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Archives

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Archived

This is a complete mess. Seems to me the original call for the link to Overstock came from Piperdown, a blatant meatpuppet of Bagley, and it's virtually impossible to purge the dead hand of Bagley from the ill-tempered and serially WP:BLP violating debate on this page. So it's time to start again. And the rules are:

• WP:BLP
• WP:NPA
• WP:HARASS
• WP:NPOV
• WP:V
• WP:RS.

If anyone wants to bring a reliable source that discusses, in properly analytical terms, some additional content we can use for this article, they are most welcome. Blogs, opinion pieces and tittle-tattle on the web are not reliable or significant enough to overcome concerns, since we know Mr Weiss has been actively harassed in real life. Individuals active on websites where Bagley is active are recommended in the strongest possible terms to leave well alone, since an extremely dim view will be taken of any suspicion of editing by proxy on his behalf.

And one final thing: this is absolutely not the place to rehash arguments taking place elsewhere. If you can document them by reference to properly analytical debate by independent authorities in reliable sources, then we can talk, but what has gone on here in the past is not good enough. Guy (Help!) 17:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Guy, I wonder if your archiving was a good call here. Aside from a few snide remarks ("stop blowing smoke out your ass") and fanciful insinuations (i.e. that Cla68 was a Bagley representative) the debate was fairly productive, policy-focused (NPF, BLP, UNDUE), and forward-looking, and there seemed to be no (Bagley) meatpuppets in sight.--G-Dett 18:05, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It's the "apart from" that was the problem. Feel free to resume the debate without the bits that require "apart from". Guy (Help!) 19:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

It was absolutely the right call. And my sysop tools are ready and waiting to enforce the list he provided. Proceed with legitimate references and encyclopedic discussion, or not at all. Durova 20:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, Durova. I will briefly point out that (a) Cla68's initial RfC two days ago was serious and manifestly in good faith; (b) the personal attacks (implying that Cla68 was a Bagley representative, etc.) began with the first poster but had petered out by yesterday morning; (c) the discussion section at the time of archiving ("Replies to RfC") was productive, policy-oriented, and free of personal attacks. With respect, the time for the RESET button (or other sysop intervention) was after the first posted response to Cla68's RfC two days ago, not during the constructive discussion two hours ago.--G-Dett 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Full support

Durova and Guy have my full support here. No nonsense, zero tolerance, shoot on sight. No kidding, this has gone on long enough.--Jimbo Wales 21:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Most of us usually try to give some reasoning for any action, proposed action, or threatened action that we discuss on an article's talk page. Would you mind doing the same? Cla68 21:17, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

All right, you are subject to a 24 hour block for violation of WP:POINT. The reason is that this page exists for encyclopedic collaboration, not drama. Durova 21:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

While I think the block may have been a tad excessive, I did say zero tolerance and shoot on sight. Cla68, I fear that you have been manipulated by lying stalkers and trolls, and I am happy to talk to you about it privately, but I am sick of the drama around this issue on this page, and it absolutely has to come to an end. I recommend that Durova (no one else! no wheel wars please!) reduce the block as a gesture of good faith, but if Durova wants you to sit out the 24 hours, I will respect that as well. I support all reasonable efforts to clarify that the support for trolls and stalkers needs to stop.--Jimbo Wales 01:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your comments and remedy and I'll respond more on your talk page. Cla68 09:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong, Jimbo. A conversation ends when all the evidence is presented and people are convinced. It does not end because a godhead says it does. When you yell "stalker" while obscuring the discussion you appear no different from Bush yelling "terrorist" while asserting executive privilege (eep, shades of Godwin's law!). I am just a casual contributor to wikipedia but I have noticed increasingly that every time I make a slightly controvertial edit, I am subjected to threats. You step on someone's pet project and suddenly they're telling you how many administrators they personally know and how quickly you'll be banned if you don't drop the issue immediately. That is not a conversation about the facts, it is an Appeal to authority. It didn't used to be this way. When the recent drama unfolded with Durova, I speculated that the formation of a "cabal" was responsible for this increase. Now that I have seen the words "shoot on sight," all doubt is removed. Those of us coming out of the woodwork because we are offended at this threatening tendency are not sockpuppets. By responding in a reactionary manner, you are causing even uninvolved parties to exhibit the behavior that you attribute to sock puppets. Bagley's probably a nutcase, but "shoot on sight" just proves his point. You simply cannot build an open encyclopedia based on the appeal to authority. It is vital that we retain the ability to accept content from anonymous users based on the quality of the content rather than the perceived separation between the contributor and the administration, and that is at risk when this is the example that you set for the other administrators. Galexander (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Register story

