Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:04, 7 December 2007

Chicago Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chicago, which aims to improve all articles or pages related to Chicago or the Chicago metropolitan area.ChicagoWikipedia:WikiProject ChicagoTemplate:WikiProject ChicagoChicago ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Arts and Entertainment Start‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the arts and entertainment work group.

• Talk:Gary Weiss/Archive 1
• Talk:Gary Weiss/Archive 2

Interesting Story on Slashdot about this article... http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/12/07/1434221.shtml Maria-mesh (talk) 17:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Archived

This is a complete mess. Seems to me the original call for the link to Overstock came from Piperdown, a blatant meatpuppet of Bagley, and it's virtually impossible to purge the dead hand of Bagley from the ill-tempered and serially WP:BLP violating debate on this page. So it's time to start again. And the rules are:

• WP:BLP
• WP:NPA
• WP:HARASS
• WP:NPOV
• WP:V
• WP:RS.

If anyone wants to bring a reliable source that discusses, in properly analytical terms, some additional content we can use for this article, they are most welcome. Blogs, opinion pieces and tittle-tattle on the web are not reliable or significant enough to overcome concerns, since we know Mr Weiss has been actively harassed in real life. Individuals active on websites where Bagley is active are recommended in the strongest possible terms to leave well alone, since an extremely dim view will be taken of any suspicion of editing by proxy on his behalf.

And one final thing: this is absolutely not the place to rehash arguments taking place elsewhere. If you can document them by reference to properly analytical debate by independent authorities in reliable sources, then we can talk, but what has gone on here in the past is not good enough. Guy (Help!) 17:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Guy, I wonder if your archiving was a good call here. Aside from a few snide remarks ("stop blowing smoke out your ass") and fanciful insinuations (i.e. that Cla68 was a Bagley representative) the debate was fairly productive, policy-focused (NPF, BLP, UNDUE), and forward-looking, and there seemed to be no (Bagley) meatpuppets in sight.--G-Dett 18:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's the "apart from" that was the problem. Feel free to resume the debate without the bits that require "apart from". Guy (Help!) 19:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It was absolutely the right call. And my sysop tools are ready and waiting to enforce the list he provided. Proceed with legitimate references and encyclopedic discussion, or not at all. Durova 20:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, Durova. I will briefly point out that (a) Cla68's initial RfC two days ago was serious and manifestly in good faith; (b) the personal attacks (implying that Cla68 was a Bagley representative, etc.) began with the first poster but had petered out by yesterday morning; (c) the discussion section at the time of archiving ("Replies to RfC") was productive, policy-oriented, and free of personal attacks. With respect, the time for the RESET button (or other sysop intervention) was after the first posted response to Cla68's RfC two days ago, not during the constructive discussion two hours ago.--G-Dett 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Full support

Durova and Guy have my full support here. No nonsense, zero tolerance, shoot on sight. No kidding, this has gone on long enough.--Jimbo Wales 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Most of us usually try to give some reasoning for any action, proposed action, or threatened action that we discuss on an article's talk page. Would you mind doing the same? Cla68 21:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

All right, you are subject to a 24 hour block for violation of WP:POINT. The reason is that this page exists for encyclopedic collaboration, not drama. Durova 21:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

While I think the block may have been a tad excessive, I did say zero tolerance and shoot on sight. Cla68, I fear that you have been manipulated by lying stalkers and trolls, and I am happy to talk to you about it privately, but I am sick of the drama around this issue on this page, and it absolutely has to come to an end. I recommend that Durova (no one else! no wheel wars please!) reduce the block as a gesture of good faith, but if Durova wants you to sit out the 24 hours, I will respect that as well. I support all reasonable efforts to clarify that the support for trolls and stalkers needs to stop.--Jimbo Wales 01:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments and remedy and I'll respond more on your talk page. Cla68 09:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Register story

I have protected this article for a short time due to a train of questionable edits over the last 24 hours. Aside from the Register story being straight from the Judd Bagley press pack, it is of no evident reliability, and the accompanying weasel words certainly don't improve it. The Register is reaosnably reliable for matters technical but is quite clearly pursuing a tabloid agenda here. Guy (Help!) 14:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello JzG, I had recently read a few articles on the Weiss controversy and, as you can see, was making an attempt to remove any bias from the article and explain the situation objectively. I don't see how that could cause the lockdown of the article. Considering this controversy is written about far beyond The Register, it meets notability and verification guidelines. Joshdboz (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no "Weiss controversy." There is a widely publicized Overstock.com smear campaign against critics, which is dealt with in the Overstock.com article itself where it belongs. It had been previously discussed and determined (see earlier discussion and archives) that this kind of rubbish has no place in this article under BLP, specifically WP:NPF. That is separate and apart, and cumulative, with the RS issue on The Register as a source for BLPs.--Samiharris (talk) 14:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything mutually exclusive between including similar information on two Misplaced Pages articles, especially if we have NYT articles writing about this. To ignore it would be almost as much POV pushing as some of the earlier edits that were reverted. Proposed section:

Naked Short Selling Dispute

Weiss has been a sharp critic of Overstock.com CEO Patrick M. Byrne and his opposition to short selling, which led to the creation of an originally anonymous and critical website of Weiss, later reported to be run by Overstock.com's director for social media, Judd Bagely. Weiss has been accused by Bagely of making biased edits to the Misplaced Pages entries on Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and himself, but Weiss has denied ever doing so. Joshdboz (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you said that already. Repetition is not the mother of invention. --Samiharris (talk) 15:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The sources for this are a PDF of Bagley's hate site and a Register story which parrots Bagley's nonsense. Both are clearly polemical and motivated by spite. Neither is a reliable source for a biography article. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a decision that should be made through a consensus on this talk page, but regardless, the NYT deserves citing. Smiharris, I am sorry if my repetition bothered you, I am just trying to find a solution to this. Frankly, I have never heard of any of these people before today. Please do not belittle a good faith attempt. Joshdboz (talk) 15:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What I was trying to convey, and will repeat, is that the issues you raise have been discussed lengthily and disposed of on at least three prior occasions, and that your addition was against talk page consensus (even if you include previous Bagley socks) and BLP.--Samiharris (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I have done a quick read through the major arguments in the archived pages. But after citing the NYT in hundreds of articles myself, I fail to see how this one should be any different. Weiss has notability in part because of his criticism of such and such persons - witness all the discussion that this has provoked here. And it so happens that the NYT reports this. I fail to comprehened that after all that archived talk, no compromise sentence or two were found. Joshdboz (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• You're missing the point. We are not here to help Bagley spread his meme. Guy (Help!) 15:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Bagely, I'm talking about Weiss's criticism of Byrne and others. Joshdboz (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Which brings you back to Bagley. Enough already. Asked and answered a thousand times.--Samiharris (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This article should be tagged with ADV tag, since it does read like auto biography. Register does make a fair point. There is no reason for the senior editors to protect Gary. TwakTwik (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the Register does not make a fair point, it parrots Bagley's idiocy uncritically. Guy (Help!) 16:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah? show me a sentence in the article that references any criticism of Gary?. Please don't tell me he is perfect. It currently reads like Misplaced Pages is bowing and bending over for Gary. Even Rudy Giulliani has a controversies section. TwakTwik (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, this situation is just a joke. I have never encountered another article where pieces of relevant and factual information (Weiss's criticism of Byrne and the reaction) are excluded without a search for a compromise. And personal attacks from Wikipedians against the persons in question, regardless of who they are or what they've done, are really uncalled for - sorry I bothered trying to help. Joshdboz (talk) 17:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess you haven't edited too many BLPs. WP:BLP deals explicitly with these kinds of situations, and the rule is that you must be careful to include material that is relevant to a subject's notability when he or she is not generally known. The presence of a sustained corporate smear campaign, such as inspired and repeated in the Register article, underlines the need to enforce BLP strictly, and it is the reason administrators and even Jimbo have had to intervene multiple times. We have this discussion every time Judd Bagley belches, and it is becoming a bit tiresome.--Samiharris (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If you look at my user page you can see that have started dozens of article's on living people, including some that could be quite controversial (see Michael Harari for one). However, it is clear that Weiss's dispute with Byrne is notable and verifiable, not just from the NYT's article, but from others, including this WSJ blog that described Weiss as "persistent critic of Overstock and its CEO Patrick Byrne." Google "gary weiss" "patrick byrne" and you get 8,540 results. That's much more than the subject of many Misplaced Pages articles even get. I have no desire or intention to "smear" Weiss, just objectively explain a very public and apparently very notable dispute that involves him intimately. Joshdboz (talk) 17:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm here for the first time, but Guy, reading all this you seem to have a very personal involvement. I don't know/care who Bagley is, but I certainly know the New York Times and The Register, and they should certainly be mentioned. Far be it for any of us to judge their editorial content or sources; that is better left to the reader. Maybe its time to recuse yourself? To my eyes, I'm sorry, but you don't seem impartial. Kwandar (talk) 17:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Final comment on this topic from me. I fully understand that most of us here are guests at Misplaced Pages. It is controlled by Jimmy Wales and only those people he trusts. Sorry that I tried to make Misplaced Pages better by asking for balance. I realize its your home and you guys make the rules, and as guests we just need to obey the house rules. Thats it for me on this controversy. Happy holidays. TwakTwik (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I read the Register article linked from Slashdot. I came here to see what they were talking about, and I was extremely disappointed to see that this article has been full administrator-only locked. Whatever happened to the ideals of the wisdom of crowds? It makes me think that there is indeed "something wrong with the way the project... is administered" or why would the administrators be trying to clamp down on edits from people trying to mention this newsworthy controversy? I've lost some faith in Misplaced Pages today. SamLL (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That is precisely the point. You came to this article because of an article inspired by Judd Bagley, Director of Communications of Overstock.com, who has waged an on- and off-wiki campaign to influence this and other articles. That campaign has some marginal notability and is dealt with in a subbsection of Overstock.com. He is paid for the purpose of getting people like you to come to this and other articles and become disappointed, or upset, or whatever. One aspect of his jihad is to undermine and vandalize Misplaced Pages. That is why this subject periodically rears its ugly head, and it is why administrators have had to clamp down on this article a number of times.--Samiharris (talk) 18:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've had similar run-ins with accusatory editors, and have similarly lost faith. I think the only way to ensure that Fair and Balanced is a reality is to keep your purse strings tied together during the current fundraising endeavor; I know I will. Mangler (talk) 17:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I would hope that Misplaced Pages is never "Fair and Balanced™", at least not in the Faux News sense. And that, of course, is the problem here: Bagley is a vicious hatemonger whose approach to anything other than uncritical adoration is reliably to harass and attack. He's finally found someone as mad as he is in Cade; the two of them make a perfect couple. Guy (Help!) 18:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Mitchell, Dan. "Flames Flare Over Naked Shorts", The New York Times, January 20, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
2. Metz, Cade. "Misplaced Pages black helicopters circle Utah's Traverse Mountain", The Register, December 6, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.

• Unassessed Chicago articles
• Unknown-importance Chicago articles
• WikiProject Chicago articles
• Start-Class biography articles
• Start-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Unknown-importance biography (arts and entertainment) articles
• Arts and entertainment work group articles
• WikiProject Biography articles