Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 06:13, 11 January 2008

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

Hate me

Let the damn thing run, put it in watchlists, and stop fighting already. You can all hate me after instead of each other. Lawrence Cohen 03:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As I noted on your talk page - "Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, not giving people a chance to discuss is bad, you've missed the point of the ArbCom which is to prevent similar issues from happening in future and you can't sum up everyone's feelings about both allowing rollback and/or the process itself into a few neat headings. I can't help but think this is a terrible idea and fundamentally goes against the "wiki" in Misplaced Pages and the idea of consensus.". Misplaced Pages is not about binding votes and process like this, and this isn't going to do anything but muddy the waters further. -Halo (talk) 03:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, by "I support non-admin rollback being implemented, automatically like pagemoves with no process" do you mean giving it to everyone in the "normal" usergroup automatically? And what if you agree to rollback without process but not with - will it get "lumped in" to some other policy based on your support for rollback in general? -Halo (talk) 03:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yay! Misplaced Pages is a democracy! :-) (Oh, hang on...) Carcharoth (talk) 03:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Headings

It seems the options are becoming a bit muddled. What about if we refactor this? Sections something like this...

• Non-admin rollback should be implemented

• Support
• Oppose

• If implemented, non-admin rollback should be given out by community process (human decision)

• Support
• Oppose

• If implemented, non-admin rollback should be given out automatically (time-based)

• Support
• Oppose

Something like that. Allows for a little more leeway, I think. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately not. Because I oppose it's implementation unless it is automatic. So how do I vote?--Doc 03:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You could create a new section for that, or oppose all other proposals, I suppose. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

A 6-way poll? Surely there must be a better way than *more* complicated up-to-interpretation polling :s -Halo (talk) 03:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

If anything, that seems less ambiguous, to me; it allows us to separate the issues of whether to turn it on, and how to turn it on, if we do. Doc's objection in particular seems to apply just as much to the current poll model. – Luna Santin (talk) 03:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(EC)Thats why i BOLDly changed the heading, i assumed that people would want an option to have the roll-back tool remain Admin only, which i figured was what the last section was. Perhaps this would be better...

• Non-admin rollback should be implemented

• Support
• Oppose
• If implemented, non-admin rollback should be given out by community process (human decision)

• Support
• Oppose

• If implemented, non-admin rollback should be given out automatically (time-based)

• Support
• Oppose

• Non-admin rollback should not be implemented

• Support
• Oppose

--Jac16888 (talk) 03:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it just me or are the number of sections that people are voting in growing by the minute? I thought the purpose of this page was to be a straight forward simple vote, that is basicly yes or no. So I was wondering what the section about wikilove, and the section about supporting all opinions have to do with the current vote, and if they are really nesseccary. --Nn123645 (talk) 05:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Proportional Representation?

Just a question: we've already got people putting in first and second choices; how on earth is anyone going to disentangle the will of the community here? --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 03:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Only Misplaced Pages can mess up a simple vote count with strict rules. -Halo (talk) 03:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That was why i made the suggestion i did above. although it would be better to simplify, i.e. either A) Give the tool, or B) don't give the tool, then do another vote (i know, so much democracy is shocking) over the logistics when/if the tool is given--Jac16888 (talk) 03:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be using approval voting. —Ashley Y 03:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose if it's good enough to elect ArbCom, it should be good enough here. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 04:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Straight vote, arbs ratify, go write a FA. Lawrence Cohen 03:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Watchlist

Please put this on watchlist. Lawrence Cohen 03:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have added a notice. Please feel free to revert if necessary. Nakon 04:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I oppose a notice. We've thousands of editors and many will not have a clue what this is about. If we are going to invite them to comment, in such a visible way, we really need to have more of an explanation/introduction first. Unfortunately, the poll will collapse as we didn't bother to agree wat we were doing before we began.--Doc 04:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Surely we should have a few days grace to decide at least what we want to vote on and the method involved to vote on that? Ryan Postlethwaite 04:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Stays or goes, and if it goes does everyone just get it, or do we use the process, which is good enough to start. It's fine as is. No more damn beurocracy. Lawrence Cohen 04:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We need a notice. Everyone grumbled the poll was "secret", so just put it out. Lawrence Cohen 04:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone can put up a brief notice header of what it is. Lawrence Cohen 04:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone very neutral???? Please.--Doc 04:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Huh? I just added a short terse explanation. Lawrence Cohen 04:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Not everything needs ten layers of formality and debate. Just get done what needs doing, already. Discussion is great, but drowning in it for the sake of talk is frankly stupid. Lawrence Cohen 04:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

In an ideal world the voters would know exactly what they were voting for, with pros and cons of each proposal - many users are going to come here not having a clue (and that could effect the poll in many different ways). Ryan Postlethwaite 04:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What pros and cons? It's a stupid revert button. I already had like 10 from Twinkle. We can hash out how people lose it later if the vote keeps going as it is under process. If the vote turns around and everyone loses it, thats it. At least then we can stop dicking around with backend shit and write articles again, which is why we're here. Lawrence Cohen 04:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I am feeling especially un-informed today (sorry). Presently, non-admin editors with no tools simply click on a prior version they like, for "edit," then save that (two clicks). An edit summary for why you did that, is polite, but for vandalism, "RVV" works fine (three strokes). Is this debate about one click?? or have I missed something really important? What nefarious fixit stuff do you admins HAVE? SBHarris 04:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yep, this whole big thing, boils down to being about one click, in a nutshell. SQL 05:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

lol, the irony. --Nn123645 (talk) 05:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps its me (this debate may have resulted in paranoia) but this argument of "it's just a darn button" seems to overwhelmingly come from the same folks that want it to be bureaucratically given. Seems a double standard. If this "boils down to being about one click", may I ask User:SQL why you want to make sure we have an admins approval to use it? Surely a person can do far more damage with the "edit this page" button than "rollback"... and yet, even anonymous IP's have that. Justin 05:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We sure do. Two clicks and three strokes. Sounds like my first experience with sex ;) Okay, I'll let you guys go back to your important debate. SBHarris 05:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What have pagemoves got to do with this?

