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Revision as of 14:25, 3 January 2008 editPiotrus (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Event coordinators, Extended confirmed users, File movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers285,769 edits →{{vandal|Namescases}}← Previous edit Revision as of 15:12, 3 January 2008 edit undoDr. Dan (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers8,342 edits →Another Eastern European flamer: Do not drag me into this!Next edit →
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--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 14:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC) --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 14:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
*'''Comment'''. Please do not drag me into your never ending and constant quarrels with other Wikipedians. Please desist from insulting me by calling me a flamer (I'd like an apology, btw). Your opening salvo of calling this a editor a "flamer" is not a very civil way to begin your displeasure with perceived incivility. Anyone is welcome to post on my talk page, and I encourage it, and do not consider it stalking. I read your posts and accusing someone of ] here is really too much. This constant attempt to censor people who do not agree with you is unhealthy and unecessary. Lastly, please try to be fair and at least chide some of your own colleagues who engage in similar actions. That would be a good start. Have a good day. ] (]) 15:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:12, 3 January 2008

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Edit this section for new requests

Dacy69

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
blocked for 7 days by Penwhale

Dacy69 (talk · contribs) has a long history of blocks for edit warring and is back at it after being absent for three months. The first thing he did after coming back was a mass removal of the WPNK tag, with the following edit summary "there is no such thing as Artsakh except armenian name of Azerbaijani region. It is clear attempt to legitimaze illegal entity" This was very disruptive and uncalled for. Not to mention Armenia being in lowercase. VartanM (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Other than those reverts his next edit was a deletion of an entire sourced section:. That's all that he did after a three month break on the day of his return, not very triumphant or constructive. -- Ευπάτωρ 20:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Not to mention the two sentence "justification". VartanM (talk) 20:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, that. 7 days. - Penwhale | 06:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

VartanM
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

I think we can conclude with this thread, a continuation of which seems to be taking place below. El_C 23:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Reverting my edit on the talk page calling it "vandalism" ? I am not sure if this is civil, when I clearly provided a rationale for the removal of the tag . This project Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Karabakh is clearly a divisive nationalist WP:POV push by a group of contributors. The icon map used for this project is a pure provocative fabrication, as Nagorno-Karabakh never had such borders neither as administrative division within Soviet Azerbaijan nor as unrecognized military establishment of Armenia. But what's most disturbing is that some members of this project are trying to rid Misplaced Pages of any historical reference to word Azerbaijan or Azeri, examples , . Thanks. Atabek (talk) 13:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Atabek, there wasnt any state in the place of the modern Azerbaijan called Azerbaijan before 1918. Its a fact. See f.e. the NYTimes archives to finish this long discussion. And lets assume a little more good faith and to not call Karabakh "nationalism". Surely you know the history, you know about historical Artsakh, about the anti-Armenian decision of Stalin according to NKAO, the oppression of Armenians during the soviet period, and that the existance of modern NK Republic is a fact! Andranikpasha (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Come on, guys, please! This isn't helping anyone. Step back a bit before you all get yourselves banned at Armenia-Azerbaijan 3. Deciding to promote Wikiproject:Karabakh at this point in time is a seriously bad idea. Can't you see how much Armenian and Azeri users are trying admins' patience here with the eternal edit-warring over Nagorno-Karabakh? How about a moratorium on NK articles for at least a month. Surely there's plenty to work on elsewhere. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. --Folantin (talk) 18:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Good idea Folantin! Happy New Year!! Andranikpasha (talk) 19:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Removing the project tag because you don't like it, is called vandalism. Happy New Year to all. VartanM (talk) 19:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy New Year everybody. Let's just try and make 2008 calmer in this neck of the woods if we can. --Folantin (talk) 20:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Folantin, and have killed the WikiProject for a month. Everyone, please take a break - or at least fight elsewhere. Happy New Year to everyone. Cheers, Moreschi 21:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that when I do something harmless to the main article, the whole projects gets "killed", but when some other users disrupt the project by mass reverting its a "fight elsewhere". Please redirect the project to its talkpage, I had proposed something and I was waiting for a reply from the rest of the members. VartanM (talk) 00:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Nagorno-Karabakh topic is quite disturbing and annoying already as an article to further make a project out of it. Happy New Year and all the best to all! Atabek (talk) 10:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If even Artsakh is disturbing to you:) its exists! If to start to delete everything that disturbs me here I think will not be a good consensus! Andranikpasha (talk) 13:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Andranikpasha, please, refer to WP:SOAP regarding "its exists!". It's not disturbing to me as a subject, what's disturbing is that Nagorno-Karabakh article and any subject mentioning it is a subject of edit wars since the start of Misplaced Pages. So creation of POV project under this name will not serve well to Misplaced Pages. Atabek (talk) 14:10, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If something exists in real life it cant be a POV! It can have a denial, that's why the editwarrings are going on by the opposers of NKR. Andranikpasha (talk) 14:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Happy New Year everyone. I was late to join this discussion, but I can say that this wikiproject is a very bad idea and will result only in further escalation of tensions between the 2 communities. I see no reason for its existence, it covers the same articles as Wikiprojects Armenia and Azerbaijan, and all the members of NK wikiproject are also members of the Armenia wikiproject. I don't see what this wikiproject can do that cannot be done by Wikiproject Armenia. NK wikiproject is clearly divisive and nothing good will come out of it. Wikiprojects are not intended to divide editors, on the contrary, they should help editors join their efforts to create an encyclopedia. NK wikiproject is not the one that serves this purpose and therefore it should be eliminated. Grandmaster (talk) 14:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Grandmaster. Creation of that Wikiproject will bring to extensive editwarring. By the same token, Azeris can create projects on current Armenian territories which were claimed by Azeris (Zangezur, Geycha, Irevan khanate, etc.) and add tags to every article. Do you think it would do any good? Ehud (talk) 21:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think User:Pocopocopocopoco is quite listening to what some administrators commented on above. He again reinserted the Karabakh Wikiproject tag back into the talk page . Thanks. Atabek (talk) 21:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Macedonia edit wars

