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Ukraine Unassessed

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Soviet Union Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Soviet Union, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR) on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Soviet UnionWikipedia:WikiProject Soviet UnionTemplate:WikiProject Soviet UnionSoviet Union ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

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Sad sight

It is a sad sight to see this article being an attempt of Misplaced Pages editors to engage into this political campaigning on the bones of the victims of the famine. It is one thing when this is done by politicians who would exploit anything they can for the political benefit tripling and quadrupling number of victims or using 1921 pictures to illustrate 1933 events. It is expected and it will always happen. It is quite another thing when this campaigning perpetrates into the encyclopedia.

Starting from the very first sentence, this text is unacceptable. "Denial" is a claim that the famine did not happen. This opinion is such a fringe POV that the debate is out of the picture. Tottle is the only one to claim this.

However, disagreement on whether the term Genocide applies is a legitimate debate. Even the proposed law in Ukraine would not apply to the latter issue as it would prohibit to deny the famine itself, not its legal implications. There are plenty of respected scholars who don't see Genocide in the famine and Horlo's attempt to label them as denialists, also violates WP:BLP.

The article is a soapbox and should be deleted. I would welcome serious contributors to help in covering this topic on wikipedia but that kind of soapboxing is totally out of question, particularly disgusting is to see these games being played on the memories of the victims. Shame! --Irpen 16:38, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Not all of this is political campaigning. Denial did exist in Soviet Union, Duranty and Tottle. Those events should to be mentioned here or in the Holodomor article. The Holodomor denial bill could be mentioned also. The more modern stuff isn't really denial. Do you want this information moved to the Holodomor article? Ostap 19:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I want this cleaned from nonsense first. Not seeing the famine as Genocide is not denial of the famine. Depending on how much is left after this, we can decide whether a separate article is warranted. --Irpen 19:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree. The title itself is an attempt to mimic the Holocaust denial, which is troubling. There is no basis for that. All of that can be mentioned at the Holodomor article, it doesn't warrant a separate article. If there is a vote, I support redirect to the main article. --Hillock65 (talk) 23:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Constructive help is most welcome

It is sad to see that some editors cannot accept differing opinions.

Please point out: A) which points are disputed B) which points are original research.

If you cannot, the tags will be removed. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Statements such as "campaigning on the bones of famine victims" are repulsive enough that editors making them should be summarily drummed out of Misplaced Pages.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 19:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I just called a spade a spade, Horlo. --Irpen 19:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Lets keep the "campaigning on the bones of famine victims" for the article. Sounds like something Duranty did. Ostap 19:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Duranty has been debunked and had the prestigious prize revoked. Do we really need a separate article to expose Tottle and Duranty? Are they worth it? --Irpen 19:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily. But has his prize been revoked? I didn't think so. Ostap 19:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think I read that in the news. -Irpen 19:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Can I remove the "wikify" tag yet? Ostap 19:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. --Irpen 19:29, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Irpen, claiming that Holodomor denial does not exist is the same as claiming that Holocaust denial does not exist. Both statements are equally repugnant.

Once again, things you think are not what they are. (I'm referring to your idea that "Kiev" is more popular in English than "Kyiv", simply because some media uses it). Duranty's prize was not revoked. There were enough people claiming that the Holodomor never took place to get in the way of Duranty's suspension.

Now, Irpen, once again I say - if you have something constructive to add to the article, please do. Disputed tags are not constructive. If you cannot show what specifically is original research or what is disputed, I will simply be BOLD and remove them.

