Misplaced Pages

Here is my take on this situation. I know that I am as qualified as the other side, but I think my insides should be considered. First of all guys, the evidence posted here alone should be enough not even needing to read what is on Fedayee's page. The relation between Adil and the Lesar family should not have been exposed here. It is obvious that Adil made a mistake by choosing this name without the knowledge of the Lesar family. So it is understandable that he will try to do everything to prove he is not Adil. We are dealing with a potential usurpation from Adil’s part of the family name of one of his clients. I acknowledge that by saying this: I am not making things more simpler because now Adil will be attempting with more energy to prove that he is not Adil, but given the evidence, this leaves no doubt anymore. It is Adil’s interest to bring this to arbitration because he has nothing to lose. So all the administrators involved here should prepare more evidence (I don’t believe more is needed though). If the block becomes definitive, it is also maybe a good idea to contact the Lesar family to report Adil's abuse. It’s their family name which is used to post this nationalistic bombast and nonsense anyways. Regards, --Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 23:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Will I be not assuming good faith if I point out that Grandmaster wrote above: with Armenian users, who want to get rid of one of Azerbaijani editors,... Correct me if I am wrong, but did I miss something? Was Ehud Lesar not claiming to be Ashkenazi Jew? If Grandmaster is admitting that he is an Azerbaijani editor he is basically admitting that Ehud Lesar was a fake name. I wonder what are the chances that there is an Azerbaijani Jew with a Sephardic name (Sephardics are a very small minority of the Jews from Azerbaijan) living in Texas mysteriously just like Adil, and where the Lesar family lives. Whitepages don't have any records about Ehud Lesar, and most if not all Lesar’s from Texas are from the Lesar family. One way is to contact David J. Lesar, he probably knows all the Lesar's from his hometown. But what I suggest is for Adil to drop this and leave it at that, because I personally will not accept some pictures which can easily be forged as valid evidence. I am just fed up with this, Armenian and Azerbaijani editors have enough problems to coexist on Misplaced Pages without Adil's disruptions. VartanM (talk) 03:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

VartanM, your argument about Ehud Lesar's username has absolutely no relevance to the question whether he is Adil or not. There is no Misplaced Pages rule that says a contributor is not allowed to register a username of his choice. Just because MarshallBagramyan has a username does not mean he is Marshall Bagramyan. In fact, such arguments as questioning contributor's ethnic identity based on his username or to claim that person being a sockpuppet of another is simply a violation of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL, WP:HARASS and WP:PRIVACY.

Nishkid, your argument that only Azeri contributors are in support of Ehud not being Adil is an accusation without basis and an assumption of bad faith as:

• 1) You have so far produced no legible proof that Ehud is Adil, but only trying to justify the block after fact;
• 2) Just about every Armenian (that's opposite party) contributor above has been commenting claiming Ehud is Adil's sock, having no proofs either.

So there is an obvious interest to get rid of a contributor along national lines. And now you're essentially accusing myself or Grandmaster of lying that Ehud is not Adil, pouring accusation on a banned User:AdilBaguirov, who can't even defend himself here, and blocking another contributor User:Ehud Lesar based on VartanM or Fedayee's ethnic claim that "he is not a Jew" (as if that disqualifies someone from editing Misplaced Pages). This does not seem to be quite neutral administration, especially when you have no proofs for your accusation.

And it does not matter if 4 or 104 administrators support you, this is about finding the truth, clearing people of false charges, and preventing from future dangerous precedents of frivolous blocking. Ehud Lesar case should be pursued further, and if necessary, with the involvement of ArbCom and User:Jimbo Wales, until his identity and baseless charges against him are cleared. I personally will seek no further interest in editing Misplaced Pages, if people are just being blocked frivolously just because someone else accuses the person of not being Ashkenazi or Sephardic Jew. Supporting such reports by an administrative action, in my opinion, is a gross violation of any form of civility let it alone the definition of the term 💕. Atabek (talk) 05:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I will be definitely be pursuing this further until the issue is resolved. But at the moment I'm trying to get the problem resolved by consensus with the blocking admins. If it does not work, we will have to take further steps prescribed by Misplaced Pages rules for the dispute resolution. Grandmaster (talk) 08:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Uploads of User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

This user has uploaded an undetermined number of fair use files that have fair use rationales consisting of a few words. Needless to say, they do not conform to WP:FURG. I've already tagged three for di, but was unsure whether to continue (Twinkle adds a warning to his talk page every time... flooding etc). There may be a large number of others. --Thinboy00 @087, i.e. 01:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, you do need to explain why these rationales don't conform with WP:FURG, otherwise your contest is without basis. If you think that these rationales are in some way deficient, please feel free to expand them or detail your concerns at the respective image description pages. The primary concern remains whether the current use of these images is consistent with the NFCC, the inadequacy of rationales is secondary. ˉˉ╦╩ 01:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that he has a large number of these things, none of which provide a valid fair use rationale. The first one was three words long. He is missing entire criteria in all three. None of the three are more than a sentence in length. WP:FURG is a guideline, and execptions are only made when there is an actual (common sense) reason for doing so. Laziness is not a reason. --Thinboy00 @096, i.e. 01:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Why do you think these rationales are not valid? Which specific parts of FURG do they violate? Don't judge a rationale by its length, there is no guideline that requires a set number of paragraphs and most rationales are plagued by redundancy. The concerns that have to be addressed include image quality, replaceability, and purpose for use; Norton's rationale of "low res, dead, no revenue loss" may be concise, but it does address these concerns. And please, don't throw out accusations of laziness. ˉˉ╦╩ 01:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent, ec, late comment) It did not address purpose of use on any occasion. --Thinboy00 @135, i.e. 02:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The purpose of using a photograph to identify a person is self-explanatory. Even so, if the lack of a statement on the purpose is your sole concern, then say so in the tag. ˉˉ╦╩ 02:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Here I echo Wikidemo's comment (further down). --Thinboy00 @192, i.e. 03:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• The guidelines are going to keep evolving, and new templates created. We shouldn't delete the older material, we should fix it each time a new guideline comes out. The purpose is to have a useful reference work. Any new editor can format the rationale to whatever the new standards are, but to delete the material is just silly, and does no service to this reference work. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict, rewrote comment) They (the images) are not old enough for that; one of them was uploaded last August: Image:HalRoach 001a.jpg. Did you read WP:FURG before uploading? This is what it looked like at the time. Even then it required a purpose of use. Not sure what you're getting at here. --Thinboy00 @134, i.e. 02:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

• The fair use rationale is there, just not formatted pretty. The pretty templates came later. And more changes will come in years to come, the question is ... do we delete what we don't like, or do we fix and upgrade to accommodate new changes. We don't delete articles with old infoboxes, we upgrade the article with the new infobox. Deletion is for ego satisfaction, fixing is for creating a good reference work. Why are we deleting an image because someone doesn't like the format for the rationale, why not fix? If everyone deleted, we would have nothing. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Richard, a little cut-and-paste work will spare the drama. I'm assuming good faith but the tone of the use rationales is a little dismissive. You can at least use a template or something. Also, the article name ought to be associated with the rationale, not the image as a whole (in case it gets used in more than one article someday). One criterion that's missing from your analysis is the explanation of why the image is important to the article (criterion #8) and not replaceable (#1). Neither "low res" nor "dead" explains that, and "no revenue loss" is a conclusion, not a justification. The area in which you're operating, historical photos, is one that is not an obvious case like record covers, logos, or book jackets. Wikidemo (talk) 02:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Richard, that would be a good argument, except that there were templates when you uploaded that image. Click on my link. I'm still assuming good faith, but it's becoming more difficult. I still believe that there is a rational explanation for this -- specifically, you forgot to read the guideline. That's all I can come up with. Of course, if you have a rational explanation, feel free to post it. --Thinboy00 @918, i.e. 21:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The good faith explanation you're missing is this: ignoring instruction creep is entirely appropriate in some cases. The phrase "forgot to read the guideline" implies that you think every Wikipedian has your guideline on their watchlist, so they can do things differently every time it changes. Richard Arthur Norton has been improving the encyclopedia, so don't attack him for improving it in what you consider to be slightly the wrong way. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 10:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Pats1

I ask that the actions of this editor be reviewed. I still feel threatened and feel like I am being treated in a uncivil manner. I think this editor may have jumped the gun in warnings and threats when he knew that they were not necessary. I think he may have simply done the bidding of another user, chrisjnelson, who has been banned before for uncivil posts. I simply ask that those with power to block be fair and juducicial, rather than what I think may have been a knee-jerk, unfair, abuse of his powers. 72.0.36.36 (talk) 01:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

this was Pats1's response to me when I said I wanted this to be reviewed . . . is this acceptable?72.0.36.36 (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't hold your breath for too long... Pats1 /C 01:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that you seem to be very interested in bringing this admin to justice... from reading your talk page and his, I think this is a misunderstanding at best, and an ip troll at worst. Of course we assume best case. I think you should read WP:AGF and objectively look at your actions. I advise you not to continue this dispute, as it may lead to blocking or banning, which we seriously don't want to do, but will if we have to. You might try Mediation. If you disagree with me and believe that there are widespread abuses, then ultimately you should go to Arbitration, but you should know that these cases are not accepted lightly, and you should attempt to resolve the issue outside of arbitration, through venues such as an RFC, or request for comment, which is slightly more formal than talk page discussion, and/or mediation. --Thinboy00 @175, i.e. 03:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I guarantee this is not an "IP" troll, whatever that is. I have contributed to wiki and think I should be valued as much as anyone else. I do disagree with you, but I do not claim widespread abuses. I agree this is a misunderstanding. I think if you look at what happened, I have remained calm and deliberate. Pats1 was been the one who is, in my view, being uncivil and also keeps changing his story. If you would put yourself in my shoes for a moment you would see that this was a "gang-up" situation, where a misunderstanding excalated, due to Pats1, threatening to block me without a valid reason. I have tried to get Pats1 to be reasonable, yet as you can see, he is still defiant and I see no reason why it is me who is under the scrutiny. As you say I need to assume the best, but it seems to me, and this is just my opinion, there seems to be some "editor" protections I am not aware of. It seems that since I choose to be anonymous that my word is not as good as someone else's. I have asked for fairness. I admit that I am not perfect, however, it is I who have followed the rules. At every step it seems I have been blocked, pardon the pun, from what is fair and right. I cannot comment on how arbitration or mediation would be appropriate---I don't know the process of either. RFC is a new thing to me altogether. I guess I think it is fair that those in power are the ones who should help me in this process, rather than hinder it. I think other editors should look at Pats1's action objectively, not look at him as "one of you" are that he is part of a clique. I understand that is natural . . . but when it is Pats1 who overreacted to a request of chrisjnelson, then threatens to block, even though I had asked for a solution prior to that means that he may have been abusing his power. You see, it is easy to get your way when you have power. In that situation I was at Pats1's mercy. Understand? I had asked that the problem go to dispureresolution. Pats1 says that "means nothing" to him. Well, it meant something to me. SO, this is ultimately not up to me. I have zero power here. I cannot make anyone do anything they don't want to. In a sense, as an IP minority, I have no franchise, but I thought I had the protections afforded anyone else. Now, as far as RFC, Arbitration, Mediation I don't know. Clearly, the most informal should be first. However, it is my view that Pats1 will be defensive about ANY of those. I could not get him to talk to me before he threatend to block me, and he's shown his attitude by his posts . . .

] (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't hold your breath for too long... Pats1 /C 01:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

....So, if I am wasting my time by asking for a review, formal or informal, then so be it. Then it may be the above statement is considered CIVIL. In my book it is not. 72.0.36.36 (talk) 02:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I've read about this whole issue, it seems to be about an incredibly minor issue. The whole conflict between 72.0.36.36 and Chrisjnelson (talk · contribs) I think could've been avoided. Based on my observations, correct me if I'm wrong, when Pats1 (talk · contribs) got involved with the revert war between 72~ and Chrisjnelson, I understand the basis of which Chrisjnelson, and later Pats1, made the reverts. I won't say who I believe was right or wrong.

Now, for 72~'s claim that he was unfairly warned/threatened. The two warnings visible on his talk page right now cite that 72~ had deleted portions of "page content, templates or other materials." The only thing that I've seen that 72~ did was remove {{trivia}} from the Ted Ginn, Jr. article. Now, here is my view of how the situation was handled.

I think that Pats1 knew that the edits that 72~ was making were disputed. The warnings that Pats1 gave out are generally used for users deliberately blanking all or part of an article in a deliberate act of vandalism. There is nothing that indicates to me that 72~ was vandalizing the article. It is my belief that the warnings Pats1 gave to 72~ were not necessary, and made the conflict into more than what it needed to.

In either case, Pats1 is a great contributor and a good admin. I don't think that anybody's behavior needs to be reviewed. But I do side with 72~ about the "unfair warnings", and that has nothing to do with my previous conflicts with Chrisjnelson or Pats1. I think that the best way to resolve this would be for both sides to just go their separate ways and try not to make this issue anything more than it needs to be. I see no reason why any action needs to be taken because this is just one incident. It's not indicative of anybody's overall behavior. Ksy92003(talk) 04:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is Pats1 attitude

Be prepared to stay in that mode for a long, long, long time (possibly forever, but research on the subject varies). Your AN/I entry has been archived and most likely won't be seen again - like I said before, but you didn't want to listen. Nobody is "looking at it." Pats1 /C 04:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, okay, if that's the ruling, I can abide by that. I posted Pats1 most recent post to my talk page. It is not what I call civil, but there are often different standards. Like I said, I can abide this, no problem. I will go my separate way he Pats1 can go his. It is enough for me that there was some sort of review process and now Pats1 is aware that I will assume good faith, but not to a fault. Thanks Ksy92003 I appreciate the review.72.0.36.36 (talk) 04:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Be prepared to stay in that mode for a long, long, long time (possibly forever, but research on the subject varies). Your AN/I entry has been archived and most likely won't be seen again - like I said before, but you didn't want to listen. Nobody is "looking at it." Pats1 /C 04:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Is Ksy92003(talk) 04:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC) nobody? Besides Pats1 this conversation is between myself and Politik426. What exactly is the purpose for you to comment? That is another example, I think, of your bullying behavior and it is not civil and is yet anotehr example of you flaunting the rules in my face. I don't get why you do that. Perhaps you think you need to hold it over me that you have more power and connections in WIKI than I do, I don't know. I think you and I should take the advise of "nobody" and go our separate ways. I have documented your actions, someone has reviewed them and please go your way, I'll go mine.72.0.36.36 (talk) 04:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Pats 1 uncivil?

Ksy92003 can read it or respond to it all he wants. You quite simply have a false assumption of how Misplaced Pages processes work and I've tried to help you fix that, but to avail. This is going nowhere. Pats1 /C 03:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there is any evidence that Pats1 tried to help at all. I don't think that is truthful. He clearly does not thinkKsy92003's opinion is worthy of his attention. I find Pats1 attitude to be uncivil . . . however, if WIKI rules cannot do anything and other admins are not "peer reviewed" as it were then I can kind of understand why this kind of abuse can go on. The very fact that he has such contempt for the process is quite interesting in that it goes unchecked. 72.0.36.36 (talk) 07:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Turtlescrubber

Turtescrubber is inserting material into an article that is already in the article. I reverted here, and he reverted back. I do not want to get into an edit war, and so the article now contains several paragraphs that are repeated twice. Perhaps an admin could look into it?Ferrylodge (talk) 02:45, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Note, Ferrylodge has been blocked before, several times before, see . Bearian (talk) 02:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC) But not Turtlescrubber, see

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Log&type=block&page=User:Turtlescrubber]. Bearian (talk) 02:54, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And does that end the discussion, Bearian? ArbCom overturned the ban against me. How is that relevant to the issue I raised above?Ferrylodge (talk) 02:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Ferrylodge is going against an article consensus that left the article locked for weeks. He never really accepted the consensus to keep the section in the article and has a horrible case of wp:own. He has worn all the editors on the page down with his constant bickering. I cant take him anymore. I recently stood up for him when a group of editors wanted him to be banned again, I wish I hadn't. I cannot assume good faith with him anymore. Turtlescrubber (talk) 02:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My point. Bearian (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:59, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Bearian, no article should contain multiple duplicate paragraphs. This article was previously protected in response to edit-warring by, among others, Turtlescrubber. Now he is edit-warring to repeat material that is already in the article.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I am following talk page consensus, something you obviously have a problem with. Why did you get banned in the first place. You were the one who stripped the article in the first place and you are slowly doing the same thing again. You should be ashamed of yourself. Turtlescrubber (talk) 03:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not "stripping" an article to remove duplicate paragraphs. There was no consensus anywhere to have duplicate paragraphs. You have repeatedly inserted duplicate paragraphs today, and that needs to stop.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop twisting my words, its a bad habit you have. You were, in part, responsible for the original protection of the page because you kept stripping the article of any religious content. Now you are slowly doing the same thing, first you remove the CONSENSUS Section on Mitt Romney's religion. When you have the material scattered throughout the page, you are going to slowly delete or "phase out" or the material. I have seen you do it before, there are reams on the talk page about this, you are going completely against consensus, again. The funny thing is that you wrote the damn section to get the page unblocked and as soon as it was unblocked you started whining and trying to dismantle the section and shuffle the information off into the void. You are a Mitt Romney supporter who does not like the fact that him being a mormon is detrimental to his election chances. You have a serious case of CONFLICT of INTEREST and you do not OWN the page, no matter how many edits you make. If anyone wants to see a good example of this users talk page and editing style, look to the fetus article talk page. Ferrylodge is doing the exact same thing there and pissing everybody off. Par for course. Turtlescrubber (talk) 03:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

