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Introduction to evolution

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I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has been through extensive peer review, and modification in the course of obtaining GA status. We believe it is now ready for careful consideration of FA status. Filll (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose References are formatted at best with troubling inconsistency. They, along with "further reading", need a thorough overhaul. Circeus (talk) 01:16, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Question How would you alter them to make them consistent?--Filll (talk) 05:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Re-formated titles of text to follow APA style in future reading section. Other than that, format seems to be consistent and accurate. All ISBN numbers were accurate as well as authors, dates and publishers. Ex. River of of eden. If this is incorrect please provide guidance. Thank you. --Random Replicator (talk) 05:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Question: This is the APA format for a single author text. Is this adequate? Should we include descriptors along with the citation as is done here?

Comment: I've spent the day applying the templates ... if it is wrong ... well at least it is consistently wrong .. thank you for your input. --Random Replicator (talk) 20:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent) Let's see... For basics, the isbn format breaks ISBN linking, external links should NEVER be formatted without text (there's a reason all usual Misplaced Pages web cites formats put the title there, people!), and if you're going to give full names in references, you might as well do the same in "further reading". Circeus (talk) 01:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment Templates applied - format problems should now be resolved --- thanks for sharing information on template for standardizing; made the task so much easier. --71.77.211.77 (talk) 18:11, 23 December 2007 (UTC)--Random Replicator (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Still unsatisfactory? --Random Replicator (talk) 14:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I will operate on the assumption that the template resolved the problem in the absence of any follow-up.--Random Replicator (talk) 03:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)--Random Replicator (talk) 03:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent) I truly want feedback on this concern since the lion's share of my efforts have been addressing it. No response since 12-22. It is now 1-10. I thought I could ask on talk page but there was a do not disturb statement at the top: If I commented on a Featured Content candidacy, I will be watching it. So I opted to wait for a commentary here. The do not disturb has since been replaced with a statement that their computer is broken. Can someone else who is keeping up with this FA attempt state whether Circeus concern is still valid before this page closes. I do want this issue to be corrected if it still falls short. --Random Replicator (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Object - Too many dot point sections, the examples section is entirely unreferenced. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:28, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Agreed and noted. The bulleted list, intended to simplify have been worked into text in response to your concerns. The number have been dramatically reduced; the few remaining; I think you will agree are necessary. Thank you for your suggestion. Give me a day and citations will be added to the Hardy-Weinberg. As currently revised; it is essentially common knowledge; but can and will be reinforced with citations. I am assuming my additions here are appropriate; if not please provide me with direction so that I do not violate protocol. --Random Replicator (talk) 04:55, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Cited Hardy-Weinberg Section. Essentially a section heavy with vocabulary terms which were referenced to the widely read text by Neil Campbell. The section reads better; although I hated to drop my hypothetical examples; which really needed a bulleted list to be retained. --Random Replicator (talk) 05:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)<

