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Ireland B‑class High‑importance

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Irish republicanism B‑class Top‑importance

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Military history: British / European Start‑class

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Rebellion outside Dublin

heard recently the there may have been upwards of 2000 men in wexford (a freind of a freind cited these books as souces....); Wexford in the Rare oul' times by Nicholas Furlong/Enniscorthy 2000 by P Rossiter and Na daoine Loch Garman may 1916.. men took both wexford and enniscorthy towns.... amnt sure but it might be worth checkin up on.... --83.45.174.74 15:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

ISBN's for bibliography

I haven't got the ISBNs of the books listed here. (The copies I have are all first editions without modern ISBNs.) I will add in the ISBNs as I get them. If anyone else has them, feel free to add them in. JTD 02:19 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

I added the ISBN for the Lyons book, but I don't have the other two. I could add several other books on the topic if that would be helpful. On another note, does anyone think that an entry on the Easter Rising without a single mention of the Irish Republican Brotherhood is somewhat remiss? It was that organization (more under the leadership of Tom Clarke and Sean MacDiarmida than anyone else) that really planned the rising. -R. fiend

Cleanup tag

I have put the cleanup flag on this article because I think it reflects the traditional British view of the rising e.g. if only they had not executed the leaders things might have worked out very differently. It would help if it took account of Fay and Burton's work e.g. that hostility to the rising among the Dublin population has been exagerrated, or that while the rising presented major military problems it was not an obvious piece of lunacy or intended as a "blood sacrifice", the British troops actually did quite well to defeat the rising in only a week. PatGallacher 00:07, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. No one can say what might have happened if the Brits hadn't executed the leaders, but the article doesn't really dwell on that. Robert Kee, for instance, postulates that the support for Sinn Fein in 1918 was less about the population being appalled at the executions of the leaders so much as their reslove against conscription and the division of Ireland. While the antipathy for the general population for the rising and its leaders wasn't universal, it was pretty widespread, which is hardly surprising given the number of Irishmen serving in the British army at the time, as well as the fact that the rising resulted mostly in the death of Irishmen, not British soldiers. Likewise there was still substantial support for and belief in Home Rule. Certainly Pearse, at least, did view the rising as a blood sacrifice, and while other leaders may have hoped or victory, once it began they new quite well it was not feasible from a military standpoint; Connolly himself said they didn't stand a chance. Roughly a thousand under-equipped, ill-trained men never did stand a chance at victory. Had they got the entirety of the Irish Volunteers to turn out they might have played havoc with British rule in Ireland foir a time, but hey knew that wasn't going to happen, particularly after MacNeill's countermand. I'm going to remove the cleanup tag, though you should feel free to edit the article as you see fit. -R. fiend 01:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Rm Boer paragraph?

Do we really need a whole paragraph on this? Maybe a sentence would be ok, but it look rather irrelevent to me. Jdorney 14:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

US reaction to the Rising

Aside from intervening in de Valera's execution, does anybody know what the US reaction was? Did they openly criticise it? El Gringo 02:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The only surviving leader(Eamonn de Valera) of the revolution went on to organise the war of independence? Is this really acurate? FE

Surely its also inaccutate to call the rising the earliest socialist rising in europe - even if it was - and i don't think so -wouldn't the Commune have more of a right to that claim?

Added image of military forces

Its a self made image, and its not to any particular scale- its only to give a military view of what took place. Picture paints a thousand words etc. Please redo it/correct if you think necessary. Thanks. Fluffy999 22:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice pic, Fluffy! Just a couple or three thoughts:

Should it maybe be titled 'Placements of Rebel forces and British troops...'?

Should the Shelbourne be filled in in black (British Army point)?

Should Trinity College be named?

Scolaire 19:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks :) Yes its fine to rename it whatever is most appropriate for the timeperiod. I've only seen 2 maps of the engagements so you could be right on the other points too. Thanks Fluffy999 20:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Disputed comment

It stands as the last military clash on British soil. What is 'military clash' defined as? What about the War of Independence and the Troubles, to name the first two examples that come to mind? --Kwekubo 18:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

...and what is "British soil" anyway? It could just as easily refer to the Fanklands/Malvinas in the 1980's. I've deleted that sentence.

Scolaire 22:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd say calling Ireland "British Soil" is just trying to be inflammatory and start an argument.Easter rising

Nothern Ireland as far as i am concerend is British soil and that the Easter Rising was a two-bit rebillion, The troubles were all the fault of IRA/Republicans who killed thousands of innocent people for what, an agreement which has made a sucker out of everyone. (Gareth McClelland) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.80.61 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for that, Gareth. Scholarly debate is always welcome. Scolaire 18:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what a scholarly opinion that was. Run along, lad, you're late for your UVF meeting. ---Charles 18:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course the less diplomatic option is that Misplaced Pages is not a blog (and thus to erase such rants). Djegan 18:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I was informed by an administrator that doing so would be a violation of policy---but, trust me, I am tempted to do so anyway. ---Charles 18:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

James Connolly & The Citizen Army

In his book "The Life and Times of James Connolly" historian C Desmond Greaves disputes, with evidence, two assertions in your articles.

Firstly, the idea that if the Citizen Army had have started a seperate rising it would have been a "fiasco". This is not a historical fact. A few years earlier James Connolly had helped organise a successful general strike in Dublin and elsewhere (the "Lock-out") against the most powerful Empire in the world at that time. Greaves describes the Citizen Army as an armed off-shoot of that Labour movement. We can never know if Connolly could have mobilized a mass labour movement behind his own Citizen Army rising. But if he could, who's to say it would not have been successful? Connolly's aim was different to the IRB and the Nationalists, a socialist revoloution.

Secondly, Greaves claims that Roger Casement did not arrive in Ireland to stop the rising, but to warn that a rising should not be attempted if it depended SOLELY on arms arriving from Germany. Certainly Connolly did not believe the rising depended only on that armed shipment.

Opening paragraph

"The Easter Rising (Irish: Éirí Amach na Cásca) was a rebellion staged in Ireland against British rule on Easter Monday, April 24, 1916. Despite its military failure, it can be judged as being a significant stepping-stone in the eventual creation of the Irish Republic. The rising was the most significant since the rebellion of 1798. It was an attempt by militant republicans to violently force independence from the United Kingdom. The Irish Republican revolutionary attempt occurred from April 24 to April 30, 1916, in which the Irish Republican Brotherhood ..."

There is a good deal of repitition in this short paragraph:

The date, April 24th, appears twice

That it was against British rule is stated twice

That it was staged by republicans is stated three times

There is also an error of fact: The IRB was involved in the planning of the Rising, but did not "attempt" it, "joined by a part of the Irish Volunteers and the smaller Irish Citizen Army."

My edit is an attempt to make the opening paragraph more readable. It is not an attempt to introduce any POV. Feel free to re-word it, but please do not simply revert, as that achieves nothing.

Scolaire 16:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that is greatly improved. It flows better with the rewording and the removal of the repetitious dates and phrases. ---Charles 17:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Aw, shucks! Thanks!  :-D Scolaire 23:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The Proclamation and the infobox

For want of a more suitable image, I have moved the pic of the Proclamation into the infobox. I have also shortened the caption, as the reading of the Proclamation is dealt with in the article itself. Personally, I would prefer to have something like a photo of O'Connell St. after the fighting, if one could be found or uploaded. Scolaire 19:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph (continued)

So that the opening paragraph becomes the opening paragraph, I have given the second paragraph a title. This puts it under the table of contents and into the article proper. I would have no problem with the title being changed. It was the best I could think of. I have moved the third paragraph down into the "1918 General Election" section because it deals with later events. I've also removed all links from this particular paragraph because everything in it has already been linked to above. Scolaire 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

No, I'm sorry, but the IRB were not combatants in this (see the first "Opening Paragraph" above). The IRB was a secret, oathbound society devoted to bringing about an uprising. It was in no sense an army, it did not have a uniform and its members carried guns only as members of some other organization e.g. the Volunteers. IRB has to go.
The RIC were involved because they were attacked by Volunteers in Ashbourne, so I suppose you have to allow them as combatants, but I don't remember anything about the DMP engaging the Republicans in battle in Dublin. In the absence of some sort of citation, I think the DMP has to go as well.
Scolaire 18:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But members of the IRB fought in the rising even if not under the IRB banner. Dermo69

So did members of the Catholic Church and members of the Trade Union Congress. I can't be bothered with an edit war, but the IRB does not belong in there under combatants. Scolaire 12:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The IRB was the organisation behind the easter rising.It infiltrated the Irish volunteers and included important figures such as thomas clarke.Its save to say the IRB was a part of the rising.You're probably right about the DMP though.I'll check that one out Dermo69

YOU people are both mistaken, have u even read the proclaimation the most important document of the rising which clearly states "having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation THE IRISH REPUBLICAN BROTHERHOOD" I think the proclaimation clearly says that the IRB were involved as combatants.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.150.65 (talk • contribs)

I am well aware of the role of the IRB in the Rising, and the acknowlegement of them in the Proclamation. What I'm saying is that the IRB planned the Rising, and a planner is not a combatant. The combatants were the soldiers (i.e. Volunteers and Citizen Army) who fought on behalf of the IRB, if you like. Thus, George W. Bush is not a combatant in the Iraq War, neither is the American Government, or American oil interests — only the American military (and its allies) are combatants. This is not to diminish the role of the IRB in the Rising, just to define it precisely.
Scolaire 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Irish Republicanism infobox

As I've said elsewhere, the infobox is beautifully laid out, and contains a mass of information. Unfortunately, when there are other graphics in the article it pushes the text down and makes the article less readable. What I've done here, as with Easter Proclamation, is to try to leave in everything that is directly relevant to this article, and still preserve the broader view that it was obviously meant to convey. I hope i have succeeded reasonably well.
Scolaire 17:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies. I was trying to fix the page when my crappy internet link went down. Where an infobox affects the location of images, the standard solution applied all over WP is simple: change the image placement from right to left (or vice versa if the box is on the left). Because of the nature of the template a reader should be able to link into a lot more than just the piece you left here. I think it is important that people can use the whole template to get access to all the information. The box is designed as a form of crossroads from which a reader can go to everything from political topics to biographies to artistic aspects to links to other strands in Irish history, whether Unionism, Monarchism, etc. So readers should be able in one straight link, for example, to go from here to songs about the Rising (we need some articles about them), or to Sinn Féin, or by jumping to the forthcoming Nationalist template to the IIP, etc etc.