People can go see for themselves. Every paragraph that Turtlescrubber has jammed into the article today was already in the article. Now each of his preferred paragraphs appear twice in the article. Is this so complicated?Ferrylodge (talk) 03:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I reinserted the consensus version. You are the one that went against consensus and scattered information throughout the page. If they appear twice then we should removed the scattered non-consensus material, then everybody is happy. Is that what you want? That would be fine with me. Instead, I think this is your excuse and the only argument you have. I say leave the consensus derived paragraphs in the article, it tooks us weeks to all agree on that section. Turtlescrubber (talk) 03:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Every single one of the consensus-derived sentences remained in this article, before you began edit-warring today to include duplicates of those sentences. The only exception is a sentence about Mrs. Romney's family, which is now located in the separate article about her.Ferrylodge (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The section and placement of the section was part of the compromise. You know that. You have tried to undue the consensus multiple times. Once again, the fact that all the information is in one place in the article and the placement of that section were both parts of the consensus. Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Based on what I saw a long time ago, Turtlescrubber edits suggests a very liberal political viewpoint and Ferrylodge a very conservative viewpoint (but not a goose stepping facist or racist). Censensus will be very difficult but can be achieved if BOTH want it. Saying that one was blocked but they were not is NOT the way to begin to achieve consensus.Congolese fufu (talk) 03:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I am a moderate and I have never run into you before. CONSENSUS HAS BEEN REACHED ON THE TALK PAGE, Ferrylodge is violating that consensus. It's in the archive. Turtlescrubber (talk) 03:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Seek the middle way between the two extremes. The best compromise I can think of is to merge the two sections together: everybody wins. —Viriditas | Talk 03:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What two sections? And are you calling the hard won consensus made by weeks of discussion on the talk page one of the extremes? I don't see how following the consensus of a dozen editors, against one who eventually agreed, is an extreme. Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There was no hard-won consensus to have multiple paragraphs about the subject's Mormonism, and then repeat every last one of those paragraphs twice for added emphasis. As I said in my first comment above, I'm not inclined to edit-war about this; as far as I'm concerned Tutrlescrubber can now go and reinsert the material again, so that it appears in triplicate.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The two sections, "Early life and education" and "Religious background". Talk page discussion by several users here seems to question whether consensus exists, so blaming Ferrylodge doesn't seem right. You also seem to be very angry and upset about this, when what is needed is calm appraisal. —Viriditas | Talk 04:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you have to read the entirety of the third archive and part of the fourth to see the consensus and the reaction that other users had when ferrylodge tried to break the consensus. I don't know how to link to specific sections in an archive. Ferrylodge has been trying to break the consensus from literaly day one. He was stopped immediately by the outcry of the many editors who had worked so long to gain the consensus. I have never been as frustrated with any editor that I have been with ferrylodge. Just look at his arguments on this page. They shift everytime he is wrong and he never stops. Its almost psychotic or obsessive compulsive. I understand why he got banned in the past. Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My arguments on this page have not "shifted." No Misplaced Pages article should contain duplicate sentences, much less dozens of them. Inserting duplicate sentences strikes me as vandalism.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well then lets keep the religious background section and remove the stray sentences. Everybody is happy. Deal? Or are you going to shift your argument again or just ignore this bolded comment? Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello? I think I solved your complaint. Why aren't you responding? Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

My response is below, at 04:42, 11 January 2008.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you changed your line of argumentation and ignored my original statement. You will keep doing that very thing ad infinitum until you exhaust the patience of everyone on this page.Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Turtlescrubber, this is why we should encourage page moves when archiving talk pages, as the diffs are preserved in each individual archive. If you can't find the links in the specific archive, then they are on the main talk page under the date, which means you have to go hunting. Let me address the problem another way. If you were willing to make a concession but also wanted Ferrylodge to do the same, how would you meet him half way? What part of this argument are you willing to give up, and in the same way, which aspect should Ferrylodge concede? —Viriditas | Talk 04:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you are trying to do and I do appreciate it. My sticking point is the second section of the article should be the religious background section and most of the religious material should be kept therein. This was part of the consensus and it allows us to see when material is removed. I don't care about content. Good, bad, negative or positive.Turtlescrubber (talk) 04:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent)The reason I came here is because duplicative material should not be jammed into an article. All of the other issues are tangential, and should be worked out by consensus at the talk page.

I cannot think of a worse reason to keep a bunch of sentences grouped together than because "it allows us to see when material is removed." If you don't have the time or energy to watch the article or participate in the talk page, that's no reason why everyone else must arrange your favorite parts of the article in a format that will make them easier for you to monitor. And, again, the main point is that it is vandalism to take dozens of sentences in an article, copy them, and then redundantly paste them into the article.

When I invited Turtlescrubber to the talk page today, he declined. Turtlescrubber, if you would undo your duplicative edits, and come to the talk page, you'll see that none of the consensus-sentences about Romney's religion have been removed, except for one sentence about Romney's wife's family (which is now in the article about Romney's wife). The consensus-sentences have been put into several different sections of the article, to which those sentences correspond.Ferrylodge (talk) 04:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I no longer assume good faith from you ferrylodge. I have talked with you about this very subject dozens of times on the talk page as seen in the archives. We have talked about this over a period of many weeks. We had a consensus. You don't like it and want it changed. You will eventually scatter the material throughout the article and slowly delete it as you have started to do. That is why having it in a section is the only way to keep an eye on it. That is because of you and your obsessive need to "clean" your candidates article. You constantly edit the article and slip in changes when no ones looking. I am a normal persona and cannot keep up with the obsessive amounts of edits you make. Lets remove the stray sentences, keep the second section and call it a day. If "all other issues are tangential" than this should be a workable solution. What do you say to that solution ferrylodge? Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Fortunately, Turtlescrubber, you can go to the history page of an article, and select any two versions to compare. You don't have to compare consecutive versions.

Additionally, as you know, you have made a grand total of one talk page comment this year. Here it is. You said, "I restored the full section and will not let your pov and conflict of interest remove all references to religion from Mitt Romneys page." As you must be able to acknowledge, I did not remove a single reference to religion from Mitt Romney's page, except for one sentence about his wife's family, which is now in the seperate article about his wife (although the editors there shortened it because they thought it was a "digression" even in the article about her ).

And getting back to the point: please stop duplicating your favorite material in the Mitt Romney article. Just because you want everyone to be aware of his Mormonism does not permit you to repeat dozens of sentences over and over again. That's vandalism.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Lets remove the stray sentences, keep the second section and call it a day. There would be no duplicate material. If "all other issues are tangential" than this should be a workable solution. What do you say to that solution ferrylodge? Would that solution to the duplicate material work for you? Please answer yes or no and than say why! Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you guys actually looking for some action from an administrator here, or are you just bringing a content dispute to AN/I? Bringing an argument here probably isn't helping either one of you. There's WP:RFC for that. --Elkman 05:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Elkman, as I said in my first comment, I would very much appreciate some action from an administrator here. Isn't it vandalism for a user to insert duplicates of dozens of sentences in an article?Ferrylodge (talk) 05:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I didn't bring this to the page. I just want to return to the consensus version and then I will be happy to leave the page alone. Jesus, do you want to remove the duplicate material. I'll do it. No problem. Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. I removed the duplicate material as per your concerns. I hope this situation is resolved. I am going to sleep. Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The consensus agreement

Hello everyone. I have taken a much-needed break from editing on Mitt Romney but I was right in the midst of the consensus discussions that Turtlescrubber refers to, and I will be glad to report what the consensus was at that time. But I am not willing to hunt down the diffs and I'm doing this from memory because I've already wasted too much of my life arguing with a tendentious editor on this and other matters. I am not going to get embroiled in this here or anywhere else - I don't have the time or the interest to respond to the volumes that I expect will ensue, based on previous experience. So I will report and I will leave and you can decide what to do about it.

Turtlescrubber is completely correct that the agreement that allowed the full protection to finally be lifted was that there would be a section on "Religious Background" as the second section of the article - that is, directly under "Early life and education". This was a consensus agreement, that included editors who had taken different positions initially. It was a compromise based on the Eisenhower model, but it didn't last too long before tinkering with it began. There were requests that the consensus agreement be left alone so that the article could enjoy some stability, but apparently that went out the window. There was certainly no agreement that once the page was unlocked the religion section could be dismantled and distributed throughout the article. There was a proposal to move only the second paragraph (I think it was the 2nd) to the Presidential campaign section, but no agreement that I know of was reached on that - I was one of the editors who said I might be willing to consider that but I never did agree to it. And in any case, part and parcel of my even being willing to consider it was that the Religious background section would remain as the 2nd section of the article, as many of us believe that his religion is one of the first things that people look for discussions of when they come to his article.

For that reason, I would totally oppose the dismantling of the religion section and never would have agreed to it if I were actively editing there now. I believe that breaking up of the religious background section is designed to downplay references to his being a Mormon, for whatever reason, and while I might not think that every biography should have a prominent religion section, I think this one needs to. Further, I think that the way the material has been edited has been in a not particularly neutral way - it seems to be also designed to remove any hint of negativity or critical view - again, you can decide for what reason, as I don't care to speculate right now.

Of course no one thinks that the material should be repeated in the article (other than perhaps an echo in the intro) - Ferrylodge is right about that. I would hope Turtlescrubber really didn't have that in mind as his final edit, and his bolded section above clearly indicates to me that he does not want the material duplicated. I think he was re-instating the section that had been agreed to, and I believe he'd agree to remove the duplication from the other sections if the consensus agreement to retain the separate section is respected.

If a new consensus has been reached, I don't know anything about it, and I acknowledge that consensus can change. But not by strong-arming, one would hope. As I said, I have been on a break from this article, and I may or may not go back to it - I haven't decided. But if this AN/I item is an indication of what's going on there, I'll be less likely to. I would have hoped that Ferrylodge's experience in being banned and having a arbitration lift the ban because of discomfort with the banning process would have shown him a different path, but it sounds like not that much has changed, which is unfortunate. I hope this helps, but I mean it - I really do not want to go another ten rounds with you, Ferrylodge. So try to resist temptation to invoke what you think my politics are and any other tactic, and see if you can respect the consensus that I and Cool Hand Luke and others worked really hard to achieve after a long period of full protection. One other thing: I have had absolutely no contact with Turtlescrubber or anyone else about this - no one asked me to come here and comment, I just saw it on AN/I and decided to try to help out. And I am sincere in that - I am only commenting here in an attempt to help. Tvoz |talk 05:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And, it looks like there was an almost simultaneous edit here and that Turtlescrubber removed the duplication - I haven't looked at it - so will the consensus Religious Background section be maintained? That no doubt will determine whether this matter is resolved or not. Tvoz |talk 05:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the consensus works for me. I asked the guy four times if he wanted me to remove the duplicate material, if you hadn't come along he would have just changed his argument to the next silly thing he thought of. Resolved now. Super, I don't want to go any more rounds with ferrylodge either. I do have a life. ;) Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This matter has now been resolved, because Turtlescrubber has now removed dozens of sentences in the article that were duplicative as a result of his edits a few hours ago. I do not agree with the way he has taken ownership of this article, but at least he has removed the vandalism by not repeating his favorite parts of the article twice. I would also kindly request him to investigate more carefully in the future, before falsely accusing me of removing material from the article, and before edit-warring yet again.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yawn. Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Real consensus

I don't believe you have a real consensus. You need to stop fighting. Tvoz and Turtlescrubber are known liberals and Ferrylodge is a known conservative. There is little attempt at consensus from what I can see. Can you please calm it down?

I take the yawn to be a disruptive comment.Congolese fufu (talk) 05:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yawn. Turtlescrubber (talk) 05:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me? Now I'm a "known liberal"? Who are you anyway - I've never even seen your name before so how exactly do you know who I am, and why are you denigrating my attempt to help out here? In case you didn't notice, I wasn't fighting, I was trying to help out by providing testimony as to what transpired before, and in case you didn't notice I'm not trying to re-achieve consensus, as I did that already. In fact I agreed with Ferrylodge that the material shouldn't be duplicated, and before I finished posting my comment Turtlescrubber had already removed the duplication. So maybe you should mind your own business and not characterize people's politics when you know nothing about them. Tvoz |talk 05:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And while you're at it, don't remove other people's comments on AN/I - I reinstated a reply that Turtlescrubber made above that you took out without explanation or authority, as far as I can see. It's not your prerogative to remove what other people say in a forum like this. Tvoz |talk 06:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I saw your name in the newspaper before I saw it on Misplaced Pages. If I divulge it, then it would potentially invade your privacy. Your name made national news. Congolese fufu (talk) 06:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Right, and you remembered it. I don't think so. Nowhere did it say anything about being a liberal, by the way, so try again. Or, on second thought, maybe don't. I'm done here. Tvoz |talk 06:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't have the newspaper with me but another newspaper has a different article online. Just google "Tvoz". To find it higher in the search page, google "Tvoz wikipedia democrat". The article isn't the same but it talks about Misplaced Pages and Tvoz being a Democrat and Ferrylodge being a Republican. All I see in the above comment is hate. Read my comments and you will find that I have been completely neutral yet all I get are attacks. Congolese fufu (talk) 07:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Time for you two to go back to your corners and cool off. Congolese fufu, DO NOT remove other editors' comments from AN/I, unless it's blatant vandalism, even then let an admin remove it. Those kinds of tactics are a short path to a block, for sure. Tvoz, comments like "maybe you should mind your own business..." aren't really conducive to the situation either, are they? Someone needs to be the party here to rise above, take a step back, and get perspective. You're BOTH better than this.. Edit Centric (talk) 06:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec):::::Edit Centric, see your user talk page for explanation of Misplaced Pages software problem. Congolese fufu (talk) 06:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure enough. But I don't appreciate the baiting, and don't think it was deserved. I was trying to help. Cheers. Tvoz |talk 06:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(Indent reset) Understood. However, you're both equally ferrying the spat down the Wiki-river, fufu by baiting with the whole "known liberals" thing, and tvoz by taking umbrage (while justified) in such a way as to be bordering on incivility. Tvoz, keep the helpful attitude, no matter what, and you'll be ahead of the game. Congolese fufu, drop the party-line talk, and concentrate on the article. Both of you try to find some middle ground, and work toward the betterment of the article, and the forwarding of knowledge to the end-reader. That's the aim here. Edit Centric (talk) 07:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"Equally"? If you say so. Seems to me there's a difference between baiting someone without cause (I have had no dealings with this person, at least not under that username) and calling someone on doing the baiting, even if a bit pointedly - but so be it. And his helpful instructions here and on a couple of talk pages on how to find my name in case anyone missed it were gratuitous and irrelevant, and could be grounds for an AN/I incident report of my own as they would seem to be against policy. (Curious, too, that he claims to have read the newspaper article - there is only one - and remembered my name and my politics, yet the article came out in September before his account was even created.) CF is not an editor on Romney as far as I know, and I've been staying away from it recently, so there's no middle ground to be sought. I was not involved in this current dispute, my aim here was to help get that process back on track, as I know the two editors who were in the dispute and some factual background seemed to me like it might help break their logjam. No good deed goes unpunished, however. After over 9,600 edits you'd think I'd remember that. Cheers, again. Tvoz |talk 10:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What admins can do if you bring a dispute here

If you want action from an administrator, here are some things an administrator could do:

• Protect the page for a while until the differences are ironed out. Of course, protecting the page at one editor's preferred version would make the other editor unhappy.
• Call one editor's edits "vandalism" and roll back their edits. Misplaced Pages:Vandalism says that content disputes aren't vandalism, though.
• Block one user from editing, but not the other. This won't fix anything; it'll just anger one of the users and encourage the other one to gloat in victory.
• Block both users. This might quiet things down for a while, but it won't make anyone feel better.
• Delete the article outright. Nope, I'm not doing that.
• Attempt to determine who's right and who's wrong, based on Misplaced Pages policies. I could spend the next half-hour or so doing that, but that won't help achieve consensus.
• Stop reading AN/I and play Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock for a little while longer. I'm tempted to do that, but it's getting a little late at night.
• Remind the editors involved that there are other options for dispute resolution, such as WP:3O and WP:RFC.
• Encourage the editors involved to actually discuss their differences at the article's talk page, and if they can't get resolution, then invite other editors to provide their opinion. There's a little bit about it at Talk:Mitt Romney, but only from the two users involved. Surely there are other viewpoints.
• Apologize for calling either one of these editors Shirley.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going to see if I can get a five-star review for Miss Murder. --Elkman 05:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That's actually pretty funny. I didn't read it at first thinking it was dry policy. Turtlescrubber (talk) 06:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Elkman. Surely, inserting dozens of duplicate sentences into an article is vandalism.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Give it a rest, you two. You've presented your evidence, had your bicker, taken up a huge amount of space, and reached a resolution. Time to let it rest. Pairadox (talk) 06:34, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

That's pretty good, you should make that into a template for when other users want an admin to "fix" their content dispute. Mr.Z-man 06:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed! I love it. —Viriditas | Talk 07:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

But then I'd have to figure out how to make it a template... (hint, hint) Pairadox (talk) 09:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh Rly?