Both concerns have been addressed; are your concerns resolved?--Random Replicator (talk) 05:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) It might be best to ask here, which sections do you think should be put into prose and why? Which bulleted sections would be improved by being put into prose? Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I noticed you returned to strike out the unreferenced concerns but failed to follow-up on our questions about "dot points". All dot points were removed with the exception for the list of reproductive barriers. That marked a dramatic decrease in the use of list. Do you mean to say "too many" when you mean to say "they should not be any"? Please respond so that I may consider revision before time runs out.--Random Replicator (talk) 23:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose The article has many problems and is not ready for FA:
• Referencing is not FA standard. I see many unreferenced paragraphs:
  • No references in paragraphs 2, 4 and 5 of *"Darwin's idea: evolution by natural selection" section.
    • Paragraphs 2 and 4 are referenced from the first paragraph: Darwin's On the Origin of Species. DrKiernan (talk) 16:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • No references in paragraph 2 of "Vestigial structures" section.
  • No references in paragraph 2 of "Examples" section.
  • No references in paragraphs 1 and 2 of "Different perspectives on the mechanism of evolution" section.
  • No references in paragraph 1 of "Rate of change" section.
  • No references in paragraph 1 of "Unit of change" section.
• References 4, 5, 18, 19, 20, 24, 25, 26, 38 and 39 have formatting problems. Always put references after a comma or full stop with no space in between.
• The article is POV. Even if it's an introduction, it should still mention a little about the creationism debate.
• I see a few short paragraphs with only one or two sentences. The article is not well-written and needs a copy-edit, but I cannot help because my English is not very good.
• Improve the article and try GA first. --Kaypoh (talk) 06:46, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: I'm not sure if I agree with this advise as per your talk page "Now add a lot of references. FA standard referencing = almost one reference per sentence, all paragraphs must have references." The article has been peered reviewed to the point of nausea and has already reached GA status. I believe the format issues for consistency are being cleaned up. This line ... The article is POV. Even if it's an introduction, it should still mention a little about the creationism debate. I'm thinking this comment - will elicit a response from others on this page; which should make for some interesting reading. --Random Replicator (talk) 14:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment. The article is an Intro to Evolution and does not need to discuss alternate origin theories / suppositions. To suggest it is POV becaue it doesn't discuss creationism is like complaining that an article on the 'Baptist' church is POV because it doesn't mention a little about the 'Roman Catholic' church. The article does a good job as an 'overview' of an 'intro to evolution'. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit, I find the criticism that an introductory article on evolution does not discuss creationism a bit strange. First, it is an introduction, so it cannot go into detail about everything. Second, it is a science article, not about religion or politics. Third, there are links to creationist discussions in the summary, and some discussion of creationist points (for example Objections to evolution and misconceptions about evolution). Since this editor did not realize that the article was already a GA, it is clear that this editor has not read the article very carefully and realized that his complaint about creationism has already been addressed, and has not realized that the article is already a GA. Also, although I am a big fan of heavy use of citations and references, for an introductory article, this is probably inappropriate. For an introductory article, the article should be as accessible as possible, and having a huge number of citations and footnotes really does not make an article accessible, particularly for beginners. Remember, we are not aiming this at a professional audience, or an adult audience, but at a beginning high school level. --Filll (talk) 17:14, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Referencing has been dramatically increased; despite my better judgment and general agreement with Filll on the need in an Introductory article which links to the primary document that is heavily referenced. None-the-less, there are now nearly 50 sources referenced. May we now consider that concern resolved? I am in strong disagreement with the POV claim. Perhaps you could expand upon that concern on the discussion page. --Random Replicator (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)--Random Replicator (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

This creationism issue is a non-issue. The first question at the Talk:Evolution/FAQ, which I think is a good set of guidelines for this page as well, is "Why won't you add criticisms or objections to evolution in the Evolution article?". See that page for an excellent explanation that was obviously agreed upon by a previous consensus of evolution editors.

Kaypoh, try to explain why these paragraphs need citations - they don't need it for the sake of having citations - see Misplaced Pages:Scientific citation guidelines and WP:V. Also, point out what is not "well-written" so that the editors know what to improve (the editors obviously think it is well-written or they would not have submitted it). I might also mention that it is getting a little tiring to read "try GA first" in your reviews. Please check to see if articles already are GA - this comment makes it seem like you haven't carefully read the article. Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent)Citations and referencing has been dramatically increased which was in direct opposition to our mandate to increase readability. I did this to address this specific oppose. The number of references are approaching 70; nearly double the number when you opposed. A hope you will be responding to my efforts as time is surely running out.--Random Replicator (talk) 23:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I realize you have involved yourself in 54 other Featured Article Request since offering your insights on this one; so no doubt you are very busy. Such enthusiasm from a relatively new editor is appreciated. But perhaps you might spare the time to address your oppose as well as our attempts to resolve the concerns that you have raised?? Cheers!--Random Replicator (talk) 21:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support. Having read the article, it does seem to me to be comprehensive as an 'Introduction to Evolution' as the title states and is well referenced. It seem to follow Misplaced Pages:Scientific citation guidelines. Some small stylistic things: should the images alternate (right side, left side, right side)? And, the bullet points at 'Barriers that prevent fertilization' and 'Barriers acting after fertilization' should be changed to straight paragraph style. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:59, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