BTW one minor point: WP has a policy of using contemporaneous names. So one doesn't write St. Petersburg when discussing a time period when the city was called Leningrad, or vice versa. Similarly, given that in 1916 the name used was Kingstown, not Dun Laoghaire, normally we'd use a pipe to Kingstown and then have in brackets "later called Dun Laoghaire". That is because all the contemporary documents would use that name and so if someone reading the article here then read contemporary documents and weren't au fait with the name change they might be confused by why the names in our article didn't feature in the article. Similarly references before its name change speak of Rhodesia not Zimbabwe, Constantinople not Istanbul, Sackville Street and Rutland Square not O'Connell Street and Parnell Square. And if tomorrow it was decided to rename Parnell Square to say de Valera Square, references up to pre-tomorrow's date would use the contemporaneous name.

I hope that helps. FearÉIREANN\ 22:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

From the template talk page, I gather: "It is a draft. Drafts put everything in and then edit them." I am therefore reverting to my own shortened version until the draft is ready to be put in this article.
Scolaire 23:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The infobox is now of suitable size (and I presume it's not going to grow again), so I am happy to replace it.
Scolaire 17:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction about partition?

The Background sections says the Home Rule Act 1914 introduced partition, but the article on it says that the 1914 Act was for one Home Rule Parliament for the whole island. And that partition didn't become an issue until later - this was my understanding. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 18:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Home Rule Bill 1912 was for the whole island of Ireland. By the time it was enacted, in 1914, it excluded the six counties of the north-east. This is discussed in the The shaping of Partition section of the Home rule Act 1914 article. Scolaire 20:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The intro to the Home Rule Act 1914 is a bit vague about it. I'll leave a note on its talk page. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 20:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

militant?

the irish citizens who rose up to oust the british cannot be referred to as "militants". they were irish citizens who took up arms to free their homeland from english rule. to me they are the same as the Palestinians who defend thier homeland from Zionist occupation. Keltik31 13:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"Militant" simply means "taking up arms". In my mind, at least, it has no negative connotations. "Citizen soldier", on the other hand, is just an odd phrase that is out of synch with the rest of the article. As someone who is proud of my country's militant past, I would prefer to see it left the way it was. Scolaire 22:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

broken link

the link to the essay is broken, I'm pretty sure this :http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/personal/ is where it is now 139.168.142.218 21:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit of intro

Quote: "Despite its military failure, some judge it as being a significant stepping-stone towards Irish independence. Some consider the facts that the Third Home Rule Act had already been passed in 1914 and that the Irish Parliamentary Party already had an overwhelming dominant electoral position in most of Ireland as evidence that Irish home rule was inevitable and the Rising was a stepping-stone towards ensuring that it was preceeded by extensive violence."

Does anybody else feel like me that this is POV masquerading as NPOV? Firstly, the Home Rule Act and the IPP are dealt with in the very next paragraph, and the what-ifs are dealt with ad nauseam later on; secondly, the original paragraph said that the Rising was a stepping-stone toward the Irish Republic, not towards independence — the Home Rule Act would never have led to the establishment of a republic; and most importantly, the whole drift of the edit is that the 1916 leaders knew that independence was inevitable, and just wanted to make sure that there was "extensive violence" first.
I propose to revert this edit unless someone gives me a compelling reason not to.
Scolaire 09:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Revert away, if you haven't already. -R. fiend 13:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

"This indignation led to a radical shift in public perception of the Rising and within three years of its failure, the separatist Sinn Féin party won an overwhelming majority in a general election, supporting the creation of an Irish Republic and endorsing the actions of the 1916 rebels".

This is an unclear statement Sinn Fein won a majority of Westminister seats under the first past the post system, however Sinn Fein did not gain the support of the majority of Irish voters.

--Boz 12:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"Execution of all leaders"

I changed the entry in the result section from "execution of all leaders" with a note about de Valera being the exception, to simply "execution of leaders", without the note on Dev. Defining "leader" can be tricky. Certainly Dev was the highest ranking officer not to be executed (with the possible exeception of The O'Rahilly, who died in the fighting), but if you're going to say he was a leader because he was a battalion commandant, then we might have to call some other unexecuted officers leaders as well (such as Cathal Brugha, perhaps). That's the problem with overuse of infoboxes, they don't leave room for any complexity; things can't always be summed up accurately in a few words. Also, to say it was solely Dev's ties to the US that saved him is perhaps a bit controversial. -R. fiend 14:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Some would say that the principal leaders were those who signed the proclamation?86.42.197.249 10:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Sure, in which case the statement about de Valera being the exception is untrue, as he was not a signatory. -R. fiend 15:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Infiltrating Sinn Féin etc

A large part of this article does not deal with the Easter rising at all. I think this is probably due to the history of the article - what began as a couple of short sentences became relatively lengthy sections. However, I think the time has come to replace these sections with a more pertinent discussion of the aftermath and legacy of the Rising. Scolaire 08:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree and think it has slipped from a B rating. Very little on the deal(s) with the Germans (the Aud didn't just turn up), nor on Pearse's idea of a healthy blood sacrifice (are we too PC to admit that today?), nor on the involvement of poets like Desmond Fitzgerald, nor on other revolts in WWI such as the Arab Revolt sponsored by the British at the same time. Did no-one in 1916 see the contradiction of support from both imperial Germany and Irish socialists?86.42.197.249 10:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

From the authorities' point of view?

"From the authorities' point of view, given the circumstances of the time and the nature of the offences, it is difficult to see that there was any other appropriate punishment. Britain was fighting a war on an unprecedented scale, a war in which many thousands of Irish volunteers in the British forces had already lost their lives." This sounds more like an opinion, at least the way it is written now. Is it at all possible to perhaps get some source on this, and reference it as being the position held by one or more of the British individuals involved? Or perhaps this section might be changed to read: "Although most historians agree that the decision to execute the suspected leaders backfired, it is unsurprising that they chose to do so given the circumstances of the time and the nature of the offenses. Britain was fighting a war on an unprecedented scale, a war in which many thousands of Irish volunteers in the British forces had already lost their lives..." To me, this sounds like more of a description of the authorities' thought processes, and less an opinion about what should have been done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.190.203 (talk) 02:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. And in the absence of any citations, its probably OR as well. Scolaire 06:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

• the stuff afterwards about how the Irish population was initially completely opposed to the rising and then suddenly became Republican after the executions afterwards is a bit of a hackneyed truism as well. Obviously the republican minded proportion of the population weren't particularly vocal in the immediate aftermath, but there wasn't a mass road to Damascus-like experience of the executions and internment - the sentiment was already there for the most part. Obviously this all needs evidence, which I will try and pull out if I've got the time, hence why I'm writing this on the talk page rather than the article. Andehandehandeh 11:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

IRB and the Volunteers

The rising was not a coup de main by the IRB on the Volunteers. The IRB and been involved in the establishment of the Volunteers from the start. Please provide sources which dispute this. --Domer48 (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Some eople who were involved in the establishment of the Volunteers were also members of the IRB. This is not the same as being established by the IRB> Of the 10 people at the inaugural meeting, only half were IRB members. Of the 30 on the original Provisional committee, only 12 were (though a few others later joined, such as Pearse). R. fiend (talk) 16:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The IRB knew from before their formation what they planned to do with the Volunteers! --Domer48 (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"...the hidden hand behind both the formation of the Irish Voulnteers in 1913 and the planning of the Rising..." Now it is this statement which has to be addressed. You need a source which disputes the reference. --Domer48 (talk) 16:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the latter part is certainly true, but the former is a pretty general and unspecific statement. The IRB was involved with the Volunteers from the beginning. I don't dispute, but the statement that the IRB created the Volunteers in simply false. You are correct in that they knew what they planned to do from their inception (and before, as much as one can have plans for an as-of-yet non-existent organization), but that is not the same as being the creation of the IRB, which is what the article now states.

Also note that Hobson was on the Supreme Council of the IRB (until he resigned in 1914) and was on the Provisional Committee of the Volunteers (one of the only to hold both positions), and was involved in the formation of the Volunteers from the earliest stages, so he is about as good a source as one can hope for. -R. fiend (talk) 17:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The pretence for establishing the Volunteers was in responce to the establishment of the UVF. Who prompted O'Neill to establish the Volunteers? The IRB. O'Neill was a respectable figure head, a cover if you will, or to be blunt, a patsy. The IRB from its inception had only to wait for the oppertunity, and long before the start of the war, they knew it was coming. This is not my opinion, so if I have to reference this let me know? --Domer48 (talk) 18:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• "The IRB seized its chance to capitalise on this sense of identity when Eoin MacNeill, vice-president of the Gaelic League, wrote an article in the organ of the Gaelic League, An Cliadheamh Soluis, in October 1913, proposing that a body of Southern Volunteers be established on the same line as the Ulster Volunteers. Using the respected name of MacNeill as a front, the IRB organised a meeting to which all parties were invited, at the Rotunda Hall, Dublin, on November 25." (The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33)

I would certainly read from that that the IRB were behind the formation of the Volunteers, and that MacNeill was a figurehead. Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Scolaire (talk). Tim Pat Coogan in 1916: The Easter Rising, even suggests that the article he wrote may have been prompted by them as well. --Domer48 (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Planning the Rising

