Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 15:04, 10 January 2008

Template:WP1.0

	Northern Ireland was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones Date Process Result December 16, 2005 Good article nominee Listed September 7, 2006 Peer review Reviewed September 19, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Northern Ireland B‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Northern Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Northern Ireland on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Northern IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject Northern IrelandTemplate:WikiProject Northern IrelandNorthern Ireland-related B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

UK geography B‑class Top‑importance

This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.UK geographyWikipedia:WikiProject UK geographyTemplate:WikiProject UK geographyUK geography B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

United Kingdom Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject United Kingdom, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the United Kingdom on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.United KingdomWikipedia:WikiProject United KingdomTemplate:WikiProject United KingdomUnited Kingdom ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization: Rebecca Black (2007-08-15). "Website sparks online flag debate". The News Letter. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Archives

1 2 3 4 5

GA delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Misplaced Pages:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of September 19, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R.

• Every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation.
• References should state the author, publisher, publishing date and access date if known.

Regards, Epbr123 12:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Same thing happened to Dublin - yer just not gettin' yer act together folks! Too much bickering. (Sarah777 21:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC))

Ulster Banner straw poll

Hello there,

A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:38, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Count this up

Republican paramilitaries have contributed to nearly 60% (2056) of these. Loyalists have killed nearly 28% (1020) while the security forces have killed just over 11% (362) with 9% percent of those attributed to the British Army. That comes to 108% it's meant to be 100% so who added on the extra 8% ? - Culnacréann 18:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Where did you go to school 60+28+11=99 the 9% figure is taken from the security force 11%, which would mean the other 3% of that would be attributed to the RUC/PSNI.--Padraig 18:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Why quibble? Surely Loyalist/RUC/BA killings should just be bundled together as is done with "Republican paramilitaries"? Then when we look at civilian deaths the British side emerge as the champs. (Sarah777 22:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC))

The Army and NI Police are not paramilitaries. Astrotrain 20:47, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Prior to the GFA they were just that. (Sarah777 21:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

no they wern'tDionysus99 19:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Described at as "Paramilitary designates forces whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military force, but which are not regarded as having the same status". Thus the Army are not a paramilitary- whereas the terrorist organisations can be decribed as such. Astrotrain 21:58, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

They were not terrorist organisations. You shouldn't use meaningless words. BA and RUC were trained killers. Fact. Loyalist/RUC/BA killings; all the same. (Sarah777 23:05, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

It is rationale to list them by Republican terrorist killings, Loyalist terrorist killings, Police and then Army. They are all independent of each other. And I suppose the Army are trained killers, it is their job!

Astrotrain 23:10, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

And one they did rather well when it came to Catholic civilians, but weren't so good at killing freedom fighters. Paid killers. It is rational to have only two main lists: Freedom Fighters and British Murder Gangs. Why over-egg it? All else is bull. (Sarah777 23:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

And btw Astro, you are transparent; but you'll never make a charge of "anti-Britishness" stick when you are actively making provocative statements. Try it and see! (Sarah777 23:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

I haven't made any charges against you. And I haven't made any provocative statements (most people would not be offended by referring to IRA/UVF etc as a terrorist organisation in line with how the British and Irish governments do). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astrotrain (talk • contribs) 23:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

You know you can't call folk terrorists on Wiki. And you have to be very careful who you accuse of genocide or Nazi similarities too. (Sarah777 23:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Do we really have to have this political propoganda pushed onto wikipedia. The official forces of any state are never viewed as paramilitary organisations by any neutral party. Sarah777, I think you should really consider what you want to acheive on this encyclopedia. Trolling is not the purpose of wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZincBelief (talk • contribs) 10:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Northern Ireland in the UK

Added to opening line constituent country, which Northern Ireland is, matching it with England, Wales and Scotland. GoodDay 20:06, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Removed that. Please don't include controversial terms which are still under discussion. There is no agreement on this. (Sarah777 20:35, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