And yet again Ferrylodge is in a contentious dispute in which he misrepresents others, claims consensus, accuses those with whom he disagrees of vandalism, and the reaction of the general populace is to treat this as though it were a one-on-one dispute - I assure, you, it is not. Ferrylodge has a gift for causing this kind of drama, and making it appear that it is a "both parties are guilty" dispute. Yet although FL has accomplished this with Severa to the point that she left the project, Andrew c to the point that he avoided FL, myself to the point that I also have had that interpretation given me - and somewhat rudely, very recently - and Tvoz, and on and on and on - none of these editors have this kind of "dispute" with anyone else. How many times must this happen before people clue to the fact that the common denominator is Ferrylodge? He causes contention, he is the source of the problems. Puppy has spoken. KillerChihuahua 13:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the probation or mentoring? I thought Ferrylodge was asked to keep away from certain areas, and this suggests he's raising a fuss again. .. dave souza, talk 14:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

KC, I really would appreciate if you would try to be more understanding of the situation. Do you really think it's fine for an editor to insert dozens of duplicate sentences into an article? The editor in question finally agreed to remove the duplication, and yet you place the blame on me. Why?Ferrylodge (talk) 14:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I note your edit immediately prior to the one above was to remove another editor asking why you "feel the need to always try to pull up past drama between us (and other users with whom you have butted heads)" from your talk page. Gee, you've removed four instances of different editors asking you to avoid personal attacks and focus on content, and to avoid drama and BLP and POV editing since Dec 28. KillerChihuahua 14:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Was that what I asked about?Ferrylodge (talk) 14:36, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

No, you attempted to drag me into a content dispute in which I am uninvolved. This is nto the venue for that, nor am I interested in playing referee between yourself and other editors on the Mitt Romney article. Admin intervention is not required for the content dispute; that is inappropriate. KillerChihuahua 14:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You said that I made a false accusation of vandalism. Is it not vandalism to insert dozens of duplicate sentences into an article? Thankfully, the duplicative material has now been removed, so the issue that brought me here to ANI has been resolved.Ferrylodge (talk) 15:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(after EC, reply to Dave souza):

The ArbCom remedy was "Ferrylodge is subject to an editing restriction indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may ban Ferrylodge from any article which relates to pregnancy or abortion, interpreted broadly, which they disrupt by inappropriate editing" - nothing was said specifically about his NPA violations, incivility, harassment, or his activities on political articles. So although certainly action may be taken by any administrator, they would not be part of ArbCom enforcement unless the remedy applied were banning from the Fetus article, which certainly would calm things there, but not help those on Barak Obama or other political articles. Indeed, although much evidence was provided (including an unaddressed 7RR) about his unacceptable activities on political articles, for reasons beyond my comprehension one of the findings of fact was that "has a long history of disruptive editing on topics related to pregnancy and abortion (, ), but has edited reasonably on unrelated topics ()." - apparently his edit warring and POV pushing there was considered "reasonable", or perhaps they didn't see the need to specify political articles as well as pregnancy and abortion articles. KillerChihuahua 14:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It does seem to me that the discussion here is probably less than productive. A Request for Comment would probably be the best way to go, with notes left on any relevant WikiProject talk pages and elsewhere about the discussion. I do think that this matter is serious enough, and probably visible enough, that it should have an organized discussion regarding the specific merits of each position from as many parties as possible. Would that be agreeable to both sides. John Carter (talk) 14:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

John Carter, please clarify. Are you referring to the controversy at the Mitt Romney article that seems to have been resolved because the duplicative sentences have been removed?Ferrylodge (talk) 14:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

No. The decision to have the religion section may likely have been reached on the basis of an inadequate consensus, if there were not sufficient parties involved. This is an election year, and I personally expect that there will be a lot of similarly contentious arguments in the future regarding this candidate and others. I even proposed earlier a separate politics/culture noticeboard on that basis. In my eyes, the RfC would best discuss (1) how relevant is the matter to the subject, (2) should the related content have a separate section, (3) alternately, might it best be spun off into a separate article, with a summary section in the biography, and (4) where would that section be placed in the article. There might be additional objects of discussion as well. But an RfC would be the best way to handle that, as such discussion should be open to a broader audience than just those who watch the admin noticeboards. John Carter (talk) 14:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's a valid suggestion, but it's not really the issue that brought me here to ANI. The issue thnat brought me here to ANI has now been resolved, because dozens of duplicative sentences have now been removed from the article. As for inclusion of the info in the religion section, the main controversy is not whether that info should be included in the article, but where it should be included.Ferrylodge (talk) 15:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

There appears to be a consensus on the article talk page and it seems to not favor Ferrylodge. Am I missing something? JoshuaZ (talk) 14:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

JoshuaZ, I think it would be helpful if you'd clarify. "Consensus" about what? There was no consensus at the article talk page to include dozens of duplicate sentences in the article. That's why I started this section here at ANI.Ferrylodge (talk) 15:09, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Again Ferrylodge? You know darn well you are not supposed to get in trouble by being difficult and editing against consensus and engaging in contentitious edits and making insults. I would suggest that we should go to Arbcomm enforcement and expand the terms of the Arbcomm decision. The articles on which he is restricted should include all political articles and their talk pages and all abortion and reproduction articles and their talk pages. If he so much as offers a hint of dispute, block or ban him. That would slow him down a bit.--Filll (talk) 16:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Filll, this matter has been resolved, because the editor I was objecting against (Turtlescribber) has removed dozens of duplicative sentences from an article that he inserted duplicative sentences into. Please don't say that I have edited against consensus, or made contentious edits here. I am not the person who inserted dozens of duplicative sentences into an article. I think if you want to ban me, you ought to show that I have done something wrong, though I admit you may be successful in banning me regardless.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

FL, with all due respect, I have seen your RfCs and Arbcomm discussion. All I see is layer upon layer of dishonesty, lies and sleeze. Sleezy lawyer tactics, but the truth is dozens of other editors here on Misplaced Pages seem to have severe problems with you to the point of leaving Misplaced Pages altogether because of your bullying and harassment. I just know what I see. I have not researched in detail this recent episode. I just know your track history. And you and I know very well that being involved in articles where you have a long ugly history of problems is a very very very bad idea. So I am afraid I do not find your blandishments and pleading particularly compelling. So you are always right, and the other 50 or 100 or 200 editors who have problems with you always wrong? Seems a bit hard to swallow to me. But you just go right on trying to make that argument and see how it works for you, ok?--Filll (talk) 18:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You said it yourself, "I have not researched in detail this recent episode." So then why all this fighting here? Dredging up the past serves no purpose. Can we all just move along? Discussion is thataway --> Talk:Mitt Romney. Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

We're not discussing the article, as I state above, this is not the proper venue for content disputes. Your direction to an article talk page is missing the issue; Ferrylodge is being disruptive, violating NPA, etc. KillerChihuahua 19:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not know if FL is for Obama or not. I do not know the nature of this particular dispute that was about duplication. What I do know is that FL has had a long record, over a year's worth, of personal attacks and being extremely difficult for others to work with. I might agree with him on the actual details he is promoting. I do not agree with his agitation and bad behavior.--Filll (talk) 19:22, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it my job to mark this section as "resolved" or is that something that I should leave to an admin? I am satisfied that the concern that brought me to ANI has been resolved. The user who inserted dozens of duplicative sentences into the Mitt Romney article has removed dozens of sentences that were duplicative.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, as per ], it is unlikely that there would be any possibility of anyone involved being subject to restriction based on this discussion. If others wished to request the ruling be changed, however, that evidently is an option. John Carter (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

John Carter, Thatcher's response was in response to whether Ferrylodge can be prevented from editing politics related articles based on the arbitration committee decision placing him on restriction for abortion and pregnancy related articles. The answer to that is clearly no. However, that does not mean that no one can be placed on restriction as a result of the ongoing discussion. --Bobblehead 20:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

True. My statement was based on the fact that there has to date not been particularly clear consensus on this page that sanctions on this instance are likely. However, for the purposes of clarity, it probably would be in everyone's best interests that any further discussion cover only that matter. I am proposing a new RfC on the Romney page itself, and inviting views from as many relevant parties that might be interested as I can. John Carter (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Offensive quote

There has been much discussion about the Hezbollah userbox, and it has been deleted because it is offensive. I tried to bring up this issue there, but it was suggested I take it elsewhere.

However, there is another message that many would find offensive. It's on User:Boris_1991, one of the quotes that reads:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

So inflammatory was this quote, that it incited the Pope Benedict XVI Islam controversy. Even His Holiness says he found the quote "unacceptable".

Why then is wikipedia, after cracking down upon those who support Hezbollah, allowing others to label Islam (and by extension all Muslims) as "evil and inhuman"? Should we not ban this as we banned the Hezbollah userbox?Bless sins (talk) 04:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Boris 1991's user page does not violate Misplaced Pages:User page. Standards for userboxes are stricter than for user pages. Jecowa (talk) 05:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Asked him to remove it: , which should have been your first stop. Viridae 05:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"Standards for userboxes are stricter than for user pages". I've heard this from another user. What if someone merely copied and pasted the contents of a userbox into a quote? I don't see the difference it'd make.Bless sins (talk) 06:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(The following is as one user remembers and may be skewed by time and memory degregation.)

• Short answer: Offensive content is not allowed in userboxes to prevent Misplaced Pages from looking poorly.
• Long answer: Userboxes were first created to tag the language skills of Wikipedians so translators could easily be found. Userboxes were then expanded to be used to identify other useful information about editors, such as which editors are biology experts. In these days userboxes were stored in the template namespace. Then userboxes began to be created as jokes or to express users' opinions, such as "this user is an extraterrestrial" or "this user loves dogs". Some userboxes were offensive to some people, such as "this user eats infants" or "this user hates black people". Naturally, people protested this controversial use of userboxes. Since userboxes were stored in template namespace and reflected on Misplaced Pages as well as the individual users, controversial and potentially offensive userboxes were banned after much discussion. Even though divisive content had been banned, many people were still against userboxes. A long time later after much discussion, all userboxes deemed not useful for building an encyclopaedia were removed from the template namespace. Today, even though personal userboxes are restricted to existing in user space, they are still under the rule that prohibits free expression of offensive content, even though it doesn't make as much sense anymore, seeing that these userboxes would have to be stored in the user namespace. The only reason it could be said now that offensive content is allowed on user pages and not userboxes is that content in userboxes could be misconstrued as being representative of Misplaced Pages's opinion. Oh, by the way, the Hezbollah userbox you mentioned was stored in the main namespace, so that definitely had to be deleted. Jecowa (talk) 07:10, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This isn't really an incident, so perhaps we should continue the discussion elsewhere, however the page has been previously nominated for deletion. Given the user has stopped editing, if the page was renominated, I would 'vote' delete as his user page doesn't help promote a cooperative atmosphere. Addhoc (talk) 09:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

"Standards for userboxes are stricter than for user pages" is flat-out incorrect. A userbox, either in userspace or substed onto a user page, is part of a user page and subject to the exact same standards as other userpages. There are additional requirements on pages in the Template namespace, which is where the Hezbollah userbox was deleted. —Random832 17:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Userboxes prohibits anything divisive. Under this criteria User:Boris_1991's statement concerning Muhammad would not be allowed in a userbox as it was definitely divisive. As far as I can find in Misplaced Pages:User page, the closest thing that comes to prohibiting User:Boris_1991's statement concerning Muhammad in a user page is its prohibition of extensive use of polemical statements. One sentence is definitely not extensive. Jecowa (talk) 20:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

(FYP) This is WP:BURO run amok. He can say that, but just not in a box? What if it was a big box containing other things, like his entire user page? Is it our policy that rectangles have magic powers, or do we a policy on statements written inside pentagrams that I've just never run across? -- Kendrick7 22:06, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing putting that statement in any size box would be okay as long as it's not using one of the userbox templates. Jecowa (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As per Kendrick7, I too find the policy "standards for userboxes are different from standards for userpages" to be very peculiar. If this policy is indeed true, then it should be changed.Bless sins (talk) 19:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Apollo Victoria Theatre

Apollo Victoria Theatre, some advice please.

Text from this article was reported as a suspected copyright violation, last night. The article was (correctly) immediately deleted. I looked at the text and compared to the reported website. This was almost word-for-word the History section of the article. I restored the article, removed the offending text, deleted the article and restored the latest version to ensure that the copyviol was not available in the history.

Today, I have had a chance to investigate further and the bulk of the wiki text has been in place since at least 16 Dec 2005, subsequent amendments have been made by multiple editors to create a text which is identical to the current text on these people's website. Applying Occam's razor, it is more likely, the text here was copied from us. The basic question is how to handle this? Reinstate the text I believe to have been copied from us, with its complete edit history, or rewrite the article so, it doesn't infringe the now cr material that I think originated here?

A number of editors have worked hard to improve the London theatre histories and these texts are now appearing in copyright material on the web. Thanks for any advice you can offer. Kbthompson (talk) 11:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say reinstate and note on the external link that the copyright asserted there is actually copyfraud.   — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 11:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, I'll work out something later tonight. Kbthompson (talk) 18:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

125.26.162.120 (talk · contribs)

I blocked 125.24.* and 125.25.* previously, due to persistent vandalism. Range blocks (1 week) have expired last month, but strange edits to Singapore have occurred again. I am not confident that it is the same guy, but perhaps someone can keep an eye on them. --Rifleman 82 (talk) 12:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

user:CreationSCS

CreationSCS (talk · contribs) and his suspected sockpuppets (IP edits) has only made vandalizing edits. His greatest gem is change in the words of Ustaša WW II song when he has changed words so that this song on wiki now call for the death of Croatian president Stipe Mesić (and late primeminister Ivica Račan) . His other vandalism has been this . In this article he has deleted statement confirmed by 3 sources (first is on english language) which are speaking about Montenegro constitution. His last vandalism has been in article where he is again deleting statement with sources. I am tired of reverting his calling for president death and other shits so I ask that this user be blocked. One of his suspected sockpupets has been warned by me that he will be blocked if this vandalism do not stop . --Rjecina (talk) 15:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Now after my revert is better possible to see this word playing in the song --Rjecina (talk) 19:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I have NO "sockpuppets". I am a new user.

Second of all, this Rječina is propagating lies about me not just here, but on vandalism and talk page as well. I AM CORRECTING THE SONG'S WORDS. This song of fascist Croat singer Thompson INDEED DOES call for death of Stjepan Mesic, and asks a dog to !$@% Ivica Racan's mother.

Then this user claims I'm vandalizing the Serbs article, when he makes no sense. He linked to a journalist report and to a pro-Serbian complaining party in Montenegro WITHOUT EVEN READING THE CONSTITUTION. I am tired of this.

I wish to point out that Rjecina is well aware of all this and intentionaly wants to block me because of a dispute I have with him on Croatian wikipedia, out his pure furstration. He intentionally says that I "called for death of Croatian president" because he hopes that you would discard me and believe these outragous claims. CreationSCS (talk) 21:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Can either one of you cite a reliable source as to the correct lyrics? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I have shown 3 examples of his vandalism edits. Because I have not expected that there will be question about lurics I do not have source here (but I will look) but on other side for his 2 others vandalism edits we are having english language sources which user:CreationSCS has deleted from article. In article Political entities inhabited or ruled by Serbs he is deleting statement confirmed by 3 sources that Serbs are minority in Montenegro ( this is english language source ). Similar thing he is doing in article Lewis MacKenzie where he is deleting statement confirmed by english language source that this UN general has recieved money of Serbian lobby. For the end I will only add that article Serbs of Croatia is protected because of his vandal edits (IP address). What is more needed that user be declared vandal and blocked ? --Rjecina (talk) 22:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I now have many interesting data about song. The Centre for peace in Balkan is clearly stating that song is from 1942 (version which has been on wiki on 23 June 2007 . Late primeminister of Croatia Ivica Račan is born in 1945 !!. Version which CreationSCS is writing on wiki is version of Croatian band Thompson of 21 century. This is english language source --Rjecina (talk) 22:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking the lyrics are copyrighted and shouldn't be in the article, anyway. Corvus cornix_talk 03:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you. In my thinking article need to be deleted but this will never happen....--Rjecina (talk) 03:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Problem user Oni Ookami Alfador (talk · contribs)

(1) He's randomly deleting huge chunks of the floppy disk article (even though I objected; I stated at least some of those chunks should be saved, as they are useful). I also requested we get consensus from other editors before deleting one-quarter of the article. He refused.

(2) On the talk page he is using phrases like "for christ's sake" which I find highly, highly offensive. As offensive as if he had used the n-word against me or my family, and I think this user needs some kind of admonishment to tone done (and most importantly cooperate) with other editors. Thank you. ---- Theaveng (talk) 16:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that both of you need to stop edit warring or you will both be blocked for 3RR. You also need to stop calling his good-faith edits vandalism. Nakon 16:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And both of you have now been blocked for 3RR. Nakon 16:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Your edits are problematic because they introduce original research into the article, not that there is enough of it already. But either way, instead of constantly reverting (which gets you into the WP:3RR) trap, how about taking it to the talk page to discuss the changes? x42bn6 Talk Mess 17:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Copyright??