Thanks, 67.71.177.55 (talk) 20:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The term does exist outside Misplaced Pages and thus deserves an article

Holodomor denial gives several hundred hits including news sources such as BBC. If anybody wants to expand his knowledge about the subject he should have an opportunity to do so on Misplaced Pages with the proper article.--Molobo (talk) 23:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Motion to remove tags

Is there any serious argument against removing the "disputed" and "neutrality" tags? Thanks, Horlo (talk) 23:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There is argument over keeping the article, and maybe actually re-writting this lump of information into an article for a start. Usually the size of the article drops noticibly and then we can consider on weather the amount of keeping there is worth a separate page in wikipedia. --Kuban Cossack 23:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Kuban Cossack, your constructive input is more than welcome. Please explain how information can be in a "lump", and what would separate that from an official Misplaced Pages "article". Also, how would re-writing (this is not an article about legalities, therefore there is no "writ") cause the size of an article to decrease? (How would you "drop" it?) Third, the weather here is great - a White Christmas - but that doesn't mean that the information presented here is disputable, or original research. Please see the extensive reference list at the bottom. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 23:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Well from what I had to sample, and viewing how the edit history of the article went, we had complete paragraphs removed. I only touched the opening and the USSR part, and it was knee-deep in nonsense such as Kravchuk's nightmares. Now as ... interesting as that might be why do we need that in wikipedia at all? Just look at the section that was prior to my edit, and all that was left of it after I made the edit. True the volume of removed text was compensated by other additions, such as the 1937 census. Now that's one small section, I have not even read the rest of the article, but if it is just like the rest... This article needs a lot of work! --Kuban Cossack 00:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I suggest this stuff merged into Holodomor article ASAP as this is becoming a new battle ground, where some people have come to re-write history. Just look at the intro, which claims that Holodomor was the result of a failed agricultural reform. This is beyond comment and needs to stop. There is no need to tag or untag anything, just redirect this into Holodomor article. At least let's limit edit wars to just one article. --Hillock65 (talk) 00:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Where do you see a battleground? There is universal consensus that the famine was caused by the collectivisation of the UkSSR, now weather its ricochet that led to the millions of death was intentional or genocidal is still one question which is disputed. I just re-wrote it to follow the status quo on main Holodomor article, which I trust is NPOV. --Kuban Cossack 00:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Kuban Cossack, without getting too personal about this, it seems that you do not have an idea about the meaning of the term "genocide". Here, you claim that the forced starvation of a nation by a foreign government is an agricultural mistake, yet on your own user page you proudly proclaim that you went to defend the Russian population against a "genocidal" attack in Chechnya.

There is consensus about the Holodomor, and that is that it was a deliberate act by the Stalinist regime.

Perhaps this topic is too personal to you, and you might benefit from a break. Were you also so vocal in arguing against a "holocaust denial" article being created?

I still think that such discussion highlights that the issue of Holodomor Denial is necessary, as even a group of editors here think that it never really happened.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 00:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you taking it personal? Lets avoid conflict triggers such as "foreign" or "deliberate". Neither of those are appropriate, and as the Holodomor article states, there is no direct proof that the famine was "deliberate against Ukrainians". I am not questioning it being a famine, are you aware of the "black boards" used in the Don, Kuban and Terek? There was similar kind in the Kazakhstan and in Kurgan Oblast Cannibilism was noted. So there is no question that the Soviet policy on high grain quota, and then "punishment" for not meeting the quota was the result. Now just how much role did Stalin or any other member of the Soviet Government played is purely detail. Moreover its not in the scope of the article.--Kuban Cossack 01:14, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is about denying that the famine took place. However, some people claim that it did not. It did. Therefore, it is not original research, nor disputed. Therefore, the tags should be removed. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 01:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The tags were only put there to specifically antagonise the editors and to discredit the article. All the facts given pertaining to the article have been sourced and disputed claims stated. The article is too large (and growing) to condense it into the Holodomor article. The study of Holodomor denial, its workings and reasons, has been the subject of a number of seminars and conferences. The tags should be removed. Bandurist (talk) 02:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Kharkiv-> Kiev_Kiev-2007-12-26T00:27:00.000Z">

Here is a discussion thread highlighting the events, it includes a very intersting minute, I know forums are not refrences, but how can we use the sources that the users brought there here? .--Kuban Cossack 00:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)_Kiev"> _Kiev">