• My opinion: The bullets work here because this is a list of barriers and the list is easier to understand with the points. Why do you think it would be easier to understand in prose? Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I doubt it would be any easier to understand. It is why I support the article; it is a minor stylistic preference and is neither here nor there. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to the article. I think it is good. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support Comment: I haven't finished reading the article yet, but I have a few stylistic comments already
  • Is it necessary to have so many pictures in the introduction? I understand that pictures are appreciated by readers, but I don't think anyone will appreciate a glut of pictures so early on. The evolution page keeps it simple with just the template at the top, and my personal opinion is do the same thing here.
  • Regarding the template at the top, I notice it's different to the one on the evolution page - is that wise, considering changes to one aren't guaranteed to be applied to the other in the future.
  • This is just my opinion and not an objection, but I think all of the examples (and there are lots) need to be worked into the article a little better. For instance, in many cases a sentence starts with or includes "For example ..." (20 times by my count). Maybe it could be changed up a bit, alternatives like "that can be seen in the case of 'blah'" or something. It just feels awkward reading the same thing over and over. I think the lists at the end of the article should be turned into prose too.
  • For the same reasons given by Wassupwestcoast, I don't see why creationism needs to be mentioned in this article. Ben 16:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The heavy use of pictures in the article was planned. This article is meant for a very different audience than evolution. Evolution aims at an advanced undergraduate level (14 or 15 years of schooling). Introduction to evolution aims at someone who is a freshman or sophmore in high school (10 or 11 years of schooling). Look at a book for elementary school students, a book for junior high school students and a book for high school students and a book for college students. Which books have the most pictures? Obviously, the books meant for younger and less educated readers have more pictures and they are more prominent. So at least in my opinion, you are not understanding what an introduction actually is and is meant to be in this situation.--Filll (talk) 17:20, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oops, I wasn't questioning the number of pictures in the article, in fact I have no problem with that. I was concerned with so many pictures in the introduction to the article. Sorry for the confusion. Ben 17:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree, that the excessive use of the term example does not make for good prose. However, there is the advantage of consistency that organizes the data in a way that one unfamiliar with the concept may better understand. In my experience with high school text books; transitional words can not be subtle or the young reader will become confused. If your opposition to the consistency is not passionate; then I would rather leave the For example ... approach as it stands. However, it would be simple enough to convert to "that can be seen in the case of 'blah'" if need be. Thank you for your constructive criticism. --Random Replicator (talk) 18:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Removed "The Tree" that has been added and removed several times in regards to the concern over clutter. It has been very difficult to balance the pictures; again because of my experience with textbooks, with the more "stark" approach of Misplaced Pages. Hope the removal served to improve the general appearance. --Random Replicator (talk) 19:05, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit out many of the "For Examples" as suggested--Random Replicator (talk) 05:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There may be confusion here: "I don't see why creationism needs to be mentioned in this article.". The article does not mention creationism; we were addressing an oppose that stated that it should by Kaypoh. If you care to strike through the last one! --Random Replicator (talk) 23:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Are there other concerns? The list you provided seems to have been addressed.--Random Replicator (talk) 05:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment The statement evolution is supported by 99.9% of the scientific community is attributed to this NIH web page, but did the person quoted (Dr. Brian Alters) in the page literally mean 99.9%? Having read the context, I wonder about both the 99.9% figure and whether he meant it literally. Fg2 (talk) 11:23, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I agree. This statement of Alters should be in quotes. DrKiernan (talk) 16:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

We cannot know for sure what Brian Alters meant, but his statement is pretty accurate from all we can determine. Look at level of support for evolution, for example.--Filll (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

You should stick in a link to that. DrKiernan (talk) 16:32, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It used to be there, but I guess it was removed in all the revisions.--Filll (talk) 16:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose: there are unreferenced paragraphs. --Brískelly