If someone is posting copy and paste material from a website and claiming it is verifiable source material, is that vandalims or at least an infraction? If so, does the 3RR rule apply? I've removed the material three times which means I cannot remove it again, but my understanding is it shouldn't be there in the first place. It's on List of Las Vegas episodes IrishLass (talk) 19:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Copyright violations can be considered vandalism after the poster has been duly warned that posting copyrighted material violates Misplaced Pages policy (WP:COPYVIO). Someguy1221 (talk) 19:53, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

They were warned under an IP and then signed in and used an old account to revert. Can some else just revert so I don't violate 3RR? IrishLass (talk) 19:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Done, based on your word. Pairadox (talk) 20:02, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I suggest you go through that page and remove all the redlinks for individual episodes. Pairadox (talk) 20:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Will do. I tried once a long time ago but it got reverted. Thanks for the revert. IrishLass (talk) 20:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, removing copyright violations is an exception to 3RR. —Random832 20:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

True, but I can understand her reasoning for not wanting to even go there. Pairadox (talk) 20:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've already removed the info three times, I don't want to push the limits. Thank you for the assistance. I've removed the redlinks. IrishLass (talk) 21:18, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Chiefsfan364 account compromised

Account believed compromised, as per contributions and this article's history. Please consider a temporary block until the situation is resolved. haz (talk) 20:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Blocked pending resolution. Nakon 20:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Indef blocked reduced to 24h for vandalism. Nakon 21:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Umm, does anyone else not see User_talk:Chiefsfan364#Hello.3F as an indication of him having control of his account? John Reaves 10:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Page move vandalism by User:Moose Sheriff

Compromised pages include America, Hartford, Connecticut, Paris, Worcester. See . --Polaron | Talk 20:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Has already been indefinitely blocked. Kusma (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think everything's been cleaned up. WilyD 20:43, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Something is still wrong with America and Worcester was a copy and paste move so its history is now missing. --Polaron | Talk 20:46, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Worcester is showing a history for me, and what's wrong with America? WilyD 20:49, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I just fixed America. Somebody had deleted the wrong page. Kusma (talk) 20:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Worcester has been fixed by Slakr so I think that's all of it. --Polaron | Talk 20:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Religious debates over Harry Potter (again)

This anonymous user has received a one-week block, but has recommenced an edit war using a different account. Serendious 20:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Would it make sense to semi-protect? —Random832 21:37, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

At this point, I think probably yes. Serendious 22:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

No. When we have a troublemaker, we block the user. Leave the article alone. Raul654 (talk) 22:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Raul. For context to those not familiar, the IP editor is adding long amounts of extraneous information about the way the early christians adapted extant holidays and incorporated them into the christian faith, like Yule and Christmas, and so on. ThuranX (talk) 22:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Long term abuse/SummerThunder: he's back

Sock-puppet edit warrior SummerThunder (talk · contribs) has returned from what was apparently only a several-month-long vacation with these edits. Please be on the lookout for similar behavior at his other favorite articles, listed in the above-linked dossier. Thanks. --Dynaflow babble 21:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Please keep watch University of California, Riverside and University of California, Riverside campus ST currently active there. Going offline. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amerique (talk • contribs) 01:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

75.3.224.238 (talk · contribs) now. Corvus cornix_talk 03:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate (GROSS!!) picture in Misplaced Pages archive showing up in Google Earth for London, Ontario

Hi all, Not sure where else to go with this one. You know how Misplaced Pages articles with coordinate templates show up on Google Earth? Well, while using GE to take a look at London, Ontario, I noticed, in addition to the article on the city, another article that came up as this WP help desk archive. The popup window in GE showing this article also shows a photo of a penis with a couple of big gross chancres. Yikes! The archive contains a discussion of how to find coordinates in GE and add them to articles using templates, but the example code was nowikiied. I also didnt' see the photo on the actual archive page, so don't know why it's showing up in GE. Anybody help with this? Thanks, Doonhamer (talk) 00:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The help desk archive you're talking about had an attempt to link to the image, but the editor didn't specify a colon before the image name. When viewing the help desk archive, the MediaWiki software doesn't display the image inline because it's on the image blacklist and could be used for vandalism. However, as far as I can tell, Google Earth uses its own rendering engine for Misplaced Pages content. (Or does it? I'm not 100% sure.) Apparently, that rendering engine is more than happy to render otherwise-blacklisted images inline. I edited the archive so it contains links to the image rather than an attempt to actually put the image inline. As far as erasing that image from your mind goes, though, I think you're on your own. --Elkman 02:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Cheers for that. I can't imagine that that archive page should be showing up at all on Google Earth though. If GE does have its own rendering engine, would it also ignore our nowiki tags around the coord templates, and pull in the archive page? I thought about removing the coord templates from the archive, but I didn't want to possibly go against policy (editing an archive seems to be an action at cross purposes to itself). Is that an option? At any rate, I cleaned out the memory and disk cache in my Google Earth app, restarted the app, and navigated back to London, ON. The image is still visible. Ugh. I do remember reading at GE that the Misplaced Pages articles are only updated periodically, not continually (that's why new articles with coords can take a while (weeks) to show up). Unfortunately, I just don't know enough about how either WP or GE works to resolve this quickly. Doonhamer (talk) 04:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and modified the archive page, replacing the braces around the coordinate templates for London ON with parentheses. That should stop GE from rendering the the archive page at its next update (if that is indeed what was causing it). Even if it is, it's likely the changes in GE won't appear until the next time GE updates its WP coordinate database. If an administrator knows a better/quicker way to resolve this, or a better forum than this noticeboard for this issue, please advise. Doonhamer (talk) 04:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks as if Google Earth has got rid of the link. There are five articles associated in that area on Google Earth and currently none have offensive images. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 07:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

What a relief. I restarted GE, cleaned out the cache again, but was still seeing the image, but after restarting my computer, I'm also not seeing the drawn-in archive page and its stomach-churning photo. If no one else is seeing it, I suppose this particular issue is closed, but it makes me wonder whether there are other internal Misplaced Pages pages with coordinate templates in them that are being rendered in Google Earth? Doonhamer (talk) 13:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I am gravely concerned over the handling of User:Eonon

So I have to ask:

• What was so urgent about Eonon's flawed contributions that we had to reach for our biggest flamethrowers before talking to him?
• Why are users who are not familiar with speedy deletion criteria using a semi-automated patrol program like TW?
• Why are adminstrators not investigating before fulfilling requests to delete user contributions?
• Why would an administrator block a user for a username infraction without ensuring a message on the user's talkpage was left first, asking them to change it themselves?
• Am I just too sensitive? Maybe all this is really quite Okay?
• HOW CAN WE AVOID THIS IN THE FUTURE?

JERRY _contribs 00:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't see any of the articles that the user was creating, but they were apparently making COI spam edits to an article with the same name as their User name, in such a manner as to indicate that the User name was being used to advertise. That's a violation of the Username guidelines, and the "usernameblock" text that they'll see when they try to edit will explain all that. Their spam article was deleted, the spam on their User page was deleted, and the copyright violating images were deleting. What's the question again? Corvus cornix_talk 03:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, Jeske went to the trouble of explaining it all (c/w relevant links) on the talk page as an addendum to one of the template messages. As Corvus put it, what was the question again? --WebHamster 03:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The questions are those little bits of text in between the bullets (big dots) and the "?"'s above. JERRY _contribs 03:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

As but but I will add my account. The reason why I reported him was after an COI tag was given to that user, he proceeded to remove it (isn't this considered to be a violation) and as a result, I had to give him a warning, which he ignored on number of occasion. Not to mention that I remember that the page reads like a advert for his site. I CSD'd the pictures because they were associated with the deleted article. As for my comment for the TW, I sometimes find it a little bit confusing to use as these buttons doesn't indicate what this and that button does, also with the five levels of vandalism warning when three is needed to report a vandal to be blocked. Willirennen (talk) 03:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Is there a reason why account creation should be blocked? I have not done this when blocking company or corporate names, even when they've been used promotionally, but I don't spend a lot of time in the blocking arena. --Moonriddengirl 04:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If it's normal usernameblocking, I allow account creation, but if it's hard blocking a username, then it's usual to block account creation and enable autoblock. bibliomaniac15 04:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that account creation should not be blocked, unless they return with a new account and spam again. Corvus cornix_talk 04:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

OrangeMike, do you have any objections to Eonon's block being revised to allow him to register an account within username policy? --Moonriddengirl 12:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Judging by what the user with TW says above, he is not yet ready to be using it. DGG (talk) 04:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree. Willirennen, please voluntarily remove twinkle from your monobook.js. —Random832 05:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

What is required to close this incident?

As the initiator of this incident report, I would be satisifed that it was resolved if all of the following were done:

• User:Willirennen either remove twinkle from his monobook or agree not to use the features for a period of time that will be adequate for him to study the CSD categories and other related policies, and a mentor assigned to advise him on when he can use it again (I volunteer).
• The block of Eonon is revised to allow account creation.
• User:Eonon's user talk page blanked and only the uw-ublocked template readded Eonon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
• User:Orangemike acknowledge this incident report (no action or detailed response comment required)
• East718 has already replied on my talk page and I am satisfied with his reply

JERRY _contribs 16:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed the templated messages from Eonon's talk page, but left the welcome message and some comments. With regards to East718's comment on your talk page, perhaps he would wish to peruse Misplaced Pages:No angry mastodons#Edit when you're at your best?  :) I would also like to see the other things considered: TWINKLE, the block on Eonon and Orangemike's acknowledgement (and perhaps comments :-).

Also, with regards to one of your original questions, Jerry, "Am I just too sensitive? Maybe all this is really quite Okay?", I do not think that this incident indicates that you are too sensitive, and I do not think that this incident is okay. I think biting newbies is a very systemic problem, which needs to be curbed. Thanks for your report here. --Iamunknown 20:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I modified the block on Eonon. Orangemike does not appear to be around.JERRY _contribs 21:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The only purpose for my requirirng orangemike to acknowledge this incident is to ensure that he was aware of our proposed sctions (and actions we already hasve taken, now) so that he had an opportunity to object and provide information we might not have had available. He could do this by signing this page, replying-to or deleting the notifications on his user page, or making any edit to wikipedia, since the mediawiki interface will tell him there are messages on his user talk page. JERRY _contribs 11:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Since the block has been modified to allow account creation (good call on that, I think, since Mike is not here to respond quickly), I've left the user a modified version of {{uw-ublock}}, prefaced with a personal note to explain why it's there, on his or her talk page. He or she may find it useful, since it contains specifics about changing account name. I also left a note explaining how to place {{helpme}} on his or her page for quick attention. If you (or anyone reading this) should think that modified block template might in itself seem bitey (totally not my intention), please feel free to remove it. My hope is simply to clarify things. --Moonriddengirl 22:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps someone might also email the user? to let him know about all this and that he's ok with a new username? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I already did that right after I modified the block. JERRY _contribs 11:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Concerns regarding Melanie McGuire article

I was checking Category:Wikipedians looking for help and noticed this. I believe there are several privacy concerns that should be addressed as well as possibly protecting the page. I would appreciate more eyes on this. Regards.--12 Noon  03:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The user that wrote the comments seems to have some legitimate complaints. This looks like a clear WP:BLP violation. The article in question was deleted as a BLP violation it looks like. What more is to be done? Do we need to redact the users comments as themselves revealing private info? It seems a sad story, but what further action should we as admins need to take? --Jayron32|talk|contribs 07:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Deleting the article appears to resolve most of the situation. – Luna Santin (talk) 11:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This appears to have been settled on the user's talk page so this thread can probably be marked resolved. Regards.--12 Noon  20:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Return of User:Mmbabies

68.92.33.104 (talk · contribs) Corvus cornix_talk 03:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

See WP:LTA/MMB for the litany of IP addresses he has used since he was last reported to WP:ABUSE. -- Gridlock Joe (talk) 03:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Now issuing death threats - . Corvus cornix_talk 04:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

And another death threat - . Someone needs to contact the Houston police? Corvus cornix_talk 04:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

you cant be seriosu they're is no need to coontact the Michigan police it sis obviously just an emotinally-unstable user who has taken some of the discusions a bit too muchto heart. it owuld be more effieincet and more effective to deal with im here on wikipedia rather rthan gettinga SWAT team deployed to hsi house, which just might pis him off enough so that he'll come over to your house and tryto harm you and your family. if the threats ezcalated, then i would recomend police internveiton but right now he should be warned and if that faisl he should be blocked. Smith Jones (talk) 04:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Uh, what? You also need to read the history of Mmbabies before you comment. Corvus cornix_talk 04:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

i think you are overactingi have no t read the history but i have recieved death threats on the internet before and there are really not that scary. Smith Jones (talk) 04:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

if you look at his "threats" you wil not ice that they are generic threats made by millions of trols and vandals on tiwkipedia every single fricking day, he deifnitely deserves to be IP-blocked permanent-lieka but caling the police would jus t be a waste of time sincetheyd have a hard time tracking him down and there i s very little that ecan do to stophim from hurting or killing other peopl basde on a few weird coments on anencyclopedia. Smith Jones (talk) 04:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have great difficulty understanding you when you write like that. Can you use Firefox or something with a built-in spell-checker? As far as Mmbabies goes, this user has made many, many death threats on Misplaced Pages. It already has escalated, as the report shows. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

He has done this for a year, Smith Jones. I think it's pretty well justified for a police report. We've taken every action we can possibly take on this user, including range blocks for AT&T's Houston node, meaning for many users in the nation's fourth largest city, signing up for a username is compulsory for them to edit, and abuse reports to that provider that have gone unanswered. He has attacked my talkpage too and frankly we're all pretty sick of it, especially on WP:TVS and those dealing with Christian television (his favorite targets). Trust me, if this was just 'some kid', he would've been bored by now and gone away, but this user has left personal information, addresses and telephone numbers all over his sock edits. That's not 'generic' as you say, but dangerous. Nate · (chatter) 23:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Will be sending an abuse report to their ISP in a moment. May not accomplish anything, but does get the problem on record. Will leave other responses to other people. – Luna Santin (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Repeated edit problems from moving IP

Hi - I have come across a problem and not sure of the best way to address it. There is a section of information in the article The Rain Tapes, called "Distribution of Material" (its at the bottom). Over the past month, there has been a user who repeatedly deletes this section (see history). It is not a registered user, but it seems that the IP address used by this person changes each time they edit (perhaps using internet cafes??). This has led to a problem in sorting out the situation. I and others have left messages on earlier talk pages, but then different IP addresses are used in subsequent edits. I have invited the person to explain or discuss the deletion in the 'edit summary' box when reverting, but this has never occurred. This is getting rather tiresome for me and a number of other users constantly reverting this deleting. Is there any action that can be taken?? I was thinking perhaps asking for semi-protection to at elast encourage the person to register and then engage in discussion on their talk page?? Any advice?

Some previous warnings at various Ip addressed: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:172.203.120.228 http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:172.188.169.180 http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:172.202.91.35 http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:172.200.159.132 http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:172.141.93.62

Thanks JKW111 (talk) 04:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest requesting "semi-protection" at WP:RFPP. I put in a request here. / edg ☺ ☭ 11:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Protection has been granted for 1 month. If this becomes a problem again, request another. Be sure to mention previous protection, and that the anon editor has been issued multiple warnings (diffs help). / edg ☺ ☭ 11:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, all these IP addresses seem to be via America Online. This implies a home user with a non-static IP address, which is common with home DSL (and almost always the case with dialup). I doubt much effort is being made to change IP addresses; the user may be unaware of their address changing. (Someone else probably knows much more about how AOL grants IP addresses than I do.) / edg ☺ ☭ 11:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Utcursch

User:Utcursch is abusing authority and showing discrimination towards Hindus. User:Utcursch is a Sikh Extremist who is influencing hate between Hindu and other religon communities.

due to 1984 terrorism in India. you can see page Bhindranwale who was a famous Rebel Saint who kills hindus, doesnt need to be locked and has been locked for a really long time. User:Utcursch has shown discrimination to me as well and has caused tensions between religons.User:99.237.253.131

... HalfShadow (talk) 05:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• This item was originally posted at the top of this page, and I have taken the liberty of moving it to its proper chronological location; and I have checked- it did look like this originally. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 15:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Date warrior/ honorific deleter/ possible sockpuppet

I am concerned about the conduct of a new autoconfirmed user, Simplonicity (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Although he represents himself as a new account as of 12-24-07, he has focused exclusively on making edits in an area of long-term controversy. This began with removal of honorifics and proceeded swiftly to date-warring, first by creating a new template Template:History of the Chinese, created solely to replace Template:History of China with a BC/AD version of the same template, and putting it into articles against consensus and without discussion. This should be compared to the actions of Foula (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) who left the project not long before Simplonicity arrived. During the last 24 hours Simplonicity has date-warred numerous articles frequently leaving the misleading edit summary "datings conventions were mixed, consolidated on one". His consolidations always consist of changing BCE/CE to BC/AD, never the other way round, frequently in articles where BCE/CE is far more numerous. (There are more removals of honorifics and era style changes that occurred while I was in the process of filing this ANI.)