In 1987 I spent a few weeks living with Leonid Haydamaka in Amherst, New Hampshire. Haydamaka was a professor of domra and bandura at the Kharkov Music and drama Institute in the 20-30's He was also the conductor of the first orchestra of Ukrainian Folk instruments. I video taped him and took down 18 hours of interviews. What was interesting was that his wife was the legal secretary to Mykola Skrypnyk. She was one of 4 students who had completed studies at the Kharkiv University in Ukrainian Philology and as a result was in high demand during the period of Ukrainization in order to make and correct documents into literary Ukrainian. When the government offices moved from Kharkiv to Kyiv in the first half of 1934 she was supposed to move but declined because her husband's jobs and the fact that he directed 2 unique orchestras of Ukrainian folk instruments.

She later went to visit her co-workers who had moved to Kyiv and discovered their apartments sealed and the windows pasted with newspapers. They were gone. She also described in depth the haphazard manner in which documents were sent from Kharkiv to Kyiv and the fact that often they did not find the right address or were lost.

The manuscript of the book on Haydamaka has not been published yet (it is slated for 2010) so I guess this accounts for own research. Bandurist (talk) 17:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)_Kiev"> _Kiev">

Достеменно невідомі також ті фактори, які спричинили майже повну відсутність у Галузевому державному архіві СБ України наказів та розпоряджень ДПУ УСРР 1922–1933 рр. Можливо, тут далися взнаки ті самі обставини, що й у випадку з документами союзного Центру. Не виключено, що вони були втрачені під час Другої світової війни, коли архівні документи вивозилися з Києва до Казахстану. Могли бути на те й інші причини, документальних підтверджень яким немає. From the archives of the Ukrainian secret Service p.22 Bandurist (talk) 16:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)_Kiev"> _Kiev">

redirect and merge

I think the relevant information about denial of the famine itself, such as Soviet policy Duranty, and Tottle, should be added to the Holodomor article. Then have this be a redirect, perhaps to a denial section of the main Holodomor article. However, right now the tag says to merge with the Holodomor#Was the Holodomor genocide? section. I would not support this, as this article and topic has nothing to do with the use of the word genocide. Does anyone else agree? Ostap 01:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Ostape, I still think that this issue is important enough to keep it as a separate article. In twenty four hours this article has stirred up such an amount of discussion. There are apparently those who still try to write it off as an "agricultural Oops".

Right now, the government of Ukraine is making Holodomor denial illegal. Do you know the latest on that?

There is a rather extensive (correctly so) article about Holocaust denial. I think that the Holodomor was at least as bad as the Holocaust.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 01:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess the use of word denial seems to be the core of the problem, as it subliminally attempts to pass a judgement whether it is right or wrong to deny Holodomor and in a way mimics the Holocaust denial. I think this is the wrong path to follow and it is wrong to pass judgement on people who deny Holodomor just as it is wrong to pass a judgement on people who do not believe that Jesus ever existed. The fact that the current government of Ukraine chose to move toward legal definition of Holodomor denial makes it even more troublesome. There have been and still are people, who deny that it ever existed - whatever they believe was the cause of this tragedy is beyond the point right now. In fact, there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of those who question this in Ukraine alone. While I disagree with that view, putting emphasis on denial is wrong. There are millions of people who deny that God ever existed, yet there is no God denial article. Neither should there be one about Holodomor denial. All this information can and should be mentioned in the Holodomor article. Creating an article about an issue as charged as this one will only flair up emotions and will lead to another edit war, which is already starting. Move info from this article to Holodomor and redirect this article there. --Hillock65 (talk) 02:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Hillock65, I think you hit the nail right on the head. There are many people who still deny the existence of the Holodomor, and many people are still uncomfortable talking about it. That's exactly what this article is about - not what caused the famine, nor the consequences. However, the Holodomor did happen, and there were (and still are) active attempts to prove that it did not. I think the scope of those actions - official and unofficial - warrants a separate article.