I have placed some of the text in the form of a footnote. I did this for two reasons, the first being that it is not relevant to the planning of the Rising, the other being it is unreferenced, and liable to be removed. The material I added, is very relevant and must have been omitted. Unfortunately there are a number of red links. All I can suggest is we remove the links, or if editors are knowledgeable try to establish the links. --Domer48 (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of footnotes, there are currently nine references to page 67 of Eoin Neeson. I think it would be better if the details of the publication were moved to the Bibliography section and the references changed to "Neeson, page 67" or the appropriate page if different. Scolaire (talk) 20:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that Scolaire (talk) will fix it now. --Domer48 (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Scolaire (talk) this is the only way I know how to reference, do you have a link to other formatts? --Domer48 (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the only way to do it is to type "<ref>Neeson, page 67</ref>" etc. for each of the refs, instead of the "name=Neeson" format that you're currently using. See Free Derry where I've cited Eamonn McCann and others many times, with the book details down in the Bibliography section. Scolaire (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Ye had a look, it just seems a bit messy. The thing is though most if not all of these books have an index at the back of the book. Which are very easy to use. I don't know to be honest which is best? --Domer48 (talk) 21:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Messy, yes, but it's the way WP likes it. See also Provisional IRA campaign 1969–1997‎ (something I had no part in). A good citation takes you not just to the book but to the page, so that the information is there at your fingertips. Also, to be honest, Eoin Neeson just looks funny. Scolaire (talk) 22:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Ye I suppose your right. Just thinking of the amount of articles I have edited. Ah well one at a time I suppose. Thanks, --Domer48 (talk) 22:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Creation of the Volunteers question

I think the footnoted section is significant enough to appear in the text. If sources are an issue, it's a pretty well established fact, and any one of a number of texts can be cited.

As for the other issue, I still maintain it is incorrect to say that the Volunteers were the creation of the IRB. They had a hand in its creation (or at least its members did, which is not necessarily the same thing), but they, as an organization, did not form the Volunteers. Bulmer Hobson was instrumental in planing the first meeting to discuss formation of the Volunteers at Wynn's Hotel on 11 November, 1913, but he was not acting on behalf of the IRB, and he himself did not attend the meeting as he was considered too radical and was worried about driving away more moderate voices. MacNeill was chairman, and certainly more than a figurehead leader. IRB members were a minority on the Provisional Committee until the reorganization of the Volunteers following the split with Redmond the following year.

You say that the IRB prompted MacNeill to form the Volunteers after publication his article The North Began. What is your specific source on that? The single metaphorical sentence about "the hidden hand" isn't specific enough. MacNeill certainly never took orders from the IRB, though he was on good terms with some of its members. (Also, on what page of Coogan's book does it imply that the IRB may have prompted MacNeill's article? I have that book in front of me and would like to see his exact phrasing.) Members of the IRB did much of the planning of the Rotunda meeting, but exactly who formed the Volunteers is not entirely straightforward. The three main people responsible were MacNeill, O'Rahilly, and Hobson. Of them, only Hobson was a member of the IRB, and upon the formation of the Volunteers, he had divided loyalties between the two groups. After the formation, the IRB merely had a disproportionate representation in the leadership, but were still a distinct minority. They didn;t gain effective control of the organization until 1916, and even then it was limited, as the Rising proved. Much of this can be supported by any number of books (Hobson himself in the collection Irish Volunteers 1913-1915 edited by F.X. Martin, Michael Tierney's book Eoin MacNeill, Robert Kee's The Green Flag', to name a few).

Okay, I probably said more than was necessary there, but I think it is certainly correct to say that the IRB had a hand in the creation of the Volunteers, but were not the creators of it, and I think the article needs to reflect that. I'm open to suggestions of exact phrasing. -R. fiend (talk) 22:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"in October 1913, a meeting to which MacNeill was invited was held in Wynne's Hotel Dublin, at the instigation of the IRB...the IRB men kept themselves in the background." Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: Easter Rising, pg. 50

"It may or may not have been an IRB man who prompted Eoin MacNeill, to write the momentous article..." op. cit.

As to the footnote, reference it, and explaine how it is relevant Maybe further down. It is not incorrect to say they were the creation of the IRB, the references say they were. To say they they had a hand in it is incorrect. They had a purpose, "secure control of the Volunteers" the word here is "secre" they had control from the start. "the hidden hand" is also a quote, the IRB, obviously, did I need to include that, I thought it was obvious. Who formed the Volunteers is entirely straightforward. The references again have said it! "They didn;t gain effective control of the organization until 1916" thats pure BS. Reference it! --Domer48 (talk) 23:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

As for the first quote, that's not on page 50 of my book. Do you have the hardcover edition? My page 50 deals with the landing at Howth. In any case, it seems it was Hobson who organized the first meeting at Wynn's Hotel, but he wasn't even present for it. To fully equate Hobson and the IRB is going a bit far, particularly in light of his siding with the Volunteer leadership over the IRB leadership with the Redmond vote. Additionally, calling an inaugural meeting and creating the Volunteers are not one and the same. The Volunteers were created in a series of meetings in which the IRB had a hand, but they were never the majority.

The second quote is irrelevant. "May or may not have" tells us nothing. My sources seem to say that it was O'Rahilly who encouraged MacNeill to write his article, and O'Rahilly was never a member of the IRB (though MacNeill may have believed he was).

As for control of the Volunteers, it is clear that the IRB did not have control of them, as the chairman (later Chief-of-Staff) was not only not an IRB member, but quite unsympathetic to them in general. The Provisional Committee had about 13 IRB men out of 30 members before Redmond's appointees were included in June, 1914, and obviously a much smaller percentage afterwards. (That they couldn't prevent Redmond from nearly taking over shows how little control they had.) It wasn't until after the split between the National and Irish Volunteers in September that the IRB really started to get real control over important things like mobilization, and even then they had to recruit Plunkett and MacDonagh, as well as the remaining commandant Valera. Even then IRB members were a small minority of the Volunteers (albeit a highly active and powerful one). Even on the eve of the rising, the integral headquarters staff was under the general command of a non-IRB man (MacNeill), had another (O'Rahilly) as director of arms, and had an out-of-the-loop, untrusted, and unsympathetic IRB man (Hobson) as quartermaster. Pearse's appointment as Director of military organization is the only reason they were able to mobilize the Volunteers for the "maneuvers" at Easter, which were a thinly veiled disguise for a general rising, and recruitment of the 4 commandants was the only reason they could actually stage a rebellion. That they didn't have effective control of the Volunteers even as the Rising was about to occur is evident that until the last minute they were trying to convince, and later trick, MacNeill into signing off on the rising, and when that didn't work, by forcing his hand by revealing that German weapons were being landed and the British were about to suppress the Volunteers if they didn't act first. And even after that, it's clear they didn't have complete control when a single note by MacNeill cut Volunteer turnout to a small fraction in Dublin, and basically stopped it in the rest of the country. The IRB played an important role in the creation of the Volunteers, but were not the creators, and while they had a highly disproportionate influence within the organization, they never fully controlled the Volunteers. They were always two very distinct organizations. -R. fiend (talk) 23:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

References! Not comment! --Domer48 (talk) 00:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This can all be backed up with many books on the subject. Sorry, but I can't take a single sentence quote to verify content covering several years of history. I gave you a partial list of books, and I can name some others, though it's been a while since I read most of them so trying to remember which book backs up which fact the best can take some time. What particular issues do you question? Surely you're familiar enough with some of the history that you don't need a citation for every sentence. Hobson's essay on the foundation of the Volunteers is a very good first hand source, though I imagine you'd have trouble finding it; I had to steal it from a university library. Tell me what specific facts you want cited and I'll try to get books and page numbers for you tomorrow, though it may take some time. I've got about a couple dozen books covering the Rising and it's players. -R. fiend (talk) 00:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Current text: "Since its inception in 1913, the Volunteers, were the creation of the IRB, for precisely this purpose"

Possible edit: "The IRB were closely involved in the formation of the Volunteers in 1913, aware that such a force could be used for insurrection in the event of a European war.<ref>The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33</ref>"

Scolaire (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Much better, though I don't think we need to mention the European War specifically, as they were anxious for an insurrection with or without a war (the war obviously proved to be an opportunity for them, but they would not have intended to wait for one). "...used for insurrection for the establishment of an Irish Republic" might be better. I'm also thinking that better phrasing would be "Members of the IRB were closely involved..." as it's a bit unclear what was being planned by the IRB as an organization, and what was being done by various Nationalists who were members of the IRB. The primary leaders of the IRB including the President (who I believe was James Deakin a the time) had little hand in the Volunteers, and I believe Tom Clarke was not involved at all. Yes, there were numerous members of the IRC involved in the Volunteers from the earliest day, but that's more true of the Gaelic League (almost all of the founding members of the Volunteers were also in the Gaelic League), and no one would claim they created the Volunteers. The IRB at the time was a recently revitalized organization that was still emerging from a period of complete stagnation, and many of their most important members for the coming insurrection had yet to be recruited. I guess that's sort of a minor point; the IRB certainly had plans for the Volunteers from the outset. -R. fiend (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"they were anxious for an insurrection with or without a war" that is so out of the park, I'd like a reference for that. One question, thats all! What were the objectives of the rising, just the main four will do. --Domer48 (talk) 23:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So you maintain that if World War I had been averted (or if Britain would have stayed out of it), the IRB would have been content to sit on their hands and do nothing forever? I have no idea what they would have done exactly, or how it would have played out, but the IRB oath says nothing about waiting for Britain to get involved in a continental war of attrition before taking any action, particularly when they have partial control of a Volunteer army. -R. fiend (talk) 00:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah one more, why was Tom Clarke sent to Ireland in 1907? --Domer48 (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

One simply question, what nationalist organisation did the IRB not infiltrate at this time? Just a one word answer? --Domer48 (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Another quote:

• "The Ulster Volunteers were then established by Carson to resist Home Rule. This gave the IRB the chance they had been hoping for, and they immediately set to work to establish the Irish Volunteers…Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work; Tom dared not show his nose in that, for to do so would make the British suspicious of it, but it was all done in collaboration with Tom behind the scenes." (Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44)

I'm not going to quote the entire page, but she goes on to say that the IRB decided who should be proposed to the Provisional Executive, that they should represent every section of the community, but that they should not include anybody who was identified with the revolutionary element. Hobson went against that decision by accepting the position of Secretary, and Clarke was shaken by that (the rift between the two men came later). She concludes:

• "Let me explain that these precautions and safeguards were with the object of not arousing British suspicions about the real object of the Irish Volunteers; they really were intended to be the open arm of the IRB."

