Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Heikki Talimaa + 15 others: Difference between revisions

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	***I have a question. Does the guideline require playing in a fully professional league? Or is it possible to be playing at the highest level within the country (the top level of FIFA sanctioned play)? Let's say for sake of argument that the Tunisian top league is not fully professional (I actually have no idea). This would make the Etoile Sahel first team non-notable unless they have played internationally, right? That makes no sense because the first squad of a club like that is certainly more notable that the first squad of a lower-level club like Darlington F.C. Perhaps the Estonian top league is not as well-supported or covered as the Tunisian league, but I wonder if the notability requirement is satisfied here because it is the highest level within Estonia? Best regards. ] (]) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)		***I have a question. Does the guideline require playing in a fully professional league? Or is it possible to be playing at the highest level within the country (the top level of FIFA sanctioned play)? Let's say for sake of argument that the Tunisian top league is not fully professional (I actually have no idea). This would make the Etoile Sahel first team non-notable unless they have played internationally, right? That makes no sense because the first squad of a club like that is certainly more notable that the first squad of a lower-level club like Darlington F.C. Perhaps the Estonian top league is not as well-supported or covered as the Tunisian league, but I wonder if the notability requirement is satisfied here because it is the highest level within Estonia? Best regards. ] (]) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
	::*As one of the best leagues in Africa, Tunisia is not a very good example, but I get your point. It must be a fully pro league, regardless of whether it's the top tier or not. I might be wrong here, but I think even being an international player isn't automatically notable, although I don't know where's that line between "notable" and "not notable" national teams, but then again, trying to define notability with a stack of strict rules isn't an easy task, so there will always be arguable cases. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)		::*As one of the best leagues in Africa, Tunisia is not a very good example, but I get your point. It must be a fully pro league, regardless of whether it's the top tier or not. I might be wrong here, but I think even being an international player isn't automatically notable, although I don't know where's that line between "notable" and "not notable" national teams, but then again, trying to define notability with a stack of strict rules isn't an easy task, so there will always be arguable cases. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 23:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
			::**To be honest, the top division in Estonia is very very poor - the highest average attendance this season is 288 , putting it on a par with level 9 leagues in England. Even if it is a top division, I still believe the league is insufficiently important to merit player articles (and by continuing the argument for the articles, you'd end up with articles on hundreds of Sammarinese players, all of whom play in the top division of their country. ] ]] 09:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
	:*'''Comment''' You miss the point Ugent. I'm not claiming that anybody who is playing in the Estonian league is not notable by definition, but, at the same time, I don't think that there are around '''100''' notable players in 5 professional and 5 amateur clubs in the ]. I personally know a lot of footballers from the "top" estonian sides as well as several national team players and if I tell you that those 14 lads are not notable, please believe me, they aren't, at least not yet. Half of them don't even play for their clubs, representing reserve sides instead and that's in a league where even being a regular doesn't mean you're notable, there goes the key word again lol. ], who, in fact, is a very decent contributor, but tends to do a lot of things "his way" instead of the "wikipedia way" created an entry for every single player who was registered with the top three estonian clubs for the 2007 season. If you seriously think that all of them are notable and need an article on here, well, that's your choice, after all there's no way to measure notability with a dipstick. I did make one obviously wrong (ironically I was also the one who added the international players category to Gussev's page prior to putting an AfD template on his page) and one arguable nomination in a hurry, but both are withdrawn now. I really suggest you to review your decision. Oh and that "notable source" really is a joke, putting it mildly. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 22:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)		:*'''Comment''' You miss the point Ugent. I'm not claiming that anybody who is playing in the Estonian league is not notable by definition, but, at the same time, I don't think that there are around '''100''' notable players in 5 professional and 5 amateur clubs in the ]. I personally know a lot of footballers from the "top" estonian sides as well as several national team players and if I tell you that those 14 lads are not notable, please believe me, they aren't, at least not yet. Half of them don't even play for their clubs, representing reserve sides instead and that's in a league where even being a regular doesn't mean you're notable, there goes the key word again lol. ], who, in fact, is a very decent contributor, but tends to do a lot of things "his way" instead of the "wikipedia way" created an entry for every single player who was registered with the top three estonian clubs for the 2007 season. If you seriously think that all of them are notable and need an article on here, well, that's your choice, after all there's no way to measure notability with a dipstick. I did make one obviously wrong (ironically I was also the one who added the international players category to Gussev's page prior to putting an AfD template on his page) and one arguable nomination in a hurry, but both are withdrawn now. I really suggest you to review your decision. Oh and that "notable source" really is a joke, putting it mildly. <span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span> 22:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
	* '''Keep''' - these bios are most of a team, it seems. Whether they've played or not (not really sure), we would probably have to delete a ton of other articles as well related to similar topics with roughly the same amount of notability. (By the way, they ''may''—key word there— have potential for a larger built article.)   <font color="navy">''']'''</font><font color="teal"> ] </font><font color="navy">]</font> 23:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)		* '''Keep''' - these bios are most of a team, it seems. Whether they've played or not (not really sure), we would probably have to delete a ton of other articles as well related to similar topics with roughly the same amount of notability. (By the way, they ''may''—key word there— have potential for a larger built article.)   <font color="navy">''']'''</font><font color="teal"> ] </font><font color="navy">]</font> 23:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
	::I disagree that we would probably "have to delete a ton of other articles as well." Arguments like that in AFDs are usually quashed and sent to the bin of ]... the only thing other articles have to fear is if they don't have notability either. And if not, why are we afraid of deleting them?] (]) 04:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)		::I disagree that we would probably "have to delete a ton of other articles as well." Arguments like that in AFDs are usually quashed and sent to the bin of ]... the only thing other articles have to fear is if they don't have notability either. And if not, why are we afraid of deleting them?] (]) 04:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
	*'''Delete'''. These are players of doubtful notability, therefore keeping articles in their current state is meaningless. ]\|<small>]</small> 00:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)		*'''Delete'''. These are players of doubtful notability, therefore keeping articles in their current state is meaningless. ]\|<small>]</small> 00:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
			*'''Delete''' Haven't played in a fully-profssional or significant enough league. ] ]] 09:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 09:06, 11 December 2007

16 Estonian footballers

Either youth or reserve players, who aren't even notable domestically BanRay 21:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of football (soccer) related deletions. BanRay 21:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Delete by nominator BanRay 21:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment Random player from the list (Sergei Lepmets levadia site) played for JK Merkuur Tartu in 2004 Estonian League in 2004 so he is notable. Please recheck them all. Jhony | Talk 23:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- Comment First of all, Estonian league isn't a fully pro league, so players aren't granted notability "by default" and secondly, Merkuur were an amateur team up until their merge with Tammeka in 2006. Just in case you decide to check the rest of them, here are some links you might find useful: Flora TVMK BanRay 10:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  - Comment Thanks for the explanation and links, I didn't know that Estonian League is not fully professional, besides I don't know how to deal with notability in such cases. Jhony | Talk 11:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I think common sense should prevail in such cases, if they aren't notable domestically, they aren't notable enough to have an article on here. BanRay 14:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep Gussev and Post, delete the rest as they stand. Playing in the highest league is not in itself notable, it has to be fully professional. But Gussev and Post are current or former national team players (not that playing internationally is automatically notable either, but decent countries like Estonia are. Non-notable national teams are countries like Bhutan, Swaziland etc). Punkmorten (talk) 13:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment Post has never played for the NT, link. As for Gussev, I'm going to remove him from the list now, good job Punkmorten. BanRay 14:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment I'm going to withdraw my nomination for Sander Post as well. He has recieved several international call-ups so, I guess, is notable enough. BanRay 14:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment Are notability granted for playing in the Champions League, UEFA Cup or Intertoto Cup? For example, Heikki Talimaa played for Flora in UEFA Cup: Flora 0 - 1 Vålerenga, Vålerenga 1 - 0 Flora. Jhony | Talk 15:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That was in the qualifying rounds. BanRay 20:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep. I cannot understand how the top league of a UEFA-sponsored country (i.e. one with UEFA competition places - I am not saying the Liechtenstein top league is full of notable players), professional or otherwise, can be construed as not containing notable players. There is even a relatively notable source that rates the Estonian league ahead of the Swiss Super League, the Bulgarian league, the Polish league, the Danish league, Austria, MLS (I wouldn't doubt it). ugen64 (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