It is also true that this is a very emotionally charged issue, and it is sad that some editors cannot focus on just writing a good encyclopedia article, but that is something Misplaced Pages will probably never get away from.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

destruction of archives

На жаль, наявні в архівах України взагалі і у відомчому архіві Служби безпеки України зокрема нормативно�розпорядчі документи Об’єдна� ного державного політичного управління СРСР (рос.: Объеди� ненное государственное политическое управление, ОГПУ) є скоріш винятком, аніж правилом. Центральні органи радян� ських спецслужб за властивими їм законами діловодства намагалися не залишати у республіканських підрозділах документів щодо своєї спрямовуючої діяльності. За канонами секретності чимало документів підлягало поверненню відправ� никам або систематично знищувалось, оскільки існували терміни та суворий порядок обліку й зберігання конкретного виду документів. From a publication by the Ukrainian Secret Service p. 22 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bandurist (talk • contribs) 16:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

annoying tags

Now that this article has developed and changed with the help of many editors, can whoever added the tags say exactly what is wrong so that the other editors can work to correct the article and they can remove the tags? Ostap 05:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Tags removed

The tags were removed - no reasons were given for keeping them.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Motion to remove merge tag

I think that this tag should be removed for two reasons: first, it has grown too large, with the contribution of too many editors, to become part of another article.

Second, I think that it is important enough to keep as a separate article.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I will be bold and remove it because merging to the "was it genocide?" section is not even the correct subject. Ostap 08:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Support. It appears the concept is distinctive enough, and large enough, to deserve a subarticle.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:55, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

New sections

I feel that the article would benefit from a seperate section analysing the reasons for Holodomor denial and also possibly a section on Holodomor revisionism. Thoughts? Bandurist (talk) 16:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it also the denial that it was a genocide

Isn't Holodomor denial also a term for denying that it was a genocide ?--Molobo (talk) 18:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a point which confuses some editors. Personally, I think that the Holodomor was genocide. However, this article is not about that. Soviet - and other - authorities as well as many Soviet-friendly media & reporters tried to hide the fact that millions of people were slowly starving to death. That's the focus of this article. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 06:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the response to this question is that since "scholars" still dispute whether the Holodomor was genocide or not, the term denial is biased towards the Holodomor-genocide camp since the term assumes for a given that it was genocide, and those who deny it must therefore deny the facts. But since "scholars" are still not sure, and it is not a settled question (the way gravity theory is) then it is not technically a denial since what is being denied has not been established to exist in the first place.

This is why the lead seems to make the scope of the entry clear from the get-go: the denial is about the existence of famine, period (which is an established/settled fact). Regards, --Riurik 06:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It would also be a BLP issue labeling a wide range of scholars from Conquest to Wheatcroft and Tauger as "denilaists". --Irpen

Lead

Saying that "Holodomor denial is denying holodomor" is a tautology. The term is self-explanatory and does not have to be defined unless someone wants to expand the scope and label those who disagree with this being a genocide denialists as well. The latter is questionable.

I also removed the 7 mln pushed by Horlo as is an unquestionable fact. Not a single modern scholarly source published since opening of archival data, including the research by Ukrainian historians and demographers, gives a number higher than 3.5 million. This is already covered elsewhere and does not need to be forked here.

The lead needs to clearly address the commonality (lack of) of the view that the famine is a fantasy. It is a single most important point that debunks the denialists like Tottle outright that this view does not have any standing. Clearly should be stated prominently.

Finally, the see also section is bad style per MoS and should be avoided in developed articles. Important issues should be linked from the main body and the similar topics are grouped with this one independently. This is why we have categories. --Irpen 07:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with this latter point: It's something very common to have, see e.g. Soviet Union (a former GA), with 18 items in the See also list. I can give dozens of other examples, upon request. I find it a useful feature, if used sparingly, and judiciously. Turgidson (talk) 07:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello,

Irpen, you seem to be unclear about this article. Let me explain it to you.

Before we do that, however, please refrain from words like "pushed". They don't help anybody. I would also like to say that I am very impressed by the fact that you have read every single modern scholarly source published since the opening of archival data, including the research by Ukrainian historians and demographers.