The decision was made to minimize the number of references in the article to make it more accessible. We can of course put a huge number of references in the article, just as are found in evolution or intelligent design. However, this was viewed as inappropriate for an introductory article.--Filll (talk) 16:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I hope that FA director is aware of your random votes on a variety of articles in which you "vote" without any apparent awareness of the procedure or the actual articles themselves. A scan of the Featured Article page will find your name over and over with the same comment. There are over 50 citation in this article. Please understand that this is a serious process; where criticism are respected; however, they should be well founded.--Random Replicator (talk) 04:30, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please explain what you think needs to be referenced and why using the principles outlined in WP:V and Misplaced Pages:Scientific citation guidelines. Thanks. Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There are now nearly 70 references in an effort to address your specific concern. I am requesting that you specifically respond to these revision in citation numbers in order for me to determine if you are still in opposition and if possible, perhaps you could be more specific. Thanks for your input. --Random Replicator (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

(Undent) I realize it will be difficult to follow-up to each of the 50+ articles that you have reviewed since dropping in here; but I am certain that myself and likely the other writers of the 13 articles you critique, during a three hours time span, would appreciate a follow-up to determine if we have complied to your concerns sufficiently to remove that oppose, which has both inspired and frustrated the numerous editors on the numerous articles in which you have shared your vision of a FA worthy entry. I am sure that your comments are playing through the minds of those who take your words to heart; and recognize your good faith efforts to improve Misplaced Pages. Is there not a system in place to flag these things? (sigh)--Random Replicator (talk) 02:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comments "Darwin incorrectly deduced that heritable traits were a product of the environment" I'm not familiar with that: I think that is counter-intuitive for someone ignorant, and could do with a citation. "The theory of evolution is the foundation of nearly all research conducted in biology" seems rather over-blown. "This has been well documented in the orchid family." example please, or cite a review. DrKiernan (talk) 16:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment:Deleted the orchid comment... a million options I should have cited ... but frankly it seemed to be just hanging there with no real direction. Thank you.--Random Replicator (talk) 19:28, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your specific concerns --- I know Darwin had no explanation for the source of variations; I will dig farther to see how that morphed into his agreement on LaMarckism. Your specific concerns are appreciated and valued. General statements that it "needs more citations" contribute little when clearly the Introduction to Evolution Article has tons of citations (60 lines of referenced information). Frankly I would not cite the line: The earth orbits the sun. Some information in an encyclopedia is held to standard by "peer review" --- citing every line sounds like an over reaction to criticisms raised by "World Book" readers. It would make this entry cumbersome to read at best. --Random Replicator (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Response to concern:"It is even more interesting to note that, although Darwin tried to refute the Lamarckian mechanism of inheritance, he later admitted that the heritable effects of use and disuse might be important in evolution. In the Origin of Species he wrote that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection." I will add the required citation thank you. --Random Replicator (talk) 23:29, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Response "The theory of evolution serves as the foundation for much of the research conducted in biology, including molecular biology, paleontology, and taxonomy." Toned it down just a tad --- this is not over-blown; hopefully it still emphasizes the importance of evolutionary theory in biology.--Random Replicator (talk) 05:40, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

• Support My concerns are addressed. DrKiernan (talk) 22:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. Needs extensive copyediting and more citations. Kaldari (talk) 01:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

What copyediting do you propose? Also, as stated above, the reason that there are so few references is that this is an introductory article. Compared to Introduction to general relativity, which is an FA, we actually have a higher density of references.--Filll (talk) 02:18, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Same question --- "extensive copyediting" --- seriously? This entry has been in the making for over a year. It has been copy-edited by a group of very talented individuals with extensive knowledge in English grammar. I've had this thing analyzed by college professors. We deliberated over every word in it. If there are grammar /sentence structure errors then they are from recent edits. As to content. There is no way that information that is obviously incorrect would last 2 secs. on that subject. It is monitored constantly by a large number of informed, passionate people, who constantly need to address the misconceptions on Evolution. Mis-information is challenged before the ink dries. A general --- knee-jerk --- oppose that lacks specificity is somewhat perplexing. Is it the topic itself that is the source of such vague criticism?--Random Replicator (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Additional references have been added --- roughly 50 which is excessive for an introductory article --- again I ask, what copy-edits would you like me to address?--Random Replicator (talk)

