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Doric

kalan ameran, everyone :) — for the purposes of the Macedon article, do we have any example word that shows Doric as well as (Berenice-style) XMK-characteristics? alixa, aliza "alder" (PIE *ol-, *el-) could be one? BTW, I am getting the impression that there were several languages in Ancient Macedonia, but we don't have enough data to resolve them. There would have been Doric Greek, I suppose, and there was also XMK, and maybe others (or, to put it differently, "XMK" didn't exist, there were several unknown languages). To put it like this would amount to original research, since I've only just thought of that. But probably someone somewhere would have published a similar idea? no? dab (ᛏ) 08:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will stoop so low as to answer a greeting in provincial accent: g'day, mate! :P Isn't "XMK" a Jaguar model? In the meantime I found another authentic Macedonian text, a fragment from the diary of a Ptolemaic princess:

The time: 1st Century BC
The place: the Royal Palace, Alexandria

Queen Veronica (in pain): "My stomag 'urts"
Princess Cleopatra (smiling): "That phig you ate, like, phive minutes ago? It was, like, poisoned, mother!"
Queen Veronica (anguished): "But, Cleo, you gave me dat big"
Princess Cleopatra (coldly): "It was poisoned, mother. I poisoned it!"
Queen Veronica (gasping): "Cleo, how could you do dis?!? I-am-your-moder!"
Princess Cleopatra (leering): "Yeah, but your name, like, lacks aspiration, and I aspire to be, like, QUEEN OF EGYPT. And to, like, marry that hunk, your husband and my brother Ptolemy! Now, DIE!"

(walks away in triumph as the Queen falls to the floor, blue and twitching)
____________________________

• Big, phig = modern-day fig Chronographos 10:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Follow-up:

Upon her ascent on the throne, Cleopatra the (Nile) Valley girl duly assumed the title "Eumetor", and when she killed her brother and husband the Pharaoh to marry her (younger and yummier) nephew, she also assumed the title "Philadelphos" :)))))) Chronographos 11:31, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ok, 'graphos :o) I know I started the joking, but this was actually meant as a serious idea... dab (ᛏ) 13:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You see what happens when folks encourage me, I put on a show! Why, I could be a scriptwriter for Xena :-PPP To business: can you direct me to a reputable online source of Macedonian word lists and names? I must confess I'm not impressed by the article Glossary, it looks haphazard to me. Primary sources would be a-ok - whacko webpages would not Chronographos 15:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Quelle silence ...

C'mon, Albanau, excite us with your erudite eloquence, your elaborate elegance, your ebullient effervescence! Chronographos 10:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm busy at Elam right now — WP is "emergency driven", I suppose :) dab (ᛏ) 11:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh, man, I see a fatwah coming with your name on it. Imagine the headlines: "The Salman Rushdie of Misplaced Pages flees for his life", "The Ayatollahs threaten Switzerland with retaliation", "Something is rotten in William Tell's apple", etc, etc. All this of course is no excuse whatsoever for Albanau the Enlightener to remain silent on crucial issues of our times. BTW did you hear that Skanderberg is recalling 250,000 trucks for faulty windscreen wipers? Apparently they cause poor visibility in heavy rain and have been responsible for 347 autobahn deaths so far. And it's all Albanau's fault too! Chronographos 11:23, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

you are a funny man. Seriously, humour is sometimes all too scarce on Misplaced Pages. It's true, all you have to do is start vandalizing this article, and people will come jumping and give you attention. You may be blocked as a result, however :) dab (ᛏ) 11:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"humour is sometimes all too scarce on Misplaced Pages"? Now this is an unwarranted, inappropriate, weaselly attack on Decius and I won't allow it! Chronographos 11:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

nah, this is actually in defence of Decius. Being used to grim panhellenic edit warriors with double axes, he couldn't know you were such a funnybone. dab (ᛏ) 14:22, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Double axes?!?!? I go for double entendre Chronographos 14:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay Chronographos, you are not a weasel. I apologize for that. I get into worse arguments with my brother, and I can't be too mad at someone with a sense of humor. If the Pella katadesmos represents the ancient Macedonian language, I'm wondering why the Macedonians were so often viewed as non-Hellenes. Decius 14:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you take off thinking that Alexander might have not identified himself as a Greek, but as a Macedonian instead, and then, after getting drunk, you conclude that he actually did the latter rather than the former, then I say that the old adage "in vino veritas" is strictly true about wine, not gin. You state what is "often viewed". In Galileo's case who was right? He or what most people "often viewed"? What most people often think or say does not define the truth by necessity. Well, maybe we should ask Alexander himself. Some quotes of his exist verbatim, you know. Do you recall what inscription he ordered written when he sent 12 Persian shields to be hanged on the west architrave of the Parthenon as trophies? Chronographos 14:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know, or if I read it before I don't remember. Decius 14:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let me refresh your memory then: "ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ ΚΑΙ ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΕΣ ΠΛΗΝ ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΩΝ ΑΠΟ ΤΩΝ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΩΝ ΤΩΝ ΤΗΝ ΑΣΙΑΝ ΚΑΤΟΙΚΟΥΝΤΩΝ". What's your take of it? Chronographos 14:55, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it says something like Alexander son of Philip, a Hellene,... conquered Asia from the barbarous nations. Decius 15:02, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I give you an F for "fail". I was frankly hoping that, someone who states that Language A is a different one than Language B, should be able to read Language B (since there are no intact A texts). Here is the translation: "Alexander son of Philip and the Greeks, with the exception of the Spartans, from the barbarians who inhabit Asia". The Spartan jab has to do with the fact that the Spartans refused to join the expedition because "every expedition in which Spartans participate should always be headed by a Spartan". The Spartans were living in the past, and Alexander was pointing that out most, er, pointedly. That piece of sarcasm apart, what does the inscription tell you on the matter of Alexander's own perception of himself and his troops? Something more than gin, one should hope ... Chronographos 15:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Alexander the Great may well have identified as a Greek, since he got along more with his mother, who was a Greek, and there is also his father's Argive ancestry. Decius 15:22, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

what evidence is there that Epirotes were Greeks? What Argive ancestry? That's a very vague claim. The Argeads were way more specific: they claimed to be descendants of Hercules himself. Maybe they were just aggrandizing themselves. Surely they didn't have the certificates matching their DNA to Hercules' DNA, did they? Is this the kind of "evidence" you prefer? In other words: your opinion is that Alexander's Parthenon inscription is unreliable because he had ulterior motives, whereas the Argeads' claim that they were descendants of .... Hercules (!) is sound and could not possibly have had an ulterior motive. Yeah right ... Chronographos 16:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See above. Alexander dictates the inscription on behalf of the victors: himself (as king) and his troops (the Greeks with the exception of the Spartans). What now? Had he no Macedonians with him, that he should honor their part in the war? Chronographos 15:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe because the inscription was written in Athens, he didn't want to take pride away from the Greeks by underlining the Macedonian part, and maybe identifying Greeks with Macedonians was part of the policy of the Hellenization. Who knows. Decius 15:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Maybe this, maybe that, maybe something else, maybe you've made your mind up and there ain't nobody gonna change it Chronographos 16:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can't read ancient Greek off the top, but if I would've checked Perseus I could've done it. I got lazy and just looked in my Scott & Liddel's book, and didn't find enough info. I can read it now, what really tripped me up was the use of 'plen' and I confused katoikounton with kat-oikeo, 'to be governed over', and I thought of 'govern over'> conquer. Decius 15:53, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

LSJ - κατοικ-έω ,

     A. settle in, colonize, πόλιν Hdt.7.164 ; γῆν E.Med.10 ; τοῖς κατοικεῖν ἐθέλουσι τὰν πόλιν Decr.Byz. ap. D.18.91: generally, inhabit, τόπους S.Ph.40 ; τὴν Ἀσίαν SIG557.17 (Magn. Mae., iii B.C.), etc.:-- Pass., to be dwelt in or inhabited, opp. κατοικίζομαι (to be just founded), Arist.Pol.1266b2. 