This article is about Holodomor denial. There are some people who think that there was never a famine in Ukraine in the years 1932-1933. That's what this article addresses - there have been people who thought that in 1932, and people who think that today.

This is not an article claiming that Holodomor deniers are denying that the Holodomor was not genocide. Please remove that when you see it in the article.

Also, please avoid condescending language such as "should be avoided" and exclusionary language such as "that is why we have". That does not help anybody.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying I have "read every single modern scholarly source published since the opening of archival data". I am saying that I've read several important ones and none give 7 million. Please quote any scholarly sources to the contrary. As for the existence of "people who deny it to this day" the whole point is that those are marginal. Have you seen any serious source denying the famine? --Irpen 07:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, Irpen, you said "Not a single modern scholarly source published since opening of archival data, including the research by Ukrainian historians and demographers, gives a number higher than 3.5 million." How would you know that, if you had not read them?

As to the whole point that people deny this even today, the point is that they are the remnants of a deliberate policy by the Soviet Union to pretend the Holodomor never took place. That is the whole point of the article.

Please feel free to read through the article and find out just what happened.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

As for "how do I know", I know that WW2 was fought with Allied forces and Axis Powers even if I have not read all books published on the topic. Anyway, you can easily prove if I am wrong by producing the scholarly source to the contrary. I cited my sources elsewhere. Yes, there are people who deny famine. But this is now clearly an out-of-mainstream view not supported by any serious scholars. Again, I have not read them all but you can easily prove me wrong by showing any ref to the contrary. --Irpen 07:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Irpen, please don't try to confuse the issue more than it already is. This article is about Holodomor denial. I can teach you anything you like about world war 2 later.

There is an extensive reference list at the bottom of the article. Please feel free to follow any links there, and ask if there is anything unclear. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 07:40, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I repeat the question: "please produce a scholarly source published since the opening of the archives that would claim 7 million". --Irpen 07:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

He's right. What's out there, like Kulchitsky (in Den articles), Valinn (2002) and others from peer-reviewed journals all hover around the 3.5m figure. Maybe it's because they have to be conservative about making claims, since they have to back these up with evidence. It's possible that in time the number will shift, but for now the only place one finds the 7m-10m figures are in newspapers, and we know from Duranty's example how accurate those can be.--Riurik 07:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I looked at the writers that you mentioned. Interestingly, Kulchitsky wrote in a newspaper, and Valinn wrote in France. They may be peer-reviewed, but if you want to use newspaper and journals as evidence, then I can provide many which provide the number 7-10 million.

Again, please don't let that confuse the issue. I removed the number from the lead, and will remove the tag, also.

Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Then you should have noticed that Kulchytsky published not only in newspapers, but also in peer-reviewed journals. Where one publishes needs to be complemented with who one is; arguably, Kulchytsky's training and specialization places him above the "experts" at the Ukrainian Weekly, the New York Times, or BBC.

What does writing in France have to do with verifiability criteria as specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability? The Valline (2002) article is from Population Studies - a journal published by London School of Economics, UK.

My take on the issue is that we should be focusing against fighting attacks from Stalin's apologists who are trying to excuse the famine on anything, but the government. The sources out there back this position, and it is the responsibility of every editor who cares about this issue that the Holodomor entry is well sourced, balanced, and monitored against these trolls.--Riurik 02:58, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Hello, before this gets too far, I think that we are getting away from the focus of this article. I think that this should focus on everything and everybody who claimed or claims that there was no Holodomor.

People died. Horribly. yet some claim that they did not.