Simplonicity has also altered two important templates, Template:HistoryOfSouthAsia and Template:South Asian history without the slightest discussion or any semblance of an attempt at consensus in such a way as to facilitate his date warring. On at least one article, Middle kingdoms of India, he began by changing the article, which overwhelmingly favored BCE/CE, to BC/AD, then used this change as an excuse to change to his preferred version of the template. Simplonicity has done all this in spite of being specifically familiarized with Misplaced Pages's policies on date warring on his talk page.

I also ask that this pattern of abuse be compared with the following blocked or disappeared users.

• Carnun (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Chooserr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Compower (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Jpetersen46321 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Nownownow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

--Steven J. Anderson (talk) 04:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Additional note: In at least one instance Simplonicity changed CE in the title of a book to AD. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 05:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Article abuse of Stan Polley

Since last November, the following IP addresses have inserted the line "soulless bastard" at the end of the biography of Stan Polley. Although the person is quoting a line from a suicide note that had referred to Polley, the insertion by the following IPs attaches this as a personal opinion in agreement with the note. It is a persistent issue with the article and it needs administration attention. Thank you.-- ZincOrbie (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• 163.231.6.85
• 163.231.6.88
• 163.231.6.86
• 163.231.6.66
• 163.231.6.67
• 163.231.6.68
• 163.231.6.65

The abuse is continuing and I had to make another revert today.-- ZincOrbie (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Another revert again today.-- ZincOrbie (talk) 03:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

IP abuse at Arbcom workshop

There's an anonymous IP user, 69.76.37.158, attacking other users at Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Bluemarine/Workshop (in multiple sections of the page). This user's posts, both there and at Talk:Matt Sanchez, make me suspect it is banned User:Pwok. Would someone run a checkuser to try to confirm or deny this identity and semi-protect the workshop page? Thanks. Aleta (Sing) 06:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I've protected the page, after waiting a little while for the IP to withdraw the attack. I would also like to know if the IP is a regular user, in case the user is related to the arbcom case. John Vandenberg (talk) 07:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. One of the issues in the case is long term baiting by single purpose IPs and accounts, usually short lived. Durova 07:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Although the language is strikingly similar, I don't think this is banned User:Pwok at work here. Pwok was infamous for a dozen or so changes at once, as he refused to use the preview button and tweaked his posts a word or two at a time. Also, he used a Comcast IP address in Seattle, while this is a RoadRunner IP address in Wisconsin. A checkuser would be nice, but I don't think it will reveal much, since there are no other addresses with which to compare; I don't think it is any of the regular editors editing under an IP address. Horologium (talk) 14:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for your insight, Horologium. Whoever this IP is, s/he is continuing to post comments very insulting to any editor who has ever worked on the Matt Sanchez article at Talk:Matt Sanchez, essentially accusing all of us of conspiring to lie about Matt and censor the truth about his "40 videos". Aleta (Sing) 19:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

While it's not likely to be Pwok, I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the handful of contributors to his attack site. (Exercising editorial restraint; it's not the first description that ran through my mind.) Can we just temp-block to IP to make him go away while we are running the arbitration case? I had not planned to continue adding evidence, but I may reconsider if Sanchez (and good-faith editors who disagree with the IP) continue to be attacked by halfwit unregistered editors. Horologium (talk) 20:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Socks4life

This user added themselves to Category: Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Jlomcc (). Bizarre, to say the least. Any admin want to handle this? shoy 06:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Blocked, they quite literally asked for it. Mr.Z-man 06:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User:TNTPRO

Every edit this user has made has been blatant vandalism Special:Contributions/TNTPRO. They've been reverted, but I suggest a block, pending the outcome of whatever the sockpuppet case is. MBisanz 07:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Blocked indefinately as a vandalism only account. In the future, use WP:AIV for clear vandalism like this. He was adequately warned, and continued. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 07:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Philippe

Philippe (talk · contribs) is removing listings from Misplaced Pages:Usernames for administrator attention because the editors haven't edited yet. Are we really requiring that inappropriate user names be allowed to edit before they get blocked? Corvus cornix_talk 07:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There was some fairly in depth discussion about this in the last couple of months - I'll try to find some diffs - but my recollection is that we were requiring contribs of some type to avoid folks who were just creating names to see them listed there. If I'm in error, I'm happy to stop - but if a name is created, with no contributions, and it's not incredibly inappropriate, what's the harm? - Philippe | Talk 07:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The harm is that by blocking before they start editing, we preempt the inappropriate user from starting to edit and getting their inappropriate username in edit histories. Plus, 1-you're frustrating a good faith listing by an editor who found the user name offensive, and 2-you're requiring people to wait with bated typing fingers to keep checking to see if the user with the inappropriate name starts editing before you can list them for an inappropriate name. Corvus cornix_talk 07:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If the name is blatantly inappropriate, I totally agree. If so, I block on sight. However, if it is marginally inappropriate, and there are no contributions, I'm inclined to wait for them to edit before blocking, creating a talk page for them to issue a block notice, etc. I'm happy to change my actions if I'm out of calibration, but I seem to recall some pretty aggressive discussion about this. - Philippe | Talk 07:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Great. So, if I come across an inappropriate username, I can't list it until they've edited, so I have to squirrel the name away somewhere in my User space or in my memory so that I can check for their edits in the future. Corvus cornix_talk 07:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the type of username. If it's something obviously foul, no reason to wait for edits. In the case of "promotional" usernames, such as the ones Philippe removed, they are often borderline enough to justify waiting for edits, to see if the account is indeed being used for promotion. There's also something about WP:AGF and WP:BITE in there somewhere. --Bongwarrior (talk) 08:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

For diff purposes, the discussion is question is here at the section called "No-edit reports". It was hotly disputed, so perhaps it's time for wider input from the community. I certainly understand your feelings. I tend to be of the idea that we shouldn't create talk pages (and perpetual histories) for accounts that never edit. - Philippe | Talk 08:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be a question of how blatantly bad the usernames are; I notice my threshold seems to be higher than some others, recently. In any questionable cases, we can always watch a potentially suspicious user for behavior that will make their good or bad faith more clear. – Luna Santin (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Jack Merridew

• Jack Merridew (talk · contribs)

User has reverted my edits 5 minutes and 3 minutes after I made my edits. These were the users 2nd and 3rd edits today - rather unusual. Blanking of episode lists and character lists is common practice at the moment.

User has also voted on FLRC just 13 minutes after myself.

-- Cat 10:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

White Cat has redirected the lists after TTN merged the characters to the list. This is an obvious WP:POINT. As to the timing, I had not even realized it, I just fired up laptop and looked at what was going on. --Jack Merridew 10:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Coincidences... I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences. So why is it that TTN is allowed to make such edits and why is it that I am not allowed? -- Cat 10:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Is that a reference to the movie Magnolia? --Jack Merridew 10:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Just take contested redirects to AfD; all these edit wars are getting to be more than a bit disruptive. We have AfD for a reason. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

All Oh My Goddess! character articles (nominated for redirectification by Jack Merridew and redirectified by TTN) and episode articles (nominated for redirectification by TTN and redirectified by Jack Merridew) were bulk redirectified.

As visible with this edit TTN makes such edits. Special:Contributions/TTN has more examples of mass rectifying. User has over 1000 edits this month - almost all mass redirectifying. If there is nothing wring with that, there is nothing wrong with my edits.

-- Cat 10:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Redirecting articles, in itself, not generally a problem; edit warring over that redirect, potentially far more problematic. I'm not intending to single you out in particular, I've seen more than a few people doing this recently. Contested redirects should be discussed, not brute forced. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have not reverted. Not once. Jack Merridew reverted twice on this particular case. If you check TTNs past 5000 or 500 or even 50 edits you will see plenty of examples of brute forcing. -- Cat 10:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If you think the articles should be deleted, AfD is freely available; other than that, what's the issue, here? – Luna Santin (talk) 10:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

TTN is mass blanking articles had been doing so for months. The problem is me trying to commit similar edits which upset Jack Merridew. -- Cat 11:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not upset, I just undid your disruptive edits (on two different lists). --Jack Merridew 11:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Will you revert similar edits by TTN? -- Cat 11:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If he restores your redirects, at this point, I would probably talk about it; here, where ever. --Jack Merridew 11:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

What about this? -- Cat 11:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea what the feck that is. --Jack Merridew 11:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a diff where TTN recently blanked the content of an entire "list of characters" article. -- Cat 14:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Sarcasm rarely wins folks to your point of view. --Jack Merridew 14:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

He redirected the merge targets, removing everything out of pique. I don't think anyone was advocating that. --Jack Merridew 10:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Saw you mentioned that (haven't taken too close a look, but assuming your description is accurate that sounds worth discussion) -- I figure the AfD onus should be on those who want article(s) removed, similar to the situation with contested prods. – Luna Santin (talk) 10:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? TTN, Jack Merridew and other members of the club vote together manipulating AfDs. Happened before many times. -- Cat 10:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that his disruptive behavior is the issue here and should be the focus of this discussion. This is far from the first instance of such conduct by this user. --Jack Merridew 12:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

So if I redirectify articles thats "disruption" if you or TTN does it thats good conduct? -- Cat 14:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It is the perceived intent that is the determinative factor. --Jack Merridew 14:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

See: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Belldandy for the prior fit. And note that it went to DRV, too. --Jack Merridew 10:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yet Belldandy is now a redirect along with every other character. Why can't I make edits such as this yet TTN can? -- Cat 10:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

White Cat, it's pretty clear that those redirects you made was an attempt at scorching the Earth because you couldn't get your way. This isn't the first time you've done this either.

Also, if you have been paid any attention to WT:ANIME, you will find that there has been discussion about merging episode, and to a lesser extent character, articles that are unable to independently establish their notability. Neither TTN nor Jack Merridew have been a significant party to either of those discussions nor are they members to WP:ANIME.

As for the Beck article, I've reverted the redirect because the content of the article had not been merged into the target article, no equivalent content exists on the target article, and there has been no discussion to simply blank the redirected article either. --Farix (Talk) 12:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hah! I make edits like TTN and people yell at me! I do not believe TTN has even read those articles. No human being can read that fast. I did merge it in a TTN-like manner. I removed the crufty non-notable material off. Link article has all the "notable" material which may also be redirectified. -- Cat 14:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you are gaming the system. Seraphim 14:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

well since the redirectors have been doing it for months without sanction it would appear to be the aproved method.Geni 01:08, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This behaviour is childish and WP:POINTY. If you believe the method that has been used, to be wrong (like White Cat has made clear), then you do not use the same method yourself. When have two wrong's ever made a right? Seraphim 01:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying you view their method as wrong? If so why are you not takeing action against it?Genisock2 (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally, no, I don't view their method as wrong. They are fixing a problem that just wasn't recognised unitl now...or rather it was recognised but no action was taken. There are two sides to this and believe me, I can sympathise with both. Many argue, "people come to wikipedia for tv episode articles and that's why our encylopedia is popular and useful". I can appreciate that and it has occurred to me that if we destroy the usefulness of our encylopedia, then in turn, do we de-value it? But on the other hand, making these articles comply with our policies is a good thing and there's a very good argument that, by removing non-compliant material (non-comliant because it is a WP:NOT#PLOT regurgitation), we increase the quality and respectability of wikipedia. Did you see the Smallville (season 1) page that Bignole wrote? That is the sort of high quality content we should be aiming for.

My point was that White Cat views their methods as wrong, so for him to use them, shows he is making a point. That does not benefit the encylopedia. Seraphim 02:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's an idea; if you take your two lists to Afd, I'll abide by the consensus reached there. I promise to not oppose deletion. (not promising not to comment; this offer good for a limited time only. Batteries not included. Void on Texas.) --Jack Merridew 14:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Useerpage

This two inflammatory userboxes are present in different userpages. I do not know how these two userbox can be deleted. Please help. A discussion is going on in Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:MQDuck/userboxes/Right To Resist. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 10:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You know the 2005 userbox war happened for a reason. Political userboxes and religions userboxes are not allowed. That was the consensus back then and I see no evidence of a change in consensus. People have started creating political userboxes in their userspace. I however heavly doubt ANI will offer a solution. -- Cat 10:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Smoth 007 has a userbox supporting independence of Palestine and the above-=mentioned userboxes are present in User:Noor Aalam. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You would think that someone who complains daily about userboxes (yet wanted to create controversial ones himself) would have learned about deletion process by now rather than complain here everytime something bugs him. EconomicsGuy (talk) 11:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You write: I do not know how these two userbox can be deleted. Please help. Yet you link to a MfD that you are aware of. Given that, what do you think the proper procedure would be? EconomicsGuy (talk) 11:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is that this two userboxes are not constructed in one particular page. The userpages on which the userboxes are present, are written in raw codes. There is no specific template of these two userboxes. So what I need to do now? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I cannot use MfD here because the userboxes are not constructed in a specific page. So in which process these will be deleted? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing as long as it isn't worse than it is now. If larger parts of the user pages turn into campaign posters then use MfD. You are very unlikely to get more out of this than sympathy for the idea that user pages shouldn't be used for this. Lots of people have the suppoprt for Israel boxes yet nothing happens to them - it takes more than that when they aren't transcluded on there - mainly because the lack of transclusion makes it harder to quickly list everyone who believes this or that. EconomicsGuy (talk) 13:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There isn't much wrong here. Sure, they could be considered inflamatory, but they aren't as badd as some. Though I would watch that userpage to make sure it doesn't get worse.--Phoenix-wiki 14:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I really think this kind of thing is the definition of gaming the system. -- Cat 14:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh FFS give it a freakin' rest. If there are support of <insert faction here> userboxes then it should be okay to have userboxes supporting the other side. WP does not take a political side, if you continually delete one side without the other then you are in effect determining a WP bias. So quit with the userbox posse and go do some editing. --WebHamster 15:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. According to your argument, a userbox can be created with a text "This user support nuclear war". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You are telling that it should not biased, i.e. it should not be biased towards peace, or disruption. So the equation becomes:

• Peace = biased
• Disruption = biased
• Not supporting peace, not supporting disruption = Neutrality. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This two userboxes are definitely inflammatory. Who occupied Tibet? Who occupied Chechnya? What is going on in Tibet and Chechnya are sucsessionist movement and userboxes supporting them can not be tolerated. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 15:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Can't be tolerated by you, the rest of the editorship seems remarkably unconcerned. Look, they aren't hate boxes they are expressions of belief. They doen't say they are right, they don't say what should happen, they don't say kill the ruskies or the chinks. They say that the user believes in whatever they are saying. That is not inflammatory. Now please get off your high-horse and do something useful with your time. --WebHamster 15:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The practice is that a userbox can speak against, but only in favor. "This user supports GW Bush" is an acceptable userbox. "This user supports the impeachment of GW Bush" is not acceptable asa userbox. A userbox can support the american Army, or for that matter the Iraqi insurgents. We have no business deciding which one is an instrument of oppression. A user can not say: I support killing the American invaders" -- or for that matter "I support killing the Iraqi terrorists". DGG (talk) 19:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It looks an awful lot like User:Otolemur crassicaudatus is trying to make a WP:POINT about the deletion of several of his userboxes here. Which is a bad idea. MastCell 21:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

Right March.com radio broadcaster Bill Greene, who edits here as User:Profg, has made a podcast from an anti-liberal anti-Darwinist movement "conservative viewpoint" available at http://web.mac.com/profg/iWeb/Site/Podcast/7D1AFD6C-C07F-11DC-B69C-000A959E8368.html discussing Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. The podcast opens suggesting using google to search for evolution or intelligent design, and you'll find Misplaced Pages near the top results, "But let me tell you, there's an incredible liberal bias there" then describes WP as being mostly edited by students and academics who don't need to spend their time trying to make a living, filling their heads with "liberal mush". Near the end of the podcast he says "But I wanna tell how how you can take action on this... The first thing you can do, on the issue of intelligent design, is go to wikipedia.org and go to, say, the section on intelligent design, and read it, and see if you could improve it. Or maybe it's the page on evolution, or creationism. Go to one of these pages and see if you can improve it. Anyone is allowed to edit it. There's a little bit of a learning curve, but really, it's supposed to be their premises, be bold, go right in there and improve it, but within five minutes, what you have written will be completely reworded, or kicked out. If you go to the discussion page and try to talk about it, you will be slammed. And if you get a little bit out of hand, because it's easy to get upset about these kind of things, you'll be kicked out. You're history. But you know what? Get a whole bunch of your friends to all do it at once. Everyone get on the phone in a conference call, or maybe get your iChat going or something, and everyone go in at once, because they can't stop, say, a dozen people, or 24 people, or 50 people, or a hundred people if they all come in at once and say 'no, we're going to do this' and they're concerted about it. Take action! Get it done!" ... dave souza, talk 11:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the case - is the identity with User:Profg proven? In that case, a good long block/ban is in order, as he was apparently already under parole for previous disruption, and this is as clear a case of disruptive behaviour as you can get. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