Kaldari, my friend, you know better than that! :) Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Article has been significantly improved since my objection through copyediting and numerous source additions. Changing to Support. Kaldari (talk) 15:48, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comments
  • I'm not too fond of the "Summary" section. As it's written, it reads like one of those dreaded "In conclusion" paragraphs to a high school essay. First person plural should really never be used in encyclopedic prose (I saw this elsewhere in the article, too). "Evolution is one of the most successful scientific theories ever produced..." <-- Hagiographic sentence that serves really no purpose.
    • Since this is being written for high school students (primarily), the conclusion will be comfortingly familiar to them and will reinforce the major concepts of the article. I see nothing wrong with that.
    • Apparently "we" is acceptable in science articles (I saw this in the WP:MOS somewhere once).
    • I believe the hagiographic sentence is there to counterbalance the challenges made to evolution in the United States where a minority of the population accepts it. It is, therefore, sadly necessary. Awadewit | talk 01:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Like first person plural, second person should really be avoided in an encyclopedia article.
    • I agree - it is fixed. Awadewit | talk 01:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Please fix your inline referencing format per MOS. The ""s should go immediately after punctuation with no space (though there should be space after the ref). I saw various creative styles employed, including one where the ref was sandwiched between two periods.
  • "when the environment changes, most species fail to adapt" I don't think "most" is the best word here.
  • When citing books, please give the page number. 69.202.60.86 (talk) 21:57, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I get the credit for the in front / in back of the periods issue. I applied templates to all the citations; a rather extensive process and no doubt moved the original placements. A quick and painless fix --- as compared to actually verifying and applying template. Thank you. I will also address this problem "Hagiographic" as soon as I get a chance to look up the word and determine its meaning! Again, thank you for your detailed concerns which will lead to improvement.--Random Replicator (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I reviewed the Evolution entry and noticed that none of the textbooks include page numbers. It is featured. Was that an oversight on there part? Also; extinction is the norm when environmental changes occur; however, would "many" be in the direction that would elevate this concern?--Random Replicator (talk) 02:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it was an oversight or not, but I thought it was just common practice (not just on Wiki, but in academia) that when citing specific facts/quotations from a book, you give the page number where it's from. See the second paragraph of Misplaced Pages:Citing_sources#Say_where_you_got_it. "Many" probably wouldn't elevate my concern, but it might alleviate it. :) I also noticed that ref number 4 is missing the title of the work. Overall though, my biggest concern is the Summary section, and the use of first/second person in the article. 69.202.60.86 (talk) 14:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

"elevate" That is why they only let me watch and not actually type anything! That line has been revised per your suggestion. They did let me add the title "Biology" to the Campbell / Reese Text. Thanks--Random Replicator (talk) 14:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Finally got a chance to look up the word. Revisit the summary and see if the re-write addressed that concern by "toning down" a bit. Thanks.--Random Replicator (talk) 02:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• • Oppose; I had to fix a major factual error (Darwin rejected Lamarckism; this was part of his major leap in understanding, and yet the article incorrectly asserted that he embraced it, then sourced it to a source which specifically says he rejected it) and I'm sure there are others in there. Moreover, I went through and removed half a dozen "in fact" and "in reality"s, and the article's overall prose is just not up to snuff. Titanium Dragon (talk) 05:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

It is even more interesting to note that, although Darwin tried to refute the Lamarckian mechanism of inheritance, he later admitted that the heritable effects of use and disuse might be important in evolution. In the Origin of Species he wrote that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are "probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection."This is the source --- are we reading the same thing?--Random Replicator (talk) 05:44, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually there were 3 In facts and 1 In reality which = 4. Where 1/2 dozen = 6. But who is counting. If that was your concern ... then you yourself fixed them --- so why is that a problem to list here? I'm not sure I understand this process. You identified a problem ... fixed it ... then declare it a problem after the fact. "I'm sure there are others in there"... I not sure how to respond to that as a concern?--Random Replicator (talk) 06:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The revision has introduced a new unsourced error. Darwin clearly accepted "use and disuse heritability", as refd. Desmond, A. & Moore, J. (1991) Darwin Penguin Books p.617 "Darwin was loathe to let go of the notion that a well-used and strengthened organ could be inherited" He didn't agree with Lamarck's ideas of "besoin" for change and of progressive improvements, but his Pangenesis theory was an unsuccessful attempt to provide a mechanism for inheritance of variations, including acquired characteristics. After Darwin's death August Weismann proposed the "Weismann barrier" in opposition to what was then called neo-Lamarckism. .. dave souza, talk 13:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that's the correct statement that Darwin accepted as fact the idea that heritable traits were a product of use and disuse reintroduced with three new references, and the paragraph revised to make the point clearer. .. dave souza, talk 21:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment My objection on factual accuracy has been more or less met; I think their reading of the section is most likely correct and mine wrong. However, my oppose remains, mostly on the grounds of it just not being as well-written as I think a FA should be (overall quality of prose). Titanium Dragon (talk) 08:19, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