                 2. abs., settle, dwell, ζητοῦσα . . ποῦ κατοικοίης S.OC362 ; ἵνα χρὴ κατοικεῖν Ar.Av.153 ; ἐν δόμοις, ἐν ἄστεσι, E.Hel. 1651, Pl.Lg.666e, etc.; αὐτόθι Th.3.34 ; ἐν μοναρχίᾳ Isoc.1.36 ; ἐπὶ γῆς Apoc.3.10 ; esp. of non-citizens, Ἐφέσιοι καὶ οἱ -οῦντες SIG352.4 (Ephesus, iv B.C.). cf. 633.67 (Milet., ii B.C.):--pf. and plpf. Pass., to have been planted or settled, κατὰ κώμας Hdt.1.96 , cf.2.102; κ.νῆσον, τὴν μεσόγειαν, Id.4.8, Th.1.120. 

           II. administer, govern, οἱ τὰς πόλεις -οῦντες Phld.Rh.2.225 S.:--more freq. in Pass., κατῴκηνται καλῶς, of Athens, S.OC1004; ὀρθῶς κ., of Sparta, Pl.Lg.683a. 

           III. intr. of cities, lie, be siluated, ἐν τοῖς πεδίοις ib.677c, cf. 682c: also c. acc. loci, τὰς τὴν Ἀσίαν κατοικούσας which are situated in . . , Isoc. 5.123.

Chronographos 16:29, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The fact that I'm a barbaros from the North :) who can't yet read ancient Greek without comprehensive dictionaries isn't relevant to the article or what it says. However, I am for the Greek dialect view being given more prominence, since enough scholars support it. Now, the Epirotes question: I can ask you the same thing about the Macedonians. Decius 16:33, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My point exactly! There is similar dearth of existing hard evidence about the Epirotes and what they spoke. Yet you remain "unconvinced" about the Macedonians while accepting the Epirotes as Greeks. Maybe you just don't know enough about either of them, Decius .... Chronographos 16:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm looking for a quote about Epirotes that I read last night that is relevant here. B back. Decius 16:52, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to R. Malcolm Errington, in his A History of Macedonia (paraphrasing): "the fundamental Greek nationality of the Epirotes, Acarnanians, and Aetolians was never doubted", "unlike the Macedonians", whose Greekness was called into question. See chapter 1, pg. 4. I might quote it exactly later, but that's what he says. Decius 16:57, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've been looking for more linguists who support the Macedonian-Greek dialect camp, but so far I have only collected more historians who believe that. R. Malcolm Errington himself in that 1986 book that I just mentioned views Macedonians as speakers of a Greek dialect. Errington was a Professor of Ancient History at the Philipps-Universität in Marsburg, West Germany (sic). Decius 17:22, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, if I understand correctly what you wrote, Errington says that he himself thinks that Macedonians spoke a Greek dialect, whereas their Greekness has been questioned by others? Is this the meaning of the Passive Voice ("never doubted", "called into question") Errington uses? Do I get it right? Chronographos 17:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You got it right. Errington believes that Macedonian was a Greek dialect, but he discusses how their Greekness was called into question by the Greeks. He remarks how Macedonians, Epirotes, Acarnanians, and Aetolians all led the same "alien way of life" (verbatim): "This alien way of life was, however, common to the western Greeks in Epeiros, Acarnania, and Aitolia, as well as to the Macedonians, and their fundamental Greek nationality was never doubted." In the context of the paragraph & the text, he is remarking how the Macedonians were singled out as non-Greeks for some reason, while those others weren't, according to Errington. Decius 17:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

However, I've been reading Errington's book and he seems to be deceptive or selective, claiming for example in one place that the Greekness of the Macedonians was only questioned when the dispute with Athens developed, while in another place he discusses and admits how Herodotus recorded that the Macedonians were excluded from the Olympics until Alexander the I....so...Errington isn't the book I go by. Decius 17:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The contradiction will be found as you turn from page 3 to 4, if somebody's curious, and I'll probably quote it later. I've noted that type of juggling of the facts before, which is why I trust linguists more than historians and classicists who are overflowing with pan-hellenism---not that that's bad, but it colors their interpretations. Decius 17:45, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pg 3:This claim (Greek descent)was already made by Alexander I, who wished to participate as a runner in the Olympic Games, which apparently no Macedonian before him had done. But because participation was traditionally restricted to Greeks, Alexander had to prove his Greek ancestry, which he was able to do brilliantly with the tale of the Argive origins of his family. Errington doesn't proceed to question that Macedonians were excluded because Greeks viewed them as non-Hellenes. He seems to accept that fact, and he moves on. On page 4 however, he says this: Ancient allegations that the Macedonians were non-Greeks all had their origin in Athens at the time of the struggle with Philip II.---That's not only false, it is a contradiction. Decius 18:35, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, that is why I am suspicious of the real motives and of the scholarly integrity of individuals like Errington, Hammond, monsieur Masson, and others of their ilk. Decius 18:37, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gosh, Decius, for a fellow who gets confused by "plen" (Greek kids learn plen at 1st Grade, when they are taught how to subtract: three oranges plen two oranges equals one orange), you're awful quick to be passing judgement on the Oxford Classical Dictionary, and the Grand Professorial Conspiracy which you, Decius Maximus, so bravely exposed . Medical students who do this at Rounds get "pimped". Some have been driven to suicide after being repeatedly pimped. The rest learn rather quickly. Nevertheless all you do is quote, quote, quote, and then opine, opine, opine on the quotations, quotations, quotations. Yet your scientific training in the relevant field appears to be zero. My insistence, rather, is quite simple: focus on the evidence. Evaluate what's there. Coins, inscriptions, even poor old Hesychius writing ten centuries after the "crime". Hesychius, Hesychius, wheretofore art thou, Hesychius? Chronographos 19:20, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) (PS I don't know the specifics of your self-described alcohol-related issues, but please read this. Just trying to help)

You seem to have gotten frustrated. I wonder why. More evidence indeed is needed here, so feel free to bring it. In the meanwhile, I pride myself on not being able to translate that ancient Greek sentence off the top of my head, because I identify myself as a Roman (Greek descent doesn't contradict that identification). The Romans are the ones who laid down the greatest empire this world has ever seen. Decius 19:27, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A Roman! Carry on, dear, carry on.

For the rest of our readers, from the dry drunk WP entry (my comments in italics): The behavior patterns of dry drunks are characterized by rigidity of thinking and going to extremes (weasel, prick) of characterization of people (monsieur Masson, and others of their ilk) and situations as e.g. (linguists) good and (historians) evil. Subtle distinctions (evidence) are difficult for the dry drunk to understand.

Now back to Decius: I should sincerely hope the above do not apply to you, but your Roman self-identification really puzzles me. For example, how do you realize this identification of yours in practical, every-day terms? Do you dress in togas? Is this strictly in the privacy of your own home? Do you keep Lares at your home? Do you often perform certain ceremonies in relation to the Lares? I just find this fascinating and I'd love to hear more .... Chronographos 19:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm actually looking for a good Roman toga. If you find a website selling one, let me know. Honestly. Decius 19:48, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A toga prætexta, or will a plain one do? I do believe you honestly mean every word you say. This is why your disinclination to discuss your "I am a Roman" statement leaves me perplexed. Surely this is something you feel intensely proud about, something to share with others. I, for example, also "respect the Romans" because they indeed "are the ones who laid down the greatest empire this world has ever seen". But, since I do not reside there, I cannot call myself a Roman (this being the year 2005). Why do you? Chronographos 20:08, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You guys must be stupid or something. You don't realize how I'm sitting back here laughing at all this. I'm here listening to Masta Killa on my stereo and looking through The Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons, and googling for a toga just to see if any are for sale. You got something to add to the article, do it. I don't own Misplaced Pages or even care about it beyond the articles I watch. Decius 20:21, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Masta Killa! How exquisite! A certain Roman connoiseur of fine music would be proud of you. Let not my humble tastes annoy you Chronographos 20:41, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, I'm not vindictive and I'm not holding the article in my tyrant-grip. I'm not some rigid jerk who thinks his say is law. No one is stopping you from editing the article, but like everybody else, your edits will be open to the fluidity of Misplaced Pages. Decius 20:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My aim is not to edit articles according to my own beliefs. Indeed "beliefs" and Misplaced Pages sont deux mots qui vont tres mal ensemble. What I wish is to discuss the issues intelligently. To learn, perchance to teach. Which is why I have not touched the article since the Pella katadesmos. I enjoy convincing others and being convinced. Se vuol' ballare, Signior Contino ... Chronographos 21:09, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) (it is the voyage that matters, not the destination)

I'm glad you are buddying up now, slowly :) Anyway, 'graphos, considering that we are strictly only allowed to adduce published opinions, and arrange them in a pleasantly flowing writeup, it doesn't really matter if Decius is able to read Ancient Greek. I have no knowledge of most languages I read publications about. People could boo me off Elamite language, because I don't speak a single word of that :) dab (ᛏ) 09:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe because the inscription was written in Athens, he didn't want to take pride away from the Greeks by underlining the Macedonian part, and maybe identifying Greeks with Macedonians was part of the policy of the Hellenization. Who knows.