And from the same book:

• "Uncle John would have liked to keep us in Limerick , but from the point of view of the work Tom intended doing, to prepare the country to take advantage of the coming war, Dublin was best suited." (page 36)

And really, "if World War I had been averted" belongs in an alternative universe. It was regarded as inevitable, and it was inevitable. Scolaire (talk) 11:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I read Kathleen Clarke's book, and while it gives some very good insight into what Tom was doing, the entire thing is hardly impartial, and basically tries to convince the reader the Tom and MacDermott did everything (mostly at the expense of Hobson). And I see her point, those two are probably ore responsible for the Rising than anyone else, yet Pearse and Connolly seem to be the only two anyone remembers. In any case, the first quote can be established as not 100% true in that no one "immediately" set out to establish the Irish Volunteers, as they weren't formed for well over a year later (closer to two, I believe). Yes, Hobson and MacDermott were involved (particularly the former), but Kathleen makes it sound like those two did basically all the work, which simply isn't true. Clarke is not a historian; she writes from her perspective, but has no special knowledge of what happened at the Volunteers' formation. Hobson does. He lists all the people involved, and even gives their allegiances.

"...they really were intended to be the open arm of the IRB." Yes, that was the IRB's view of the situation, but that was not their established or stated purpose. The Irish Volunteers were never a republican organization, though the IRB basically sought to make them one. After the rising they evolved into the IRA (or with the rising, one could say, but even during the fighting some of the men involved were not staunch republicans), but that was a different situation.

I really don't want to dwell on the WWI scenario. I just think it's incorrect to say that the IRB was relying on a European war, and would not have ever acted without it. At least, I have seen no indication that they would have. (As for the inevitability of the war, well, nothing's 100% inevitable and British involvement certainly was not, Germany was counting on that). When the war started, the Supreme Council agreed that they must act before the end of the war, as it was too good an opportunity to miss, but they never said they would not act after the war. Shortly after the war started, the prevailing opinion was that it would be over in months, yet the IRB did not act until 1916. Did they know something about the duration that no one else did? How's this for a proposed edit: "The IRB were closely involved in the formation of the Volunteers in 1913, aware that such a force could be used for insurrection to establish an Irish Republic." If you like, something like "particularly given the likelihood of a imminent European war" could be added to the end, but I'd like to avoid any phrasing that implies no war = no insurrection. -R. fiend (talk) 14:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"All of these were members of both the IRB, and (with the exception of Clarke) the Irish Volunteers. The IRB were closely involved in the formation of the Volunteers in 1913, aware that such a force could be used for insurrection to establish an Irish Republic, particularly given the likelihood of a imminent European war; hence by 1916 a large proportion of the Volunteer leadership were devoted republicans." That works for me. Scolaire (talk) 15:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. -R. fiend (talk) 16:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work;" And yet R. fiend (talk) says Kathleen Clarke "basically tries to convince the reader the Tom and MacDermott did everything (mostly at the expense of Hobson)."

"the first quote can be established as not 100% true in that no one "immediately" set out to establish the Irish Volunteers" The references have established that they did! 100% true.

"she writes from her perspective" and so dose Hobson!

"Clarke is not a historian" and Hobson was?

R. fiend (talk) you are not the arbitrator of what is and is not a reliable source. Kathleen Clarke was a contemporary of this period, and had a more direct understanding on this period through her husband, Tom Clarke. It has been verifiably established that the IRB instigated the forming of the Volunteers, through reliable sources. So unless you come up with a verifiable source which says Kathleen Clarke is otherwise, it is just your opinion. In fact, that is what your contributions consist of, your opinion. Last quote, and that is it:

“They dared not move themselves. Any move by known physical force men in the direction of a Volunteer Force would be certain to be stopped notwithstanding the precedent established by Carson, and the I.R.B. therefore confined itself to encouraging the expression of the opinion that we, too, ought to organise a Volunteer Force for the defence of Ireland. As the Ulster move developed this opinion was given expression to by many people of unexceptionable “constitutional” charter by followers of the Irish Parliamentary Party, and by followers of no party, who saw in the Ulster move a threat to Home Rule. From July, 1913, a small Committee met regularly in Dublin and watched the growth of opinion, refraining from taking any action until the Ulster precedent should have been solidly established, and hoping for a lead from some “constitutional” quarter. The lead came fro Eoin McNeill, Professor of Early Irish History in University College, Dublin, without political affiliation of any kind, Vice-President of the Gaelic League, who wrote an article in the League paper advocating the formation of an Irish Volunteer Force. McNeill was interviewed and agreed to take a part in the formation of such a force, other constitutionalists of the same mind appeared, and eventually a Provisional Committee for the establishment of a Volunteer Force met at the end October.” P. S. O'Hegarty, A History of Ireland Under the Union 1801 to 1922, Methuen & Co. Ltd, London, Pg.669

References, not opinion. --Domer48 (talk) 17:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said, Hobson, while not a historian, was a primary source for the formation as the Volunteers, being one of the main people involved. Kathleen Clarke, a primary source on certain things, had no direct involvment to the Volunteers (nor did her husband, really). P.S. O'Hegarty (who, if memory serves, was on the Supreme Council of the IRB at the time) is a good source on the period to be sure, says basically what I've been saying, that the IRB played a substantial role in the creation but it was carried out by MacNeill and "other constitutionalists" as well as IRB members.

Kathleen Clarke does downplay Hobson's role in the quote above by basically implying that his contribution was equal to MacDermott's, when Hobson's role was substantially greater (I don't think anyone denies this, even Kathleen does not directly do so). And when the The Ulster Volunteers were formed in early 1912, and the Irish Volunteers in late 1913, how is one "immediately" following the other? What references do you have that establish this "immediate" formation? Also "instigated the formation of the Volunteers" is not the same as "creating" the Volunteers, which is what the article says. I wouldn't really have a problem with the former phrasing. Saying any one person or entity "created" the Volunteers is an over-simplification. Detailed accounts of the formation of the Volunteers give a better account than Kathleen Clarke's single statement that "Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work", without giving any further details. -R. fiend (talk) 18:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I’m not going to play word games with you. You don’t like the word “created,” snap neither do I, but that was the word that was used by the source. Since you have no problem with the word “instigated” I can live with that, as it dose not alter the context of the sources which would be original research. --Domer48 (talk) 19:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that R. fiend and I have already agreed a wording that is in accordance with the sources - Hobson as well as Clarke, is NPOV and essentially says what you are trying to say anyway. I am adding that wording now. Scolaire (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that is not what the sources say, Hobson as well as Clarke were IRB. As to R. fiend "The 2 main people responsible (MacNeill and O'Rahilly) were never even members." What I have put there reflects exactly what the sources say:

• "in October 1913, a meeting to which MacNeill was invited was held in Wynne's Hotel Dublin, at the instigation of the IRB...the IRB men kept themselves in the background." Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: Easter Rising, pg. 50

• "The IRB seized its chance to capitalise on this sense of identity when Eoin MacNeill, vice-president of the Gaelic League, wrote an article in the organ of the Gaelic League, An Cliadheamh Soluis, in October 1913, proposing that a body of Southern Volunteers be established on the same line as the Ulster Volunteers. Using the respected name of MacNeill as a front, the IRB organised a meeting to which all parties were invited, at the Rotunda Hall, Dublin, on November 25." (The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33)
• "The Ulster Volunteers were then established by Carson to resist Home Rule. This gave the IRB the chance they had been hoping for, and they immediately set to work to establish the Irish Volunteers…Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work; Tom dared not show his nose in that, for to do so would make the British suspicious of it, but it was all done in collaboration with Tom behind the scenes." (Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44)

I'm not going to quote the entire page, but she goes on to say that the IRB decided who should be proposed to the Provisional Executive, that they should represent every section of the community, but that they should not include anybody who was identified with the revolutionary element. Hobson went against that decision by accepting the position of Secretary, and Clarke was shaken by that (the rift between the two men came later). She concludes: "Let me explain that these precautions and safeguards were with the object of not arousing British suspicions about the real object of the Irish Volunteers; they really were intended to be the open arm of the IRB." And from the same book:

• "Uncle John would have liked to keep us in Limerick , but from the point of view of the work Tom intended doing, to prepare the country to take advantage of the coming war, Dublin was best suited." (page 36)

• “They dared not move themselves. Any move by known physical force men in the direction of a Volunteer Force would be certain to be stopped notwithstanding the precedent established by Carson, and the I.R.B. therefore confined itself to encouraging the expression of the opinion that we, too, ought to organise a Volunteer Force for the defence of Ireland. As the Ulster move developed this opinion was given expression to by many people of unexceptionable “constitutional” charter by followers of the Irish Parliamentary Party, and by followers of no party, who saw in the Ulster move a threat to Home Rule. From July, 1913, a small Committee met regularly in Dublin and watched the growth of opinion, refraining from taking any action until the Ulster precedent should have been solidly established, and hoping for a lead from some “constitutional” quarter. The lead came fro Eoin McNeill, Professor of Early Irish History in University College, Dublin, without political affiliation of any kind, Vice-President of the Gaelic League, who wrote an article in the League paper advocating the formation of an Irish Volunteer Force. McNeill was interviewed and agreed to take a part in the formation of such a force, other constitutionalists of the same mind appeared, and eventually a Provisional Committee for the establishment of a Volunteer Force met at the end October.” P. S. O'Hegarty, A History of Ireland Under the Union 1801 to 1922, Methuen & Co. Ltd, London, Pg.669
• It has been argued that the Rising was a coup de main by the IRB on the unsuspecting Volunteers, especially in Headquarters. That ignores the fact that the Volunteers, to begin with, were the creation of the IRB with the intention of using them for precisely this purpose. The Rising was planned by the Military Council in the closest secrecy, unknown even to Volunteer officers often sharing HQ duties, responsibilities and directorates with them." Eoin Neeson, Myths from Easter 1916, Aubane Historical Society, Cork, 2007, ISBN 978 1 903497 34 0 Pg.81