If it is sourced to Downing Street website, it can be used. As usual, Irish Republican editors only want to use sources if it suits their own POV. Astrotrain 20:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I've run into a similiar complaint at Scotland, concerning my recent changes. GoodDay 20:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with using constituent country if it is supported by a WP:V and is a WP:RS.--Padraig 20:55, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Does one reference on a Downing St website make it legal? Make it a fact? And as for reliable sources a political website??! (Sarah777 21:11, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Seems everybit as illigitamite as calling Tipperary or Dublin counties! Fasach Nua 21:23, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Hardly, as NI is clearly not a country. "County Dublin" would imply that it is indeed a county, the hint is in the name. But my objection is to using a political website as a reliable source, especially as it seems the only source. If we can do that it opens up a vast range of possibilities for those of us seeking to balance rampant British pov in Ireland related articles. If some Irish Government website remarks that "British Isles" is an incorrect term for these islands, do we change the article name? (Sarah777 21:38, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

But we're talking about Northern Ireland, not the island of Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. GoodDay 21:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

We are taliking about wikipedia, which unilaterally made Tipperary a county, regardless of the opinion of the Republic of Ireland government, what is to stop WP unilaterally making NI a country, regardless of the UKs view on the matter? Fasach Nua 21:48, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I doubt you'd find many people in Tipperary (or on Earth) who would agree that wikipedia unilaterally made Tipperary a county!! You will find literally zillions of references to attest to the Tipp is a county - you certainly won't have to depend on a single political website! (Sarah777 21:53, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Do these literally zillions of references make it legal? Fasach Nua 22:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about "legal" in ref to Tipp? NI is neither legally a country nor does it have any verifiable references that it is widely regarded as a country. In the link you give I was questioning the implication that the Downing St website implied some legality. The "zillions" for County Tipp are contrasted with the "1" for "NI is a Country". (Sarah777 22:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC))

Nobody said Northern Ireland was a country, it's a constituent country. GoodDay 22:29, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

So, a red rose is not a rose?! (Sarah777 00:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

And is a Koala bear not a bear? Fasach Nua 08:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

But constituent country has "no defined legal meaning" according to the article in Misplaced Pages. You could argue that the Republic of Ireland is a constituent country of "the Home Countries" with regard to rugby just as easily. Coolavokig 09:17, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

The Downing Street website is not definitive, but unsourced republican ideology is? The basis for this discussion is patent nonsense.Traditional unionist —Preceding comment was added at 11:55, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Agree this discussion is nonsense as NI is blindingly obviously not a country, red, Koala, constituent or otherwise and there are no independent or reliable sources to support such a ridiculous claim. As for "unsourced republican ideology" - can't see any in this article - where is it? (Sarah777 13:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

You are stopping the term being used based on unsourced republican ideology. Encarta for one disagrees with you.Traditional unionist 14:31, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Though it probably won't be added, Northern Ireland is a constituent country. However, if it's gonna be banned from this article? Northern Ireland should be omitted from Constituent country and from United Kingdom. We can't have it both ways, enough of this double standard. GoodDay 14:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed from the article Constituent country. The Encarta ref is useful but certainly not enough to set against the overwhelming references to NI as a "province", "statelet", "entity" and so forth. As I said that would be akin to removing the name "British Isles" if we could find a few references to say that Ireland isn't included - which we can. (Sarah777 15:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

This is a very Lame as content disputes go, if Downing street say its a constituent country of the UK and a WP:V has been provided to support that then it should be included, if anyone can find other sources to dispute this then that can also be mentioned, but we can't censor an term just because some may not agree with it.--Padraig 15:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Its good to know some republicans have some common sense.Traditional unionist 15:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No10 is a political website; not a reliable source. Also the uttering of a single website cannot over-ride mass usage. The sources to "dispute" this usage are the vast array of times in print where NI is referred to as a "province" for example. Or a "failed entity" even - probably a more common usage than "country"; after all that is how an Irish Prime Minister (your No10 equivalent) described it. What is important about this is that the very same editors who insist on the term "British Isles" are reversing all the arguments top claim NI is a country. Let us have a SINGLE standard to apply to articles relating to these islands. (Sarah777 15:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

What sort of evidence do you require Padraig to counter the No10 political website? Maybe the Sinn Fein website? If I can muster 5 references to NI as a "province" rather than a "country" is that enough for you? (Sarah777 15:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Sarah the British has always refered to the north as a province not a country, the term constituent country dosent alter that or make it a country as its a meaningless term to start with, and the Downing street website is a British government website, therefore its content is the opinion of the Prime Minister and his government. As for sources on it being refered to as a province, I give sources to support its use in a discussion either in another section of this page or on the United Kingdom talk page, if you want to dig them out, then you could add that it is also regarded as a province. But either way the term cannot be excluded.--Padraig 16:14, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No wish to exclude and certainly not to censor. But the article should call NI a constituent part or province, not a country. We can refer in a footnote or some such that some very limited sources call it a "country" - much as we'd have to do with a claim that the tricolour represents NI in some folks opinion. (Sarah777 16:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Sarah we can use constituent country and add the reference to the Downing Street website, then add the use of the term province also with references.--Padraig 17:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

