Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:31, 23 December 2007

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

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Disgusting

I would like to say that, as an educator, I find your recent comment which states that "it's a bad educator that bans their students from reading Misplaced Pages" is ignorant, rude, and disrespectful of people who actually know how to teach and have dedicated their lives to doing so. You may revel in amateurism, but professionals can see that this site is a terrible education resource. 1.33% of the Misplaced Pages is tagged for cleanup alone. It may be interesting as a general trivia site, but it is not something I would permit my students to learn from, whether you call me a 'bad educator' or no. 86.142.48.123 (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to write something here but I was stuck in a meeting this morning for 3 hours *groan* I, too, have to disagree with your statement that Misplaced Pages should be accepted for schoolwork. You even included the caveat that only articles that are well-cited should be used. What teacher is going to want to analyze every Misplaced Pages article cited to see if it is acceptable for use? Also, many (if not all) elementary, middle or even high school students would not be able to determine if an article overall has good citations or not. Besides, it is generally accepted that terciary sources are not academically acceptable. I teach my students to use encyclopedias, Misplaced Pages included, only to begin their research when they have no clue about the topic. Also, there is nothing wrong with chaining to the sources that many entries cite like newspaper articles, books etc but use the information from the original... not the encyclopedia. I write you this as one who uses Misplaced Pages extensively (see my user page and WP:SUP) for my writing and Advanced EFL classes. Don't throw down the gauntlet to educators... you get the reaction like the one above. However, keep pushing to make Misplaced Pages better. You are right that students do use it, even if prohibited. Plus, it is proving to be a really excellent way to get students to write and research.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article is entirely misleading about my remarks. My opinion on the proper use of Misplaced Pages in the educational environment has not changed one bit. I believe that our anonymous teacher, above, would respond as the audience did: strong applause. The key, of course, is to hear what I actually said, rather than this misreporting. I have asked the BBC to run a correction.

I believe that educators whose entire response to Misplaced Pages is to tell students not to look at it are in fact bad educators. Good teachers will understand that the right approach is to teach students about the weaknessess - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages. And to caution them that Misplaced Pages is not an acceptable source for an academic citation, any more than Britannica is. Thelmadatter, I agree absolutely with your remarks about the use of Misplaced Pages in the classroom, and based on reading what you have said, I suspect we would have to work really hard in a conversation to find any differences in our opinions at all on these matters.  :-) So, I plead innocent.--Jimbo Wales 19:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, I think that the point here is not whether or not Misplaced Pages can give students accurate facts, but the evidence for these facts. When I was a student and writing essays etc. I would always have to include a bibliography unless it was clearly stated that something was my own opinion. Misplaced Pages professes to be an encyclopedia yet "encyclopedia" actually translates from the Greek as "well rounded education". How much of a well rounded education can one get from a series of "facts" that are marked ? And before you say, adding that is not a caveat for you, since you say you are an encyclopedia. You mention about teaching the "weaknesses - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages" but why should teachers have to? You may think I'm being pedantic. Fair enough, stop calling yourselves an encyclopedia then. Just my "2 cents". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.172.247 (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting? No way. It was a good BBC article and good to see you yet again promoting wikipedia and this time in Old Blighty. Would that I had access to such a vast body of knowledge when I was a teenager and of course those of today should be encouraged to use it. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

could you tell us what you really did say?Thelmadatter (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a video or audio anywhere, but I said basically the same things that I always say. If you have seen any of my speeches where I address these questions, well, I said what I always say. (Basically, teachers can use wikipedia as a teaching opportunity to help students better assess information sources. Misplaced Pages has strengths and weaknesses. An outright ban is silly... you can tell students not to listen to rock and roll music, too. But accepting wikipedia as a citable source is not really right either.)--Jimbo Wales 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree Misplaced Pages has some flaws like anything else, BUT it is fairly new and getting better every single day. I would strongly argue that the educational system has so many more flaws, and it has had over a 100 years to reform itself. As an author, I can state that I have probably learned double the amount of information on wiki than I did in school. Our schools have ancient textbooks which have become antiquated, wiki has thousands of editors that keep everything up to the minute, from new science advances to news updates. Once they perfect all the flows in the wiki system, I strongly believe the world will embrace it as the new system for learning and education. I quote the great Thomas Edison who I believe was the greatest genius of all time: "Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work." I completely agree with Edison. In the 21st century, not much has changed with the school system, it is almost as it was one hundred years ago (that is disgusting)! I believe wiki is a system that encourages students to think and participate in history, science, and current events. Thank you Jimbo for starting Misplaced Pages!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 08:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One of my teachers frequently cites Misplaced Pages. He first gives the page a read over, then tells us to look at the specific article. He thinks it's a valuable resource. I agree with him. I learned a lot from Misplaced Pages on my Software Engineering course, and I did well on an essay (something I don't do much of on my course) thanks to Misplaced Pages. --Deskana (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that any good teacher should say "do read Misplaced Pages but don't trust Misplaced Pages - use it as a starting point". Any reference to Misplaced Pages as a resource necessarily has to include the need to look at the page history, the article talk, and the internal and external links. The article the student sees is only a node on a temporal trajectory (can I trademark that?). My first contribution to en:wikipedia (as an IP) was following up on an argument in a pub about orbital mechanics. Don't try this at home kids! :) Geostationary orbit said 9 miles above the surface of the Earth and I looked at it 17 times, got my CRC Handbook out, checked two websites, I knew it was obviously wrong, I couldn't just walk away, but I had to be sure that "Undo" was going to make things right. So at any given time, there are errors and I could have left that one - and if people in any way learn to rely on Misplaced Pages, well, don't shoot your mouth off in your local pub based on it and for God's sake don't build any bridges or railways. I hope Jimbo would agree that the key is to teach how to use Misplaced Pages, it is not the answer, it's the way to find the answer. Franamax (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And there's the tradeoff between accuracy and accessability. If you use anything on the internet which is free, you usually have just the same problem as with Misplaced Pages (PUBMED govt subsidized medical references being a major exception). And what are the chances you're going to spend the afternoon at the local library pulling tomes off shelves to get something you really know you can trust? Usually you don't need to trust anything that much. It's NOT the airplane or bridge you're building-- if you do that for living, somebody has bought you refs that you damn well CAN trust. So what do you use Misplaced Pages for? Somebody's doc sends them for a PET scan and they and you want to know what that is. In 10 min with a computer or even the right cell phone, you can find out more about PET scans than the average MD knew 10 years ago. And most of what's in Misplaced Pages is accurate, or if it is not, it's obvious that it's been messed with, because 99.999% of vandals are fools and all they can do is delete stuff or add scatology. Changing a decimal in an orbital calculation is actually what you very seldom find. SBHarris 21:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As I have said many times, while WP is not itself a reliable source (you never know when the page you load will say POOP), it is an excellent and possibly unparalleled resource for finding reliable sources on almost any topic. That is why some of us have worked hard to make the footnoted cites as complete as possible, so that any kid in a library can go find those sources. - Crockspot (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