• would certainly read from that that the IRB were behind the formation of the Volunteers, and that MacNeill was a figurehead. Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So from the sources provided, the IRB were the ones who instigated the formation of the Volunteers. And "McNeill was interviewed and agreed to take a part in the formation of such a force." The wording reflects what these sources say, to attempt to change the context is not going to run. --Domer48 (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Domer, I'm sorry, you have done some excellent editing on this article, but this dog in the manger attitude is spoiling it. It's silly and tiresome. There's more to editing Misplaced Pages than shouting "verifiability", "reliable sources" and "original research" like the Queen of Hearts shouting "off with his head!" The next time you do an edit, read what it says at the bottom of the page: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly … do not submit it. I wouldn't mind if this tirade was directed against some rabidly anti-republican editors, rather than two like-minded people who have spent the last 24 hours looking for an acceptable and NPOV wording. Now, R. fiend has referenced two sources, I have referenced two and you have referenced two. All six agree that the IRB was involved in the formation of the Volunteers (some say they were the prime movers, others differ), all agree that the IRB were aware the force could be used for armed insurrection, and at least some say that an imminent war would provide the opportunity. Therefore all of these facts are verifiable against said reliable sources and are not original research. Now why don't you go and have a cup of tea and then think about how you can usefully edit this article. Scolaire (talk) 20:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Scolaire (talk), but WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR is what makes wiki work, so I'll stick with what I'm doing. But do you know what is really funny! As soon as I start to reference an article, suddenly editors pop out of the wood work and start to challange! Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but they ignore all the unreferenced stuff! Now from experiance, my reaction to BS, is to just continue editing! So why don't you get R. fiend to put down the quotes, minus the commentary and I'm more than willing to work it in. What I will not do, is play BS word games. The best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together, but not the patent nonsense that is evident to date! I’ll just ignore the barbed comments, I see myself above that petty point scoring. --Domer48 (talk) 20:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me repeat what I said above: you have done some excellent editing on this article. There is a great deal of BS in it, a lot of unreferenced stuff, and you have been working your way through it. I'm not about to start on it - I said I would do it months ago and never did, so I trust you to do it now. That's on the level, no point scoring. I admit I was annoyed when I wrote the last post. That was because you thanked me for providing sources, then turned around and accused me of original research and ignoring the sources, using my own quotes to attack me with. That is not on. In plain English, that is bullying. You say "the best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together", but you shout down R. fiend and refuse to accept anything but a one-word amendment to your text. That is not on. That is bullying. Now, I'm asking you, please stop this behaviour over something that does not even change the tone or import of the article, and start working with people who, like you, want to improve this article. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"instigated the formation of the Volunteers" is not the same as "creating" the Volunteers, which is what the article says. I wouldn't really have a problem with the former phrasing." R. fiend. So what did I do? I changed it. Now as to "bullying" "shout down" please! "using my own quotes to attack me with" spare me. While it sounds all very dramatic it lacks one ingredient, “substance.” "So why don't you get R. fiend to put down the quotes, minus the commentary and I'm more than willing to work it in." Ye looks like I not will to work "with" people. Agree with R. fiend and amend text, and will to put in an opposing view. Now I'm more than willing to move on and work through the article and address "a great deal of BS in it." --Domer48 (talk) 21:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"Instigated" is certainly better than "created", but I think the phrasing Scolaire and I came up with is better still. Saying "instigated" can imply that they were the sole instigators, when there were several contributing factors (the formation of the Ulster Volunteers, the publication of The North Began, to name two). I'm happy to get the input of other editors; a note over at Wikiproject Irish Republicanism would be a good place to start. -R. fiend (talk) 21:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm out of here! I'm not willing to put up with this abuse for trying to make a readable article. No article is worth it. Happy editing. Scolaire (talk) 23:16, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Should IRA be included as Combatants

Should we include IRA as Combatants in the Info box, and in the article? The reason I ask, I was going to include them. Thought I would check first, as it my be contentious. --Domer48 (talk) 21:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no strong opinion on this. While the term IRA was used, I believe the individual combatants would generally have still called themselves "Volunteers" or "ICA". Their uniforms (those who had them) would have reflected that. Putting down IRA might lead the casual reader to associate it with the IRA as it is known today, which is quite different. I notice that Scolaire had some strong opinions above against the IRB being listed as combatants (as they now are), so he might on this as well. -R. fiend (talk) 21:56, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I have mixed views on it, and would welcome more opinions. --Domer48 (talk) 11:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Another issue

The paragraph about negotiations with Germany should be rephrased. Right now it says that Casement represented the IRB, which is at least misleading. Casement was never an IRB member, and his goal in Germany was to negotiate on behalf of the Volunteers. His isolation there caused all sorts of problems for him.

Also, Count Plunkett's exact role should be stated more clearly. As I recall, it was pretty minor. -R. fiend (talk) 02:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Casement was not a member of the IRB, but was aware of the role that wished him to play, and to take advantage of the contacts he had in Germany.--Domer48 (talk) 11:22, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

"The plan encountered its first major hurdle when" this was hardly the first. Things such as Redmonds attempted take over, the split etc. I will address some of this. --Domer48 (talk) 11:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess, though I would sort of consider the Redmond's meddling to have occurred prior to "the plan", which wasn't really formulated in any meaningful way until the establishment of the Military Committee. But that's a minor semantic point. Changing "IRB" to "The Irish" in the section about Germany was a big improvement.-R. fiend (talk) 15:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I have removed some of the most obvious Speculation and comment. I will address some of the references myself, but if editors wish to lend a hand. The is no mention of Cumann na mBan at all in the aricle, and 200 members took part, thats desperate. --Domer48 (talk) 20:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:35, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Legacy of the Rising

In this section there is so much comment and opinion and hardly a reference. i have removed some of the most obvious, and placed some tags. --Domer48 (talk) 20:43, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Objectives

I have added the objectives of the IRB, as these were compleatly missing, leaving no context to their plans. --Domer48 (talk) 21:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

What is your source that military victory was "never" a consideration? That is certainly true by the time the rising was underway, but when they had hopes for the entire body of Volunteers turning out (there were well over 100,000 before the split), as well as 100,000 rifles, plus machine guns, artillery, and German officers, are you sure none of them even held out any hope a successful rebellion? Casement, isolated in Germany, tried to raise a brigade of a few thousand Irishmen and secure substantial German aid in hopes of a successful rising, before he was dismayed by the Germans' lack of commitment. Certainly MacNeill's countermand, the indifference of the germans, and the scuttling of the Aud destroyed any remote hope for military success, but prior to all that the situation was very different. They never counted on victory; they were going to stage an uprising whatever their chances of success, but that is not the same as never considering it. -R. fiend (talk) 22:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Please provide references, and we can work any opposing views in. I will be expanding on this, and just want to get the basics down. So what you need now is a reference which clearly states that the planned a military victory. A reference which calculates the resources of "100,000 rifles, plus machine guns, artillery, and German officers." References which explaines the "Germans' lack of commitment," and "the indifference of the Germans." You will also need references which show that they did "considering it" a victory that is. As to what is my source, read the article, its referenced. The next book to be used will be the P. S. Hegerthy, John Devoy: Rebel and then Last Words. I will also be including some pictures, such as the surrender statement, Irish War news and some pictures from the prison. This approch is called layering. --Domer48 (talk) 00:28, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

When a military force engages in armed conflict, the person who says that they never hoped to win needs to provide sources more than the one who says they initially had some hope for victory. I don't deny that they went forward on Easter Monday fully knowing they were going to be slaughtered; Connolly said so in as many words. I'd like a reliable source that indicates, from the beginning of their planning, they never considered a military victory.

That they hoped for real support from Germany can be referenced in Michael Foy and Brian Barton's The Easter Rising, p. 14: "What Plunkett hoped to secure from the Germans was a commitment to send a large expeditionary force to Ireland which would land simultaneously with the start of the Rising." It goes into more details further about what exactly they expected; it's pretty substantial. Yeah, it was basically a pipe-dream, but it showed they had hoped for some degree of success at one point. There are other sources about what Casement tried to get from Germany and his disappointment with what they gave him (which is why he was against the Rising going forward). -R. fiend (talk) 03:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

When you provide references, it can be discussed. I have referenced my edits. --Domer48 (talk) 08:55, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The relative positions prior to the Rising would be comparable to the Irish taking on the USA to day. While I understand this would be considered an under estimation, it gives a sense of scale. Would a military victory be contemplated, or course not. So your objectives be determined not by what was proable, but was realistically achievable. Lets keep the discussion in the realms of reality. --Domer48 (talk) 12:52, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

You've used an entire book to cite an entire paragraph. That's not very specific. While it would be fine for a straightforward summation of facts, but a controversial statement such as that they never considered any sort of military victory needs something specific. I don't have the book (and can't find it on Amazon), could you quote exactly what he says about that?

I also have to dispute your statement that it would be comparable to the Irish taking on the USA today (source?). Seems it may be more like the American colonies taking on the British Empire. Or maybe like Iraq trying to drive the US out (there are no perfect analogies). The Volunteers didn't need to conquer Britain or anything; they just needed to make British rule in Ireland impractical, and the asserting of British power in Ireland not worth the trouble during a time when the British military was facing it's greatest crisis in more than a century. If they had all 13,000 Volunteers turn out, armed, (particularly with the aid of Germany) who's to say they wouldn't have had a military victory, especially with the British army tied up on the continent? When the Supreme Council met at the outbreak of war, the Volunteers had what, nearly 200,000 members, of whom they aimed to control? Yet they never considered the possibility of victory? If their only aim was to get slaughtered in order to get Pearse his blood sacrifice and print the declaration of a Republic, why was it so important to do it while Britain was at war? That they would ever get a seat at a peace conference was a pipe dream (although if Germany had one it may have been a possibility; that was Casement's one potential success). The IRB knew that England's difficulty was Ireland's opportunity because it presented them the bet chance they ever had for success. (Would you say they never considered success in 1798 or 1867?) In terms of PR it was a disaster, as many Dubliners saw it as an insult to their family members who were fighting in France and Belgium. Did they really never even hope to achieve as much success as they did in 1921, at a time when Britain wasn't caught up in a foreign war?

