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"Misrepresentation"

Perhaps it was just a poor choice of a word on your part, but still you're making an accusation of an editor (though it's not clear which editor), when you should be focusing on what the discussion is about.

As for my own claims that "we're making little or no progress", here are some diffs of your own edits that I think back this statement, though I never indicated what editors I was referring to: --Ronz (talk) 03:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the summary. You and Adam characterized our responses as "Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!" You even put it in quotes. --Anthon01 (talk) 05:12, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I quoted Adam. Please do not misrepresent me, as it is a very serious violation of WP:TALK to do so. --Ronz (talk) 05:39, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You quoted and then signed you name to it. Seemed like an endorsement to me? --Anthon01 (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

And I've explained myself. If you continue to argue for misrepresenting me, I'll seek WP:DR. --Ronz (talk) 05:46, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

So you disagree with Adams characterization? Did you feel that repeating it was helpful to moving the conversation forward? --Anthon01 (talk) 16:21, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Is that an apology to me? --Ronz (talk) 16:35, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

No. It is two questions? I am trying to understand what you meant to communicate. --Anthon01 (talk) 16:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

And I've asked you to stop misrepresenting me. Please address this, as I'm unwilling to take this discussion further if this is the type of thing you're resorting to. --Ronz (talk) 17:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You said "The article is fully protected because of this disputed information and the arguments are basically , as Adam Cuerden put it...." You said the the arguments are basically, as Adam Cuerden put it... This can be interpeted as an endorsement of Adams comments. Then I said "Must be a misunderstanding. but your summary isn't an accurate depiction of the conversation" Do you believe that what you wrote is an accurate depiction? Please clarify you position. Then I will issue an apology if needed. --Anthon01 (talk) 17:40, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for addressing my concerns. I wrote other things as well. You're taking what I said out of context. --Ronz (talk) 17:51, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think I took anything out of context. --Anthon01 (talk) 18:13, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Then I'm taking this to a third party, as I've already indicated multiple other things I wrote that answers your question and which you are now not taking into consideration. --Ronz (talk) 18:17, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

You said

The problem brought up in Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive337#Quackwatch continues. The article is fully protected because of this disputed information and the arguments are basically, as Adam Cuerden put it,

"Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!"
"Well, yes, but they never claimed to be. Do you have any reliable source in a notable publication mentioning that?"
"Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!"
"Without a source, that's original research and a violation of WP:SYNTH"
"Quackwatch is NOT scientifically peer-reviewed! We MUST say that!"
"ARRRGH!"

The arguments began 27 November 2007. Over 400 edits to the talk page later and we're making little or no progress. --Ronz (talk) 19:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

and then 2 1/2 hours later you said

Like Adam Cuerden, my concern is that the discussions are just going in circles. We've already had a large number of outside editors give their perspective after two requests for outside opinions. --Ronz (talk) 21:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Then I said

Must be a misunderstanding. but your summary isn't an accurate depiction of the conversation at Talk:Quackwatch. I'm sorry you see it that way. --Anthon01 (talk) 02:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

What did I take out of context? --Anthon01 (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to look at the context. You've taken my quoting of Adam out of context of the above, as well as the additional comments that I've made to clarify the situation. --Ronz (talk) 18:58, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Going in circles is accurate. Characterizing the conversation as Adam had and you reiterated is an inaccurate depiction. --Anthon01 (talk) 19:20, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I didn't reiterate it. Please stop misrepresenting me. If you are actually so concerned with what Adam wrote, I would have expected you to actually discuss it with him. Perhaps you should do so now?

You might also want to look through WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL, if you're not already familiar with them. --Ronz (talk) 02:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Reiterate means to repeat. Adam said it and you repeated it. Anthon01 (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And I see no reason to continue this discussion. I suggest you look to WP:DR if you want to continue. --Ronz (talk) 02:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

On that, I can agree. --Anthon01 (talk) 02:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:MENTOR

Since you're fairly new here and editing mostly in extremely controversial articles, it might be a good idea for you look at WP:MENTOR. It's a good way to get a neutral viewpoint to help you learn the ropes here. --Ronz (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

That's great. Are there mentors waiting in the wings, so to speak? --Anthon01 (talk) 18:39, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Pretty much. I wish someone had let me know about it when I was first starting to edit Misplaced Pages. --Ronz (talk) 18:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's never too late! -- Levine2112 18:55, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I've got experienced editors helping me now, mostly admins. --Ronz (talk) 19:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I strongly suggest you look to finding a mentor. --Ronz (talk) 18:01, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you know but I just learned this myself

