User talk:MastCell: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 20:15, 18 January 2008 editOrangemarlin (talk \| contribs)30,771 edits →I'm pretty much done: Really sad about this project← Previous edit		Revision as of 20:33, 18 January 2008 edit undoMastCell (talk \| contribs)Edit filter managers, Administrators43,155 edits →I'm pretty much done: replyNext edit →
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	::The scary part is the case. Beer drinking is acceptable. A case of beer is questionable. I'm just frustrated by this place. Creationist stuff is bad enough, since we're building a generation of science-stupid children, there's no need to compound the issue. But these articles about medicine and ] frustrates me. And of course, the articles that keep me away from the frustrating articles are now being damaged by people with agendas. Maybe this project just isn't going to work out. Maybe the idea of a Democratic Encyclopedia just can't happen whenever individuals with their own agendas push hard to get what they want. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 20:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)		::The scary part is the case. Beer drinking is acceptable. A case of beer is questionable. I'm just frustrated by this place. Creationist stuff is bad enough, since we're building a generation of science-stupid children, there's no need to compound the issue. But these articles about medicine and ] frustrates me. And of course, the articles that keep me away from the frustrating articles are now being damaged by people with agendas. Maybe this project just isn't going to work out. Maybe the idea of a Democratic Encyclopedia just can't happen whenever individuals with their own agendas push hard to get what they want. ] <small><sup>] ]</sup></small> 20:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

			:::Eh, if a person believes that endlessly diluting a noxious substance renders it curative of a pathologically unrelated process, then nothing Misplaced Pages has to say on the subject is going to persuade them otherwise. Similarly, when confronted with a seemingly magical or inexplicable phenomenon, some people will jump on a supernatural explanation while others will search for ]. Misplaced Pages can't change those responses; it just gives people a place to fight about them.
			:::I'm mostly concerned about specific cases where the imprimatur of science is being misapplied to things which are not scientific, generally by single-purpose agenda-driven accounts with a likely or explicit conflict of interest. If people oppose abortion on moral or whatever other grounds, then I'm fine with that. However, if they oppose abortion because they read a misleading article on Misplaced Pages claiming that there's medical evidence of a "]", then that's a problem. Same goes for ] - if people are just contrarians, then what can you do? But if they're mislead by a single-purpose account spinning the "debate" and employing an old tobacco-industry playbook of ] and plausible deniability, then I'm not happy. If someone wants to take garlic tablets because they believe in herbal medicine, then more power to them. But if a herbal marketing consultant has edited the ] article to suggest that the benefits of garlic are more medically substantiated than they actually are, or that ]s are poisonous, then that's a problem. All three of these examples are drawn from my direct experience.
			:::I'm on record as wishing it were easier to deal with obvious agenda-driven accounts, but this place can be a bit dysfunctional and prone to being seized by the hysteria-of-the-moment. Still, where else do your words have the opportunity to inform or educate so many people at once? ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 20:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:33, 18 January 2008

If you're here to leave a message about an article I've deleted, please check the deletion summary. If it contains the words "Expired PROD", then the article was deleted via the proposed deletion process. This means that another user (not me) tagged the article for deletion. If there was no objection within a 5-day period and the rationale appeared sound, then I deleted the article as a housekeeping task. If you think the deletion was mistaken and the article meets the notability criteria, then please leave me a note and I'll restore the article for a formal discussion at articles for deletion.

Archives

(Date ranges are approximate)

Welcome to Misplaced Pages!

Dear MastCell: Welcome to Misplaced Pages, a free and open-content encyclopedia. I hope you enjoy contributing. To help get you settled in, I thought you might find the following pages useful:

Don't worry too much about being perfect. Very few of us are! Just in case you are not perfect, click here to see how you can avoid making common mistakes.

If you are stuck, and looking for help, please come to the New contributors' help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your questions.

Wikipedians try to follow a strict policy of never biting new users. If you are unsure of how to do something, you are welcome to ask a more experienced user such as an administrator. One last bit of advice: please sign any dicussion comment with four tildes (~~~~). The software will automatically convert this into your signature which can be altered in the "Preferences" tab at the top of the screen. I hope I have not overwhelmed you with information. If you need any help just let me know. Once again welcome to Misplaced Pages, and don't forget to tell us about yourself and be BOLD! -- Psy guy 04:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

For administrative bravery

File:Haig-award.png		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar & the General Alexander Haig Medal of Honor
		These barnstars are presented to MastCell for courage and clear thinking in the face of obstinacy. -- Fyslee / talk 01:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW

This is too good an idea to let go. Given that most Misplaced Pages articles are unreferenced anyway, it might not be too hard if you got the help of someone who knows how to write scripts that would parse the articles. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:48, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's on my to-do list. Technical assistance would certainly be useful... maybe I'll ask around. Thanks for the encouragement. MastCell 17:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like it too. Now that you have to keep your head down from Charles Matthews. :) OrangeMarlin 07:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus Batesmethod article ?

In the history of this article you mentioned consensus about the intro. I Have not read anything about consensus. I have only read disagreement. Can you clarify your statement ? Gladly read your feedback. Seeyou (talk) 21:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Please see the article talk page. Briefly, it would appear that myself and two other editors prefer the version to which I reverted. My sense, from observing this article over a fairly protracted period, is that you are a single-purpose account with a likely conflict of interest, or engaged at the very least in tendentious editing. You need to try to convince other editors on the talk page that your preferred version is superior; right now you're engaged in a slow edit-war to try and force your version, which isn't going to be successful in the long run. MastCell 22:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Attempt for Consensus on Reardon Article

Can you please explain why my edits were "From the POV of the Elliot Institute?" I added information directly from the findlaw.com article in a neutral detached manner, added links to the actual ballot measures, and removed the POV links. I even added a link to the missouri cures website which is referenced without cite in the previous version of the paragraph. As stated on the talkpage:

The Facts are as follows:

The Elliot Institute was promoting a ballot measure titled: "Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People".
Missouri Cures was promoting a ballot measure titled: "Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative."
The Elliot Institute website promoting the measure mimicked the Missouri Cures Website.
Missouri Cures filed suit in Federal Court for Copyright violation, and was granted a temporary injunction which temporarily shut down the Elliot Institute Website.

Those are the facts. The Summary I added contains all of those facts, as reported by Findlaw, and linked to the Missouri SOS website.

New Paragraph:

In 2006 the Elliot Institute launched a petition initiative in Missouri titled "Regulation of Human-Animal Crossbreeds, Cloning, Transhumansim, and Human Engineering Is Reserved to the People". The initiative was promoted via the Elliot Institute's website. The layout of the website mimicked ("cloned") the look of a website maintained by the 'Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures' which was at the same time promoting Missouri Constitutional Amendment 2 (2006). The Missouri Coalition for Lifesaving Cures sued the Elliot Institute in federal court for alleged copyright and trademark violations and an emergency injunction was granted which resulted in the temporary shut down of the Elliot Institute Website.

Old Paragraph

Reardon and the Elliot Institute opposed The Missouri Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative in 2006. Reardon created an opposition website which mimicked the site of the initiative's supporters; Reardon's website was ordered temporarily shut down by a federal judge as a violation of copyright.

Please explain why an old version that contains only two sentences and is factually incorrect takes precedent over a new paragraph with non-partisan secondary mainstream sources that contains more information and is factually correct? Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Thanks for your input on the Talk Page. I appreciate it. Ghostmonkey57 (talk) 22:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)Ghostmonkey57

Protection of Bates method article

MastCell, why did you impose a month's "protection" on the Bates method article in response to a single anonymous edit, which by your own revert you indicated that you agreed with insofar as what it removed? As well, no comment was made about what said edit added, though it was reverted. From Misplaced Pages:Open_proxies: "Open or anonymising proxies may be blocked from editing for any period at any time to deal with editing abuse. While this may affect legitimate users, they are not the intended targets and may freely use proxies until those are blocked." Regardless of what transpired previously, it is difficult to see how one essentially constructive edit done through a proxy server warrants a month's ban on edits by unregistered or newly registered users. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.169.129.126 (talk) 04:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not a single anonymous edit, as I'm sure you're aware. The article has been hit by dozens of Tor proxies in the past few weeks. It's a controversial article and one afflicted by conflicts of interest and charges of sockpuppetry. The edits from the open proxies are highly unlikely to be those of new users, and much more likely to be those of an editor attempting to avoid scrutiny. In any case, on a controversial article where there are issues of COI and alleged sockpuppetry, anonymous open proxies are not particularly welcome to join the fray, for the reasons set out in the open proxies policy on English Misplaced Pages and meta. If a new user simply must edit the Bates Method article right off the bat, then they can register and get acclimated for 4 days before jumping in. It probably takes at least that long to familiarize oneself with the lengthy dispute, assuming of course that one is in fact new to it. MastCell 16:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

SSDD

Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/VacuousPoet (5th). Pretty clear cut, but since I've noticed your blocks on one or more of the sock/sockpuppets, I thought you should know. OrangeMarlin 09:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Place jumping

I just beat you to it here. That was really silly. Lawrence Cohen 00:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup. MastCell 00:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

ANI Suggestion on Waterboarding

I've made a suggestion on ANI about a possible way forward. Check it out and let me know what you think Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Last_time_I.27m_doing_this:_Talk:Waterboarding_.28again.29 SirFozzie (talk) 03:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for being willing to get involved. I commented there. I've long since developed the sense that our existing approach to dealing with these kind of free-for-alls is woefully inadequate, so I'm open to any suggestions about new ways of doing things. MastCell 03:56, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This suggestion was initially used in The Troubles ArbCom case and has seemed to at least reduce the amount of "The usual folks editing in the usual way". The only thing I can think of that would be a problem.. do we as admins have the right to do that ourselves (Ie, set the terms of monitoring the article), or do we need an ArbCom finding to do so. If we need ArbCom, we might as well go ahead and ask ArbCom to take a look at it now, and save time. Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles SirFozzie (talk) 04:08, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles

An Arbitration case in which you commented has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, — Rlevse • Talk • 22:16, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Raphaelaarchon sock back

Another handful of edits from User:71.100.9.83 at Talk:Glenn Greenwald‎ accusing me and others of a great conspiracy to hide the truth, or something. You blocked this IP last week for the same. Chris Cunningham (talk) 19:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I blocked the IP for another week, and will escalate it further if it continues to be a problem after that week expires (assuming the IP appears reasonably static). MastCell 20:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey

I resemble that remark! If you mark that frame an 8, you're entering a world of hurt. --Spike Wilbury ♫ talk 19:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that was probably overkill. And it wasn't that lame of a joke, so I probably wasn't being fair. MastCell 20:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

And in an example of instant karma, I just accidentally blocked myself while intending to block an IP sock. Consider it a 1-minute self-imposed block for rudeness. :) MastCell 20:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Mangled 3RR Block Request

Thanks for responding to my request despite its technical deficiencies. I see what I did wrong and will do better if there's a next time. PhGustaf (talk) 07:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem. It's actually quite challenging to put together a seamless 3RR report, so don't feel bad. When the violation is that clear-cut, the technical details are less vital anyway. MastCell 20:57, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Gon4z

has a new IP: 82.45.201.125. I reported him, admin User:Riana blocked him for 3 days, if he returns, please help keep an eye on him. --noclador (talk) 12:09, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Fibromyalgia

Hi, I am in need of assistance on Fibromyalgia. User:Djma12 is pushing a text that is at odds with the sources provided. I have reported User:Djma12 for WP:3RR but can't do anything more without violating 3RR myself, since User:Orangemarlin has, as always, jumped in to oppose me. I would ask David Ruben, who has edited the article, but he is on wiki-break. Regards, Guido den Broeder (talk) 15:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

While the issue on Fibromyalgia seems to be at least halfway solved, User:Orangemarlin unfortunately continues on the warpath with disruptive editing behaviour on Chronic fatigue syndrome and spreading lies about me on his talk page. Guido den Broeder (talk) 20:22, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't lie. Personal attacks will get you blocked again. OrangeMarlin 20:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Mastcell

To quote Emily Dickinson

"Truth is Manifold"

As such wikipedia as an expression of truth is an oxymoron

Just wondering what you think?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.80.72 (talk) 17:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

To quote Henry David Thoreau, "Please leave me alone." MastCell 19:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

"Censorship"

I responded on my talk page. Neitherday (talk) 03:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Question about "inaccurate summary" warning

MastCell, you left a note on my talk page suggesting that the summary of my change to Passive Smoking was "inaccurate or inappropriate." I'm afraid that I don't understand what was wrong with it and neither you, nor the person who undid my change John Quiggin left me a clue about what the problem was.

My edit (#183911362, 14:37, 12 Jan, 2008) was factual, provided a citation, and added information about dissenting scientific opinion to what otherwise appears to be a rather biased article.

Can you explain (a) What would have made a better edit comment and (b) whether you agree with the undo-ing of my addition and, if so, (c) where I can challenge this? (I understand that undo/redo-wars are bad-wiki-form.)

Thanks! Oliepedia (talk) 05:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The edit summary in question said: "Added reference to British Medical Journal study." The edit itself described the essentially unanimous scientific consensus on secondhand smoke as merely "popular among the anti-tobacco movement" but "by no means universally accepted". That's a bit more than simply adding a reference. I do agree with the undoing of the edit; I'd encourage you to take a look through the article talk page (if you haven't already), as the issue of how to present the "dissenting" view has been discussed ad nauseum. For example, Enstrom/Kabat's study is already mentioned, in a more complete context, earlier in the article. The relevant portion of the NPOV policy is WP:WEIGHT. The best approach is probably to bring up your proposed edit on the article talk page and discuss it. MastCell 17:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Thanks for the clear answer. Oliepedia (talk) 01:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

May need your help with AFD

So, hope you have some time to delegate your Jurisprudence. Thank you, Igor Berger (talk) 09:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If you mean technical help with nominating an article for AfD, just let me know and I'd be happy to help. If you're asking for my !vote on a specific AfD, then please be careful to mind WP:CANVASS. MastCell 17:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I would never ask for a vote, and I do not believe in votes. I like how level headed and neutral you are. But it seems okay now the discussion is getting past the vote phase and more into a solution phase. You are welcome to comment Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Andy_Beard Thank you, Igor Berger (talk) 23:22, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Requesting unprotection of Animal Face-Off

Hi there. You semi-protected this article back in July to prevent an edit war. As it has now been protected for approximately six months, do you agree that it is probably safe to unprotect it again? Thanks in advance. Terraxos (talk) 03:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Yup, absolutely. I've gone ahead and unprotected it. Thanks for the heads-up. MastCell 04:29, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

User talk:88.234.95.232

Our link deleter is back, with IP address User talk:88.234.95.232 this time. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. I'll probably semi-protect a couple of the target articles briefly. MastCell 17:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Demote admin User:Y

Thank you for closing the discussion. Don't think for a moment that I enjoy fighting on the WP:AN. I feel that User:Y does not behave as an admin should behave, and he never apologized to User:Be best and User:W guice, and he was never warned for his behaviour (see User talk:Arbeit Sockenpuppe and User talk:Y, nothing there). If I attack you personally right now, you will warn me not to do it again, right? So what's the difference between me and User:Y? Anyway, if you don't want to discuss this any further or don't know the answer to my question, you don't have to answer at all. --Koreanjason (talk) 18:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I think he was being flippant, which is a risk in online media because sarcasm and humor often don't come across. At the same time, people generally aren't severely disciplined for a single (or a few) off-hand sarcastic remarks, and I don't think anyone reading the exchange would take away anything negative about you. If you made similar remarks, I don't think I'd suggest blocking or otherwise discplining you. I think sometimes the best thing to do is just move on - it's too easy for minor disputes to become self-sustaining, and it ends up exhausting everyone. If User:Y gives you a hard time in the future, then that would be one thing, but for now why not just let it go? It's hard to see this sometimes, but dropping a dispute like this is sometimes the action that reflects best on you. MastCell 19:01, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Genny Cream

They definitely still make that nasty swill. A friend of mine insists he loves it. Gnixon (talk) 19:02, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, turns out there is actually a Misplaced Pages article: Genesee Cream Ale - I must have been misspelling it when I originally searched. MastCell 19:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty much done

Your email was scary. Then I saw this on a supposedly non-controversial article, without a single piece of discussion. Then I saw this attack commentary on another non-controversial article. Then I notice Gnixon here posting away. I can put up with POV-warriors, nutjobs, and other difficult types, but when nice articles like these two get destroyed by people with an agenda, attacks and whatever else floats their boat, it's no fun. I think I'll have more fun having my toenails extracted without anesthesia. OrangeMarlin 19:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

To be clear, the case I referred to in my email was not typical, but was the worst I've seen in my time on Misplaced Pages. Still, it's had a cautionary effect. Unless the scary part was that I used to drink Genesee Cream Ale; in which case be assured that I've moved on. MastCell 20:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The scary part is the case. Beer drinking is acceptable. A case of beer is questionable. I'm just frustrated by this place. Creationist stuff is bad enough, since we're building a generation of science-stupid children, there's no need to compound the issue. But these articles about medicine and snake-oil medicine frustrates me. And of course, the articles that keep me away from the frustrating articles are now being damaged by people with agendas. Maybe this project just isn't going to work out. Maybe the idea of a Democratic Encyclopedia just can't happen whenever individuals with their own agendas push hard to get what they want. OrangeMarlin 20:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Eh, if a person believes that endlessly diluting a noxious substance renders it curative of a pathologically unrelated process, then nothing Misplaced Pages has to say on the subject is going to persuade them otherwise. Similarly, when confronted with a seemingly magical or inexplicable phenomenon, some people will jump on a supernatural explanation while others will search for the man behind the curtain. Misplaced Pages can't change those responses; it just gives people a place to fight about them.

I'm mostly concerned about specific cases where the imprimatur of science is being misapplied to things which are not scientific, generally by single-purpose agenda-driven accounts with a likely or explicit conflict of interest. If people oppose abortion on moral or whatever other grounds, then I'm fine with that. However, if they oppose abortion because they read a misleading article on Misplaced Pages claiming that there's medical evidence of a "post-abortion syndrome", then that's a problem. Same goes for secondhand smoke - if people are just contrarians, then what can you do? But if they're mislead by a single-purpose account spinning the "debate" and employing an old tobacco-industry playbook of FUD and plausible deniability, then I'm not happy. If someone wants to take garlic tablets because they believe in herbal medicine, then more power to them. But if a herbal marketing consultant has edited the garlic article to suggest that the benefits of garlic are more medically substantiated than they actually are, or that statins are poisonous, then that's a problem. All three of these examples are drawn from my direct experience.

I'm on record as wishing it were easier to deal with obvious agenda-driven accounts, but this place can be a bit dysfunctional and prone to being seized by the hysteria-of-the-moment. Still, where else do your words have the opportunity to inform or educate so many people at once? MastCell 20:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)