My main objection is the word "never" as being too absolute. Maybe "not a serious aim" would be better? I'll look for sources that contradict that, but the statement "they wanted to win" is slightly hard to find, for obvious reasons. -R. fiend (talk) 15:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I have explained how I intend to proceed! My reference has an ISBN number! Now reference your opinions. --Domer48 (talk) 16:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I have a couple quotes here that support my point. They are from Leaders and Men of the Easter Rising: Dublin 1916, edited by FX Martin. The article is called "Ceannt, Devoy, O'Rahilly, and the military plan" by Florence O'Donoghue: "Besides seeking to substitute a free native government for a firmly established alien administration, their vision included a greater and more sublime purpose - to redirect into its ancient native traditions the course of a nation's life, perhaps a dying nation, and save its honour and its soul" (p.189) The "Besides..." part implying they had hope for success; I do not deny their other objectives, particularly the revitalizing the spirit part. Then on page 191: "The plan may therefore be regarded as a dual purpose one, primarily and ambitiously as a national uprising to seize the country, proclaim a republic and defend it in arms, and within the ambit of that effort an irrevocable determination to make 'a bloody protest for a glorious thing', even if adverse circumstances limited its duration and extent." They were by no means counting on success (that success was not likely is the reason why men like Hobson and O'Rahilly were against the Rising), but its too strong to say it was "never a consideration." -R. fiend (talk) 17:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Provide a refernces which says a military victory was "a consideration." --Domer48 (talk) 17:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

What exactly does your source say? Because I cannot recall reading anything saying that no one, in all their planning for an insurrection, never even considered the idea of such a military action being successful, not even in preliminary discussions. I know their objectives in 1916 were not necessarily military in the sense of driving all the British forces right out of Ireland, but ideally, that was their eventual overall mission. Declaring a republic isn't doing much good if it's never established, revitalization of revolutionary spirit does no one any good if it doesn't eventually lead to a successful revolution of some sort, and certainly there is nothing in the IRB constitution saying that their mission is to get what they can by hanging on to the coattails of a major European power at a peace conference after they defeat Britain in a major war (which is the only way they would ever have made it to the peace table; the victors don't give up their possessions, the losers do). The long-term goal of the IRB was to rid Ireland of British rule and establish an Irish republic (I assume you aren't going to demand a source for that) and it was through military engagement that they expected to do this (I assume you don't need a reference to show that the IRB did not support the IPP). Yet you say that the idea of them actually doing this was never even on anyone's mind? Why did that goal suddenly change during the War for Independence? When did this rift occur between their ideal aims and their realistic goals?

Okay, you've supplied an ISBN. Now can we see a page number and a quote? Just here on the talk page. What does the reference actually say? -R. fiend (talk) 19:41, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As from now, could you please confine yourself to referenced sources? I would much prefer you desist from putting forward your opinions as fact, incessant commentary or providing your analyse. This is not the forum for original research. If you again question my integrity as to the references I use I will view it as a personal attack.

--Domer48 (talk) 21:16, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Now we're starting to get somewhere (though I still think you have a skewed view of what original research, or even opinions, are). Now, your source admittedly contradicts most other sources on the matter. What does he have to offer as proof that they are wrong and he is right? Apparently, merely the idea that "a moment's reflection" on the matter would yield the inevitable conclusion that victory would be "preposterous." Very short on specifics, and now we're taking his word as fact, even when he admits his view is the minority. Does he have any sources on which he is basing the fact that no one, at any time, had even any hope of victory? To be honest, his approach sounds a bit sour grapes to me ("Of course they were defeated; that was there plan all along! Do you honestly think they ever planned a military engagement with the intent of actually winning?" Preposterous!") Since Neeson seems to be the only one arguing this, if it is to be included in the article it should be cited as his view of the situation. I don't think we can take the approach that the IRB cast aside its stated goal (establishment of a republic, by force of arms if necessary) at a time when they had more in their favor than perhaps ever before, merely because Eoin Neeson says so. -R. fiend (talk) 21:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Please confine yourself to referenced sources? Stop putting forward your opinions as fact, incessant commentary and providing your analyse. This is not the forum for original research. --Domer48 (talk) 23:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Just some of the books by the same author: Birth of a Republic, The Civil War, The Life and Death of Michael Collins, A History of Irish Forestry, The Book of Irish Saints, An Tain, Cuchulain’s Saga, The Imperishable Celtic Epic, Deirdre and Other Great Stories from Celtic Mythology, The First Book of Irish Myths and Legends, The Second Book of Irish Myths and Legends, Irish Myths and Legends, Celtic Myths and Legends, Aspects of Parallelism in Japanese and Irish Character and Culture. This dose not include his writings under Pseudonyms, fiction, poetry, plays or the various radio and television plays.--Domer48 (talk) 23:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Please stop saying the same thing over and over again. It gets tiresome. What opinion have I stated that you disagree with? Why is it okay to put down Neeson's opinion as fact when he contradicts "Most books and articles written during the past 20 years" with scant evidence? If you want another reference to victory, there's Kathleen Clarke, relating words spoken to her husband on Easter Monday after MacNeill's countermand has largely ruined their plans. She asks Tom if "there is any way out with honour other than what you are doing, going to certain death, with all hope of success gone?" (p.78). So there's an indication from someone very close to Clarke indicating that he had some hope of a successful rising at one point. Yeah, so Neeson's written a bunch of books, why does that make his word gospel? -R. fiend (talk) 00:16, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Please confine yourself to referenced sources? Stop putting forward your opinions as fact, incessant commentary and providing your analyse. This is not the forum for original research. --Domer48 (talk) 08:55, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Very mature. Just keep repeating the same thing over and over again, no matter how many sources I give you. And keep crying "original research" for anything I say that is not the direct quote of a publish author (and even what is). You keep saying those words; I do not think they mean what you think they mean. (Besides, calling what I say "original research" is original research, you're guilty to). Do you know Andy Schlafly by any chance? You'd get along swimmingly. Okay, you like ISBN's so much. Here are some ISBN's for you: 0 00 633200 5, 1-57098-042-X, 0-15-178327-6, 0-7509-2616-3, 1-85635-276-5, 1-85371-068-7, 0-965-088169, 0-14-014760-8, 0-19-822440-0, 0-302-35902-5, 0-14-021394-5. That should be enough for now. 10 books trump 1. I win. Don't ask me what any of those books actually say or I'l take it as a personal attack. -R. fiend (talk) 15:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Roger Casement

Casement in his prison manuscript wrote: “I want to make it very plain that I approve of the Rising — failure and all — in one sense. As a man of ‘travelled mind and understanding’ I should never have sanctioned it had I been in Ireland, but since those there were bent on it, I, too (like the O’Rahilly) would have gone with it”.

• Note: The reference to the word "sanctioned." Casement was never in a position to "sanction" the Rising.

This is supported by Captain Robert Monteith, Casement’s lieutenant who accompanied him and landed with him at Banna Strand, categorically denies the allegation, he wrote: “Another error into which some writers have fallen is the assumption that Casement tried to stop the Rising. This is not even a half-truth”, (Robert Monteith Casements Last Adventure). Mackey also deals peremptorily with these falsehoods.

Eoin Neeson in his book (op. cit. Pg. 101) says it’s possible that the theory that he came to stop the Rising originated with Eva Gore-Booth (Countess Markievicz’s sister), who, during Casement’s trial, made precisely this allegation - presumably trying to mitigate the case against him. Quoting from Sir Basil Thompsons diaries for 22 July, 1916, cited by Alfred Noyes, The Accusing Ghost or Justice for Casement, London, 1957, p. 17. --Domer48 (talk) 17:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, agreeing with the rising "in one sense" doesn't mean he didn't try to stop it. Others also agreed with it in some sense, but still tried to stop it, most notably O'Rahilly (whose actions Casement specifically relates to in the above quote). I find the Monteith quote more compelling, as he'd be in a position to know Casement's mind at the time. I think there's enough controversy on this point that it should be more fully addressed in the article (and if not here, then certainly in Casement's). Roger McHugh's article, "Casement and German help", in the FX Martin book mentioned above quite clearly states "Casement's to stop or postpone the rising at Easter; failing that, to die in it." This is O'Rahilly's exact aim as well. Again Casement's own words show he and O'Rahilly were of a like mind. That Eva Gore-Booth made it up in an attempt to save him is certainly an interesting theory; I had not heard that before (how would she of all people be in a position to know?). (I wonder if Monteith took the opposite approach, where Gore-Booth tried to save his life, Monteith years later trying to save his reputation; after the Easter leaders became heroes, it doesn't do Casement's already tarnished reputation much good if he had tried to prevent the entire affair. Yes, yes, I know, "original research," but in this case there are plenty of sources to the contrary about what Casement was doing, it does no harm to use the talk page to speculate on why.) In any case, do any sources contradict the the statement that, if nothing else, Casement was disappointed with the level of support Germany was offering? I have offered some sources indicating he was. Casement is one of the most enigmatic figures in the rising, and much about him is confusing. -R. fiend (talk) 20:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

None of the sources contradict the statement that Casement was disappointed with the level of support Germany was offering. It is for that reason I left it in. The only thing I was not sure of was if the reference that was used was also applicable to that statement describing his disappointment. For that reason I left the reference in also? --Domer48 (talk) 21:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was removed, but since you voice no objections I worked it back into the section. -R. fiend (talk) 21:39, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Removing referenced information

Referenced information should not be removed simply because an editor can not come up with a source to dispute what is in the article. --Domer48 (talk) 09:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The editor is removing sourced material, claiming the issue is covered in later sections, it isn't, I have restored the text and if he still has a issue heshould discuss it here first.--Padraig (talk) 16:43, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

This appears in the following section:

The specific goals of the Military Council are complex and somewhat unclear. While their goal was certainly to declare and defend and Irish Republic, it is not entirely certain if they ever planned, or even hoped, to establish such a nation. Historian Eoin Neeson has stated that a plan involving a military victory was never a consideration, and while the Leaders considered there would be some military success, but an overall military victory was never an objective of the Rising. What set the members of the Military Council apart from the majority of the Volunteers, and even from some other members of the IRB (such as Bulmer Hobson), is their determination to stage an insurrection regardless of its actual chance for success. Certainly by the time the Rising began any hope that may have ever existed for military victory was gone. Objectives of the Rising included declaration of an Irish Republic and revitalisation the spirit of the people and arouse separatist national fervour. Additionally they hoped to claim a place at the post war peace conference in the event of German victory in the World War (during the war, Roger Casement would later negotiate with Germany of behalf of Ireland). Furthermore James Connolly brought another element: a commitment to socialism.