Hi, on your user page you have 'Policies' and links under it. Well if you want the links to tell you what it is then at the end of the URL put a space then in quotation marks say what the link is. For example, "Anthon01 talk page" and you will see just what is in quotes but the link is still there which you can tell by just putting your mouse over it. I am just trying to help you as a new user since it takes me a long time to learn things I thought I would share this with you. I hope this is helpful to you. Also the above suggestions for a mentor is really good I have one and it is helpful for me. Happy editing --CrohnieGal 15:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I really appreciate your help. I actually have left the links that way as it will help me memorize over time the WP shortcut for each link. If I am misunderstanding you please clarify. I have a question. What is the customary way to respond to a talk page comment? Would it be here as I have, or on your talk page? --Anthon01 (talk) 16:06, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I understand, memory in not something I do too well which is why I have all those links on my user page so I can remember where they are. As for your question, the way I have my preferences set up is that if I post to someone it get put on my watchlist so that I can know if there is a response. Some don't have it set that way probably but I would think answering here would work and if your response required a response and you don't get it in a reasonable amount of time then I myself would go to that user's page and repeat my response. I hope this makes sense! :) --CrohnieGal 17:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Anthon01 (talk) 17:32, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

RE: Physical therapy

Yes there is, you can place a request for page protection at WP:RFPP, but they will probably deny your request because they want to see a recent pattern of vandalism, and by recent i mean today. 9 vandal reverts within a week unfortunately is a norm of articles that receive a lot of viewing. If you have any more questions please let me know. Cheers! Tiptoety (talk) 17:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine‎

Welcome to Misplaced Pages! I am glad to see you are interested in discussing a topic. However, as a general rule, talk pages such as Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine are for discussion related to improving the article, not general discussion about the topic. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages. Thank you. --Ronz (talk) 20:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

So why did you chose to discuss it on that page? You even created a separate section for it. --Anthon01 (talk) 20:36, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I tried to move the discussion along with two edits:

1. Pointing out the actual facts
2. Creating a subsection, expounding on my previous points, and pointing out that the subject is unfit for Misplaced Pages as is

--Ronz (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Barrett

On the Quackwatch talkpage, you stated, "I took that statement to mean what everyone else has, that the review board reviews when Barrett request it. I also confirmed it with Barrett." Can you produce a copy of the personal communication by which you confirmed it with Barrett? It would be most helpful. Thanks, Antelan 19:28, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be happy to do that. How would you like me to send it to you? Please explain what the purpose of sending it would be? --Anthon01 (talk) 19:33, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Collaboration requested

Please reconsider this reversion. Since I found that version disagreeable, the collaborative move would be an attempt to find a better (third) alternative. Right now the current title can still give the impression that generally alternative medicine gradually becomes accepted, which is far from the case. Very little of what is now termed alt med has any chance of being accepted. That which has had a chance has already been accepted, and what is left is left for a reason. The wording I chose was chosen because I felt it didn't leave any impression one way or the other. I tried a neutral wording. Maybe it did leave an impression I wasn't noticing. If so I'd like to know what it was. In which case I'd appreciate that you choose a third alternative that is even more neutral instead of just reverting to a version I obviously found disagreeable. -- Fyslee / talk 07:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate the gesture and will reconsider. More to come.:) Anthon01 (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate you gesture I am happy to collaborate with you. I think this discussion could set a positive tone for future collaborations. Please allow me state my position before we consider collaboratively changing the title. You state that "Very little of what is now termed alt med has any chance of being accepted." I do see how you and others with a similar POV might interpret the title to mean that. In my opinion, your POV is influencing your read of that title. However the title itself doesn't say "most of these therapies will migrate," it simply implies that this section covers how therapies migrate without stating percentages, chances etc ... IMO, the title on its face sounds textbookish or encyclopedic and is neutral.

So why do you believe that most of what is going to be accepted already has been? Do you have a reference, a highly reliable and 'relatively neutral' source that suggest that? I don't see it the way you do, maybe because our lists are different. Looking at the NCCAM site, which lists a large number of CAM therapies, I see many that are likely to be accepted, perhaps not whole but significant aspects of many of these therapies. Help me understand what you mean by "Very little of what is now termed alt med has any chance of being accepted." Anthon01 (talk) 15:26, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm a bit uncertain how to answer this: "So why do you believe that most of what is going to be accepted already has been?" Could you please reword it? I just don't understand it. Maybe my rusty English after 24 years living in Denmark. I will be happy to answer, but just need clarification. -- Fyslee / talk 17:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah ha! I just reread it and realized you were actually including a paraphrase of what I wrote above. I thought it was your thoughts and I couldn't figure it out.