There is a passage in the Histories of Kallisthenes (1.37.9) where he quotes a letter of Alexander III:

`Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers.'

I wonder what sort of 'maybes' you'll fabricate for this one Decius... The fact is that in all records that we have from Macedonian royalties and scholars, the Macedonian people naturally identify themselves as Greeks in every single account. There's not a single piece of evidence which can remotely imply that Macedonian people had a separate ethnic conciousness (that many people go on about). The fact that Alexander's close relations with his army was a major factor to his military success, proves that his own views reflected the ones of the entire Macedonian nation. Unless of course you suggest that Alexander was a Greek dictator over a non-Greek people, because the quotation on "from Alexander and the Greeks", refers to his Macedonian armies. Anyway, I don't support the view that the Greekness of the Macedonians was ever literally doubted. Your question regarding why some people like Demosthenes did call Macedonians barbarians (while nobody ever wasted his time on Aetolians and Epirotes) can be easily answered by considering the military power of Macedon under Philip II. Miskin 14:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In the meanwhile, I pride myself on not being able to translate that ancient Greek sentence off the top of my head, because I identify myself as a Roman. The Romans are the ones who laid down the greatest empire this world has ever seen. I respect the Romans.

That's rather contradictory. It hasn't been two days since I randomly found myself in the basement of Gilbert Jeune by St-Michel, going through a book that was called "Façons de parler grec à Rome". The editor's presentation reads: "César selon Suétone serait mort dans les deux langues, s'adressant en latin à ses ennemis politiques, en grec à son fils". There was no Roman citizen who couldn't speak Greek. Of course the question that comes up is "what was ever a Roman" other than a title of power? The people who were originally "ethnic Romans" were assimilated into their own Empire. I suppose the Roman Empire was so great that got all Romans extinct... I think I'll stick with the empire of Alexander III. Besides, no Alexander, no Roman Empire. Miskin 14:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chronographe den exo graphtei akoma ekei pou synphonisame, dose mou ligo chrono mexri na epanelthei to diadyktio sto spiti mou. Milao kata auton ton tropo gia na min mas katalaboune. Miskin 14:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

TLG

As I have said before, I have no problem with the article as it stands now, nor do I wish it changed at this point. The conversation so far has satisfied me that Decius' grasp of the subject is superficial and patchy, at best. What I have asked for repeatedly, is to be directed to online primary sources of the original material used in the Glossary. You guys have not been forthcoming. Why is this? If there is no online stuff, let me know so that I can start raiding the bookshops. BTW, since I am a 'Graf', shouldn't you address me as Durchlaut? :-P Chronographos 11:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

it should be simple tracing all those words using the TLG database. However, it would take me a couple of hours. Pay me, and I'll do it :) dab (ᛏ) 11:22, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Macedonian words in the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae?!? Conspiracy, conspiracy! Nevertheless I had obtained (I won't say how) "TLG CD-E+ PHI5&7+ Musaios + TLG Workstation", an archive about 800 MB big after unzipping. I am confused as to this: is CD-E sufficient or do I need A, B, C and D as well, so to speak? Chronographos 12:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

um, one CD should be sufficient. You will only find the words attested by Greek authors, of course, i.e. things like Theophrastus' maple, and of course Hesychius. Epigraphical stuff like coins will not be on there. dab (ᛏ) 12:52, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's ok, I have ways and means and connections, you know. I may get access to the work of Stefanos Koumanoudis the Younger, a leading epigraphologist, and the grandson of SK the Elder, another legend who worked with, among others, Doerpfeld, and a member of the Académie des Inscriptions et Belles-Lettres. When the younger SK went to Paris for his advanced studies, his professeur asked each student to rise and introduce themselves. When SK started "Je m' appelle Stéphane Koumanoudis ...", the professor waved him down: "Je vous connai, Monsieur". Such was the renown of his grandfather! Chronographos 13:13, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

why then do we not have a Stephanos Koumanoudis article? Get busy man! — We don't have Wilhelm Doerpfeld, for that matter. But note de:Wilhelm Dörpfeld. dab (ᛏ) 13:19, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Two articles, you mean. All in good time. I am now trying to locate the new poem by Sappho that was reconstructed from the Oxyrhynchus findings, as published in TLS yesterday. Then I need to work on my presentation to a medical convention next weekend :-PPP etc etc. Chronographos 13:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) (And did I mention my Med School Reunion tomorrow?) :-)))

Thracian words are found in Perseus' Greek database (cf. Brynchos), so it doesn't imply their views on the language classification. Decius 13:25, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

he was joking! the names of Indian tribes, and words like aananaananalaaa, aioiaoiiiaaao, arithosaaaaa are found in the TLG. dab (ᛏ) 13:35, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I had to clear up the issue regardless if he was joking. Remember, Miskin also reads this page, and he might include that fact in his "arsenal". Decius 13:38, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Decius, I was not joking when I referred you to the dry drunk page Chronographos 13:42, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well thanks Doc, but I'm not drunk. And take precautions so that your love of Greek wine doesn't turn you into a soaking wet drunk. Decius 13:46, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Did I say you were? Surely your English comprehension is better than that! Worry not. I respect heritage, yours, mine, everyone's Chronographos 14:10, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Vlad the Impaler. He who had Turks for lunch. I love that guy. Decius 14:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You should really let your artistic side flourish. You know, a centurion's armor, an AK-47, Vlad's picturesque headdress and it's look out, Eurovision Song Contest, here comes the Carpathian Gangsta Rap Chronographos 14:23, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am glad you can shake hands over your shared enmity against the Turks :) I'm afraid I cannot claim any ancestors involved in stemming the Turkish tide, but my girlfriend's finally stopped them, just outside Vienna, so mine didn't get a chance. But at the time we are looking at here, for better or worse, they are still safely tucked up behind the Taklamakan. dab (ᛏ) 14:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hey, I like Turks and I think they should be admitted in the EU on the double Chronographos 14:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe because the inscription was written in Athens, he didn't want to take pride away from the Greeks by underlining the Macedonian part, and maybe identifying Greeks with Macedonians was part of the policy of the Hellenization. Who knows.

There is a passage in the Histories of Kallisthenes (1.37.9) where he quotes a letter of Alexander III:

`Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers.'

I wonder what sort of 'maybes' you'll fabricate for this one Decius... The fact is that in all records that we have from Macedonian royalties and scholars, the Macedonian people naturally identify themselves as Greeks in every single account. There's not a single piece of evidence which can remotely imply that Macedonian people had a separate ethnic conciousness (that many people go on about). The fact that Alexander's close relations with his army was a major factor to his military success, proves that his own views reflected the ones of the entire Macedonian nation. Unless of course you suggest that Alexander was a Greek dictator over a non-Greek people, because the quotation on "from Alexander and the Greeks", refers to his Macedonian armies. Anyway, I don't support the view that the Greekness of the Macedonians was ever literally doubted. Your question regarding why some people like Demosthenes did call Macedonians barbarians (while nobody ever wasted his time on Aetolians and Epirotes) can be easily answered by considering the military power of Macedon under Philip II. Miskin 14:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In the meanwhile, I pride myself on not being able to translate that ancient Greek sentence off the top of my head, because I identify myself as a Roman. The Romans are the ones who laid down the greatest empire this world has ever seen. I respect the Romans.