It's the same exact material, only phrased better, as it doesn't take the view of a single revisionist author as an established fact. That there was never any plan for military success is his minority viewpoint, not backed up by any other author as far as I can tell (he even admits he contradicts years of scholarship on this). The statement remains in the article, but is presented as his view. If it can be backed up by other sources it can be discussed more. As for the other issues, the goals of the rising are still there, almost entirely unchanged, but expanded on. If you have a specific issue with that paragraph by all means discuss it here. But it should be devastatingly obvious that inclusion of the earlier paragraph is completely redundant, making for very poor style. -R. fiend (talk) 16:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Many of the leaders expressed the opinion that the rising would fail but thought that the rising was necessary to inspire future generations to achieve Irish freedom.--Padraig (talk) 17:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

True, at least at a time, but that's not the same as never having victory be a goal, which is what Neeson says. I fully admit that sources indicate that 1. they were willing to go forward however impossible victory may seem, 2. By the time the rising was about to begin, they all knew it was a lost cause militarily, and 3. They had other goals, considered more significant by some. But what Neeson says (and what the article takes as a 100% true fact) is that form the time of the outbreak of WWI until the Rising began, none of the people involved ever even considered military success a possibility. That is the view of a single historian (Neeson) who, from what I can tell from the excerpts above, doesn't back up the position well. He clearly wasn't there, so what are his sources for that? I can't find a single other book that makes that claim, and several that contradict it. For that reason, to be included it must be expressed as the view of that author. The way phrased it, it is. In any case, you can see that the paragraph is redundant, can't you? -R. fiend (talk) 17:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The paragraph is not redundant, it may require rewording to make it clearer. Total victory was never possible through the rising, but it was a important first strike and necessary to continue the struggle for freedom, this was what the leadership then hopes to achieve and they did, therefore in that sense the rising wasn't a failure.--Padraig (talk) 17:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course its redundant, it says exactly the same thing, only in a misleading way. What is one fact that the earlier paragraph states that is not in the later one? We can argue about whether or not the IRB ever intended to establish a republic, but in the meantime, if my rewritten paragraph suits you, why do we need that info twice? It's poor form. What single fact is not redundant? -R. fiend (talk) 17:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Who says that it is redunant? You? You are going around today like a one man army. Where is your concensus to say it is redundant and should be move? You are edit warring - block yourself! ;) --Vintagekits (talk) 17:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The intention of the IRB Council was the establishment of the Republic, but they didn't believe the rising would achieve that alone, but was necessary, the IRB remained in control after the rising and where instrumental in the re-organising of the Army after the rising, which led to the war of Independence.--Padraig (talk) 17:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know, thanks. Now find me a source other than Neeson who says that no involved party ever considered military success, even in the earliest stages of planning? -R. fiend (talk) 18:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you provide a source to contradict that viewpoint, such as a statement or comment by any of the leaders stating a military victory was possible through the rising, the leaders were determined to go through with the rising even though they they knew they were facing certain death.--Padraig (talk) 18:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It is admittedly difficult to find a concise quote to that affect for the very reason that when a military engagement is planned, it is generally with victory in mind. If this is not the case, that is a pretty major detail, and one that would be mentioned frequently by historians. Even Neeson says that "Most books and articles written during the past 20 years about it contain the assumption that the Volunteers fought the British forces in Ireland in the hope — even in the prospect — of achieving some kind of military victory." So there he admits himself that his view is something of a revisionist one. If you look above (far above), I found some quotes from sources indicating a military victory was at least hoped for a one point. If someone is going to take the stance that a group is planing a military action but has no consideration for victory, then that person has to strongly back up that argument. We have a single author who doesn't seem to back up his case with any earlier sources (his book was published this year, so there has been little time for other historians to respond). Consider someone putting forth that Rommel never intended to win at El Alamein unless you can come up with a quote from Rommel saying "Off I go to trty to beat the Brits today. I'm aiming to win!" Of course you can't.

It is certainly true that they were determined to go forth regardless of the probability or possibility for victory (my edit even stated that quite clearly, and any source will back that up), and certainly by Easter they knew there was no hope (probably long before that too). The overall mission of the IRB was the establishment of an Irish Republic (I hope everyone is going to try to deny that); to say that was one thing they were certainly not actually hoping to accomplish is a rather contentious statement. Further sources that back up the "never a consideration" argument would be welcomed, but single author's word should not be taken as a fact. -R. fiend (talk) 19:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be the only one that thinks it is redudent R. fiend (talk) all you seem to have done is added unreferenced origanal reasearch. BigDunc (talk) 17:51, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

f you're going to comment, at least read what's being commented on. I expanded, rephrased, and moved a paragraph. I didn't remove anything. Re-inserting the some paragraph in a different place in its pre-edited form is of course redundant. What is one fact stated in the earlier paragraph that is not in my expanded one? Show me and we'll have something to discuss. Better yet, I'll walk us through it. Here is the earlier form:

A plan involving a military victory was not a consideration. The Leaders considered there would be some military success, but an overall military victory was never an objective of the Rising.

This is stated again, only expressly as the views of single historian. The new paragraph says:

Historian Eoin Neeson has stated that a plan involving a military victory was never a consideration, and while the Leaders considered there would be some military success, but an overall military victory was never an objective of the Rising.

The exact same thing, only directly citing the author.

The IRB set out three main objectives for the Rising: First, declare an Irish Republic, second, revitalise the sprit of the people and arouse separatist national fervour, and thirdly, claim a place at the post war peace conference.

The new paragraph says:

Objectives of the Rising included declaration of an Irish Republic and revitalisation the spirit of the people and arouse separatist national fervour. Additionally they hoped to claim a place at the post war peace conference in the event of German victory in the World War (during the war, Roger Casement would later negotiate with Germany of behalf of Ireland).

It's the exact same thing, only a relevant mention of casement's role is added. (If you don't like it we can discuss its removal. So explain to me, since I just established that almost every word from the first version appears in the second, how is it NOT redundant? -R. fiend (talk) 17:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:13, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing Original research

Information which is added to the article must be both verifiable and reliably sourced. {{WP:V|"Verifiable"]] in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.--Domer48 (talk) 20:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Back to edit warring, are we, Domer? You know, calling something "original research" does not make it original research. Especially grammar fixes and clarifications. If you have a problem with edits, don't just do mass reversions because you feel like being an ass. -R. fiend (talk) 20:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

As a so call admin you must be aware of WP:NPA but if not read it again and stop abusing editors who disagree with OR that you have inserted on to this article. BigDunc (talk) 20:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

And where's the OR? -R. fiend (talk) 20:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Improper synthesis of material. Information which is added to the article must be both verifiable and reliably sourced. {{WP:V|"Verifiable"]] in this context means that readers should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. --Domer48 (talk) 21:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, discussion is not posting irrelevant templates on the talk page. Please read WP:DICK. -R. fiend (talk) 21:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Improper synthesis of material. Information which is added to the article must be both verifiable and reliably sourced.--Domer48 (talk) 21:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Protected the page at this time, hoping to force discussion or dispute resolution over sniping and edit warring. – Luna Santin (talk) 22:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Im sure that goes both ways R. fiend (talk) as domer says where is verifiable andreliably sourced in your edits. BigDunc (talk) 22:06, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It would be great if we could have a succinct description of what the actual dispute is here. Please, no more sniping; this page is for discussing improvements to the article. --John (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I added a footnote for the part about how the IRB was an organization devoted to an Irish Republic (a ridiculous thing to have to do; I might as well cite that socialists advocate socialism or feminists advocate feminism, but if that's what people demand...). As for removal of the note on Devoy sending Clarke to Ireland, well, for one it's got no footnote (a minor point that I don't much care about; I know it can be verified by sources), but the main thing is it's disruptive to the paragraph. It goes from discussing negotiations with Germany in one sentence, then jumps back 7 years to discuss someone not relevant to the paragraph, then the next sentence goes right back to the negotiations. It's very awkward. Put it somewhere else maybe (certainly in the articles on Clarke and Devoy) but not right there. (A more minor note, listing years as "1914, 15, and 16" is poor style, at least it should be "1914, 1915, and 1916" but reducing lists of years like that would be preferable).