Can somebody please have a good look at Ireland101 (talk · contribs) and Tsourkpk (talk · contribs) and apply Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#Discretionary sanctions as seen fit? These guys have been fighting a bit too much for my taste recently. I'd do something myself, but I'm probably a bit too non-uninvolved by the Arbcom's current standards. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

A little more to go on? Which article(s) should we look at? Thatcher 14:24, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Basically every article Ireland101 has been editing lately has been in an edit-warring situation with either Tsourkpk, Megistias (talk · contribs), Kékrōps (talk · contribs) or other Greek users. See Vergina Sun (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Bryges (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Rosetta Stone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Macedonian dynasty (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Macedonians (ethnic group) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Hellenization (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), and so on. It's all over the place. Difficult to say who's picking these fights, whether it's Ireland editing tendentiously everywhere, or the others stalking him (as he evidently feels), or both. Also see the current complaint thread at WP:ANI#Ireland101 and Tsourkpk. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing this out Future Perfect. In almost all of those situation those editors/meat puppets were reverting my edits with no explanation.Ireland101 (talk) 17:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
What would you think about a 1 revert per week per page limit for Ireland101 and Tsourkpk? Thatcher 15:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I've put Ireland101 on revert parole and logged it, holding off for now on other actions (which I believe are needed). Kékrōps (talk · contribs) is also coming up reverting in quite a few of those page histories listed above. Thoughts? Moreschi 17:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand why I was put on revert parole considering that I always include edit summaries and have no history of edit warring. I have only reverted vandalism and thought that was the purpose of the Counter-Vandalism Unit. Ireland101 (talk) 17:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
No, that's not what the CVU is for. Evidently your definition of vandalism is a little off. Moreschi 17:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • In response to Moreshi's request for "thoughts", reverting is not an endorsed editing method anyway, so 1RR is probably the least restrictive sanction we can think of, certainly less so than page or topic bans, and I would think it could be liberally applied, although with either an expiration date or a promise to review (after 3-6 months perhaps). Thatcher 17:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Anyeverybody (AKA User:Anynobody) and Barbara Schwarz
The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.
Upon further developments, Anyeverybody is banned from making any Barbara Schwarz-related edits in any article for 30 days.http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Anyeverybody&oldid=179970442] Thatcher 02:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


I am respectfully asking for enforcement under Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS, specifically Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Article probation.

Anyeverybody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (AKA Anynobody (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) or AN) is violating the intent of the DRV on Barbara Schwarz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (a Scientology-related article) by creating WP:POVFORKs of deleted materials. He added a long bit to Neutral reportage, here, giving clear undue weight to Schwarz. He did the same at Freedom of Information Act (United States), here, in which he put her on a par with J. Edgar Hoover and Ronald Reagan. He apparently recreated the deleted article as a disamb page which was then undone and the page protected. He is engaging in WP:BLP-violating discussion of her mental state on a user talk page (User talk:Tilman#Barbara Schwarz and Scientology).