That's rather contradictory. It hasn't been two days since I randomly found myself in the basement of Gilbert Jeune by St-Michel, going through a book that was called "Façons de parler grec à Rome". The editor's presentation reads: "César selon Suétone serait mort dans les deux langues, s'adressant en latin à ses ennemis politiques, en grec à son fils". There was no Roman citizen who couldn't speak Greek. Of course the question that comes up is "what was ever a Roman" other than a title of power? The people who were originally "ethnic Romans" were assimilated into their own Empire. I suppose the Roman Empire was so great that got all Romans extinct... I think I'll stick with the empire of Alexander III. Besides, no Alexander, no Roman Empire. Miskin 14:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chronographe den exo graphtei akoma ekei pou synphonisame, dose mou ligo chrono mexri na epanelthei to diadyktio sto spiti mou. Milao kata auton ton tropo gia na min mas katalaboune. Miskin 14:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you on some points. For instance, Greeks can call themselves Romans (if they want to) as much as any Italian can. It does not have to do with Rome, but with the empire. Decius 14:39, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Graecia capta ferum captorem cepit, et artis intulit agresti Latio Horace, Epistulae, 2.1.156 Chronographos 14:44, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah well, for obvious reasons by "Roman Empire" and "Romans" I wasn't referring to the Byzantine hellenism. The Byzantine Empire was in fact the only original successor state to the real Roman Empire (TM), but the title "Rhomaioi" was only a symbolic (most foreigners indentified them as Greeks). The Greeks who indentified (or identify) themselves as 'Romans' never claimed an ethnic connection to ancient Rome. And I don't think that any educated Italian would ever consider the Roman civilization as a sole heritage of the Italian nation. Modern Italy is connected to the Roman Empire as much as any other Vulgar Latin-Speaking peninsula did prior to the French Revolution and the creation of modern nations. Besides there's no such thing as ancient Italians or ancient French. And of course French != Francs like Turkish != Turks. Miskin 15:11, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

and Akhaioi!= Elliniki, one is tempted to add. dab (ᛏ) 15:19, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

i-je-re-ja e-ne-ka ku-ru-so-jo i-je-ro-jo to you too! :P Chronographos 15:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not until the 9th century BC dab. Miskin 15:24, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Pella katadesmos

The Pella katadesmos is pretty compelling proof of ancient Macedonian being a form of Greek. Good job, guys. As for whether the others considered the Macedonians barbarians, well... My mother is a vociferous Maniot from Kalamata who considers the Maniots the only true Greeks as "no Turk ever set foot in the Mani". Even the non-Maniot Messenians (like my father) are suspect, and she has absolutely no time for the Macedonians: "They're like the Yugoslavs, they eat too many peppers."--Theathenae 17:28, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I hope this nice amateur ethnologist lady is as good at her area of expertise (=dishwashing) Chronographos 17:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Masson knew about the Pella katadesmos (he writes of it), but even he said we should wait for further discoveries to be more sure. Decius 17:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What Masson and others realize is that a Dorian Greek dialect may have been spoken in Macedonia alongside Macedonian. That is not unlikely. Decius 17:44, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How sure can you be that Klingon was not spoken as well, Decius? Chronographos 17:47, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wow. The Macos spoke Doric and Attic in addition to their own tongue. Such talent. No wonder they gobbled up Slavonic so readily.--Theathenae 18:00, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, I didn't imply bilingualism necessarily, I meant geographical co-incidence. Decius 18:02, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, then the alternative is: the ancient Greeks "proper" were such astounding xenophobes and chauvinists, they considered Macedonians as non-Hellenes because they spoke an archaic Doric Greek dialect? Not a much better scenario. Decius 17:51, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Venom becomes Decius (yawnnnnn, what else is new ...) Chronographos 17:56, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC) (PS If you ever get overtly jaundiced, Decius, it might not be just alcoholic cirrhosis. Methinks you were born with bile in your veins, instead of blood)

That is probably closer to the mark than anything you've ever written, Decie. The Greeks have been at each other's throats as a national pastime since antiquity, and the biggest insult in the book is to question someone's Greekness.--Theathenae 18:00, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In either case, I was right: Ancient Macedonian was a separate language from Greek (a language is a dialect with an army, etc.). Decius 18:05, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, it's your dry drunk brain that cannot grasp complex realities Chronographos 18:14, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I got something for you to grasp. Decius 18:17, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the time being, grasp a bottle. It won't be the first time ... and there's nothing wrong with "comfort foods" per se Chronographos 18:32, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No. Doric is undisputedly Greek. XMK is not. I agree it's a compelling that XMK was marginal even in the 4th century, and maybe was never more than a mountain dialect. I.e. it may be argued that Ancient Macedonian is a misnomer, since typical Macedonians spoke Doric. Maybe. But that does not in the least suggest that XMK = Doric. Where is the Doric vocalism in XMK? Where is the XMK voicing in Doric? Also, it would be more compelling if the katadesmos was 5th century. Everybody agrees Greek became dominant from the 4th century. An interesting text. Not decisive to this question. dab (ᛏ) 18:07, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Attic Greek became dominant from the 4th century, yes, but the language of the katadesmos is certainly not Attic. It looks like Doric, but it isn't. It is precisely these differences from Doric that suggest it is in fact Macedonian. But still unmistakably Greek.--Theathenae 18:18, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I was joking. My comment was aimed at Theathenae and the Tosk/Arvanite debacle. Decius 18:08, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Decie, the débâcle you speak of concerns 18-year-old Kosovar Albanau's insistence that a "pure Arvanítis is a pure Albanian" and his latest pearl of wisdom, namely that "the Tosk and the Gheg" are "mostly mutually intelligible", despite all evidence to the contrary. See Talk:Albanian language#Gheg and Tosk, mostly mutually intelligible?--Theathenae 18:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I wasn't implying who has the upper hand in the debacle, I think both you and Albanau are stretching the thing in opposite extreme directions. But I'm not getting involved further. Decius 18:48, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Would you two please keep off-topic disussions where they belong? Thank you ever so kindly Chronographos 18:53, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The words identifed as belonging to XMK exhibit a consistent sound-change pattern (extremely unlikely to be a false positive---the sound-changes are actual), as already noted, both in the article text and previously on this talk page. The katadesmos from Pella doesn't show these changes. Did the changes happen after the katadesmos? I doubt that, but let's wait for further discoveries, as Masson said. Decius 18:58, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Glossary

Agkalis is probably a mis-rendering of Ankalis (PIE *ank, 'to bend'). Agkalis is from Babaev's glossary, apparently. Cf. Attic ankulos, ankos, ankistron, etc., from PIE *ank (or *ang). Cf. also Latin angulus (angle, bend), Old English ancleow (ankle), Sanskrit anka (hook). Decius 19:38, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Decius, your utter ignorance, combined with your alcoholic stubborness, make a uniquely repulsive amalgam of δοκησισοφία. NONE of the words you mention do you even spell correctly. I will not correct you because I would like you to keep demonstrating your incompetence. Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Really? The transliterations are as according to the American Heritage Dictionary, so send them a letter of complaint. If you want all the accents indicated, don't expect them from me unless I really need to indicate them. Decius 02:12, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Written alpha, gamma, kappa, but should be read as ank-. Decius 19:40, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

that's no problem at all. We're just transliterating, here, and alpha-gamma-kappa would of course be read as ank-. dab (ᛏ) 19:47, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In one word, no. You are wrong too, Dab Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me for "opining" again, but I will say that Macedonian and Attic were not very mutually intelligible, and I don't think the Pella katadesmos is Macedonian. There is an Egyptian papyrus that apparently records how a Greek general had to send a soldier who spoke Macedonian to address a Macedonian cavalry. Will find the papyrus in question. Decius 20:21, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Please do. And try to stay sober while at it Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