- it's self-admitted. Adam Cuerden 12:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Under these circumstances, and considering the existing parole imposed by User:B after a previous ban proposal (see User talk:Profg), I'd be willing to block for a longish period. How long shall we say? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Still no block, though. And to make this perfectly clear, the precise nature of this person's ideology is irrelevant. It's the attempt to canvass for a POV push that's important. Durova 13:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I was just waiting for a bit of further input. There's no hurry. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is the last ANI discussion Adam Cuerden 13:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to take any action and don't really care one way or another what anyone does here except to say (1) by linking the podcast here, you've probably substantially increased his listenership, (2) a block would be punitive not preventative (not that I'm expressing an opinion on whether or not there is anything wrong with that, just that it is what it is), (3) if he is blocked, do a checkuser, and (4) if a block is made, make sure that it is for actions, not for bias - there are other Wikipedians that run attack sites sites that criticize Wikipedians or Misplaced Pages (google "nonbovine" for instance). --B (talk) 13:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not about criticising Misplaced Pages. It's about solliciting meatpuppets. A block isn't any more punitive than any other block that is imposed based on past behaviour. You take past behaviour as a measure of the likelihood that future behaviour will be disruptive, and calculate block length accordingly. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been asked to post both relevant podcast links: http://web.mac.com/profg/iWeb/Site/Podcast/7D1AFD6C-C07F-11DC-B69C-000A959E8368.html http://web.mac.com/profg/iWeb/Site/Podcast/9A7C2A76-9F89-11DC-880E-000A959E8368.html --Filll (talk) 15:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Community ban discussion

• A block won't stop the damage. Misplaced Pages does not need editors who declare war against NPOV and canvass for meat puppets. This is a cooperative project, not an exercise in unlimited free speech. He must be excluded until he agrees to work cooperatively. Jehochman 14:02, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't edit the articles in question. I haven't even looked at the articles in question. I don't know the guy on the radio. However, the description in the first paragraph suggests that the article is POV and needs correction. So the assertion that the person is anti-NPOV is an attack. Whether it's an attack that can be justified is a different question. It's possible that the radio guy is looney. The fundamental question would be to put yourself in his shoes and ask "are there sections which are biased"? We should examine the fundamental question about whether this radio announcer has valid ideas that are being reverted. If so, then the talk of banning, blocking, and other steps are wrong. If the radio announcer has wacky ideas, that's a different story. Does the radio announcer's edits have reliable sources and are properly referenced? Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 17:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• A short sprotect of any article that appears to have been edited vexatiously following the podcast would resolve any problem with undue weight/vandalism. Re Profg, although they may have violated the terms of a parole the effect can be easily mitigated and blocking them from editing Misplaced Pages is not going to stop them from their off-Wiki activities (and may encourage them). A month block may suffice to persuade the editor we are serious about countering disruption of articles, but provided the carrot of a return to editing should they not canvas further for disruptive editing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• You are correct that the block may encourage more warring. That is why I have proposed a social construction: a ban. If Profg sees that we are unanimously against his methods, he may stop. If however, he sees support from any faction, he may view this as just another liberal-conservative battle, which is hopefully not the case. Jehochman 14:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• No, its certainly not a lib/con consideration; the template on Profg's page mentions a block rather than ban as sanction for parole violation, so I am being consistent with that. If the block is indefinite pending cessation of canvassing for POV pushing, with a month minimum tariff, then I could support. I would comment that the template doesn't directly address canvassing, but if the net result is to violate the terms of the parole by meatpuppetry then I think sanction on violation of parole is justified - it just depends whether we are considering keeping the key or not. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• We don't need to split hairs over what's a ban and what's a block. If a block gets imposed on the basis of admin consensus after a discussion like this, it will by definition be a ban. A temporal one; I too would consider indef overkill in this situation, and possibly counterproductive. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• We are not limited to the probation remedies. If he has done something else wrong, which appears to be the case, we are free to impose whatever remedies are necessary to protect the project and deter future disruption. That said, if he were to come here now or later and say, "Oops, I didn't realize this was wrong, I will issue a retraction," then the remedy could be lifted. Jehochman 15:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Could I propose an initial block of one month, to be reviewed at the end of tariff for evidence of continued off-Wiki canvassing for POV pushing - which would then attract the indef tariff until such time as they agree to comply with the communities wishes - as a compromise? LessHeard vanU (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• I have to agree and I would support a ban. This isn't just a case of seeking external input; Profg is explicitly seeking to recruit a large number of supporters of his POV and to use them to impose that POV in violation of NPOV. I'd call that unacceptably disruptive conduct, regardless of the effect it actually has in practice. -- ChrisO (talk) 14:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Given that a block or ban might encourage him, can we think of another option? Can we reason him out of this approach? And if that fails, then move to other thing?--Filll (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• How about we ban and block him now, and if he wants to come back, he has to stop actively trying to sabotage the project, and then we can talk. This is a project, not a public service. Editing is a privilege, not a right. You are certainly welcome to reason with him. I think a block by an individual administrator is problematic. We need a statement by the community that this behavior is highly objectionable, and that we will exclude him so long as it continues. Jehochman 15:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think that banning people for telling others to edit and use Misplaced Pages would be a terribly productive use of anyone's time. Regards, ]
• A block/ban will simply turn him into a martyr, further enhancing his status with his constituency. And it won't help us because he can return as a sockpuppet anyway. Regarding edits by his audience, it's not necessary to respond instantly. The "slow revert" is a wonderful thing. So what if the article is lousy for a few hours, or maybe a day or two, before we roll back -- lots of our articles are lousy for much longer periods than that. They want to provoke a newsworthy reaction and the best thing we can do is not react accordingly. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• Perhaps some administrator can be appointed to have a discussion with him explaining why what he did was out of line with Misplaced Pages community standards. Pending the results of that discussion, the administrator would report back what he/she thinks is the most appropriate way to deal with the issue. If it seems like there was good understanding and remorse (and perhaps even a correction made on the next podcast), take no action. If there is no remorse or no willingness to engage in discussion, take some action. Antelan 17:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• I oppose the ban but could support it if there is a proper explanation. What is the offense that causes the ban? Wikipedians don't like wikilawyering and neither do I. However, we need Wikiprecision.

What is the behavior causing ban?

1. Is it "mention of Misplaced Pages to others will cause you to be banned"?

2. Is it "mention of Misplaced Pages in the radio will cause you to be banned"?

3. Is it "disruptive editing because of diffs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 is causing your ban."?

4. Is it "asserting that there is a bias in Misplaced Pages causing you to be banned."?

5. Something else?

This could be a clear cut and easy decision. However, it's not adequately explained here. Maybe it's because you know what is going on. Others don't. I haven't read the articles. So if you want a community ban and not just a ban from you and your fellow editor, then you should be more specific. Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 18:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Off-wiki Canvassing for meat puppets to support a particular point of view is an illegitimate way to deal with a content dispute. A ban of this user would allow us to swiftly block any sock or meat puppet accounts that answer his call to disruptively edit the target articles. Jehochman 18:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Disclaimer: I have never even looked at the articles in question so I am questioning the process more than the edits. In Misplaced Pages, calling someone a meat or sockpuppet is too convenient an excuse to block someone. Ideas, not number of editors, is of more importance. Does the edits have reliable sources? If so, they are not POV or can be made NPOV. "Others contend that .... < ref >" is the way to do it. The biggest question I have that needs to be answered for me to support a ban would be to show the diffs to demonstrate that they seem like POV and wouldn't likely have any reliable sources. A review of the opposing sides edits that have reliable sources would also be necessary. Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrs.EasterBunny (talk • contribs) 18:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support a ban. In the time I've been familiar with him, something like a year now, he's been an inveterate POV pusher. This latest demarche of his demonstrates a clear contempt of this community and the project's goals. Don't see a talking to making much of an impression on someone who holds such strong views and is willing to make such public calls to recruit meat puppets. FeloniousMonk (talk) 17:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

• Support a ban. -- Fyslee / talk 18:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Profg hasn't actually edited much for some time. I'd suggest that we run a few checkusers over the next month in case of sockpuppetry vandalism, and watch his account, but if we ban him at this moment, realise the gesture will probably end up being symbolic rather than particularly useful. Adam Cuerden 18:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
• This is senseless. People are not AFD'ed. A one-line "support a ban" or "oppose a ban" type discussion is unhelpful. There were admins willing to unblock him before (I was the one that implemented it.) Is there any admin who would be willing to unblock him this time? I'm guessing the answer is no (as it probably should be), but if any admin would be willing to unblock him, that is what it is. Community bans are when no admin is willing to unblock someone - you can't treat people like articles and vote them in or out of existence based on whoever shows up. And for the record, I would (obviously) not be willing to unblock him this time. Canvassing on-wiki or off-wiki is obviously not an acceptable behavior. The issue before was that nobody could actually provide examples of Profg behaving in any way that would warrant an indefinite ban and no uninvolved user even supported the ban. Now, that's changed and I seriously doubt any admin would unblock him if he is blocked. I agree with Adam that it would be somewhat symbolic since he has not edited (at least not that we know of) in some time. But there's nothing inherently wrong with a symbolic action when it is a symbol that certain behaviors will not be tolerated. --B (talk) 20:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

1 Month Block

I have implemented a 1 month block and informed Profg that this can be shortened if the canvassing is stopped, or lengthened if we observe continuing problems. This seems to be the most appropriate remedy at this time. Jehochman 20:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

On sprotects of the pages Profg suggests be targeted (per above discussion)

Probably unnecessary at the moment. Evolution has been sprotected for months, if not years (It used to be one of the biggest vandalism targets. A few persistent vandals may mean that it still is...) However, for the unprotected articles he mentions, there's hardly been a flood of new, problematic users. The only edits I can find that have a half-decent chance of coming from this are two edits by new user Sonseeker007 (talk · contribs) to Intelligent design. They were reverted, and that was it. There was also a little anon vandalism of Creationism ( - but this is pretty standard "Hi, X!" vandalism and probably unrelated. Adam Cuerden 16:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Remember, his announcement is of what he plans to organize in the future.--Filll (talk) 18:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

In the very first paragraph, a podcast quote says "If you go to the discussion page and try to talk about it, you will be slammed". Yet we are trying to ban him. A more productive discussion may be "Let's not slam newbies. Let's get all editors to use reliable sources for every statement, particularly controversial statements." I find it disturbing that we are trying to ban editors. I would find it more comfortable if we are banning editors for failure to use reliable sources and citations. We have to be careful because most articles, even non-controversial ones, are full of uncited statements. If we are banning him because of clearly POV statements and lack of citations (diffs needed) and failure to cooperate in fixing this problem, then that's a different story. If I were to give Easter eggs only to perfect kids, no kids would get Easter eggs. Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 18:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but think of the reduction in cavities! On the other hand there is not always a benefit in numbers, sometimes WP can do without certain editors. --WebHamster 18:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

True, we don't want certain editors in WP! I don't want anti-Easter Bunny editors but would allow them if the anti-Easter Bunny edits had citation and were written in an encyclopedic tone. Mrs.EasterBunny (talk) 18:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I wasn't very clear: this is relating to the above discussion of Profg , not the users cited in the examples. Basically, if he was really that major of a force against Misplaced Pages, we'd probably have seen a bit more trouble by now on the articles he mentioned by name. I've changed the title of this section appropriately. Adam Cuerden 18:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I dont see how blocking him would prevent his solicitation of meat puppets via his blog. DGG (talk) 18:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I too don't see how banning him would prevent meatpuppetry, all he would do is use the incident to say that it proves his point. However, from my experience in other controversial topics, new editors who come in and try to change an article to support their POV almost never become good editors. They either get blocked for disruption, POV pushing, edit warring, incivility/attacks, sockpuppetry, etc. or they give up after a few weeks of not being able to get their way. Mr.Z-man 21:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Really, User:Profg was disruptive and unconstructive in the best of times, and was most recently unblocked on fairly strict terms of parole. Now he's soliciting a large group of editors of a particular POV to swarm and "overwhelm" a contentious article? Block the account indefinitely. He's already got his red meat on how he's been censored by the leftist hordes; an indefinite block won't materially change that. If he changes his approach convincingly, or if some admin wants to unblock him, then we can reopen a discussion. If the articles become problems, we'll semi-protect them as needed. MastCell 21:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Danny Williams (politician)

There appears to be persistant vandalism with this article. Please do something about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Just2day (talk • contribs) 13:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The article you mentioned is in red link. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Please identify the edits which are vandalism. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 13:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Self-made toy pictures

Some of the articles on old toys/cartoon/comic book characters lacked pictures, and I had a big collection old toys and TV shows, so I had started to take pictures and post them under their respective articles. I used screen captures, box art and the like. At first I had trouble using proper tags, but eventually that was sorted out. There was a complaint that these images were non-free, and it was suggested to me that pictures I took myself of the toys of characters were a free alternative. I started to take pictures of the toys for the characters and post them as GDFL-self. I recently recieved another notice that the pictures of the toys themselves are not GFDL-self as the toy is considered a work of art, and owned by the creator. There are still articles out there with no or few pictures. If the picture of the toys are also non-free (and no free alternative does exist!) then should I just go back to screen captures and comic art and such, IF I work out a proper non-free image fair use rational? There seems to be no free alternative for some of these articles, and surely at least one non-free image per character IS allowed if you have the proper rational attached to it. I know I can't flood an article with non-free pictures, but some articles lack pictures all together, is that an acceptable reason to add a properly tagged non-free image?

Also, what about characters who changed siginifantly? Would I be allowed to post a picture of each of theirt changes over the years? Thanks for letting me know. Mathewignash (talk) 13:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If an alternative does not exist and these are needed to retain the quality of the article, you can still use them under our fair use rules. Jtrainor (talk) 13:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

For instance there is an article on three different fictional characters who share a name - Dirge (Transformers). Can I safely add a non-free picture of each of the three characters (who look vastly different) to the article if I use a proper fair use rational? Mathewignash (talk) 13:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It might be more useful to photograph all three at the same time. Adam Cuerden 13:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The way the article is set up each character has his own section. I could merge pictures of their two modes into one picture, since they are Transformers they all have 2 modes. Like robot and jet. I could make those one picture. Mathewignash (talk) 14:00, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Though one needs to be aware that while no one (currently) is adding up non-free use on a page, a single shot of 3 separate toys would be considered as 3 uses of non-free fair use (as the photo is a derivative work). But the advice you have currently is otherwise correct, you can probably get more info at WP:NFC and WP:ICHD. --MASEM 13:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Since a toy is a three-dimensional work of art, wouldn't User:Mathewignash be free to release these two-dimensional photographs of these three-dimensional works into the public domain, under GFDL, and/or CC? Misplaced Pages:Copyright FAQ states, "For pictures of statues (which is, effectively, a translation of a three dimensional work into a two-dimensional copy) the picture taker has creative input into which angle to take the photographs from. Therefore, a new copyright is created when the picture is taken." Jecowa (talk) 16:07, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Apparently not. See the discussion and linked discussions at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Any trademark experts?. ➔ REDVEЯS is standing in the dark 16:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

In the first discussion you mentioned concerning Image:TARDIS-trans.png, User:WjBscribe said that commons is concerned with copyright, not trademarks. The photograph of a toy from that discussion is now hosted on commons. Jecowa (talk) 17:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If you read through the discussion there, it specifically applies to the TARDIS (aka an old British policy box) because they cannot "copyright" that look - that look was in the public domain before the BBC created Doctor Who. It is a highly unique case. --MASEM 17:55, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This seems crazy to me. I know copyright law is byzantine at times all the time, but what if a picture were made, such that a toy were incidental in the shot taken. And then that photo (the one with the incidental toy in it) were released under a CC or GFDL. And then somebody else were to crop the freely licensed picture down the line (to include just the toy). . .does that mean that the cropped, derivative pic would violate copyright, but the original wouldn't? Or can one never release a photo if it contains discernible 3D --> 2D pixels in it somewhere? R. Baley (talk) 18:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, do I just added one non-free box art image to the Dirge (Transformers) page. Is there ANY problem with the way I did it? Please let me know. I want to try to get a general nod that I added a proper picture the right way to an article before doing another. Thanks Mathewignash (talk) 19:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I just added a picture to the Bonecrusher article (which covers 7 different characters named Bonecrusher). Since the 6th had no picture, I used one sent out by Hasbto to promote it's sale. Is this okay? http://en.wikipedia.org/Bonecrusher_%28Transformers%29#Transformers:_Universe_.28Deluxe.29 I think i tagged everything properly.Mathewignash (talk) 10:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Woggy

Woggy (talk · contribs) (currently blocked indefinitely for having an acid tongue and as a V-OA) has just posted a plea to be unblocked on his talk page. I'm not comfortable unblocking someone blocked for personal attacks; does this guy deserve a second chance? -Jéské 17:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

COULD YOU please list which edits othat were causing him to be blocked?~~?~??~?~? 17

57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you please be more civil, Smith? And please examine his block log (the link is at the top of his contribs page). He's been blocked for three months, and not by me. -Jéské 18:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Should not that username be indefinitely blocked anyway, due to its possible meanings? Whitstable (talk) 17:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I should guess that the username patroller was not familiar with UK racist terms - although it is just as possible neither is the account holder. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

i think that he should be permanetnly bblocked from editing becuase it i clear from his block log hat he has not ientention of proiidnd useful edits and seems to have createdhisacount solely for vandalcism. not only that i agree with whitstable that his usename is obviously a racialist slur. Smith Jones (talk) 18:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Not happening; the user has evaded the block as Wuggy (talk · contribs) (see below). Very bad move if you want an unblock. -Jéské 19:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing personal attacks from User:MichaelQSchmidt