Starting over again. I think that most of what is left has already been investigated and found wanting, or is so pseudoscientific, metaphysical, or outright quackish, that it has little chance of being accepted. Of course we no doubt have different lists, so you correctly describe probably a good part of the reason why we see things differently, and that's perfectly fine. I can deal with that. What list are you looking at? Just copy it here and write what you think has a chance (or what part of it has a chance, even if the rest of it may not), and I'll add my comments. This way we can at least get to understand each other. Kind of like comparing each other's baseball cards as kids.....;-) That's the nice thing about a conversation on our private user talk pages. We can discuss things like this without distracting from discussions in article talk space. It's also nice to get to know each other. I suspect that in real life I'd enjoy sharing a beer or bottle of wine with some who seem to be adversaries here. In reality we are just normal people who are coming from different places and actually have some understandable reasons for why we have our particular POV. If we understand where each other is coming from, it makes it easier to assume good faith and be more patient with each other. I actually hate all the controversy. It's just not me. -- Fyslee / talk 18:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. I'll work on that. Anthon01 (talk) 21:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Response to you on my talk page

Good morning, I use both alternate and conventional to help me with my Crohn's. I don't know what CAM is so I am sorry I can't answer that part. But I use supplements, things like massage and things along these lines. My family also has used chiroprator's for their back problems. I had a very nice editor here that helped me understand what to expect during this. I hope this answers your question. --CrohnieGal 12:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Specific statement not included

From what I understood, the proposal was to remove all the stuff about the mission statement. This is independent of the mission statement. So, I think you have misinterpreted what was being discussed on talk. Cheers. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:27, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

While I don't find this statement relevant to the scope, I do find it relevant to the history. I'm fine with keeping it in for now. ScienceApologist (talk) 03:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

citations

brief guide on my talk page. DGG (talk) 03:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Quackwatch and WEIGHT

Generally speaking, yes. But note that WP:WEIGHT applies to the overall balance found in the available acceptable sources, the overall POV found in specific sources, and specific views found in parts of a source. If an article is neutral (complies with the NPOV principle), picking and choosing from a source may inject bias. A biased article may be made worse or improved by selective quoting. In cases like this, the approach found in SA's #1 version will make sure that the addition does not change the current balance. There's much more to be said, but I think this covers the basics. Avb 17:54, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Your vote is requested

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany_for_deletion/User:Oldspammer/Robert C. Beck

-- John Gohde (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

QW source

I think shortening the excerpt removes the rationale, i.e. why it matters that QW is not peer reviewed. —Whig (talk) 02:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy holidays!

I just want to wish you a very Happy, Healthy Holiday! May 2008 be a good year, happy editing. --CrohnieGal 17:11, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Private communications

Given all the bantering about on my talk page regarding personal attacks, violations of Civility Rules, and whatever; I have set up an Email Me feature on the very top of my talk page which provides for completely private communications. -- John Gohde (talk) 18:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine (again)

Please do not use talk pages such as Talk:Complementary and alternative medicine for general discussion of the topic. They are for discussion related to improving the article. They are not to be used as a forum or chat room. See here for more information. Thank you. --Ronz (talk) 18:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

3rr warning on Quackwatch

As you may be aware, you're up to three reverts on Quackwatch. Further reversions may result in a block. See WP:3RR. Please use the talk page. Cool Hand Luke 21:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

He also appears to have three, and yes, I've warned him. Cool Hand Luke 21:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Quackwatch (again)

Please stop using talk pages as forums to discuss other editors' behavior. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 23:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't using it to discuss behavior but why his edits don't work. Anthon01 (talk) 23:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a mess going with Ronz too. Anyway, thanks for doing some refactoring on the QW talk. Pete St.John (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Anth, thanks for notifying me about ScienceApologist. I'm sorry for the result, because I think he's not so far from being approachable, and he makes a real effort to explain his points, and people who goad him to excess hostility, from the sidelines, are getting away with it. QW is a mess, and there's a meta-mess with adversarial wiki-legalism overtaking content-driven consensus-building. But anyway thanks. Pete St.John (talk) 18:25, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

AN post

I just wanted to notify you, there's a discussion regarding you on the administrator's noticeboard. Maser 22:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

No problem, I always make a point to ensure that editors are aware oof discussions involving them. :) Maser 23:29, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Please consider refactoring and explaining

I have no idea what you're referring to here, but I think you should refactor it before any attempt at explaining what you're referring to:

Ronz, where are you? Your characterization is UNCIVIL and factually incorrect. The Consultant Pharmacist and the Village Voice are not quacks.