The final change I made was rephrasing a misleading sentence. Right now it says that the "Volunteers...had fellow IRB members elevated to officer rank whenever possible" when what's important is that the IRB members within the Volunteers had fellow IRB men elevated. This was not done as part of official Volunteers policy. There's a difference, and a significant one. So what's the specific issue with these edits? Where's the original research? Where's the issue with "improper synthesis"? -R. fiend (talk) 22:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

John, read the volumes of text above. First, the IRB were the one’s behind the formation of the Volunteers, verifiable and reliably sourced. Second, never, was a military victory suggested by the Leaders of the Rising, verifiable and reliably sourced. The objectives for the Rising are laid out clearly and are verifiable and reliably sourced. Now that is all there is. If there is an alternative view, well just ensure its verifiable and reliably sourced. First that a military victory was planned, that they planned to beat one of the biggest military powers of the day. Second, that was their object, as ridiculous as it sounds. So John, simplify things for you, just ask for sources, not comment or opinion or an analysis, just references. Improper synthesis of material, is not accepted. --Domer48 (talk) 23:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Domer. I did skim through the page, hence my use of the term "succinct" above. My experience of disputes here is that they are resolved more easily if we can boil it down to something along the lines of "Editor X thinks the y paragraph should read such-and-such, for these stated reasons, whereas editor Z thinks it should read so-and-so, for these reasons". Stating the problem simply may make it easier to resolve for all. See what you can do. --John (talk) 23:16, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree, John, and I'm glad someone is finally trying to address specifics on the talk page. It's been an uphill battle. I've put forward my suggestions, and at least one other editor (Padraig) has said he has no problems with them. Nevertheles they keep getting reverted.

Domer is relying on a single author for his statement that a military victory was never considered. That one author even says that "most books and articles written during the past 20 years about it contain the assumption that the Volunteers fought the British forces in Ireland in the hope — even in the prospect — of achieving some kind of military victory" (p. 75 of his source). So the author readily admits that this is a minority viewpoint, and he is taking a revisionist stance. Now I'm all for including it, but not for giving it undue weight by stating it is a fact. I have seen no other source that backs this up. Just getting the article to state that this was an historian's view has been like pulling teeth, as he has been reverting any edits I make to the article, even stylistic changes (see WP:OWN). No one has been able to point out an error with any of my edits, and no one has addressed the points I made above. Domer's "discussion" has been to call anything and everything "original research" (a concept he clearly does not understand), even the assertion that the Irish Republican Brotherhood was a brotherhood that sought to establish an Irish Republic (yeah, I was the first to come up with that!). Editors need to address specifics or stop reverting. -R. fiend (talk) 03:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well let's leave all that rancour behind us now. The area of Irish Republicanism has been a bit fraught recently and we all need to stay even more cool than usual. So, without any further comments on the motives or attributes of other editors, is there any way we can accommodate the POV that Domer wishes us to? Within, as you say, the policy on undue weight? Even a minority point of view on something like this should perhaps be mentioned, with the right wording to reflect that it is a minority view, and of course with proper sources. What do you think? Is there a form of words we can live with? --John (talk) 07:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

John, were are the sources which contradict Neeson? If you read the book by Neeson, his comments which I added are in the context of the "Blood Sacrifice." Now no source = it dose not go in. undue weight, is not going to get the WP:OR into the article. If there is an alternative view, well just ensure its verifiable and reliably sourced. First that a military victory was planned. Second, that was their object. So John, just ask for sources, not comment or opinion or an analysis, just references. Improper synthesis of material, is not accepted. --Domer48 (talk) 09:27, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

John it is not the POV which I want to use! It's the POV that some editors want to add. Now they can canvass for support, but they will still need references. Now reference someone saying Neeson's is "a minority point of view." Do you even know how notable they are on this subject? John, references? Just keep asking for them. --Domer48 (talk) 09:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The editor R. fiend (talk) has said that he can just pull a book of a shelf and get refs then why has he not done this so far instead of putting in his own POV. BigDunc (talk) 09:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Did you see they way they introduce undue weight, and suggest Neeson is "a minority point of view," and can not back it up as a reference. They then try to use the quote from Neeson, having not read the book to back them up, improper synthesis of material. BigDunc just ask for sources, not comment, opinion or an analysis, just references. Improper synthesis of material, is not accepted. --Domer48 (talk) 09:58, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposed changes

Since people seem to prefer discussing anything other than the issue at hand, I'll write out my proposed changes, numbered, so people can refute them individually or not at all. I'm just going to ignore any whining about "original research" unless someone can explain how at least one edit even remotely resembles original research.

1) First of all, I don't want to remove Domer's suggest that victory was never considered, I just want to frame it in the proper context. No edit I have made has ever removed that, even though it is contradicted by Florence O'Donoghue in Leaders and Men of the Easter Rising: Dublin 1916, and Kathleen Clarke in My Fight for Ireland's Freedom (not to mention "most books in the past 20 years"). I don't want to get the whole he-said/she-said thing going, as that's not good style, and poor style is becoming prevalent enough in this article. I propose to precede the paragraph that states:

According to historian Eoin Neeson, a plan involving a military victory was never a consideration; while the Leaders considered there would be some military success, an overall military victory was never an objective of the Rising. The IRB set out three objectives for the Rising: First, declare an Irish Republic, second, revitalise the sprit of the people and arouse separatist national fervour, and thirdly, claim a place at the post war peace conference.

with the sentence "While the overall aim of the IRB was the establishment of an Irish Republic, there is doubt that they intended to accomplish this with a single act of armed insurrection". This introduces the topic, and shows how, if victory was never a consideration, it is at least a counterintuitive hypothesis (that would make this one of the few military engagements in history where defeat was actually planned for 2 years ahead of time). No one can say this sentence is "original research". I can add a footnote to the first part of the sentence is need be, but to cite something as obvious as that is poor form. The second part is exactly what is put forward in the rest of the paragraph.

2) Removal (or at least moving) of the sentence "It was Devoy who in 1907 had asked Clarke to return to Ireland to help reorganise the IRB" from the paragraph on negotiations with Germany. This has nothing to do with these negotiations, and disrupts the flow of the paragraph. If it's to be included anywhere, it should be in the "Background" section.

3) Rephrasing the sentence "Since its inception in 1913, the Volunteers, whose formation was instigated by the IRB for precisely this purpose, had fellow IRB members elevated to officer rank whenever possible". Right now is states that "The Volunteers had fellow IRB members elevated..." when what's significant is that IRB members within the Volunteers had fellow IRB men elevated to officer. The use of the word "fellow" is somewhat confusing when preceded by "Volunteers" instead of "IRB". This can lead readers to think that elevation of IRB members was the official policy of the Volunteers, condoned by all the leaders, when this was certainly not the aim of their highest ranking officer, Eoin MacNeill (this can be supported by Michael Tierney's Eoin MacNeill, along with other books). I don't much care how the sentence is reworked, as long as it is stated that the IRB was working to have their fellow members promoted within the Volunteers. It's a pretty minor change.

The only other changes I am proposing right now are minor grammar and stylistic changes, which should not prove controversial to anyone who appreciates half-decent writing. I await refutations of anything above. -R. fiend (talk) 15:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

All that seems logical to me. No OR, no synthesis, no POV-pushing. Bastun 15:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

First one is WP:OR and dose attempt to introduce improper synthesis of material. Provide a reference which states they planned for a military victory. That they achieved two out of three of their objectives, the third being out of their control, is evidenced by the election results in 1918, and the War of Independence in 1919. Second, remove it; I’ll replace it later in the origins section, in context. Third, the IRB members in Leadership positions within the Volunteers ensured that fellow members were placed in high ranking positions. Now get your head around the fact that the IRB from the start were behind the Volunteers. --Domer48 (talk) 15:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Aren't you both agreed that "the IRB members in leadership positions within the Volunteers ensured that fellow IRB members were placed in high ranking positions"? What on earth is the problem with stating that unambigously within the article?! Bastun 15:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I know it sound obvious, but read the discussion, some want to play down the role of the IRB. --Domer48 (talk) 16:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course we're both agreed; it's a widely acknowledged fact. He even basically repeated back exactly what I said: "IRB members in Leadership positions within the Volunteers ensured that fellow members were placed in high ranking positions," the important distinction being IRB members within the Volunteers, rather than just The Volunteers as a whole. If he could add that sentence just as he stated it into the article I'd be happy. (unhelpful personal comments redacted by User:John) Looks like we're agreed on 2 of the 3 edits, and I still can't figure out what his beef with the first one is. -R. fiend (talk) 17:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like we are on the verge of a compromise then. --John (talk) 17:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Great! What now? If no one objects, I'll remove the statement about Devoy and Clarke and see if I can work the information elegantly into the Background section. I'll also see if I can take the sentence "IRB members in Leadership positions within the Volunteers ensured that fellow members were placed in high ranking positions," and include that without losing the information about the IRB instigating the formation of the Volunteers, or making the sentence entirely redundant. What about the first part? I really see no original research there at all. -R. fiend (talk) 18:52, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

One problem with the wording "IRB members in Leadership positions within the Volunteers ensured that fellow members were placed in high ranking positions" the IRB members of the Volunteers, were not all in leadership positions, nor was it only those in leadership that decided who was promoted, the rant and file also had a say in that decision, so remove the in Leadership positions and the wording would be fine.--Padraig (talk) 19:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the wording implies that all IRB men were in leadership positions, so that shouldn't be an issue. The second part is worth considering, though. I have to admit I'm not sure exactly how promotion worked. So you think "IRB members within the Volunteers ensured that fellow members were placed in high ranking positions," is good? I'm fine with that. However, it might not hurt to make clear that there were many IRB men in high positions, so these promotions were helped along by that, even if they didn't have complete control over this. That is probably a minor point, though. -R. fiend (talk) 19:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

1st agreed upon edit made

I just made the first edit that there seems to be a general agreement on. The sentence about Devoy and Clarke has been removed from the paragraph on negotiations with Germany and rephrased and added to the Background section. Problems? Discuss... -R. fiend (talk) 20:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is protected, you have no right to abuse your admin tools. You were told by Luna not to edit it. --Domer48 (talk) 20:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, Luna is not God. Secondly, she didn't say don't edit it, she said "doing so could draw criticism." Since every edit I make seems to draw criticism, it hardly matters to me. Thirdly, do you suddenly have a problem with the edit (which is what you agreed to above), or do you just want to gripe? -R. fiend (talk) 20:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

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