The reason I removed the tags is that everything in the article is sourced, quoted, and balanced. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It was a criminal offense to mention the famine in any way

Probably needs to be changed. There was no direct article in the criminal code. Probably another article, like "anti-Soviet propaganda" was justified to suppress any mention of the famine. What does book say. Can we get a quote? --Irpen 07:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Irpen again I am impressed by your knowledge. Now, you know everything about the Soviet Criminal Code throughout history. However, please refer to the section "destruction of archives" above to see why you may not see things in print anymore. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 15:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

One of them is obviously Article 58 (RSFSR Penal Code). There were many other articles.Biophys (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:59, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Modern criminalizing

Can we get a ref that it is already a criminal offense in Ukraine. Last time I checked, it was still a proposal. TIA, --Irpen 07:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think it has come into law yet. The draft was submitted to the parliament a couple of months ago, but I doubt even Tymoshenko's Rada is that fast. And that is one big fine.

By the way everyone, congratulations for making Top20 on WikiRage.--Riurik 07:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Feels good to be part of something big, no? Horlo (talk) 07:34, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Above was partially sarcasm, not an accolade. I've yet to make one edit to the actual entry.--Riurik 07:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I was also being sarcastic. I have made a few edits. Thanks, Horlo (talk) 08:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of which, how about proposing the article for DYK, before it's too late? Since Horlo started it (on Christmas Day), maybe he wants to do the nomination? Turgidson (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

This excellent article was already proposed for DYK on the 25th. Good work guys! Martintg (talk) 19:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the info—I had no idea. Have a Gueuze! Turgidson (talk) 22:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please note that currently the dyk suggestion is factually incorrect; to my knowledge, the act has not passed yet. Also, it needs to be referenced whatever the new suggestion turns out to be.--Riurik 03:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Alternative dyk

• ...that Walter Duranty, a New York Times journalist, helped Stalin's Soviet Union deny the existence of the artificial famine during the 1930s?

The above is a suggestion that can be adjusted, and has to be referenced in the article. Comments or alternative versions below.--Riurik 03:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Why would we want to single out this person? PS. I am ok with this hook. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 13:04, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

A DYK on this specific topic should not single out one lying reporter such as Duranty. Focusing on the implications of the inaccuracies and denial published by the New York Times is more relevant.

Something like:

The publication in prominent Western newspapers such as the "New York Times" and "The Nation" of inaccurate reports based on Soviet Propaganda denying the terror famine known as the Holodomor in Ukraine in 1932-33 retarded the collection and dispatch of food relief and aid to the starving millions there, which ultimately contributed to the demographic losses.

It may be a bit strong, but it leaves a message that such reports need to be accurate. I think it needs to be condenced however. Bandurist (talk) 16:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the hook has to be "representative" of the entire article. It's supposed to hook a reader to read the entry, hence the choice, but I am by no means glued to it. Bandurist's hook can work, but it is double the size. The hook needs to be under 200characters with spaces included, and the facts mentioned in it need to be referenced. Other alternatives?--Riurik 19:54, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

How about: DYK Reports that denied the existence of an famine retarded relief efforts and contributed to the death of millions of people from starvation in the the "bread-basket" of Europe. Bandurist (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It's better, but I don't know how to phrase it for the Did you know "that reports that denied the existence"? Plus which reports/reporters?

• ...that the 1932-33 famine in Ukraine was denied by the Soviet Union until 1980s?--Riurik 00:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Bandurist, we are having an unnecessary discussion. There are alternatives available already under the Template_talk:Did_you_know#Articles_created.2Fexpanded_on_December_25.--Riurik 00:46, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I personally liked better the emphasis on the recent laws in Ukraine (either passed, or proposed), since I think it's easier to grab people's attention with something in the news, but I could be wrong. Focussing too much on Duranty could be a bit inappropriate, since after all, this is not an article about him (even though he had a considerable role in shaping Western opinion and reaction to the catastrophe, at least initially). So it's a balancing act -- this latest idea of Bandurist sounds promising. I like especially the mention of "bread-basket" of Europe: good hook -- but this angle should then be developed more in the article, too. (Though, incidentally, I think the Wallachian Plain used to compete for the title, and in fact was the bread-basket of Europe in the 1930s.) But "retarded" doesn't sound too good here. Maybe something like: "... reports denying the existence of a terrible famine in Ukraine, the "bread-basket of Europe", delayed relief efforts, and contributed to the death of millions from starvation?" Turgidson (talk) 00:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with either one. The Duranty hook was just a starter; let's scrap that, and go with the "bread-basket" version or the "proposed law" hook.--Riurik 04:50, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I definitely think we should not be using this article for a DYK, see my comments below. Gatoclass (talk) 04:56, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Duranty section