--Ronz (talk) 19:06, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I see you are continuing to comment to Talk:Quackwatch without making any attempt to respond to my comment above. Please strikeout the comment I've quoted above from Talk:Quackwatch, and apologize for these baseless accusations. Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 19:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No accusations. I notice you sometimes leave message when SA starts to respond in uncivil manner. I was requesting your assistance. Anthon01 (talk) 23:46, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I see. It could be read as you're accusing me, when instead you're accusing SA. Either way it's inappropriate. Please refactor it. --Ronz (talk) 17:32, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that is necessary as SA often writes in an uncivil tone and has currently been blocked for this. Anthon01 (talk) 17:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

And you escalated the situation by using the talk page to harass SA. Please refactor it so that at least you're clear who you are harassing. --Ronz (talk) 19:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 01:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

WTB and ScienceApologist

I haven't seen a concrete proposal from SA. In general, the dispute centers on the use of the observer principle by the movie. Its usage clearly contradicts all science, but we aren't allowed to refute the specific usages in the movie because the reviewers did not go into that detail, even though any good reference on QM clearly contradicts the movie.Kww (talk) 13:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Please stop with the wikistalking

Thanks! --Ronz (talk) 19:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Ronz but you are mistaken. Anthon01 (talk) 20:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

You're the one that is clearly mistaken. Please stop with the harassment immediately. --Ronz (talk) 00:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I myself prefer when slanderous allegations are accompanyied by specifics so they can be either rebutted or corrected. Ronz's habit of broad strokes of the tarbrush infuriates me. Anyway, the above is a specific example of his broad brush with no specifics. Presumably he assumes what specifics are meant from context, but if one were to assume good faith, then logically you can not be assumed to know what rule you are breaking by what specific mistake, or you would not have made the mistake. Pete St.John (talk) 20:01, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what is going on here except that the three of you are having a problem with each other. As an outsider reading this though, I find the above to be uncivil to say the least. Please, let's all just get along. It's really not that hard to be polite, but if that is not possible in your eyes then avoiding each other is best till tempers cool down. I know there is a problem between Anthon and Ronz but I don't understand why PeterStJohn has added his/her comments as the comments seem to be escalating the problem between the two, not helping. Please, everyone, try to avoid each other for awhile or try to talk it out civily. --CrohnieGal 11:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

You said, "escalating the problem between the two." Which two? You mention that "everyone, try to avoid each other for awhile." I don't have a problem with Peter, nor does he with me, so there is no need for us to avoid each other. Ronz repeatedly initiates comments on our talk pages about our behaviors. I think Pete is complaining that the accusations "like wikistalking" that, in our opinion, don't assume AGF, and/or accusations without specifics needed for 'rebuttal or acknowledgment' are disruptive. I personally don't have a problem with Ronz, but I find his/her recent focus(past 3 weeks or so) on edits by Peter and myself, that he/she deems inappropriate, while ignoring ScienceAplogist, who was recently banned for incivility, curious. I have agreed to avoid Ronz, but he has not agreed to do the same. So, you may have to take that up with him. Anthon01 (talk) 16:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Your mediator has been indefinitely banned, after indicating that he was assuming bad faith of me. How do we proceed now? You seem to want your behavior excused because of what ScienceApologist is doing. --Ronz (talk) 17:00, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Blood electrification

Hi Anthon, and Happy New Year to you! I am terribly sorry for being so late in my reply to your question. I guess I have too many things on my plate at times! -- Fyslee / talk 20:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No worries. I too owe you a response to the excellent discussion you proposed, that is CAM thearpies that might migrate to medicine. Anthon01 (talk) 20:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes. I had pretty much forgotten about that one, but I think it would help us understand each other better, and barring the possibility of sharing a beer or bottle of wine together and just chatting and getting to know each other, it would help us get along much better here, and I would appreciate that. Even though we do have different POV, just being able to disagree agreeably would be a big step in the right direction. AGF doesn't mean agreement, but just not imputing deliberately evil motives towards one another. I think we have managed to stay away from that sort of thing! Take care. -- Fyslee / talk 20:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Re. About WP:BITE

I have explained the situation to Vfrken‎. I think you tried to help and to ensure that the user did not feel unwelcome, which was very nice of you. I think for the most part you handled this situation quite well. You ensured the editor was welcomed and assisted, and remained civil throughout. One thing, though, is when you welcome someone, be sure to leave it on their user talk page instead of their userpage, so the orange "you have new messages" bar'll appear. ;)