But it is a joke academically. Students cannot be steered towards mercurial matter without serous warning.i.e. "Never use Misplaced Pages". opiumjones 23 (talk) 22:47, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Crockspot makes a good point. WP, for all its issues, is an excellent place to start one's search. It's more productive than the first 3 pages on Google in any number of searches. Also, WP serves as an ongoing exercise in fact-checking. It can be used as a great opportunity to teach students how to evaluate information in any given source. This is a skill that seems to be lacking in many students, a lack that was present prior to WP. But I have to say, while WP is usually judged in terms on its encyclopedic content (that is from non-editorial utility), not enough attention has been paid to the value of editorial utility. WP has value from an editorial perspective because it is praxis, theory in practice. Here, theories of knowledge production, electronic community, difference, and privilege play out in the most interesting ways. If nothing else, WP is a great petri dish for online communication. In this sense, we do not give WP enough credit for the social experiment that it is. There are a number of ways WP can be used as a tool in academic discourses. While I think it is reasonable and responsible for teachers to disqualify WP as a reliable source, it is irresponsible for teachers to categorically dismiss WP as an educational tool. Phyesalis (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

"more productive than the first 3 pages on Google"?? - Misplaced Pages IS the first 3 pages on Google! All other points taken as written. :) Franamax (talk) 16:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

WP is definitely an educational tool for all the reason cited above... just let me add one other as a teacher of English in a foreign country (Mexico)... nothing gets my students more riled up and ready to write than showing them a page about their country poorly written. Music of Mexico has been edited a billion times but STILL when my students critique it, they got a ton of criticisms. But it serves as a great motivator, most of my students wish that the world knew Mexico better than it does (e.g. they dont all wear sombreros and drink tequila under a cactus all day!) so I tell them here is their chance to DO something! I think other English as a foreign language teachers in other countries should consider having their students write in WP, even if it is just about their hometowns. This benefits WP too, as these students have access to information and able to write about things the average native English speaker could never have or do.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:15, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like to agree that Misplaced Pages is a good place to begin a search for information. Beyond that, however, the "Did you know?" and "Random Article" features, along with the internal links, make it an enjoyable place just to visit and find out some new things. Kudos! Hal peridol (talk) 19:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Two suggestions

1) To decrease vandalism: I was wondering why WP is allowing everyone to edit user pages. Vandals are mainly targeting user pages. So if you make it mandatory that users with a specific editing history/time registered only are able to edit user’s pages (& talk pages). Recently I saw an admin's user page that “This user identifies as gay” userbox on the top list. I was little frustrated though it can be true. When I checked the same page next time, it was removed and I knew that was vandalism. So, if you altered it to what I mentioned, I think it may produce with productive results.

If Misplaced Pages blocks other users from editing another person's user page, then it would be hard to edit spelling mistakes. However, it is a good idea that the user has the sole privilege to edit his own user page. All in favor? --Marianian (talk) 12:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are many bots operating, that helps AutoCorrect spelling. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

2) To make it more user friendly: All external links should open in a different window. As per existing program it is redirecting to the same window, which I feel not a good work. How do you think? --Avinesh Jose (talk) 09:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both proposals. They're good ideas, especially the first one. Look at the state of my userpage history, due to high vandalism rates. It doesn't really bother me that much, because some kind users always turn up and mend it for me if I don't notice. But every little helps! (Just be careful about how you word that bit about gay users...it kind of sounds like seeing a user with a gay identification userbox on his page frustrates you.) ;-) Lradrama 12:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are legitimate reasons why someone would want to edit someone else's user page - updating migrated userboxes, removing inappropriate content (copyright violations, fair use images, spam etc), some users are quite happy with other people editing their user page - so there would need to be some provision for allowing people to edit other people's user pages if this scheme is to work. Hut 8.5 17:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, what I meant was make the program such a way that only established users/admins/ users with specific time registered are only allowed to edit user pages in order to prevent vandalism. Because it is true that many vandals are using it through anonymous IP address / newly created user id. In my opinion, that should not allow. If a new user had come across any illegal/CopyVio text in anonther user’s page, they can immediately notice that to their (admins) attention, instead of them editing it-if this alteration is to work. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandals mainly target user pages? Simply not true, the great majority of vandalism is to the main space. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:22, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I am just saying user page is one of the main targets for vandals along with main space. Most user page vandalism occurs in retaliation for a contributor's efforts to deal with vandalism and are the main victims by personal attacks, abusive comments etc. If you (Jimmy) alter the program according what I suggested, don’t you think it as a good idea of putting a stop to vandals? --Avinesh Jose (talk) 05:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree on second proposition, but this is not at all the place to propose it. Joshdboz (talk) 17:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Then tell me where can I post it? I think Jimmy is not interested in my proposal?--Avinesh Jose (talk) 11:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:VPR. Hut 8.5 18:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I cited a link to here from WP:VPR. --Avinesh Jose (talk) 04:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I do agree that while its easy to remain dispassionate about main space vandalism that people do get affected by having their user pages used by trolls in order to make deeply offensive personal attacks. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Registered users can choose to make external links open in a new window at Gadgets in Special:Preferences. I think it should remian off as default. PrimeHunter (talk) 04:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, excellent! I was suggesting to people pushing 'EL's open in a new window' that they request it as an optional feature; I didn't know it was already built into the interface. I agree with you that it should remain off unless deliberately turned on, as that is the way that html links work by default. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Uprising of the righteous in de.wikipedia.org

Dear Jimbo, I'd like to draw your attention to a call for vandalism in the German speaking Misplaced Pages made by established users. This group wants to censor vector graphics of NS symbols so that (dumb) Neo-Nazis could not make use of our high quality images. Please speak out against this plan.