I have protected this article for a short time due to a train of questionable edits over the last 24 hours. Aside from the Register story being straight from the Judd Bagley press pack, it is of no evident reliability, and the accompanying weasel words certainly don't improve it. The Register is reaosnably reliable for matters technical but is quite clearly pursuing a tabloid agenda here. Guy (Help!) 14:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello JzG, I had recently read a few articles on the Weiss controversy and, as you can see, was making an attempt to remove any bias from the article and explain the situation objectively. I don't see how that could cause the lockdown of the article. Considering this controversy is written about far beyond The Register, it meets notability and verification guidelines. Joshdboz (talk) 14:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no "Weiss controversy." There is a widely publicized Overstock.com smear campaign against critics, which is dealt with in the Overstock.com article itself where it belongs. It had been previously discussed and determined (see earlier discussion and archives) that this kind of rubbish has no place in this article under BLP, specifically WP:NPF. That is separate and apart, and cumulative, with the RS issue on The Register as a source for BLPs.--Samiharris (talk) 14:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything mutually exclusive between including similar information on two Misplaced Pages articles, especially if we have NYT articles writing about this. To ignore it would be almost as much POV pushing as some of the earlier edits that were reverted. Proposed section:

Naked Short Selling Dispute

Weiss has been a sharp critic of Overstock.com CEO Patrick M. Byrne and his opposition to short selling, which led to the creation of an originally anonymous and critical website of Weiss, later reported to be run by Overstock.com's director for social media, Judd Bagely. Weiss has been accused by Bagely of making biased edits to the Misplaced Pages entries on Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and himself, but Weiss has denied ever doing so. Joshdboz (talk) 14:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you said that already. Repetition is not the mother of invention. --Samiharris (talk) 15:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. The sources for this are a PDF of Bagley's hate site and a Register story which parrots Bagley's nonsense. Both are clearly polemical and motivated by spite. Neither is a reliable source for a biography article. Guy (Help!) 15:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That is a decision that should be made through a consensus on this talk page, but regardless, the NYT deserves citing. Smiharris, I am sorry if my repetition bothered you, I am just trying to find a solution to this. Frankly, I have never heard of any of these people before today. Please do not belittle a good faith attempt. Joshdboz (talk) 15:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

What I was trying to convey, and will repeat, is that the issues you raise have been discussed lengthily and disposed of on at least three prior occasions, and that your addition was against talk page consensus (even if you include previous Bagley socks) and BLP.--Samiharris (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I have done a quick read through the major arguments in the archived pages. But after citing the NYT in hundreds of articles myself, I fail to see how this one should be any different. Weiss has notability in part because of his criticism of such and such persons - witness all the discussion that this has provoked here. And it so happens that the NYT reports this. I fail to comprehened that after all that archived talk, no compromise sentence or two were found. Joshdboz (talk) 15:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• You're missing the point. We are not here to help Bagley spread his meme. Guy (Help!) 15:39, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not talking about Bagely, I'm talking about Weiss's criticism of Byrne and others. Joshdboz (talk) 15:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Which brings you back to Bagley. Enough already. Asked and answered a thousand times.--Samiharris (talk) 15:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This article should be tagged with ADV tag, since it does read like auto biography. Register does make a fair point. There is no reason for the senior editors to protect Gary. TwakTwik (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No, the Register does not make a fair point, it parrots Bagley's idiocy uncritically. Guy (Help!) 16:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah? show me a sentence in the article that references any criticism of Gary?. Please don't tell me he is perfect. It currently reads like Misplaced Pages is bowing and bending over for Gary. Even Rudy Giulliani has a controversies section. TwakTwik (talk) 17:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, this situation is just a joke. I have never encountered another article where pieces of relevant and factual information (Weiss's criticism of Byrne and the reaction) are excluded without a search for a compromise. And personal attacks from Wikipedians against the persons in question, regardless of who they are or what they've done, are really uncalled for - sorry I bothered trying to help. Joshdboz (talk) 17:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess you haven't edited too many BLPs. WP:BLP deals explicitly with these kinds of situations, and the rule is that you must be careful to include material that is relevant to a subject's notability when he or she is not generally known. The presence of a sustained corporate smear campaign, such as inspired and repeated in the Register article, underlines the need to enforce BLP strictly, and it is the reason administrators and even Jimbo have had to intervene multiple times. We have this discussion every time Judd Bagley belches, and it is becoming a bit tiresome.--Samiharris (talk) 17:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