But that would be like putting the tricolour in the NI box with a ref to the SF website and then adding references to support the use of the Union Jack lower down. My point is that "country" is (almost) original research with very little usage compared to other terms; plus it is inaccurate. (Sarah777 18:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Presumably that means that FIFA has got it wrong all these years – calling Northern Ireland a country ‘n all? And PRONI (a Northern Ireland 'non departmental public body' refers to the 'country of Northern Ireland' on it's first web page, And Britanica.com refer it to a country. Perhaps somebody had better tell the Northern Ireland tourist board is isn't a country as they seem to think it is -. Oh yes and the UK National Statistics call Northern Ireland a country too - but heh! what would they know .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dionysus99 (talk • contribs) 19:53, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

(Deindenting) It seems to me that 'country' is fairly non-specific and uncontentious. It doesn't imply statehood or the like, it's just a place. I think there would be grounds for complaint if it said "constituent nation"! I don't think that Sarah's complaint is well founded. --Red King 20:19, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Not in the least bit uncontentious. NI is simply not a country, by any measure. Redking7 might even agree - it seems he is the chap I thought was you in the Inis Mor affair. (Sarah777 20:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Well ok, maybe it is not a Country! (but then neither is England, Scotland or Wales by the same definition!). --Red King 20:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No Red, I would argue with you on those three despite my not being much given to argument.(Sarah777 21:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Consistancy folks - It's either re-add constituent country here OR remove the term from United Kingdom, England, Wales and Scotland. The current status among these articles are unacceptable. What's it gonna be? GoodDay 21:07, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Important Surrender Announcment: notwithstanding the obvious fact that I am entirely right (as usual) in a spirit of Wikiness, and in the absence of any visible support, I hereby withdraw my objection to describing NI as a "constituent country". (This was in no way related to the fact that Googling "NI is a country" threw up 35,000 hits). (Sarah777 21:38, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

The "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is one country consisting of four parts. The island of "Great Britain" has two constituent countries (Scotland and England), and one principality (Wales). "Northern Ireland" is a province on the island of Ireland. Jnthn Rsh (talk) 18:13, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely correct - but emotions trump facts all the time on Wiki so long as the emotions are in the Anglophone mainstream. (Sarah777 (talk) 02:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC))

Archive

Could some soul with technical knowhow archive the older threads on this page, its getting unwieldly, thanks Fasach Nua 22:52, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Y'know, I was going to say exactly the same thing. So we agree on something? (Sarah777 00:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC))

Done.--Patrick Ѻ 16:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Ireland vs Republic of Ireland

The edit made is fine, but just to clear up the edit summary, the EU website has around 4 and a half thousand references to the Republic of Ireland, and the UN website also refers to it, but a number is hard to find, as google throws up Iran (Islamic Republic of) Ireland as a hit. Which isn't correct. My point is that the term is widely used throughout the world to refer to the Country just as there is a vernacular for the Republic of ChinaTraditional unionist 15:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

If you are referring to this edit, then I, personally, think it's quite puerile. I've warred over "Ireland vs. Republic of Ireland" on the "Ireland" side in the past, but when drawing parallels with Northern Ireland, and speaking in terms of the island, then it's obvious that "Republic of Ireland" is the clearest way of putting it. --sony-youth 16:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it was puerile if it was anywhere other than the intro. It's probably worth the clarification there.Traditional unionist 16:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The intro states "officially named Ireland", this is not the case, in UK law (Ireland Act 1949), the name of the state is "The Republic of Ireland", and therefore in NI it is officially called the Republic of Ireland Fasach Nua 10:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

At the time of the British-Irish Agreement (not part of the agreement itself) both governments agreed to use the official names by which each state describes itself (see here). If anyone knows where exactly they agreed this, I'd appreciate it. --sony-youth 11:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, it did contain some interesting information, but as you say it was an agreement between Govenments, the question would be how this agreement was implemented, was the Ireland Act 1949 ammended or revoked as a result. In theory the government should opperate within the law, not that I could imagine the UK govenment behaving dishonesty in its foreign relations! Fasach Nua 11:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"dishonestly in its foreign relations" - ah, but RoI is "not a foreign country" under the 1949 act :) --sony-youth 11:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed the un-needed (possibly contraversial) info. It's covered at Ireland and Republic of Ireland (as it should be). Let's avoid the potential for political fighting, shall we? GoodDay 20:57, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The cure was worse than the disease. So I've removed the sentence completely as it doesn't need to be in the intro and it certainly can't be expressed in a ten words or less sentence. --Red King 22:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