I have placed a POV notice on the Duranty section. It contains numerous unsourced POV statements, such as that "Duranty acted more like a spokesman for the Soviet government than an independent reporter for a Western newspaper." It misrepresents an (alleged) statement by Duranty that the population of Ukraine/North Caucasus had decreased by seven million by claiming he said that seven million had died from the famine. I also have a problem with journalists being described as "Holodomor deniers". This strikes me as a neologism with an obvious and odious comparison to "Holocaust denier". So the whole section has substantial POV problems in my view. Gatoclass (talk) 04:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

In fact when I think about it, the name of the article itself "Holodomor denial" is POV.

The article also has numerous unsourced or POV statements, so I'm moving the POV template to the top of the article. Gatoclass (talk) 05:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying Walter Duranty was not a Soviet propagandist? I refer you to Walter Duranty#Criticisms for some references to that effect, eg:

The New York Times hired a professor of Russian history to review Duranty's work. That professor, Mark Von Hagen of Columbia University, concluded Mr. Duranty's reports to be unbalanced and uncritical, and they far too often gave voice to Stalinist propaganda. He also said in comments to the press, "For the sake of The New York Times' honor, they should take the prize away". N.Y. Times urged to rescind 1932 Pulitzer

Also note that, in a August 24, 1933 article in NYT, Duranty claimed "any report of a famine is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda", but admitted privately to William Strang (in the British Embassy in Moscow on September 26, 1933) that "it is quite possible that as many as ten million people may have died directly or indirectly from lack of food in the Soviet Union during the past year." At any rate, before jumping to the defense of Walter Duranty, and his role in attempting to cover up (and deny) the Holodomor, I urge you to better familiarize yourself with what happened. Turgidson (talk) 05:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That Duranty was a Soviet propagandist is a sourced statement, and certainly not POV. Ostap 05:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Sourced to whom? There is a world of difference between making absolutist statements about somebody, and attributing them to an reliable source. What reliable source has denounced Duranty, specifically, as a "Holodomor denier"? Since the coining of the term itself appears to be very recent (and it seems, by a political faction in Ukraine itself), retrospectively applying the term to journalists from an earlier era is problematic to say the least. If the term is to be applied to figures like Duranty at all, then it must be properly attributed to a reliable source and not made as an absolutist statement in the article. Gatoclass (talk) 05:55, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

In this case, his own record speaks for itself: just read the articles he wrote for the NYT, in which he denied there was a famine in Ukraine at the time. In other words, Duranty (and his own publications in the NYT) provide a reliable source. Or am I missing on Logic 101? Turgidson (talk) 05:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

But, just in case, here's yet another source that confirms all this: "Ukraine: Famine Anniversary Marked Amid Denials":

Ivan Lozovy, a Ukrainian-based political analyst, organized a march in central Kyiv on November 21 to call for Duranty's Pulitzer to be revoked. The Pulitzer committee has ruled it will not revoke the prize, arguing it was awarded for pieces not directly related to the famine. Lozovy and others say Duranty, who openly admired Stalin, helped cover up and perhaps deepen the effects of the Great Famine by failing to report on it. Lozovy says he hopes his campaign will highlight the role that Westerners like Duranty played in allowing the famine to continue unchecked.