If you look at my user page you can see that have started dozens of article's on living people, including some that could be quite controversial (see Michael Harari for one). However, it is clear that Weiss's dispute with Byrne is notable and verifiable, not just from the NYT's article, but from others, including this WSJ blog that described Weiss as "persistent critic of Overstock and its CEO Patrick Byrne." Google "gary weiss" "patrick byrne" and you get 8,540 results. That's much more than the subject of many Misplaced Pages articles even get. I have no desire or intention to "smear" Weiss, just objectively explain a very public and apparently very notable dispute that involves him intimately. Joshdboz (talk) 17:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm here for the first time, but Guy, reading all this you seem to have a very personal involvement. I don't know/care who Bagley is, but I certainly know the New York Times and The Register, and they should certainly be mentioned. Far be it for any of us to judge their editorial content or sources; that is better left to the reader. Maybe its time to recuse yourself? To my eyes, I'm sorry, but you don't seem impartial. Kwandar (talk) 17:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Final comment on this topic from me. I fully understand that most of us here are guests at Misplaced Pages. It is controlled by Jimmy Wales and only those people he trusts. Sorry that I tried to make Misplaced Pages better by asking for balance. I realize its your home and you guys make the rules, and as guests we just need to obey the house rules. Thats it for me on this controversy. Happy holidays. TwakTwik (talk) 17:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I read the Register article linked from Slashdot. I came here to see what they were talking about, and I was extremely disappointed to see that this article has been full administrator-only locked. Whatever happened to the ideals of the wisdom of crowds? It makes me think that there is indeed "something wrong with the way the project... is administered" or why would the administrators be trying to clamp down on edits from people trying to mention this newsworthy controversy? I've lost some faith in Misplaced Pages today. SamLL (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That is precisely the point. You came to this article because of an article inspired by Judd Bagley, Director of Communications of Overstock.com, who has waged an on- and off-wiki campaign to influence this and other articles. That campaign has some marginal notability and is dealt with in a subbsection of Overstock.com. He is paid for the purpose of getting people like you to come to this and other articles and become disappointed, or upset, or whatever. One aspect of his jihad is to undermine and vandalize Misplaced Pages. That is why this subject periodically rears its ugly head, and it is why administrators have had to clamp down on this article a number of times.--Samiharris (talk) 18:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've had similar run-ins with accusatory editors, and have similarly lost faith. I think the only way to ensure that Fair and Balanced is a reality is to keep your purse strings tied together during the current fundraising endeavor; I know I will. Mangler (talk) 17:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I would hope that Misplaced Pages is never "Fair and Balanced™", at least not in the Faux News sense. And that, of course, is the problem here: Bagley is a vicious hatemonger whose approach to anything other than uncritical adoration is reliably to harass and attack. He's finally found someone as mad as he is in Cade; the two of them make a perfect couple. Guy (Help!) 18:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you completely forget about Bagley for one moment. Weiss is a well reported critic of Patrick Byrne, and it has been reported in many places as such. That should at the very least be included. Then, one can determine whether the reaction to Weiss's criticsims, which has also been reported, is a notable and verifiable enough event to be included. Joshdboz (talk) 18:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. There's a faction that is determined to keep changing the subject to "Bagley is Evil!" every time the subject of this article's bias comes up. That's beside the point. If Osama bin Laden were to announce that 2+2=4, would everybody have to suppress this fact so as to not give even the appearance of agreeing with an evildoer? *Dan T.* (talk) 18:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't see that your quoted remark was anywhere in the Overstock.com article. If you feel that that article is POV, then I suggest you work on it to try and make it less POV.--MONGO (talk) 18:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy, would you care to quote your sources for stating that "Bagley is a vicious hatemonger"? ;) Seriously, the language is so strong that even if I were inclined to believe you (if I even cared) I wouldn't. One of the key ideas behind Misplaced Pages was to present a neutral viewpoint, and yet you don't want "fair and balanced"? You don't even want to quote other reputable news sources (if not The Register, certainly the New York Times)? Joshdboz is right on all counts. I'm not sure I want to stop contributing, but this is certainly making me question Misplaced Pages.Kwandar (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Template:Support - Guy, Samiharris, Your views on this discussion seem biased. I dont care who Bagley is, but it is critical to ensure that this article maintains neutrality, and include criticisms as well. Please dont quote Bagley for the reply. Simynazareth (talk) 18:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