"Partition of Ireland, partition of Ulster"

Before I changed it (possibly for the worse!), the last sentence of Northern Ireland#Partition of Ireland, partition of Ulster said The Council of Ireland provided for in the 1920 Act, and in the Treaty, to link Northern Ireland eventually to the Irish Free State within 50 years was removed. Does anybody know what this is supposed to mean. The Council of Ireland article doesn't mention it. I've tried to rephrase it and put a fact tag on it. --Red King 22:34, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

The Council of Ireland article does mention it, but it applied to "Southern Ireland - Northern Ireland" not to "Irish Free State - Northern Ireland." A rewrite would be: "The Council of Ireland provided for in the Government of Ireland Act 1920 was intended to rejoin Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland under a single parliament within a 50-year period. However, events in the south over took this provision, and many others, from the 1920 act, so that with the Anglo-Irish Treaty, and the establishment of the Irish Free State, the Council of Ireland was non-operational and no formal structures existed to facilitate future Irish unity." --sony-youth 15:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Presumably the Government of Ireland Act 1920 been repealed then? What replaced it? (anything before 1948?) I see for example at Boundary Commission (Ireland)#Dáil Debates on the Commission, 7 - 10 December 1925 a complaint from Professor Megennis that the clause hadn't been referred to in the agreement. This would have just been 'comfort wording' if the provsion remained in British Statutes. It was certainly my impression that there was some talk during the time of the Belfast Agreement that the Council of Ireland should meet (and David Trimble called for a counter-balancing "Council of the Isles". --Red King 20:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

From recollection the "Council of Ireland" was the title of the All-Ireland body in the Sunningdale Agreement, which some attribute as one of the main reasons for the Agreement's ultimate downfall (and also Gerry Fitt says it was the SDLP's insistence on it that made the party a nationalist party not a socialist party). Was this a new body explicitly legislated for or was it the 1920 body finally being activated under legislation that was never repealed? Timrollpickering 20:44, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The Black North

Is this a spoof? I've heard of the industrial north of England as "the Black North", but not NI. Just because somebody may have used it in jest a couple of times doesn't make it widely accepted. I've also heard the expression "the frozen north", but wouldn't dream of listing it. I don't think this one deserves a citation tag. If no-one objects in the next 7 days, I'll delete it. --Red King (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought it was used to describe the high proportion of our protestant brothers in the north.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Royal Black Preceptory = the most anti-Irish/Catholic of the anti-Irish/Catholic organisations; the Orange Order are Catholic communists compared to them. Hence the use of the word Black as in Black North and Black Bastard while not nice, is most likely not unwelcome to members of that institution. 213.202.184.252 (talk) 04:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Citizenship

The annon may well have a point. Question number one before I go on, is citizenship registered on a birth certificate?Traditional unionist (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No it isn't, it just gives details of parents, place and date of birth.--Padraig (talk) 21:38, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Well then logically, one would have to renounce British citizenship if born in Northern Ireland and the birth was registered in Northern Ireland. Perhaps people don't know this and and are carrying duel nationality without knowing, but as I recall, the Northern Ireland Act didn't amend the Nationality Act.Traditional unionist (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect I was born in Northern Ireland and hold an Irish Passport an I am a Irish citizen, I never had or was I required to renounce anything.--Padraig (talk) 22:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

WHich could mean you're a duel British and Irish citizen and don't know.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

No it dosen't the GFA makes it clear that you can adopt either British, Irish or Duel citizenship, the choice is up to the individual.--Padraig (talk) 23:12, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

1st, im willing to bet you were born before 1998, 2nd I don't recall the NI Act amending the Nationality Act, which it would need to to make effect to that section of the agreement to become law.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:16, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I was born a long time before 1998 :), its immaterial what the Nationality Act says or not the GFA is a binding agreement :::::::::::between the two governments, the political parties of Northern Ireland and its population.--Padraig (talk) 23:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually it doesn't matter diddly squat wat the belfast agreement says. If it's not in the Northern Ireland Act of 1998, it's not law therefore it doesn't exist. The agreement was a legal framework that the Northern Ireland Act and the referendum in the Republic put legal power into.Traditional unionist (talk) 23:33, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