After all is said and done, I'm confident that ancient Macedonian would qualify as a language: there would be enough differences to support that. A language belonging to a Greco-Macedonian group, as I said before (and as linguist Brian Joseph said, "most likely not a Greek dialect on a par with Doric, Attic, etc."). Decius 20:55, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Theathenae, be careful: Attic amalos is an alpha euphonicum added to the stem mal, meaning 'soft', from PIE *mel, 'soft', while the Macedonian word is claimed by some to be from PIE *amma, from which comes Latin amare (to love). Decius 21:00, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why? Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, until a reference is provided, I will remove kompos. The Attic cognate in fact is gomphios (=molar tooth). Decius 21:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, you are totaly unaware of "γόμφος", of which "γομφίος" is the diminutive. I am not surprised. What surprises me a little bit is that you continue to preach nonsense on stuff you know nothing about. Times change, Decius. Your unscientific mumbo-jumbo will not go unchallenged any more. Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Huh? You must be the drunk guy today. Gomphos is listed right above gomphios in my book, and I've even mentioned the word gomphos on this very Talk Page before: see Talk:Ancient Macedonian language/archive1, section #7 near the top called "Greek cognates". And when I transliterate, I do not indicate accents (á,í,etc.), just to make people like you upset. Decius 02:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, if Macedonian amale is also a euphonic alpha added to mal, then it can be a cognate. But the references I've seen so far (not many, admittedly, on this particular etymology) say it's not from PIE *mel. Maybe dab can weigh in on this also: what does Pokorny say? Decius 21:22, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In my LS, there is argilla (or argila) listed as meaning, 'an underground chamber', occuring in a text (Ephorus ap. Strabo). Don't think it's Attic. Might even be a Macedonian word listed. Decius 21:53, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A few other Macedonian words are explicitly tagged as such, like κράββατος and σάρισσα. Template:Polytonic means 'white clay', 'potter's earth'.--Theathenae 21:58, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, what does "άργιλος" mean? (rhetorical question) Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't want to seem like "Mister-know-it-all" (because I do not know it all), but the only one that surprised me was Attic argos (idle), contracted from a-ergos (>alpha privativum + ergos 'work'). I knew about that word, but I didn't make the connection to Macedonian arkon. But I suppose it's a cognate. I knew about Attic amalos, but I admit I forgot to connect that to the Macedonian word. I think the given etymology for that Macedonian word (from PIE *am) caused me to overlook that. Decius 22:02, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

By now, you definitely look like "Mister-know-nothing" Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In that case, you would be something like "Mister-know-less-than-Mister-know-nothing", judging by your fantastic exposé of klinotrokhon. Decius 02:37, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Indeed. Arkon could well have been the name by which we knew argon had Macedonian won out over Attic for supremacy among the Greek dialects. What was your source for that amalē etymology?--Theathenae 22:12, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The suggestion that the Macedonian word is from PIE *am I took (actually dab took it, but I also assume responsibility) from Babaev, but note that Babaev merely echoed someone else. The etymology for Attic amalos (a+ PIE *mel) is from Liddel-Scott's. They are contradictory, and I don't know who is right. Decius 22:16, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, when you have two identical words that mean exactly the same thing, why make your life more difficult than it need be?--Theathenae 22:21, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are Babaev's academic credentials? (this is the second time I pose the question, I hope it will not go unanswered again) Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree they are most likely cognates. I really can't wait till more linguistic references are available on the internet concerning the ancient Macedonian material. I'm tired of this "dark ages" we are in. Decius 22:24, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Judging from that glossary, XMK looks like an archaic form of Greek with a few loanwords from neighbouring Thraco-Illyrian languages. Either that or it preserved more IE vocabulary than the southern Greek dialects, which had heavy pre-Hellenic (non-IE) substratal influences. Macedonian will probably be proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be archaic Greek within our lifetimes, just like Linear B was.--Theathenae 22:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually Ventris was totally convinced that Linear B would read Etruscan. So Decius' alcohol-fumed improvisations may actually prove a total jinx to his poorly disguised agenda Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm satisfied to view Macedonian as a semi-Greek language. That glossary to me shows enough differences to justify the term language. Decius 22:50, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Did you celebrate your satisfaction the usual way? (not that you need special reasons to drink) Chronographos 01:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I doubt anyone would question the Greekness of Macedonian were it not for the politics of the matter, both ancient and modern.--Theathenae 22:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One reason why I never incorporated the Babaev glossary is because I wanted to verify more of his info. I was satisfied to leave it as an external link. But it's bettter that dab incorporated it, because now we can hammer it out and improve it, and ultimately we've discarded the Babaev glossary and created a new one. We still have to verify more etymologies and cognates and sources. Decius 00:07, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, you came in here making various accusations and insults, none of which stick. Those transliterations may not be the best, but they are used in my American Heritage Dictionary, first edition. So even if they are wrong as you claim, it's not my problem. Decius 02:52, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've checked, and they are also used by Perseus : so are you being overly-pedantic, or just being a jerk? Decius 03:07, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As for Cyril Babaev, he is not a good source of info at all, and it is unfortunate that his glossary was the only Macedonian glossary on the web: . Email him and tell him how you feel directly: cyril@babaev.com. Babaev is no "ally" of mine, and I would have preferred not dealing with his website at all. Decius 04:04, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Generally though, the stuff he claims is substantiated by other references (Pokorny, etc.), but everything on Babaev's site has to be double-checked. Decius 04:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, where did you suddenly disappear to, Doc? It's amusing how you hurl out insults like "incompetent" when you have revealed your incompetence earlier by such exquisite examples as your klinotrokhon exposé and your irregular-aspiration-is-proved-by-Philotelas argument... Decius 04:41, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I stand by my appraisal of Theophrastus' hearsay botanics. And I never ever wrote anything about any "Philotelas". You are imagining things, Decius. As usual. Chronographos 10:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're probably going to make up some lie after the fact and say that you suddenly left after making your latest edits, etc.,---but the fact is, my responses came down right in front of your face, and you couldn't respond. Decius 08:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Decius, your continual alcoholic stupor has probably deprived you of all sense of time, place and especially judgement. I came home very late last night from my Med School class reunion, sat down at the PC for half an hour, took care of the downloads, email etc that had transpired during my absence, answered all pertinent points in this discussion, and went straight to bed as the sun was about to rise. So, according to you, I should have stayed online, sleepless on a Sunday morning, and waited for your esteemed person to respond to me. The fact that I did not, and went to sleep at 5 AM, proves that I am wrong and a liar to boot??? You are severely unbalanced, Decius, and that's all there is to it. To sum things up: I will be on Misplaced Pages on MY spare time, as fits MY schedule, I will respond WHENEVER I please, and THERE AIN'T NOTHIN' YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT EITHER. On to the substantive points:

The links on Babaev's site don't work as of 12:42 Greek time, Sunday, June 26th 2005. As of 7 or 8 hours ago, the Lidell-Scott search facility at Perseus found no entries under ankulos, ankos, ankistron, because there aren't any. The words proper are άγκιστρον etc. Indeed I doubt that any Greek word exists with the complex -nk- in it. So you can take the American Heritage Dictionary and shove it where it best pleases you. As dab pointed out to you, ν turns to γ before κ. Always. Therefore there is no Attic word ankalis: the word is agkalis and it means "bent arm" and by extension whatever can be held in bent arms. Hence the modern Greek usage: agkale/agkalia, a hug or an armful. Which is exactly how manual laborers harvest wheat: they hug as many wheatstalks as they can, and then cut them with the sickle. So don't you "email AHD" me. When Perseus comes back online at 7:00 Eastern Time, you can check for yourself. Otherwise I'll be happy to scan and post the relevant page(s) from my Liddell-Scott (Greek 4-volume Edition, 1948). Now it is conceivable that you think AHD a higher authority on Classics that Liddell-Scott. Which ties perfectly with your stated preference to urinating out of windows over the study of Greek.