• Could you give some specific examples of this? I have just copy edited the article today and while I don't think the article is poetic, I do think it is as clearly written as these things can be. However, if you have suggestions for improvement, I know that the editors would welcome them. Saying that the writing just isn't as good as other FAs isn't particularly helpful - how can the editors fix that? Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(undent) I noticed that you checked off your concerns on Talk, both the factual concern and concern that it is not well written; yet the oppose remains. Were there other concerns or does this still stand on the more general opinion of it being short of FA standard?--Random Replicator (talk) 02:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support, it provides a good introduction to a complex concept which is prone to misunderstandings. .. dave souza, talk 13:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: The mission statement for this article was to serve as a transition between the simple Misplaced Pages and the Main article on Evolution. It would be easy to riddle the text with PMID references as primary sources; which are easy to cite and format. However, we opted for more laymen secondary sources such as National Geographic and PBS websites. They are beastly to cite and thus do not make for a nice clean reference section as appears in the Evolution article. However, in my opinion they serve the reader much more than an abstract from a complex journal. The article is heavily cited; with the exception of the summary, which is a restatement of the prior (cited) material. --Random Replicator (talk) 15:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• I think of it as the planetary model of the atom-evolution page. :) Awadewit | talk 01:11, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - Titanium Dragon is wrong to say that there is an error about Lamarckism, and it is unfair to suggest with no evidence that he/she is "sure there are many other" errors. In fact the article correctly asserts that Darwin (in effect) embraced Lamarckism. See the article's talk page and recent edits (including references) to the article! So where are these other errors? In the absence of evidence, I wonder if Titanium Dragon would care to withdraw this point? Snalwibma (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment on references. I am somewhat disappointed to see so many people's knee-jerk "not enough references for FA status" remarks above. It seems to me that it is entirely appropriate for an introductory article to contain only a small number of references. It is meant to be easy to read and accessible, and references get in the way of this, making it appear undigestible and hard work. What is wrong with keeping the references to a minimum, and instead relying on links to other WP articles, where the reader can find both more detail and as many references as he/she wants? Snalwibma (talk) 23:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

• Temporary Oppose - The references annoy me. I personally think books make lousy reference sources, unless there's a good quote to be used. Almost everything written in a textbook or other scholarly books is a review, so the original source is EASILY found. I don't like inconsistent referencing either. I'll help out. I'm anal about references. OrangeMarlin 02:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

But this is an introductory article, and it is much better to send the reader of such an article to a good textbook review rather than to some arcane original research in a journal. Just a thought. Snalwibma (talk) 09:41, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

My only problem with the use of the textbooks is that they are not online accessable. I would rather have used only sources that can be access with a direct link. My beef with the Evolution ref. is that it is almost exclusively journals which cannot be accessed without memberships. At best you get an abstract. This gave the article credibility and made for a clean, confident look; but provides little in the way of additional information. Maybe there is a compromise in here somewhere.--Random Replicator (talk) 05:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not sources are available to be read online should have no bearing on whether or not they are appropriate citations. We should use the best sources available, not the most accessable sources. Kaldari (talk) 16:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Misplaced Pages needs to establish credibility by citing excellent reliable sources, agreed. In our case; however, the entry was designed to increase access to a complex concept via a transition article. Everything in here is general knowledge. Our approach has been to basically use citations as a tool to open doors to even more general "laymen" type web resources. For example: I didn't mean to suggest that they have to be web accessable; I'm just saying for our audience in an Introductory Article there is merit to doing so if it opens new resources for general readers. Face it, they are not going to go locate the Journal of Evolutionary Biology; however a cool web cite like National Geographic or PBS may be meaningful. The entire Evolution page is sourced from high level journals. It bespeaks of credibility; but it offers nothing to the general reader. What I see as a strength of our entry; at least by some, is seen as a weakness. --Random Replicator (talk) 00:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I am a bit dismayed by the tone that this FAC has taken. Any pages dealing with evolution are a challenge to take on and the editors should be commended for their efforts. I know that they have worked hard over the past few months because I have repeatedly offered what I hope is constructive criticism on this article and they have always taken it graciously. While I cannot yet support this article for FAC (my little list of comments is currently on the article's talk page, I would like to respond to some of the concerns raised here, which did not correlate with mine at all. Mine are largely demands for more explanation and organizational concerns (and I believe the editors will be able to fix these and I will be able to support the article).