However, the reason Ronz has accused of Wikistalking you is likely because you have had previous encounters with this user, and there does appear to be disputes of sorts between the two of you. Though you were quite civil and well conducted on his talk page, I recommend altogether keeping some distance from him, and instead focus on editing articles. :) Maser 07:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm accusing him of wikistalking because I was already in discussions with him about harassment, and because he named me specifically, in violation of WP:TALK, when it was another editor, if anyone, who did anything even the tiniest bit wrong. --Ronz (talk) 16:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What appears to have happened was you tried to assist somebody who may have felt bitten, and Ronz felt that you were interfering, and in that light, may have even felt as though you did it in a way that made him look uncivil, and as a result felt you were stalking him. What I think you should try is to not have any real involvement with Ronz or his affairs at all for now - take a breather, and edit articles. You seem to be interested in Quackwatch, maybe you should just get back to editing there. :) Maser 04:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

But I had already handled the situation before either of you got involved, and I wasn't the one that did anything that could even remotely be considered BITE. Another editor could have been better, but that editor's actions were ignored, while I was first singled out and then accused. Anthon01 caused the problem, escalated it, then ran to Maser Fletcher for help. After I discussed the situation with Maser Fletcher, he admitted he had assumed bad faith. Now Anthon01 is annoyed that I am upset at his behavior. --Ronz (talk) 17:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

This is the nicest message you have left on my talk page in a long time. Thank you. However on several points you are mistaken.

• No one accused you. You have mispoken.
• I simply suggested politely that you consider WP:BITE.
• Sorry but the situation was escalated when you accused me of wikistalking
• I never said I was upset with you behavior. You have mispoken.

Anthon01 (talk) 19:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining your perspective. However, you're still ignoring my concerns, especially that of wikistalking. --Ronz (talk) 20:16, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Editing

Your wikistalking of me needs to stop. You have been found guilty in the past by a wikipedia inquiry of POV editing. you have refused to discuss your changes, indeed you said you thought your edit was the same as mine. It is not. Please desist with this style of editing. Mccready (talk) 00:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Please provide diffs that confirm your accusation. Anthon01 (talk) 01:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Your recent CAM edits

Mccready: We (myself and other editors) have discuss my changes on the talk page. Please check these sections of the CAM talk page.

You ask for a discussion but I can't find one comment by you on the talk page. I notice you repeatedly make the same edit, but haven't chosen to participate on the talk page. Please consider letting your views about adding QW at the top of the page be know in that section. I look forward to your comments. Thanks. And you recent edit summary

anthon your have been found guilty in the past of POV editing. you have refused to discuss your earlier changes, indeed you said you thought your edit was the same as mine.

is blatantly false. Perhaps your have mistaken me for another user. Cheers.Anthon01 (talk) 02:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

References

Hey, sorry I missed the fact that you had duplicated my comment before removing the duplicate. My bad! You can remove that duplicate if you'd like. Antelan 18:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

"balance" of pharmacologist's review of QW

I don't myself have a strong opinion about the overall review in question; my sense was that on the whole it was positive, but that is not germane to the quote for which we (originally) used the review; which was just to establish (with an acceptable citation) that QW didn't at that time use peer-review for it's own articles (not necessarily any reason they should, but the matter had been questioned) and that a reviewer existed who recommended that they do. My own purpose was merely to acknowledge a legitimate criticism of QW (not to condemn QW over it; like most complex things, QW has better and worse facets). SA then wanted to balance the representation of the review itself (but the article is about QW, not the review; so the representation of QW should be balanced, not each and every reference within it). But I don't think it does any harm to the article (other than a bit of bloat) to use the review to also cite praiseworthy things. I think it's knee-jerk protectionism but not harmful, so I consider the longer material, with postive stuff alongside the (constructive) criticism, to be compromise towards consensus. I feel the whole thing is blown out of proportion but that seems to be true of every issue there. Pete St.John (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I see the review as mostly a neutral explanation of what Quackwatch is, essential just the facts. I don't see one positive comment made by the reviewer himself. I have ask a few editors to point out a positive statement made by the reviewer, but no one has beem able to point one out to me. Anyway, I to agreed to the compromise, but apparently that wasn't enough. Anthon01 (talk) 20:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

revert war at QW talk

I posted notification of the Wikiquette item regarding Ronz at the QW discussion page (which you evidently noticed). Ronz has deleted it twice, I have reverted 3 times (by my count; the first time was an ammendation to cite the specific wiki policy allowing the item, but I count that as a revert). He has now asked SA to chip in, and now SA has deleted it once. One might hope for a "third" party to chip in, but meanwhile, please feel free to help out. I think actually edit-warring over a conventional, neutrally worded notification is not what he wants. This can be a bizarre darn place. Pete St.John (talk) 19:38, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

For your convenience, from my Talk:

Peter. Just hold on, I will see what I can do. You run the risk of being blocked. Anthon01 (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, yes. I'm a big advocate against superficial wikilegalism camoflaging eristic and repetitive and otherwise unethical rhetoric, and I'm willing to take risks. There's just too much of that shit, it's pernicious and much harder to cope with than mere vandalism. It's ok if they delete the notice, it's in the history and the wording (re neutrality, harassment, and canvassing) can be judged by others later. Pete St.John (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

thanks again yes again, I replied at my talk. Pete St.John (talk) 20:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

regarding the tally count (reverts at QW talk) that you mentioned at my Talk: my count is 2 or 3, and I'm conceding 3 so not reverting any more. Is there a way to count it as more than 3? Pete St.John (talk) 21:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Unlikely. It looks like the notice will stay. Anthon01 (talk) 21:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

yeah. I answered re "confusion" at my talk. Also, I pity whoever addresses the Wikiquette item, if anyone does. What I don't understand, is what happened to the quacks? I'm happy to believe that fraud-promulgation and anti-scientific wishful-thinking have spammed the QW article in the past, but I haven't noticed any since I've been involved; it seems the only problems are excessivly defensive wikilegalism on the part of the pro-science party. It makes me meta-nuts that I'm seen as pro-alt-med, which in turn is seen to be equivalent to anti-science. It's nuts. Where are the claims for dynamization and potentization? Although I see the Homeopathy page is blocked. Pete St.John (talk) 21:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Do you think I should place my complaint is a separate section, detached from yours? Anthon01 (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the subsection you made is pretty convenient. We're complaining about the same things, pretty much. 22:21, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I'm getting dizzy; I was just going to your talk, to let you know I'd replied at...your talk. Pete St.John (talk) 22:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

LOL. Anthon01 (talk) 22:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

RfC re Ronz

The Wikiquette item is now referenced from a new RfC. Pete St.John (talk) 18:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

How I treat editors

Sorry that you don't like that I don't treat editors completely and totally the same no matter how they behave . I don't think most editors would have a problem with this. --Ronz (talk) 19:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You often make assumptions instead of AGF. THat is what I don't like. Also with me, when you are wrong, you don't admit it or apologize. Anthon01 (talk) 19:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. I do make assumptions, but I do my best to respond to the facts of the situation and assume good faith when there's the any doubt. The situation with your mediator is a case in point, where it turned out he was the one assuming bad faith, and admitted as much. --Ronz (talk) 19:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

You are using the mediator as a smoke screen. Your bad behavior began before the mediator got involved, when you accused me of wikistalking, instead of AGF. You could have cordially contacted me and ask me to explain why XYZ instead assuming I was stalking you. Finally, and unrelated, some editors far more egregious behaviors get a pass. Anthon01 (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I try to be better than the warning levels for the uw templates (eg Misplaced Pages:Template_messages/User_talk_namespace#Multi-level_templates). If I had my way, I'd rewrite the descriptions of the different levels to be more focused on previous behavior. For instance, I almost always give a uw-s1 warning to someone whose spammed for the first time, or hasn't yet received any spam warnings. I'll start with a uw-s2 warning only in the most blatant of cases, usually where the editor has already reverted back his own spam. I doubt if I've ever started with a uw-s3 warning to anyone, though I may have when they've already received related warnings at level 2 or higher. I try to follow the same approach with other situations. --Ronz (talk) 20:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

If you are willing to talk this out, then I am happy to do that with you. I will AGF. Are you willing to do the same? It may not be your intention but the terse/brute warnings come off as aggressive and as an attack. It comes off as 'big brother overlooking my every move.' There are many editors who are constantly pushing the limit of civility here. I am not one of those editors. IMO, if you intention is to help create a better environment at wikipedia then I think your approach needs to change. And in case you haven't seen this yet, please look here. Anthon01 (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Let's try talking it out. I think this specific discussion has gone well so far.

(edit conflict) As for Wikieditor9999, I've probably been much too lenient with him. He's headed for a block, and nothing that anyone has done so far has slowed him down from that path. I wish the mediator that responded to his request was able to follow up quicker. --Ronz (talk) 20:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't want you to think that I am not interested in continuing this conversation. I have not responded as I see you are on a wikibreak. I will await your return. Anthon01 (talk) 19:54, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Your question