I'd say, the case is open-and-shut on Duranty. To the extent that the "NPOV" tag is based on the contention that he was not a Holodomor denier, I think it needs to go — there is absolutely no reason for it, except for WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is no reason to have such a tag. Turgidson (talk) 06:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Again, what "you'd say" is irrelevant. It's what reliable sources have to say. The fact that the Pulitzer Prize committee has not revoked his Pulitzer is evidence in itself that this is not simply "an open-and-shut" case. Gatoclass (talk) 06:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Conquest and Taylor, whose works are both published by Oxford University Press, both are scholarly sources for him being a denier and propagandist (and yes, the phrase "denying the famine" is used). And the above review of his work says that he "too often gave voice to Stalinist propaganda" ). Ostap 06:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to be on the safe side, though, I agree that we should have more refs on Duranty in that section. If nothing else, because on the article on him, the inline refs are not well done, and some of the links there are actually dead links (I just checked). We should be able to do better in this section here, and then go to the article on Duranty and fix the mess with references there, too, if anyone has the willpower to do it. (I may do it, but not right now, I'm running out of steam with this and some related articles, I need a break...) Turgidson (talk) 06:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are missing on "Logic 101", in all sorts of ways. "Holodomor denier" appears to be a political epithet recently coined by a particular Ukrainian political party. It invites obvious and odious comparison with "Holocaust denier". So it's anything but a neutral term.

Furthermore, the phrase has been termed to apply to Ukrainians denying the holodomor today, when there is an abundance of evidence available for the famine. Applying the phrase retrospectively to journalists reporting 80 years ago is obviously therefore problematic, because it assumes they were in possession of all the same information that is available today and able to see things from a modern perspective.

You say Duranty's own words prove he was a "Holodomor denier" but that is just your opinion. You cannot make an unequivocal statement in an article based on just your opinion. It has to be attributed to reliable source. So if a reliable source has called Duranty a "holodomor denier" you can use that, but the statement must be attributed. If there is no such source, you should not label him as such. At best, the public controversy surrounding Duranty's work should be reproduced here, in an NPOV way, which means not taking sides but just reporting the controversy.

Quite frankly though, I have a problem with Duranty, Fisher et al being referred to at all in this article. The whole article smacks to me of a POV fork, I think at best it should probably confine itself to uses and meaning of the term and leave it at that. Gatoclass (talk) 06:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, OK, it's your problem. As I said, "I don't like it" is not a reason for slapping POV tags. Your interpretation of current Ukrainian politics is not very relevant, or of much interest to me, or to WP. Duranty and other Soviet fellow travellers were recognized at such in the 1930s, no need to wait for the 2000s for that (and, by the way, the Holodomor occurred about 75 years ago, not 80.) And, there is not much controversy left about Duranty, except perhaps on some fringe blogs and such: it is a well-established, documented, and cited fact that he was a Soviet propagandist. Period. You got a problem with that designation? Turgidson (talk) 07:13, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Contemporary Russian diplomats and Holodomor denial

I do not understand the relevance of the above section. Where in this interview Viktor Chernomirdin deny the existence of the Holodomor? Bogdan 06:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a point that needs to be addressed. I don't quite know what to say right now -- I did not add that paragraph, but it sounds relevant, though perhaps not directly. (In the meantime, I added another ref, from the BBC, to be on the safe side with backing up this.) Unless a direct quote can be found saying that Chernomirdin denies the Holodomor occurred, I think the section header should be modified. As Roman Serbyn, professor of history and a Ukrainian expert at the University of Quebec in Montreal, says in that BBC article:

Russia opposes designation as genocide, and "the biggest reason is national pride. But also the political and economic consequences... if you recognise a crime you might have to pay compensation".

So how about following this (sourced) tack, instead, and having as section title: "Russian opposition to designation of Holodomor as genocide", as explain more the reasons for that? Turgidson (talk) 06:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Another major problem

I note that the final paragraph of the article says the Ukrainian parliament's draft bill proposes to make denial of the famine as an act of genocide an illegal act. So what is holodomor denial exactly - denial of the famine, or denial of the famine as "an act of genocide"? We don't even have a clear definition of the term, let alone a source to attribute it to! This article is IMO nothing more than a POV fork based on a political epithet of uncertain origins. Gatoclass (talk) 06:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Unassessed Ukraine articles
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