It is a heated debate which lead to an admin blocking me for two hours for stating my opinion. When I complained about it other admins affirmed that I had not violated the rules and therefore the block was unjust. For answering the question what I think why I was blocked I have been blocked for additional 24 hours (“NPA”). Some have argued that my points were legitimate and my block should be revoked but no one did—who would dare to defend a “swastika lover”?

As I understand your statement of principles you agree with me that Misplaced Pages is an open project and no one should be excluded on the grounds of group membership. This means every imaginable group is generally welcomed at Misplaced Pages: Neo-Nazis, misogynists, child molesters etc. This consideration makes one not feel comfortable but it is the truth: all these groups are already readers and Wikipedians. Neither our license nor our five pillars forbid those groups the use and participation. I ask you to publicly admit this fact and elaborate your rationale behind these terms and conditions. --mms (talk) 12:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you really think Jimbo would meddle into de. Admin decisions? He would be not clever to do so, and I do think that he is clever.

And do you really think that the people reading your statement here are interested in such internal affairs? --d2dMiles (talk) 13:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Congratulations, Jimbo! You have been selected being unser Führer of German WP :-( Seriuosly! sorry, but not kidding. And he is not blocked yet. Misplaced Pages, erwache! --195.4.209.76 (talk) 16:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Führer? Gott im Himmel... Allow me to propose a quote from William Tecumseh Sherman. When he learned that there was a movement to make him president of the United States, he answered I will not accept if nominated and will not serve if elected. Durova 18:15, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing to führ äh fear, mms just told on de:WP:FZW, our Village Pump, that he loves Swastikas. In my opinion is this in Germany and Austria not quite OK and a prosecutor would propably be quite interested, albeit our servers are not located in Germany. Leave mms alone, standing near persons playing russian roulette can hurt bystanders too. Achates (talk) 19:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Please no personal attacks. We are in en.wikipedia.org here. No one is interested whether you think it is “quite okay” to love swastikas or not. But I’m still very interested what Jimbo thinks about writing Misplaced Pages for the benefit of Neo-Nazis and the like. --mms (talk) 20:19, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I've just read that thread and I don't see either side professing a fondness for swastikas. It's poor form to make these insinuations, particularly in a venue where most people are unable to read the original. It's a discussion between two sets of reasonable people that has deteriorated from sarcasm to animosity on a topic that would be sensitive in any language, but nowhere more so than in German. Each language edition creates its own consensus policies. Here in English we retain all material of encyclopedic value, regardless of its potential to give offense, and the community manages the occasional individuals attempt to exploit sensitive images for shock value. It isn't for us to dictate our solutions to other languages. Yet I do suggest you refrain from using polarizing tactics. Durova 20:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

So after you read the discussion you came to the conclusion that there are no devoted swastika lovers or real Neo-Nazis involved. This may be true but it doesn’t mean there is no issue. What would you do if there were Neo-Nazis? I understand that my request for clarification of the principles is way out of the day to day business and you may need some time to decide how far free “free” means. But I have to be emphatic about it as this is crucial to my further participation. Maybe you, Jimbo, and the majority speak out against Neo-Nazis in Misplaced Pages and maybe against some other groups, too. I’m sceptical to exclusions of all kinds but I believe a community should set up its own rules. If it is consensus (or nearly consensus) to exclude some groups I suggest to rewrite the principles and amend the license accordingly. I have been blocked for a year in the German speaking Misplaced Pages for a deduction from the main principles: we write articles and redraw images to support Neo-Nazis. --mms (talk) 13:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Since this is the English language Misplaced Pages, please refer to two policies: WP:POINT and WP:NOT#Not a battleground. Your yearlong block on the German Misplaced Pages does not extend to this language edition, although it may be noted if serious questions arise about your conduct here. I hope you adjust well. In the best of all worlds, perhaps good work at this project will earn you an early return to the German Misplaced Pages. I do advise against using inflammatory symbols in userboxes here. Our mission is to create an online encyclopedia, not to test the boundaries of anarchy or free speech. Durova 22:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Mms, do you think, if you compare Jimbo with Adolf Hitler, he would help you? “unser Führer”, isn't it a little bit awkward? -- 87.165.144.7 (talk) 12:02, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Referring to Jimbo as our “Führer” was my reaction to the insinuations against me. Jimbo calls himself leader which is a literal translation to Führer. So I see no obstacles why he should not answer my question. --mms (talk) 13:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Biographies of living persons

Hello Mr. Wales, (and everyone else :) ), I don't like having to come here with a question about such a basic principle of editing Misplaced Pages. However the community as a whole seems to be confused, so I'm wondering what you had intended in the first place.

Barbara Schwarz is someone you may have already heard about, but in case you haven't I'll sum up the contention as concisely as possible since I realize you are probably very busy. To be blunt, Ms Schwarz has serious issues with reality, but has done some very notable things. In pursuit of information she believes is being held by various departments/agencies of several states, and even the federal government, she has filed more FOIA requests than anyone else in the act's history. Making her more notable is the fact that she then chose to pro se sue many of those agencies, and even specific employees by the hundreds when they were unable to find what she was looking for. In the process she was heard by the Supreme Court and her story was reported in the Salt Lake Tribune around 2003. She then sued the paper despite the fact she was not misrepresented and the paper was merely reporting both sides of her story. Needless to say she didn't like her article here either, Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of The real Barbara Schwarz and has been trying to have it removed with some support by other Wikipedians. In general the community seemed to understand the notability of her court actions when such discussions came up:Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (2nd nomination) - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (3rd nomination) - Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Barbara Schwarz (4th nomination).

When I asked myself if this article was worthy of inclusion on Misplaced Pages, and thus worthy of my time, I compared Ms Schwarz to others who have done notable things while not in touch with reality. Would the Sylvia Seegrist or Laurie Dann artcles be removed if Sylvia or Dann's family asked? I answered no, because their actions were notable enough for inclusion in reliable secondary sources. Even though Ms Schwarz hasn't killed anyone, she has made herself notable by her actions in court.