Hi Anthon01: no, I'm not an admin. Not that it should make a difference -- Misplaced Pages is run by consensus. Admins don't have more "power" than other editors. The main thing is other editors' trust and support; the more experienced and the more successful in collaborating, the better. FWIW, when I first encountered Ronz, I thought he was an admin, in view of the (IMO) superb (though unasked for) advice he gave me on my talk page. Avb 20:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply to your second question: You can find my special user rights here; for others simply enter User: followed by the editor's name in the Title box. Avb 00:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

where are the diffs

I know what a diff is in programming but what are you looking for in this context? Here is the dispute page ] and here come the deletionist trolls... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikieditor9999 (talk • contribs) 21:08, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop pretending to be an administrator

The gang of magic-believing morons who have ruined Misplaced Pages may be able to sit on pages like homeopathy all day and prevent them from being improved by brute force, but you do not get to give other people "warnings" for being "uncivil" just because they live in the real world. If you don't remove this I'll have to report you for pretending to be an admin. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I took a shot at explaining this at his Talk. Pete St.John (talk) 20:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. He is working towards a block. Shit, I'm starting to sound like you know who.:-) Anthon01 (talk) 20:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. I think it's important to remember that all of us (all who brazenly undertake contentious articles, anyway) get exasperated sometimes. I know myself I've: been hasty and superficial replying to, or reacting to, a merely poorly-worded item, or when I was just working too fast; I've been dismissive, arrogant, and maybe sometimes outright insulting; and I can exacerbate others' frustration just by being too detailed, verbose, loquatious, or circumloqutory, or by arguing a point that seems small to them (coming as they do from some different background with some different values), or by using unnecessarily complex sentences (as I am sometimes wont to do, not, of course, lately). The Wikieditor9999 thing is a mess; he's facing the same problems I am (Ronz et al) but his own rhetoric is quite deficient (for what he's up against). Pete St.John (talk) 21:52, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

WTB

Anthon... I wanted to mention as per your comment on the Bleep talk page that the suggestion that some will not accept pseudoscience is a blanket statement that is a teeny bit insulting. There have been several instances were editors were willing to keep the infamous word in the lead to have some progress made, any progress, and to respect the views of other editors but inevitably the version would be tossed out at the last minute. Don't mean to be petty, just wanted to mention this. Thanks for your involvement on the article. Much appreciated.(olive (talk) 22:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC))

You're right I misread your comment. I have been hashing out this lead for so long, well, I didn't want to be misunderstood .... refactoring wasn't ever needed.Couldn't understand the comment given the versions suggested. Glad to know it was my misread. Many apologies for misunderstanding. (olive (talk) 00:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC))

Hi Anthon. At this point I don't see that I could add anything of use to this discussion. If I see a place where a comment seems appropriate I'll jump in. We've been through so much of this multiple times with multiple versions I was willing to accept, some with "pseudoscience" some without, it seems pretty fruitless right now. But will keep an eye on the article. Thanks(~!olive ([[User talk:Littleolive o

il|talk]])) —Preceding comment was added at 14:27, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh my gosh! What a mix up! ... No I was responding to Ben's comments on the Bleep talk pages. And was referencing Skeptic's dictionary when I said, Give me Break . I actually wouldn't speak like that to another editor unless under a lot of duress, and hopefully not then. Skeptic's Dictionary has a disclaimer on the website.... they don't intend to be neutral in anyway. That was my point. I'm sorry if you thought I was attacking you. Not my style , and at any rate I agree with you . If this goes to some larger discussion I will be there fighting all the way.I just felt that at this point in the Bleep article I was out of arguments. I referenced Misplaced Pages in every way I knew how and I got some outrageous responses. I can handle the responses.... I try to at least. I will be there for any "up the chain" discussion on the topic at hand. (olive (talk) 19:03, 17 January 2008 (UTC))

And now looking at the Bleep article, this comment as a response was made many comments ago to something Ben said . I guess in some ways I support you both since both of you seem to be reasonably arguing positions per Misplaced Pages. I have to stay out of this for now. Best wishes.(olive (talk) 19:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC))

SA

His page history is gone because he has left Misplaced Pages. See RTV. Antelan 03:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Avb too. I have mixed feelings. Pete St.John (talk) 19:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think SA is gone. He is up to something. Check out his page. Anthon01 (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I just noticed; darn weird. Pete St.John (talk) 20:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Much appreciated. Would that everyone felt the same. :) GlassCobra 19:52, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed this conversation and the one above. I am very saddened by the lack of WP:AGF and WP:NPA. What's going on here? Is having editors leave or banned/blocked a goal or something? I think what is written here lately is out right rude and some of this should be struck out. You all can't believe that what is being said above and in this thread is useful to the project. I'm sorry for butting in but three editors quit ysterday and that's the only one's I know of. You can read more at . I hope everyone can now get along and this will stop. Sorry again for butting in but when I saw this I was very upset at what was bing said. --CrohnieGal 01:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Crohnie. Please AGF. You are taking this out of context. Like you, I take no delight in seeing editors banned or blocked. There is nothing cruel or nefarious going on here. I'm confused. Please point out the exact text that you think is cruel? Anthon01 (talk) 01:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Anthon, I always try to follow WP:AGF & WP:NPA just to name a couple of policies I believe I always follow. But the comments above do not follow these policies and it seems like some of the editors here are poking a large stick into a couple of other editors with hopes that they lose their tempers which I feel is not proper.