I asked you why are the two amalos words considered to stem from two different roots and you failed to explain. It seems that, whenever something does not suit your outlandish, unscientific theories, a mysterious Passive Voice comes out of the blue and vindicates them. Not to mention that the "Attic"" cognate in your Glossary has an H (δασεία) which should not be there. Was this in AHD too? A dictionary that can't even spell? This is pathetic, Decius. Under different circumstances, I'd urge you to do better than that, but it seems you are incapable of doing better. Chronographos 10:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

O Chronográphe, to be fair, the traditional Roman transliteration of the -γκ- cluster is -nk-, not -gk-, as that is how it was pronounced. Hence ankylosis in English, rather than agkylosis. Also, the hamalē with the Template:Polytonic was put there by yours truly as that's what L&S gives as the Attic form (Template:Polytonic), immediately after the main entry Template:Polytonic, which I presume is the general (non-Attic) Greek form.--Theathenae 11:21, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are obviously right about "Roman transliteration", but this is not about how a Greek word is transliterated for use in the Latin language: this is about how a Greek word is transliterated so that people without Greek fonts may visualize the Greek word. And the proper pronunciation is "ang". If ank were pronounced ank in Greek, there would be no need for the k to uniformly turn into g before n. Remember the cardinal rule of Ancient Greek "spelling": you don't read what is written, you write what you pronounce. There is a (Thessalian, I believe) inscription that reads "εμ πόλει" (in the city). It is not a "spelling error". As for the amalos entry, I'm sorry but my 1948 LS print edition only lists it with a ψιλή. Since Perseus is down for maintenance right now, I cannot check if an entry with δασεία currently exists as well.Chronographos 11:40, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template:Polytonic, but I disagree with using the Latin alphabet to "visualise" Greek as all modern browsers are perfectly capable of displaying Greek and even polytonic characters. (There is a special Misplaced Pages polytonic template, which I am using here; check the formatting by opening an edit page.) As for Template:Polytonic, it is listed in my 1997 LS abridged edition, so its absence from your 1948 print edition is mysterious to say the least.--Theathenae 12:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. I write in Polytonic with pen and paper, but as Microsoft has made polytonic writing with a keyboard a twisted legerdemain, I prefer monotonic. The issue here is AHD's transliterating, not mine or yours. If you don't like it anymore than I do, <Decius mode> SEND THEM AN EMAIL AND FRIGGIN' COMPLAIN ABOUT IT </Decius mode> :-PPP Chronographos 12:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The nk vs. gk question is really a red herring. It matters for the alphabetical ordering, but that's about it. Indeed, I imported the list so it can be checked and improved. It was transliterated to begin with, but if you like to change it back to the Greek alphabet, that's fine with me. dab (ᛏ) 12:21, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dab, can you please talk some sense into Decius? And can we please have some decent conversation here? Decius is really impossible to deal with: one moment he says that this young Russian diplomat is not trustworthy, and five minutes later he proclaims that, given a difference of opinion between LSJ and Babaev, the issue is unresolved. If the opinion of an "untrustworthy source" is given equal gravity to the opinion of the standard Greek Lexicon, there is no way arguments can be advanced to a satisfactory conclusion. Chronographos 12:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But would we do that just for the Attic, or for the Macedonian too? Decius may not appreciate the Greek alphabet being used for XMK, and bring out his AK-47.--Theathenae 12:32, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Which brings up another grave concern of mine. I do not want to insinuate anything, but it will not be flattering to Misplaced Pages if someone had trouble with the law down the line. Clandestine arm dealers and possible Mafia connections is not exactly good PR Chronographos 12:39, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't get it. Of course XMK was written in the Greek alphabet as far as it was written at all, what else? Linear B? Babaev is really not an issue. I mean, he hacked together an online glossary, that's great, and for some time that was the only XMK resource on the internet. Why would we bash him because it is not up to academic standards? Nobody ever claimed it was. That was just our starting point. Now if everybody is really so confused by transliteration, let's just move back to the Greek alphabet, for the glossary. This is likely to cause more confusion, of course, since the Greeks (who seem to pass through here in droves) will just think beta is and eta is etc, but at least we'll be just giving the attested forms. Using one-to-one transliteration of the Greek alphabet, a gamma is just rendered as g, no matter if it corresponds to or not. dab (ᛏ) 12:57, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

also, transliteration is useful from keeping apart the language from the script. Note that I wrote the entire Arabic grammar article without using a single arabic letter, and that's not because I don't know how to. It's just that as soon as you use anything non-ascii, American users will come to the talk pages complaining about the funny foreign squiqqles (I shit you not). dab (ᛏ) 13:01, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree on all counts. And I am glad you write sanely, concisely, argue one point at a time, do not apply double standards, and do not rant every ten minutes in the stream-of-consciousness Decius mode. But then again you don't drink all day long. Or do you? :-P Chronographos 13:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ladies and gentlemen, see my Perseus link, which is up once again now. Each of those three words are transliterated by Perseus exactly as I transliterated them: ankulos, ankos, ankistron (and agkalis is transliterated as ankalis, and the Macedonian word is even mentioned in the Perseus text ). We are writing for English readers, and I never heard of "agkylosis" in English. Decius 18:39, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As I said, it's a matter of transliteration and phonology. We fully understand Greek phonology, and therefore we know that agk is rendered /ank/. We can assume as much for XMK, of course, but with an unknown language, it is more safe to use a lossless transliteration. Greek transliteration of alpha-gamma-kappa is not lossless. it collapses with hypothetical alpha-nu-kappa. Only, we know that alpha-nu-kappa will not occur, or be equivalent to alpha-gamma-kappa. Can we say as much for XMK? If in doubt, trasliterate without loss of information. dab (ᛏ) 19:00, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

When I search LSJ online with the "ank" string, only the word anakrites (!) comes up. LSJ's transliteration (e.g. ankalis) is unacceptable unless either one of two conditions exist: (1) readers are alerted that γ before κ is always transliterated as n, or (2) the Greek script is exhibited alongside in the printed edition. In any other case, your comments about "losslessness" apply fully. And I cannot accept that LSJ have been so sloppy. Therefore one of the two conditions must be actually present in print, possibly both. The fact that the online version does not meet them means that people ignorant of Greek (e.g. Decius) are handicapped. 212.251.109.253 21:47, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, exceptions can always be made. Decius 19:02, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chronographos, your gloss on Macedonian ankalis is unlikely: more likely it did not refer to an armful of anything, but to the bent sickle (PIE *ank): it is a singular noun. In Attic, the singular noun referred to the (bent) arm. Decius 19:59, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I fully agree with LSJ's comments on agkalis. I never said that it meant "an armful". I explained how the term evolved afterwards. Ignorant people, like you, should show express gratitude at such tutoring.

I noted with interest your failure to respond to my comments on your, hopefully improbable but not impossible, gang connections and assault weapons. Furthermore, connections between ex-communist-country gangs operating in the West and Islamic terrorism are well established, as they provide a channel for the clandestine sale of weaponry. I sincerely hope, for your sake and safety, that your gang comments have been merely in jest, and there is nothing at your home that would interest the Immigration and Naturalization Service. Or the police. Or the DHS for that matter. Is there?

Yeah, there might be. Decius 22:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You mean you are not sure, or just being evasive? I, for one, hope that your safety is not in jeopardy. Of course other people's safety does come first, and if you have done something illegal, then one can only wish that the law be enforced, however ruthlessly. Dura lex, sed lex.

I'm going to ask you this: do you agree to mutual civility between us from now on, or do you prefer mutual hostility? Decius 22:56, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This depends on whether you do have gang connections or other clandestine dealings. Olive branches often are veiled threats. Or overt ones.

I'm not making any threats, but I can't discuss my personal life. Whatever I did or didn't do, it's most likely in my past. Decius 23:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You mean you have a criminal record?

Get a room, guys.--Theathenae 23:17, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you were a woman interested in a relationship, then I would have to answer, but we are just two guys on Misplaced Pages. Decius 23:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Evasion, evasion, evasion. "Whatever I did or didn't do, it's most likely in my past". The art of saying nothing whilst appearing to be saying something. In other words: evasion.

Maybe you just like having an "enemy", so you can vent yourself. I don't need to vent myself in Misplaced Pages, and I would as good be civil towards you: but if you insist. Decius 23:41, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is not about anyone's needs, this is about the rule of law.