I am well familiar with AN's tenacity when he takes an interest in a subject as I was once the object of his attention and it took an arb ruling to get him to back off (Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS/Proposed decision#Anynobody prohibited from harassing Justanother). I am respectfully requesting that an administrator please inform AN is no uncertain terms to back off on Schwarz. It is of note that the DRV page itself was blanked. AN should stop with the undue attention to Schwarz. This project has made its decision as regards her and he must abide by it and not try to find ways around it. As far as his POV forks, I have fixed most of the one at Neutral reportage as that one was a no-brainer but I would appreciate if an uninvolved party would take care of the undue weight at Freedom of Information Act (United States). Thank you and Happy New Year. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you're going to have to take this up with the closing admin IronGargoyle and ask him if outsourcing information from Barbara Schwarz to other articles is considered acceptable under the terms of his close of the deletion review. In my opinion, we need clear evidence that Anyeverybody's edits are considered disruptive before restricting him from Schwarz-related material under the terms of remedy 7. Picaroon (t) 15:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Some of the DRV comments suggested that Schwarz could be added as an element to related articles. It seems reasonable to include her at Freedom of Information Act (United States), although the content still must meet BLP and I am concerned about the length of the material. Neutral reportage is more of a stretch and is probably not needed, and the recreation of Barbara Schwarz as a dab page definitely falls outside the scope of the DRV (although the page was first recreated as a redirect by another user). Thinking about this some more. Thatcher 15:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Hello, I see that the point I was going to make has already been pointed out by Thatcher, that the deletion review concluded that there was not enough for an entire article (not all mention of her from Misplaced Pages).
I don't want to get into too much detail about the merits of each article (that's what their talk pages are for) but feel that an overall explanation would be germane here. Regarding the FOIA section, it may seem a bit lengthy but all information comes directly from the cited sources. As to neutral reportage, one of the sources for the FOIA section was sued by her for simply reporting both what she and the government employees said about one and other. If anyone takes a moment to read it, the fact that it doesn't judge her one way or another comes through. More than one secondary source discusses the implications of her claims against the Tribune had the court found in her favor.
Anyone still having access to the old article may notice that there was also much more questionable information featured in it which hasn't been "reincarnated". (Nor would I support such a reincarnation without better sources.)
Also, doesn't changing consensus apply to this article as well? For example if Ms Schwarz was in the news for a new notable reason, surely a prior deletion review would be at least rethought and her article could be recreated. (Unless/until that happens the most I could see using it for is a disambiguation page. Whether one agrees or disagrees that this individual deserves mention in two separate articles, I think we can all agree that if anyone is mentioned in more than one article but doesn't have their own, a disambiguation page is just another "no-brainer".) Anynobody 00:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
If you were going to write an expansion of neutral reportage to illustrate how the doctrine has been applied in practice, there are presumably many fine examples that do not require delving into the personal problems of a possibly disturbed person. This is one of the facets of both BLP and NPOV#Undue weight. Choosing to highlight the specifics of this case over others would be inappropriate. The situation is possibly different at the FOIA article where Mrs. Schwarz is in a more unique position. However, I caution you to respect both the principles as well as the letter of the BLP policy, and note that even the FOIA article, becomes by extension, a Scientology-related article by its mention of the subject, and if your behavior is disruptive you can be banned from it (or even from mention this person) under terms of the article probation. Thatcher 01:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I hadn't planned on expanding beyond what was already there, but in regard to your assertion that other cases must illustrate the doctrine better, I'd be surprised. If you read the SLT article it simply presents both sides without judging either. So essentially she felt that the article ruined her life because people talk about it when they see her and call her crazy. They (the Tribune) didn't report any untrue information and lets face it, people think her story is crazy, and she essentially blamed the Tribune for it. Meaning that if, for some reason the court found for her, papers would be reduced to a policy of "If you can't find anyone to say nice things about people, then don't say anything." Other defamation suits I've heard of, there was at least a question as to whether the paper was defaming a subject.
I understand your warning about consequences for being disruptive, but could you please explain just how adding sourced information to relevant articles about a person is disruptive? (Shouldn't there be some edit warring or heated talk page debate to even begin talking about disruption?) Anynobody 03:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to write a good article about Rape without describing any individual victim or their case, no matter how interesting. Likewise, it is possible to describe the doctrine of neutral reportage without referring to individuals or, if it improves the article to describe a case illustrating the doctrine, it is better to use a case that does not turn on the behavior of an individual. Part of BLP is understanding that just because we can say things about a person that are true (or at least properly sourced) but also hurtful to that person or their family, doesn't mean we should. This person appears to be notable from the angle of her FOIA activities, but I doubt she is a typical or even notable test case on the neutral reportage doctrine. (I noted for example no law review articles that mention her; meaning that she has not been written about as either a notable FOIA filer or as a notable neutral reportage case.) To answer your other question, it could be considered disruption if, for example, you continued to add information about this individual to multiple tangentially related topics and ignore concerns expressed by other editors. So far we are not in that realm. Thatcher 04:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Since this does not appear to require enforcement at this time, the report is closed and the philosophical discussion can continue

elsewhere. Thatcher 04:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Actually I have a question/point about an aspect of possible enforcement. I can totally see where adding information about this subject to articles without sources either at random or in remotely related subjects would be disruptive. That's not what I am doing at all, and it sounds like you think the general tone of the accusation is not far from true. For example please look at User talk:Tilman#Barbara Schwarz and Scientology if you haven't already.
  • I asked if he knew of any German sources discussing her unique situation where religion is telling her to stay away from what could actually help her, is mentioned.
  • He provided what he knew of.
  • I politely advised that while I agree with his assessment of the sources I also didn't think it was enough to source a WP:BLP claim on. Moreover I stated what type of source I thought would do to meet notability regarding her and Scientology.
Essentially I just want to be emphatic that I'm not trying to game the system in any way. (Hell if I was, would it be a good idea to tell Jimbo about it?) Anynobody 06:03, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


Additional response Upon further developments, Anyeverybody is banned from making any Barbara Schwarz-related edits in any article for 30 days.http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Anyeverybody&oldid=179970442] Thatcher 02:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What does that link have to do with this situation? Anynobody 03:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, you said the philosophical discussion can continue elsewhere. Which is what I did, moreover I didn't replace the info exactly as it was before. Anynobody 03:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
You also re-added the material. As I stated on Talk:Neutral reportage, the fact that you choose to highlight this specific case as an illustration of the principle, rather than the cases that actually set precedent, suggests that your priorities are focused on something other than making Neutral reportage a well-written and comprehensive encyclopedia article. It would be like writing a biography of Abraham Lincoln and adding as the most important fact about his law practice the fact that he shared a bed with his law partner. It shows your priorities are elsewhere. Thatcher 07:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Giovanni33

Giovanni33 was placed on revert parole (once per week, per article) here for a year, as was I. On the Jung Chang article he reverted 08:33, 31 December 2007 after a break of 1 week and 10 minutes (the previous revert was made 08:23, 24 December 2007. Such a tiny time difference indicates he is gaming the system. Furthermore I think reverting during the holiday season on Christmas and New Year's Eve is an example of him trying to get a revert advantage by hoping a user such as myself would be too busy to notice what he was doing. If he was acting in good-faith I believe he would have waited until after New Year's and made sure everyone was around - he didn't even leave a message on the talk page asking if people were there or not.

As can be seen on the talk page Giovanni33 frequently reverts, does the minimum to ensure he doesn't get banned by leaving a comment "explaining" his revert and then disappears for a week before he starts this again - his lack of discussion of the matters prior to reversion can be seen by his recent edit history.

He is disrupting the article by refusing to co-operate with other users. He continues to push his POV, despite the urges of myself and User:Fullstop for him to self-revert and gain consensus for his desired changes first. I gave him more than 24 hours to at least respond to our comments before reporting him here, but he has made no response. John Smith's (talk) 14:28, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

JohnSmiths makes several false claims here. First, though, if I am guilty of gaming the system by reverting shortly after a week, then so is JohnSmiths, as he has done exactly this, as well. Its hypocritical of him to come here to file a complaint about me, describing a behavior, he is currently engaged in. Also, he if he correct about me editing against consensus, then he would not need to revert himself---he would leave it to someone else to revert me. But, instead he is the only one who reverts me. Again, if my edit represents something against consensus, then surely, someone--anyone--would revert me, not JohnSmiths. Lastly, his comments here and on the talk page consistently demonstrate a violation of policy: the failure to assume good faith. Hence, his statement that I must be waiting for holidays, Christmas, New Years, in order to make my edit, "hoping that he would be too busy to notice what I'm doing, etc" Classic bad faith. Of course, it didn't occur to him that just maybe that is when I have some free time, in order to edit? Of course not. Lastly, he says I'm not cooperating. Also untrue as proven by my discussions on the talk page. And consensus is not establised by just two users--himself and Fullstop, esp. when they don't address the problem I've raised about bias.Giovanni33 (talk) 19:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Giovanni, you are misrepresenting the facts. I reverted having tried to discuss the issue with you on the talk page first - you decided not to interact. I also reverted several hours after a week. You reverted 10 minutes after a week. So, quite clearly, you are comparing apples with oranges.
As for someone else reverting, some users never like to revert unless it's vandalism. Whether people revert or not does not reflect consensus.
To accuse me of bad faith because I believe you acted in bad faith is a rather poor attempt to deflect criticism. Unless you wish to claim that the only free time you have over the next couple of weeks is on Christmas and New Year's Eve, there was no need to push the issue right now. As I said quite clearly you could have continued this matter after the holiday period. To not even attempt to see whether people were free on the talk page is not acting in good faith given how busy a lot of Wikipedians are at this time of year.
Finally, I don't see leaving a comment, reverting and repeating once a week as you have done as being a sign of co-operation. I have said this time and time again - if you cannot spare the time to post, say so and highlight when you are free to talk. Yet for some reason you keep refusing to do this. Why do we have to run around you? John Smith's (talk) 19:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • You will both stop the foolishness, or you will both be blocked. Revert parole is absolutely not an entitlement, it is a limit. Breaking the spirit while keeping to the letter of a restriction is not acceptable, the intent of the restriction is to get you to stop revert warring not just make the wars slower. Guy (Help!) 10:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Guy, what am I supposed to do? He won't listen to reason - Fullstop has been on at him too. I've complained to admins here and elsewhere, but no action has been taken. If I don't revert he will keep the article as he likes it and then leave it there. In the past I have also not done anything for days, trying to engage him in conversation. Then when I see no response I make a change and hey-presto he appears like magic, reverts, leaves a single comment and disappears for another week.
Are you implying that if he reverts again and I come here first, he will be banned? Some sort of statement would help - otherwise he won't change his behaviour. John Smith's (talk) 11:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The pair of you are pretty much indistinguishable, from a behaviour point of view. What I see there is two competing versions, neither acceptable to the other. The solution is either to achieve consensus for one or other on the discussion page, or to work out a compromise form. Guy (Help!) 12:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Guy, that doesn't answer my question. If Giovanni reverts again can I leave the page alone safe in the knowledge that he will be blocked if reported here? You made a warning by saying "stop.... or you will be blocked", so that implies action will be taken. Can you make it clearer so that a future admin will definitely do something and Giovanni knows where the line is, so he can't complain he didn't know he was doing anything wrong. Otherwise it's another vague warning that he won't take seriously.
The only reason I have reverted is that each time I come here no action is taken against him. If admins such as yourself did block Giovanni for reverting and not properly engaging in discussion then I wouldn't. The effect of the response so far from the admin community is that it's ok for Giovanni to revert because he's sticking to the letter of the rules, but wrong when I respond because it goes against the spirit. That would essentially give him the right to edit any article I work on as he likes and ignore what others want. I have discussed various issues with him for almost a whole year now. He isn't some casual editor who it is easy to work something else out - he is never happy until he gets his own way. I worked out a compromise version with User:Fullstop and Giovanni - Giovanni then wanted to change that to another version which he insisted on by himself. I'm not saying that is what you think, but it's what the previous comments from admins amounts to.
If you honestly believe I'm no different from Giovanni, read what Fullstop had to say here. He is a completely neutral editor in this whole affair, only becoming involved after I asked a style question on a page he frequents. John Smith's (talk) 13:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, the solution os for both of you to stop edit warring ans start discussing. If he refuses to discuss, and if there is consensus on the talk page for your preferred version, and he reverts anyway, then it's an unambiguous case. Joining in the slow-burning (and distinctly lame) edit war only makes it impossible to distinguish between you. Guy (Help!) 16:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Guy, for seeing through JohnSmiths dishonesty here; the obvious fact is that we were both reverting each other, just after one week (with no other editors reverting)--and this is not what should be done. JohnSmiths should really give admins here more credit; painting a very one sided picture here, in an attempt to bully his way via intimitation, instead of reason, to get his version, will not work. As for myself, I'll seek, through a Rfc, others editors to look over the dispute and see if there can be some consensus that is reached. I hope JohnSmith will stop his weekly revert, and if he continues when its clearly against consensus, I hope that your warning to both of us here suffices as an adequate warning to his ongoing behaviors that violate the spirit of the revert parole, not to mention his throwing rocks while himself living a house of glass.heheGiovanni33 (talk) 06:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
So does this mean that you will stop your weekly revert, Giovanni? Also you might want to state whether you need to agree to something for it to be consensus. I'm sorry it had to come to this, but I don't think you would have made any commitment to seek outside help if I hadn't reverted you and reported you here. The repeated comments from Fullstop and myself weren't succeeding in encouraging you to seek outside help so something else had to be tried. John Smith's (talk) 07:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Pocopocopocopoco

User:Pocopocopocopoco is mass reverting and reinserting the closed Wikiproject Karabakh tag, without leaving any comment , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , . That's 17 reverts or (re)insertions within 30 minutes. Atabek (talk) 22:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Is he the subject of any arbitration ruling? I can't see that he is. This is for enforcing arbitration decisions only, not dealing with disputes. Contact him via his talk page and if necessary go the administrators' board.
When you do ask for an arbitration ruling to be enforced, please list each new case at the bottom. John Smith's (talk) 22:26, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The contributor is already involved in edit wars in several articles on the topic of Armenia-Azerbaijan. The relevant ArbCom stated a remedy on applicability to all disruptive editors, under which User:Aynabend and User:Andranikpasha have already been placed under parole for disruptive editing. That's why I reported the mass reverting to WP:AE as it deals specifically with Armenia-Azerbaijan related articles. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 22:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Bah. I've rolled back all his edits, which made no sense as that WikiProject isn't going to be allowed to exist for at least another month. Thinking about other stuff as well, maybe. Moreschi 22:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No, leaving this for now. I've left a warning against making future mass reverts. He's not an ultra-regular participant in the Armenia-Azeri conflicts and edits regularly in other areas, nor is he subject to any of the AA2 restrictions: moreoever, his recent block for edit-warring was related to another topic altogether. Moreschi 22:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Well shouldn't User:Parishan be placed under AA2 restrictions then? Since he mass reverted and is an ultra-regular participant in the Armenia-Azeri conflicts and all his blocks are related to the conflict.-- Ευπάτωρ 23:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I reverted them before the warning was issued. I've only been blocked three times and my most recent block was not related to the conflict, and was carried out almost 10 months ago. Parishan (talk) 23:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I want to state that I wasn't aware of any of this drama when I reverted back in the wikiproject template to the articles and I apologize if it's caused grief to anyone. The reason for the revert was summarized in the edit summary of my first revert. I felt (and still feel) that adding this wikiproject would facilitate greater collaboration and participation to the articles and hence facilitate the improvement of the articles and the project. One of the areas that I edit are unrecognized countries and hence I joined this wikiproject and I find it useful to collaborate with other editors interested in Nagorno-Karabakh. I am neither a participant in WikiProject Armenia or WikiProject Azeri (although they are probably both interesting topics). My understanding is that Atabek's (and other peoples) concerns are with the image in the template. Could we lift the moratorium on this project if we change the template to a neutral template? Please see the template in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Abkhazia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not only. Provided that this POV project is currently forwarded to Wikiproject Armenia, it's sufficient to add Wikiproject Armenia along with Wikiproject Azeri on disputed topics. Atabek (talk) 07:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Every project has a POV and you can not censor a project because you don't agree with it. VartanM (talk) 08:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The vast majority of WikiProjects are not out to push a POV, believe it or not. Moreschi 18:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The concern is that this is an ethnic POV project about a region which has diverse ethnic and historical identity. Nagorno-Karabakh is a conflict between Azeris and Armenians, between Azerbaijan and Armenia, not between Azeris and some non-existent ethnic group Karabakhis. History of Karabakh does not exist outside and independent of Azeri or Armenian domain. Atabek (talk) 08:39, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

That makes no sense. Wikiproject Azerbaijan is an ethnic POV project about a region which has diverse ethnic identity. There are group of members who are feeling there is a need to collaborate in a common project and no real life conflict or dispute can not stand on their way. We are here to build an encyclopedia and no one has the right to stop us from doing that. Moreschi censored the project simply because it was hurting some users feelings. Expect to see those project tags to go back up once the project is re-opened. Maybe then you'll come to terms that Nagorno-Karabakh Republic exists. VartanM (talk) 09:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
De facto yes, de iure no. Vartan, you know this - you're deliberately trying to fan the flames here just to piss off the Azeris, quite frankly. Why? Down that route lies wiki-suicide, I warn you. More on this to come below. Moreschi 18:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I only said the opposite of what Atabek said, where is the warning to Atabek for calling Nagorno-Karabak people non-existent? Or was that non inflammatory? It was the direct cause of my suicidal comment. VartanM (talk) 00:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

As I see it, the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh is the source of almost all the conflict between Armenian and Azeri editors. This conflict has reached fever pitch over the past few weeks, as anybody can tell from looking at this very Arbitration Enforcement page. We should be looking to cool things down not inflame them. Promoting Project:Karabakh right now is definitely not going to help matters. The only reason we have projects in the first place is to help build Misplaced Pages. They are not there to demonstrate editors' allegiance to a particular stance, although inevitably this is a big temptation with "national" projects. Nobody needs a project to edit a topic area anyway and people have worked on NK articles long before the existence of Project:Karabakh, which was virtually dormant until a couple of days ago. As I've said, we should be looking to turn the heat down on the current Armenia-Azerbaijan dispute on Misplaced Pages, otherwise I can see another ArbCom coming round the corner - and that will benefit nobody. --Folantin (talk) 09:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds right to me. I think somebody needs to patiently explain that, while we appreciate and understand their national pride and historic grievances, Misplaced Pages is not the place to refight old battles, but to document them in terms on which both sides can agree. I'm guessing most of them don't have English as a first language, which often makes nuance conversation more difficult. Guy (Help!) 10:46, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Let me ask a question: Would Atabek and Grandmaster, for example, be welcomed at WikiProject_Karabakh? Thatcher 19:01, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Absolutely. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Joining the project would go against their belief of Nagarno-Karabakh being non-existent, . Other then that, they are welcome to join, the same way some of them joined project Armenia and versa. VartanM (talk) 02:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's start with this: none of you should want to go down the route of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 3. The arbitrators will lose their patience and ban the lot of you, which would be sad, really. The conflicts over Nagorno-Karabakh have got to stop, or at the least slow down, because I know this could so easily be the blue touchpaper that gets everyone kicked out. Trust me: I spend a lot of time hanging around ArbCom-related stuff and know quite well the limits of the arbitrator's patience.

Another point is this: nobody needs a WikiProject to edit, and if it's collaboration needed or some such concept, use the talk page or existing projects - Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Armenia or WP:AZERI. Don't use this ghastly creation that's only going to aggravate one side of the conflict, is only ever going to push a POV, and as Vartan's "Maybe then you'll come to terms that Nagorno-Karabakh Republic exists" gives away, is only ever going to a statement of intent along the lines of "We believe in the NKR. Amen.".

That's pointless. It's got nothing to do with the encyclopaedia. You don't need to this WikiProject to do this. At the moment, both sides here are potentially staring at the abyss over the edge of the proverbial cliff edge - I urge you all to step back before you pull each other over. ArbCom is the whirlpool waiting at the bottom. Moreschi 19:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not doing anything deliberately, if you're gonna enforce any policies, then you have to assume good faith on me the same way you seem to always assume good faith for the other side, who just recently created and mass voted against the deletion of a FORK of 4 or even 5 articles. I haven't seen you say anything about it. Or their opposition to the renaming of a category which claims Azerbaijani Khanates, when most of the results on google book call them Persian or Iranian Khanates (how is this not provocation, and how is this not a deliberate attempt to fan the flame war against Iranian users?). The category on Artsakh, call it what you want should exist, and only the fact that various articles can be included in it is strong evidence. Other similar categories about other non de jure republics exist, I haven't seen you say anything about for instance this category. Also, I'd like Thatcher to clarify on what he means by welcomed? Why should they not, is Thatcher insinuating that they won't? When anything prevented Grandmaster or Atabek contributing before? I am surprised that Administrators are still consistent and systematic on taking one sided position on this issue.
If you wanted to help, you would have brought the two side to discussion to know what to do to satisfy both, but instead, you removed the category and excused a user who again massively reverted (Parishan). And for your information, the reason why I have chosen Artsakh and not Karabakh, is because both are not the same, Artsakh encompassed a larger territory and has a history in the BCs. But that could have been debated. It is sad that Golbez got pushed out from mediation, when he was known to revert both sides, he was replaced by administrators, who under the guise of arbitration enforcement systematically make one sided decisions. It is also fishy that I am included in the probation for something as ridiculous as an edit summary which has everything to do with the content of the article, but that Parishan who has a much longer edit warring history than me and who can make such remarks: ...you deleted it just because you personally disagreed with it. systematically gets away from such a probation.
And Thatcher, before claiming that Eupator action of renaming an article could have warranted a block, you should have understood the rational behind it. The talkpage was full of justification and Eupator had to deal with users who claimed Turkmen (aka Turkoman) as Azeri (eg. , and ironically seen in this diff., he's only recently accepted Turkic in the article, but it's still inaccurate) to dump all Turks or Turkic people as Azeris (from Moreschi's logic, should this not be to fan a flame war, after all Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan have some problems in terms of their relations these days). This was all I had to say. VartanM (talk) 21:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know why User:VartanM decided to include issues regarding the Azeris in Armenia discussion here, and I could not help but notice that he has presented facts one-sidedly which is why I thought I should leave a quick comment. I apologize if I am going offtopic. Eupator's rationale (which participants of the discussion had no chance to review, since the user renamed the article from the very moment he presented his arguments) was challenged by me presenting a number of neutral sources equating the terms for Turkic-speakers of pre-Soviet Armenia to Azeris . All Eupator said in responce could be classified as original research, i.e. inventing terms ("proto-Azeris") and facts ("Turkic population living there were not identified by one group", "Turkic population there could have been identified as Turkmen, Turkish, Tatars"), restating his disproved rationale and ultimately failing to prove that the subject of the discussion had anything to do with Turkey, or Tatarstan, or Turkmenistan, similar to VartanM's claims above. Original research is also defined by Misplaced Pages as unsourced information obtained from personal experience, so I don't believe there was anything incivil in saying "you personally disagreed".
As for my reverts, I removed a link to a non-existing project, one time per page, before the discussion over WP:Karabakh was in progess. I was not edit-warring, nor proving a point, nor making incivil comments. Parishan (talk) 07:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Moreschi, the problems with collaborating with regard to Karabakh stuff within the two wikiprojects you mentioned is that could take up a lot of space within WP:Armenia or WP:Azeri and this might not be ideal. Please have a look at these articles that were to be created. I was planning to add a whole bunch more related to companies operating and based in Karabakh. I think this could potentially swamp WP:Armenia or Azeri. Perhaps some Armenian and Azeri wikipedians are not all that interested in Karabakh (I believe user:Aramgutang was one of them) and they join there respective wikiprojects in order to collaborate on Armenian or Azeri culture. Another option would be to create a sub-project within the respective wikiprojects similar to how WP:MILITARY has many task forces we could set up a task force within one of the wikiprojects. This would be the worst option IMHO because setting up a Karabakh task force within one wikiproject would make it tempting for the editors of the other wikiproject to also set up a Karabakh task force within their wikiproject. Hence editors that aren't of either ethnic background (such as myself) would be left having to pick a side and offending the other side and it would further cause strife between the two groups of wikipedians. Hence I feel a Wikiproject Karabakh that is inclusive to all editors regardless of ethnic background and is independent of the two wikiprojects is the best option. I fully understand if the consensus is to wait a little while to let things cool off so I will take your sugestion and put the relevant pieces in my user space as I feel this project was gaining momentum and I would like that to continue. Please see User:Pocopocopocopoco/Karabakh_collaboration and let me know if this is OK for a temporary collaboration until the moratorium is lifted on Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Karabakh. Once it is lifted, I will update the project from this my user space. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's imagine that I and other Azerbaijani users signed up for Karabakh wikiproject, will you be for instance willing to remove all the "NKR" emblems from wikiproject userboxes and tags? Since the region is de-jure part of Azerbaijan, I believe that Azerbaijani colors should be included there. From what I see, this wikiproject is intended for Armenian users only, and participation of people not sharing pro-separatist POV will lead to conflicts over every minor detail. That's why I said that this wikiproject is divisive, which wikiprojects should not be, as they are intended to help editors to actually collaborate on creating a good encyclopedia. I don't see how this wikiproject is any useful and if there's anything this wikiproject could do that cannot be done in Wikiproject Armenia. Btw, Vartan's claim that "Wikiproject Azerbaijan is an ethnic POV project" is clearly bad faith. See how many people of various ethnic and national affiliations signed up for it and how good we cooperate on creating articles covering various Azerbaijan related topics. This wikiproject could be an example for others. I always welcomed Armenian users singing up for Azerbaijani wikiproject, see the talk of Azeri Wikiproject. If anyone needs more than one wikiproject to cover the NK issue, you are welcome to sign up to more than one well-established wikiproject. Grandmaster (talk) 10:32, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Namescases (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Violation of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/MONGO#Links to ED by bypassing the spam blacklist using I'm Feeling Lucky. Keeps trolling for a link addition. Will 00:40, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking at his contributions -- see for example the early edit to Oklahoma, the abuse of a good editor adjacent to that, and the long trolling thread at Talk:Fidel Castro, prior to the trolling to add ED links -- it's amazing he got away with it as long as he did. Indef blocked. Feel free to disagree, but there's no need to waste time with this kind of editor; we're an encyclopedia, not a baby-sitting service. Antandrus (talk) 01:02, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Another Eastern European flamer