- You should get the guideline changed, then. It explicitly says professional league, and seeing as we have thousands upon thousands of footballers who already meet the criteria there's hardly a need to broaden the scope. Furthermore, but this is really beside the question, the notion that the Estonian league is "better" than the Austrian, Swiss, Danish etc leagues is just preposterous. And the Colombian league ranks above the Bundesliga? Yeeeah. Punkmorten (talk) 21:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
  - I have a question. Does the guideline require playing in a fully professional league? Or is it possible to be playing at the highest level within the country (the top level of FIFA sanctioned play)? Let's say for sake of argument that the Tunisian top league is not fully professional (I actually have no idea). This would make the Etoile Sahel first team non-notable unless they have played internationally, right? That makes no sense because the first squad of a club like that is certainly more notable that the first squad of a lower-level club like Darlington F.C. Perhaps the Estonian top league is not as well-supported or covered as the Tunisian league, but I wonder if the notability requirement is satisfied here because it is the highest level within Estonia? Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 03:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As one of the best leagues in Africa, Tunisia is not a very good example, but I get your point. It must be a fully pro league, regardless of whether it's the top tier or not. I might be wrong here, but I think even being an international player isn't automatically notable, although I don't know where's that line between "notable" and "not notable" national teams, but then again, trying to define notability with a stack of strict rules isn't an easy task, so there will always be arguable cases. BanRay 23:25, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
- To be honest, the top division in Estonia is very very poor - the highest average attendance this season is 288 , putting it on a par with level 9 leagues in England. Even if it is a top division, I still believe the league is insufficiently important to merit player articles (and by continuing the argument for the articles, you'd end up with articles on hundreds of Sammarinese players, all of whom play in the top division of their country. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 09:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment You miss the point Ugent. I'm not claiming that anybody who is playing in the Estonian league is not notable by definition, but, at the same time, I don't think that there are around 100 notable players in 5 professional and 5 amateur clubs in the meistriliiga. I personally know a lot of footballers from the "top" estonian sides as well as several national team players and if I tell you that those 14 lads are not notable, please believe me, they aren't, at least not yet. Half of them don't even play for their clubs, representing reserve sides instead and that's in a league where even being a regular doesn't mean you're notable, there goes the key word again lol. User:Walericaz, who, in fact, is a very decent contributor, but tends to do a lot of things "his way" instead of the "wikipedia way" created an entry for every single player who was registered with the top three estonian clubs for the 2007 season. If you seriously think that all of them are notable and need an article on here, well, that's your choice, after all there's no way to measure notability with a dipstick. I did make one obviously wrong (ironically I was also the one who added the international players category to Gussev's page prior to putting an AfD template on his page) and one arguable nomination in a hurry, but both are withdrawn now. I really suggest you to review your decision. Oh and that "notable source" really is a joke, putting it mildly. BanRay 22:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep - these bios are most of a team, it seems. Whether they've played or not (not really sure), we would probably have to delete a ton of other articles as well related to similar topics with roughly the same amount of notability. (By the way, they may—key word there— have potential for a larger built article.) jj137 ♠ Talk 23:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that we would probably "have to delete a ton of other articles as well." Arguments like that in AFDs are usually quashed and sent to the bin of WP:OTHERSTUFF... the only thing other articles have to fear is if they don't have notability either. And if not, why are we afraid of deleting them?Epthorn (talk) 04:04, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Delete. These are players of doubtful notability, therefore keeping articles in their current state is meaningless. Jhony | Talk 00:31, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
Delete Haven't played in a fully-profssional or significant enough league. пﮟოьεԻ 5 7 09:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

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