I suspect this is a sock puppet account of User:L.L.King and he -like L.L.King and all the socks before him- has gone on page long tirades against me and my assault on the integrity of Misplaced Pages. He left a wall of text over at User talk:Alison about my abuse of protocols and followed that up at User talk:BQZip01 with a tear calling me a liar and a fool. He's left lengthy essays on both WP:IFD and his talk page (since deleted) again calling me abusive and downright evil. I don't think Alison has checked her talk page (she was the blocking admin for L.L.King), so I thought I would bring this request here. Thanks. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm only just getting started here for the day. Initial glance shows that it's a bit more complex than simple sock vandalism, and that there may be BLP issues involved, too. Feel free to weigh in on my talk page, anyone ... - Alison 18:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

KnatLouie (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Would someone mind telling this user not to maintain list of users s/he doesn't like? The user claims it's not insulting, but it's clearly meant to be. Mønobi 18:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

i just warned him for you. Smith Jones (talk) 18:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Lol, I told him to remove it and he renamed from "Worst admin ever" to what it is now, then told me he'd added me. I don't mind really with the way it is now, but it was bad before.--Phoenix-wiki 18:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Wuggy (talk · contribs) obvious sock of Woggy (talk · contribs) - in relation to above

Resolved – Fuzzy Wuggy had a widdoo accident. -Jéské 19:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is related to the above post about Woggy (talk · contribs) unblock plea. Just after that was posted, Wuggy (talk · contribs) was created. Their first edit? Admitting to NawlinWiki that they were, in fact, Woggy. The second edit was making more personal attacks on Talk:List of SpongeBob SquarePants episodes, which was a trademark of Woggy. I brought this here because I thought it was way too obvious to file an SSP report. NF24 19:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Blocked as a block-evading sock; although I will note that he was not using a personal attack on the Talk:LoSBSPE page. -Jéské 19:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, really? I took "Ever heard of proper grammar?" as an attack (though it wasn't to me) and was attempting to remove it when I edit-conflicted with you (while you were removing Wuggy's comments entirely). Good job. NF24 19:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

While it is incivil, it's not a personal attack. -Jéské 19:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this "Resolved" comment supposed to be cute? It's decidedly not. Frongle (talk) 20:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

User:HPJoker

I noticed that he was given rollback, but just a few months ago I found thisMisplaced Pages:Suspected_sock_puppets/HPJoker, which tells me he doesn't deserve the tool. Also all his rollbacks so far is reverting new users edits in the Misplaced Pages:Sandbox of all pages. Taking here for consensus. Secret 19:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I would endorse the removal of his rollback tools.--Phoenix-wiki 20:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Why? If he abuses it, remove it. No need for drama.--Doc 20:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well he is only reverting new users on the sandbox on a costant basis, which is WP:BITE Secret 20:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly why rollback sucks, here we are wasting time - go tell him not to do that. Ask him nicely, don't bring this useless drama here.--Doc 20:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I had already asked the user to stop doing that and he replied "I know. I'm just bored.", but obviously chose to keep doing it. - Rjd0060 (talk) 21:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

If he's continued to abuse the tool, then simply remove it. No fuss no paperwork.--Doc 22:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Funky stuff on WP:RSN

Hey all. It appears that after this change was made, a whole bunch of active discussions on WP:RSN immmediately disappeared, including new threads. I'm assuming that this was not suppose to happen. I'm also assuming I'm not the only one who noticed, but FYI just in case. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 20:22, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

A follow-up: Haemo already took care of it. It was some kind of accidental deletion. -BC aka Callmebc (talk) 20:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Red alert, Misplaced Pages under a very serious threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For the main dicussion please see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&oldid=183926253#RED_ALERT
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueanode (talk • contribs) 20:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

A message from vandal PWee Hurman as left on User:Goodshoped35110s's talk page:

Hello Everybody, a little message to Goodshoped35110 and who else might read it. . . First off, I would like to say I love your comment(s) about the "automated rifle" when talking about taking me off wikipedia(Herman). And I would like to say that, well, your right, and that you will need that kind of fire power, especially when I finally assemble the project that I am currently working on. I currently have assembled, through an online blog to have "Herman" launch non-stop wiki attacks from multiple places in the United States. I also currently have a member who is undercover, trying to obtain the administrator position to unleash unheard of havoc. The damage that would be dealt would make even the megaliths of war look subordinate in comparison.

The next thing worth mentioning is that you don't have all of our sock puppets listed, but rather are missing many, including the ones in Spanish, Germane, Russian, and like this one, pig Latin. You will never defeat Herman, in fact, the guerrilla war thats being arranged will be the Virgina Poly Tech Massacre all over again. This will be ready and executable approximately in mid February. I need the finishing touches. Get ready for this.

Can You Handle it?

--Gp75motorsports 15:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Goodshoped35110s"

This has already been posted on User talk:Jimbo Wales and I have posted it here so the whole community can see it, Jimbo Wales has informed Mike Godwin of this already, however I think the community should be warned and prepared for this. Blueanode (talk) 20:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The edit in question was five weeks ago. Kusma (talk) 20:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Block, revert, move on. Metros (talk) 20:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact is, they plan to do this in the future, and the threat seems very possible. Blueanode (talk) 20:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

And there's nada we can do about it. Block, revert, move on. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

By making a big deal of it we're giving them the attention they want. Have a look at WP:DENY; it's beautiful stuff, and it works. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 20:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a big deal, Jimbo Wales has notified Mike Godwin his legal advisor for god sake, see the dicussion on his page, this could cause untold damage... Blueanode (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

So what would you suggest we do? Sharpen our keyboards? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The PeeWee guy is full of it. He claimed to have "hundreds of IP addresses" - he didn't. I've checkusered enough of his cases to know - he's just a bluffer - Alison 20:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It certainly convinced Jwales. Blueanode (talk) 20:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Yawn.--Doc 20:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You must know that this is exactly what the editor wanted? Move along... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I haven't exactly had enough experience to understand who this editor is and what he wants... Blueanode (talk) 20:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec) This is ridiculous. I've marked it as resolved; it's probably some 8-year-old kid or something who has nothing better to do than to get people all worked up about it. He's most likely bluffing about having some big assault ready, and besides, he has no idea who most of us are, as he has no CheckUser. Revert, block, ignore. End of story. Keilana 20:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ongoing harrassment, vote rigging and sockpuppetery by User:Coloane

I'm being harassed by User:Coloane for making an unfavorable review at Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_candidates/Macau. The first step of his retaliation was to nominate one of the FA articles I've worked on at Misplaced Pages:Featured_article_review/Indonesia/archive1. That approach failed with the review being quickly closed with the issues raised being dismissed outright, but he then threatened to renominate the same article again at WP:Featured article review on February 1st, 2008 (). The editor clearly states their motive for renominating Indonesia is revenge here: (). Another editor also unfavorably reviewed the Macau article, and the response from User:Coloane was the same: a threat to vote against one of the articles written by the reviewer at WP:FAC (). There may also be a violation of Misplaced Pages:Canvassing by this editor - they have asked a number of other like-minded editors to vote at the Macau FA review : , , , , . Blackmailing other editors and gaming the system to achieve FA status for articles should be a serious cause for concern.

There is an ongoing pattern of disruptive behavior with this editor. User:Coloane was recently blocked for violating the 3RR on Russia (). Another editor expressed frustration that the editor was also being disruptive on the Singaporean articles: . If you examine the edits made by User:Coloane, User:Fbmmsu and User:Josuechan there is a superficial case that they may all be sockpuppets controlled by the same individual. There is an overlap in the articles they edit and the style of their edit comments - all editors have a habit of writing "+" a lot in their edit comments, specifically "+ comment" or "+ com" for adding comments at talk pages, "+ ref" or "+ reference" for adding references, etc. Indeed, User:Coloane has previously been blocked for block-evasion (), and User:Coloane and User:Fbmmsu have played tag team in reverting at Programme for International Student Assessment to force a 3RR violation block of another editor. A checkuser on these accounts would be helpful in understanding exactly what is going on.

Can someone help solve the ongoing disruption this editor is causing? (Caniago (talk) 23:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC))

Thanks for your message you wrote me in my talk page. Excuse me, for what you claimed about sockpuppet(s) is groundless. Admin can check it. There is nothing wrong to notify my friends, collegues, or other ediors to vote and give me comment over the FAC page as long as I didn't force them to vote either support or oppose. The original spirit for blocking is to quench edit war and I don't think there is edit war over the page of PISA and it passed long time ago inlcuding Russia. For the article Singapore I already compromised with other editors like Huaiwei. For what you claimed about my first block evasion last year because I had used anyo. with Mobile IP, that is why the admin blocked me after I created my account. Caniago, there is nothing wrong for me to put the article Indonesia over the page of FAR. Actually that article is not in FA standard. Lead has no citation, I am not completely wrong. Thanks! Coloane (talk) 23:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

We are not in the business, if you do this for me I will do that for you! There are people I do not like, but I do not go to articles conserning them imparting my opinion. We must follow WP:NPOV and supress the evil WP:COI as much as posible to preserve WP:Notable, respect WP:WEIGHT and WP:AGF. Igor Berger (talk) 04:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

There is indeed something wrong to notify friends, collegues, or other ediors to vote, for that can amoung to WP:MEAT if their sole purpose to be here is just that...engaging in revert-wars. And I do not consider him as having reached any "compromise" with me, after his failed attempt to abuse the WP:3RR policy . which was the last time he chose to be disruptive in Singapore-related articles.--Huaiwei (talk) 05:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you are not completely wrong. There is no black and white area here. It depends on the sitution. I invited them to give me comment. They can give me pos or neg comment; or they can even vote oppose. It seems to me I reported your case of abuse 3RR policy to noticeboard first, am I right? and at the same time, you got a warning message as well, am I right? well, I am not going to argue with you this matter because I forgot it and I am quite lazy (unlike you) to find out from my edit history. It seems there is some difference and you change something after the edit warring. Well, but I just don't care!! Coloane (talk) 05:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Coloane also harassed me after I made an unfavourable review on the Macau FAC and after I exposed his lying on another issue. User:Coloane declared - "OK! go ahead! I just don't care! I already illustrated my point. I am not going to revert it. RIght now I will try to make sure your article Russia fail and die from FAC. That is the most important thing." and "whenever you nominate Russia or Russian article, I will surely vote OPPOSE or take them to FAR. This is the heavy price you have to pay". He encouraged other users to vote oppose to the Russia FAC that I nominated as revenge (please vote "Oppose" to make sure his article Russia fail and leave the page of FAC immediately. His article is almost failed!!!! just give him a last bullet. I will come back and check it tomorrow!!) and here (I would like to suggest that you had better vote OPPOSE as this article also ignored many guidelines. T) . He has made similar disruptive WP:POINTy edits on other pages, see User_talk:Coloane#Stop_the_disruption. User blanks his talk page to hide his history of blocks, disruptive editing, accusations of racism, etc . Furthermore, see the comments written by other users about Coloane when he was reported for 3RR recently.--Miyokan (talk) 03:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

wow, last time you copied and pasted this message on 3RR noticeboard the day before yesterday. You copied and pasted on the FAC page and now you pasted it over here. It is much faster that you typed and pasted compare to the past but not much improvement has been made. Coloane (talk) 05:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I once again question this user's intentions on Misplaced Pages. His actions are centered on disrupting highly valued contributors, for the sake of pushing his national interests. I cannot see how he may bring anything constructive to the project. (p.s., this is charming, no?) Bogdan 06:26, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I am currently on vacation, so I am limited in what I can write, but Coloane does have a limited fluency in English which restricts some of his editor interaction (and also wounds his ego when it is pointed out as a mitigation for some of his behaviour). If Wikipedians study the deleted portions of Coloane's talk page (visible in the History) it will become plain that Coloane's agenda is not always coterminous with that of our encyclopedia.

Nevertheless he does have useful contributions to make and I would suggest that outright blocks of whatever duration would be counterproductive and only give him a perverse incentive for puppetry. Better would be a voluntary undertaking from him to only edit Macau articles for 2 months while he learns a less vindictive style and that he seeks mentorship. Alice 06:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Alice, I am not interested in you. I wrote you already on your talk page. If you are seeking a boyfriend or husband, please refer to related classified online. You just disturbed me a lot. If you think your English is wonderful (though this is not your native language), congratulations! please go to ask some one if they can offer you a place as an ESL teacher. Good Luck!!! Coloane (talk) 13:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Long-term WP:AGF and WP:NPA abuse

I came across Cculber007 (talk · contribs) after another user reported him for incivility. I responded with two instances of AGF/NPA-vios, and was greeted today by a rather harsh reply.

This has been brought up earlier but it is escalating amongst other users. Cculber007 (talk · contribs) has been warned many times and has been blocked previously for incivility and legal threats. Here is a list of DIFFs, also catalogued on my talk page:

• : Belief that any warnings appropriated by users is nonsensical and would appreciate warnings/notices from administrators only, going against WP:VANDAL.
• Wholly inappropriate edit summary, per WP:AGF.
• Creative reuse of a header.
• Ditto.
• (the second message)
• E-mail from Cculber007 (66.230.200.216 (talk · contribs)) sent at Jan 12, 2008 6:20 PM: "That is not vandalism, that is my complaint. I think I contact Misplaced Pages about your bad faith. I am not accepting that you think I vandalised your pages but you vandalised my pages. I get news for you, You are not right person for Misplaced Pages. Remove vandalism words and changing to correct. if not, I will call you as vandalism on my pages."
• E-mail from Culber007 (66.230.200.216 (talk · contribs)) sent at Jan 12, 2008 6:26 PM: ""You start to make a fire, you do not want to finish this fire but you want to bring more fires." It means you do not want to solve the problem, you want to start flame war against me instead of others. I think you has something against me as a deaf person. This is last time, changing your comments in your pages from vandalism to complaints. If they are spams and vandalism then Misplaced Pages is deaf discrimination. Do a right things and solve them will give you a chance of Mediation Committee."

He was given "one more chance" for legal threats.

Prior reports at WQA (above) have generated the following AGF-vios: . I thought of just keeping this on the respective talk pages and working out a better solution, but after receiving the rather disturbing e-mails in successive fashion and after seeing the prior blocks, I thought this venue would be more appropriate. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 23:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Rangeblock assistance

Over about a month's time, there have been a number of disruptive POV edits made to Serb-related articles. All have been made from IP addresses, with the vast majority from either the 195.29.96.x - 195.29.105.x range and 217.68.80.50 (talk · contribs) (the latter account has been blocked). The edits were spread over about thirty pages, with protections up to a week in length having little effect. User:Cheeser1, who initially noticed the edits and has been monitoring it since then, has documented most of the pertinent information at User:Cheeser1/Vandalism, which I will not duplicate here.

As protection has been ineffective and this user shows no sign of stopping, I think it's time to look at a rangeblock. I'd like to solicit others' opinions before doing so, however. Also, would it be wise to request a checkuser to determine any collateral damage such a block would incur? Tijuana Brass (talk) 23:47, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll just add that the IPvandal has made it clear that the 192.29.96-105 range and 217.68.80.50 is definitely the same user, and has explicitly made it clear that s/he has no intention of contributing constructively to these articles or any other part of Misplaced Pages. The user seems to think vandalism is humorous (most easily gleaned from these two page histories). No other contributions seem to have been made from this IP range as far as I can tell (I haven't checked all 2560 of them though). Anything I can do to help, since I've been doing the bulk of the work and have documented this case, just ask. --Cheeser1 (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

User:BernardL

Clear violations of WP:NPA here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Allegations_of_state_terrorism_committed_by_the_United_States#Monthly_Review and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Allegations_of_state_terrorism_committed_by_the_United_States#The_Atlantic_Monthly

Jtrainor (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

These are not personal attacks. They're not even close to them. He's stating policy. You also have not sought to bring up the issue with the user in question, which you should do before bringing something to the noticeboard (although that's something of a moot point here, since nothing occurred). Tijuana Brass (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It is worth noting that BernardL has modified his remarks substantially (diff) presumably between the time that Jtrainor posted this report and when Tijuana Brass read the comments. Comments like "...your half-baked pseudo-legal finaggling", "Why do you bother us with these obvious irrelevancies?", and "Can your imbecility go much deeper than it already is?" were made after Jtrainor posted a reminder link () to WP:NPA on the talk page. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 02:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Let's give BernardL the benefit of the doubt and guess that he made those changes after realizing that he made a mistake. If it happens again, take it up with him first, then escalate it to the etiquette noticeboard if it continues. Tijuana Brass (talk) 02:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I kinda know Bernard from some interactions on the article in question (where I generally agree with him in terms of the debates there) and think the "your imbecility" comment in particular is highly, highly unacceptable. It's good that the comment was apparently refactored by Bernard (I did not check the history but assume this was the case), however a stern admin warning seems warranted. Having said that, the article in question is (and has been for a long time) a heated one in terms of talk page interactions so the comments are not at all beyond the pale in terms of the tone over there (unfortunately). Bernard's comments at the article, as far as I've seen and remember, have generally been well thought out and civil so I would view the "imbecility" comment as cause for a strong slap on the wrist and little more at this point.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 12:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration evidence tampering

86.20.179.62 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) has altered my evidence statement at an arbitration case with a misleading edit summary. The IP changed my words to make it appear that I was accusing Odd nature of being a sockpuppet of FeloniousMonk, yet called the edit a grammar fix. I reverted immediately and consider that an especially pernicious attack. Please block, and if a checkuser is available that would be good too. Maybe FeloniousMonk would have some ideas about who did this. Durova 00:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I just gave the IP a warning. TableManners 00:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The only edits by this ip were those as notified above. I suggest if this, or another in the same range, return and make similar amendments then we can consider a block. Again, only if these incidents of vandalism are repeated should checkuser be requested. Further, wouldn't checkuser need to have a name for a suspected account - and valid reasons for believing they are socking - to be accepted? You may wish to weigh the consequences of making such a request. LessHeard vanU (talk) 00:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

TableManners, your "warning," " Please stop introducing jokes into articles" is way off the mark; the person impersonated a trusted member of the community on an arbcom evidence page to attack another, not "introducing jokes into articles." That in itself is a blockable offense. FeloniousMonk (talk) 05:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've left a message at FeloniousMonk's user talk. The odds of this being a new user are really low. I just don't know who the sockmaster would be, but I think we should have a very low tolerance for this particular kind of dirty trick. Suppose someone else had edited that page before I checked my watchlist? This is arbitration evidence; I think a short leash should apply. Durova 00:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Durova: have you notified the arb clerk on that case? I'd suggest posting this also on the case page it occurred on. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• I've blocked for one month. "First offense" etc clearly does not apply to an editor impersonating one editor in order to attack, harass, or accuse another on an ArbCom evidence page. Anyone who knows enough to do that knows precisely what they are doing. KillerChihuahua 12:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Request input on topic ban

Hello. I'd like to strongly suggest a topic ban for User:Gp75motorsports, restricting him to article space with talk edits only relating to those articles, and a specific restriction on discussing one Pee Wee Herman vandal. He spends the majority of his time in userspace or talk space, rarely actually writing articles, and generally making mountains out of molehills. This type of behavior stretches back to his beginnings on the project. However, despite him having months of experience, this behavior has not waned, rather, it has increased greatly. I do feel that if he were restricted to articlespace, they could channel this energy into improving the encyclopedia.