In the first section on this page, editor Halo asked much the same question I came to ask.

I don't see an answer so I will ask it again:

By "I support non-admin rollback being implemented, automatically like pagemoves with no process" do you mean giving it to everyone in the "normal" usergroup automatically?

For someone who has no idea how pagemoves were inmplemented, this wording is very unclear. Wanderer57 (talk) 05:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

PS Is that comma supposed to be in after "implemented"?

User accounts cannot move pages until they have been registered for at least four days. The same goes for editing of semi-protected pages. Rollback would be automatically given out only to accounts more than four days old to avoid abuse in the same way that semi-protection reduces vandalism – Gurch 05:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I support options A and B, A and C, or A and B and C

What's the point of this? Wouldn't it make more sense to just sign any ones that you agree with? - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, no offence Random, but its pretty stupid. You make it sound like you're looking or a cabal with that description. I would assume that the arbcom are intelligent to realise that people supporting either variation of having non-admin rollback, are in fact supporting it in general. I think it should be removed--Jac16888 (talk) 05:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Someone vandalised my header. I SPECIFICALLY stated "A and B". —Random832 05:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yea, well people keep changing the headers. I recommend re-voting in the appropriate section and not changing them back, just avoid another discussion, cause next we will be discussing the headings. Tiptoety 05:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, once this is over people will complain, and then it will happen again, and the process will probably be just as flawed as this time. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Did people complain after the main page vote and the 3rr vote were ended? I mean, just looking at it logically, if you have 1000 people involved, and all our voices carry weight, sometimes you need to just cut through all the bureaucratic crap, and the endless discussion where things just need to get done, and do something. If not, nothing truly major will ever get done unless something or someone comes down from on high to say, "This is this," which goes completely against the wiki-way of everyone getting to chime in with their thoughts. Sometimes you need to tell people to just chime in without a lot of extra crap, to actually move forward. Lawrence Cohen 05:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but will that ever happen? No. Tiptoety 05:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree too, but here, there has already been too much "crap". - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Changing titles after voting has begun

I've now removed my signature since for some odd reason, people feel the need to change titles, add options, etc. This should have all happened before the voting began, obviously. So much for making things right this time around. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Although the header changed, this was the implied meaning - the status quo being that we continue as we have since it was impemented. Ryan Postlethwaite 05:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That was not the only change.... There have been several, right? Many/most of which have been changed back. - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup, I understand these concerns, not sure what we can do now though (I had nothing to do with the header changes BTW). Ryan Postlethwaite 05:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Rjd0060, once you vote under one title, it should not be changed, it is almost like having people vote and then change what they are voting for. This should have been all done and decided upon before this process started. Though like you said, not much we can do now but keep the titles the same. Cheers, Tiptoety 05:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I know you had nothing to do with it. I was just expecting a straight forward process here, but I guess I was wrong (again). - Rjd0060 (talk) 05:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

At first, I read the title of the first option (with the comment "the current status quo" as implying that the rollback process we now have was implemented by a community decision (it wasn't, of course). LondonStatto (talk) 05:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

off topic question

I see the rollback link on histories, and user contribution pages now...did someone put me in the approved group with out telling me? I have not tested it, nor do I plan to use it at this time. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

ok, i tested it and appearantly I can rollback. how odd. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This vote is hopeless

Now that I know there are, in fact, people who are "opposed to rollback unless it's given automatically"; the situation is too complex for this kind of vote. We need to discard this and replace it with a system by which everyone can easily record their order of preference for the three possibilities. Maybe the Condorcet method? —Random832 05:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we have already tried that, and that is now why we are here. Tiptoety 05:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We don't need 18 votes, 25 polls, 37 pages of talk archives, an arbitration case, and someone calling Florida to demand satisfaction from the WMF secretary. We need to end this, let the people we elected call the election, and go write articles. Something like the painfully complex Condorcet system if stupided down so anyone can understand what they need to do on a mega-poll with ten seconds of reading would be good for next time, which hopefully isn't this year. Lawrence Cohen 05:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh sure... you point that out AFTER I got off the phone with Florida. Of course, this vote is entirely unbinding, as it violates the very premise of WP:CONS. I only voted to continue Doc's cool "--" preceding his signature. What is this poll going to teach us? That the overwhelming majority of people that read WP:ARBCOM requests about rollback are interested in it being implemented. If anything, this poll is going to produce more problems. Those in group A may claim that since A and B comprise a vote to implement, and that the procedure explained in group A is already implemented, we should stick status quo. Those in group B will claim that since group A's procedure implementation was done without consensus, the results should be a consensus to implement, with no consensus to how. Those from group C are going to claim that because there was no consensus to implement, and there is no consensus on how to implement, we should retreat to the original, which was nobody has non-admin rollback. Finally, those in group D are going to be really ticked off, because all 5 of them are going to be forced to drink tea AND spread wikilove on the some 400 user talk pages of the rest of us that voted. Majority doesn't rule, a vote is not a substitute for a consensus, and monkey's at the zoo throw poop at tourists. These are the three golden rules of wikidom, so this has presented us with nothing more than another argument. Or more likely, another way to argue about the same thing. Justin 06:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Although couldn't one argue that the vote is just being used to judge consensus? Meaning if 500 people vote in support of something, and 1 person votes in opposition, there is a clear consensus for support. - Rjd0060 (talk) 06:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)