Okay, then: no, there is nothing that the law needs to concern itself with in my current or past situation. Decius 23:51, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This, if true, is much better.

I'm trying to find information on the circumstances under which the Pella katadesmos was found. How it was dated, etc. Decius 23:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

transliteration etc.

• adē "clear sky" (Attic αἴθρη aíthrē), adraia "bright weather" (Hes. Attic αἰθρία aithría, PIE *aidh-)

something went wrong here. The point of mentioning "Hes." is that Hesychius said:

• adē: aithra
• adraia: aithrios

i.e. aithra is a translation, by Hesychius, we are not claiming adē is identical to aithra (although it is probably related). We then translate Hesychius' translations into English, aithra as "clear sky" and aithria as "bright weather". If you fiddle with the glossary, please make sure you understand what's already there in the first place. dab (ᛏ) 19:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just so we all know, that was Theathenae's doing: 20:47 25 Jun. Decius 19:24, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I know I know. It's not a disaster either. It's just not clear why the "Hes." is there anymore. dab (ᛏ) 19:31, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My apologies. I ripped Template:Polytonic from LS which is listed as an earlier Attic form, but you're quite right, it would've been Template:Polytonic by the time of Hesychius. I somehow figured that only the second word was his, as the Hes. tag was right at the end of the original entry. As for adraia, are you certain it is the exact translation of the masculine Template:Polytonic, rather than the feminine Template:Polytonic? The former is the adjective meaning clear, bright, fair or in the open air, whereas the latter is the feminine noun which actually means fine weather or open sky. May we see the original manuscript?--Theathenae 19:37, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

ok, even my original entry may have been wrong. I have to check Hesychius. All I know is that Pokorny links both words to aidh "to burn". dab (ᛏ) 20:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The joys of Google. For those of you who can read modern Greek, there's a guy who has traced sarissa back to Template:Polytonic 'to show the teeth' (esp. in scorn or malice) or 'to sweep clean/away' and abagna ('rose') back to Template:Polytonic 'delicate, pretty, dainty, soft, luxurious'. I would add that the -agna in abagna reminds me of Template:Polytonic 'pure, chaste, unsullied'. I guess a rose is all of those things.--Theathenae 20:30, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Doric abós meant 'young, luxuriant' and LS says it may be connected to abros (delicate, graceful, etc.). Decius 20:53, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, this guy actually writes it αβός, but my Doric is rather sketchy so I opted for LS Attic. Damn Koine. In that case, abagna is almost certainly derived from Template:Polytonic, possibly compounded with my suggestion Template:Polytonic.--Theathenae 21:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As long as we're listing equivalent forms: Macedonian kombous<>Attic gomphious (masc. acc. pl.). Decius 20:37, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

this guy seems to have a few sources that we are missing so far. Especially kebala is interesting (another example of the Berenike-law). He also seems to have a better text of the Pellas katadesmos (?). In Greece, even philologistts feel compelled to rant against the "apologetes of Panslavism"? What is panslavism, and what has it got to do with XMK I wonder? dab (ᛏ) 20:54, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

He's not in Greece, he's in Melbourne, Australia. And even philologists can get emotional sometimes. :)--Theathenae 21:05, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Είναι βέβαια αλήθεια ότι από την αρχαία μακεδονική διάλεκτο διασώθηκε ελάχιστος μόνο αριθμός λέξεων, περί τις 350, από τις οποίες οι 200 είναι ανθρωπωνύμια, όπως Αμύντας, Αλκέτας, Αρχέλαος, Φιλώτας, Λάγος, Εύδαμος, Μαχάτας, Βερενίκη, Θεσσαλονίκη (όλα ελληνικά), και οι υπόλοιπες κοινά ονόματα, όπως ακρουνοί, κάραβος, κεβαλά, πεζέταιρος, νικάτωρ, αβρούτες, άβαγνα (στη συντριπτική τους πλειοψηφία ελληνικές λέξεις και αυτές), κι αυτό χάρις στη μανία του λεξικογράφου του 5ου αι. μ.Χ., Ησύχιου

I've mentioned kebala before: see Talk:Macedon. Decius 20:58, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, that slipped my mind. In fact, if we have Berenikē, but kebala what does that tell us about the Doricity of XMK? Shouldn't it be either Berenika or kebalē? dab (ᛏ) 20:59, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I saw the form kebale (don't know what value the 'e' had, it was transliterated) given on a website, but I can't vouch for it. Decius 21:03, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

:o) in fact, I begin to believe they were Dorians who had re-voiced their aspirates (and no, Ch'graphos didn't bribe me with alcohol). The name would have been Berenika, but was changed back to -e as a matter of fact when Attic became the dernier cri. This isn't compatible with the katadesmos, which is un-XMK in any case. This would mean that any word containing kh, ph or th must be foreign to XMK (i.e. chuck away all the names with Th, Ph etc., they're just Greek). We really need to find a case of intervocalic s! dab (ᛏ) 21:12, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

How about XMK just never got round to devoicing and (re)aspirating the PIE consonants that were devoiced and aspirated elsewhere, rather than being a form of Doric that had its aspirates revoiced? In other words, truly archaic Greek.--Theathenae 21:37, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

it wouldn't be Greek then, but "Graeco-Macedonian", i.e. the remaining Greek would have done a common innovation. That's also possible, of course. They would not be Dorians, in that case. We just don't know enough. dab (ᛏ) 21:45, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thaethenae, that is what I've been arguing here from the beginning. The sound-differences are archaic and were retained in Macedonian, a language belonging to a Greco-Macedonian group. It is not unlikely, and I don't know why some Greeks abhor the idea (irrational reaction). Decius 21:48, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Did they have to speak a Doric Greek dialect in order for one to connect to them? No. I can connect to them regardless of what language they spoke. I'm not a xenophobe. The words known from Macedonian suggest something beyond a Doric dialect. Decius 21:50, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it was Doric either. I was thinking more along the lines of North-Western Greek, which was related to but not quite the same as Doric Greek. "Both NW Greek and Doric are in some respects more archaic than the other Greek dialects." In other words, more IE, as the other Greek dialects arrived much earlier and absorbed significant pre-Hellenic substratal elements. I guess that begs the question, how do you define "Greek"? Perhaps the traditional definition is no longer valid. I'd say that Macedonian was definitely Hellenic in the Indo-European sense, and "Greek" would've probably remained pretty damn similar were it not for the non-IE influences.--Theathenae 22:02, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to see this article expanded Proto-Greek language. Decius 22:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Whoa, guys. Panayiotis from Melbourne gives ακρουνοί for our arounoi 'boundary stones'. Was this just a typo? Because if it is actually akrounoi, that would immediately invoke Template:Polytonic 'field', which is exactly what these stones would have been used to divide.--Theathenae 21:15, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what the original manuscript says nor did I add the current spelling to the article, but akrounoi to me recalls akro- (PIE *ak, summit), which could mean 'edge, boundary', often prefixed to other words (cf. Akro-lithos, 'ends made of stone'). Decius 21:20, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You're right, Decie. I thought of that immediately after my last post, but was thrown off by XMK's wacky voicing patterns. Template:Polytonic 'at the end (or extremity)', from Template:Polytonic 'point, edge'.--Theathenae 21:15, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

akrounoi it is. arounoi is my emendation of ahrounoi of Babaev's page, which is probably a typo (I didn't know what to make of ahrounoi, see above somewhere :\ ). dab (ᛏ) 21:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On the subject of the glossary again, Perseus has a lot of these Macedonian words in its database: I've found ankalis, abagna, akrounoi (that spelling, and it is related to akros as I guessed), argipous (Mac.=aetos), arkon, baskioi, kombous, sarissa (of course, common), kanadoi, adis, danos (>Macedonian word mentioned by Plutarch according to Perseus), and no doubt others, but I'll check later. Decius 28 June 2005 06:53 (UTC)

Berenike dates back to the time of Alexander the Great (was a common name among the Ptolemies who succeeded him, etc.), so extremely doubtful that the Pella Katadesmos is Macedonian (lacking voiced aspirates, etc.), and it's no wonder that Borza and others reject it, I assume (one of Borza's latest works is from 1999, so he would have known of the katadesmos). Borza by the way is in fact a highly regarded authority in Macedonian studies, not just linguistics. His works are even referenced as authoritative by Errington who I mentioned before, among others. So Borza carries as much weight as Hammond in the field: Borza of course has also criticized Hammond and is directly opposed to him. I'm going to look for works by both authors and compare. It seems, judging by criticisms I've read, that Hammond has also made contradictory statements in the manner of Errington (no concerted conspiracy going on, it's apparently a tendency among many of these individuals). Decius 28 June 2005 06:44 (UTC)

Phila, again

moved to Talk:Pella katadesmos. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 07:17 (UTC)

Sensational new find!