According to Interiot's counter, Gp75motorsports has made only 109 edits to the mainspace since he joined the project in July. Most of these edits are minor, such as removing links and tagging. Also according to Interiot, he has made 665 edits to usertalk space, which accounts for more than 53% of his edits, in contrast to his mainspace edits, accounting for less than 9% of his edits. Finally, about 10% of his edits are to his userspace. GP75motorsports also frequently threatens blocks in a very argumentative, BITEy, and bossy manner, such as here: , also speaking in very combative tones. He has also taunted banned users, running very contrary to WP:FEED. He also propagates instruction creep, as shown by these myriad examples (some admin-only): His WikiProject for the purpose of giving him and his friends power, their meeting room, and their requests page; more are visible here. He has created titles for his friends, proposed it as a WikiProject duplicate of the CVU, tries to deceive people about the nature of his project, canvasses for support in debates, canvasses against deletion of his pet project, gets very standoffish when it is nominated for deletion, canvasses for support in his deletion debate, creates "secret pages", and just generally creates busywork for people. The entire debate may hold interest. If you look at his contribs from the October 15-22 period, you will see a lot of wikilawyering and instruction creep, there are many more diffs, and this behavior has not ceased. He's also been blocked () and received warnings on his behavior (see , and). GP75 also harassed retired user RickK, posting on his talk page his purported new identity, using very inflammatory edit summaries, spreading it around, mounting an apparent investigation, and finally requests checkuser on him, but doesn't drop the issue. He has created other Wikiprojects mired in bureaucracy; 6 of them have been through MfD: AccInsure, ChampionMart, PeeWee Hurman, The Misplaced Pages User's Alliance, Misplaced Pages User's Alliance 2, and The Great Wikigame. GP is, along with User:Blow of Light, obsessed with the "Pee Wee Herman" vandal, culminating in this thread on Jimbo's talk page regarding a puerile threat from said vandal. Recently, they created a list of possible names he could take, resulting in this MfD. He posted on Blow's talk page regarding this vandal two days ago, stating that the vandal's IP "should be indeffed". He also takes a very militant approach, adding to Pee Wee's encouragement. He worked with Blow on User:Pee wee maury povich as a place to identify Pee Wee sockpuppets, see Special:Prefixindex/User:Pee wee maury povich. Also regarding Pee Wee actions, he asks repeatedly about his activities. Finally, he doesn't understand the purpose of CheckUser despite multiple reminders, see Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Gp75motorsports, Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/NikhtaSt, Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/RickK. Finally, he promised once before to stop editing userspace, but obviously has not. His last 500 contribs may be of note. I hope that the community will consider this request. Regards, Keilana 00:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC) I would also support a block. Keilana 00:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm concerned about him too, and I've already been working back on mainspace. So, yeah, I don't really want or need to deal with PeeWee anymore, and I don't say why. —BoL 00:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And the alternate account I worked on was all by myself, and it's a doppleganger. If you want to, delete it. In fact, I've already tagged it. —BoL 00:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I support this topic restriction for GP, and think that it should serve as a very strong and clear warning to BoL (Blow of Light) that he is headed in the same direction at a slower pace. Some have advocated (see WP:EM) a less restrictive treatment of editors who focus a great deal of attention on their userspace at the expense of other contributions, but at this point their userspace activity has begun to contribute to disruption of the wider community. 00:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I present my caveats. —BoL 00:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Um, your warnings? You present your warnings? Metros (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Not my warnings, my contribs. You notice I've been working on Mainspace lately. —BoL 00:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Without turning this thread into a grammar debate, but take a look at caveat. "Let him beware" is essentially what it means. Metros (talk) 00:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Fully support any action against this user in the form of topic ban or probation. Metros (talk) 00:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

its sgenerally a clear sine of a single-issue editor (or a vandal) that they spend more of this time warring on the user page rather than actually working on the encycloepdia. i eprsonally think that a restriction is in order, aidn if he tries to violate that by abusing the articles throughe edit warring or rude edit summaries then he should be banned permanently. Smith Jones (talk) 00:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Fully support this topic ban. I'd also completely support a similar ban for User:Blow of Light, mentioned to a lesser extent in Keilana's explanation above, but no less worrying in my eyes. Both of these two have long histories of rather less than exemplary behavior. GlassCobra 00:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

WHAT? Dude, I'm willing to stop. I aint' working on that anymore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blow of Light (talk • contribs) 00:43, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop then. Dihydrogen Monoxide 00:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I strongly support such a topic block on gp75 - suggest we hold him to what he requested (ie. protect stuff, just like he asked). If it's possible to salt userspace (using a prefixindex, perhaps, not sure....), then salting his userpsace may be a good idea, for a while at least. BoL has been contributing a bit lately, but is reminded that he's being watched. Dihydrogen Monoxide 00:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

if you really want to stop, User:Blow of Light, you shoudl just stop and not protest your punishment. Smith Jones (talk) 00:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

(after a bunch of ec's) This says otherwise (admin-only unfortunately). east.718 at 00:49, January 13, 2008

I don't see why we shouldn't ban him (GP) all together. It doesn't seem that he understands what Misplaced Pages is for, and has generally become a hindrance to the project in several situations. Are his article edits that helpful that we think he should be allowed to only edit them? Blow of Light, I don't know what to say, as I haven't really noticed anything good or bad about his presence. All I do know is that he seems to be fixated on this Peewee Herman nonsense a bit, too.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to banning GP75, although some others may cherish his {{trivia}} tagging more than we do. Dihydrogen Monoxide 00:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And is that really what we want him to solely do from now on? It seems like a task that can be done by anyone, not someone who continues to fill his user space with unnecessary content.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 00:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

As per GlassCobra, I think some sort of final warning is needed for both Blow of Light and Gp75motorsports. Mønobi 00:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd second the suggestion of a warning, at least in the case of Blow of Light. Blocks are intended to be preventative, either in preventing current and active disruption, or in preventing long-term cumulative disruption. If the user has stopped the behavior (as he/she claims to have done by editing more in the mainspace), and if the user states his/her intent to refrain from the disruptive behavior, then I think that's all we would need. If, after such a warning, the disruption begins again, then a block is absolutely warranted. I haven't looked into the case of GP, and reserve comment pending his response to this thread. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 00:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Er, hi, I just want to check. Is this going to be in ARBCOM or something? —BoL 01:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Not at the moment. Hopefully that can be avoided with a voluntary community supported topic ban. Nick (talk) 01:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I support a topic restriction for Gp and I strongly urge him not to run to Jimbo or Arbcom every time he finds a threat or a vandal, not only does this tend to propagate additional unwanted drama as those unfamiliar with the situation begin to panic and make unwise knee jerk reactions, but also, as no active and experienced editors or administrators are aware of the situation, we're unable to deal with it. Nick (talk) 01:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Blow of Light

I figured I'd create a sub-section to separate out discussion for Blow of Light (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) since he seems to be getting a decent amount of discussion here too. What are thoughts on actions regarding him? He claims above he's cleaning up, but it's obvious he's still not doing well. Case in point is this response on his talk page. He spent an entire conversation accusing an IP user of having a conflict of interest, telling the user to go read the policy....only to be wrong and admit he, himself, had no clue what the policy meant. What are thoughts we might have on Blow of Light? Metros (talk) 00:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I admit, I'm not perfect, but so is no one. I'm trying to improve, but I am having a very hard time. —BoL 01:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, it's not hard to drop certain topics. Mønobi 01:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

That's why I do CSD work and improving San Francisco-related articles. —BoL 01:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd support a similar restriction to Gp above. Nick (talk) 01:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)Just to clarify, I am supporting a similar restriction to the one being proposed for Gp in the section above for Blow of Light. I don't know nor care about PWeeHurman, especially as until now, it was not even part of this conversation Nick (talk) 01:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah isn't it weird how it works like that Nick? You don't bring up PWeeHurman, yet, Blow of Light brings it up. Metros (talk) 01:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

As strange as it sounds, I actually support the topic ban on PWeeHurman. The reason why I'm freaking out about this is for a reason I can't explain unless you want me to. —BoL 01:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

HOLY CRAP. Does it not get through to you to leave the PWeeHurman shit alone? Seriously. I'm sorry if I'm being incivil here, but my god cannot it not get through to you hard enough? Metros (talk) 01:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're being uncivil, and yes, I want to stop, but guess what? It's getting through me all right. Just... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blow of Light (talk • contribs) 02:40 UTC (UTC)

Look, BoL, I don't want to say this again. All of us do not want to say this again. Stop, and I mean STOP, all mention of PeeWee from this moment forward. —Kurykh 01:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

That's why there's this. I don't know how words turn into black or red bars. —BoL 01:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

yes STOP IT. JUST STOP IT. !!! Smith Jones (talk) 01:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

if you sant something else to do, please visit and improve the article Battle of Mediolanum Smith Jones (talk) 02:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Smith Jones (talk) 02:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And as for Gp, Just stop, Gp. You know what, I don't ever want to ever mention anything about socks. From now on, I'm just going to try mainspace, like improve San Francisco-related areas. In fact, the reason why I even came back was I wanted a clean start, and apparently, I don't think I'm getting it. —BoL 02:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you worry about yourself first? Stop worrying about specks in other people's eyes with that plank in yours. —Kurykh 02:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't want pompous proclamations of intended reform. You gave too much of that already. Actual change is what we want, what we demand. —Kurykh 02:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You got a clean start. Taking and utilizing it appropriately is another story all together. Metros (talk) 02:04, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

to fulyl take advantage of your clean start, please visit and improve Battle of Mediolanum or Bronwen Mantel as soon as possible. Smith Jones (talk) 02:07, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, maybe it's because I got stressed out. Every time I get stressed out, I start getting really cranky and this is what usually happens and that's what got me blocked last time. I am sick and tired of this scrutiny over me, that's why I didn't want to come back, but I realized once I left, vandalism went up. Now I'm back, and it's still the same ol' same ol'. Can't you guys just leave me alone? And I don't mean a block. —BoL 02:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh man! You mean alllllllll that vandalism we saw after you left was solely because you weren't here to stop the vandals?! Damn. Get this man a barnstar. Seriously, though...we wouldn't be scrutinizing you if you were making good, wise choices here would we? If you were editing appropriately and not obsessing over particular users and code shops, would we be calling your edits into question? Definitely not. So make the necessary changes and you won't have issues. Don't ask us to stop watching your edits. PROVE to use we can stop. Metros (talk) 02:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

And as for Battle of Mediolanum, I've already started. —BoL 02:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Metros grow up and stop bulying other usrs its a violation of WP: No Personal Attacks and probably WP:Civil. if you have problems with BLowofLgihts' edits you should phrase them in apolite and respectful maner and offer encouragements for him to imrpove to meet your standards. doing otherwise makes it seem like your trying to bully him which is unfair and unhelpful. if you go to the article Battle of Mediolanum (which all of you should) you will see that BLow of Light has started to make construcitve non-PeeWee related edits and that's a trend that we hould be encouraging isntead of criticizing. Smith Jones (talk) 02:22, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

You know what, I agree with him. I have created pages that are contributing to the project, both new and old accounts, like Carmen Chu, the Adopt-An-Alleyway Youth Empowerment Project, and Cody's Books. —BoL 02:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's stop kicking BoL while he's down. —Kurykh 02:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I'm down, but not out. There's something going on, Wen Weihua got jumped, and now Jimbo Wales, and others, including me, have blanked their userpages and replaced it with something. —BoL 02:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Look, just edit articles, okay? We don't need up-to-the-minute reports of your reform agenda. —Kurykh 02:45, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The? OK, then I guess it's resolved, huh? —BoL 02:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I would say that provided you don't start going on more sockpuppet hunting, and you edit articles fairly regularly, then we can accept this situation looks like it's resolved. Nick (talk) 03:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

What about Gp75motorsports? —BoL 03:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

As I said before, worry about yourself. —Kurykh 03:15, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This is intolerable, please, do not concern yourself with the affairs of other users when discussion on your behaviour has narrowly avoided veering towards a formal ban. I really don't wish to see you concerning yourself with matters that do not concern you any time in the near future, as it is such behaviour that resulted in this discussion in the first place. Administrators are not unfair, we deal with each and every situation as best we can. I suspect we a similar satisfactory agreement with Gp too, but I'm afraid you're actually getting in the way here now. Move on from here and go edit whatever article you wish to. Nick (talk) 03:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I would support a topic ban for both users (BoL and Gp75) restricting them to articles, article talk, and user talk, except for each other's talk page. I would also support deletion and/or full protection of most of their userspace. Perhaps a regex could be added to the Titleblacklist to prevent creation of any new pages in their userspace. This behavior has to end. Mr.Z-man 06:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Vivaviagra (talk · contribs)

Looks like we have a vandalism only account. That will more than likely need a liberal coating of LART. Their user page and username should give some indication of how much of a boon to Misplaced Pages they will be. --WebHamster 01:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

 Done. WP:AIV is much faster. east.718 at 01:27, January 13, 2008

Faster than 2 minutes? I'm impressed :P --WebHamster 01:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

tqbf (talk · contribs)

User:tqbf is Wikistalking and harassing me.

I filed a 3RR

Contacted 3RR admn.

I warned user about harassment.

My talk page

My talk page2

My talk page3

My talk page 4

We are constantly bumping heads on Ron Paul presidential campaign, 2008 talk page. I try to keep to the issues and not address him but I just want to be left alone. Especially on my talk page.--Duchamps_comb MFA 01:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what to say about this, other than that:

• I stand by this edit, and
• I'm really sorry you guys have to take your time with this.

I'm over 3RR on the relevant page, and trust that other editors will revert inappropriate changes until Monday. --- tqbf 01:55, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I reviewed User:Duchamps comb's 3RR report and found it deficient. I tried to explain to him how to do it properly, but he was not able to. The user then asked me if I felt that this was trolling by others. I told him that I didn't think so, and that his own edit here is uncivil. I tried my best to explain to him that reverting and forcing his views on others is counterproductive, and that he would get much better results from finding good sources and collaborating. He simply removed my message from his talk page. Crum375 (talk) 02:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Most of the relevant details have been provided above. My edit that Crum375 provides above makes my perspective clear (I acknowledge that this complaint would have been more effective on WP:WQA or an administrative board, but I wasn't sure whether my exasperation at attempting to edit this page was shared by others--and my exasperation was great at that particular instant). Often we have clashed because Duchamps_comb writes in a very idiosyncratic English and is resistant to attempts to remove text that (in my opinion and often others') is unsalvageable because of the construction or the sources or the use of quotes. The real problem, however: Duchamps_comb makes plenty of edits and reversions but does not/cannot engage in the necessary backstage talk in an appropriate manner. Even now on Talk:Ron Paul he is currently misrepresenting the views of editors on whether to keep a particular section in the article; whether intentionally or otherwise, I do not know. I don't really have much else to add other than to say that no other editor working on the article, whether pro-Paul or not, behaves in this way. I've never really gotten involved in this part of Misplaced Pages before, so perhaps this isn't how things work, but it would be nice if an admin without any investment in this debate took an interest in DC and perhaps made an attempt to mentor him. (For instance, if he heard that canvassing is inappropriate from someone other than tqbf or HelloAnnyong, he might be more inclined to listen.)--Newsroom hierarchies (talk) 02:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Blue Laser (talk · contribs) and Hardcore Hak (talk · contribs)

Hello. I'd like to report misuse of Misplaced Pages by these two users. They seem to think we're a chat room. I have warned them to stop, but their behavior persists. Diffs:

Blue Laser: