Misplaced Pages

"I just received a communication from Ehud" Ehud doesn't have an email address. How did he contact you? Where did he get your email address? VartanM (talk) 08:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Ehud emailed me a couple of days ago, after this whole harassment campaign against him started. I did provide my email address, and I receive plenty of communication from wiki editors, Armenian users included, btw. Is this against the rules or what? Grandmaster (talk) 08:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Ehud doesn't have an email in his account, he could not have emailed you, unless he knew your email address before hand. Do you have a diff where he asks you or you give him your email address? VartanM (talk) 09:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Not true, he can email to anyone, who hasn't disabled receiving through Misplaced Pages, even if he disabled receiving email from Misplaced Pages to his email account. Once he emails someone, his address becomes available for reply through regular email interface of the respondent. Atabek (talk) 15:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how he did it, but he emailed me. If he chose not to receive email from other users, it does not mean that he doesn't have an email in his account. He might have chosen not to receive mail from others, but in that case he can still email other users. And what does it matter? Does it somehow prove that Ehud does not exist in real life and is a sock? Grandmaster (talk) 13:50, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

He's been in communication via email with me as well. He first emailed me to thank him for unblocking, then again when he was confused about not being able to edit again (not realizing he had been reblocked). Since then, I've received several additional emails regarding his desire to prove his identity. Apparently, Adil lives in DC or NY. Ehud, according to himself, resides in TX. He has offered to do a webchat, log onto Misplaced Pages and post whatever I request on his talk page while on cam. If that's not enough, he seems willing to do what's necessary to prove his identity. Lara❤Love 14:20, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

VartanM and others, you can email any contributor while being blocked, by using "E-mail this User" feature, on the left hand side of the menu. This can be done as long as both sender and recipient have email address added to their Misplaced Pages account. It's frankly a waste of time to question these technical features.

Per your comment above, VartanM, what's really ridiculous is that a group of 3-4 people attributes one person to another without having any physical evidence of identity, having checkuser turned down, with a clear purpose, of eliminating the contributor, just because he claims to be Jewish and supports "the other party". I am not sure how far does Misplaced Pages go in terms of "presumption of innocence" or what's known here as WP:AGF. But I don't see it as normal that user gets blocked first based on obviously dubious report, no checkuser evidence, and supported by some admins and rejected by others, and only then, while blocked, is being asked to help prove that he is himself, and not someone else. Moreover, he is being charged that his username is inappropriate and he should call himself something else just because other party wants so. How does username Ehud Lesar violate any Misplaced Pages rule?

And Nishkid64, per your comment that Khoikhoi was reviewing evidence for several months, are you claiming that Khoikhoi was absent from Misplaced Pages for 2 months just to review claims against Ehud Lesar vs. Adil Baguirov? Interesting, I wonder what would be a reason for such a strong interest on behalf of what you perceive as a neutral admin, so as to take a time off Misplaced Pages for that. And I wonder why far more serious and checkuser confirmed allegations like this ] and with relevant discussion on ANI are simply ignored, while all concentrate on fact-lacking report of Fedayee. Atabek (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

VartanM and Fedayee, apart from this comment of Fedayee: The evidence about the ethnicity was that Lesar is Sephardic, even the thesis that he was from Azerbaijan does not make sense, most Jews in Azerbaijan are not Sephardic, falling simply under WP:HARASS policy, what do you mean by most Jews in Azerbaijan, how about those who are not most? I shall remind you that President of Armenia, Robert Kocharian's last name, comes from Turkish word "kochari", which translates as nomad/migrant. So do many other Armenian last names have Turkic roots. Does it mean that he is not from Armenia but something else? Such form of claims are simply baseless. Atabek (talk) 13:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This is a really strange situation. A couple of admins blocked a guy for no good reason, claming that he was a sock despite the lack of any evidence, now the guy who was blocked says that he is willing to prove that he is not a sock, but whatever he suggests is being rejected. Webcam is no good, it might be someone else sitting there, phone call is no good for the same reason, well then, Nishkid64, you propose something. We know that you are a good admin with plenty of knowledge about Misplaced Pages system. What does it take to prove that one is a real person and not a sock? What kind of proof do you want? Name it, Ehud said that he is willing to cooperate and provide any evidence that is necessary, he just wants to know what exactly he needs to do to prove that he exists in real life. We are all human begins, we all make mistakes, and admins make mistakes too. But if a mistake is made, there should be some way of correcting it. What is it in a situation like this? Any useful advice will be appreciated. Grandmaster (talk) 16:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

So, Ehud claims to be from Texas. Coincidentally, Adil Baguirov works for an energy consulting firm based out of Houston, Texas and Washington, D.C. Grandmaster, I would like to see some sort of documentation (passport, for example; he can blank out sensitive info with a screenshot), but I'm not even sure if Ehud's willing to consent to that. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure you know how many people live in Texas. It's not a small village, is it? If Ehud presents you the proof that you want, will you lift his block? Grandmaster (talk) 17:47, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Nishkid, mind WP:PRIVACY? To be honest, this is a first time I see an administrator publicly asking for someone's passport number at ANI. Perhaps, it would be more appropriate for you to contact Ehud directly and discuss with him what you need, just like Lara says she did above, instead of reposting sensitive information here. And nice comment about Texas :), and George Bush is from Crawford, Texas and lives in Washington D.C. too, he could be Adil's sock. Hope someone still has a sense of humor in this whole ordeal. Atabek (talk) 18:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Atabek, it was only a suggestion. I'm fully aware of WP:PRIVACY, and I know that he can refuse if he wants to. There is no sensitive information (how could talk about a passport be sensitive???) posted here. Ehud suggested the same thing (webcam chat) to Lara as he did to me. I argued that it wouldn't prove any identity. If you have ideas for a definite ID confirmation that would not violate Ehud's privacy, let me know. Nishkid64 (talk) 19:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I've advised Ehud to send an image of his identification showing photo and name through WP:OFFICE. So let's allow this time to happen. Lara❤Love 20:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Lara, as VartanM said, he can send you id of his friend, that is not going to prove his identity. I think the only reliable way is to verify that IP address used is not registered for person under name Adil. This way we can find out if he is Adil (in case his name is registered as user of the IP address) but he might have been using public places for internet, so it might not work as well. Steelmate (talk) 20:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Also I think this guy is Adil, as many people have identified, otherwise why would they? I am a new user as well but nobody identified me to be a sockpuppet of anybody else, be it Adil or Artaxaid or other "smart" people... Grandmaster could have been sockpuppet of Adil that he is running for more then 2 years, but also no claims regarding him being sockpuppet of Adil. Unfortunately the Misplaced Pages has no technical measures to establish identity of the user. So people remain it's main force that can bring forward evidences of his activity. Steelmate (talk) 21:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

The Lesar family lives indeed in Texas, like Ehud Lesar (because he's Adil Baguirov) as Ehud confirmed himself. Adil works as an energy consultant in Houston Texas from where the Lesar family runs its Halliburton:

Lesar family and Adil Baguirov work together for the construction of pipelines to export oil from Azerbaijan. I wonder how further Atabek wants this to be pushed, I didn't want to post this piece of evidence but you guys have pushed me to do it. I have more involving more users. I am done with this. So Lara, they will furnish you any evidence you want, they have all the resources they want, they could have one of the members of the Lesar family furnish their ID to have Adil here if they wanted. We're dealing with more than just innocent members. You don't know the situation, some Admins like Khoikhoi are aware of it. - Fedayee (talk) 21:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Fedayee, none of your speculations is a proof that Ehud is a sock. It is a pity that people in Misplaced Pages can be banned on the basis of speculations, without any real proof of being socks. Grandmaster (talk) 06:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Your way of dismissing evidence and then claiming no evidence has been provided is starting to be fishy. Grandmaster, don't you realise that you are accusing a couple of Admins to have blocked someone without evidence when they said the evidence is compelling? Do you mean to say that they are lying? The house is on fire and you dismiss it claiming that the claim of fire is speculation. Adil has used the name of the Lesar family one of his clients to post here; I think the gravity of the situation would require an indefinite block on Adil's account as such actions are unacceptable. - Fedayee (talk) 18:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There's simply no evidence to address. Admins are human being and can make mistakes. What you call "evidence" is simply a collection of unrelated diffs which prove nothing. i addressed some of Vartan's claims above. Compelling evidence would be something like this: , which for some strange reason resulted in no action. This particular issue can be resolved very simply by verifying the existence of Ehud in real life. So far we have not received any clear instructions on how to do that. From what I see, no matter what Ehud does to prove his existence, it will be rejected by certain people, who are unwilling to accept that they made a mistake accusing this user. The gravity of the situation actually requires immediate investigation of all circumstances that resulted in this block and how certain users were lobbying for it. But I hope the issue will be resolved without the need to take it to other authorities. Grandmaster (talk) 19:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, putting our national conflict aside, I am saying this as someone who has contributed alongside you for a long time. Disengage yourself from this; you will say things which you may regret. Claiming no evidence and so energetically pushing this makes this whole affair sound even fishier. And your comparison with Andranikpasha’s case can under the circumstance sound as you are attempting the change the subject. Grandmaster the evidence provided on Andranikpasha was not denied; we questioned its validity in regards to Andranikpasha’s contribution here on English Misplaced Pages, where he is behaving. So under no circumstances can it be called dismissal of evidence. - Fedayee (talk) 20:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Why should I disengage myself from this and let the innocent person remained blocked for no reason at all? On the contrary, I will be actively engaged in this until the problem is resolved, and I always stand by whatever I say. I don’t see that I said something that needs regretting. As for the rest, were these edits not made in en wiki? Grandmaster (talk) 08:54, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, given the possible relations between Atabek and Adil off-wiki, how strong would that make Atabek’s case if the Arbitration committee concludes it is Adil? You claim innocent person but you didn’t have any problem with Azizbekov being banned even though he was not a sock of a banned user. I didn’t see you do anything anywhere else like you do here. In fact, your persistence is unusual; this is why I asked you to disengage. The evidence for you would not look as one, but they do for others and your way to claim there was no evidence sounds only fishier. - Fedayee (talk) 19:36, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Whoa, wait a minute: "given the possible relations between Atabek and Adil off-wiki", Fedayee would you be so kind to enlighten us on the details and evidence of your allegation? I am not quite sure what you meant. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 17:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

How do you know that Azizbekov was not a sock? He never protested his block, he never asked me to help him. So why would I be helping him? There's nothing unusual in my persistence, I will not tolerate this injustice with regard to an innocent person. And I looked at your evidence, and it is not convincing. In fact, there's not a single proof that Ehud is a sock, that Geycha and Zangezur stuff is simply absurd. Grandmaster (talk) 05:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Response from blocking admin

Hi all. Before I explain my reasons for my block, I would like to request that people assume good faith on my part. Although I have been inactive, I still check up on these kind of things from time to time. I have known Adil for years, and this type of behavior matches that of all his other socks in addition to Adil himself. It was very typical of Adil to come out of nowhere and jump into edit wars (, ). In addition, compare some of his comments (, ) to Adil's messages (, ). Dmcdevit said on his talk page, "this will need an admin to make a judgment call based on behavior", and that's exactly what I did. Khoikhoi 07:58, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Khoikhoi. I'm glad that you joined this discussion. No one is assuming bad faith here with regard to your intentions, but people make mistakes, and this clearly is the case here. Ehud is a real person in real life, and not anyone's sock. He is willing to prove that, and I hope you will make some time to talk to him. Grandmaster (talk) 08:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Btw, I fail to see any similarity in the diffs that you posted. Maybe it is just me and you could explain us which line or part you believe is similar? You are making a mistake, and it is not too late to correct it. Just give Ehud a chance, talk to him in person.

And the argument that coming out of nowhere and jumping into edit wars was very typical of Adil does not make much sense to me either. If we use it as a basis for a permanent block, I can recommend analyzing behavior of a number of other people here. Fresh example, almost every Armenian editor turned up to vote for deletion of the category of Azerbaijani khanates:

Some of those users turned up after quite a prolonged absence for the sole purpose of voting there. See for example User:Davo88, who has not contributed since 11 December 2007, but somehow became aware of the voting on 5 January. Before voting he made only one edit in December, one edit in November, and no edits in October. Is Davo a sock? Using the same logic, he must be. I mean, we need to be reasonable here and give Ehud a fair chance to prove his existence. He has a right to keep his real life identity secret, plus, even presenting a scan of ID is not considered a sufficient proof by some people here. Ok then, what is the way for a blocked user to prove that he is not a sock? Is there any at all? I know Khoikhoi for many years as a fair admin, and I'm sure he will help us to find a way of resolving this issue. Grandmaster (talk) 09:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Khoikhoi, assuming good faith with regards to your actions, can you please, provide a list of conditions/requirements that must be met in order to confirm Ehud Lesar's identity is not that of Adil. It seems like Nishkid laid out some conditions, but then whatever is done does not work for him, and seems like the objective is simply to keep Ehud Lesar blocked and off the Misplaced Pages and permanently accuse Adil of socks without any real proof. It's really disturbing that a contributor on Misplaced Pages can be just accused and blocked without any real proof of identity, moreover, accused by Fedayee of not being truly Jewish. Are you supportive of such line of argument? Users Fedayee, VartanM, Andranikpasha always show up on various pages in order or simultaneously and revert, etc. often bringing similar positions as say banned Artaxiad (with 34 checkuser confirmed sock accounts) and Fadix. But this does not establish a ground to assume summarily, without proof of identity, that they're socks of each other. So, I simply ask for some reasonable approach, perhaps, contacting both Adil (whom you know for years) and Ehud, and confirming their separate identity, by defining your conditions. Moreover, this kind of summary block of checkuser unrelated users establishes a dangerous precedent. Who can guarantee that tomorrow one of the conflicting sides will not try to establish a sock account posing as the user from the opposite side, making similar edits, just to get that long-time user blocked? Thanks. Atabek (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that there is an effective way to prove real-life identity in this case without having Ehud edit with a trusted user looking over his shoulder (literally) while the banned user (who is actually willing to cooperate here) edits at the same time (even then, some may argue that the password for the latter was given to a proxy). Short of a polygraph test, what can he do? El_C 10:36, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Good question. Is there some sort of an established procedure that needs to be followed in situations like this? Grandmaster (talk) 15:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ehud refused to provide identification to me. However, I told him he could send the picture of his passport through WP:OFFICE. He said he would do this. We'll see what happens now. Nishkid64 (talk) 17:50, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

A picture is hardly any evidence... - Fedayee (talk) 18:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why the burden of proof is being placed on the accused. If you can't prove he is a sock, I don't see how you have a right to block him. If there is only speculation and assumption regarding possible sockpuppetry, he should be treated as an individual editor and any action should be based on his editing patterns as opposed to those of another, in this case Adil. If he's edit-warring, having civility or NPA issues, then block accordingly. Otherwise, leave him to his editing. Lara❤Love 17:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

There is contribution evidence linking Ehud to Adil. There are certain things that Adil did in his edits. These things have also been found in Ehud Lesar's editing. I don't see how that's speculation or assumptions. The people who say he is not a sock are the ones who Ehud sides with - the Azeris (Grandmaster and Atabek). They are just dismissing Fedayee's evidence and Khoikhoi's analysis of the contributions because they do not want to lose one of "their" editors and they think this is some ethnically-motivated block (apparently, they think that because an Armenian provided the bulk of the evidence in the case, then it must be clearly biased). So far, they argue that Ehud's innocence can be proven by his real-life identity. I haven't seen any of the Azeris show on-wiki evidence, showing that Ehud is not AdilBaguirov. Lara, there's another thing you should know about the AA case. Most of these editors (both Azeris and Armenians) spend their time edit warring and making Misplaced Pages a battleground. This is why the dispute has gone to ArbCom twice. Adil was banned until February 2008 (later extended to August) because he was one of the worst offenders. Since then, Adil has resurfaced under a number of socks, some of which were never detected by CheckUser. When you see evidence that a new editor, who just happened to start editing at the same time it was determined that Adil would be banned from Misplaced Pages, makes contributions similar to those of AdilBaguirov, then you naturally will suspect that there might be something going on. Fedayee provided a comprehensive list of similarities in the contributions of these two editors. Khoikhoi, an admin on Misplaced Pages who has spent more than 2 years in the midst of the AA situation, examined the contributions of Ehud Lesar, and found that he was definitely a sockpuppet of AdilBaguirov. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Also note that there are four (possibly 5, if you include Daniel Case, who declined the unblock request) neutral administrators (FrancisTyers, Khoikhoi, Alex Bakharev and myself) who independently determined that Ehud was a sockpuppet, by looking through the user's contributions and/or through Fedayee's evidence. Nishkid64 (talk) 18:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you serious? Lara, Adil has used countless socks and many are not on the list right now. Did you take a look at Batabat, the same claim, the same request… he wanted to call and webchat. We aren’t even talking about any evidence. We are not dealing with a user who was banned then is using another sock, we are dealing with a user who runs this account in parallel to several others to disrupt. Then let’s invite other banned users and say as you say. Adil is living in Houston Texas and Washington DC. I guess he didn’t mention you this important piece about Texas. Even the location points to him, neither that one of his major client is the Lesar family (and that he usurped their name). And we aren’t even at the beginning there as we aren’t even discussing about the conflict of interest and Adil’s involvement off wiki, including meatpuppeting off wiki to bring people to fight Armenian propaganda. - Fedayee (talk) 18:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Grandmaster, Davo has been a member of Misplaced Pages for nearly two years, and you know why he does not contribute much on English Misplaced Pages and you kow that he still checks it. Stop using analogies which you know aren’t accurate.

You never have you addressed all the evidence posted here, on my evidence page and the arbitration enforcement. Singling some of them and answering to them with obviously wrong analogies is far from dismissing the evidence provided. When taking all the evidence together and treated together, there can be no resonable doubt. - Fedayee (talk) 18:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Nishkid64 is providing inaccurate info by saying that only Azeris dismiss Fedayee's info. Fedayee's allegations were rejected at WP:AE board by at least 3 admins: If the evidence was so compelling, why do you think it was rejected before? I think Nishkid64's persistence to have Ehud blocked is simply gonna result in another arbcom case on this topic. We still haven't received any explanation what a blocked person needs to do to prove that he is not a sock and why someone actually needs to prove that he is not sock, when there's no proof that he is a sock? Nishkid64 is simply siding with one of the sides of the dispute, i.e. with Armenian users, who want to get rid of one of Azerbaijani editors, blindly accepting their "evidences" and not giving the unfairly blocked user any chance to defend himself. Such approach is not acceptable, and will lead only to further escalation of the conflict in this part of Misplaced Pages, which as we know usually result in another arbcom case. Grandmaster (talk) 19:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You are escalting things unnecessarily. You are also exaggerating Ehud as an editor and misleading everyone else by polarizing this case as "us vs them". What does it mean: Armenian users, who want to get rid of one of Azerbaijani editors? That's quite strong language there. Ehud is by no means just another Azeri editor as Grandmaster is trying to portray him. Some might even read your last few comments as borderline threats. Again, any neutral party reading the mountain of evidence compiled against Ehud can tell that it's a single purpose account and a sock of Adil. -- Ευπάτωρ 19:27, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

It was a response to Nishkid, who actually introduced this us vs them terminology in this thread. He said in his above post: The people who say he is not a sock are the ones who Ehud sides with - the Azeris (Grandmaster and Atabek). Somehow he failed to mention that neither Lara, no admins at AE board are Azeris. Using Nishkid's language, people who were lobbying for Ehud's block belong to another national group. I don't see any necessity to stress national affiliation here, but since Nishkid started doing it, I have to address it. Grandmaster (talk) 19:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Fedayee's original claims were unfounded, because uninvolved admins at AE did not have any specifics of sockpuppetry. Much of the admin involvement came before Fedayee had organized his evidence and posted it on a user subpage. Picaroon commented that he wanted more behavioral similarities and that he was a bit confused about the whole Geycha thing. Jayvdb read it, but never commented on its merits, as far as I know. Thatcher closed the discussion because there was "no confirmation of sockpuppetry" and placed Ehud Lesar on revert parole. Judging from this, I don't even think Thatcher read the evidence. He made his judgment based on the discussion of AE. So, Fedayee's allegations were not rejected or dismissed at AE by at least 3 administrators, as Grandmaster claims. In fact, it appears only one user actually commented on Fedayee's evidence - Picaroon. Apparently, he wanted some sort of behavioral analysis of the two users' editing patterns. I don't take sides in the AA dispute. I just enforce policy. I did not blindly accept their evidence. I also told Ehud Lesar last night on Google Talk (read above) to send a picture of his passport through WP:OFFICE. I've been more than cooperative in these dealings. As for the "us vs. them" thing, I only brought it up because of your numerous references to AA ArbCom cases and Armenia vs. Azerbaijan. Also, my previous response was directed to LaraLove. Why would I would refer to her if I'm talking directly to her? Nishkid64 (talk) 19:44, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

So you are saying that threads at WP:AE are being closed without actually being read? If not, what in your opinion "no confirmation of sockpuppetry" supposed to mean? Grandmaster (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

See the diff I posted of Thatcher's contributions. He closed the Eupator section on AE at 03:06, 31 December 2007, and the Ehud Lesar section two minutes later. The time differences for his previous contributions show that he was editing every few minutes. I don't think you could grasp all the evidence posted by Fedayee in just a few minutes. Nishkid64 (talk) 23:31, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

This does not mean that he did not read the page before, while discussion was in progress. Grandmaster (talk) 07:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)