• The sourcing requirements for this article should follow Misplaced Pages:Scientific citation guidelines, as Wassupwestcoast appropriately notes. I think that the editors have made an excellent decision in sourcing the article to books accessible to the readership they are writing for. Notes are not just for verification, they are also for further reading. If the notes are all to technical articles and high-level textbooks, we wouldn't be doing our users any favors. The editors of this page have thought so carefully about their audience that they have chosen specific sources for them is something we should marvel at, not condemn.
• I am also concerned that some of the beautiful illustrations have disappeared. While initially the page may have had a disorganized layout (I complained about this months ago), the solution to this problem is not the total elimination of illustrations, but the careful selection of the best illustrations. Let us work together! Awadewit | talk 01:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This probably wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but since I can't see anyone else really talking about the images I wanted to clear up my comment above. I wasn't opposed to any of the images or the number of images in the article. Was it really that unclear? I just thought the introduction area was really cluttered with two images, a template and the table of contents all jammed in there. I think the article would look a little cleaner with just a single image or template and the TOC in the intro area, but that is just my preference so I'm not going to demand that one or the other be moved if you or the other editors disagree. Ben 06:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

How do you think it looks now? I think that having the evolution template in the white space next to the TOC and under the dinosaur image works fine. (By the way, I think there were people on the talk page discussing the images, too - I've lost track now.) Awadewit | talk 20:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes ...the image concern was not related to your thread.It has been batted about all over the place. Your contributions and your support is greatly appreciated Ben, and sparked some hope that with effort FA concerns can be resolved. Thanks.--Random Replicator (talk) 00:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it looks much better now the introduction has been fleshed out and filled some of the whitespace. Good luck. Ben 14:20, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Support My concerns have been addressed. While I cannot speak to the scientific accuracy of this article (I have asked TimVickers to provide us with an outside scientific peer review on that point, if anyone is interested), I can speak to its reading level, comprehensiveness, and prose. For comparison, I picked up an "introduction to evolution" pamphlet at the bookstore to see whether we were covering the major topics (and we were, with a few optional choices, in my opinion). The prose is at an appropriate reading level for competent high-schools students (the article's audience) and, while not poetic (what on wikipedia is?), clearly explains the concepts. Kudos to the editors. Awadewit | talk 02:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment (part I):
  • I would favour bolding "evolution" at the start of the article, but that's neither here nor there

done--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • I'm not thrilled with the first sentence - it seems a bit clumsy. Also, it stresses speciation - while that's a crucial point to make, it misses the point that evolution is a continuous process, while species are arbitrary points that we assign to continua.

done--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Second sentence says that evolution has "has transformed the first species" into "a large number of different species". That just doesn't capture the millions (of eukaryotic) or billions (of prokaryotic) species that have originated from this common ancestor (or group of ancestors).

done--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Third sentence - "this process" or "these processes"? Shouldn't we speak about "processes"?

done--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Fourth sentence - there's too much of a jump from evolutionary biology to Mendel and DNA.

done--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Second paragraph - there is no single theory of evolution - there's a body of theory that is evolutionary biology.
  • The second paragraph should be combined into the first. The current arrangement overvalues molecular biology, undervalues palaeontology and taxonomy, and leaves out biogeography, which was the key bit that clued Darwin in, and also is probably the most intuitively understandable. Guettarda (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

done specific comments to the above on discussion page if you care to follow-up--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment (part II):
  • The section "Darwin's idea" makes no mention of Wallace; I think that's a major deficiency. The final paragraph could start with a mention of (and link to) Wallace.

