for notability criteria then I will start a new discussion and list of player articles that should be reviewed. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 17:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   I assume that you are referring to tabling these two particular stubs? If so I agree. I think we should get the Poker Notability Criteria established, that would give any AFD more weight and help set standards for what we believe is important.Balloonman (talk) 17:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

   Sounds good. I went ahead and AFDed the Danzer article. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 05:30, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

2. Neutral The guidelines are a good idea, however I see some flaws. First, the million dollars is irrelevant and should be removed. Dollars are fleeting and are silly guideline, either as an automatic qualifier or an exclusion. Also, the WSOP, EPT, and WPT isn't the be all and end all. Players who get national TV time on WSOP, EPT, WPT, USPC, HPT and other (inter)nationally aired final tables for years (and years) should be notables (Example: Steve Carter (poker player)). The Steve Carter information may be incomplete but it's interesting encyclopedic information. Outside of those, how do you quantify who can stand the test of time (year after year)? The Hall of Fame, yes. A Million Dollars? No. Online Poker? Few online poker players permanently are notable without first playing live and getting subsequent media time and recognized by people who don't spend their life in front of a computer. HOWEVER, some potential sources could be magazine online players of the year from Bluff or CardPlayer or some other mass-distributed poker rag. Just my mumbles. Hope they're relevant. Herb Riede 08:40, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

   The Steve carter article isn't the slighest bit notable. Since it wasn't stubbed I didn't notice it before. It obviously deserves an AFD, so I'm putting it up now. (One minor finish in a casino tournament and some home games! LOL) 2005 10:16, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

   Appearing on TV is not necessarily notable. I mean, you have the heartland poker tournament that airs on TV. Plus, it becomes impossible to verify who made it to a televised show. The million dollars in a single event is notable. There are very few people who have won a million dollars without it being aired on TV or being a major event to begin with. PLus, it kind of becomes our threshold of what does it mean to "play at the highest level."Balloonman 19:23, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment

1. Comment. Balloonman's recent addition to the rationale is very important. The article criteria for athletes is far more generous than this is, so making it a lot stricter is just a no go from the Project perspective. Poker is now a much greater cultural phenomenon than many sports, though not on the level of baseball or basketball. We aren't going to make criteria to ghettoize poker players. They aren't less human than a hockey player. We are just trying to recognize that mere participation in a tournament or a high stakes ring game is not enough to merit an article, whereas playing a few hockey games is. Winning a WSOP event in 1975 merits a free pass; winning a few online tournaments this week does not. 2005 (talk) 23:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

   Agree 100% ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 07:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

1. Comment. The notability of cash game/internet players is a difficult situation, big tournament players are easy, aside being minor celebrities their winnings are tracked better, the problem with cash games is a rich doctor could win 1.2 million over a coarse of a week getting very lucky on cold decked hands against their more skilled opponents (set over set, quads over fullhouses, flush over flush or bad call draw outs), five weeks later the rich doctor is down 3 million and never plays again and only mention in passing or never talked about at all, other cash game players may win 3 million over the coarse of 4 years that they made by hopping to casino to casino playings $50/100 and with no one really knowing anything about them, which is the reason we don't see article on cash game only player or Internet players like (Tom Dwan / Durrrr) (Phil Galfond / OMGClayAiken (even though he was in an couple of episodes of GSN's HSP) etc. as a matter of fact, I don't think there are any cash game/internet only players that have articles, even great live cash game players like Kenny Tran didn't get an article until after his 2007 WSOP performance in both the ME and $50,000 HORSE, or internet tournament players like BeL0WaB0Ve until the WPT victory or the great JohnnyBax until after he got a WSOP bracelet.▪◦▪≡ЅiREX≡ 05:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
2. Comment. I don't see any need to add an inclusion policy for cash game players. Suppose a day trader made a million dollars in a week, that wouldn't justify a wikipedia article. Lots of people in other walks of life are good at their jobs too. I see a distinction between tournaments which are promoted as spectator events vs playing in private purely for the sake of personal income. Although I could see making a case for players that appear repeatedly in televised cash games, but that would probably satisfy existing notability requirements without adding any special cash game clause to the poker requirements. —Kymacpherson (talk) 23:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do cash game players get no love? The games usually aren't televised, but chess matches are usually not televised either. ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 04:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