The election in the north and the referendum in the south was based on the content of the GFA, that is what people voted for, we can't now decide to ignore the parts that one side or the other don't particulary like, its the whole package or none.--Padraig (talk) 23:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not the politial system we live under. Parliament is soverignb, not the people. If its not law, its not so.Traditional unionist (talk) 02:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Traditional unionist is correct the GFA is not binding, only the legislation used to implement it is. Sinn Féin took some government body to court on the ground of breach of GFA, but the judge through it out, as it is not a legal document (does anyone have a ref for this). Citizenship is ill defined in the UK, there was a discussion at Talk:Ruairí_Ó_Brádaigh regarding RoI citizenship for NI born people, which is an opt in system. (could someone post the edit that started this thred) Fasach Nua (talk) 13:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I must say this is something that has always bothered me. Born in the UK you must have British citizenship from birth and have a right to RoI citizenship. But the British one comes automatically, the RoI one is optional. Normal citizenship laws still must apply. People born in NI should technically be British citizens whether they like it or know it or not. Many probably don't apply for a passport, or do anything that requires citizenship identification but they must surely be British citizens in the eyes of the law plus whatever they choose on top. A baby cannot choose their citizenship. I know people say otherwise but I cannot see how it can possibly technically be otherwise, even if it isn't technically enforced. Ben W Bell talk 14:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Not so, on any census form you have the option of giving your nationality as British or Irish etc, there is no automatic adoption of Britishness at birth, that maybe the case in the rest of UK, but not Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 14:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

There are more than just people born in NI who live in NI! The only definitive proof would be the Nationality Act mentioned above, I have never seen it never mind read it, so I dont know what the situation is, having EU citizenship makes the thing redundant in most instances, so I have never seen the need to investigate. Fasach Nua (talk) 14:23, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If two Polish people have a child in Northern Ireland, do you say it is automatically British, with an option to be Polish? Someone needs to look at the act! Fasach Nua (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If they're just Polish citizens, child will be British if one parent is a "permanent resident" (which means 5 years U.K. residence, for EEA member state citizens). Otherwise child can be registered as British once parents reach 5 year mark. Interestingly, child would be Irish if parents had lived in Northern Ireland (or ROI) for at least 3 years, but unlike in the U.K. there is no way to get Irish citizenship for the child if parents reach the 3 yr residence mark after child is born. JAJ (talk) 04:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

this is excellent on the subject.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Published by the Reform Movement in Dublin. Seems pretty clear to me. Born before 1983 in NI you are British. Ben W Bell talk 15:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I was born after 1983 in NI, and trust me, I never opted into British citizenship. Padraig, strange request, but it might be helpful if you called the Home Office and asked to renounce your British citizenship, see what they say!Traditional unionist (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

very informative, thankyou TU Fasach Nua (talk) 16:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Why would I have to renounce something I never was to begin with, I was Born in Ireland and hold and Irish passport.--Padraig (talk) 16:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Some things are worth doing just for the craic :=D Fasach Nua (talk) 16:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

As the source says, if you were born in Northern Ireland before 1983, you're a British citizen regardless of your knowledge or usage of that fact.Traditional unionist (talk) 16:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The source also says If you are a British citizen or subject and don't want to be, what can you do?

You can either ignore the fact, and just use your Irish citizenship, or you can formally renounce British nationality at the British Embassy. Very few people do this.

So although you may believe we are all British, I don't.--Padraig (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that says that you are a British citizen, but choose to ignore that fact. You are still a British citizen all the same though. WHich leads me back to the origional point, the annon is substantivly right, if not in the detail.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you post the a link to the post that started this thread please? On a seperate issue, as much fun as this discussion is, this page is about discussing the article, and how to improve it, can we keep it on topic? Fasach Nua (talk) 17:12, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

TU, a large minority of the population of Northern Ireland do not and never have regarded themselves as British, they are Irish, and no matter what the Unionists or British say that is the way it is. The Irish government accepts them as Irish citizens and give them the right to hold an Irish passport.--Padraig (talk) 17:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The second part of your statement is not in question. But the law is the law regardless of what people believe, think or want. The fact is that you and everyone born in NI is a British citizen until this is renounced, as the annon pointed out. Ignoring this is perfectly acceptable, but does not alter the fact of the matter.Traditional unionist (talk) 17:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

My wife and I are citizens of one country, but our son was born in a different country. Our son is automatically a citizen of my home country — by law of that country. He is obviously also a citizen of the country he was born in. Interestingly, neither country actually recognizes the concept of "dual citizenship", but he has that status regardless. From each of those countries' perspective, either you are a citizen or you are not. They don't care if you hold additional passports, and don't make you renounce or surrender them. He may never actually even set foot in my home country in his life, and yet, he will be a citizen of that country all his life! This little anecdote may be irrelevant to this conversation, but from what I read, the concept of people born in N.I. automatically having UK citizenship, whether or not they want it and whether or not they actually get a UK passport someday, sounds perfectly legitimate to me. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

They also have Irish citizenship as well, a fact recognised in the GFA.--18:38, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

No, they don't. They are entitled to apply for it, but they don't automatically get it. Ben W Bell talk 21:53, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If they want it. I'm entitled to it,but don't have it. You are in a different boat, you can renounce British citizenship if you want, but are by birthright a British citizen.Traditional unionist (talk) 18:57, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

If someone born in NI wishes to be a citizen of the republic of Ireland, then they can choose to take this citizenship, it is not automatically thrust apon them (Michael McGimpsey learnt this the hard way).

The GFA is irrelevant, it is as binding as a political parties election manifesto, but even if it was it gives people the right to define themselves as Irish, British or both British and Irish, how an individual defines themselves does not mean that is how the state legally defines them. Fasach Nua (talk) 19:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

this is the diff in question. I think we have found that the annon is in fact correct.Traditional unionist (talk) 21:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, the anon mentions the home office, but the reference you gave said to renounce citizenship at an embassy, which would seem to suggest this was in the remit of the Foreign and commonwealth office, but the rest seems correct Fasach Nua (talk) 21:39, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose the difference would be someone resident in the UK (ie Northern Ireland) and someone living abroad (ie the Republic)Traditional unionist (talk) 21:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

British citizenship (including renunciation) is the responsibility of the Home Office. Applications for renunciation from a person in Northern Ireland would be made direct to the HO, outside the UK (eg ROI) would be sent to the British Embassy for forwarding to the Home Office. JAJ (talk) 09:48, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course if you choose to ignore the fact you have British citizenship that's perfectly fine. For most people this will be enough, and no one will ever bother about it. However the one time it could be an issue is if in the incredibly unlikely event that the UK introduced conscription, if you hadn't renounced the citizenship whether you acknowledge it or not you'd be eligible for the draft. Just ignoring the laws of the country you were born in won't protect you in that case, hideously unlikely as it is to occur. Ben W Bell talk 21:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

The edit is more or less correct. It should be expanded by explaining that anyone born in Northern Ireland is by default an Irish citizen (ref). If they wish to renounce their Irish citizenship, they may do so by applying in writing to the Minister for Foreign Affairs (ref). Some common-sense restrictions on renouncing Irish citizenship apply. The restrictions on jus soli described in the text for Irish citizenship similarly apply for British citizenship. The common-sense restrictions on renouncing Irish citizenships also apply for renouncing British citizenship.

(Ben, we've already been through the conscription debate on this island. If it didn't happen 1914-18 or 1939-45 then it's never going to happen.) --sony-youth 23:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Citizenship General Information from sony-youth link above.

Article 2 of the Irish Constitution says:

“Every person born in the island of Ireland, its islands and its seas, has an entitlement and birthright to be part of the Irish nation”. That entitlement and birthright translates, in terms of citizenship laws, into an entitlement to be an Irish citizen2.

Every person born in the island of Ireland 3 is entitled to be an Irish citizen. If you were born anywhere in Ireland, it is open to you to choose to exercise that entitlement.

If you, as a person born in the island of Ireland do an act which only an Irish citizen is entitled to do (for instance, applying for an Irish passport), the law regards that as an exercise of your entitlement to be an Irish citizen, and you are accordingly an Irish citizen from birth. This also applies to persons not yet of full age (i.e. those still under 18 and not married) on whose behalf such an act is done.

If you were born in Ireland, the mere fact that you have not done (or if under age have not had done on your behalf) such an act does not on its own mean that you are not an Irish citizen. Nor does it mean that you are presumed to be a citizen of another country. --Padraig (talk) 00:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

From the same document

I was born and am living in Northern Ireland. I don’t hold any passport. Am I an Irish citizen?