I guess what I am trying to say as politely as possible is that no one should be allowed to provoke other editors in an attempt to make them lose their tempers and get themselves banned or blocked (either blocked for an amount of time or blocked from editing specific areas.

The threads here, again just to name a couple are in my opinion; is rude and poking at other editors;, and . These kinds of comments are not useful, nor polite nor do they take WP:NPA & WP:AGF as serious policies. I hope you understand what I am trying to say here. --CrohnieGal 20:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

ChronieGal, I still don't know what you are concerned about as the links you posted above do not outline the specific text but point to sections with multiple comments. Perhaps diffs might illustrate better the comments you are concerned about or quoting the text you are concerned about with an explanation of how they violate AGF and/or NPA? Anthon01 (talk) 21:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Crohnie, where you wrote (a few inches above here): "I just noticed this conversation and the one above..." you gave the impression that you were concerned with wording in this conversation. I'm sure you have many legitimate concerns about other threads, but I'd like to know what specifically you object to in this conversation. Thanks. Pete St.John (talk) 20:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes this thread, here are the quotes I find disturbing and not assuming good faith nor no personal attacks. Bolding is from me;

His page history is gone because he has left Misplaced Pages. See RTV. Antelan 03:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

(Here Antelan informs you that SA has left)

Avb too. I have mixed feelings. Pete St.John (talk) 19:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

(Here Peter says Avb did too, what's with the mixed feelings comment?)

I don't think SA is gone. He is up to something. Check out his page. Anthon01 (talk) 19:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I just noticed; darn weird. Pete St.John (talk) 20:00, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

(This pretty much is self explanatory.)

Much appreciated. Would that everyone felt the same. :) GlassCobra 19:52, 17 January

(And here GlassCobra was asked to leave SA alone, so what is this all about? Also Peter, Avb is a good editor and tries hard to be fair and knows policies really well so why are you having mixed opinions about him leaving? I have to say, Avb is a nice person who helped me a lot so I am probably sensitive to this and may have misunderstood do to my liking him. SA I don't know at all and didn't have any contacts with him until lately. I would appreciate an explanation because it is possible that I misunderstood things, but the feeling I get from above is that having editors leave like this makes you both happy. Sorry if this sounds like not assuming good faith but I really want to understand and I am trying to assume good faith but it all seems likes a personal attack on these two editors to me. Thanks for listening and I hope this doesn't give us bad feeling with each other. (sorry did not proof read or spell check! :) ) --CrohnieGal 23:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I also am very curious about the two threads above this, one is "Stop pretending to be an administrator and WTB. I think the first one is in regards to Ronz but I could be mistaken. But you have to see that the thread is down right rude and incivil. The second one is about the bleep talk page. I have been invited to catch up on this article to see if I can help. I haven't had time yet but I do plan on checking in on it. I hope this explains my concerns. --CrohnieGal 23:54, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration notice

This is to inform you that you have been included as a party in a request for Arbitration here ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

On science

Found an open access site for Arne Næss, my idol! :) I think he has some highly relevant papers, and was himself one of those who formed the consensus science we have now. This one is a good starter, but I'll look if I find something better. [A Plea for Pluralism in Philosophy and Physics. Interesting? Benjaminbruheim (talk) 07:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

ArbCom

Hi,

One can include one's self in an arbitration. I think the most needed thing is to explain to them why it isn't a content dispute (heck, we're within one or two words on content most of the time). I kind of think they don't want to take it because it looks too messy, and they are afraid to really clean up such a spread-out mess. I don't have time right now though..... So if you can think of a better focus that does not actually restrict the things which can be considered when into the case -the pushing of "S"POV is a major concern, as well as civility and disruption-, then let's withdraw and do that. I'm not set on any one course of action. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 20:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Stay off my talk page

I'm going to tell you the same thing I told to User:Levine2112. Stay off my talk page. I don't need advice from you, I don't have any desire to find out what your opinions are of discussions going on my talk page, and I have yet to see any contributions from you that make me feel confident in your intentions with regards to me. ScienceApologist (talk) 02:10, 20 January 2008 (UTC)