True neither are usually televised however other than a World Champion,whose matches are heavily reported, and an occasional grandmaster chess players aren't usually held to be notable. I have to feel the same is true of cash game players, they either make significant coverage or they don't. Cash games aren't held in the public eye to the degree that tournaments are. Horrorshowj (talk) 07:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• Votes are bad. Remember, biographies must be comprehensive. Can you tell me where the person was born? Where and when they were married, and to whom? How many children they have, and their names? If not, the writing of a biography is unacceptable. Mention them in the event article. This is probably true in the vast majority of cases. It comes down to sourcing, inherent notability is inherently nonexistent. The sources are there or they aren't. Seraphimblade 08:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Except on the most semantic level that's not true, or at least not helpful. The BIO guideline is clear. If someone has played in a professional sports league such a person is generally notable, even if it does not guarantee an article. This text should merely be of similar weight as the athletes or porn actors text. We aren't going to have poker players ghettoized, but similarly we are looking to fall under the general statements in the BIO guideline. As for born and married, that's all usually irrelevant. We are an encyclopedia, not a birth registry. We are here to deal with people's notability. Somebody who won a WSOP event in 1975 is notable for that, not when he was born or the names of his kids. That is fine detail to have, but it's not at all important. 2005 (talk) 09:52, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
    • You've used ghettoized twice now. but I'm not sure of what you mean by that.Balloonman (talk) 17:53, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
      • Restricted to a lesser area... looked on by outsiders with disrepute... something like that. I guess I should have just said something about "second class citizens" or something like that. The slang got the best of me... 2005 (talk) 01:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
  • It also isn't true. The winner of a WSOP bracelet, is notable by nature of having won a bracelet. His/her name will forever be listed as a bracelet winner. If he/she participates in a tournament 30 years down the road, his victory from 30 years ago will still be mentioned---even if he does nothing in the meantime. What we've done above is set the criteria high enough that we aren't giving out notability for non-notable events. As for who the person married and names of children. If we have it great, but biographies often do not have those details. Lacking information is not a reason not to start an article---also known as a stub.Balloonman (talk) 18:04, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Exactly what policy do you think stubs are a violation of? Horrorshowj (talk) 07:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
  • There is also something to be said for comprehensiveness. We know relatively little about the 2nd through 10th Popes, but we still have individual articles about them, even though they will always be lavishly illustrated stubs. Stubs are OK. Most 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica articles would be considered stubs in our ratings, that doesn't make them somehow not encyclopedic. --AnonEMouse 16:39, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
    • Most 1911 Enclclopedia Britannica articles would be slapped with so many tags NPOV, V, Disputed, fact, etc that it wouldn't even be funny!Balloonman 23:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Marking as rejected

Per the talk page on WP:N, I am marking this proposal as rejected: not because it is not useful to the WikiProject from whence it came, but because it has almost no usefulness outside of that project. We do not turn the results of every project discussion into a WP-wide guideline. Based on my read of this page I don't think it was ever the intent of the framers and supporters to do so either. UnitedStatesian (talk) 18:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm unclear as to what is going on here. We are trying to establish some guidelines for inclusion of poker players. What is the correct procedure, or is there even one established? As best I can see, the participants in WP:POKER were discussing some thresholds for article inclusion, never intending to supercede WP:N. User:Balloonman and User:Rray requested some comments from the folks at the WP:N discussion page - now we are being told that the "proposal" is "rejected" - huh? I'm not sure what we should be doing differently. Can you explain what we should have done differently?

I recall that there was once a guideline for porn actors, WP:PORNBIO. It nas how been mreged into Misplaced Pages:Notability (people):

• Pornographic actor:
  • Has won or been a serious nominee for a well-known award, such as those listed in Category:Adult movie awards or Category:Film awards or from a major pornographic magazine, such as Penthouse, Playboy, or Playgirl, as well as their counterparts in other pornography genres.
  • Has made unique contributions to a specific pornographic genre, such as beginning a trend in pornography, or starring in an iconic, groundbreaking or blockbuster feature.
  • Has been featured multiple times in mainstream media.

Could we not do something similar for poker players? ♣♦ SmartGuy ♥♠ 18:45, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No one is saying you can't make a guideline for poker players. But as your proposed Poker player guidelines falls strictly in the bounds of WP:POKER (there is no Poker player that should not be listed under that project), there is no need to create a Misplaced Pages-wide guideline for it. Create it as a subpage of WP:POKER (say WP:POKER/Notability, abbreviated to WP:POKER/N) for this, and makes sure your project is aware of it. You can still ask WP:N for help to refine the guideline within the project. --MASEM 19:02, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

SmartGuy, if you can demonstrate that there is sufficient need for special rules on poker players, or a broader group, where BIO or N does not cover, then I think that a special section at BIO my be appropriate. I'm glad to work with you on that. --Kevin Murray (talk) 19:39, 6 December 2007 (UTC)