Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:42, 6 January 2008

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Question for R. fiend

I wondered if you had a reply to my suggestion here? The thread was closed before you had a chance to reply, perhaps? Apologies if you already replied and I missed it, but I thought my suggestion made sense. --John (talk) 06:26, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Certainly one of the more sensible things I've seen recently. I wasn't aware that it required a response. But I am in general agreement. However, I am not going to apologize for fixing a typo. I am learning from this experience, I don't mind saying. -R. fiend (talk) 19:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Easter Rising

Alison, on the Easter Rising article, there were two occasions were the page was protected, and on both occasions the page block was breached. The first occasion was here, protected by Luna, the protection was then breached here, with this comment on the talk page. Having pointed that they were told not to edit the page I got this response. There was a storm of protest on the talk page, if you notice there were two changes made. There was no agreement at all on the first of them, and it materially changed the whole context of the statement. This is outlined here and here in a rather long thread. The thing is, they knew what they were doing. They knew there was no agreement, and made me out to be a liar. I explained this and Fozzie checked it out, and agreed I was right. So while Jj137 page protected the article again the somewhat trivial edits take on a whole new aspect? So you have two breaches of page protection, despite the problems created. I just seems on the RfC, that the two have become mixed up? Thanks again, and I left a post here for you as well.--Domer48 (talk) 11:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion from project page

To my (RxS (talk)) outside view R. fiend said:

RESPONSE: It seems you might be taking my "elsewhere" comment as a "don't edit Misplaced Pages if you don't like me personally", which is not the case. By elsewhere, I meant "if you're looking for a warm and friendly face, you're better off seeking another person." Not sure if you were interpreting that as such, but I want to clarify nevertheless. -R. fiend (talk) 19:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

When you say go elsewhere it's easy to imagine you mean some other site or article as opposed to if you had said go speak to someone else. But that's semantics and doesn't get to the heart of the point. An editor shouldn't have to pick and choose who to talk to if they want to avoid sarcastic/snide or generally uncivil responses. And they definitely shouldn't have to be afraid to approach an admin for the same reasons. The bottom line is that there's an enormous amount of space between warm/fuzzy and uncivil...and admins are really expected to act in that space. They can be warm and fuzzy if they want, but they can't be uncivil and snide if they want. I realize that everyone makes mistakes, and there has been times that everyone slips into incivility, but here it's a pattern and something you think (or seem to think) is ok. RxS (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, there is a difference between snide and snarky, and uncivil. The RfC seems to have turned from a question of abuse of admin powers to referendum on "isn't this guy an asshole?" The only examples of uncivil behavior have been involving one specific person, who has been widely criticized for the same thing. (Only he's worse, BTW) People have been complaining about my tone or whatever here, but where is the actual uncivil behavior? I used the word "puerile" because it is probably the most accurate word to describe Domer's behavior, and I'm not going to dance around that fact. Believe me, I could have used much harsher descriptions. I have little tolerance for idiocy. Sorry, but there is idiocy displayed at Misplaced Pages on a daily basis, and it does no good to deny that, nor to tolerate it. "Douchebaggery" is perhaps not the best word (I've been trying to get it used more ever since the captain of the ship I worked on used it in a memo to his boss, describing his behavior), and I considered linking to WP:DICK, but I didn't think that much better. As for "whining" well, when people complain about things that benefit them, I call it whining. Everyone agrees that my recent edits to Easter Rising were beneficial (even necessary, I'll warrant), to complain because I did it is the worst form of wikilawyering, and losing sight of what's most important, which is improving Misplaced Pages articles. So that's my response. Has anyone seen an example where I was approached by someone in a civil manner and I responded with hostility? No one has pointed one out yet, that I have seen. Thanks for your time. -R. fiend (talk) 20:35, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

RxS is right to point to the general problem of having to avoid editors who are unpleasant, but I think that there is a particular difficulty when an admin is a self-described "snide bastard". When R.fiend says that he meant "if you're looking for a warm and friendly face, you're better off seeking another person", I think that he is missing an important point: when the person one is dealing with is an admin, an editor doesn't always have the choice of finding someone else, unless they go through the hassle of escalating an issue to ANI or some other such forum, which new editors may not even know about. People have a right to expect civility from whoever they encounter, and since Misplaced Pages:Civility is a policy, not just a guideline, I don't think someone who apparently rejects that policy should be an admin.