done --Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The first paragraph of "Mendel's contribution" goes into unnecessary detail. An introductory article needs a clear statement that Darwin lacked a theory of inheritance (but still did a pretty good job). Losing everything after the third paragraph would substantially improve the section, although the second to last sentence ("Darwin produced an unsuccessful theory...") might be worth keeping to close off the paragraph.

done (dramatic improvements to this section) thank you --Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The second paragraph of "Mendel's contribution" could be clearer - the statement that "heredity works by reshuffling and recombining factors" isn't going to make much sense to someone who doesn't know this stuff already. Guettarda (talk) 16:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

done specific comments to the above on discussion page if you care to follow-up--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment (part III):
  • The section on the modern synthesis is misleading. The modern synthesis was not born of the discovery of DNA - it came from the integration of Mendel with Darwin. It came from the work of Fisher, Haldane, Huxley, etc. What these people did, before the discovery of the role of DNA, was to transform evolution into a viable modern science. The section totally misses the point - it talks about the Galapagos, progression and the KT. The section should start with the final sentence, and work from there.

done --- very much improved--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The image used in the "Species" section is a poor choice. The truly amazing diversification of cichlids is among the East African Rift Valley haplochromines. This is where we have hundreds of species originating from a handful of ancestors (one per lake?) in a few thousand years. The image is of an example of a group of hybrids of Central American species, probably Cichlasoma spp. Central American Cichlasomas are fairly diverse, but they show just average diversity for tropical species. The hybrids show high rates of deformity, which is likely to be a distraction. While there don't seem to be a lot of good pix of Haplochromis spp. (this and this are the only ones I could find), Mbunas show a similar, if not quite so overwhelming, pattern of diversification (and there are lots of good pix there).

Interestingly, I have had email exchanges with Dr. Walter Salzburger, a cichlid guru; who I was seeking confirmation on the general accuracy of that section. He is to provide me with more current examples from his studies in Lake Victoria cichlids. But until then, I am open for any picture with strong visual appeal.--Random Replicator (talk) 20:30, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The section "Different perspectives on the mechanism of evolution" might be better terms "Perspectives on the mechanism of evolution". Obviously they are going to be different, or we wouldn't have a separate section. Guettarda (talk) 16:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

done--Random Replicator (talk) 03:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This list is being addressed on the discussion page!--Random Replicator (talk) 00:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I am fairly sure I have addressed your concerns; will you be responding here or at the discussion page so that I might make modifications as needed to these very beneficial concerns? Thank you for a meaningful critique!--Random Replicator (talk) 14:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

• • IMPORTANT COMMENT: I have transfered the concerns from those who objected or simply commented to Talk:Introduction to evolution. It is very well organized, unlike this page has become. It would be greatly appreciated if all how have left commentaries or opposed, visit the page to follow-up on their contributions. It may be they have been addressed to your satisfaction or perhaps with more details they can be. Should other concerns be added; I will do the same with them. Thank you --Random Replicator (talk) 19:46, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support. This is thorough, it is readable and it is interesting. Even the hated info box seems to provide a valuable service here. The author clearly understands the subject and the text seems confident (that sounds daft but I know what I mean). I don't see any good reasons why this can't be promoted to FA. Giano (talk) 19:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support. The article is splendid already, and editors can tweak it to their heart's content just as easily after granting it the FA star as before. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose The editors are having a difficult time reaching consensus without belittling others interested in the article. The article is limited to eukaryotic evolution, but the outline box is about evolution in general. This introduces a type of inaccuracy that should not be present in an introductory article. Evolution biologists have been able to discuss and disagree with each other and reach consensus on teaching for a long time. Misplaced Pages writers should try to do this without personally attacking others who have ideas that differ from their own on an article's discussion page. With editing at this level, resorting to belittling editors who disagree, the article will be a problem when it's on the Main Page. --Amaltheus (talk) 04:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)