I'd like to know what your (and anyone else's here) opinion on Schwarz and our biographies of living people policy, are they compatible? (Just to be clear, I don't plan on going around saying "This is what Jimbo said...", rather just want to know if you intended such articles to exist or not so I know if I've been wrong. I'm also not asking for any intervention.) Thank you, Anynobody 01:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

DRV at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 December 19#Barbara Schwarz. Cool Hand Luke 02:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I think she is clearly non-notable and that the DRV came to the right conclusion. I also think that reasonable people can differ, and indeed in the DRV discussion I see some very sane voices arguing for a "keep". I don't agree with them, but that's ok: it is not up to me to decide deletion debates, of course. To me it looks like the process worked fine. I normally prefer that the process work fine, and reach a decision I don't agree with from time to time, than to have a broken process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your time, thanks very much and enjoy the holidays :) Anynobody 02:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Latest Metz/Register article

Cade Metz recently wrote a reasoned opinion piece on the inherent conflict in Misplaced Pages between anonymity and COI . Which do you think should have priority as Misplaced Pages moves forward, COI or anonymity? Also, just one more question...you said that you had only a few hours notice before the Doran article came out in the Register...Did Cade request that you contact him a couple of days before the Doran article was released, and, if so, what was your response? Cla68 (talk) 11:39, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

My response was that I don't speak to the Register. I guess you know that since you were cc'd on the email.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

While I think The Register needs a new hobby, there is a good question above; "Which do you think should have priority as Misplaced Pages moves forward, COI or anonymity?". I would like to hear your views on this, if possible. Thanks! - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I think both COI and anonymity take a backseat to NPOV. Sometimes anonymity helps us to preserve NPOV, sometimes not. We do not have a hard and fast rule against COI editing, but rather some soft recommendations mostly designed to help people who may have COIs understand that they risk doing damage to the very cause they are seeking to advance, if they behave inappropriately at Misplaced Pages. In general, I think that anonymity... the right of people to edit as either ip numbers or as usernames without validating who they are... is not just valuable but incredibly valuable, and I would oppose any moves to get rid of it very firmly.

I don't think Cade Metz' piece is a reasoned criticism, really, but just typical of him. He starts with a falsehood: "In Wikiland, you aren't allowed to edit articles where you have a conflict of interest" and goes downhill from there. Nuance is not the forte of The Register.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Jimbo for that. Needless to say, I completely agree that NPOV takes charge in those possible COI situations. Happy Holidays! - Rjd0060 (talk) 15:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

While the Register is respected in the UK, with good reason, I really do think that article was scraping the bottom of the barrel. Our assuming good faith policy should cover this, after all which similar enterprise (My Space and Facebook come to mind) assume bad faith of users who aren't engaging in suspiciously illegal acts (and COI ain't that). We already allow usersx not to be anonymous and otherwise we should assume good faith. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying AGF on the Registers' part? I dont think AGF applies externally. - Rjd0060 (talk) 16:49, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all, I am saying we at wikipedia must assume good faith in our editors, regardless of whether they are anonymous, as long as we believe they are not engaging in illegal activities on wikipedia. Which would destroy the Metz argument that we should somehow assume bad faith of some of our anonymous editors, based on COI. Thanks, SqueakBox 17:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) I think dislike for the sources, and insularity, is causing a dismissal of a deep structural issue - WP:AGF doesn't resolve the problem that anonymity and conflict-of-interest is an open invitation for a lot of bad-faith editing. Whenever this discussion comes up, I see replies I'd characterize as that, in theory, in a perfect world with perfect people, there should be no problems because Misplaced Pages policies say everyone should play nice. However, it's an imperfect world, with imperfect people, and many of them play very nasty indeed. You can't escape this issue by saying it's against policy, because the policies are applied by people, and thus there's an incentive to game the system. Outsiders keep writing about this in various ways, because it's very obvious to anyone who looks into what goes on in terms of real conflict-resolution. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 20:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Seasons greetings

Seasons Greetings Jimbo Wales Happy New Year !

Take a look

Please,look at Horton, Alabama and tell me if it is any good at my talk. 1Bookfan Talk

Hallo!

Hallo,herr Jakob.

Jes,spreche auf Deusch.Verrlassen Sie mich eine Nachritch an Ein Buchanhanger Rede .

Auf Wiedersehen und gluckliche Feiertage! Ein Buchanhanger

Hallo

@L-drama : if Jimbo's invitation on German Misplaced Pages to come to this page for comments is written in German, then sort it out with Jimbo if you want to have comments in German deleted from this page. Currently, Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines#Good practice only mandates that you ask for a translation, not that you erase a comment in a different language. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:22, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It might be worth knowing that I am NOT German, and thus couldn't make sense of what you were trying to show me in the slightest. If you'd done as I asked, and discussed it with me on my talkpage, we might have got a bit further in understanding each other. (Sorry about this BTW Jimbo). Lradrama 13:42, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Er, you already know you can't go around to anyone else's user talk page and just delete non-English conversation, right? Well you can't do it here either, even if it might seem more "public" than most user talk pages. Nigel Barristoat (talk) 14:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the inconvenience. I think I need a Wikibreak... Lradrama 14:07, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Particularly since I can read German (though barely and badly), I would appreciate if German language comments are left here. Also, since I try to stay in contact with all language communities and offer my assistance in the event of internal disputes, I would appreciate if no comments ever be deleted from here on language-grounds alone.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Thanks, SqueakBox 16:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

And from that last exchange, you can guess why it's probably a good thing that JFK gave that speech in Berlin and not Vienna... Season's greetings. SBHarris 18:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Well once again, I'm very sorry, my mistake. It will not happen again. ;-) Lradrama 18:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to say i'm very sorry if I made anybody mad.I want peace to exist here,so tell me if you are angry at me for leaving a comment in German.1bookfan 23:19, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

No one is angry about your use of German on this page; some of us were merely confused. It happens, here as elsewhere. Mr. Wales has invited commentary in German, so it would ill behoove any of the rest of us to take any other position. Bielle (talk) 23:40, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

hi there

ok well this is like my last attempt to try to talk to someone here... ...i have been banned as a user for some time now (User:Iamandrewrice), having been said to have many sockpuppets. However, this is not true, as another user (User:Joeseth1992) pretended to be me and hacked my account, making sockpuppets himself, and then leading to a phenomenon in which even though I was trying to explain my situation to fellow wikipedians, no one would listen, as they all thought that I was lying and that all the sockpuppets were mine, even though they had nothing to do with me. I really want to help edit the site, and it would really make me smile this xmas if you allowed me once again to operate here. I would very much appreciate it if the other users could be informed that many of the messages that they have read and received that they believe to be me, were in fact from another user who was impersonating me. (I know this user in real life by the way). Please please please try and help me out... if you would like a full detailed step-by-step explanation of everything that has happened, I can email it to you, but it is quite long. Well whatever you decide, please email me here on benniguy@hotmail.co.uk

Thanks a lot... and have a nice xmas

89.241.196.68 (talk) 13:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

87 Socks huh? How many wasted man-hours wasted is that..? In the spirit of both naiveté and the holiday (God, admins, and WP:BEANS forgive me for this), why don't you create a new account and edit constructively and anonymously, leaving the past behind you (the incivility, disruptiveness, socking etc...). In any case, I can almost guarantee you that neither your main or the various sockpuppets will ever be unblocked. —Cronholm 18:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

You were community banned Ben. Your attempt earlier this week to discuss this resulted in yet another round of sockpuppetry that forced Misplaced Pages to block nearly 200.000 IP's in 3 separate rangeblocks for 3 hours. If you want to appeal your ban then talk to Jeff about it. ArbCom is the way to do this, Jimbo doesn't normally respond here himself. This started as a simple 1 hour cool down block, you escalated this yourself. Merry Christmas Ben - I really hope that you willl somehow be able to return at some point in the future and continue the fine progress you made before this happened. EconomicsGuy (talk) 19:00, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, well those sockpuppets werent me though. ALthough they were someone I know in real life (apart from about 50 or so accounts that i dont even know who they are that you identified with me). But I really am sorry for being rude originally, but I really would like to continue editing. Can you please allow me to? Because if I make a new account... everyone will blcok me straight away... do I have permission to start a new account then? thanks 89.243.4.19 (talk) 20:18, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

oh by the way, the user who i know in real life (who made all the other accounts, pretending to be me) has got other other accounts, and will probably continue to pretend to be me, as he wont listen to me... please dont believe that they are me :S

89.243.4.19 (talk) 20:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude, you are a genius.

Thank you so much for founding Misplaced Pages. I don't know what I'd do without it. If I need info, I always come here first. Wiki rules! A pyrate's life for me... (talk) 16:21, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Guten Tag!

Guten Tag, mein Herr. Wie geht's? Ich liebe Deustch!!!!! Translation: Hello, sir. How's it going? I love German!!!!! Good luck learning the language. I've been taking classes for two years, myself. Awesome language.

Froliche Weinachten und ein gluckes neues Jahr!!!!

Ichliebezuko (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Ichliebezuko (talk) 16:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry people, I'm leaving this German text well and truly alone! ;-) Lradrama 20:19, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Translating

Hi Jimbo! If you need help for understanding german messages or if you want to understand german Misplaced Pages articles, etc., I´d be glad to help you! Whenever you want Dagadt (talk) 16:30, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Jimbo

What are the patrolers, Stewards, Board vote admins, developers and imports of Misplaced Pages? And another question also: do you have some special things only you, with your "founder" status, can do? ----Yours, User:Deba Tihs ´n´ Mad Dog (right place to talk to me is here) 18:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:User access levels. patrolled edits are disabled on the English Misplaced Pages but we can patrol new pages. Jimbo Wales has the founder privilege. Graham87 06:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

JzG

Jimbo, please have a word with JzG. This is a complete misrepresentation of the history of Awbrey's edits and concerns. Admins should show greater respect for the truth, for the content-editors that create Misplaced Pages content, and for the moral and legal aspects of plagiarism and copyright. JzG has been treating Awbrey like enemy number one and this is merely his latest personal attack. When will we as a community tell admins that insist on creating and angering enemies to stop it? This is just poisonous. We should be better than WR, not imitate them. Further, it hurts the encyclopedia when people delete content just because the person who wrote it is now disruptive. There was no issue with Awbrey's article content on math/logic articles until after he was justly banned and then decided to act as disruptively as possible. Finally, when an admin gets to the point that he literally says he would rather "we be sued"; I think he needs to step away from the computer and take a nice bike ride in the park. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

But no banned editor has the right to edit here? Or are you claiming they do? In which case you should not DO SO. Defending some banned troll and in the process attacking of our most respected admins isnt right. What is going on, WAS? Normally you behave impeccably but this looks like trolling to me. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

In this case, I am solely referring to edits to logic/math articles that Awbrey made prior to being justly banned. He was not banned for any edit that he made to math/logic articles. He was banned for being disruptive in non-article space. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:48, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

As for "what is going on": the short story is that Awbrey is angry at Guy and Guy is angry at Awbrey and the result is not helpful to Misplaced Pages. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The campaign against Misplaced Pages Review seems to be growing more and more bizarre by the day. Last month the community got dragged through sockpuppet-hunting paranoia a la User:!!; are we now to the point that a user an administrator here is trying to erase the contribution history of a person who participates there? Give me a break. Videmus Omnia 23:56, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I think we all need a break. - "our most respected admins" I love it! Giano (talk) 00:09, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

He clearly is, and I am taking my work break from today. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:10, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I would have to say that characterizing Guy as one of our "most respected admins" is an unsupported claim, though you're certainly entitled to your opinion. In my interactions with him, I've found him to be abrasive, confrontational, and dismissive. Videmus Omnia 16:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I have not reviewed the entire history but I can state some general principles which might be helpful here. First, when someone is banned from Misplaced Pages, their prior edits unless somehow bad can surely be allowed to stand in the general case, although there can be special cases. (For example, if a stalker has written an article about his victim, it can be best after the stalker is banned to simply delete that article and start over from scratch, as a courtesy to the victim.) At first glance, though, the debate JzG is commenting on does not seem to be about deleting content just because the person who wrote it is now disruptive, is it? It is some kind of argument about merging/moving content?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

<<<Jon Awbrey spent something like a year faithfully contributing to Misplaced Pages based on his widely acknowledged expertise in Charles Peirce and his work, a very important figure in the history of logic. That expertise made his contributions to logic/math articles to be beyond reproach to people who knew the subject (although readability by non-experts was and is an issue). But he ran into trouble on articles like Truth where he had to edit with people who could not understand his specialized expert vocabulary and Jon was poorly equipped to fully appreciate WP:NPOV leading to charges of breaking WP:NOR leading him to go to the policy talk page at WP:NOR where he was abused and misinformed by that page's owners; leading to a dramatic self-destruction wherein he began to disrupt Misplaced Pages as much as possible and continues to do so (I tried to help, but he was having none of it, his mind was made up). This latest battle in Jon's war of honor is described by Jon (aka Jonny Cache) here. Especially relevant is this quote:"The crux of the matter is this. I contributed content to Misplaced Pages that to this day adds to the credibility of Misplaced Pages. Nobody but nobody has the right to use that credibility to discredit me. If Guy Chapman can get away with asserting unchecked lies on the Wikienlist and on Misplaced Pages and no one in that so-called community calls him on it, then Misplaced Pages as a whole has forfeited the right to continue using those contributions." I love logic and do not wish to allow Guy to create a situation where Misplaced Pages's logic articles are eviscerated just because Guy is angry at Jon. Jon does not want the articles deleted, he just wants Guy to cease defaming him by claiming his contributions were "original research". Guy has used this fight as an excuse to remove information and redirect and wipe Jon's attribution from the records. There is no reason for all this removal and redirection in the first place except for Guy defaming Jon and causing this stupid fight. Let's put the content of the encyclopedia ahead of the emotional satisfaction of "winning" against enemies. WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The user in question did not, in fact, have the expertise that you seem to be assuming for him, and the problems he encountered on Truth were perhaps not because the other editors didn't understand the specialist vocabulary, but because they did understand it.

The importance of our content policies lies in the fact that, when someone arrives claiming to be an expert, we don't have to worry about whether they're telling the truth. What we ask of all editors (expert and non-expert alike) is that they rely on the best secondary sources they can find. This is something that real experts will be able to do, because they'll have read the secondary literature. You'll know the real experts by their edits, because they'll be able to tell us what other experts think about the subject, not only what they think about it themselves. That is something Jon Awbrey could never do.

Take this edit as an example of the problems in the Truth article (I don't know whether he wrote it originally, or just moved it from elsewhere, but regardless, he's the one who added it to Truth). Kant is here used as an example of a philosopher discussing the correspondence theory of truth. But Kant didn't discuss the correspondence theory of truth. He may have assumed the validity of it, as did most philosophers, but it's misleading to say that he wrote about it, and then to cherry pick a quote of his to back that up. Kant is an example of a writer so difficult to understand that primary-source analysis is bound to come a cropper, because even experts — people who've been studying him all their lives — disagree about what he meant in various places.

The best thing now would be to find a specialist Wikipedian to review Awbrey's material, but that will take some time, as people who understand this stuff are few and far between, and they have their own articles to work on. In the meantime, regarding any of his material that's based on primary sources (and my memory of the stuff of his I saw is that it was always based on primary sources), it's probably safe to assume it's original research for which a secondary source might be hard to find. SlimVirgin 20:25, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

There is that Assumption of non-Good Faith previously mentioned, that

"...it's probably safe to assume it's original research..."

just after admitting that it would take an(other) expert to make a reasonable judgement on the validity. WAS 4.250's comment holds that the material is not being removed on the basis of original or faulty verified research, but because of a clash of personality. Since Awbrey's contributions fall outside of BLP concerns it is surely safe to allow disputed (on the basis of author, not validity) material to remain? The fact that the material has remained to this point must indicate that either passing experts have had no problem with the article(s) or that it is too difficult for those that have reviewed it to form a decision on its merits. By all means let us find an expert to pronounce upon the validity of the content, but lets not remove it in the meantime on poorer considerations of personality clashes. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no assumption of bad faith, rather a familiarity with Awbrey's edits. He based his edits largely on primary sources, often in areas in which he had no qualifications. This is part of the very definition of original research -- basing contentious edits on your own, idiosyncratic opinion of what complex primary-source material says. I think the fact that it has remained in the articles suggests not, as you say, that passing experts have no problem with it, but more that passing experts have not, in fact, passed. It's because of the difficulty of evaluating this kind of work that OR is very much frowned upon, because in certain areas, it's difficult sometimes even for experts to be sure of what's right and wrong. Therefore, edits that lack good secondary sources really should be removed if a request for secondary sources produces none. SlimVirgin 22:42, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't read like a bad faith assumption to me. Surely if we have reasonable doubts as to whether something is original research and we can find no secondary sources then that is the time to remove the contentious material, even by an editor who doesn't fully understand the subject matter but does understand our original research policy. Thanks, SqueakBox 21:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I said non-Good, not bad, which is different. It's a nuance that I should have realised might be missed.

Where does the doubt arise when we cannot understand the content, and cannot find the secondary sources to qualify it? The criteria for inclusion of content is verifiable (not verified) so we have to find the expert (cited) view that the content is unsupported, per my understanding of Original Research. Only then can the articles be amended. Thanks. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:57, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The content is unsupported by secondary sources. I gave you an example above, where Awbrey made an edit about Kant, based only on his understanding of Kant's original writing, even though he has no expertise in philosophy. And the edit that he made goes to the very heart of expert disagreement about which approach Kant took to the issue of knowledge and truth. Awbrey simply assumed that he knew which approach was correct (or else he is not familiar with the dispute). This is what's wrong with OR. SlimVirgin 22:45, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to leave this at Squeakbox's comments below, but... The initial comment on this topic was regarding Guys comments/proposed actions in relation to Charles Peirce and Awbreys contributions. This is what WAS 4.250 and I, and I believe Squeakbox, were referring to. Difficulties with Awbrey's edits to Truth, or other articles, has only tangiable in relation to this; there are plenty of "difficult communication" and WP:OWN editors contributing to Misplaced Pages still. While Squeakbox's position of conservative approach to unverified content has its merits, certainly I was content to leave the discussion at that point, I still feel that it is not this principle that is guiding Guys considerations regarding the Charles Pierce article. I am also concerned that there isn't the desire to investigate whether there are the sources to verify the content that is simply based on the individual who initially provided the text - problematic in other articles as they might be. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well okay, non-good faith. I tend to go for the more conservative remove the material first and then restore once verified as we cannot afford to get things wrong, Thanks, SqueakBox 22:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

And while assuming good faith is very important in our personal interactions the most important thing is the finished product and we should surely always act conservatively and cautiously in order to endsure the quality of our product as our primary mission. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:08, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure Guy's actions are completely guided by WP:AGF in regards to this. By the way, what was the last featured article Guy wrote? </sarc> Videmus Omnia 00:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I have read bits and bobs lately implying that those who write featured articles are somehow better than the rest of us, and I include myself as someone who has never seriously contributed towards a featured or indeed even a good article. We have over 2 million articles and only a tiny minority ever make GA status and yet we are cl;early judged ont rhe encyclopedia as a whole while BLP may effect a tenth of articles. I don't even buy that everyone needs to be editing articles to be useful here but do object to the implication that those of us who edit articles on subjects and people we consider important and improve hundreds and thousands of articles in little ways are somehow an inferiror type of editor. Knowing your work with images, Videmus, I hope you agree with me here. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Squeakbox, I don't mean that at all, and I appreciate the BLP work that you do. But I am deathly sick of admins that seem to feel entitled to set themselves up as the cops of the project, without making any meaningful contributions to content. I think we'd all be better off if they just buggered off, or went back to writing articles. Videmus Omnia 02:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, My Good People, these sorts of problems are so much easier to solve than you all make out. Darkdealt (talk) 02:36, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

If a user's past contributions are considered original research, perhaps DarkDealt's method is the correct way of dealing with it? It is a shame though. The contributions of Jon Awbrey look fine to me. You don't need citations for every single little fact. Is there something I'm missing here? Ripberger (talk) 03:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked Darkdealt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) indefinitely as a sockpuppet created to edit war. If that obviously-experienced editor wishes to make major edits on apparently contentious topics, then he or she is welcome to do so under his regular username. The last thing that a contentious topic needs is a brand-new single-purpose account making major edits on behalf of another editor. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see from Dark's contributions that he was editing warring. I don't understand your reasoning to block him. Ripberger (talk) 03:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I bring to your attention, without further comment, item 7 in this list of observations on Misplaced Pages behavior. Raymond Arritt (talk) 03:50, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a single-purpose account created solely to dive into a contentious area; the editor even created user and user talk pages to camouflage the account's newness (turn his user and talk links blue). He invoked the name of another editor (SlimVirgin) in making edits to articles that are at the center of an ongoing dispute. In only an hour after his first edit, he managed to find his way to the middle of a conflict on Jimbo Wales' talk page.

If he wishes to contribute to this discussion, he can do so under his regular account name and stake his own reputation. Creating a puppet to pick a fight is just not allowed. If you've got any more questions about the block, you should probably take it to my talk page; if you think I've misused the block button, then you should address the matter to WP:AN/I. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 03:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Ten, I have replied on your talk page. Sorry, for taking up your talk space, Mr. Wales! Ripberger (talk) 08:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I have reversed Darkdealts edit to Truth. If it was an inflammatory act, by a now indef blocked account, then I felt the status quo needed restoring - I have no opinion on the validity of the removed text and would be happy if it were removed following consensus. LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:39, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for Jimbo

Dear Jimbo,

Please Let Us Update Special:Ancientpages. 09:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you.

Carolyn Bothwell Doran

Most businesses have personnel worries like this but don't have AP articles written about them. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:33, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. David Gerard has a nice way of putting it. When filling out a form, do we check the >100,000 box or the <10 box? What he means when he says that is that we are simultaneously a small nonprofit organization, quite non-notable in terms of the overall size of the organization, and also a top 10 website with a huge media profile. There is no excuse for the Wikimedia Foundation having hired someone like Carolyn Doran; it was a major misstep for the organization without a doubt. But as you note, and especially since as far as we know, no money is missing, it is the sort of thing that most businesses have worries about... and it happens all the time of course that people are hired whose history is not what one might hope. For us, it ends up a major media story anyway. This just shows that going forward we have to be absurdly vigilant about such things.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:43, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

What is most annoying from a community point of view is that they don't understand the distinction between what happens on foundation level and Misplaced Pages. For the press to bad mouth Misplaced Pages because of a foundation issue is absurd beyond words. Sorry for posting this here but this has been annoying me ever since this story came out. EconomicsGuy (talk) 16:20, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sincerely curious, why do you think it's "absurd beyond words" to relate the two topics, especially given there's a fundraiser going on now? While happily there's no evidence of any money having been stolen, I would think it very obvious for potential donors to Misplaced Pages to be concerned over the topic of mismanagement at the foundation level. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 21:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Because that is a foundation issue. It has no influence on the quality of Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is run and maintained by the community who works damn hard in their spare time to keep the site running smoothly. Whenever something like this happens it gets treated as if this was a Misplaced Pages issue which it isn't. It is a foundation issue that has no effect whatsoever on the quality of the encyclopedia. EconomicsGuy (talk) 04:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

But don't you at the very least think that funding for the foundation is vital for the functioning of Misplaced Pages? The servers have to be paid for somehow, and hopefully developers, and even a lawyer or two, which then requires a treasurer, etc. After all, why then is there a big banner asking for donations? Where do you think those donations are going, and why? I'm very puzzled at your mental map here. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 05:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

(Reply to Seth) Do the servers write the encyclopedia? No, the community does. I realize that those with an axe to grind are very eager to use this as yet another excuse to bad mouth the hard work by thousands of people who devote their spare time to running the encyclopedia. Some of us are here to write the damn encyclopedia and frankly couldn't care any less about missteps at foundation level. I donate 30$ every year and I get more than I could ever have hoped for in return. If that is a problem for people such as yourself then frankly I couldn't care any less and neither could 99% of the community. EconomicsGuy (talk) 05:19, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

But surely you'd grant at minimum that the "community" could not do its work without the infrastructure of the foundation? There's another issue having to do with the hype around Misplaced Pages, and you can see that reflected in the coverage. It may not be the most nuance of portrayals, but connecting Misplaced Pages's focus on information, with the Foundation's lack of information here, does seem to me to make a valid point, if only of the not-practicing-what-you-preach variety. Note there's a difference between disagreeeing with the validity of the point, and not seeing any basis whatsoever for it. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 06:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Your argumentation is logically incoherent. None of what the foundation provides to make Misplaced Pages exist affects the quality of the content here nor does it affect how Misplaced Pages is run. To put it another way... with or without the foundation Misplaced Pages with the same community would be the same. We would simply be donating to someone else in return for the servers and occasional legal backup. Sure, we can't operate without the servers but the foundation merely provides those servers, it doesn't run Misplaced Pages. We do, and you need to realize that we could easily make this site a whole lot less transparent if we wanted to. We don't because transparency and everyones right to voice their opinion, including you, is part of what makes this community work despite some people's efforts to exploit that. No missteps at foundation level would ever change any of that - I think you overestimate just how much influence the foundation and even Jimbo has on how this site is run. EconomicsGuy (talk) 06:58, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, whoever the "someone else" is who handles the million bucks, if there was someone with an extensive criminal record near it, isn't it obvious cause for concern about management? It may not change your own willingess to donate, but surely it's a reasonable concern that it could have an overall effect. Actually, the real stuff doesn't seem to be very transparent at all. And remember, there's always the block button hanging over my opinion. Let me tell you, given some of the flaming I've gotten from the "spirtual leader", I sure don't think in terms of a right to express my opinion (more like being onsufferance as long as I don't annoy the powers-that-be too much, which is not the same thing). I don't believe this exchange is very risky, I really am interested in your thinking, and it's a rather mild topic overall. But I sure wouldn't count it as any great triumph of openness. Anyway, I think people underestimate the influence of money. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:35, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