The situation is analogous to the one I presented a few weeks ago; only the disruptive user in question that needs our attention has changed. The user in question is Matthead (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and likewise he is a highly ucivil editor active in discussions related to various Eastern European topics, an area which has been subject to a series of recent ArbCom rulings noting the tendency for discussions and articles involving those subjects to deteriorate into wiki-battles, and the resulting need for civility enforcement. To be more specific: in the Piotrus case (closed on 19 August 2007), editors were reminded of the need to edit courteously and cooperatively in the future under the treat of further sanctions. In Digwuren's case (closed on 21 October 2007), several editors were banned, and the rest were warned not to use Misplaced Pages as the battleground and placed under general restriction ("should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below").

I believe that Matthead has constantly - for well over a year - crossed boundaries we expect our editors to keep. Below I will present a sample of his uncivil and disruptive edits that occurred since the last ArbCom ruling (Digwuren's case); please note that just a week ago User:Jossi, witnessing disruptive behavior of Matthead on this very forum, told him that "In looking at your edit history, I would argue that you need to be placed under the same restrictions specified at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#General_restriction" (technical note: there is even a dedicated template for this, see {{Digwuren enforcement}}). It appears that this warning has had little effect on Matthead, just a few hours ago he has attacked me on my user page, with the obvious intent of trying to minimize my contributions, offend me and chase me away from this project: (for some reason, he is evidently unhappy with me creating content - some of which was DYKed - related to Duchies of Silesia; his recent comments suggest I am a 'disruptive Polish nationalist' who should feel sorry for writing articles: , ). In either case, those edits of his represents only a tip of an iceberg; he has been uncivil and disruptive for a long time, and I believe that such behavior should not be permitted - especially since Digwuren's ArbCom made it clear it is not welcomed, and Matthead has been warned about it.

Matt


--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 14:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment. Please do not drag me into your never ending and constant quarrels with other Wikipedians. Please desist from insulting me by calling me a flamer (I'd like an apology, btw). Your opening salvo of calling this a editor a "flamer" is not a very civil way to begin your displeasure with perceived incivility. Anyone is welcome to post on my talk page, and I encourage it, and do not consider it stalking. I read your posts and accusing someone of Racism here is really too much. This constant attempt to censor people who do not agree with you is unhealthy and unecessary. Lastly, please try to be fair and at least chide some of your own colleagues who engage in similar actions. That would be a good start. Have a good day. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)