And it makes no sense that Guy has removed portions with reference to NyTimes (see the last edits by Joshboz) with a vague reference to {{WP:BLP}}. Guy seems to have got this thing completely wrong. Request some one (administrators) to unblock the article, and to revert last edits. This is really hurting credibility of wikipedia. 19:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC) Simynazareth (talk) 19:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I listed such a request at WP:RFP. will381796 (talk) 19:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The "vague reference to BLP" alludes to the extensive and long ago resolved discussions that took place on these identical issues in October, drawing such heat and troublemaking that Jimbo intervened. Why? Because this article is under attack from the official spokesman of Overstock.com, who will stop at nothing in his vicious campaign of villification against the subject of this article and others. Guy is under no obligation to recite for you the long history of vandalism and stalking that has plagued this article for months. It is evident in the talk page history and the archives. --Samiharris (talk) 19:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Samiharris, I've gone through the archives, and the feeling I get it is your views on this, and to keep NYT artcle away from this article is biased. You are quoting Bagley, Overstock.com etc for keeping any criticism about Gary Weiss - which is counter productive. Valid criticism from reputed sources is not vilification, and if BLP of someone does not have an iota of criticism in the article, there is something seriously wrong in the article. Any sorry to say that, from the archives, you seem to be one of those who are responsible for not including any criticism in this article. (this is not a personal attack) Simynazareth (talk) 02:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely understand where you're coming from Samiharris, and I'm sorry I wasn't aware of this issue a while ago, but the actions of one rogue editor in the past have absolutely nothing to do with the information that should or should not be included in this article today. And if someone adds information in a biased way, it should be amended (as I was attempting to do this morning). Joshdboz (talk) 19:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As a neutral observer, I will admit that it is disappointing to see the results of The Register's article here. I understand the need to be careful with biographies of living people, but I completely fail to see how this means there shouldn't be any mention of the issue at all. I find it very difficult to believe that this controversy can't be mentioned in a neutral manner. Regardless of what merit individual people may feel with it, it is noteworthy. You point out the number of people that have come to this article specifically because of The Register article. Correct. Now think about the number of people that will believe everything in that article because they see a pretty-much universally positive article about Gary Weiss without any option to make an edit. The refusal of a few people to make any edits to this article will undermine the credibility of Misplaced Pages a lot more than some brief mention of the controversy IMO. -Kraw Night (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The short answer is no, a tabloid website article regurgitating ancient smears is insufficient to override BLP. Since the BLP issues have been fully discussed in the past, you may want to review the archives.--Samiharris (talk) 20:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I dunno. "The views of critics should be represented if they are relevant to the subject's notability..." seems to fit well here, but this isn't my point. I don't really care about Weiss or Bryne. However, it is worth examining how this standpoint is affecting Misplaced Pages's credibility. People read the article, come here, and see that they can't make edits. Then they also see that two people on opposite sides of debate have two very different pages, one being mostly positive, one offering a lot of negatives. If there can be negative comments on one page, by the same logic, they can apply to the other I would feel. Otherwise this just seems to breed controversy... -Kraw Night (talk) 22:12, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Fully agree, this is ridiculous. Having been a longtime user of Misplaced Pages, I did not think the Register article had any merit to it until I actually came here. Samiharris, Guy, you guys and the statements you've made here are quite frankly the best evidence supporting the truth of the Register article and Bagley'y position. Konekoniku (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hear, hear! -Mangler (talk) 20:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As much as the Register article posted on Slashdot (and the other one about Durova) do seem tabloid-like, it is kind of sad to see Misplaced Pages admins working so hard to prove the points in the articles in both cases. More to the point, why is everyone here so concerned about protecting this article against any criticism, which reads like it might be a bio-blurb from his own site? It can't just be because he's a living person. After all, look at Patrick M. Byrne, another living person, whose article seems to be as much the product of smearing as any I've seen on the Misplaced Pages, far worse than the anti-Misplaced Pages tabloid reporting in the Register.

Looking over this talk page, I see a number of fairly reasonable points from concerned people, and User:Samiharris ineffectively deflecting it with claims that this has been "fully" (fully!? what the hell is that supposed to mean) discussed in the past. Even worse is User:JzG's suggestion that we shouldn't add NYT-sourced information to the article because it would be helping Bagley spread his meme. "The terrorists have already won. . ."

I second the notion that User:JzG should step aside from defending the block on this article and let an admin with a leveller head be the gatekeeper for it. Jun-Dai (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm extremely disturbed this entire episode, and I'll be doing some deeper digging when I get the chance. It's safe to say that given what I've seen so far, any admins involved in the past controversy should not be deciding whether it is a controversy or not. We need someone from outside the circle. OptimistBen (talk) 21:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

(removed personal attack. Crum375 (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC))

• Just a note to all the concerned parties here, be sure to check the discussions contained in Archive 2 as they are relevant to this discussion. They were archived even though the much of the discussions at the time were ongoing. Cla68 (talk) 00:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

No real point to counting the angel's on the pin. The "fully discussed" comment was merely Sami's way of indicating that there is a lot of illuminating material in the archived file he specified, and that instead of having the same old same old roundabout again (and again) some editors might want to look at it. Which seems fair enough to yours truly. --Christofurio (talk) 00:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Fair enough. I looked over the discussion on /Archive 2. I have to say, that discussion seems to have been archived a bit prematurely, but in any case it doesn't change my picture of the situation, except that I discovered that the attempt to include the NYT reference isn't new. With or without the material buried in the archive, the situation still doesn't seem like it would look good for anyone coming over from Slashdot and/or The Register. Even though I don't intend to invest any time in fixing it, I feel it's relevant to add my two cents as others have done here. Jun-Dai (talk) 01:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Grammar and Edit Blocking

Interesting Story on Slashdot about this article... http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/12/07/1434221.shtml Maria-mesh (talk) 17:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Given that this article is being Slashdotted, the block on general editing is perhaps understandable. But poor grammar and punctuation are still unacceptable. As just the first example, commas and other punctuation marks go INSIDE quotation marks: Weiss wrote a cover story called "The Mob on Wall Street", published in December 1996). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hadamhiram (talk • contribs) 19:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, that's a strictly American convention. I've seen punctuation outside quotation marks elsewhere on WP. Frankly, I've always thought it made more sense; the article is not called The Mob on Wall Street-comma, it's called The Mob on Wall Street. The comma is part of the sentence structure, not the title. Now, I'm saying this having been away from WP long enough that I don't recall what the MoS has to say on the topic of international punctuation conventions. --BCSWowbagger (talk) 22:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

See here. Crum375 (talk) 22:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism to be included

Any other admins here - this is the portion of criticism that Guy has removed, siting BLP. Please include the same in the article. If there are valid reasons not to include this in the article (apart from Bagleyfobia), please site the same.

- ==Naked Short Selling Controversy== - Weiss's comments on anti-naked-shorting activists have provoked some negative responses. Weiss has been a sharp critic of Overstock.com CEO Patrick M. Byrne and his opposition to short selling, which led to the creation of a critical website of Weiss by Overstock.com's director for social media. Weiss has also been accused of making biased edites to the Misplaced Pages entries on Overstock.com, Patrick Byrne, and himself, though he has denied ever doing so.

Simynazareth (talk) 02:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This has been rehashed to death. This article is a WP:BLP. It must be extremely well sourced for any derogatory statements. In addition, any item must not violate WP:UNDUE. For a journalist with a long career who has written numerous pieces in mainstream publications, and who has been involved in many notable investigations, including some relating to organized crime, there are numerous well sourced issues that could be written about in his biography. At any given stage, the items that do appear in the article must be the most relevant to his overall notability. As of now, the article is fairly short, which would require only the most notable items to appear. I would suggest that anyone interested in expanding this article read Mr. Weiss's numerous articles and learn about his investigations and other activities in his career, and then prioritize them by notability. When that's done, we can decide which ones merit inclusion and which ones do not. As of now, the Overstock episode appears to be insignificant compared to the many others that seem much more important, and include virtually no details. Crum375 (talk) 02:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Here is some more information to expand the article. Someone (ofcourse an admin - the article being protected) should expand the article, and maintain a neutral point of view, including his life history, achievements, and criticism. Simynazareth (talk) 03:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well I can do that, technically speaking. But you would have to reach a clear consensus here, that does not violate WP:UNDUE, WP:BLP, etc. The source you provide seems OK, but I suspect there are numerous others. What you should do, if you really want to expand the article properly, is pick an item, say some investigation from his career, find the relevant sources, and propose a change to the article. The best would be to start from the most notable items. If you reach consensus here, I would be happy to vet the result against BLP and UNDUE, and if all seems OK, I can insert it into the article for you. Crum375 (talk) 03:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand the WEIGHT point, but he does seem to blog about it a lot. The New York Times described criticizing Overstock as his second career. Cool Hand Luke 04:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Protection

Why was this article reverted and then protected? Cool Hand Luke 04:08, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't do it here, but as a rule in WP:BLP articles, admins may revert to a less controversial version (or even a stub) and protect it, if in their view there is excessive tendency to insert controversial items that violate BLP into the article. Crum375 (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I suppose that's good. I tend to be a BLP hawk myself, and not enough pages get this kind of treatment. Cool Hand Luke 04:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

While the admins are correct in making the decision to lock this article. The current state of the article is not neutral and there is definitely lots of questions about the neutrality of the article,as seen from the comments in these very pages.Therefore a neutrality tag at the very least could be added to the page readers can decide what to take which ever viewpoint they want to.Refusing to even make that change will completely validate the claims of the article in the register.While accepting the view that wikipedia is not democratic it should be at least neutral in its standpoint.The so called inner circle have a enormous responsibility for guarding the information contained in these portals i hope they won't fail in that task so dismally in this first test.There should be mechanisms to deal with controversies that question the very principles of wikipedia like this.More and more people consider wikipedia to be a responsible source of information,so in the future there will be incidences like this which put the entire administrative process in question.The current mechanisms have not dealt with this problem satisfactorily as i am sure all of you will agree.SO the question is whats been done to prevent or at least deal with such events in the future.Misplaced Pages need not be a democracy jimbo but it should not be a dictatorship all administrative processes must be transparent after all this is a social project.Manquer (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If consensus can be reached on this talk page that the current article is not neutral, in theory such a template could be added, although a much better solution would be to fix the specific problem. So if you have a specific problem you can point to, that you think violates WP:NPOV, please present it so it can be addressed. To save you time, if it has to do with the Overstock issues, then you'd have to show how adding it would not violate WP:UNDUE, per the above discussion. Crum375 (talk) 06:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I thought the point of adding an NPOV tag was that the "neutrality was disputed," (from the NPOV banner itself) not that everyone agrees that it is non-neutral, and it's quite clear in this case that the neutrality of the article is disputed. As for it being non-neutral, the article seems about as neutral as it would if he had written it as his resume. I love the use of the quote "Gary is among an elite group of journalists whose zest for investigative journalism has brought real change to the subjects he's covered." That pretty much covers the tone of the article. Jun-Dai (talk) 07:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I support this. "author of two books that critically examine the ethics and morality of Wall Street." - Statements like this could be rephrased. As of now, {{NPOV}} needs to be added till someone does further research and provides a neutral tone to the article. (or someone rephrases the current content to a neutral, encyclopedic tone). Simynazareth (talk) 07:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Crum375 the overstock issue is also a part of the overall problem with the article.Overstock issue has gained lot of press attention in part of the controversy here and because of Gary Weiss' own views as expressed in his own blog ,Infact if you do spend the time to go through it u would find that a large amount of the bandwidth is used for this issue alone.A belief so central to him should have been mentioned in the article,which is sorely lacking.Infact WP:UNDUE is to be applied here as undue emphasis has been given to lesser known information.Also people who come to this article would expect to know about the current controversy involving him.Manquer (talk) 08:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Virtually every article or policy on Misplaced Pages has some people disputing it. If we were to tag all of them, that would only disfigure the encyclopedia and add nothing useful. The way we operate is by consensus. If there is a consensus for change X, we put in change X, assuming it does not violate our policies. I would be happy, as I noted above, to insert any change in the article once such consensus is reached here. Crum375 (talk) 08:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That seems a bit messed up. I'm guessing such a consensus is impossible, since the article is being held hostage by someone that seems to prefer the content in the state it's in now, but perhaps I'm wrong on this point. Does anyone disagree that the article as it stands does not present a neutral point of view? Jun-Dai (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That is exactly the point this article violates on of the core three principles of wikipedia -neutrality evidence for this has been submitted by me and others in this section.We are not proposing a change to the article to be executed we are asking for the article to be changed in such a way that it is in conformation with wikipedia standards and principle,until such changes are made after due consensus has been reached on them a {NPOV} banner be placed .We dont need consensus for that , just evidence -which is given- i will gladly consider any debate regarding the validity of the evidence.u tell me why this evidence is insufficient.Manquer (talk) 08:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Add an NPOV tag until this issue is resolved?

• Support Jun-Dai (talk) 08:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Manquer (talk) 08:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support OptimistBen (talk) 08:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
• Support Simynazareth (talk) 10:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• No, I won't be adding an NPOV tag. We already know that Bagley uses disinformation and harassment against anyone who does not uncritically support his company, we can scarcely say that a failure to repeat that harassment here is a failure of neutrality. Of the four users above OptimistBen is the only one who has any meaningful number of contributions to the project, so I'd be grateful if he could help to explain to the three others who are clearly here mainly as a result of noise in the blogosphere to read up on WP:BLP and WP:RS. We do not include poorly sourced material in biographies, and polemical sources are not reliable. The Cade piece is clearly polemical, Bagley is as polemical as you can possibly get, and the material is stated in terms that are functionally indistinguishable from an outright attack. So, unless we can find better sources and better wording, we shrug it off as "vituperative piece by vituperative person" and ignore it. Guy (Help!) 11:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Mitchell, Dan. "Flames Flare Over Naked Shorts", The New York Times, January 20, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
2. Metz, Cade. "Misplaced Pages black helicopters circle Utah's Traverse Mountain", The Register, December 6, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
3. "Wall Street, Don't Let Customers Read This Book": Susan Antilla, Bloomberg.com
4. Mitchell, Dan. "Flames Flare Over Naked Shorts", The New York Times, January 20, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.
5. Metz, Cade. "Misplaced Pages black helicopters circle Utah's Traverse Mountain", The Register, December 6, 2007. Retrieved December 7, 2007.

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