R.fiends's response that he is snide and snarky only when provoked is not acceptable either; WP:CIVIL#Reducing_the_impact outlines various ways of responding to perceived incivility, none of which involves being uncivil in reply, and my reading of WP:CIVIL is that it does not permit "snide and snarky" behaviour. R.fiend, please can you re-read Misplaced Pages:Civility and see if you want to reconsider the comment to which I am replying? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

How is calling me "unpleasant" any better than me calling Domer "puerile"? This RfC has become about personality now. Well, in four years of editing here, there are very few instances of alleged incivility, and none of them were actual personal attacks. One was an edit summary directed at no one. The only talk page comment mentioned was misrepresented as being about politics. I'm not trying to be combative here, but I am trying to explain the actions I made, which is not the same as denying I ever did anything wrong. I do think most actions I've made were justified, which is why I made them. Of course everyone makes mistakes. I admit blocking Domer myself probably wasn't the best idea, but, that being said, the block itself was justified, and upheld. Of course the situation would be different if Domer hadn't violated 3rr, or if my recent edits to Easter Rising were even in the slightest way controversial. But that is not the case.

Incidentally, I think you dividing issues into "Yes I was wrong", and "unfounded" is putting words in my mouth, and slightly unfair.-R. fiend (talk) 21:24, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. I did not call you "unpleasant". I referred to the "general problem of having to avoid editors who are unpleasant", and when it came to I used your own self-chosen label of "snide bastard".

And I didn't "put words in your mouth". You yourself wrote "Perhaps the best way to proceed from here would be to divide the accusations into those in which I admit I could have shown better judgment and those that are without basis", which I summarised as "Yes I was wrong", and "unfounded". It seems to me to be entirely clear what was a quote from you and what wasn't, nd the summary seems very straightfoward.

Sadly, all the responses seem to fit a similar pattern. Your responses seem to be saying you attach derogatory labels to others, that's fine because it's just the way you are, and when other editors object to that self-description, you complain that it is "about personality now". Insofar as it as bout personality, that is solely because you have chosen to defend your conduct by describing it as part of your character: you made it a personality issue. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You'll forgive me, I'm sure, under the circumstances, for assuming when you talked of unpleasant editors you meant me. No matter. As to this matter of attaching derogatory epithets to others, you make it seem like that's just sort of what I do. Now when do I do this exactly? I called Domer's behavior "puerile" to be sure (which is not exactly the same thing as calling him puerile), but I found it a fitting description. Call a spade a spade. When someone behaves poorly, is it really fair to fault the person who points out the poor behavior? Also note that I said can be a snide bastard, not that I totally am, and even that is more about tone than action. My dismissal of the AN/I is a good example of my snide side showing. I honestly did (and basically still do) think that it was just silly, and I didn't balk at making that clear. A needed change was made, and one can argue whether the end justifies the means, but it's not like a had to stab anyone in the throat to do it. In any case, I don't want to dwell on the recent Rising edits. People seem to be under the impression that I am constantly combating other users and making personal attacks, but this really just isn't the case. -R. fiend (talk) 22:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I would say most people feel the problem is your apparent unwillingness to justify your actions when questioned rather than the actions themselves; combined with your seeming inability to understand that other editors may justifiably require you to do so... Well, it's not looking good, and you'd go a long way to mending things if you could acknowledge that rather than dismiss it out of hand. — Coren  22:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been attempting to justify, or at least explain, my actions. When I do that it seems I get attacked for not admitting I did anything wrong. Now, when I said I could be something of a snide bastard, it was sort of a mea culpa. It's part of who I am, (can a leopard change his spots?) but I could certainly work harder to keep that in check at times. That being said, I have been editing here for 4 years or so, and in that time I've had many encounters with many users, and I would not like to think that the 3 or 4 worst examples should be representative of my interactions as a whole. I'll admit my "fascist censorship" summary was a bit over the top. It was meant in jest, but I am fully aware not everyone will appreciate it. So yes, I have not always acted entirely admirably, but I do not think that such actions warrant an RfC, but that is clearly only my opinion. This is clearly about several small issues rather than any one major one, and I think some of them are just not worthwhile, some have been misrepresented, and some, as I said, have some validity. -R. fiend (talk) 02:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment on views of RxS and BrownHairedGirl

I share the worries of many well-respected editors here, that R. fiend has misused his admin powers in disputes. I also heartily endorse the sentiment that adherence to our policies (including WP:CIVIL) cannot be optional and that indeed admins should attempt to model above-average standards of behaviour. However, I would only see deadminship as necessary if there is evidence that R. Fiend has not learned from others' criticisms here. Per this comment above I am not sure that this is the case.

It would be appreciated if R. fiend could find it in himself to make an unconditional apology for his misconduct; it was all the more frustrating for me personally as I was one of a number of admins who tried to counsel him away from the behaviour that is the subject of the current discussion. A recommendation of deadminship would, in my opinion, be necessary only if there is no commitment to improve in future.