You are if you want to be. As a person born in the island of Ireland, you have an entitlement to be an Irish citizen. You don’t have to obtain an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen (though having an Irish passport is of course a convenient way of showing that you are an Irish citizen).

I was born and am living in Northern Ireland. I hold a UK passport. Am I an Irish citizen?

You are if you want to be. As a person born in the island of Ireland, you have an entitlement to be an Irish citizen. That entitlement holds even if you have obtained a UK passport. You don’t have to obtain an Irish passport in order to be an Irish citizen (though having an Irish passport is of course a convenient way of showing that you are an Irish citizen). As far as Irish law is concerned, there is no difficulty about holding Irish citizenship and at the same time citizenship of another State such as the United Kingdom.--Padraig (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Those quotations are badly worded, but don't reveal anything particularly new, we seem to have arrived at what the situation actually is.Traditional unionist (talk) 00:14, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The Quotations are taken from the Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service, leaflet, so that you think its badly worded is neither nor there, it is clear that anyone in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish Citizenship.--Padraig (talk) 00:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes - that everybody born in Northern Ireland is an Irish citizen in exactly the same way as a person born in the Republic unless they renounce it (that includes you, Trad.). And that everybody born in Northern Ireland is a British citizen in exactly the same way as a person born on Great Britain unless they renounce it (that includes you, Padraig). --sony-youth 00:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

7-1 would suggest otherwise Fasach Nua (talk) 00:36, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no evidence, but strongly suspect that has since been amended,Traditional unionist (talk) 00:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I already hold a Irish Passport, and have done for a long time.--Padraig (talk) 00:42, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Which isn't the point. The point is that you are presently, and have been since birth, legally a British citizen.Traditional unionist (talk) 00:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Padraig, I mean renounce your British citizenship otherwise you are still a British citizen in exactly the same way as a person born on Great Britain - or just ignore it as it makes no difference. (Just as Trad would have to renounce his Irish citizenship or still be an Irish citizen in exactly the same way as a person born in the Republic - or just ignore it as it makes no difference.) --sony-youth 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I reckon the only difference is that Padraig has been a British citizen from birth, while I have been an Irish citizen from 1998. Which is a stupid way to run your citizenship laws (even after the amending referendum), but thats neither here nor there.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

TU that predates 1998, I think it dates to the Adoption of the Irish Constitution in the south, actually my brother-inlaw is a staunch Unionist, born in Belfast and he holds a Irish Passport.--Padraig (talk) 01:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course he does, its daft not to hold all passports you're entitled to regardless of how stupid the rules are in whatever jurisdiction. Anyway, the above source indicates it doesn't predate 1998.Traditional unionist (talk) 01:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to add he dosen't hold a British passport, and the information I posted above comes from Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2001 which updates the previous act.--Padraig (talk) 01:47, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be under the delusion that holding Irish citizenship precludes you from holding any other nationality. The references you are using to refer to Irish citizenship only. It does not affect the application of any other citizenship. The fact is that practically everyone in NI holds dual British/Irish citizenship. The only ones that don't are the ones that have renounce one or the other. josh (talk) 02:27, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Which is what the GFA states that anyone born in Northern Ireland can hold either British, Irish or duel citizenship, it is apersonal choice.--Padraig (talk) 02:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is a personal choice, but you are still legally a British citizen until you exercise your personal choice formally and renounce it. You can happily decide I'm not a British citizen, or I'm not an Irish citizen and that is your choice and up to you, but legally you still will be unless you formally renounce it. It's not an issue, not likely to be an issue, and holds practically no consequence whether you do or not, but on the papers of the legal states you are still that citizen until you say otherwise. I can only see a couple of real advantages to holding a British passport over an Irish one (or as well), and that's mainly evacuation should you find yourself in a warzone, the UK has more capacity to airlift or sealift its citizens out of there (see Lebanon or the like), but the chances of that are slim anyway. You can self identify as whatever you want, no one can take that away from you.Ben W Bell talk 14:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You never know Ben. It's always best to hold all passports you're entitled to just in case. A friend of mine holds 3.Traditional unionist (talk) 15:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes. I'm entitled to four different ones, though currently only have 1. Never seen a great reason to have one other than my British one. I'm not above applying for one if I think I'll get into a situation where I think it would be useful though. Am working towards entitlement of a fifth one as we speak as well, one I will apply for. Ben W Bell talk 19:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Which means that everyone in NI is a duel citizen until they choose renounce to either Irish or British citizenship. josh (talk) 03:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, like I keep saying, the Belfast Agreement is not a binding legal document. If the law wasn't changed it's not binding.Traditional unionist (talk) 12:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Duel citizenship" - Freud would have a field-day. I've collected the relvants acts from the Dublin side: Constitution of the Irish Free State Act 1922, Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1935, 1956, 2001 (1986, 1994 are irrevelant from our persepctive).