This just in: an engraved stone stele found last week at the Dion excavation, which has been going on for several years under Prof. Pandermalis of the Aristotle University of Macedonia. Work on deciphering is being done very actively, but nothing they would tell me about. I cannot make anything out of the text myself, but I think I can discern some IE elements. Here is the text as emailed to me, have a go at it everyone:

ΑΛΣΑΛΥΤΣΥΝΤΕΥΥΝΗΑΙΔΥΚ
ΣΙΤΕΙΥΒΙΡΕΑΜΕΑΠΡΙΜΕΣΤΕΦΕΡΙΚΙΡΕΑ
ΑΛΟΣΥΝΤΕΥΠΙΚΣΟ
ΤΙΑΜΔΑΤΒΕΕΠΣΙΣΥΝΟΙΝΙΚ
ΔΑΡΣΑΣΤΙΙΝΥΤΙΚΕΡΝΙΜΙΚ
ΒΡΕΙΣΑΠΛΕΚΑΡΝΥΜΑΝΥΜΑΙΕΙ
ΝΥΜΑΝΥΜΑΙΕΙΝΥΜΑΝΥΜΑΝΥΝΑΙΕΙ
ΧΙΠΥΛΤΑΥΣΙΔΡΑΓΟΣΤΕΑΔΙΝΤΕΙ
ΜΙΑΜΙΝΤΕΣΚΔΕΟΚΧΙΤΕΙ
ΕΣΥΝΣΑΤΙΣΠΥΝΚΕΣΙΜΤΑΚΥΜ
ΑΛΟΙΥΒΙΡΕΑΜΕΑΣΥΝΤΕΥΦΙΡΕΑ
ΛΟΑΛΟΣΥΝΤΙΑΡΑΣΙΕΥΠΙΚΑΣ
ΤΙΑΜΔΑΤΒΕΕΠΣΘΣΥΝΤΒΟΙΝΙΚ
ΔΑΡΣΑΣΤΙΙΝΥΤΙΚΕΡΝΙΜΙΚ
ΒΡΕΙΣΑΠΛΕΚΙΔΑΡΝΥΜΑΝΥΜΑΙΕΙ
ΝΥΜΑΝΥΜΝΥΜΑΝΥΜΑΝΥΝΑΙΕΙ
ΧΙΠΥΛΤΑΥΣΙΔΡΑΓΟΣΤΕΑΔΙΝΤΕΙ
ΜΙΑΜΙΝΤΕΣΚΔΕΟΚΧΙΤΕΙ

All the excavators would tell me is that the obvious repetitive form suggests that the text is probably a (religious?) hymn or invocation. I am totally at a loss with this text, but I fear it will wipe out all previous theories about the Ancient Macedonian Language, having been found at the slopes of Mt. Olympus, in the great religious center of Dion Chronographos 28 June 2005 09:55 (UTC)

this is a hoax, right? or written in drunken stupor? probably by Dionysiophon celebrating he had got rid of that old hag Dagima. dab (ᛏ) 28 June 2005 10:04 (UTC)

I'm not the alcoholic around here, Dab! Can you make anything of it? Don't call it a hoax just because it does not fit your preconceived notions :-P Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:09 (UTC)

What do you make out of it? I'm willing to listen to your opinion on it. Decius 28 June 2005 10:12 (UTC)

ΣΥΝΤ reminds me of Latin "sunt", so it looks IE. Other than that, nothing. You? Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:19 (UTC)

ok guys, I deciphered it, and it's Slavic, as evidenced by primeste and boinik. :) 130.60.142.65 28 June 2005 12:12 (UTC)

first, there is the refrain, repeated twice, almost exactly:

tiamdat beepsi sunt boinik

darasti inutik ernimik

breisa plekidar

numanumaieie numanumaiei numanumanunaiei

khipultausi dragostea dintei

miamintesk deok khitei

the "verses" each mention Pherikirea and Pikasso.

alo salut sunt eu unēai duksite rogiu burea mea primeste Pherikirea

alo alo sunt eu Pikasso

aloiu bireamea sunt eu Pherikirea

alo alo sunt iarasi eu Pikasso

Note there are no omegas, and no etas except for the one on the first line. The only phi is in Pherikirea, and the only theta is apparently a mistake since in the repetition, a iota corresponds. 130.60.142.65 28 June 2005 12:39 (UTC)

Decius-Chronographos flamewar ensues

Looks like "Dragostea Din Tei"---Alo, Alo, sunt Picasso...Decius 28 June 2005 10:22 (UTC)

Really? Hey, I love that song! You don't say it's the lyrics, do you?!? Are you quite sure you are not making a mistake? Did you parse it word by word? Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:30 (UTC)

No, I just recognized the lyrics. Decius 28 June 2005 10:31 (UTC)

Mind if I erase it now? Decius 28 June 2005 10:38 (UTC)

Why are you not answering my question? What is Romania's top contribution to 20th (and 21st) century culture? Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:39 (UTC)

My dick, and the way it slaps people across the face. Decius 28 June 2005 10:41 (UTC)

Oh, well... Still I think "Dragostea Tin Dei" takes top honors. That American archaeologist girl, Bernice, who works up in Dion, must have pulled a fast one on me just to embarrass me! Or maybe she likes me. She is gorgeous, you know. I think I'll call her ;-) Chronographos 28 June 2005 10:45 (UTC)

Get a room, guys. http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/numa --Theathenae 28 June 2005 11:07 (UTC)

Oh, and btw, O-Zone aren't Rumanian, they're Moldovan.--Theathenae 28 June 2005 11:13 (UTC)

Isn't Bernice a piece of work? She was laughing so hard she practically couldn't talk on the phone! She promised she will make it up to me. What did she mean? ;-) Anyhow, Theathenae, since Decius is too angry to answer, what do you consider Romania's top contribution to 20th century culture? I would say the ILLUSTRIOUS, MELLIFLUOUS, INGENIOUS mega-composer George Enescu, but Decius has a different taste in music (if one could call this excrement "music") Chronographos 28 June 2005 11:21 (UTC)

I know O-Zone are Moldovan, but wasn't it the great Romanian orator Isocratescu who stated that "a Romanian is whoever partakes in Romanian culture"? I happen to agree with Isocratescu: only a Hitler would insist on genetic purity (whatever that may mean) Chronographos 28 June 2005 11:29 (UTC)

Was Isocratescu's "culture" precisely equivalent to the Greeks' Template:Polytonic?--Theathenae 28 June 2005 11:31 (UTC)

I should imagine it is, but who knows what Romanians actually mean when they speak? They are mostly drunk. They drink to to forget. Chronographos 28 June 2005 11:41 (UTC)

And why do Greeks drink? to forget how hairy they are? Decius 28 June 2005 11:51 (UTC)

Oooohhhh, that is a low blow, Decius! How very unbecoming a Roman. But apparently tall blonde Nordic girls like it, so they flock to our islands looking for it. So who are we to complain? Chronographos 28 June 2005 12:03 (UTC)

Of course, Nordic girls are attracted to all kinds of people. See also:. Decius 28 June 2005 12:10 (UTC)

There is an obvious racist element in your response, Decius, so I decline to dignify it with a substantive answer! Chronographos 28 June 2005 12:17 (UTC) (BTW what time is it over there? Are you up early or up late? Don't you have to go to work? You are employed, aren't you?)

Hey man, you started this. I'm just here slinging the insults that you seem to be demanding from me. Decius 28 June 2005 12:22 (UTC)