Finally it is important to realise that the existence of uncivil editors with passionate POVs, and edit-warring, on this area of articles may provide mitigation of R. fiend's behaviour, but it does not excuse it. We should all be capable of learning from criticism here. --John (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a fair point. Its important to remember it is not always easy being an admin, sometimes you can use the tools with the best intentions in challenging situations but end up misusing them. That sometimes we can overstep the line is natural and to be expected, and not grounds for de-adminship. However, its equally important that we can recognize the occurrences that happens and attempt to resolve them.

Rather than taking away his toolbelt, I would much rather an acknowledgment that there is a problem and an concerted effort to remedy it and not repeat it. However, at least on the RfC page itself, I see little appreciation for the concerns of others and what appears to be a dismissive attitude - (paraphrasing) "this is what I am like and I passed an RfA, so live with it". In that situation, I would suggest the admin put his money where his mouth is and permit the community at large to decide whether indeed that is an acceptable attitude for an admin. The way to do that is to volunteer another RfA. Rockpocket 01:16, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Conduct not content

Since it appears that I’m becoming the focus of some attention, and quite a number of allegations, which deflects from the issue involved here, might I suggest that at the conclusion of this current RfC, that one be initiated about my conduct? Regardless of the outcome of this RfC, I take comfort from the fact that contrary to my deeply held assumption, the community is not deaf, dumb or blind to the actions of Administrators. Having now seen the attention to detail, the time and effort which has gone into producing this report, I will not demean it with any attempt to justify or mitigate any of my behaviour, regardless of frustration, provocation or what I may have regrettably perceived to be a lack of interest by Administrators. Content disputes come and go, but its how we conduct ourselves, and the example we give that tells on us all. --Domer48 (talk) 22:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I know there has been talk of a WP:RFC/U for you, but I am not sure what was decided. I find it interesting that you are asking for one though. - Rjd0060 (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You have to understand that the presumption that an editor that is complaining about administrator bias or misbehavior is without basis is very rarely unfounded. I would ballpark estimate that well over 95% of complaints against administrators are made in bad faith; and that's probably a bit optimistic— that's why you need a strong, well supported case before the community reacts; after all an administrator has already earned the community's trust. This often led to cries of cabals. But – quite opposite to the common misperception – administrators, as a community, are very unforgiving of misbehaving peers.

What you may have encountered in the past is more likely to be well-founded skepticism than a brush off; and it's an unfortunate but unavoidable fact that the rare genuine cry of admin abuse is met with resistance and disbelief at first.

There is a very good reason why administrators are, basically, given tenure: almost by definition the acts we have to take everyday will displease someone— and often those angered editors will be the – shall we say – less well behaved among us. Blocking someone, preventing edition and outright deleting prose are all innately unpopular acts (if necessary) and making administrators dependent on transient mood or an Astroturf campaign would scare most into not acting when necessary. — Coren  22:25, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

In reply to Rjd0060, I simply don’t want to deflect editors attention from the issue at hand. A lot of this conduct predates any interaction with me. If I’m in the wrong, well then I must accept any sanctions imposed. Having been a participant in two ArbCom’s, I bound by all determinations. I simply want to edit articles. I enjoy it. I don’t consider the articles I edit to be contentious, it’s the editors that create that. If Administrators find fault with my conduct, as part of any sanction, I would hope they could also provide me with some problem solving alternatives to any behaviour which they consider escalates issues. For example, I have just come round to the notion that rather than revert an edit, which is unreferenced add a “Fact Tag.” Or where an editor/admin uses a term such as “Many historians say” rather than revert it as comment or opinion add a “Specify Tag.” I have requested in the past that my edits be monitored, and to be pulled up if I step out of line. But most important of all, that I feel I have the support of Administrators if my efforts at problem solving are proving ineffective. Like I said, all I want to do is edit. --Domer48 (talk) 22:46, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I would welcome an RfC on Domer48. Domer has already said on the Easter Rising talk page that he would be in favour of an RfC. I would far rather discuss my statement there than here. Scolaire (talk) 22:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. When I said interesting, that wasn't a negative thing. I would want to address accusations against myself also. - Rjd0060 (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

No I did'ent take it as being negative, but I will admit like I said that I am also being selfish for suggesting it.--Domer48 (talk) 23:14, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

On a personal note, a RfC on me, would give me the opportunity to address some of the allegations that are made about me. I will concede that is a very selfish reason, considering the time and effort that goes into it. But like I said, I will not defend any incivility by me regardless! --Domer48 (talk) 22:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)