First for jus soli:

• The post-2001 scenario seems to be that everyone has dual citizenship and can renounce one or the other if they wish, and that this is retrospective as far back as Fionn mac Cumhaill but with Irish citizenship "from birth" being only for those born post-2001. Those born pre-2001 are "entitled to be an Irish citizen" without the "presumption that the person is not an Irish citizen" until they do "any act which only an Irish citizen is entitled to do" whereupon they become an Irish citizen "from birth" (relevant sections of the 2001 act are here).
• Before then, from Fasach's 1956 ref above, a person born in the six counties after independence had the option on Irish citizenship only upon making a declaration (relevant section is here).
• From 1935 to 1956, a person born in the six counties after independence was not an Irish citizens by jus soli. However, for one month after independence, Northern Ireland was a part of the Irish Free State. Those born in Northern Ireland during that time were born in part of the Free State and thus jus soli applies to them (relevant section of the 1935 act is here).
• Anybody who was alive and residing in Ireland (including Northern Ireland) at independence is/was an Irish citizen. From independence to 1935 these were the only people, north or south, who were Irish citizens as no other citizenship law except for the Free State constitution existed (see article 3 here).

Now for descent:

This is a bit mad ... Since everyone living in Northern Ireland at the turn of 1922/23 was in law an Irish citizen (see article 3 here), presumably this would have had a knock on effect for their children - and their children's children - under the 1935, 1956, 1986, 1994 and 2001 acts.

The 1935 act explicitly lists registering a birth at with the Northern Ireland births register as all that was necessary to be a "natural-born citizens of Saorstát Eireann" if a person was born to a father who is an Irish citizen. Since virtually every male in Northern Ireland who was over 12 years of age in 1935 was an Irish citizen owing to the Free State constitution and that month in 1922/23, that would make basically everyone in Northern Ireland born between post-independence an Irish citizen under the 1935 act by reason of descent. This would have a knock on effect for the 1958 act ("Every person is an Irish citizen if his father or mother was an Irish citizen at the time of that person's birth ...", from here) and subsequent acts. The Irish nationality law article says that the 1986 act put a limit on citizenship by descent, capping it at four generations from jus soli but I can't see where in the act. --sony-youth 17:24, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"Some" again

Which NI sports teams do not use the UB? I feel sure we have discussed this before, but what the hell, bandwidth is free...--John (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not believe there are any teams that represent Northern Ireland exclusively that do not use the Ulster Banner. There are several all-Ireland teams that use alternate flags (rugby, cricket, field hockey, etc.) Therefore, I think the confusion about the word "some" depends on how you read that disclaimer in the infobox. Only "some" sports involving Northern Ireland athletes use the Ulster Banner. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 01:28, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

But as far as I know too, all teams representing Northern Ireland (the subject of the article) do, so in the context of the flag note, having 'some' seems wrong. --John (talk) 03:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John in cases of say for example Snooker tourments where you may have a number from Northern Ireland players playing but not as a team but individual competitors playing against each other and players from other countries. That is why some sports is used in the text, there are other sports that play as a team that don't use the UB--Padraig (talk) 05:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That's understood. I don't know much about snooker; is there a Northern Ireland team that plays other countries' teams, like in football? If there was, and it (verifiably) didn't use the UB then I could go with the wording we have. --John (talk) 06:30, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of flags in sport in Northern Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 14:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

John is owned!--Vintagekits (talk) 15:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delisted good articles
• Old requests for peer review
• B-Class Northern Ireland-related articles
• Top-importance Northern Ireland-related articles
• All WikiProject Northern Ireland pages
• B-Class UK geography articles
• Top-importance UK geography articles
• Unassessed United Kingdom articles
• Unknown-importance United Kingdom articles
• WikiProject United Kingdom articles
• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Misplaced Pages pages referenced by the press