You have some media knowledge Seth, can you give us an overview of the number of US non-profit entities who have hired people of questionable background? The number of those incidents which have been widely reported? The number where a founder such as Mr. Wales has publicly pledged to make up any missing funds, which missing funds have not yet been found to exist? Perhaps you could share your perspective on how often these things happen - just this once, or sadly, all too often? How many of these organizations were seriously impaired, and how many were able to keep delivering on their mission regardless of the personnel issues? Do you really think that one person can derail an army? Franamax (talk) 05:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Cheap irony is a great story. In this case, it's not just shady background, but "Encyclopedia organization didn't get information about its own COO". I think people should admit, objectively, that's a grabber. Misplaced Pages advocates often try to have it both ways - when the topic is positive, it's a revolutionary force for knowledge, when the topic is negative, well, it's just a tiny nonprofit that really shouldn't be held to any professional standards at all. Yes, of course, that's a great rhetorical tactic when it works. But let's put it this way - outsiders are not as inclined to be as forgiving of that shell-game as insiders. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 06:37, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to strike my last rhetorical flourish, since irony was not what I intended (maybe a cheap laugh though, for which I apologize.) But I'll let the rest of the questions stand - I'm not saying anything about "tiny nonprofit", I really was trying to ask you where this stands in the grand scheme of things, how significant is this grabber? In financial terms (currently equal to zero) and organizational terms (improper influence uncovered currently equal to zero), how significant is this event?

And to restate my last sentence separately, as EG says above much better, Misplaced Pages is not the Foundation, it is the contributors, it is not the red and green lights on the servers, it is the people making the lights flash. That doesn't minimize wrongdoing at the Foundation level, it just shows the scale of the right-doing. That should stand apart from the other questions I asked. Franamax (talk) 07:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, just my opinion, I think this is presently an embarrassment, and a set-back to getting big-ticket donations (which has been a problem all along), but it's not going to bring down Misplaced Pages. The results of the financial audit are going to be more significant overall in regard to future funding. In terms of image, I think this is going to be one of things that sticks in the public mind, maybe not for pure significance, but because of that cheap irony. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 08:09, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

• <outdent>Look, Seth, I'll try to make this compact. Most companies large and small have problems like this-- ask any personnel director. They don't actually impact the workings of how to make an encyclopedia. I wasn't being tongue in cheek about saying I didn't care about somebody's run-in's with the law, across the country and far away. Not my problem. What I did care about as an editor HERE, is hypocrisy. So long as things are handled above-board, same rules for all, that's fine. But Misplaced Pages has a policy about bios of living semi-notable people (people you'd never find in a paper encyclopedia), which is screwed up. To wit, there is endless fighting over semi-notables who WANT to have bios (and there are edit-wars about deleting), while at the same time, people who do NOT want to have bios, are forced to watch them kept up, while being edited by other people, on the basis of (sometimes shoddy) journalistic reporting. This is not in keeping with the golden rule, needless to say. And yet those rules are not the same for WMF people. Some of them have been caught altering their own bios in a way that would get them banned if they didn't pull rank. What were they thinking? WMF people who no longer want bios see them shrink, and finally begin to flicker in and out of existence (see Angela Beesley). And Carolyn Duran's bio used to be up, but has now disappeared as effectively as purged unpersons in old Soviet photos. What--is she now less notable than she was 2 weeks ago? All of this is as screwy as the Carioca:

Say, have you seen a Carioca?

It's not a foxtrot or a polka

It has a little bit of new rhythm, a blue rhythm that sighs

It has a meter that is…. tricky

A bit of wicked wacky-wicky

But when you dance it with a new love, there's a true love in her eye

And a bit of wicked wacky wiky this is, too. SBHarris 08:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source

I'd be glad to hear your opinion on the current state of Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source, proposed as a replacement for Misplaced Pages:No original research#Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources (WP:NOR's PSTS section).

Related talk (which I took at heart for improvements) at:

• Misplaced Pages talk:No original research#WP:WITS
• Misplaced Pages talk:Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

EffK charge in progress

legal threat by banned user removed part 2

awards

1bookfan has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

You deserve these awards! 1bookfan 00:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

GAG++ :-P --Fandyllic (talk) 12:26 AM PST 23 Dec 2007

Also,

Please sign my autograph page. 1bookfan 00:17, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Smile!

RoryReloaded (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

You deserve this for creating this place!--RoryReloaded (talk) 00:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Italian lessons

If you don't know how to speak Italian, come to my talk page! I can provide you with basic to expert Italian (probably). Feel free to come for lessons whenever you feel like it! RoryReloaded (talk) 06:55, 23 December 2007 (UTC) Wasn't expecting that... RoryReloaded (talk) 06:56, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

I've made your smiley smaller. A 90 kilobyte image was a tad too big, I think. --Dapeteばか 10:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages surrendering users' info without a fight

I wonder what your opinion is about the following story:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/12/video_prof03.html

Apparently, Misplaced Pages has surrendered without argument the info about some registered Misplaced Pages user(s) in response to a subpoena from the Video Professor. Other websites being sued have successfuly fought back on the free speech and the first amendments grounds, and even Comcast is demonstrating some backbone on the privacy protection grounds. But apparently not Misplaced Pages.... Regards, Nsk92 (talk) 13:52, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

The story is not well reported. It is false to say that we did not put up a fight. And we were successful in pushing the company to seek identifying data not from us but from the cable broadband provider, which is protected under the Cable Act from complying with a mere subpoena.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)