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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Misplaced Pages. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

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Current requests

Rachel Marsden 2

Initiated by Mike Bate (talk) at 17:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Mike Bate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• JoshuaZ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Thatcher131 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Chick Bowen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Relata refero (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Pocopocopocopoco (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Clayoquot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sceptre (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Rachel Marsden

Statement by Mike Bate

The Rachel Marsden dispute has been here before. The page was deleted and salted, but was brought back after the usual suspects insisted on her notability and said they would keep the page to the basics of her life. Within a few days it became the usual list of smears and innuendos. It is particularly galling that several of the perpetrators are admins, despite the warnings of ArbComm last year to BucketsofG and Bearcat, (neither of whom have resumed their online attacks on Rachel Marsden via Misplaced Pages). I request the page be permanently be taken down and salted, that the admins who have protected the biased version be de-sysopped, and that Clayoquot, who posted a link to her anti-Marsden, anti- Misplaced Pages administration blog on the application for restoration of the Marsden page be banned from editing all pages connected with Canadian politics and the blogosphere. Mike Bate (talk) 17:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As for Victoriagirl, she may well be a sockpuppet/second ID of Clayquot. The two of them tag-team on subtle leftist torquing of Canadian articles, while Victoriagirl also has a pretty impressive history of wiki-lawyering and alleging sockpuppetry when editors dare challenge her views (see the edits and histories of David Suzuki, in which Victoriagirl and Clayquot not only keep out any criticism of this guy -- who is at least as controversial in Canada as Marsden -- but also tag, report and have banned anyone they don't like). Unlike Clayquot, however, there is no evidence that Victoriagirl maintains an anti-Marsden blog that criticizes any attempts by wikipedia admins and arbcomm to tone down the agenda-pushing and outright libels in the Marsen entry.

I believe any admin who added or supported the inclusion of the material saying Marsden was "investigated for criminal harassment" should be seriously censured. That is police-state talk. People can complain to the police about high-profile ex-girlfriends. Then they can take that complaint -- which pretty much has to be investigated -- to the papers, and that can go into rather shabby newspapers. Then it's quoted by an encyclopedia? I can go to my nearest police station and report that I believe -- or have reason to suspect -- the local Catholic archbishop is a pedophile. The police, of course, will open a file and investigate until they either lay charges or realize I"m wrong. And that should be placed in the bishop's Misplaced Pages entry? So how about if someone -- let's say, um, Rachel Marsden -- is involved in a he-said, she-said sexual harassment allegation. And then she has a bad breakup with a boyfriend. The police, of course, are going to know who she is. And that's what happened. She got probation for sending some weird e-mails after she got ditched by some guy. Now it's going to be on Misplaced Pages, since some British Columbia editors like Clayquot and Victoriagirl are gunning for her. And now some ex-boyfriend had her investigated, so that tittilating fact should be on Misplaced Pages?

My opinion, which I've made personally to Jimbo: don't do bios of any living people. None. Start another site for Who's Who-style entries, just the facts and none of the smear. Man, would that ever solve some problems on Misplaced Pages and get rid of a lot of people who wikilawyer their way into making Misplaced Pages their personal political project.

The fact that Sceptre/Will sees nothing wrong with an article that reports "investigations" is precisely why he should be de-sysopped. That's pretty poor judgment. Also, admins really do need to know Arbcomm's BLP policy, and should have read last year"s decision in this case. The fact that there's such a wide range of ideas of what constitutes fairness and proper activity regarding living persons shows there's a need to develop consistency and to deal with admins who recklessly post or protect material that is hateful, damaging and often libelous. (

I notice, too, the Rachel Marsden talk page has been edited to remove the chear-leading by one admin who was encouraging an editor to add more smear. Mike Bate (talk) 22:59, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope arbitrators look to see which parties address the issues of BLP and which engage in personal attacks, accusations and smears. As for the old remedy working, just one question: Has it? Mike Bate (talk) 12:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:JoshuaZ

If I have time I may expand on this in more detail but at present I really don't see there being any serious issue here. The most recent AfD and DRV on Marsden established that she is highly notable, well beyond the point that we could salt the article, and it is clear that her controversial past is found in many different googlable sources, some of whom directly connect it to her current work as as a pundit. This new user Mike Bate (who seems to have just shown up seems to be oddly familiar with the situation) has not attempted to work out on the talk pages any form of consensus about how the BLP issues should be handled. We do of course still need to be very careful about how to handle this, but the way forward at this point is discussion not arbitration. Arbitration is at best premature. JoshuaZ (talk) 17:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by John254

There is somewhat of a problem with Rachel Marsden (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). While the deletion of the article was recently overturned as a result of deletion review, the article was restored in a stubbed form with the page history deleted, as the prior revisions constituted WP:BLP violations due to their excessive focus on negative events in Rachel Marsden's life. My recent expansion of Rachel Marsden produced what may be the first WP:BLP complaint, non-stub version of the article. However, JoshuaZ recently restored some of the material from the deleted revisions, after which Nick protected the article in what I consider to be a state inconsistent with the biographies of living persons policy, as it gives undue weight to negative information concerning Rachel Marsden. Note that m:The wrong version does not apply to WP:BLP violations -- page protection should be employed to enforce the policy, not to thwart it. John254 17:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, however, with Mike Bate's contention that Rachel Marsden needs to be deleted and protected against recreation. As the article is fully protected, the information which constitutes undue weight simply needs to be removed, and administrators instructed not restore it. Deletion is not an acceptable remedy for everything that ails Misplaced Pages articles. Additionally, Mike Bate's request to have the administrators responsible for this incident desysopped is without merit -- there is no reason to believe that JoshuaZ and Nick would not respond to polite instruction from the Committee. John254 18:29, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with Nick's claim that WP:BLP does not require biographies of living persons to be written in a fair and balanced manner. In the previous case concerning this issue, the Committee found that

Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons requires that information which concerns living subjects be verifiable and that biographies "should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone."

and that Rachel Marsden constituted a WP:BLP violation as a result of undue weight:

Rachel Marsden, in its negative form, is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages:biographies of living persons.

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff reaffirmed that the requirements of the biographies of living persons policy extend beyond issues of verifiability. John254 18:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Response to John254 by Nick

The BLP policy is primarily designed to ensure that no unsourced and problematic material is introducted into articles, creating legal problems for the Foundation, it is not some magic policy that can be used to prevent Misplaced Pages from covering negative issues on a subject. If we have too much fully sourced content from reliable sources, then we should be expanding the article to make the negative material less of an issue, not removing it completely, anything less than that and we're censoring perfectly acceptable material.

I should also state that John's account of the situation is completely inaccurate, I did not come along and protect the article after the re-insertion of problematic material, I came along after two single purpose accounts had edit warred with established and respected editors over the inclusion of such material, and protected the page to prevent edit warring and further tedentious editing, one edit I noticed was an attempt to have the article speedy deleted. Nick (talk) 18:34, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Further response to John's most recent comments.

I'm again finding myself having to clarify the comments that John has made, which although made in good faith, are again inaccurate and portray myself and other editors in a somewhat unflattering light. I did not say that material should not be balanced and fair. The BLP policy is designed to instruct how we write about subjects, not what we should and should not write about. I find that the content on the Rachel Marsden page is broadly consistent with the BLP policy - the material is balanced, fair, well sourced and reliable, there might be room for a little tweak here and there, but removal of much of the content surrounding the incidents will not make the article any more balanced. Some of the content that was removed is not negative at all or balances out more negative aspects. Nick (talk) 18:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Pomte

There is consensus that Rachel Marsden is notable. She is known and reported not for one or two controversies, but four of them, as well as her work in media and politics. So why arbitrarily pick which controversies to make note of? The multitude of reliable sources on her warrant more than a stub. The current version does not violate BLP by letter or spirit. To balance the weight even more, I have listed sources at Talk:Rachel Marsden for expanding the section on her career. Mike Bate has not attempted to reword the verifiable "smears and innuendos" to address any POV concerns he may have. Our goal should be to neutrally express these controversies, not to remove them just because the subject appears to be on the negative side (is she?). Mike Bate's claim about Clayoquot may be worth looking into, but that's unrelated to the merit of this article. –Pomte 18:39, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Sceptre

I don't see why people are taking the two trolls seriously. I've been keeping a watch on the article since its recreation and I see nothing at all wrong with the article. In particular, the controversy section is okay by me, and I don't like such sections in articles, period. I'd also be very amused if I get desysopped in this case (if it is accepted, and that's a snowball in Africa's chance) seeing as there's nothing to desysop from. Will 19:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Victoriagirl

I note that Mike Bate neglected to add his name to the list of parties involved, as directed in the instructions. I've corrected this error. I agree with Will's comments concerning this particular request for arbitration, and add that the process is intended as "last step of dispute resolution on Misplaced Pages." I see no evidence that Mike Bate has addressed the concerns he expresses above at Talk:Rachel Marsden. Indeed this post aside, his only posts on the article's talk page involve this request for arbitration. It has been noted that Mike Bate, a new user, appears very familiar with the history of this article. I suggest that the current Arthur Ellis checkuser request may prove to be of relevance. Victoriagirl (talk) 20:12, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As Mike Bate has suggested that I am a sockpuppet of Clayquot (above), a charge repeated at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Arthur Ellis, I ask that the case be presented at the appropriate forum - namely Suspected sock puppets. Victoriagirl (talk) 05:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Chick Bowen

As I found at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 7, there is no consensus to keep this article deleted; that close and my subsequent comments based on it are my only involvement with this article. The argument that an article should be deleted because of material added to it makes no sense; if the material is indeed unacceptable, then the article should be protected, as it currently is. Chick Bowen 22:25, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Crotalus horridus

The contribution history of User:Mike Bate indicates that this is probably not the user's first account. His 11th edit was to a checkuser request page, and by his 18th edit was threatening User:JoshuaZ with arbitration and de-adminship. Needless to say, this level of familiarity with Misplaced Pages policy isn't usually what would be expected of a newbie. WP:AGF only goes so far, and this rather stretches credulity.

I think there's a strong possibility that Mike Bate, under some other name or handle, is a regular poster on Misplaced Pages Review. His "no biographies of living persons on Misplaced Pages" notion is all the rage over there, as is his concern with JoshuaZ in particular (there's a perma-pinned thread devoted specifically to attacking JoshuaZ on WR). Although there is no way for me to determine this with certainty, Mike Bate may also be a sockpuppet, or an alternate account of a blocked or banned user. *** Crotalus *** 03:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by non-involved User:Pocopocopocopoco

I am not sure why I have been added as a party. I have made 1 or 2 edits to the article which have been subsequently rewritten. I have to agree that the article in it's current state is a tad on the negative side however I believe this could have been resolved by discussing the article in talk and coming to a consensus. I also believe in the good faith of all involved and that nobody is "out to get" the subject. If this case is accepted (which it sounds like it won't be) what I would like to see is a ruling to the effect that the amount of negative and positive information in the article is to be determined by the editors of the article and not by admin tools. Also, above user:Mike Bate referred to user:Clayoquot's blog as being an anti-Marsden blog. He is referring to a post she made in the DRV for Rachel Marsden posted on this page. I don't see how this is a huge deal as the DRV is not googlable and it is hard to find but perhaps it couldn't hurt if an admin would courtesy blank Rachel Marsden's DRV. Also, I have to humbly disagree with user:Crotalus horridus above regarding Mike Bate being from Misplaced Pages Review. As mentioned above Mike Bate started a checkuser against user:Arthur Ellis for a bunch of new editors that were editing David Suzuki, he wrote that this was on behalf of a request by user:Victoriagirl. Subsequently his name was added to the checkuser after which he started acting disruptively and added a whole bunch of unrelated users to that checkuser and also blanked that checkuser twice. Please refer to his editing history at the checkuser. I think it's safe to use the duck test and say that user:Mike Bate is a WP:SOCK of user:Arthur Ellis. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Clayoquot

I do not have time right now to write a full statement, however I wish to point out that I do not have an anti-Rachel Marsden blog. I have a blog with exactly one long post in it. I would characterize it more as a criticism of Misplaced Pages than anything else. I also agree with Poco's WP:DUCK assessment above; it is quite obvious that the person filing this complaint is a sockpuppet or meatpuppet of the only person who has ever been banned from from editing all pages connected with Canadian politics and the blogosphere (and who is now community-banned). Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 06:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Relata refero

I don't see why I'm listed as an involved party, really: I've made precisely one minor edit to this iteration of the article. (I wasn't notified, I came across this purely by chance.) I'd appreciate being removed from that list.

On the issues, I think its quite clear that John254's expanded version was something of a violation of WP:UNDUE in that much of the subject's notability in reliable sources appears to emerge from the various harassment/stalking controversies. If a living person notable by our standards has received attention that some believe is largely 'negative', I do not see how that implies, under current practice, that NPOV within the article is suspended. It is merely a challenge to write a respectful, measured and encyclopaedic entry that manages to place the issues in proper perspective.

If, however, it is the case that in such cases BLP overrides NPOV, as the admin who closed the DRV seemed to imply, I think I'd appreciate an ArbCom ruling stating that. That is the only consideration under which this case would make sense. Relata refero (talk) 11:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/0/0)

• Reject. This remedy is still valid. -- FayssalF - 11:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Webby Awards

Initiated by Dario D. (talk) at 04:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Dario D. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiating party)
• Wikidemo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Wikidemo#complaint_filed

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Dario_D.&oldid=184224207

The Issue

The issue is dead simple: I (Dario D.) am accusing the user "Wikidemo" of repeatedly deleting the "Criticisms" section of the article entitled Webby Awards. (link: http://en.wikipedia.org/Webby_Awards )

The section is well-cited, truthful and accurate, but this user (who edits this article a HUGE deal) insists on repeatedly deleting the section without presenting a valid reason why (just calls it "inappropriate" and that's it), then sends me messages accusing me of not following Misplaced Pages guidelines for doing the same thing he/she is doing: repeatedly reverting edits.

That's the complaint. This is an important section to NOT be deleting, especially with the Webby Awards about to take place, and very important information in it (notably scambusters.com accusation against them, which carries great impact, and should be known by all with great emphasis. In fact, it's a shame it has to be mentioned way down in the criticisms section).

Complaint against the complaint process

This complaint process is utter lunacy (aka rocket science, designed by wiki programmers, for wiki programmers). It took me over 20 minutes just to figure out how the heck to file a complaint, and I'm a software designer. There are like 5 layers of pages and an encyclopedia worth of reading to do before you actually get to this step where you can... you know... actually file a complaint. I suggest getting a crap-load more moderators who can deal with complaints, because Misplaced Pages is an extremely important resource for the world, and it needs to be about 5,000% easier to file a complaint... as I'm sure there are a motherload of important edit wars out there that aren't addressed because of this absurdly arcane process.

Comment from uninvolved party. I 100% agree with the above statement. The current "Dispute resolution" process is designed to allow as little actual dispute resolution as possible. The ordinary editor can not easily file a complaint, nor do they have the time to read the complicated procedures and policies, allowing administrators to unjustifiably rule over Misplaced Pages. Rhythmnation2004 (talk) 02:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Wikidemo

Obviously the case should be dismissed as a content dispute and for failure to follow procedure. Before filing the complainant never read the article talk page, where I try to explain why the edits are inappropriate for being unsourced, POV, original research, personal attacks, etc. Most of this is so obvious on the face it needs no explanation.

I am a little concerned that arming this user with better knowledge of dispute resolution procedures may not be the way to go. The edits are POV and reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages that this is some kind of place to air consumer complaints. The user admits, below, that he came to Misplaced Pages to warn people about the Webby Awards being a scam because, on reading a flyer, he searched the Internet and found derogatory material about the organization that is not reflected in the Wikipedi article. He says here that his point in editing the article is to warn "hordes of people" in advance of this year's awards that the organization is a scam.

The editor's behavior in going about this has been strange and contentious. For example the user makes accusations and personal attacks against me, both in edit summaries and as part of the article content (and now, on this page). When I call him on the personal attacks he makes a tit-for-tat accusation. He makes the bizarre connection that I must be a "member" of the Webbies (and some kind of paranoid claim in the article itself, probably made up, that my IP has been traced to a location near the Webby headquarters), based on the equally odd claim that I wrote most of the article.

Even allowing for common newbie mistakes, this is beyond normal. Please consider the possibility that we may not be dealing with a straight shooter here and that this person, whatever his motivations, has become behavior problem and not just a misguided content editor. To date he has not heeded my warnings or Misplaced Pages's rules on original research, sourcing, personal attacks, POV, etc. A third party has weighed in now, agreeing that this editor's material is inappropriate. I hope this is the end of it, but if the editor persists we may need to do something. I would normally take this to a forum like AN/I after all attempts at discussion and warning failed. If it comes to it, I'm a little confused how to proceed because I know ArbCom is unlikely to take the case yet I don't want to create a fork by bringing it to a new forum as long as it's here. Wikidemo (talk) 10:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Dario D.

Arbitrators, my plight is deathly simple: read the Criticisms section that Wikidemo has been deleting, and see if you yourselves find even one point in it invalid. Simply dismissing this as a content dispute essentially means that Wikidemo wins: he/she will simply continue deleting that Criticism section onwards for eternity, and the Webby Awards scam will march on. You can do your own research on it - ANYTHING... and if you find that my argument for keeping the Criticism section is invalid by even ONE WORD, then you can ban ME and my entire city for all I care.

My story is this: I receive a flier from the Webby Awards in the mail one day, do some online research, find all kinds of sources talking crap about them, and so I post a few of those criticisms on Misplaced Pages (and several criticisms were already there). Next thing I know, the ENTIRE SECTION is deleted. So I put it back. AGAIN it's deleted. And the rest is history... now I'm just trying to get Wikidemo to stop deleting that section. You'll notice that he/she has never stated a single valid reason anywhere why those criticisms are not valid for inclusion in the article. They are fairly-cited criticisms like any other, and if you don't think so, ban me to pixel hell. That's how confident I am.

• My motives for keeping the Criticisms section: Making sure people understand that many websites (such as scambusters.org) have complained that the Webby Awards are a Who's Who scam that requires between $100-$400 for inclusion in the contest. In other words, they are widely criticized for being unfair in their judging, because you have to pay to even have a chance at winning. Obviously, you would mention criticisms like that in a criticisms section.
• Wikidemo's motives for removing Criticisms section: I have no idea.

Clerk notes

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/6/0/0)

• Reject, content dispute. Kirill 00:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline, but we should provide some guidance to the filing party, who appears to be a bit uncertain as to how to deal with the dispute that has arisen, rather than just announce that we are not going to take the case. As indicated on the top of this page, arbitration is the last step of the dispute resolution process. It is generally reserved for prolonged and intractible disputes, involving alleged violation by users of our site policies rather than just a disagreement on what content should be included in the article—hence the complexity of the process of which you remark (though I would have no objection at all to simplifying the arbitration process so long as this could be done without compromising its fairness). In this case, other steps in dispute resolution such as requesting a third opinion, posting an article-content request for content, or if necessary seeking mediation will be more effective than a complicated arbitration case at resolving this dispute. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline, content dispute. --jpgordon 03:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• This is an obvious 'decline' as a simple content dispute. To the filing party who asks what to do next, I think you should first consider the possibility that what Wikidemo is saying is right. Please read carefully on how to write articles with neutral point of view. Sam Blacketer (talk) 11:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. Premature for the Committee to be involved. Likely the Community can deal with the situation. FloNight (talk) 15:06, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline (content dispute). -- FayssalF - 11:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Ehud Lesar

Initiated by Grandmaster (talk) at 07:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Grandmaster (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiating party)
• Ehud Lesar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Fedayee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• VartanM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Eupator (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Khoikhoi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Nishkid64 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Ehud Lesar, Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement/Archive11#User:Ehud_Lesar

Statement by Grandmaster

I realize that arbitrators are really tired of endless disputes at Armenia – Azerbaijan related area, and that recently a request for another Armenia – Azerbaijan case has been rejected. I was the one who opposed the new case, and I believe that it was a right decision. However this case should not be treated as another Armenia – Azerbaijan case, involving every user who contributes to that topic. This is a case about the block of a particular user and circumstances surrounding it. So it should be considered outside of general A-A framework and cover only the users involved in this particular situation.

This issue has started when User:Fedayee, User:Eupator and some others started a campaign of harassment of User:Ehud Lesar, accusing him of being a sock of User:AdilBaguirov, who was banned for 1 year by AA1. They were making accusations without any reliable evidence confirming that the 2 users were somehow related. Checkuser showed no relation between Ehud and Adil: However this did not stop the aforementioned users from making accusations and baiting Ehud. Just some examples:

Finally the sock allegations were discussed at WP:AE and rejected with the statement: No confirmation of sockpuppetry. At the same time Ehud was placed on 6 months rv parole like most of other users on the topic. Fedayee and his supporters were told to present their evidence for formal investigation to Misplaced Pages:Suspected sockpuppets. However, this never happened. I can assume that instead they sought other ways. On 9 January 2008 the admin User:Khoikhoi, who was absent from Misplaced Pages for a few months (since October 2007, to be precise), suddenly turned up and banned Ehud. I can only presume that this admin was approached off wiki and given certain information about Ehud. Otherwise it is hard to explain why a user who was absent from wikipedia for months would turn up with the single purpose of banning one user. I might be wrong, but this looks very strange. Ehud asked to be unblocked, and his request for unblock was granted by User:LaraLove. However Ehud was soon reblocked after the discussion at Lara’s page by User:Nishkid64, despite User:LaraLove refusing to support this block. Ehud contacted me soon after he was blocked and asked for help with this case, and I took the issue to WP:ANI. A lengthy discussion at WP:ANI gave no results. Ehud was willing to prove that he was a real person in real life and not a sock by various methods, including phone call, webcam chat, etc, but Nishkid64 and the group of users who supported him did not agree to any of his proposals. Nishkid64 asked for a scan of Ehud’s ID with all the info other than picture and name blacked out, but Ehud was reluctant to share any sensitive private info with admins who blocked him. He was willing to prove his identity by any means that would not violate his privacy, or share it with one of the top bureaucrats of wikipedia, who would guarantee his privacy. But even this sort of identification was not considered a sufficient prove by his accusers, who insisted that this user should remain blocked despite the lack of any prove that he was a sock. So we have a very strange situation when a user was blocked after allegations about him were rejected at WP:AE by an admin, who was away from wiki for many months, then unblocked and reblocked again. Clearly there was no consensus in the wiki community that this user was a sock, and there was no evidence to support the allegations of sockpuppetry, as cu returned negative results. While it’s never been proven that Ehud was a sock, Nishkid64 demands that Ehud needs to prove that he is not sock. I don’t understand what happened to presumption of innocence and “innocent until proven guilty” principle. The only basis for Ehud’s block was this collection of frivolous evidence complied by Fedayee, and which I addressed here. It was also addressed in much detail at WP:ANI thread, but did not result in any change of the attitude of the blocking admins. It is very strange that no attempt at any investigation has ever been made and there were no attempts at seeking consensus at WP:ANI or any other board before making such a block. So I would like to ask the arbitration committee to review all the circumstances surrounding this block, and take measures for verification of identity of Ehud, who is willing to cooperate. Also, it might be in the interest of the entire wiki community to establish some sort of a procedure for users who were blocked as result of sockpuppetry allegations to contest their block and prove their real life identity without violation of their privacy. I made inquires with many people, but it seems that no one is aware of any established procedure for such situations. Thank you very much.

In response to Thatcher. The problem is that all users representing either Azerbaijani or Armenian side are interested in the same topic and have the same POV, depending on what side of the story they represent. If users are to be banned for sharing the same views, then not many would remain. There should be some procedure for verification if the user is genuine or not. Otherwise innocent people will keep on getting banned just because they happen to share the same views or making edits that may remotely resemble those made by other users.

Additional comment

I agree with Atabek. The evidence presented by Fedayee, which resulted in Ehud’s block, is very frivolous. Atabek mentioned some points, but here’s more. Fedayee says in his evidence:

If we search on talkpages, we find that only Adil has ever called Sevan, Geycha.

But if one takes a look at Talk:Lake Sevan, he can see that the name of Geycha was used there since 2005, long before Adil joined Misplaced Pages. Moreover, if we check the history of the article about the lake, we’ll see that the one reverting to Adil’s version and sharing the same views with him about the historical names of the lake was none other than Khoikhoi, the blocking admin: Please see the edit summary in the diff. So it was not just Ehud sharing the same views with Adil on certain subjects. If people are blocked on the basis of such evidence, then we have serious problems here. I posted more counterevidence here: User:Grandmaster/Ehud

Response to Nishkid64

Nishkid64, you said that "it appears that Grandmaster and Atabek have now hinted that Ehud Lesar's real name is not "Ehud Lesar", as he had claimed many times before on-wiki and through e-mail". Please tell us where exactly did Ehud say that he contributed under his real name? That's what you have just been claiming in you previous post.

As for Geycha, I have already demonstrated that unlike what you say in your response to 5a, Adil was not "the first person on Misplaced Pages to make that point". See Talk:Lake Sevan. I understand that you only had good intentions, but I think the admins should not blindly trust any evidence presented to them, but do some investigation of their own.

Nishkid64, you said that "I asked Ehud Lesar to confirm that his real name was "Ehud Lesar". He never made any indication that Ehud Lesar was not in fact his real name". But he never told you that Ehud was his real name either, right? Then why did you say that Ehud claimed that he contributed under his real name "many times before on-wiki and through e-mail". Now it turns out that not only he did not claim so "many times", in fact, he did not claim so even once. I don't know if Ehud is his real name or not, but it might as well be a made up name. I'm not Grandmaster in real life too. People have a right to chose any names for themselves, as long as they don't violate wiki policies. But how does his wiki name prove that he is a sock, and what difference does it make?

It appears that you and Atabek were defending the name, "Ehud Lesar", but then later did a 180 and suggested that it wasn't his name.

That's not right. I was never defending the name, I was defending the user and was trying to bring to your attention that he was a real person in real life, regardless of whether he contributed under his real or made up name.

Fedayee

That Geycha thing is a total fabrication. The claim that only Adil and Ehud spelled the old name of the lake as Geycha is false and can be easily disproved. Adil joined Misplaced Pages on13 May 2006. However back on 18 February 2006 the admin User:Beland stated on the talk of Sevan:

I added the rendering "Geycha" because someone used it in the article Siunik. -- Beland 15:08, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

And the name of Geycha (spelled exactly like this) was added to the article about Siunik back in October 2004.

Ok, how come then that this spelling is exclusively Adil’s, if it was spelled that way long before he joined wiki, and that’s the way the name is spelled in Azerbaijani language? I find it strange that Nishkid64 blindly trusts whatever claims Fedayee makes without taking the time to check them.

Adil

With regard to Texas, that state is the same for Azerbaijanis as California is for Armenians. Texas has the biggest Azerbaijani community, because most of US oil companies are based in there and many Azerbaijanis work for them. So Adil surely is not the only Azerbaijani in the state with 20 million of population, plus Adil only occasionally visits that state, while Ehud is based there permanently. And Adil's appearance in Wikisource is not a coincidence either, I emailed him a couple of days ago and informed him about the Ehud's unfair block. He has a right to be aware of charges brought against him. If he chose to contribute in the meantime to another Wikimedia project, he has a right to do so. Of course, none of the above facts is a proof that Ehud is Adil's sock.

Statement by Nishkid64

I first saw Fedayee's evidence at WP:AE. He was convinced that Ehud Lesar was AdilBaguirov, an editor banned by ArbCom until August 2008. I evaluated the evidence, and sought the opinions of others. I also contacted Jayvdb (talk · contribs) on IRC and asked him for his thoughts. I don't remember what he said exactly, but I'm sure that he didn't give a clearcut opinion of the evidence. Based on the evidence, I was convinced that this user was a sockpuppet of Adil. I was a bit hesitant of the block, and I wanted to contact Khoikhoi (talk · contribs), an administrator who's quite knowledgeable of the Armenia-Azerbaijan debate, and seek his opinion about the evidence. I didn't get to contact Khoikhoi, but I saw that he echoed my thoughts and he blocked the user indefinitely. Per Dmcdevit's comments here, he had evaluated the evidence and decided to take administrative action. LaraLove (talk · contribs) unblocked the user on the basis that there was no evidence for sockpuppetry. I did not want to be accused of wheel warring, so I contacted her and asked her if she was okay with me reblocking the user. She didn't think there was any evidence for the block, and I should do what I believe is best. As a result, I reblocked Ehud. Subsequently, Grandmaster initiated an AN/I discussion. An agreement (I don't see how one could be reached in this situation; one side wants a block, the other wants an unblock) could not be reached.

A few points of clarification:

• Francis Tyers (talk · contribs) first suggested that Ehud was a sockpuppet of AdilBaguirov. Khoikhoi, Alex Bakharev (talk · contribs), Daniel Case (talk · contribs) (who reviewed the unblock) and I have all found the evidence of sockpuppetry quite damning and indefblock-worthy.
• The issue over identity confirmation was first brought up by Ehud Lesar in an e-mail he sent to me shortly after I re-blocked his account. Since I contested that he was indeed Adil Baguirov, a real-life Azeri energy lobbyist, I figured that an identity confirmation would prove his innocence.
• Grandmaster and Ehud Lesar proposed some methods of confirming Ehud's identity. These methods could easily be faked, so I asked for other ideas. I was then asked what I thought would provide definitive confirmation. I suggested scanning his passport with the sensitive details blanked. It was only a suggestion, and I said Ehud was free to refuse to participate in such an action. On Google Talk, Ehud stated that he would not provide such identity, but after some convincing, I informed him (LaraLove had previously mentioned this) that he could contact Cary Bass or someone else through WP:OFFICE.
• No admin "rejected" the allegations at WP:AE. Most of the discussion on hand took place before Fedayee created his user subpage filled with Ehud-AdilBaguirov evidence. Picaroon made a comment, stating he was a bit confused about the deal over Geycha (see the evidence for clarification). Jayvdb did not comment on the merits of the case, but it appears he did read it, as he asked for some point of clarification and said he would look into the matter on User talk:Fedayee/LesarBaguirov Evidence. Thatcher closed the AE discussion as "no confirmation of sockpuppetry", but he did place Ehud on revert parole. Judging from the timestamps of Thatcher's edits, I do not think he read the evidence, but I have no messaged Thatcher and asked him whether or not he actually got a chance to look over the material.
• In the latter half of the discussion, it appears that Grandmaster and Atabek have now hinted that Ehud Lesar's real name is not "Ehud Lesar", as he had claimed many times before on-wiki and through e-mail.

Reply to Atabek from Nishkid64

1) Again, CheckUser does not confirm everything. There have been hundreds of cases on Misplaced Pages where sockpuppeteers easily mask their IP, thus producing unfounded CheckUser results.

2) WP:PRIVACY is a proposed policy. It just advises users that they shouldn't post such material on Misplaced Pages. I told Ehud Lesar that he could reject my suggestion.

3) I asked him if he could prove that he was indeed "Ehud Lesar". He never indicated that he wasn't this user. Even when I told him about the passport bit, he never said that he wasn't actually "Ehud Lesar".

4) I don't see how WP:PRIVACY is involved here.

5a) Adil was the first person on Misplaced Pages to make that point. Ehud Lesar made that exact same point, and given how it's not some universal view, it looks quite suspicious.

5b) Settle that matter elsewhere. This case is solely about the block of Ehud Lesar.

6) I did not really pay much attention to the Jewish username bit. The location bit came after the block, and was never used in my initial argument.

Reply to Grandmaster from Nishkid64

See what I wrote in my reply to Atabek. I asked Ehud Lesar to confirm that his real name was "Ehud Lesar". He never made any indication that Ehud Lesar was not in fact his real name. Also, judging from the AN/I discussion, it was pretty much implied that Ehud Lesar was the user's real name. Also, judging from Atabek's comments, it appeared that he was hinting that "Ehud Lesar" was not the actually identity of user:Ehud Lesar.

Please, this is not about my choice of words. Regardless of what I said, it appears many people who read the AN/I post were under the impression that Ehud Lesar was the user's real name. You and Atabek spent some time arguing Fedayee's first point about the Jewish username. You said that there are a number of Azerbaijani Jews. Atabek's later comments indicate that Ehud Lesar is not the actual name. It appears that you and Atabek were defending the name, "Ehud Lesar", but then later did a 180 and suggested that it wasn't his name. What changed?

Statement by Thatcher

The funny thing about sockpuppets and checkuser is that whenever checkuser shows that two accounts are related, people complain that IPs are shared and the checkusers don't know what they're doing and you have to look at the contributions. When the contributions show strong similarities of point of view, approach, and interest in obscure topics, people complain that checkuser shows no connection and therefore the accounts can't be the same. Any thinking person with a bit of experience at editing Misplaced Pages and on the internet can come up with two or three ways of appearing to be in two different places at the same time (with or without the help of a confederate), thus "proving" that he is two different people. So I'm dubious about the value of having Adil and Ehud contact the Foundation with their private IDs. Until Mediawiki enables the clairvoyance extension allowing admins to see who is typing at the other end of the pipe and to know with certainty that that person is not acting on instructions of another, or sharing the account when no one is looking, then we have to go on similarities of style, point of view, and topic interest. I was not convinced of the identity of Ehud when a complaint was posted to WP:AE, and Fedayee's evidence page was not linked to the complaint. But I have no problem if another admin with more experience of this user has made a determination.

Statement by Eupator

I'll keep this brief as I don't think an arbitration case is necessary regarding this matter. If the current compiled evidence was produced earlier, even a checkuser case would have been rejected based on the obviousness that Ehud Laser is not a legitimate user. I'm more worried about Grandmaster's conduct in regards to all of this and gross assumptions of bad faith in regards to virtually everyone. Same with User:Atabek and his persistence of insisting with Grandmaster that Ehud Laser is a legitimate user and accompanied with countless assumptions of bad faith and provocative instances of turning this matter into essentially a battleground. To go as far as to imply that two administrators with a long history of neutrality and absolutely no axe to grind were somehow not genuinely involved is mind boggling. I also don't understand why Grandmaster did not add Atabek as a party to this case as Atabek has been involved in it just as much as Grandmaster has. Everything I wanted to say about Ehud Laser I have here:Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Ehud Lesar I find this to be a waste of time for everyone involved.

Statement by uninvolved User:Atabek

The accusation of User:Ehud Lesar being sock of User:AdilBaguirov has no basis, because:

1) It's not based on checkuser evidence;

2) Blocking administrator showed no interest in verifying the identity of the blocked user within the limitation of WP:PRIVACY. Nishkid64's request here for Ehud Lesar to produce a copy of his passport, especially given the lack of checkuser or any evidence produced by a non-conflicting party, is in violation of WP:PRIVACY.

3) Accusation by User:Nishkid64 that User:Ehud Lesar told him or posted somewhere about his real name being Ehud Lesar is not based on any evidence produced or presented so far.

4) Charges brought up by User:Fedayee and User:VartanM that User:Ehud Lesar is not really Jewish have no supporting evidence. Azerbaijani Jews are tightly integrated into Azerbaijani society, and many support the national point of view as shown by an independent source here . Moreover, accusing someone based on dislike of his account name being associated with a certain ethnicity is simply a violation of WP:PRIVACY and WP:HARASS.

5) User:Fedayee's evidence is frivolous:

• a) He claims "Atabek, unlike what you write, Zangezur and Geycha claim was in fact specific to Adil,", however, as evidence shows there are two independent sources , , which cannot be attributed as even being created by User:AdilBaguirov.

• b) He made an accusation at WP:ANI couple of days ago against me, claiming "given the possible relations between Atabek and Adil off-wiki", while when asked to produce evidence, his response was "You know I can not provide the evidence here so why are you bothering asking?"

6) Overall the argument that Ehud Lesar must be a sock of Adil, because he lives in Texas and has a Jewish username, is ridiculous and carries no basis whatsoever. There are a number of contributors, supporting the same POV as User:Artaxiad banned by ArbCom and caught with 34 checkuser-confirmed sock accounts so far, and residing in the same state of California . This does not establish a basis to accuse them all of sockpuppetry based on assumptions about POV.

Thanks. Atabek (talk) 18:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Response to User:Nishkid64

4) I posted WP:PRIVACY line, which renders your arguments about whether Ehud Lesar should or should not have his name as real username, as violation. Reread the policy: Misplaced Pages requires no personal information from anyone who wishes to edit it.

5a) Your claim:

• Adil was the first person on Misplaced Pages to make that point. Ehud Lesar made that exact same point, and given how it's not some universal view, it looks quite suspicious.

It may look suspicious that two contributors cite an external source of information, but it definitely does not establish basis for accusation of sockpuppetry or claims that Ehud is Adil. Nishkid64, from your sentence above, it's also clear that you have no evidence to prove that Ehud is Adil, but only trying to use any fact of POV link in edits of two people originating from one country to establish sockpuppetry. May as well state that you want to block all Azeri contributors on suspicions that their views mostly match those of Adil.

5b) It's an evidence of User:Fedayee making false accusation in Misplaced Pages and not being able to produce evidence for his claims. The case is awfully similar to User:Ehud Lesar case, with fabrication of such evidence. The purpose is single, to target contributors along national lines.

• Also as a kind reminder, pleas review this section of WP:NPA. Your statement:

• Since I contested that he was indeed Adil Baguirov, a real-life Azeri energy lobbyist, I figured that an identity confirmation would prove his innocence.

clearly violates, this line of WP:NPA, which is a fundamental Misplaced Pages policy:

• Attacking, harassing, or violating the privacy of any Wikipedian through the posting of external links is not permitted. Harassment in this context may include but is not limited to linking to offsite personal attacks, privacy violations, and/or threats of physical violence.

You haven't produced any evidence that Adil Baguirov is a "real life Azeri energy lobbyist" either. May be worth also reading for your supporters in this issue User:VartanM and User:Fedayee.

Response to User:Fedayee

Regarding your statement:

• Point 5b), Atabek is harassing me with that, I have made that remark once, Atabek brought it back again and again. I have replied to him that I can not post this here. He knows what happens when such information is posted here. But for this information, I have submitted it to one admin who may feel free to provide it to whomever he thinks it is appropriate.

The false claims and assumptions that you make in your communication with any administrator is your own business. However, your claim that I have off-wiki relation with another contributor is a violation of WP:HARASS, especially without any presentable evidence. So I demanded you to produce that evidence in the same medium where you made the accusation. And please, recall fundamental policies:

• Misplaced Pages:No Personal Attacks and Misplaced Pages:Harassment apply to any kind of attack or harassment in any context, so linking to external attacks, privacy violations and other content that harasses any individual should be avoided.

Unless, you produce the evidence or apologize for your false statement, I will pursue your statements further in WP:ANI as a clear violation of WP:HARASS.

Response to User:VartanM and User:Fedayee

The application of word genocide is of subjective matter. Obviously every person from Azerbaijan, including myself, considers Khojaly massacre to be an act of genocide, just like every Armenian considers Armenian Genocide to an act of genocide. So argument that Ehud is a sock of Adil because he calls Khojaly a genocide, holds no water.

Statement by Ehud Lesar

Clerk note: Because Ehud Lesar is currently blocked, I would be copying any statement made by him/her on the user talk page to this page, per my clerk note below.

In an email sent to me, Lesar said to link if the statement was too long. A cursory look shows that the formatting and length probably require the statement to be linked, hence that's what I've done.

Ehud Lesar's statement can be viewed here. Daniel (talk) 21:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Fedayee

The whole description of the situation by Grandmaster is full of half-truths. It is also time to decide whether or not AdilBaguirov should ever return to contribute and if it is not best to finally have an indefinite block on his account.

What information is missing here is that many users have already suspected Ehud Lesar months ago and this was also brought during the last arbitration case as arbitrators involved to the last case may remember. When Hetoum started making those accusations to Ehud Lesar, this was part of his reply: You're free to be either obsessed with or pretty much obviously impressed by him, but please stop dragging me into "being" someone I am not just NOT.

Francis Tyers was one of the members (and Admin when AdilBaguirov was not yet banned) who suspected Ehud and as soon as the beginning of July of last year. Then, no evidence was ever compiled which related both users yet practically everyone knew it was Adil. Everything points to him, starting from the day of his registration to his name. The pile of evidence provided against Ehud is not limited to my evidence page, others were provided elsewhere, including the evidence relating the name Lesar with Adil Baguirov. See here.

The problem lies with Grandmaster’s and Atabek’s attempts to defend AdilBaguirov’s sock and having him unbanned. Grandmaster during the last arbitration case has removed the tag of the sock of Adil from here claiming there was no evidence when there was and the evidence is compelling. See this section. Fourth paragraph about DrAlban, 19 June, DrAlban was a confirmed sock of Adil, after he is banned another sock appeared (the same exact day) Zhirtibay, which Grandmaster has claimed again that checkuser did not show the account to be Adil . The choice of names, the fact that they all appeared out of nowhere to support Atabek etc., just as Adil’s sock did.

It is very difficult to assume good faith with so much evidence of the contrary. Grandmaster is distorting my evidence and continues to do it here even after I have shown he is doing this. My quote on Geycha is selectively quoted to change its meaning and claims this is not accurate, while I have already answered to him that he distorted the meaning of my answer here by leaving out a very important piece in that quote. Grandmaster didn’t address that but has referred to how it is spelled in Azeri, (he now continues without correcting himself). I have obviously not replied to this because this is not entirely true, the ‘ç’ has no standardized pronunciation, while it could be spelled kch, tch, or simply ch, and the fact that in the modern Azeri Russianized version, there is a ‘y’ added even then, Grandmaster is not saying the truth. It is not spelled with an ‘e’ but with an ‘o.’ Khoikhoi agreeing with Adil’s version as reported by Grandmaster isn’t even true, as I have explained in the unaddressed reply here. The diff provided on Khoikhoi was a re-introduction of an edit made by Adil a day earlier. Both with an ‘o’, see how there he puts the ‘o’. Adil had it right, but then changed his version; Ehud will be maintaining that version to use it for the same reason used by Adil.

Atabek’s answer is also weird; he claims that it is not based on checkuser, when a checkuser wasn’t evidence according to him to prove Tengri was his sock. . Point 3 by Atabek is also ridiculous, Ehud Lesar was faking an identity, he added himself in the Jewish Wiki project, edited some Jewish related articles, and claimed to be of Jewish ancestor in his userpage. See Grandmaster’s remark here about him being Azerbaijani. Atabek claims that Jews are integrated in Azerbaijani society? And? It still does not address the issue that Ehud considers what happened in Algeria genocide when Turkish lobbyists are the ones who push the qualification the most as a counter-measure to the Armenian genocide. When searching for that term on Google, the second hit is from a journal to which Adil is a contributor. Also, it does not address the fact that Ehud considers what happened in Khojaly a genocide and denies the Armenian Genocide just like Adil. Grandmaster provides evidence which would tend to show that that position is not a fringe position. Check Vartan’s reply at 21:51 on that.

Point 5a) was addressed , , which was not answered by Atabek, he preferred changing the subject.

Point 5b), Atabek is harassing me with that, I have made that remark once, Atabek brought it back again and again. I have replied to him that I can not post this here. He knows what happens when such information is posted here. But for this information, I have submitted it to one admin who may feel free to provide it to whomever he thinks it is appropriate.

Point 6) does not make sense; the overall argument was never that… there are many other arguments which I didn’t even start to address adequately, like the fact that both Adil and Ehud support myths about the Armenian Diaspora which were put forward by Adil off-wiki for example during the lecture he gave on Misplaced Pages. Also, Atabek says nothing about the particularity of the name Lesar and why it is related with Adil. Atabek is also making a false analogy which was addressed on various occasions (Azeris living in Texas, Armenians living in California). Vartan already addressed this. There are half a million Armenians in California, at least half of the entire Armenian community in the US. In fact, there are more Armenians only in California than there are Azeris in the US. If an Armenian edits from the US, there is over ½ chance that that person is from California. This cannot be compared with the fact that Adil lives in Texas (with Washington) and that Ehud lives in Texas too.

Both Atabek and Grandmaster address the evidence individually, sure, when taken alone, each piece of evidence is not enough to show the link. But when taken as a whole then everything changes. - Fedayee (talk) 00:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Update

I was going to remain silent and not add anything new. But I could not keep silent when reading this after Vartan brought Adil’s contribution on Wikisource. This recent contribution of Adil on Wikisource after Ehud’s ban is one thing as evidence but this was needless given the obviousness that Ehud is Adil. But what strikes me as plainly provocative is this recent message by Adil which seems like personal vendetta. We, for his information, are not members of any interest group... if he wants to keep that lie about the Armenians users, he should substantiate his claim or remove that. And given his position in the Azeri community, he should be the last to write such stuff. Several members here have plenty of evidence of the contrary (involvement of interest groups). And who should we contact for the recent additions (on wikisource) by Adil Baguirov which comes from his website, when Adil Baguirov has a history of using totally fabricated sources and quotes? - Fedayee (talk) 06:19, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by VartanM

I will only address this for now before answering Grandmaster. Is Grandmaster really being honest here? Only in the administrators notice board he strongly suggested and repeated at least on three different occasions that: None of the above is a proof that Ehud is a sock and does not exist in real life. . Grandmaster is not saying that he is not Adil or that there is no proof that he is not Adil, but that Ehud exists in real life, he could not have ignored that everyone was actually speaking of the identity Ehud Lesar. He is replying to the evidences on the Lesar identity and will be repeating this again and again, he will say the same thing: This particular issue can be resolved very simply by verifying the existence of Ehud in real life. So far we have not received any clear instructions on how to do that. From what I see, no matter what Ehud does to prove his existence, it will be rejected by certain people, who are unwilling to accept that they made a mistake accusing this user. Those statements were made when evidences were presented on the name Lesar and that faked identity. It wasn’t until recently, and weird, as both Grandmaster and Atabek started to suggest (about the same time) that the Ehud identity itself was a screen name and comparing it to our usernames. And again also to a new position held by Ehud. How can a family name that is hardly notable other than one individual who was shown to have real life relation with Adil be compared with say Vartan, popular name among Armenians, or other famous Armenians used by Armenian users?

Reply to Grandmater

If you really want this case be accepted, don’t turn it into a circular discussion. You are repeating the same stuff addressed by Fedayee as if he is denying that. The point was that even Azeri users did not spell it that way. Atabek himself called it Gokcha, and then after this whole affair started calling it Goycha, but even then he didn’t spell it with an 'e', when it is with an 'o'. The evidence provided by Fedayee is in two parts. Geycha AND Used it to refer to a republic. On both accounts Ehud spelled the same way Adil did, and used it to refer to the republic. Of course this alone would not prove it is Adil. Those evidences x, y, z, etc. should obviously be treated as x AND y AND z... The Church of Kish article for instance, was created by a single purpose account and then defended by Adil’s confirmed socks, and then Ehud Lesar engaging in there. No matter what people say, this is an obscure article, the position hold by Ehud and the SPA who created the article was defended in a journal which Adil contributes to, a website build by Adil. Is this proof alone? No! And then, the Algerian Genocide thing, is it a proof alone? No! Is the claim of Khojali genocide? Alone proof? No! Is the claim that he hold the identical position held by the scholar (whose article were edited by confirmed socks of Adil) who mostly provided the Armenian genocide revisionist position in the West. Alone proof? No, only an evidence.

What about his position about the Diaspora, which was Adil’s fighting horse in off-wiki gatherings and lectures, alone proof that Ehud is Adil? No! Is the fact that he registered hours after everyone knew Adil will be banned, alone proof? What about the name Lesar? Is the fact that most if not all Lesar's in Texas are related to the David J. Lesar's family, who runs a company which associates itself with Adil, is an evidence that Ehud is Adil? Is the fact that he editwarred and reverted for other Azeri users when they run out of revert confirmation it is Adil? No! All of those alone are not confirmation when taken alone as Fedayee said. Neither the fact that Adil is known to forge identities with foreign names. Is the fact that Adil(splitting his time in Huston and Washington DC) and Ehud both live in Texas proof alone? No, it isn’t. What about the fact that Adil's sockpuppets stopped in more than one occasion when Ehud Lesar started contributing, and didn't reappear as long as Ehud Lesar was contributing. Is the fact that Ehud claimed that it is a positive thing to be impressed by Adil a confirmation it is Adil? No! Of course, each evidence taken alone can be rejected as not being sufficient proof. Is turning a banal article into an article about destructions by Armenians like this confirmation alone?. Or here. But then, even his interest on Jewish matters is so Adil of him. See here for example.

More could be added, everything points to him, the way he edited, his interests, when he registered, his personal theories, his sarcasm and even the username. The bulk of counter-evidence (which doesn’t even try to address some very important pieces) is based on the false belief that dismantling each piece without considering their interconnection and more importantly the bigger picture would be enough. It is not enough, or else, no proof of sockpuppetry can ever be provided, even if IP address was shared, only on the assumption that there is some possibility that two people could have posted with the same IP without being the same person.VartanM (talk) 19:07, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

More about Adil

Adil knows his Ehud account wont be unblocked tomorrow (never). He registered on 19 April 2007 on Wikisource and didn't start editing until 16 January 2008, few days after Ehud was blocked. Knowing Adil, I'll bet that the IP won't match with Ehud. VartanM (talk) 20:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

Given Ehud Lesar is currently blocked indefinitely, should he/she choose to make a statement at this stage, I (or another clerk) can copy it from his user talk page (which he can still edit) to here. Should this case be accepted, Ehud Lesar may be unblocked to take part, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee or community consensus. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 07:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/1/0/1)

• Comment: awaiting completion of Nishkid64's statement, and a statement from Ehud Lazar, before voting. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. Discretionary sanctions for the entire A-A area have now passed; I trust that the admins watching this area will be able to deal with this particular situation via that method, without the need for further involvement from our side. Kirill 16:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

SPOV and civility in fringe articles

Initiated by ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— at 05:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Antelan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Kww (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Anthon01 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Dreadstar (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Zenwhat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Martinphi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• jossi (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Littleolive oil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Fyslee (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Professor marginalia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Nealparr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Rracecarr (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Benjaminbruheim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Done. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:27, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

And many many more.

Statement by Martinphi

First: this is not a content dispute: we don't need any help determining content. The problem is 1. disruptive editing, edit warring and POV pushing (based on both conscious and unconscious subversion of WP policy) and 2. Incivility and poisoning of the atmosphere.

That said.........

We would like the ArbCom to consider the actions of a group of editors who say they have been trying to write articles from the Scientific POV rather than from NPOV. They even wish to invoke Ignore all rules to use original research to debunk pseudoscientific, religious, and paranormal claims. They want to give more space to mainstream science within an article on a fringe subject than to the subject itself. They are also extremely rude (I tried to work this one out but... ), and have poisoned the atmosphere in fringe areas of Misplaced Pages .

(well it's all garbage, but that's another point...;-) in this discussion, it is a "pseudoscientific statement" made in the movie. When dealing with anything related to science on any subject at Misplaced Pages, whether it be a movie, a biography, an article on alternative medicine or quackery, etc., scientific sources are perfectly appropriate for dealing with the scientific matter at hand, and WEIGHT would so dictate. If someone in an article about themselves here is quoted as making an obviously unscientific statement, it would be appropriate to quote a mainstream scientific source to prevent readers from being misled by the Misplaced Pages article. That's not OR, it's common sense. If it weren't common sense, IOW used to help fringe ideas violate WEIGHT, it would be another matter. If necessary, just invoke WP:IAR. -- Fyslee / talk 19:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

In pursuit of this goal (and the larger goal to simply disparage), they have created large and ongoing disruptions of many articles, such as What the Bleep Do We Know!?, Parapsychology, and others. They have also been extremely contemptuous of the "kooks," cranks, and "true believers" (etc.) who disagree with their positions in any way, or believe in the "balderdash" and "bullshit" of anything fringe, thus poisoning the wiki atmosphere. Some even believe non-SPOV users should be disenfranchised (see last two posts).

The goal of this group is always to tear down any chance that a fringe subject may naturally have to seem worthy .

Imagine the reverse case: if the SPOV group were less numerous, and other editors continually referred to them (never, of course, mentioning names), as kooks, and their beliefs by words such as garbage, twaddle and insanity includes a lot...edit summary here proselytizing edit summary Sheesh, I guess I should blow him?. And these are just a sample: there is a continual drizzle of such oblique (and sometimes personal) disparagment which comes down on the heads of anyone who displeases the SPOV editors.

If you think we are merely a bunch of fringe POV pushers, perhaps you'll take pleasure in seconding this response:

Yada yada yada. Nothing new to add to the usual special pleading then? Guy (Help!) 20:44, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Antelan

Since there is a normal process by which civility issues are dealt with, I would imagine that going through that process before coming here (if ultimately necessary) would be preferable to starting here. Antelan 05:20, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Benjaminbruheim

I can feel the pain, but I think this is rather the symptom rather than the problem. But the introduction of the problematic words "mainstream science" and "pseudoscience" has introduced a system where certain journals are regarded as "unreliable sources" and all the articles end up being the written from the mainstream science perspective. For non-obvious reasons this makes the content unfairly treated. For example a suspect that is notable within fringe science might be written from a perspective where there has been no serious inquiry. Thus we should allow a plurality of opinions where many mutually incompatible opinions are written, but where a subject is deemed highly unlikely by a respected field it should be mentioned. Opinions from scientists should be used with caution, unless their claims are easily verifiable. Additionally I feel some skeptical articles being used as sources can be regarded as fringe, compare the RS status of SCICOP vs Journal of Scientific Exploration. Both are controversial sources yet CSICOP is regarded as a trusted source. At the same time the best info on fringe subjects are in the primary sources. There are the other patent non-sense fringe subjects, but then the science and other research do the job itself. This is a huge complex and could need a better forum of debate, but it is not only a single policy. I suggest WP:SCIENCE, since we need a more rigid method applying the wide variation of science that exists anyway. Benjaminbruheim (talk) 05:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I think this discussion needs a new venue.

Can the ArbCom consider to suggest a common ground for a discussion on fringe or even WP:SCIENCE

Statement by User:Raymond arritt

Should arbcom undertake this case, I trust they will demand evidence for the extremely serious charge "they have organized large and ongoing disruptions of many articles." Should no evidence be found that the editing in question was deliberately organized and was intended merely to disrupt -- rather than to offer perspectives with which Martinphi happens to disagree -- arbcom may wish to consider sanctioning an editor who spuriously accuses others of such misconduct. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Fyslee

I don't see any paper trail that shows a proper sequence of dispute resolution. This looks more like an abuse of the RfArb system to harass users with whom one disagrees. If I have offended Martin, then he can certainly come to my talk page and we can talk about it like adults. Using RfArb is tantamount to shooting sparrows with a canon, that's how disruptive the RfArb process is. It should be reserved when all else fails, and not for taking revenge. Considering the source of this request and his extremely controversial history here, I suggest extreme caution lest this forum becomes a soapbox for further promotion of fringe POV.

Regarding the statement "...the Scientific POV rather than from NPOV." I don't believe that the scientific POV (SPOV) is always equal to NPOV, but that SPOV is often to be given WEIGHT in articles where the sources and subject matter so dictate. Scientific sources are much more likely to qualify as V & RS than fringe sources, which are often personal sites from various renegades, quacks, visionaries, and others who invariably possess "the truth", promote conspiracy theories and personal OR, encourage hatred against science and authorities, etc. Such sources often fail to qualify for obvious reasons. Unfortunately the promoters and protectors of fringe subjects often fail to realize this and object strongly when their sources are questioned or deleted because they simply fail to qualify, all according to policy here. They take the standard scientific "provide evidence for your claims" as an insult and incivility, when that happens to be standard practice among scientists and skeptics, and is also required here if we are to keep articles from becoming filled with unreliable sources. -- Fyslee / talk 06:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Viridae

Scietific point of view IS a neutral point of view, formed by consensus within the scientific community using a peer review system. (disclaimer - I am a scientist) Viridae 05:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by FeloniousMonk

This is simply a content dispute, and one that appears to be driven by more by Martinphi's failure to understand WP:NPOV ("where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented ... articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views") and the arbcom's former ruling on the topic in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience than by any other cause. FeloniousMonk (talk) 06:19, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Zenwhat

• This is a content dispute, but saying that by itself does not imply ArbCom is irrelevant if dispute-resolution is not possible.
• It is a particularly contentious content dispute that has existed across several pages. Policy does not explicitly state that articles should express the mainstream "scientific POV," however, a number of policies seem to imply it.
  • From WP:Notability, is distinct from "fame", "importance", or "popularity."
  • Again, from WP:Notability: "Notability requires objective evidence."
  • WP:Original research itself.
  • From WP:NPOV, "NPOV requires views to be represented without bias."

• From what I understand, Jimbo himself has stated that the word, "NPOV," may be misleading, because it is meant as the reliable, objective view without bias, not a false compromise or 'neutral' middle-ground between competing biases.

• What seems to be the issue is not the factual content of the articles, but the tone.
  • On the one hand, you have hard-nosed, atheistic skeptics (see James Randi), who would like every article on New Age-related issues to be tagged with Category:Pseudoscience and contain leads which explicitly state their rejection by the mainstream scientific community.
  • On the other hand, there are supporters of these fringe theories that wish to remove criticism entirely, even sourced criticism, and will simultaneously use unreliable sources while disputing clearly reliable ones.

I have stated that there a number of NPOV issues that need to be dealt with, but neither side is particularly in the right.

My suggestion is the following:

1. That ArbCom clarify WP:FRINGE and put forth a specific criterion for what constitutes a "pseudoscience," that editors can appeal to, in order to resolve disputes, or at least request that the community come up with such a definition. One possible source for such information may be Pseudoscience#Identifying pseudoscience (not to be used as a primary source of course, but through verifying the claims made there, by reliable sources).
2. That all criticism and apologetics for various pseudosciences be moved outside of article leads (such as in Astrology) and into specific sections, such as "Criticism" or "Scientific Reception," but that such articles fairly reflect the scientific consensus. There are some exceptions, of course, such as Homeopathy.

Now, on that last point, why do I make that distinction? The distinction is made because if a subject is frequently falsely presented as a science, such as Homeopathy or Ayurveda or What the Bleep Do We Know!?, then including criticism of pseudoscience in the lead makes sense. In the case of Astrology and Divination, 90% of the time its proponents put it forth as metaphysics, not science ("beyond" + "physics"). As an ex-Pagan myself, I know that a brief walk through the book store yields the fact that books on Astrology are often in sections entitled, "New Age," or "Metaphysical studies," or "Occult." Furthermore, it's existed before modern science, making it inappropriate for criticism of pseudoscience to remain in the lead.

Despite that, however, the actual information about criticism from scientists and skeptics should remain, according to the policy on preserving information.

Lastly, on the issue of civility, Misplaced Pages is not censored. Being caustic, cynical, sarcastic, and so on, is not by itself uncivil, though it may come across that way. This was noted a while back in my wikiquette alert regarding User:Sceptre. Furthermore, in the discussion over What the Bleep Do We Know!? (see the talk page) it's important to note that, at one point, someone arguing against the skeptics violated Godwin's law, making one-sided complaints about incivility somewhat spurious. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 07:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Baegis

I don't think I will make many friends by saying this, but perhaps this case should be considered and heard. For far too long, fringe pov pushers have been allowed to harrass and otherwise destroy articles while perfectly good editors have been driven away from the project. I have only been here for about 6 months and have already seen this occur enough times that it worries me. What needs to be established is a clear policy for dealing with editors who constantly disrupt and fail to read policy, except to distort it in order to have it meet their own needs. When will we, as a community, rise up and finally say that we have had enough and will stop giving disruptive editors chance after chance after chance? Maybe now is the time. Maybe this is the place. Baegis (talk) 06:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Nealparr

Current model of Misplaced Pages articles on topics with widespread popularity in culture, but which are either not supported by science, or are targets of rational skeptics:

(Believers -> Misplaced Pages article <- Skeptics)
                      |
                (Cleanup Crew)

Enough said. It's not coincidence that it looks like a mushroom cloud, and yes, both groups screw up the articles. For every pro push, there's a retaliatory push to slant it con. Each push is more excessive than the previous one. Even when an article is overall neutral, they'll fight over the lead, or a particular sentence, or even a word. And this is important: It's not about science vs. pseudoscience. In nearly all cases it is completely about believer vs. skeptic. The former wants the topic treated with credibility, and the latter wants the topic treated without credibility, whether science is involved or not. The ones I feel sorry for are the cleanup crew. They're always accused of being on the left or right of the top tier, when they're just trying to fix the damn article to look like an encyclopedia. It's a crazy, hostile work involvement. In any case, I'm on wikibreak, so I can be taken off the list of involved parties. --Nealparr 08:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 16:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree. ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 20:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree. The classic example of so-called skeptics deviating from science is Penn and Teller dismissing global warming. --Jim Butler 01:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Rracecarr

The diff Martin posted is my edit. Supposedly it is proof that I (we?) are "extremely rude". However I did not say or imply anything about any editors in the post. The best guess I can make is that referring to people who believe that dead people speak through radio static as "delusional crazies" is the rude part. I suppose Martin actually believes this, and so took it as a personal affront. I had no idea he believed it. I did not mean to offend. On the other hand, Martin was quite rude to me directly. Rracecarr (talk) 07:57, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Jim62sch

So far as I can see, this is simply a content dispute, and the "evidence" is hardly compelling. •Jim62sch• 11:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by ScienceApologist

It seems to me that the current method of choice for people hoping to impose accommodation of fringe and pseudoscientific beliefs on Misplaced Pages is to rigorously focus on conduct rules as a way of eliminating those who would resist this agenda. Unforunately, we have taken notice and are even now taking steps to censor ourselves so that nothing we say can be construed as personal attacks or lacking civility. Hopefully, within a few months, the people fighting undue accommodation of the fringe will be polite to a fault and then all that will be left is to impose their collective editorial will on the relevant articles. ScienceApologist (talk) 12:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

Pseudoscience and fringe science fans are engaged in relentless POV-pushing. They are the canonical soup-spitters. And yes, the result of their absolutely never giving up however often they are rebuffed, however often articles are wrestled from the appalling excesses of fringegruft and returned to NPOV, yes, that is incredibly vexing.

Their relentless and maddening querulousness is a pressing problem, causing endless wasted effort while we debate fatuous issues like whether we should use the conclusions of a Government report or perhaps instead use a cherry-picked paragraph from the middle of the report which is much more supportive of the tiny number of people who are actively pursuing research in a field that the rest of the scientific establishment either ignores or treats with scorn. Yup, that's a titanic waste of effort, and sometimes people are abrupt as a result.

Please do ban the whole bloody lot of them, I've had a gutfull. Guy (Help!) 12:51, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Arion

I would like to state that the hostility and ganging up that is inflicted upon editors who insist upon NPOV academic writing standards is out of control. There is no excuse for it. That includes this frequent invoking of "scientific" POV as the excuse for attacking the intelligence and integrity of other editors, and for excusing bullying tactics to enforce deletions of article content they disagree with (as opposed to discussing to reach consensus). Attempts to engage in serious discussions on improving an article are often responded to with accusations that an editor is "POV pushing" and advocating "pseudoscience". Discussions on the talk pages by these "SPOV" advocates often include rude and sarcastic juvenile level humor that is mocking and derisive. Everyone has seen this repeated innumerable times. The hostile atmosphere here at Misplaced Pages must change, and NPOV must be upheld for what everyone else in the world understands it to be. Arion 3x3 (talk) 13:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Kww

First, I am hardly a member of some group with a determined agenda to deal with fringe articles. The primary fringe article I have been dealing with is What the Bleep Do We Know, which has been a very contentious article for a number of months, primarily because of a group of editors that does not wish to apply WP:FRINGE to the article. WP:FRINGE requires that ideas that have been rejected, are widely considered to be absurd or pseudoscientific, only of historical interest, or primarily the realm of science fiction, should be documented as such, using reliable sources. Certainly, the extensions to quantum mechanics promulgated in the movie constitute such things, the very reason that we have reliable sources using words like tosh and balderdash to describe it. Martinphi and others believe NPOV to require us to be nicer to the movie than our reliable sources are, and to give credence to suspect organizations like the Institute of Noetic sciences. No. This is an encyclopedia, and, on article about science and on movies that discuss science, the viewpoint of mainstream science is the neutral point of view.Kww (talk) 13:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Filll

This mainly looks like a content dispute to me, with some minor incivility problems.

However, one of the reasons that Misplaced Pages is having a difficult time recruiting and retaining subject matter experts from Academia and the sciences is the endless pandering to WP:FRINGE elements, and somehow giving these people who push these extreme antiscience and mystical views 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 50th, 1003rd chances to disrupt the writing of a scholarly encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is viewed as free webspace to promote the most extreme crank theories. If they are unable to do this unchallenged they feel that somehow their rights are being violated.

After some observation, I have noticed that almost every single one does not understand what NPOV is, or the fact that NPOV does not mean an uncritical point of view or a sympathetic point of view. If a topic purports to be a scientific topic, like polywater or cold fusion, the rules of NPOV of course state that material in Misplaced Pages should be in proportion and in accord with the prominence with the views in the relevant field. However, I have seen that this prominence clause is almost always ignored in every pseudoscience article, every quack medicine article, every article about creationism, every article about the paranormal, by the proponents of these unproven and unscientific views for which there is absolutely zero evidence.

Of course, these topics should be clearly described. But this does not mean that the other side, the scientific view, should not be presented clearly, and prominently. Misplaced Pages is not a platform to unquestioningly broadcast the merits of the latest psychic surgery technique.

Invariably the promoters of WP:FRINGE material misinterpret WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE and other policies and create discord, leading to the examples in the original RfAr above. If Arbcomm decides to consider this, I would respectfully suggest that they consider how to make the point that the NPOV is quite close to the scientific POV in many of these FRINGE topics, and maybe suggest ways in which better guidelines can be created for how to handle this endless series of disputes. Unfortunately, the present set of policies is not working well, leading to disputes, and many editors becoming discouraged and just leaving, leading to a lot of bad material or lost material in Misplaced Pages.--Filll (talk) 14:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Carcharoth

Just a brief statement to attempt to correct some misunderstandings of WP:NPOV being made here. Statements like "the viewpoint of mainstream science is the neutral point of view" are highly misleading. The correct statement is "the viewpoint of mainstream science is the mainstream point of view". Neutral point of view is about applying due weight to different viewpoints, to create a balanced article. It is not about deciding which view is "neutral" (sometimes misinterpreted as the 'correct' POV), but deciding which views are mainstream (having said that, it is true that 'neutral' is increasingly used as a term of art on Misplaced Pages with a meaning distinct from the normal meaning - which is, as always, unhelpful for people who don't realise this). Articles editors should document the opinions of others on which view is 'correct', but that has little to do with 'neutral point of view'. Maybe it is time to rename NPOV if this common misunderstanding is gaining ground again? Carcharoth (talk) 15:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Responding to MastCell, who quoted this: "Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work." - the key here is whether articles such as What the Bleep Do We Know!? count as scientific topics. There is a good case to be made that this is, and should be, an article about the film/documentary, the making of it, the people who made it, the content, and the reaction to it. The article should not be turned into a battleground over the topics being discussed in the film. Instead, it should carefully link to our articles on those topics, and those are the scientific topics that the ArbCom ruling was undoubtedly talking about. Carcharoth (talk) 11:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by JoshuaZ

I'm actually surprised I'm not listed as an involved party; as far as I can tell, the list above is essentially a shotgun of almost every editor involved with MartinPhi on a semi-regular basis. I suppose MartinPhi didn't list ScienceApologist because ScienceApologist got driven off in part by MartinPhi's antics yet again. The bottom line is that per the undue weight clause in NPOV, NPOV is not precisely SPOV but they are close for most topics related to science, especially fringe science topics. Some editors see this distinction as being worthy of note (such as myself) others such as Viridae see the distinction as so small as to not merit distinction. Where exactly that distinction lies and how much weight to give to fringe or pseudoscience topics are complicated issues that need to be decided by consensus and often is. MartinPhi to be blunt is unhappy that the consensus interpretation on Wikipidea consistently does not favor given large weight to the many non-standard ideas of which he is a proponent. There doesn't seem to be anything really ArbCom worthy here at all. JoshuaZ (talk) 15:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Rocksanddirt

This is mostly a content dispute with both some tenditious editing and some incivility thrown in to make it unpleasant. My take is that the focus on labels (pseudoscience) and the focus on limiting critical or mainstream views in "fringe" articles is the main content under discussion. We don't attract academics, because we don't allow original research. We attract scientists of various stripes because there is a lot out there, without the original research that academics want to write. We spend to much time on the reliablility of sources, rather than explaining the reliability of a reference in an article and letting the reader make up his or her own mind. I don't think this is a dispute that arbcomm can help with right now, other than to remind folks to play nice, and read what others have written rather than talk past each other. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Dlabtot

I have spent some time at What the Bleep Do We Know!? attempting to broker compromise and cool passions, so I was surprised I was not listed as an involved editor. Anyway, absent a sincere desire to reach WP:CONSENSUS on the part of editors, and in the face of outright contempt of WP:CIVIL, Misplaced Pages doesn't work. There does exist a persistent pattern of incivility and edit-warring at these articles; the problem is essentially one of conduct, not content; if ArbCom declines the case now, it's just delaying the inevitable. Eventually, you'll have to deal with it. Dlabtot (talk) 17:08, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Levine2112

It's a bit unsettling how much people differ in their interpretations of NPOV. Overall, I come closest to agreeing with the NealParr, who made the chart which resembled a mushroom cloud. You have extremists on both sides. However, where I agree with NealParr that on one side of the cloud you have the "True Believers", on the other side of the cloud, perhaps NealParr should have put the "Pseudoskeptics" instead of the "Skeptics". I think the true skeptics - the real critical thinkers - constitute part of the "clean up crew" (along with the "People who don't give a damn either way"). :-)

Some of us are too quick to label others "True Believers", but then balk when someone calls us a "True Dis-believer". A true skeptic should be open to all possibilities, no matter how unreal or magical it seems (the more unbelievable it seems, the more evidence which is required to convince the true skeptic). Science - true science - is not an exact science. In general, there aren't many theories which are immutable scientific laws. A lot of times, I see an editor dismissing something as pseudoscience when it is actually very much a true science (or at least truly scientific), just with a theory that is antithetical to the science this editor holds dear. A person not willing to consider these alternative scientific theory is by definition a "Pseudoskeptic".

"Pseudoscience" and "Fringe science" have a true definition, however, I've seen these definitions skewed and abused in the name of pushing a POV. The threshold and treatment of pseudoscience which we should all abide in here at Misplaced Pages can be found at WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience. In general, don't characterize something as pseudoscience if it is merely a "questionable science" or an "alternative theoretical formulation".

NPOV is not SPOV. NPOV is a balance of opinions based on due weight of the sources. Misplaced Pages is not a scientific journal, but a collection of knowledge - information which can be cited to a reliable source.

Finally, just to be clear where I am coming from, please know that I only recently got involved at the What the Bleep Do We Know? article, and only in the capacity to try and reach some accord and consensus. I have tried to set up an informal survey as part of dispute resolution, and though it was generally well-received, I was perturbed (though not surprised) that an editor supposedly pushing for NPOV vandalized my attempts, calling them "pointless" among making other uncivil gestures. For my part, I rather enjoyed the film, What the Bleep. My sense of wonderment was thoroughly entertained. However, I came away believing very little (if any) of the theories presented in the film. Despite my disbelief of the theories presented, however, I am willing to put in the effort to make sure that the film's Misplaced Pages article is not overrun by criticism (no matter how much I agree with the critics). Certainly, much of the film's notability comes from the scientific criticism, but this in not the only side to it, nor is the praise/criticism of the film the only reason why it is notable.

I say all this because editors have called me a true believer in the pseudoscience or a fringe POV pusher. I am not either of those things. I am a true believer in Misplaced Pages and a pusher of following its guidelines and policies. -- Levine2112 19:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment by PeterStJohn

The difficulty, IMO, is that the pattern of abuse is diffuse, and that no individual diff can be unambiguously construed as violation of any explicit policy, though the aggregrate effect does violate the spirit. I've tried to enunciate this at my RfC regarding Ronz, which is related to this RfA (starting as it did with the Quackwatch article). Pete St.John (talk) 19:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Littleolive Oil

In my mind, fundamental to this discussion and at the root of the controversy on this article is that this, an encyclopedia, is above all else a repository for knowledge rather than a platform for defining some perceived truth. Fundamental to an understanding of controversy in the ‘What the Bleep’ article is that once again this is an encyclopedic article, about a movie, only inside of which, can the movie’s content exist. Issues of concern include:

• Suggestions and editing that indicate that Science is the main focus of the article, rather than the movie.
• Editors engage in language and tone that lack civility. This not only makes personal discussion harder, but also creates a toxic atmosphere for the entire talk pages, in part, because it can be relentless.
• Editors do not assume good faith but insist that edits are made for POV purposes, when in fact most editors supporting neutrality have never even voiced an opinion about the movie. Most editors have agreed to use the controversial word (controversial in this article, that is), pseudoscience, in the body of the article. Some consider that having the word in the lead, is inappropriate in terms of writing a lead, because the general public does not necessarily understand the word, so possibly needs further explanation more suitable in the body of the article. Yet on several occasions some have agreed to leave pseudoscience in the lead anyway, just to move on with establishing a lead section. However, repeatedly, these advances are squashed.

All of these problems should be surmountable, and editors on both sides have contributed enormously to attempting to find solutions. In repeated instances at the point when it looks as if a solution is possible, the discussion is abruptly turned again to questions about Science, and the whole discussion must move into another highly repetitious cycle. I could allude to what I think the problem is, but I might as well be more forthright than that. Pseudoscience supporters may see this as a place to make a stand for the truth about how they see science and fringe science. I can’t understand though, why, even when there seems to be progress made towards consensus efforts are still made to “stonewall”. My efforts and concerns for this article have nothing to do with the article itself; although I saw the movie I can barely remember it. I am more concerned with a misunderstanding of what OR is, and with hints I see in this discussion of a desire to move the kind of argument, for inclusion of material, that is OR, into mainstream Misplaced Pages. If that begins to happen, blurring and erosion will follow, and the back of Misplaced Pages as an encyclopedia will be broken.

As I check the discussion today, some progress is being made.

I want to mention that a reference made by Zenwhat to Godwin’s Law references me and not any other editors. I used the reference Misplaced Pages itself makes to OR and Hitler, and it was construed as a violation. (olive (talk) 20:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC))

Statement by MastCell

The proposed scope of this case seems extremely broad, and the allegations made, of organized large-scale disruption, are not particularly well-supported by the diffs provided. I don't see how ArbCom can adjudicate such a nebulously defined user-conduct problem. As to the role of SPOV, ArbCom has already provided their gloss on the topic:

Serious and respected encyclopedias and reference works are generally expected to provide overviews of scientific topics that are in line with respected scientific thought. Misplaced Pages aspires to be such a respected work.

Unless the current Committee wishes to amend that nicely-written finding, I don't see the makings of a case here. MastCell 22:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Jim Butler

I don't see anything here that isn't already covered by WP:TPG and the material at WP:NPOVFAQ#Pseudoscience (taken from the earlier Arbcom decision that MastCell just cited).

And WP:RS:

"Claims of consensus must be sourced. The claim that all or most scientists, scholars, or ministers hold a certain view requires a reliable source. Without it, opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources."

That nails it from all sides. If everyone heeded that, and pigs could fly, everything would be cool. --Jim Butler 03:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment Agree- this of course being exactly why it is not a content dispute, but a matter of user behavior and POV pushing! ——Martin ☎ Ψ Φ—— 05:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment Agree, also - I've seen pages where the introduction concludes with something along the lines of "Mainstream consensus is that this is a big steaming load" followed either by no citation or a citation to somebody with little or no scientific background, when in fact the truth is that no mainstream research has been carried out. This is particularly irksome when the topic is a popular culture topic such as an urban myth when there is no science involved at all. In which case the addition of said comment is pejoratives in itself because it is intending to discredit the topic. - perfectblue (talk) 20:47, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

If there is community disagreement about what an adequate source for "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community" is, then we do have to address that somehow, perhaps first by RfC or WP:RSN. That is pretty basic stuff. (n.b. teh James Randi is not such a source. No individual scientist is. Position statements from mainstream scientific bodies are, cf. Scientific opinion on climate change.

That said, I think that fringe topics that don't attract such mainsteam commentary may be balanced by statements from notable skeptics; however, those statements should be cited as being the views of the authors, and not more than that.

(Also, if I opine that foo is garbage, I am not attacking you even if you love foo.) :-) --Jim Butler 07:36, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• I am considering re-stating my statement above to say there is a foo fight going on at Misplaced Pages : ) --Nealparr 08:59, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Jim Butler, no one has stated my position on the state of things better than you have just done. Thanks for the true clarity. -- Levine2112 09:17, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by PerfectBlue

It has been determined by two separate Arbcoms that in order to for an article to have a neutral point of view it must accommodate all noteworthy perspective. * *. This includes perspectives that fall out of line with the scientific mainstream. Yet there remain parties who insist, for all intensive purposes, that the N in NPOV should stand for normal, not neutral, and that NPOV means MPOV or mainstream point of view. This is of great concern to me because it is not merely a content dispute, it is users removing evidence that debate exists or that people disagree with the mainstream and then saying that it is Misplaced Pages policy to do so.

As per Jim Butler (see above), it also concerns me that said users are claiming that there is a scientific consensus when in fact what we often have are individuals expressing their own personal opinions in areas where there is either no mainstream scientific consensus because there has not been any reliable mainstream research from which to draw a consensus. Often the individuals quoted are people such as James Randi and the editor of Skeptic's dictionary who are not scientists and are not in official positions in which it can be claimed that they speak for the wider scientific community.

There have been two arbcoms as it is and both have reached the exact same conclusion. Isn't it time the results of these arbcoms were translated into something more solid? - perfectblue (talk) 13:25, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Stephen B. Streater

The point of science is that it is what is left after verification and neutrality have been applied.

Things which aren't covered by science are either false, not provable, or haven't been tested because they are too vague or unimportant. While there is a vast number of ideas which are interesting and would be quite entertaining if true, the laws of the universe appear to be pretty consistent, and science is grinding them out a bit at a time. In conclusion, there is no symmetry between the scientific mainstream (which acknowledges it only has an approximation of Truth) and ideas which contradict both this and each other. While some of these ideas may turn out to have merit, Misplaced Pages's job is to document as fact only what is known and verifiable. People who attempt to do the opposite are not helping the project. Stephen B Streater (talk) 19:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/4/0/0)

• Decline. All editors in this area should be mindful of our basic policies, including civility, the avoidance of personal attacks, and the maintenance of a neutral point of view (including avoiding undue weight problems), as well as the principles enunciated by the arbitrators in prior cases. In talkpage discussions on articles like the ones at issue here, contributors should think twice before hitting "send" on a post discussing another editor, as opposed to discussing article content itself. I know that some of you find each other exasperating, but this tracks disagreements in the real world, and compliance with policies and standards by all sides should reduce interpersonal disputes. However, I see no specific dispute calling for a new arbitration case at this time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:41, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. Do not see anything specific in our purview for the Committee to review or settle. FloNight (talk) 21:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. The essential point of this case appears to be an attempt to negate WP:FRINGE by other means. Even if inclined to support that, I would think it an inappropriate content and policy ruling for an arbitrator. I am not convinced that this committee would assist writing a high quality encyclopaedia by restricting editing in this proposed case. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:49, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
• Declne. --jpgordon 03:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Austrian economics

Initiated by Zenwhat (talk) at 15:11, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Zenwhat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Gregalton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Coccyx Bloccyx (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Brusegadi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• East718 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Childhoodsend (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• AuburnPilot (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Skomorokh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Big Brother 1984 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 68.187.244.20 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Sarsaparilla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Karmaisking (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

(Still in the process of notifying them.) Zenwhat (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Request noted. Skomorokh 15:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

All parties have been notified. Just in the process of posting diffs here to confirm it. Zenwhat (talk) 16:01, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

The request involves a block, substantial edit-warring (across several pages -- not merely those discussed in this basic summary), a rejected page-protect, and wheel-warring. This claim is demonstratably false. Coccyx isn't an admin and the appropriate block log is here and no wheel-warring appears to have been attempted. A mistake on my part, apologies. Zenwhat (talk) 16:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

All parties have been notified.

Zenwhat (talk) 19:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by User:Zenwhat

It has been noted before that trolls are sometimes capable of winning successful edit-wars through sockpuppetry and having admins which support them block editors for intellectual reasons. This case appears to be such an example.

In this case, at my request (and anyone is free to reject my request) I would like the arbitrators to make the following assumptions about policy to be made explicit:

• That there be roughly no assumptions be made at all in the case of evaluating my statements
• No personal attacks against me or the accused (I'm saying this to be explicit -- not for admins, but for non-admins involved)
• Invocations of past offenses are potential signs of bad faith, but not proof of guilt
• The burden of proof rest with me to prove my case
• That Assume good faith applies especially upon the accused because of the presumption of innocence
• That, despite the current wording of Misplaced Pages policy, it be firmly recognized that User:AuburnPilot and others accused have an individual inalienable right to edit Misplaced Pages because of its core policy: A free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Per Misplaced Pages is not a democracy, this freedom may not be arbitrarily taken away by the majority.

It is not my intent to abuse wikipedian bureaucracy to remove editors I don't like. With that said, the evidence surrounding this case may be found here: User:Zenwhat/Evidence

I have no specific requests at this time, but would like the community and ArbCom itself to decide how this matter ought to be handled. Because of the likelihood that it will come to light and an "attempt to vanish" before putting forth an ArbCom proposal would seem deceptive, I now disclose: User:Nathyn is my previous account, I did likely make some contentious, silly edits, including vandalism when I was far younger. However, overall, my edits were constructive Actually, a quick review of my contributions shows that all of my contributions under my previous account were good. It appears I only vandalized a few times while logged out, with no actual proof of it, and my claims about past behavior are unverifiable, and thus put forth strictly on a voluntary basis Zenwhat (talk) 16:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC), I have never engaged in sockpuppetry.

I have included User:Sarsaparilla in this case, because this overall problem -- and the possibility of her being the sockpuppet of one of the above users, see here. Karmaisking has been included because he is a well-known sockpuppet, so it's certainly acceptable that he be included in this investigation.

Statement by User:AuburnPilot

I'm not sure why I'm named as an involved party here, as my only involvement has been to block Zenwhat for edit warring and a clear cut violation of the three revert rule on the Austrian School article (diffs: ). Zenwhat was warned by several editors, including myself, before he reverted the 5th time and received a standard 24 hour block. My involvement is negligible, and I have no intentions of joining an arbitration case related to a single 3RR block. I would, however, encourage Zenwhat to familiarize himself with policy; especially WP:CIVIL, WP:3RR, and WP:NPOV. - auburnpilot talk 15:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, I'm also not sure why Zenwhat names me specifically in his claim that everyone has a right to edit Misplaced Pages, but I firmly disagree with that assessment. Nobody has a right to edit Misplaced Pages; it is a privilege that can be revoked at anytime. - auburnpilot talk 15:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by east718

I am uninvolved aside from a declined protection request and this alert. Mountain. Molehill. east.718 at 16:07, January 13, 2008

East718, I don't have much to say in your case other than that your page-protect was clearly unjustified, when I asked you to reconsider your position you made statements that contradicted policy word-for-word. When I pointed this out, you were rude and told me to go away.

In the case of Auburn, he\she is blatantly a POV-pusher. How exactly a WP:SPA can get admin privileges -- I am absolutely curious. The list of names above is the list of people "relevant" to this case -- that doesn't necessarily only include people that directly edited such articles. This case is specifically about Austrian economics, but it is also more generally about the vandalism on Austrian economics, which is why I also invoked User:Sarsaparilla in the original discussion, though she herself has not edited Austrian economics. Zenwhat (talk) 16:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Coccyx Bloccyx

Uhh, can someone please explain how and why I'm a party to this case? I can see that is is going to be rejected, but I'd like to know all the same. Thanks. Coccyx Bloccyx (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/5/0/0)

• Decline. Nothing here approaching the need for an arbitration case, which is the last step in the dispute resolution process. There is no evidence of any attempts at even talkpage discussion of the content issues raised. In addition, portions of the request for arbitration are not comprehensible. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. No need for a case is evident. The Community can handle any issues that need to be addressed. FloNight (talk) 22:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline per both of my colleagues above. Can I suggest that Zenwhat's essay on Wikiliberalism may be more appropriate for a user subpage than in project space? Sam Blacketer (talk) 12:07, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline. --jpgordon 16:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject per Flo. James F. (talk) 20:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Asian fetish

Initiated by user:Tkguy at 08:28, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Involved parties

• Tkguy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Crotalus horridus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Cool Hand Luke (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Saranghae honey (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Crotalus horridus diff Cool Hand Luke diff Saranghae honey diff

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

• Due to the fact that this personal attack involved links to an Asian forum that I've participate in, I felt the need to protect my identity and my postings on the forum from public scrutiny. I decided against RFC not only because it attracts too much public attention but also because the last time this was done on this article diff this brought User:Cool Hand Luke, one of the involved parties, to the article. So around 1/4/2008 I tried to contact an admin I could trust. So I used the wikipedia email feature and emailed User:Neil. I didn't receive a response so I left Neil a note on his talk page that I sent an email. I still haven't receive a response.
• I then emailed user:East718 and left a note on his talk page.user:East718 at first claim that I wanted him to get involved with the dispute on Asian fetish. I wrote back that I was asking for help with regards to personal attacks on the Asian fetish talk page. I then stated that I would submit and arbitration request since none of the admin wanted to help me. He then replied that he didn't have the time to help me and that he was sorry and offered to refer somebody else.
• I emailed user:Royalguard11 on 1/5/2008 and left a note on his talk page. He replied back that since he was the protecting admin (the page is currently locked by him due to edit waring) he can't get involved in debates. I pointed out that I was not asking him to get involved and that I needed help with personal attacks. He then wrote back that he had trouble finding the personal attack links in my email. I replied that the links was in my first email to him. Apparently his response was put on the Asian fetish talk page and he acknowledges the personal attack but indicates that I am causing the problem for threatening to open an arbitration.
• Posted on the Asian fetish talk page that I would submit an arbitration request if the Personal attacks were not removed and a apology was not made.
• Posted a message on user:Crotalus horridus's talk page for him to remove his personal attack on me and that I would start an arbitration process if it was not done so.
  • user:Crotalus horridus deleted my entry on his talk page.
• Posted a message on user:Cool Hand Luke's talk page for him to remove his personal attack on me and that I would start an arbitration process if it was not done so.
  • user:Cool Hand Luke, an admin, didn't delete the comments, instead marked it. This is similiar to his actions when I was previously attacked by user:Kintetsubuffalo by being called a "pedantic little creep". I called him out on this personal attack but then user:Cool Hand Luke rather than deleting this comment, he marked the comment and labeled it "Incivility, apparently from both sides. Comment on the content, not the contributers". I didn't respond to the personal attacks on Asian fetish that is the focus of this WP:RFAR, because I knew there would be a high risk of being labeled "uncivil".
• Posted a message on user:Saranghae honey's talk page for him or her to remove his or her personal attack on me and that I would start an arbitration process if it was not done so.
• I deleted the personal attacks off the talk:Asian fetish page diff. Tkguy (talk) 08:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Tkguy

I was personally attacked and stalked by editors on Asian fetish. I hope that the arbitration board will punish these people and roll back their comments on talk:Asian fetish. The Asian fetish page is under protection due to edit warring. The involved party here intend to add significant changes as inferred below, without obtaining consensus diff. I would like the page to remain protected until after this arbitration has been completed.

Recently the seemingly perpetual edit waring took a very negative turn on this article. Rather than researching Asian fetish, user:Crotalus horridus chosed to research me with the passion of a stalker. Soon afterwards user:Cool Hand Luke and user:Saranghae honey did the same. Here user:Crotalus horridus posted on the talk:Asian fetish, directions on how to "research" me diff and discovered that I posted to an asian forum. He then proceeded to create a section on the talk:Asian fetish titled "==More about Tkguy==" and poplated it with links to some of the posts I've made 1st & 2nd 3rd. Of course it does not matter what I think or believe so long as I abide by wikipedia's rules. Here is the entire portion of the talk page with the personal attacks. user:Crotalus horridus labelled me as a racist by writing the following:

User:Saranghae honey supported user:Crotalus horridus actions by adding to this section with his or her own research on me here and here and is obviously working with user:Crotalus horridus in that he or she created a copy of Asian fetish here, while it is still under protection to circumvent obtaining community consensus. This was done at the advice of user:Crotalus horridus, diff. Saranghae honey's invitation to Crotalus horridus to update a copy of Asian fetish. Cool Hand Luke's approval of Saranghae honey's circumvention of gaining consensus.

User:Cool Hand Luke, an admin, encouraged more personal attacks by contributing to this section. He suggested that I should be blocked from editting diff.Then made the following comment diff: He then posted two links (first one, second one) to posts I've made on the forum. He wrote that this was wrong and then does this not once but TWICE!

This section ends with user:Crotalus horridus and User:Saranghae honey discussing about how it's ok to track what I am doing on wikipedia and arrogantly have this discussion on the Asian fetish tallk page diff.

I hope that the people will look past the emotions that the topic of Asian fetish invokes and see that I was personally attacked, bullied and stalked and will not let such actions go unpunished. And I am hoping that the board members will understand that the kind of actions these people are taking are consistent with the kind of editing and commenting they have been making on this article. Tkguy (talk) 08:41, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• Response to Admin board regarding involved parties' and Phoenix-wiki comments: Please note that all accusations being made against me are not being substantiated here and are possibly being used to draw attention away from the issue of me being personally attacked. I already provided proof that an admin is aware that comments made to me were inappropriate, Royalguard11's acknowledgement that an inappropriate comment was made against Tkguy. Even User:Cool Hand Luke acknowledged that researching me was not appropriate and then does it himself. And then he marks the section under "WP:CIVIL—remember, comment on the content, not the contributer". But I can't see how this is can be accepted as behaving in a "responsible manner, as expected of an administrator" after he made significant entries encouraging this kind of behavior. Tkguy (talk) 19:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Response to Newyorkbrad: I am confused by your suggestion can you please clarify what "appropriate involvement of administrators" means? I already noted that I went to 3 admins for help. One ignored my request for help. The second told me to look elsewhere. The third told me that the problem is with me telling others that I will initiate an arbitration. Also note that User:Cool Hand Luke is an admin and is an involved party. So 4 admins will not help me resolve this personal attack issue. And the last time we on the page did RfC User:Cool Hand Luke came to the page and user:Crotalus horridus came back after taking a long hiatus from editing this article.Tkguy (talk) 19:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Response to Saranghae honey: So you create a sandbox to avoid community input and you accuse me of pushing a POV? And you initiated the 4th failed AfD for Asian fetish AfD. Can you please substantiate your allegations that I am trying to push a POV? Seriously you keep accusing me of that but never ever provided actual proof. As for the stalking issue and personal attacks. Why are you trying to make it out like I am focused on your Sandbox and your discussion that it's ok to check my edits on the talk:Asian fetish? I pointed these things out to show that you are clearly working with user:Crotalus horridus and User:Cool Hand Luke. You clearly support user:Crotalus horridus personal attacks on me and his stalking of me off wikipedia. Tkguy (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Response to Crossmr: I recommend all to read the content of User:Crossmr link. Be aware much of the references in it that user:Crotalus horridus makes to edits that I've made were some of the first editing I've done on wikipedia. As I am still, even now, new to all this. Even though I believe I explain very well the situation of the edit wars on the page. But still this arbitration is once again regarding PERSONAL ATTACKS ON ME that were not being dealt with. Tkguy (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Response to Cool Hand Luke: Typically, I believe, disparaging remarks should be rolled back from the pages. You had the opportunity to do this twice but did not. Since you made your own personal attacks on me and posted links to the asian forums on the talk page, I don't think you can say that this issue is moot. Tkguy (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Response to Crotalus horridus: Can you please stay on topic? This is regarding your personal attacks on me. You make all these accusations and not one link to substantiate them. And I want all to know that you submitted the 3rd failed AfD for Asian fetish AfD. As for my brush with the 3rr rule, well that was when I first started editing and two individuals, user:Kaitenbushi and user:Christopher Mann McKay tricked me into violating the rule. The admin realized this and reverted my block and blocked one of the other two, user:Kaitenbushi for violating the 3rr rule. They then blocked user:Christopher Mann McKay because apparently he voliated the 3rr rule on yet another page and was rewarded an extra long 48 hour block for his work on tricking me. Most of the story right here. Tkguy (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Crotalus horridus

User:Tkguy is a disruptive single-purpose account who exclusively edits articles related to Asiaphilia, Asian fetish, and related issues. By his own admission, he has an "obsession with proving the prevalence of asiaphilia." He has shown himself consistently unable to follow our policies on neutral point of view and verifiability. The Asian fetish article has been protected twice recently, when the only real edit-warring was being instigated by Tkguy. Everyone else but him was discussing issues appropriately on the article talk page. Tkguy also has a very unclear understanding of Misplaced Pages policy on various other matters. He was blocked for violating the three-revert rule a while back, and unblocked early on the grounds that he didn't know about the rule. Above, he continues to show poor understanding by implying that there is something wrong about creating a sandbox in user space to continue to work on an article while it is protected. Nothing in Misplaced Pages policy or practice supports that contention.

It should be noted that Tkguy's forum posts show up very high on a Google search for his nickname. It's not as if I did any deep digging here. If he wished to retain anonymity, he could have chosen any other nickname he wanted.

No, it doesn't matter what Tkguy thinks as long as he abides by Misplaced Pages rules. But WP:NPOV and WP:V are two of our most important rules, and he has shown a repeated inability to follow them.

I urge Tkguy to withdraw this arbitration request. *** Crotalus *** 08:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Saranghae honey (talk · contribs)

Tkguy made no attempt at dispute resolution. If there was one, the proper consequence should have stopped Tkguy's edit warring and aggressive POV pushing at Asian fetish. He indeed is a single purpose account that has done little editing outside Asian fetish and Asiaphilia. Other editors worked cooperatively and even disagreed constructively except for Tkguy who ignored several Misplaced Pages policies including WP:CIVIL. I lost my patience towards him long, long ago for a good reason.

Tkguy has no understanding of Misplaced Pages policies which led to a post at AN/I which has lengthy yet only a partial list of Tkguy's hostile conduct to users who disagree with him. Crotalus Horridus did no deep digging when he googled "Tkguy." It's actually the second page that shows his activities outside of Misplaced Pages. I was not sure if I could comment on his activities outside of Misplaced Pages, but how can I not pretend to see what was posted on the talk page of Asian fetish? I was indeed astonished by his comments outside of Misplaced Pages.

Tkguy attacks me for making a sandbox. What's wrong with that? Again, Tkguy has no understanding of Misplaced Pages policies. Not having to follow manual of style or a consensus is the purpose of having a sandbox while I did invite feedback from several editors. Tkguy needs to understand Misplaced Pages:About the Sandbox. The part of his complaint also revolves around spying or stalking. Looking at "user contributions" of a POV-pusher is not spying or stalking not to mention that he only edits two articles. Editing the only two articles that he happens to edit is not stalking. миражinred (speak, my child...) 21:00, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Cool Hand Luke (talk · contribs)

User is a manifest SPA.

I placed the incivility under a hat, which I find to be useful in discouraging future incivility. I didn't remove the comments, but neither did Tkguy, although I advised him he should feel free to remove remarks he felt were personal attacks. Eventually he did remove them, and no editor added them back to the talk page. This dispute is therefore moot. No other dispute resolution was attempted besides.

However, if Tkguy continues to edit war on the article once it's unlocked, I will press for RfC and/or community sanction. Cool Hand Luke 23:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

New ANI thread: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed community topic ban for User:Tkguy on Asian fetish Cool Hand Luke 08:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by uninvolved Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs)

As far as I can see Cool Hand Luke (talk · contribs · uploads) acted in a responsible manner, as expected of an administrator. The "Tkguy" section of the talk page does not look like a personal attack, though I can see how one would be upset by it — Tkguy is refered to as a single purpose account. Cool Hand Luke simply said:

Yep. SPA. User seems to be promoting a line of original research postulating that Asian American suicides, among other social ills, are caused by the Asian fetish. This is not a forum for original research. Moreover, user liberally accuses other editors of vandalism in support of racism. I encourage this user—and all users—to avoid personal attacks and original research. Cool Hand Luke 21:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

That's just a warning not to post original research or make personal attacks. He also acted sensibly on most other sections of the talk page.--Phoenix-wiki 15:12, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

• I can't believe you changed my arbitration request from "Unfettered Personal Attacks, Bullying, and Stalking on Asian fetish" to "Asian fetish". Tkguy (talk) 00:50, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

He's quite correct to. Evidence speaks for itself here. Case names simply identify cases, they don't specify the conduct issues of the dispute, nor do they 'explain' the nature of the dispute or specify possible feelings about it. FT2  13:38, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Statement by partially involved Crossmr (talk · contribs)

I don't have much to add, but feel this link is relevant to the issue here Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive347#User:Tkguy_at_Asian_fetish.--Crossmr (talk) 23:57, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Clerk notes

(This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.)

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/5/0/0)

• Decline. I see nothing here at this stage that cannot be addressed by appropriate involvement of administrators. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline. The issues here seem clearcut and have not reached the complexity which would be required for arbitration. Sam Blacketer (talk) 12:14, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Decline. --jpgordon 20:53, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject. The Community can handle this situation. No need for ArbCom involvement. FloNight (talk) 21:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
• Reject per Flo. James F. (talk) 20:31, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Appeals and requests for clarification

Place appeals and requests for clarification on matters related to past Arbitration cases in this section. If the case is ongoing, please use the relevant talk page. Requests for enforcement of past cases should be made at Arbitration enforcement. Requests to clarify general Arbitration matters should be made on the Talk page. Place new requests at the top.

Request extension of RFAR/Martinphi-ScienceApologist to deal with multiple article disruptions

There is an ongoing problem with articles covering fringe scientific topics. As seen in the above case request, fringe articles are clearly targeted by a determined group of editors interested in inflating the legitimacy of the topics and de-weighting the scientific or evidence-based view. It is part of the wikipedia way of doing things that neither admins, nor arbcom, can make content rulings. Admins could be given more advanced tools for dealing with disruption, though.

Two prior cases, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/ScienceApologist, dealt with narrow topics and resulted in bans for a few single-purpose editors and "cautions" to ScienceApologist. As a result of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist, Martinphi is placed on probation and ScienceApologist on civility parole, but these remedies do not begin to address the broad range of disruptive behavior and continual disruption at multiple articles. There have been multiple complaints filed against ScienceApologist, mostly groundless or incredibly minor, by editors seemingly more interested in getting rid of him than editing collaboratively, and ScienceApologist has unfortunately taken the bait more than once and responded in an inappropriate manner. There has also been edit warring on multiple articles, and at least two three disputed articles are currently protected.

I believe that a broad article probation covering the entire topic is needed to give admins the tools to deal with this long-running battle. I propose giving admins discretion to ban individual editors from pages they edit disruptively, for the short or long term, enforceable by blocking, and/or to place editors on revert limitation. Because the three previous cases have resulted in only probation for one editor and civility parole for a second, out of a large group of interested editors, has not given administrators an effective means of dealing with this long-term problem area. Thatcher 23:40, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Please propose specific language for a motion that potentially affected editors and the committee can review. Thank you. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be premature to use the ultra-broad general sanctions imposed at Israel-Palestine, but 1RR and page bans are needed to impose some sort of order here. Thatcher 00:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

May I comment here? Anthon01 (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, general discussion is permitted. Thatcher 01:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments here are encouraged. To be most helpful, they should deal with how problems on these articles can be minimized going forward so that accurate, NPOV articles will be written and a harmonious editing environment maintained. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we can all recognize that Homeopathy is a controversial science, but pseudoscience is a pejorative that seems to be part of the problem here. Because what we need to move forward is an environment where editors treat one another with respect and let the sources speak for us in the article space. —Whig (talk) 01:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Whatever it is, it's a problem. Thatcher 01:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should be more conservative when stating what "we can all recognize" or agree upon. I certainly don't agree that Homeopathy is not pseudoscience (it is rightly included in Category:Pseudoscience), nor do I agree that the term "pseudoscience" is a pejorative - and apparently neither does the Arbitration Committee. Dlabtot (talk) 02:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be premature to use the ultra-broad general sanctions imposed at Israel-Palestine - Thatcher, what are those sanctions? Perhaps some of them would be appropriate here. Fwiw, I generally support your motion. Dlabtot (talk) 05:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Thatcher, if you read past the rhethoric and look at the actual page disruptions, especially the ones that lead to a page being locked, you'll find that only one or two editors cause it while everyone else is participating on the talk page, acting civily and with respect for each other, trying to reach consensus despite individual differences in viewpoint. There really are only a handful of editors (less than five) who don't care about that process and just want their way, wiki-process be damned. The rhetoric you read from them centers around their view that the wiki-process of trying to develop consensus needs to be changed because they feel it is broken, when surprisingly this system seems to work for everyone else but them. The system isn't broke, just some editors don't care about it. Check the logs on the two articles you used as examples and see who caused the pages to be locked, and why. In both cases it's because they (admittedly) didn't care about the consensus-building process. They're the same ones that are saying massive reform needs to take place. While they're busy disrupting pages and saying Misplaced Pages is broken, everyone else is on the talk page trying to address actual problems. Please don't confuse their view as a correct assessment of the problem when they're the ones that are acting like WP:MASTADONS. Everyone else seems to be able to get along just fine. --Nealparr 01:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't know to whom you are referring and perhaps it is best if you don't name names. Maybe. The point is that aside from a few single purpose accounts that have been banned for significant problems (Like User:Richard Malter and User:Asmodeus), three arbitration cases have not either resolved the problems of these articles or given admins tools to resolve them. Unless you can convince the Arbitrators to open a case against the 4 or 5 specific editors you are thinking of, the ability to levy page bans and 1RR limitation should allow admins to get these disputes under control. And if you are correct, then only those 4 or 5 editors will be affected. Thatcher 01:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I would never dream of filing an arbitration case against the 4 or 5 mastadon editors who are actually disruptive, even if I wanted to, when vexatious complaints are considered part of the problem and any admin can ban me for it. As I'm sure you know, misreadings and misinterpretations are common at Misplaced Pages. I was just pointing out that there are far more editors willing to work together on these articles than those who don't, and that the handful of mastadons are the real problem. --Nealparr 05:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
      • The range of articles covered by Thatcher's proposal is remarkably broad. Of course, I've often agitated for something similar, so I can't argue with it. I'd only say that admin discretion is paramount: these articles are frequented by single-purpose agenda-driven accounts which edit-war, edit tendentiously, etc. These sanctions should not hit editors who have to deal with such accounts, but they run the risk of being used in such a manner. That said, provided there's some standard recourse for review of sanctions (via WP:AN/I and/or ArbCom), I would find myself hard-pressed to disagree with Thatcher on this. MastCell 05:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
        • • Odd you mention that, because it's exactly what led to this whole flareup. I can't mention names for fear of being sanctioned, but one editor that is a self-admitted agenda-driven editor had sanctions placed against him after two arbitrations where he was found to be consistently uncivil. He calls some people some names, someone complains, and the editor gets blocked. A few days after he is unblocked he edit wars against RfC consensus, someone complains, he gets blocked again, and two articles get locked down because of his massive edits that resulted in edit warring. A few days after that he is uncivil again and gets blocked again. In the wake of all this, a bunch of supporting editors say he's being "provoked" (though no one talked to him before the edits) and say that none of this is actually his fault but rather vexatious litigation. These editors are all riled up and calling for better tools to stop editors from "picking on him" (some of these people are admins). Look, I usually get along with the editor, and don't have a problem with him except when he's gone all angry mastadon, but sometimes we do disagree. How am I not supposed to be afraid of admins running around with banning powers on anyone they feel is disruptive?, some of whom clearly want to "avenge" him. It's just one editor who started this whole thing, while acting like your typical, angry, agenda-driven editor. Everyone else was mostly getting along. (Note: I didn't mention names and tried to be as civil as I could and still explain the situation the way it happened; please don't ban me). --Nealparr 06:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Why make the pretense of not naming names when you've done all but that? Although he cannot respond here due to his block, I've notified the ostensibly innominate user. Please, if a discussion like this ever comes up about me (even if not by name) at a place like this, extend me the same courtesy. Antelan 07:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

If I had thought to I would have, but it's not like he can be sanctioned for anything I'm saying. He hasn't done anything new. My point is that these are broad ranging sanctions that could be misused, especially considering the exact circumstances involved that we're apparently not supposed to talk about because it's considered picking on someone. I don't understand any of this, quite frankly, because it focuses on possible future disruptions from a broad range of editors, when there's logs that show the locus of the dispute already in a small handful of editors. The locus is in editors who see Misplaced Pages as a battleground, not normal editors who get along and participate in normal content disputes. He knows how I feel about it, that I don't want him sanctioned further, and that I'd just like to see him stop being contentious. I'll send him a note. --Nealparr 07:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Honestly, if arbitration members feel it is a necessary addition to the Martinphi-ScienceApologist case to impose sanctions on a broad number of editors to prevent disruption, it's not that bad of a proposal. The current wording needs to drop the "vexatious litigation" part in a bad way though, because that's the part that is going to cause even more headaches as it's too open to interpretation. The proposal is effectively saying the ArbCom is tired of hearing about disruptions on these articles and is going to empower admins to deal with it by providing blocking tools. However, no one actually involved in the dispute is allowed to ask for help in resolving the situation because it may be interpreted as "solely to harass or subdue an adversary", in which case you'll be blocked too. Instead the only way to resolve the dispute is to hope that an uninvolved administrator happens upon the dispute by chance, reads through all the discussions, understands what's going on, and sides with you. Otherwise, you could get blocked just for telling the administrator that a disruptive editor made two reverts instead of one, or that someone called you a name. It happens. Busy admins don't always know what's going on and can interpret your good faith complaint in a bad way. I personally don't think that editors who try to work well with others, and don't see Misplaced Pages as a battleground, should be sanctioned and limited in what they can do here, but that's just my take on the subject. I am fully convinced, though, that imposing restrictions on what someone can complain about is just going to lead to more headaches. --Nealparr 11:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

(Unindented) If I may, here are two diffs the underscore the problem we are having with moving forward on many of these pages. I am not certain that admin tools alone will solve this problem. Regardless of the merits, I suspect admins, in good faith, could be found who would support both sides of these discussions. There are also admins, who in good faith, believe that discouraging "minority or fringe views" are more important than civility. Because of that, I am concern about the misuse of additional tools against editors who support the inclusion of RS/V minority views on fringe topics. Anthon01 (talk) 07:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, that's a valid point - it illustrates the fact that the Quackwatch article is being disrupted, as it has been for years, by voceferous opponents of mainstream medicine and Stephen Barrett, and that this is winding up those who are here to write an encyclopaedia rather than serve an agenda. So much so that several people believe you, Anthon01, to be Anthony Zaffuto, and thus almost certainly an unacceptable party on that page per the restrictions and ban on Ilena Rosenthal. Guy (Help!) 12:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for the Matthew Hoffman case to be closed with no decisions, FoF, etc..

It's been a month of being criticised at the RfCs, a month and a half before that was spent criticising me at the case, and the actual block was back in September. Can we accept that I am sufficiently cautioned and throw out the case, which was accepted as a "test case", but actually worked out to a "torment the admin who's undergoing exams, money problems, and so on" for several months. Can we accept that I am sufficiently chastened by now, and let me get on with my life? Adam Cuerden 21:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Request for block log annotation (Whig)

Regardless of whatever disposition the ArbCom would like to make of the Matthew Hoffman case, I would request an annotation to my block log. Since Adam declines to do this himself, I would ask the ArbCom to review his blocks of my account. —Whig (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Your request will be considered by the committee, but I think we should make it clear that annotating a user's block log to indicate that the Arbitration Committee finds that a block was unjustified is an unusual remedy and is going to be reserved for extreme situations. This remedy was employed, for example, in a recent case where the blocking administrator offered no explanation for a block at the time it was imposed, the admin claimed not even to remember the block when it was questioned later, and circumstances justified the conclusion that the block may have been inspired by an unrelated dispute on another website and thus was grossly out of order. I am not suggesting that a judgment has been reached on whether this remedy is available to Whig or for that matter to MatthewHoffman (in fact, I am presently inactive on this case, which originated last year, before I and the other new arbitrators joined the committee). But I would not want to leave the impression that the committee is in a position to review every questioned block, even after it has expired, in the absence of extreme or unusual circumstances. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:59, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Relevant to the blocks in question is Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Whig 2. MastCell 05:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Please note my responses and especially those of Wanderer57. —Whig (talk) 06:14, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Appeal against notice to ban for incivility by user Mrg3105

The action was taken under the premise of:
General restriction

11) Any editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe, broadly defined, may be made subject to an editing restriction at the discretion of any uninvolved administrator. The restriction shall specify that, should the editor make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below. Before the restriction shall come into effect for a particular editor, that editor shall be given an official notice of it with a link to this decision.

I would like to appeal against this action and the finding of my incivility based on the following points:

1. My incivility was never explicitly stated by the administrator who imposed it despite a request to do so. Another administrator (Thatcher) simply suggesting the need for Dispute resolution, without considering that a 'request to move' is a form of dispute resolution.

2. Under some circumstances incivility is justified such as when the Misplaced Pages user is found to be using methods of argument during a discussion which are easily likened to abuse of logic, lying or propaganda, all of which contradict Misplaced Pages NPOV policy. The ruling is therefore largely the administrator's POV who may be unaware of the behaviour of the other party.

3. In order for the 'personal attack' to be personal, a person needs to be explicitly named. Since no such person was named in the cited evidence against me, the attack could only have been directed at the line of argument offered by the opposers of the 'proposal to move', which was in part lacking in supporting evidence, and therefore deceptive. In fact the proposition that I directed a personal attack contradicts my personal values that "one talks about ideas and not people"

4. If I am accused of assumptions of bad faith, then I submit that the action of the other party was in fact the precursor of the 'request for move' as a means of remedies in equity due to my inability to assume good faith given the action of renaming the article in the first place, which, without discussion, was tantamount to negation of good faith as per Misplaced Pages's policy that "Bad faith editing can include deliberate disruption just to prove a point, playing games with policies, and vandalism". In this case the points being attempted to be proven are that: a) the article is focused on places in the event name and not on the historical event itself, and b) that Romanian and European Union naming policy over-rides that of WP:UE, WP:MILMOS#NAME, and WP:ROR, for which I can find no evidence in Misplaced Pages policy.

5. That in any case, I could not be warned under the Digwuren enforcement as an "editor working on topics related to Eastern Europe" since the article is intended to be an NPOV description of of a military operation by an armed force which at one time could be claimed to have been present in Europe, Asia, Africa, the Pacific Ocean and the Arctic. It is not a topic related to Eastern Europe despite being situated in Eastern Europe in the same way that all discussion of Architecture will inevitably include Eastern Europe. This would require similar enforcements to be enacted every time any editor chose to document operations by the Soviet Army in any of these global regions should anyone fund them controversial, or any topic that might include Eastern Europe, which is a large majority of Misplaced Pages content.

I look forward to my user name being cleared of these accusations.

Thank you --mrg3105mrg3105 00:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

• Reviewers should refer to this AE thread: Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#User:Mrg3105. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
  • User has been blocked for 24 hours for incivility . Thatcher 23:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
    • In my opinion rightly so. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:39, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now what happens to the undiscussed arbitrary renaming of the historically non-extant Battle of Romania into the non-WP:UE, non-WP:MILMOS#NAME, and non-WP:ROR compliant Iaşi-Chişinău Offensive, and the subsequent denial of the RM based on arguments that did not apply to the reasons given for the RM?--mrg3105mrg3105 01:05, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Anyeverybody/Anynobody and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS

From the start it's important to understand that I am here to contribute, I can't boast WP:FA after WP:FA since the subjects I have the most knowledge about are controversial. As such they are difficult to edit into Featured shape. Nor is my edit count as high as our more prolific contributors, however as proof of my commitment I can point to over 250 free images created, enhanced or found and added to the project. (I'd guesstimate 85-90% are images I created or enhanced for the project, while the rest are simply Public Domain images found on government/military websites. I'll lowball my efforts and keep the number at 100 to make things easier for those not mathmatically inclined. 85% of 100 is 85. Many of them took more than a few hours of work and are used on several projects. (Essentially I'm also contributing to the Japanese, German, Hebrew, Vietnamese, Russian (in fact both of the two on this page are mine, the list goes on and includes five or six other languages. It also includes an image nominated for Featured status. I'm not trying to brag, but since people seem to think I'm only about trolling or gaming the system it's important to show that to be untrue. I wouldn't spend so much time helping out to turn around and troll someone while gaming the system.

The case itself was, I thought, going to be about the issue of people using Church of Scientology IPs and open proxies to edit Scientology related articles with a pretty clear view towards affecting the POV of said articles. I honestly thought that Bishonen bringing up the disagreement between Justanother and I was pretty unrelated to the case and that the arbcom would think the same thing. By the time it was clear that they didn't, I was being accused of harassment, thereby making any effort to show past, and more extensive, bad behavior on his part seem like confirmation of my harassment of him. It's very frustrating to have so many people assume bad faith on my part because a popular admin does.

For example Justanother recently cited an example of what he called bad faith on my part:Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/COFS/Workshop#Disclosure of report to WP:3RR regarding Justanother. The issue of my supposed harassment was recently brought up in the arbcom, then as now, nobody would give specifics about what was/was not harassment. Certainly reminding him that 3RR rules apply to everyone wouldn't be considered harassment, since it's true: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive55#User:Justanother reported by User:Anynobody (Result: No action, warned) If you read the thread itself it should be obvious that I simply wanted to warn him that as he had made the same mistake as the editor he was trying to get blocked. (Please note also that I created both the arbcom thread and the 3RR note in good faith, if I was acting in bad faith, why would I turn around and tell the arbcom about it? I also didn't ask for or insist on a block at any time.)

So I'm asking for the arbcom to either let me explain/address whatever evidence they decided warranted an assumption of bad faith on my part, or failing that allow me to present evidence of how any harassment I could have inflicted is minimized by similar behavior which he initiated first and with other editors (who no longer edit anymore). Why am I bringing this up now? Because Justanother has begun using this case to leverage his position on articles like: Neutral reportage where he is currently arguing against including sourced material about a person who's article was recently deleted but is also mentioned in said article, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement/Archive12#User:Anyeverybody (AKA User:Anynobody) and Barbara Schwarz by accusing me of editing the wrong part of neutral reportage before other parts are added as the reason why it's inappropriate to talk about the Salt Lake Tribune's use of Neutral reportage to defeat Barbara Schwarz's defamation suit. He's also been posting on my talk page, which begs the question, if I harassed him, why come back for more?

I think the findings re him and I in the case should be dropped, and any future issues be dealt with through dispute resolution which was essentially skipped before. Going to arbcom for editor disputes in the context of an entirely separate issue seems to be pretty rare, except in this case. (Heck, we skipped Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation entirely.) Anynobody 07:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment by Justanother (JustaHulk)

Leaving the issue of the appropriateness of Anyeverybody's (Anynobody or AN) attacks on me here and sticking strictly to the facts, I do want to respond to a couple of AN's misrepresentations here.

1. Re: "For example Justanother recently cited an example of what he called bad faith on my part:" That is a complete misread of my remark at WP:AE#Friendly reminder requested. The bad faith I was referring to was this:

   "AN constantly claims that he does not understand the ruling but when it is clearly explained to him, he ignores the explanation and grossly violates it by trotting out his collections of old, out-of-context diffs regarding me."

   That is bad faith. The other bit in that remark was clearly an answer to AN's previous question:

   "Could you please provide a diff from the arbcom where I pulled "this crap" and was told why what I did was like/unlike this? (Seriously, I'm not holding a grudge I just can't remember doing anything like what I've identified as harassment. Would you please just show where/when I did the same thing?) Anynobody 06:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)"

2. AN accuses me of "using this case to leverage his position on articles like: Neutral reportage". That is a lie - I never tried to use the harassment restriction on AN to my own advantage and, in fact, went out of my way to not make the restriction a problem for him. I did not accuse him of violating it in this case until he brought it up on WP:AE and, even then I did not accuse him of violating it until he did so in a gross and obvious manner. As regards editing together, there is no reason why I would stop taking an interest in the representation of Barbara Schwarz here and if AN intends to continue adding Schwarz material then he can expect my continued interest and involvement. Again, I went out of my way to NOT make our disagreement in the article have anything to do with the harassment ruling and I repeatedly clarified for him that he is perfectly free to seek WP:DR on any issues related to article content that we may have. Gotta run now but that pretty well sums it up. Thanks. --JustaHulk (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

AN constantly claims that he does not understand the ruling but when it is clearly explained to him, he ignores the explanation and grossly violates it by trotting out his collections of old, out-of-context diffs regarding me If it ever was explained I honestly don't remember or didn't see it. Please assume good faith and show me where it was explained when/how my behavior crossed into the area of harassment. The examples I've cited are not out of context when discussing the difference between harassment and acceptable behavior. If Template:Multicol This:

• 3/8 The attempted WP:RfC/U by myself, Smee and perhaps other editors who found themselves unable to resolve their disputes with him.
• Answering a question about it posed by a neutral editor during my RfA

and

• Asking neutral editors where I went wrong
• 6/19 Is it a personal attack to document an editor's uncivil behavior?

...is harassment...

If one assumes good faith I tried to resolve a dispute involving several editors through dispute resolution, requested admin tools to help with some backlogs and in the process answered a question, then asked for independent feedback, later asking uninvolved admins if it is a personal attack to document an editor's uncivil behavior?

If one assumes bad faith, I'm not sure what they think I was doing because they'd have to assume I was out to attack him rather than resolve disputes. This doesn't describe the situation because I'd never intentionally set out to attack someone, since it doesn't actually solve anything and would actually work against me. Template:Multicol-break

Template:Multicol-break this:
*(Note, these diffs are Justanother posting his disputes regarding Smee's editing on WP:ANI/WP:AN3R and that none of them are about me. Why bring up his dealings with Smee up? To show that I'm not trying to attack him when I say other editors have had difficulty editing with him, and help explain why I felt the RfC/U was appropriate. Diffs before the RfC/U are underlined)*

...wasn't, what's the difference?

If one assumes good faith Justanother was simply being diligent about perceived violations of the rules regarding this editor. If one assumes bad faith, he was following an editor who was being recognized for adding material he found objectionable. Template:Multicol-end I honestly think the difference is that people do not assume good faith on my part, based on accusations by a popular admin who no longer seems to be editing here and didn't take the time to actually look at the conversation/context of what she cited as evidence. I never even asked that he be blocked, and have said numerous times that I don't want to see anyone banned. Even now I'm asking just that ordinary dispute resolution be used for future disagreements and am not and never have asked for him to be ruled against. Accusing me of editing under bad faith given these facts has been hard to come to grips with. Anynobody 07:22, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The only specific finding against you was that you were prohibited from harassing Justanother. Another finding specifically said it implied nothing about your editing. As no-one is allowed to harass another user (see WP:HARASS) the effect is to specifically order you not to do something that you should not have been doing anyway. The article probation for all scientology articles affects you just as much as every other editor. In those circumstances I see no cause to interfere with the remedies in this case. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:45, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I should explain that I'm not asking for article probation to be changed. Did you see this finding? Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS#Harassment of User:Justanother by User:Anynobody I have been blocked twice for trying to find out more information about it, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS#Log of blocks and bans. Anynobody 21:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reviewed this submission and see no need for any clarification or modification of the remedies at this time. I suggest that you drop this matter and proceed with your editing. Newyorkbrad (talk) 08:48, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Would you mind explaining what in your review leads you to say that? Or, with all due respect, is this another comment you can't or won't explain? (If you're just backing up you know who then please say so.) Anynobody 23:11, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it's time to strengthen the remedies against Anynobody. What we have in place does not seem sufficient to deter the constant low-level baiting and bad faith that he repeatedly demonstrates, such as the post above. Jehochman 23:18, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• Little Jehochman correct. Jehochman already much patience and little avail. Anynobody back in very stubborn mode from which arbcom attempted discouragement, see little 'shonen RFAR/COFS evidence. 'Zilla propose special remedy for unusual Anynobody case: Anynobody prohibited from making other users tear their hair out in frustration. Enforcement: on evidence substantial portions pre-existent hair missing, any admin block Anynobody briefly, up to a month for repeat offenses. After five blocks, maximum block increase to one year. bishzilla _ROARR!! 10:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

Free Republic

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Free_Republic#Free_Republic_placed_on_article_probation

The Arbitration Committee has placed this article on probation. Editors making disruptive edits may be banned by an administrator from this and related articles, or other reasonably related pages.

The article is about a conservative Internet forum founded by Jim Robinson. User:Eschoir is a former member of that forum who was permanently banned in 1998 for creating nearly 100 sockpuppet accounts for purposes of disruption. He has been called "the ubertroll Eschoir," and the person using this descriptive term was clearly not biased against him by any sympathies with Free Republic. Eschoir was so disruptive that Robinson found it necessary to spend $110,000 on a federal lawsuit to obtain a permanent injunction against him. If he ever starts another account at Free Republic, he can be jailed for contempt of court. This is the mother of all WP:COI problems. Eschoir never should have been allowed to edit the Free Republic article.

Nevertheless, Fred Bauder was willing to AGF, as seen on Eschoir's User talk page. From that moment forward, Eschoir steadily transformed the Free Republic article into his own bitter little personal blog. It was an inventory of every petty little feud that occurred between Free Republic members, and every nutball statement that was ever said in a ten-year history of about 2 million posts in their forum. The article gradually moved farther and farther away from compliance with WP:NPOV.

At one point, he added an edit containing the word "penis", describing an alleged event involving two real people: Kristinn Taylor, a prominent participant at Free Republic, and another participant using the alias "Dr. Raoul." Since the article isn't about a topic dealing with sexuality or medicine, this immediately attracted my attention regarding a possible WP:BLP violation. (Since then, Eschoir has admitted that the alleged event never occurred.)

I placed a final warning for vandalism on Eschoir's Talk page and started actively editing the article to bring it into NPOV compliance. Ever since that moment, he has been making false WP:SOCK accusations, see edit summary see edit summary see edit summary see edit summary see edit summary and occupied territory that's best described as a continuous violation of WP:NPOV, WP:TE, WP:DE, WP:AGF, WP:NPA and WP:DBAD. Eschoir expanded a quotation from Robinson into a blockquote, continuing his campaign of cherry-picking quotations that make Free Republic look like a collection of nutballs and criminals. He chopped up a Talk page post into an incomprehensible mess by inserting a contentious and contemptuous response between its lines.

Eschoir then began to engage in a full-fledged edit war to revert edits that were supported by consensus, and clearly intended to restore NPOV. see edit summary

When User:BenBurch offered to do a complete rewrite, or “refactoring” of the article in an effort to end the edit war, at first it seemed like a good idea. Eschoir offered several recommendations, including using a reverse chronology format, but couldn't resist making another jab at FR regarding "volunteer shock troops" and "holy war." (See also here regarding reverse chronology format.)

Rather than wait for BenBurch to do it, Eschoir did the refactoring himself on a "sandbox" page. Now it's obvious why Eschoir wants to go with a reverse chronology. It enables him to stuff all of the following epithets, from recent critics describing Free Republic, into the first 161 words of the article:

• vile
• hateful
• besmirching Christian values
• some pretty sick people posting
• inciting the murder of Hillary Clinton
• racist and homophobic
• poor moderation
• victimized by a wave of purges

Eschoir’s continued efforts to demean anyone on the Talk:Free Republic page who doesn’t share his position: Said efforts have been recognized as demeaning by others: This is a perfect example of why COI editors need to be watched closely. Please take the necessary action.

I previously brought this up for enforcement at WP:ANI Arbitration Enforcement. I was told that your ruling was so vague that it's unenforceable, and that I should bring this issue to WP:RFAR Clarification. The ruling from the previous arbitration must be modified so that no administrator could possibly misunderstand that he has the authority, and the duty, to ban editors from editing the Free Republic article and related pages for being disruptive, failing to assume good faith, or making personal attacks. Specifically, please ban Eschoir from editing the article. It's been 10 years since he was banned from Free Republic for creating nearly 100 sockpuppet accounts. His refactoring of the Free Republic article demonstrates that even after 10 years, he can't resist the temptation to turn a Misplaced Pages article into a Poison pen letter to Jim Robinson. Samurai Commuter (talk) 20:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Blatantly disruptive editing on any article can be dealt with by any uninvolved administrator, following consultation on WP:ANI where appropriate. Arbitration (or arbitration clarification) is not always necessary, and may not be needed here if administrators conclude that the problem is serious enough. With specific respect to Eschoir, the editing history described above is very troubling, although I would welcome comment here by Eschoir before reaching a further conclusion. (I see that Eschoir was apparently not notified of this request for clarification, and have left him a talkpage note asking him to respond.) It is also noteworthy that a proposed finding of fact during last year's case, though not ultimately adopted, stated that "Eschoir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) bears the name of an editor banned by Free Republic whose disruption of the site was so severe that an injunction was entered by a federal district court forbidding disruption of the site." If User:Eschoir is, or seeks to emulate, the individual covered by the court decision, then it might indeed be suitable for him to discontinue editing this particular article. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you're stuck with this one, Brad. The previous article probation was advisory only, stating that the situation would be reviewed upon motion of an Arbitrator or request from an editor. After a very cursory review there is nothing in Eschoir's recent history that would be disruptive enough for a page ban in the absence of previous DR, and as you know community-enforced page bans are still somewhat novel. Thatcher 19:49, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. Samurai Commuter is clearly BryanfromPalatine, picking up from where he left before his permaban. I will give you my evidence should it be required. I think it's obvious. If there is a need to respond to his diatribe, I will do so. I will clarify again one serious sounding misconception.

"Eschoir (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) bears the name of an editor banned by Free Republic whose disruption of the site was so severe that an injunction was entered by a federal district court forbidding disruption of the site." If User:Eschoir is, or seeks to emulate, the individual covered by the court decision,

There was no "court decision," no hearings, no witnesses, no trials. Because I testified for the LATimes in the coppyright case, they sued me in state court for a million dollars. The wrong state court. I removed it to Federal Court for strategic reasons. They spent $110,000 pursuing me, then settled the case on my terms. Since they got no damages, they wanted at least an injunction, so I gave them one in the settlement papers. There was no wrongdoing alleged in the settlement and releases. Their lawyer, Bryan's mentor, was later disbarred.

Thannks again for the Heads-up. Eschoir (talk) 22:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

This is what Newyorkbrad said: "With specific respect to Eschoir, the editing history described above is very troubling, although I would welcome comment here by Eschoir before reaching a further conclusion." Eschoir has offered no comments about his editing history. I suggest that some explanation of his editing history is called for here, in light of the many troublesome diffs I've posted here. But Eschoir remains silent. Samurai Commuter (talk) 20:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

outing, harassment

Samurai Commuter placed links here to Freerepublic.com, linking to harassing and outing of Misplaced Pages editors here. I removed it and mailed oversight. It looks like there are other things like that on that message board. Is it appropriate for users to be linking there? Lawrence Cohen 07:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I suspect the editor "Samurai Commuter" is the banned editor "BryanFromPalatine", based on the comments and actions on this page. See also this evidence in a current RFAR: here. The user has asked me to restore a modified version of his 'evidence' to this section, but I am disinclined to do so as I have mailed Oversight to have it removed for exposing personal information about other editors here. Lawrence Cohen 19:32, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I notice that Lawrence Cohen blanked an entire section of ArbCom evidence, claiming that I posted links to personal information about Eschoir. In the preceding section, Eschoir admitted that he is the real person who was sued by an Internet forum, for creating nearly 100 sockpuppets for purposes of disruption. Eschoir then provided a ridiculous narrative of that litigation, which had ending in a federal injunction against him.

I posted two links to online court documents, proving that Eschoir's narrative was ridiculous. I also posted a lot of diffs from right here at Misplaced Pages that took time to compile, and proved Eschoir's continued disruptive activity and edit warring. If privacy was really the issue, it would have been sufficient to delete the links to the two court documents and leave a pleasant note on my User Talk page. Instead, Lawrence Cohen blanked the entire section, reported me as a single purpose attack account, and had me blocked indefinitely. He is now refusing to restore the evidence section he deleted, or even discuss the matter. Please see his User Talk page.

I'd appreciate a ruling on this at ArbCom's convenience. By admitting that he is the real person in question, by prevaricating about the federal injunction against him, and by continuing his efforts to turn a Misplaced Pages article into a Poison pen letter, Eschoir has opened the door to this discussion. Samurai Commuter (talk) 19:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Please send a copy of any information that you believe was wrongfully blanked to the Arbitration Committee mailing list by e-mail. Please also respond to the assertion that you are the same individual as the banned user BrianFromPalatine. If you are, you are still entitled to have your concern with the article considered if you submit it by e-mail, but you should not be posting on-wiki. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No comment on User:Samurai Commuter's concerns, but the accounts 52 edits all seem to be related to this subject. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 23:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

When there's a disagreement on content, we're asked to work it out on the article's Talk page. My reward for trying to do that is the suggestion that I'm an SPA. Samurai Commuter (talk) 11:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad, I have some info on this regarding BrionfromPalatine that you may want. It is nothing you can't get yourself, but since I have been involved with this page for a while I can give you an idea of the general situation if you would like. Email me if you would like that. Prodego 21:03, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Please forward any relevant information that is not suitable for posting on-wiki to the Arbitration Committee mailing list (see WP:AC for address or e-mail to me for forwarding). Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI to anyone keeping score on this particular drama, I have blocked both Eschoir (talk · contribs) and Samurai Commuter (talk · contribs) pursuant to mutual 3RR requests at WP:AN3. I went over the diffs closely and there's nothing blatantly disruptive on either side that would be an exemption to 3RR limitations. The whole article is a cesspool, but that's beside the point. As always, if I have missed something, feel free to adjust my actions accordingly. --B (talk) 06:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Motions in prior cases

Motions

Shortcuts WP:ARM WP:ARBM This section can be used by arbitrators to propose motions not related to any existing case or request. Motions are archived at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Index/Motions. Only arbitrators may propose or vote on motions on this page. You may visit WP:ARC or WP:ARCA for potential alternatives. Make a motion (Arbitrators only) You can make comments in the sections called "community discussion" or in some cases only in your own section. Arbitrators or clerks may summarily remove or refactor any comment.

Arbitrator workflow motions

Workflow motions: Arbitrator discussion

• I am proposing these three motions for discussion, community input, and a vote. Each seeks to improve ArbCom's functioning by providing for the performance of basic administrative responsibilities that sometimes go neglected, which, in my opinion, if successful, would significantly improve ArbCom's overall capacity. Motivation: We've known about the need for improvements to our workflow and capacity for some years now – I wrote about some of these suggestions in my 2022 ACE statement. It's a regular occurrence that someone will email in with a request or information and, because of the press of other work and because nobody is responsible for tracking and following up on the thread, we will let the thread drop without even realizing it and without deciding that no action is needed. We can each probably name a number of times this has happened, but one recent public example of adverse consequences from such a blunder was highlighted in the Covert canvassing and proxying in the Israel-Arab conflict topic area case request, which was partially caused by our failure to address a private request that had been submitted to us months earlier. Previous efforts: We've experimented with a number of technological solutions to this problem during my four years on the Committee, including: (a) tracking matters on a Trello board or on a private Phabricator space; (b) tracking threads in Google Groups with tags; (c) requesting the development of custom technical tools; (d) reducing the appeals we hear; and (e) tracking appeals more carefully on arbwiki. Some of these attempts have been moderately successful, or showed promise for a time before stalling, but none of them have fully and fundamentally addressed this dropping-balls issue, which has persisted, and which in my opinion requires a human solution rather than just a technological solution. Rationale: The work we need done as framed below (e.g. bumping email threads) isn't fundamentally difficult or sensitive, but it's essential, and it's structurally hard for an active arbitrator to be responsible for doing it. For example, I could never bring myself to bump/nag others to opine on matters that I hadn't done my best to resolve yet myself. But actually doing the research to substantively opine on an old thread (especially as the first arb) can take hours of work, and I'm more likely to forget about it before I have the time to resolve it, and then it'll get lost in the shuffle. So it's best to somewhat decouple the tracking/clerical function from the substantive arb-ing work. Other efforts: There is one more technological solution for which there was interest among arbitrators, which was to get a CRM/ticketing system – basically, VRTS but hopefully better. I think this could help and would layer well with any of the other options, but there are some open questions (e.g., which one to get, how to pay for it, whether we can get all arbs to adopt it), and I don't think that that alone would address this problem (see similar attempts discussed above), so I think we should move ahead with one of these three motions now and adopt a ticketing system with whichever of the other motions we end up going with. These three motions are the result of substantial internal workshopping, and have been variously discussed (as relevant) with the functionaries, the clerks, and the Wikimedia Foundation (on a call in November). Before that, we held an ideation session on workflow improvements with the Foundation in July and have had informal discussions for a number of years. I deeply appreciate the effort and input that has gone into these motions from the entire committee and from the clerks and functionaries, and hope we can now pass one of them. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
  • One other thing I forgot to suggest—I'd be glad to write motions 1 or 2 up as a trial if any arb prefers, perhaps for 6-12 months, after which the motion could be automatically repealed unless the committee takes further action by motion to permanently continue the motion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 23:39, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Workflow motions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Workflow motions: Implementation notes

Clerks and Arbitrators should use this section to clarify their understanding of which motions are passing. These notes were last updated by an automatic check at 12:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Motion name	Support	Oppose	Abstain	Passing	Support needed	Notes
Motion 1: Correspondence clerks	2	3	0		4	One support vote contingent on 1.4 passing
Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener"	1	2	1		4
Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant"	0	1	3		4
Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial)	0	3	1		5
Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly	1	2	1		4
Motion 2: WMF staff support	0	5	0		Cannot pass
Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators	4	0	0		2
Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks	0	3	0		6

Notes

Motion 1: Correspondence clerks

Nine-month trial

The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it:

Correspondence clerks

The Arbitration Committee may appoint one or more former elected members of the Arbitration Committee to be correspondence clerks for the Arbitration Committee. Correspondence clerks must meet the Wikimedia Foundation's criteria for access to non-public personal data and sign the Foundation's non-public information confidentiality agreement.

Correspondence clerks shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.

The specific responsibilities of correspondence clerks shall include:

• Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
• Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
• Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
• Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
• Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of correspondence clerks shall not include:

• Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
• Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks.

All correspondence clerks shall hold concurrent appointments as arbitration clerks and shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. This is my first choice and falls within ArbCom's community-granted authority to approve and remove access to mailing lists maintained by the Arbitration Committee and to designate individuals for particular tasks or roles and maintain a panel of clerks to assist with the smooth running of its functions. Currently, we have arbitration clerks to help with on-wiki work, but most of ArbCom's workload is private (on arbcom-en), and our clerks have no ability to help with that because they can't access any of ArbCom's non-public work. It has always seemed strange to me to have clerks for on-wiki work, but not for the bulk of the work which is off-wiki (and which has always needed more coordination help). When consulting the functionaries, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that four functionaries (including three former arbitrators) expressed interest in volunteering for this role. This would be lower-intensity than serving as an arbitrator, but still essential to the functioning of the committee. We already have a number of ex-arbs on the clerks-l mailing list to advise and assist, and this seems like a natural extension of that function. The Stewards have a somewhat similar "Steward clerk" role, although ArbCom correspondence clerks would be a higher-trust position (functionary-level appointments only). I see this as the strongest option because the structure is familiar (analogous to our existing clerks, but for off-wiki business), because we have trusted functionaries and former arbs interested who could well discharge these responsibilities, and because I think we would benefit from separating the administrative responsibility from the substantive responsibility. The cons I see are that volunteer correspondence clerks might be less reliable than paid staff and that we'd be adding one or two (ish) people to the arbcom-en list. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Contingent on 1.4 passing. This option was not my first choice, and I'm inclined to try having a coordinating Arb first, if we can get a volunteer/set of volunteers. Given that the new term should infuse the Committee with more life and vigor, we may find a coordinating Arb, or another solution. But I think we should put this in our toolbox for the moment. This doesn't force us to appoint someone, just gives us the ability and outlines the position. CaptainEek ⚓ 05:29, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't think we should extend access to the mailing list and the private information it contains beyond what is absolutely necessary. I understand the reasoning behind former arbitrators in such a role as they previously had such access, but people emailing the Arbitration Committee should have confidence that private information is kept need to know and that only the current arbitrators evaluating and making decisions based on that private information have ongoing access to it. - Aoidh (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
3. This is limited to former arbitrators for good reasons, most of them privacy-related. But the same concerns that led to this proposal being limited to former arbitrators are also arguments against doing this at all. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

Motion 1: Arbitrator views and discussions

• I'd be glad changing this to only appoint former arbs, if that would tip anyone's votes. Currently, it's written as "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps (and preferably from among former members of the Arbitration Committee)" for flexibility if needed, but I imagine we would only really appoint former arbs if available, except under unusual circumstances, because they understand how the mailing list discussions go and have previously been elected to handle the same private info. I am also open to calling it something other than "correspondence clerk"; that just seemed like a descriptive title. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  I do like the idea of using our Arbs emeritus for this position (and perhaps only Arbs emeritus); it ensures that they have experience in our byzantine process, and at least at some point held community trust. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

  @CaptainEek: I have changed the motion to make only former arbs eligible. If anyone preferred broader (all funct) eligibility, I've added an alternative motion 1.1 below, which if any arb does prefer it, they should uncollapse and vote for it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:07, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

• I also think that if we adopt this we should choose a better name. I know Barkeep49 meant this suggestion as a bit of a joke, but I actually think he was on the money when he suggested "scrivener." I like "adjutant" even more, which I believe he also suggested. They capture the sort of whimsical Misplaced Pages charm evoked by titles like Most Pluperfect Labutnum while still being descriptive, and not easily confused for a traditional clerk. CaptainEek ⚓ 03:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

  Whimsy is important -- Guerillero 08:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

• @CaptainEek and Guerillero: Per the above discussion points, I have (a) proposed two alternative names below that were workshopped among some arbs ("scrivener" on the more whimsical side and "coordination assistant" on the less whimsical side; see motions 1.2a and 1.2b), and (b) made this motion a nine-month trial, after which time the section is automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to extend it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:10, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
• I plan on supporting motion 1 over anything else. I've spent a week just getting onto all the platforms, and I'm already kind of shocked that this is how we do things. Not only is there a lot to keep track of, all of the information moves unintuitively between different places in a way that makes it very difficult to keep up unless you're actively plugged in enough to be on top of the ball – which I don't think anyone can be all the time. I just don't think a coordinating arb is sufficient: we need someone who can keep us on track without having to handle all of the standard work of reviewing evidence, deliberating, and making an informed decision. (Better-organized tech would also be great, but I'd need to spend a lot more time thinking about how it could be redone.) I understand the privacy concerns, but I don't think this represents a significant breach of confidentiality: people care more whether their report gets handled properly than whether it goes before 15 trusted people or 16. So, I'll be voting in favor of motion 1, and maybe motion 3 will be a distant second. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

References

1. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy § Scope and responsibilities
2. Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Policy § Procedures and roles

Motion 1.1: expand eligible set to functionaries

Motion 1.2a: name the role "scrivener"

If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "scriveners".

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. Nicely whimsical, and not as likely to be confusing as correspondence clerk. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think correspondence clerk is fine if role is something we're going with, it's less ambiguous as to what it entails than scrivener. - Aoidh (talk) 04:12, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. I have never heard that word before; at least "correspondence" and "clerk" are somewhat common in the English Misplaced Pages world. When possible, I think we should use words people don't have to look up in dictionaries. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

1. I think that because it's more archaic and possibly less serious, I disprefer this to either "coordination assistant" or "correspondence clerk", but would ultimately be perfectly happy with it. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.2b: name the role "coordination assistant"

If motion 1 passes, replace the term "correspondence clerks" wherever it appears with the term "coordination assistants".

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

Oppose

1. bleh. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

1. I am indifferent between this and "correspondence clerk". Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:11, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
2. If we're going to use a role like this, either this or correspondence clerk is fine. - Aoidh (talk) 04:13, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
3. That would be okay. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.3: make permanent (not trial)

If motion 1 passes, omit the text for a trial period of nine months from the date of enactment, after which time the section shall be automatically repealed unless the Committee takes action to make it permanent or otherwise extend it.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

Oppose

1. I recently experimented with sunset clauses and think that frankly a lot more of what we do should have such time limits that require us to stop and critically evaluate if a thing is working. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:19, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
2. If this change is necessary, there should be a review of it after a reasonable trial period to see what does and does not work. - Aoidh (talk) 01:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
3. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:10, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

1. I have no preference as to whether this is permanent or a trial. I do think that nine months is a good length for the trial if we choose to have one: not too long to lock in a year's committee; not too short to make it unworthwhile. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

Motion 1.4: expanding arbcom-en directly

If motion 1 passes, strike the following text:

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

And replace it with the following:

To that end, correspondence clerks shall be added to the arbcom-en mailing list. The Committee shall continue to maintain at least one mailing list accessible only by arbitrators.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. Much less trouble to have them on the main list than to split the lists. CaptainEek ⚓ 04:13, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Access to private information should be as limited as possible to only what is strictly necessary to perform such a task, and I don't see a allowing full access to the contents of the current list necessary for this. I'd rather not split the list, but between that and giving full access then if we're going to have a correspondence clerk, then it needs to be split. - Aoidh (talk) 04:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Motion 1 is already problematic for privacy reasons; this would make it worse. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:14, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

1. I would not really object to this. C-clerks (or whatever we call them) are former arbs and have previously been on arbcom-en in any event, so it doesn't seem that like a big deal to do this. On the other hand, I would understand if folks prefer the split. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrator discussion

• Proposed per Guerillero's comment below. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 03:24, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 2: WMF staff support

The Arbitration Committee requests that the Wikimedia Foundation Committee Support Team provide staff support for the routine administration and organization of the Committee's mailing list and non-public work.

The selected staff assistants shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work. Staff assistants shall perform their functions under the direction of the Arbitration Committee and shall not represent the Wikimedia Foundation in the course of their support work with the Arbitration Committee or disclose the Committee's internal deliberations except as directed by the Committee.

The specific responsibilities of the staff assistants shall include, as directed by the Committee:

• Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
• Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
• Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
• Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
• Providing similar routine administrative and clerical assistance to the Arbitration Committee.

The remit of staff assistants shall not include:

• Participating in the substantive consideration or decision of any matters before the Committee; or
• Taking non-routine actions requiring the exercise of arbitrator discretion.

To that end, upon the selection of staff assistants, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and staff assistants.

The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by staff assistants.

Staff assistants shall be subject to the same requirements concerning conduct and recusal as the arbitration clerk team.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

Oppose

1. I appreciate that Kevin put this together, and I think this would be very helpful, maybe even the most helpful, way to ensure that we stayed on top of the ball. But just because it would achieve one goal doesn't make it a good idea. A full version of my rationale is on the ArbList, for other Arbs. The short, WP:BEANS version is that this would destroy the line between us and the Foundation, which undoes much of our utility. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:22, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per my comment on motion 4. - Aoidh (talk) 01:31, 7 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Might as well make it formal per my opinions elsewhere on the page. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
4. I like the general idea of the WMF using its donated resources to support the community that made the donations possible. I am uncomfortable with putting WMF staff in front of ArbCom's e-mail queue, however, as this would come with unavoidable conflicts of interest and a loss of independence. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:05, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
5. The help would be useful, but the consequences would be detrimental to both ArbCom & WMF. Some space between us is necessary for ArbCom's impartiality & for the WMF's section 230 position. Cabayi (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

Motion 2: Arbitrator views and discussions

• I am quite open to this idea. A professional staff member assisting the committee might be the most reliable and consistent way to achieve this goal. ArbCom doesn't need the higher-intensity support that the WMF Committee Support Team provides other committees like AffCom and the grant committees, but having somebody to track threads and bump stalled discussions would be quite helpful. I'm going to wait to see if there's any community input on this motion before voting on it, though. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 3: Coordinating arbitrators

The Arbitration Committee's procedures are amended by adding the following section:

Coordinating arbitrators

The Arbitration Committee shall, from time to time, designate one or more arbitrators to serve as the Committee's coordinating arbitrators.

Coordinating arbitrators shall be responsible for assisting the Committee in the routine administration and organization of its mailing list and non-public work in a similar manner as the existing arbitration clerks assist in the administration of the Committee's on-wiki work.

The specific responsibilities of coordinating arbitrators shall include:

• Acknowledging the receipt of correspondence and assigning tracking identifiers to pending requests and other matters;
• Tracking the status of pending matters and providing regular updates and reminders on the status of the Committee's off-wiki work to arbitrators;
• Reminding members of the Committee to vote or otherwise take action in pending matters;
• Organizing related correspondence into case files; and
• Performing similar routine administrative and clerical functions.

A coordinating arbitrator may, but is not required to, state an intention to abstain on some or all matters before the Committee without being listed as an "inactive" arbitrator.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

1. This is currently my first-choice option; we have unofficially in the past had arbitrators take on specific roles (e.g. tracking unblock requests, responding to emails, etc) and it seemed to work fairly well. Having those rules be more "official" seems like the best way to make sure someone is responsible for these things, without needing to expand the committee or the pool of people with access to private information. Primefac (talk) 18:53, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
2. I may still vote for the clerks option, but I think this is probably the minimum of what we need. Will it be suffucient...aye, there's the rub. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:14, 5 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Of the motions proposed, this one is the one I'd most support. It doesn't expand the number of people who can view the ArbCom mailing list beyond those on ArbCom, and creates a structure that may improve how the mailing list is handled. - Aoidh (talk) 23:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Per Primefac. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Abstain

Motion 3: Arbitrator views and discussions

• I am also open to this idea, though I am worried that it will be insufficient and haven't made up my mind on my vote yet. This idea was floated by a former arbitrator from back when the committee did have a coordinating arbitrator, though that role kind of quietly faded away. The benefits of this approach include that there's no need to bring anyone else onto the list. This motion also allows (but does not require) arbs to take a step back from active arb business to focus on the coordination role, which could help with the bifurcation I mention above. Cons include that this could be the least reliable option; that it's possible no arb is interested, or has the capacity to do this well; and that it's hard to be both a coordinator on top of the existing difficult role of serving as an active arb. I personally think this is better than nothing, but probably prefer one of the other two motions to actually add some capacity. Other ideas that have been floated include establishing a subcommittee of arbitrators responsible for these functions. My same concerns would apply there, but if there's interest, I'm glad to draft and propose a motion to do that; any other arb should also feel free to propose such a motion of their own. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:28, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
• I was partial to this idea, though it was not my first choice. I proposed that we might make it a rotating position, à la the presidency of the UN security council. Alternatively, a three person subcommittee might also be the way to go, so that the position isn't dependent on one person's activity. I like this solution in general because we already basically had it, with the coordinating arbitrator role. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
  • @CaptainEek: I think your last sentence actually kind of nails why I don't love this solution? From a new person on the scene, it doesn't seem to me like trying old strategies and things we've already been doing is really going to solve a chronic problem. If there are arbs who really are willing to be the coordinators, that's better than nothing, but I haven't seen any step up yet and I'm not convinced that relying on at least one arb having the extra time and trust in every committee to do this work is sustainable. I am leaning towards voting for the scriveners motion, though, because I do love a good whimsical name theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 21:51, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    My concern with this is that if an arb already has the time and inclination you'd expect them to be filling the role, as has happened in the past. Simply formalizing the role doesn't help if no one has the motivation to do it. It's still the option I support the most out of those listed, though. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

    I think formalizing it does move the needle on someone doing it. Two possible benefits of the formalization:

• It makes clear that this is a valuable role, one that an arb should feel is a sufficient and beneficial way to spend their time. It also communicates this to the community, which might otherwise ask an arb running for reelection why they spent their time coordinating (rather than on other arb work).
• It gives "permission" for coordinating arbs to go inactive on other business if they wish.

These two benefits make this motion more than symbolic in my view. My hesitation on it remains that it may be quite insufficient relative to motion 1. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:18, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Motion 4: Grants for correspondence clerks

In the event that "Motion 1: Correspondence clerks" passes, the Arbitration Committee shall request that the Wikimedia Foundation provide grants payable to correspondence clerks in recognition of their assistance to the Committee.

For this motion there are 10 active arbitrators. With 0 arbitrators abstaining, 6 support or oppose votes are a majority.

Support

Oppose

1. Misplaced Pages should remain a volunteer activity. If we cannot find volunteers to do the task, then perhaps it ought not be done in the first place. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:09, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. We should not have a clerk paid by the WMF handling English Misplaced Pages matters in this capacity. - Aoidh (talk) 01:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
3. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 19:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Abstain

Motion 4: Arbitrator views and discussions

• Proposing for discussion; thanks to voorts for the idea. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:00, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

  I am leaning no on this motion. The potential downsides of this plan do seem to outweigh the benefit of being able to compensate a correspondence clerk for what will ultimately likely be something like 5 hours a week at most. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:13, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Community discussion

Will correspondence clerks be required to sign an NDA? Currently clerks aren't. Regardless of what decision is made this should probably be in the motion. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:29, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Good catch. I thought it was implied by "from among the English Misplaced Pages functionary corps" – who all sign NDAs as a condition to access functionaries-en and the CUOS tools; see Misplaced Pages:Functionaries (Functionary access requires that the user sign the confidentiality agreement for nonpublic information.)  – but I've made it explicit now. KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 18:31, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

You're right that that was there, but I missed it on my first readthrough of the rules (thinking correspondence clerks would be appointed from the clerk team instead). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 18:37, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Why does "coordinating arbitrators" need a (public) procedures change? Izno (talk) 18:34, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

As Primefac mentioned above, it seems reasonable to assume that having something written down "officially" might help make sure that the coordinating arbitrator knows what they are responsible for. In any event, it probably can't hurt. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

It is a pain in the ass to get formal procedures changed. There is an internal procedures page: I see 0 reason not to use it if you want to clarify what the role of this arbitrator is. Izno (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

On top of that, this doesn't actually change the status quo much if at all. It is almost entirely a role definition for an internal matter, given "we can make an arb a CA, but we don't have to have one" in it's "from time to time" clause. This just looks like noise to anyone reading ARBPRO who isn't on ArbCom: the public doesn't need to know this arb even exists, though they might commonly be the one responding to emails so they might get a sense there is such an arb. Izno (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

While I appreciate that some functionaries are open to volunteering for this role, this borders on is a part-time secretarial job and ought to be compensated as such. The correspondence clerks option combined with WMF throwing some grant money towards compensation would be my ideal. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this suggestion – I've added motion 4 to address this suggestion. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

In the first motion the word "users" in "The Committee shall establish a process to allow users to, in unusual circumstances" is confusing, it should probably be "editors". In the first and second motions, it should probably be explicit whether correspondence clerks/support staff are required, permitted or prohibited to:

• Share statistical information publicly
• Share status information (publicly or privately) with correspondents who wish to know the status of their request.
• Share status information (publicly or privately) about the status of a specific request with someone other than the correspondent.

  For this I'm thinking of scenarios like where e.g. an editor publicly says they emailed the Committee about something a while ago, and one or more other editors asks what is happening with it.

I think my preference would be for 1 or 2, as these seem likely to be the more reliable. Neither option precludes there also being a coordinating arbitrator doing some of the tasks as well. Thryduulf (talk) 18:49, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these suggestions. I've changed "users" to "editors". The way I'm intending these motions to be read, correspondence clerks or staff assistants should only disclose information as directed by the committee. I think the details of which information should be shared upon whose request in routine cases could be decided later by the committee, with the default being "ask ArbCom before disclosing until the committee decides to approve routine disclosures in certain cases", because it's probably hard to know in advance which categories will be important to allow. I'm open to including more detail if you think that's important to include at this stage, though, and I'd welcome hearing why if so. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 19:08, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I see your point, but I think it worth clarifying certain things in advance before they become an issue to avoid unrealistic or mistaken expectations of the c-clerks by the community. Point 1 doesn't need to be specified in advance, maybe something like "communicating information publicly as directed by the Committee" would be useful to say in terms of expectation management or maybe it's still to specific? I can see both sides of that.

Point 2 I think is worth establishing quickly and while it is on people's minds. Waiting for the committee to make up its mind before knowing whether they can give a full response to a correspondent about this would be unfair to both the correspondent and clerk I think. This doesn't necessarily have to be before adoption, but if not it needs to be very soon afterwards.

Point 3 is similar, but c-clerks and community members knowing exactly what can and cannot be shared, and especially being able to point to something in writing about what cannot be said publicly, has the potential to reduce drama e.g. if there is another situation similar to Billed Mammal's recent case request. Thryduulf (talk) 19:30, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

What justification is there for the WMF to spend a single additional dollar on the workload of a project-specific committee whose workload is now demonstrably smaller than at any time in its history? (Noting here that there is a real dollar-cost to the support already being given by WMF, such as the monthly Arbcom/T&S calls that often result in the WMF accepting requests for certain activities.) And anyone who is being paid by the WMF is responsible to the WMF as the employer, not to English Misplaced Pages Arbcom.

I think Arbcom is perhaps not telling the community some very basic facts that are leading to their efforts to find someone to take responsibility for its organization, which might include "we have too many members who aren't pulling their weight" or "we have too many members who, for various reasons that don't have to do with Misplaced Pages, are inactive", or "we have some tasks that nobody really wants to do". There's no indication that any of these solutions would solve these kinds of problems, and I think that all of these issues are factors that are clearly visible to those who follow Arbcom on even an occasional basis. Arbitrators who are inactive for their own reasons aren't going to become more active because someone's organizing their mail. Arbitrators who don't care enough to vote on certain things aren't any more likely to vote if someone is reminding them to vote in a non-public forum; there's no additional peer pressure or public guilt-tripping. And if Arbcom continues to have tasks that nobody really wants to do, divest those tasks. Arbcom has successfully done that with a large number of tasks that were once its responsibility.

I think you can do a much better job of making your case. Risker (talk) 20:05, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a need to do something as poor communication and extremely slow replies, if replies are made at all, has been an ongoing issue for the committee for some time. However I agree that asking the foundation to pay someone to do it is going too far. The point that if you are paid by the foundation, you work for them and not en.wp or arbcom is a compelling one. There's also a slippery slope argument to be made in that if we're paying these people, shouldn't we pay the committee? If we're paying the committee, shouldn't we pay the arbitration clerks....and so on. Just Step Sideways 20:26, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

I fully share Risker's concern about a paid WMF staffer who, no matter how well-intentioned, will be answerable to the WMF and not ARBCOM. Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:55, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

The 2023-2024 committee is much more middle aged and has less university students and retirees, who oftentimes have more free time, than the 2016-2017 committee. -- Guerillero 08:56, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that the issue of there often being some Committee members who, for whatever reason, are not "pulling their weight", is at the core of the problem to be addressed here. Because this happens "behind the scenes", the community has no way to hold anyone accountable in elections, and because of human nature and the understandable desire to maintain a collegial atmosphere within the Committee, I don't really expect any members to call out a colleague in public. I suppose there could even be a question of what happens if whoever might be filling the role proposed here nudges a member to act, but the member just disregards that. It's difficult to see how to make it enforceable. I don't have any real solutions, but this strikes me as central to the problem. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this is largely correct. I was reluctant on the committee to even note this committee's inactivity problem (worst of any 15-member arbcom ever), even though it was based on a metric that is public, when I was still on the committee. And it gets further complicated by the fact that some people not visibly active in public more than pull their weight behind the scenes - the testimonials Maxim received when running for re-election being a prime example. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:00, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

During my first term it was Roger Davies. He was barely a presence on-wiki but he kept the whole committee on point and up-to-date about what was pending. Trypto is right that it isn't enforceable, it is more a matter of applying pressure to either do the job or move oneself to the inactive list.

I also think the committee can and should be more proactive about declaring other arbs inactive even when they are otherwise present on-wiki or on the mailing list" That would probably require a procedures change, but I think it would make sense. If there is a case request, proposed decision, or other matter that requires a vote before the committee and an arb doesn't comment on it for ten days or more, they clearly don't have the time and/or inclination to do so and should be declared inactive on that matter so that their lack of action does not further delay the matter. It would be nice if they would just do so themselves, or just vote "abstain" on everything, which only takes a few minutes, but it seems it has not been happening in practice. Just Step Sideways 00:14, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And Roger was a pensioner which kinda proves my point -- Guerillero 08:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Roger may have been a pensioner at the end of his time on the committee (7 years), but he certainly wasn't at the beginning of his term. He was co-ordinating arbitrator for a lot of that time, and did a good job without a single bit of extra software. The problem with that software is that people have to already be actively engaged to even contemplate using it. My sense is that the real issue here is the lack of engagement (whether periodic or chronic) on the part of many of the arbitrators. People who are inactive on Arbcom tasks aren't going to be active on any tasks, including reading emails asking them to do things or special software sending alerts. Simply put, if people aren't going to put Arbcom as their primary Misplaced Pages activity for the next two years, keeping in mind other life events that will likely take them away, they should not run in the first place. Yes, unexpected things happen. But I think a lot of the inactivity we've seen in the last few years involved some predictable absences that the arbs knew about when they were candidates. (Examples I've seen myself: Oh, I have a big exam to write that needs months of study; oh, I have a major life event that will require a lot of planning; oh, I'm graduating and will have to find a job.) No, I don't expect people to reveal this kind of information about themselves; yes, I do expect them to refrain from volunteering for roles that they can reasonably foresee they will have difficulty fulfilling. Risker (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I might as well ask a hard question. Is there a way to make public enough information for the community to be able to evaluate ArbCom candidates for (re)election, in terms of behind-the-scenes inactivity? If individual Arbs were to make public comments, that would do it, but it would also potentially be very contentious and could reduce effectiveness instead of improving it. Could ArbCom initiate a new process of posting onsite information about the processing of tasks, without revealing private information (such as: "Ban appeal 1", "Ban appeal 2", instead of "Ban appeal by "), and list those members who voted (perhaps without listing which way they voted)? Maybe do that monthly, and include all tasks that had not yet gotten a quorum. Yes, I know that's difficult. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I question an answer to the problem of "we're having trouble finding enough people to do the secretarial work we have already" being "let's create substantially more secretarial work" even accepting the premise that people would then get voted off if they didn't pull their weight. While I think that premise is correct, what this system would also encourage - even more than it already exists - is an incentive to just go along with whatever the first person (or the person who has clearly done the most homework) says. And that defeats the purpose of having a committee made up of individual thinkers. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 20:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair point. I'll admit that, even from the outside, I sometimes see members who appear to wait to see which way the wind is blowing before voting on proposed decisions. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:59, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

That's something that's hard to know or verify, even for the other arbs. The arbs only know what the other arbs tell them, and I've never seen anyone admit to that. Just Step Sideways 23:44, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the timing for this is wrong. The committee is about to have between 6 and 9 new members (depending on whether Guerillero, Eek, and Primefac get re-elected). In addition it seems likely that some number of former arbs are about to rejoin the committee. This committee - basically the committee with the worst amount of active membership of any 15 member committee ever - seems like precisely the wrong one to be making large changes to ongoing workflows in December. Izno's idea of an easier to try and easier to change/abandon internal procedure for the coordinating arb feels like something appropriate to try now. The rest feel like it should be the prerogative of the new committee to decide among (or perhaps do a different change altogether). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Kevin can correct me if I'm wrong, but I assumed he was doing this now because he will not be on the committee a month from now.

That being said it could be deliberately held over, or conversely, possibly fall victim to the inactivity you mention and still be here for the new committee to decide. Just Step Sideways 23:12, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

Since WP:ACE2024 elections are currently taking place it makes sense to have the incoming arbitrators weigh in on changes like this. They are the ones that will be affected by any of these motions passing rather than the outgoing arbitrators. - Aoidh (talk) 00:27, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh I assumed that's why he was doing it also. I am also assuming he's doing it to try and set up the future committees for success. That doesn't change my point about why this is the wrong time and why a different way of trying the coordinator role (if it has support) would be better. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding "timing is wrong": I think you both would agree that these are a long time coming – we have been working on these and related ideas for years (I ran on a related idea in 2022). I do think there's never quite a good time. Very plausibly, the first half of the year is out because the new arbs will need that time to learn how the processes work and think about what kinds of things should be changed vs. kept the same. And then it might be another few months as the new ArbCom experiments with less-consequential changes like the ones laid about at the top: technological solutions, trying new ways of tracking stuff, etc., before being confident in the need for something like set out above. And then things get busy for other reasons; there will be weeks or even occasionally months when the whole committee is overtaken by some urgent situation. I've experienced a broadly similar dynamic a few times now; this is all to say that there's just not much time or space in the agenda for this kind of stuff in a one-year cycle, which would be a shame because I do think this is important to take on.
I do think that it should be the aspiration of every year's committee to leave the succeeding committee some improvements in the functioning of the committee based on lessons learned that year, so it would be nice to leave the next committee with this. That said, if arbitrators do feel that we should hold this over to the new committee, I'm not really in a position to object – as JSS says, this is my last year on the committee, so it's not like this will benefit me. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it's entirely possible for the new committee to have a sense of what it wants workload wise by February-April and so it's wrong to just rule out the first half of the year. By the end of the first six months of the year that you and I started (and which JSS was a sitting member on) we'd made a number of changes to how things were done. Off the top of my head I can name the structure of cases and doing quarterly reports of private appeals as two but there were others. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:47, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Here's what I'll leave you with overall. What you may see as a downside – these proposals being voted on relatively late in the year – I see as a significant possible upside. Members of this committee are able to draw on at least eleven months' experience as arbitrators in deciding what is working well and what might warrant change – experience which is important in determining what kinds of processes and systems lead to effective and ineffective outcomes. That experience is important: Although I have served on ArbCom for four years and before that served as an ArbCom clerk for almost six years, I still learn more every year about what makes this committee click. If what really concerns you is locking in the new committee to a particular path, as I wrote above, I'm very open to structuring this as a trial run that will end of its own accord unless the committee takes action to make it permanent. This would ensure that the new committee retains full control over whether to continue, discontinue, or adapt these changes. But in my book, it does not make sense to wait. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 22:58, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

• As a 3-term former arb and a 3-term current ombuds commissioner, I've had experience of about a dozen Wikimedia committee "new intakes". I am quite convinced that these proposals are correctly timed. Process changes are better put in place prior to new appointees joining, so that they are not joining at a moment of upheaval. Doing them late in the day is not objectionable and momentum often comes at the end of term. If the changes end up not working (doubtful), the new committee would just vote to tweak the process or go back. I simply do not understand the benefit of deferring proposals into a new year, adding more work to the next year's committee. That surely affects the enthusiasm and goodwill of new members. As for the point that the '24 committee is understaffed and prone to indecision: argumentum ad hominem. If Kevin's proposals work, they work. If anything, it might be more difficult to agree administrative reforms when the committee is back at full staff. arcticocean ■ 15:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  If these pass now you will have new members join at a moment of upheaval as anything proposed here will still be in its infancy when the new members join (even if we pretend the new members are joining Jan 1 rather than much sooner given that results are in and new members tend to be added to the list once the right boxes are checked). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 15:55, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  You're right. And it's important to be realistic: any proposal would be under implementation for several months, so say from December through February. Would that be so bad? Any change will disrupt, in the sense that a few people need to spend time implementing it and everyone else needs to learn the new process. But waiting until later in the year causes even more disruption: members have to first learn an 'old' process and then learn the changes you're making to it… New member enthusiasm is also a keen force that could help to push through the changes. arcticocean ■ 16:28, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  I think new member enthusiasm is part of why I think this lame duck hobbled committee is the wrong one to do it. I have high hopes for next year's group and think they would be in a better place to come up with the right solution for them. And as I noted to Kevin above this isn't hypothetical - the year we both started as arbs we made a lot of process and procedure changes in the first six months. It was a great thing to funnel that new arb energy into because I was bought into what we were doing rather than trying to make something work that I had no say in and that the existing members had no experience with. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:34, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

  While I think a solution such as adopting ZenDesk is something that could face objections, personally I think the idea of having someone track a list of work items for a committee is a pretty standard way of working (including pushing for timely resolution, something that really needs a person, not just a program). From an outsider's perspective, it's something I'd expect. It doesn't matter to non-arbitrators who does the tracking, so the committee should feel free to change that decision internally as often as it feels is effective. I'd rather there be a coordinating arbitrator in place in the interim until another solution is implemented, than have no one tracking work items in the meantime. isaacl (talk) 19:30, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Just to double check that I'm reading motion 1 correctly, it would still be possible to email the original list (for arbitrators only) if, for example, you were raising a concern about something the correspondence clerks should not be privy to (ie: misuse of tools by a functionary), correct? Granted, I think motion 3 is probably the simpler option here, but in the event motion 1 passes, is the understanding I wrote out accurate? EggRoll97 02:15, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@EggRoll97 Yes, but probably only after an additional step. The penultimate paragraph of motions 1 and 2 says The Committee shall establish a process to allow editors to, in unusual circumstances following a showing of good cause, directly email a mailing list accessible only by arbitrators and not by correspondence clerks . No details are given about what this process would be, but one possibility would I guess be something like contacting an individual arbitrator outlining clearly why you think the c-clerks should not be privy to whatever it is. If they agree they'll tell you how to submit your evidence (maybe they'll add your email address to a temporary whitelist). Thryduulf (talk) 03:01, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In my experience working on committees and for non-profits, typically management is much more open to offering money for software solutions that they are told can resolve a problem than agreeing to pay additional compensation for new personnel. Are you sure there isn't some tracking solution that could resolve some of these problems? Liz 07:20, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

In our tentative discussions with WMF, it sounded like it would be much more plausible to get a 0.1-0.2 FTE of staffer time than it would to get us 15 ZenDesk licenses, which was also somewhat surprising to me. That wasn't a firm response – if we went back and said we really need this, I'm guessing it'd be plausible. And we've never asked about compensating c-clerks – that was an idea that came from Voorts's comment above, and I proposed it for discussion, not because I necessarily support it but because I think it's worth discussion, and I certainly don't think it's integral to the c-clerk proposal. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 15:00, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, offering compensation for on-wiki tasks would be breaking new ground for the project. I do wonder though about the possibility of securing former arbitrators for these correspondent clerks' positions. It sounds like all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results. I don't know if we'd have many interested and eligible parties. How many clerks would you think would be necessary? One? Or 3 or 4? Liz 21:40, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, these are great questions. Responses to your points:

• On volunteers: As I wrote above, four functionaries (including three former arbs) expressed initial-stage interest when this was floated when I consulted functionaries – which is great and was a bit unexpected, and which is why I wrote it up this way. Arbitrators will know that my initial plan from previous months/years did not involve limiting this to functionaries, to have a broader pool of applicants. But since we do have several interested functs, and they are already trusted to hold NDA'd private information (especially the former arbs who have previously been elected to access to this very list), I thought this would be a good way to make this a more uncontroversial proposal.
• How many to appoint? I imagine one or two if it was up to me. One would be ideal (I think it's like 30 minutes of work per day ish, max), but two for redundancy might make a lot of sense. I don't think it's all of the work of an arbitrator (or more) without any ability to influence the results – because the c-clerk would be responsible for tracking matters, not actually attempting to resolve them, that's a lot less work than serving as an arb. It does require more consistency than most arbs have to put in, though.
• On compensating: Yeah, I'm not sure I'll end up supporting the idea, but I don't think it's unprecedented in the sense that you're thinking. Correspondence clerks aren't editing; none of the tasks listed in the motion require on-wiki edits. And there are plenty of WMF grants that have gone to off-wiki work for the benefit of projects; the first example I could think of was m:Grants:Programs/Wikimedia Community Fund/Rapid Fund/UTRS User Experience Development (ID: 22215192) but I know there are many.

Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 21:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

I am quite confused, I often read arbs saying most of ArbCom work is behind-the-scenes work. But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work? If so, the solution here is that more arbs should simply pull their weight, which Motion 3 helps. I don't think WMF would pay someone to work 30 minutes a day either. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:19, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

But is all this behind-the-scenes work essentially just a one-person 30-minute-a-day work?. No, the actual work takes a lot more time and effort because each arb has to read, understand and form opinions on many different things, and the committee needs to discuss most of those things, which will often re-reading and re-evaluating based on the points raised. Then in many cases there needs to be a vote. What the "one-person, 30 minutes a day" is referring to is just the meta of what tasks are open, what the current status of it is, who needs to opine on it, etc. Thryduulf (talk) 11:31, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I realized I misunderstood it. I see that this is a relatively lightweight proposal, perhaps it could work but it probably won't help much either.

@L235 I have been thinking of splitting ArbCom into Public ArbCom and Private ArbCom. I see Public ArbCom as being able to function without the tools as @Worm That Turned advocated, focused more on complex dispute resolution. I see Private ArbCom as high-trust roles with NDAs, privy to WMF and overseeing Public ArbCom. Both ArbComs are elected separately as 15-members bodies, and both will be left with about half the current authority and responsibility. Kenneth Kho (talk) 01:54, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Thryduulf is right; I think Kevin meant that the tracking itself might be a 30 minute a day activity. But it has to happen consistently, and with a high catch rate. It also has to happen on top of our usual Arb work, which for me already averages a good ten hours a week, but can be more than twenty hours in the busy times. And I, like the other arbs, already have a full time job and a life outside Misplaced Pages. I don't like the idea of splitting ArbCom in twain, nor do I think it could be achieved. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:18, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, having someone managing the work could really help smooth things out. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:36, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

My first thought is that cleanly splitting arbcom would be very difficult. For example what happens if there is an open public case and two-thirds of the way through the evidence phase someone discovers and wishes to submit private evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 02:31, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, the split won't be entirely clean. I'm thinking Public ArbCom would narrowly remand part of the case to Private ArbCom if it finds that the private evidence is likely to materially affect the outcome. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:34, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

How will public know whether the private evidence will materially affect the outcome without seeing the private evidence? Secondly, how will private arbcom determine whether it materially affects the outcome without reviewing all the public evidence and thus duplicating public arbcom's work (and thus also negating the workload benefits of the split)? What happens if public and private arbcom come to different conclusions about the same public evidence? Thryduulf (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

You raised good points that I did not address. I think that a way to do this would be to follow how Oversighters have the authority to override Admins that they use sparingly. Private ArbCom could have the right to receive any private evidence regarding an ongoing case on Public ArbCom, and Private ArbCom will have discretions to override Public ArbCom remedies without explanation other than something like "per private evidence". Private ArbCom would need to familiarize themselves with the case a bit, but this is mitigated by the fact that they only concerned with the narrow parts. Private ArbCom could have the authority to take the whole Public ArbCom case private if it deems that private evidence affect many parties. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

12 candidates for 9 open seats is sufficient. But it hardly suggests we have so many people that we could support 30 people (even presuming some additional people would run under the split). Further, what happens behind the scenes already strains the trust of the community. But at least the community can see the public actions as a reminder of "well this person hasn't lost it completely while on ArbCom". I think it would be much harder to sustain trust under this split. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:35, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I honestly like the size of 12-member committee, too many proverbial cooks spoil the proverbial broth. I did think about the trust aspect, as the community has been holding ArbCom under scrutiny, but at the same time I consider that the community has been collegial with Bureaucrats, Checkusers, Oversighters. Private ArbCom would be far less visible, with Public ArbCom likely taking the heat for contentious decisions. Kenneth Kho (talk) 11:40, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree with L235 regarding whether this is all the work and none of the authority: it does not come with all the responsibility that being an Arb comes with either. This role does not need to respond to material questions or concerns about arbitration matters and does not need to read and weigh the voluminous case work to come to a final decision. The c-clerk will need to keep up on emails and will probably need to have an idea of what's going on in public matters, but that was definitely not the bulk of the (stressful?) work of an arbitrator. Izno (talk) 00:26, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@Liz well that's what I thought. I figured that ZenDesk was the winningest solution, until the Foundation made it seem like ZenDesk licenses were printed on gold bars. We did do some back of the envelope calculations, and it is decidedly expensive. Still...I have a hard time believing those ZenDesk licenses really cost more than all that staff time. I think we'll have to do some more convincing of the Foundation on that front, or implement a different solution. CaptainEek ⚓ 01:29, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I touched upon the idea of using former arbitrators to do administrative tasks on the arbitration committee talk page, and am also pleasantly surprised to hear there is some interest. I think this approach may be the most expeditious way to put something in place at least for the interim. (On a side note, I urge people not to let the term "c-clerk" catch on. It sounds like stuttering, or someone not good enough to be an A-level clerk. More importantly, it would be quite an obscure jargon term.) isaacl (talk) 23:18, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

To that end, upon the first appointment of correspondence clerks, the current arbcom-en mailing list shall be renamed to arbcom-en-internal, which shall continue to be accessible only by arbitrators, and a new arbcom-en email list shall be established. The subscribers to the new arbcom-en list shall be the arbitrators and correspondence clerks.

Something I raised in the functionary discussion was that this doesn't make sense to me. What is the basis for this split here? Izno (talk) 00:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I assumed it was so that the clerks would only see the incoming email and not be privy to the entire commitee's comments on the matter. While all functionaries and arbs sign the same NDA, operating on a need to know basis is not at all uncommon in groups that deal with sensitive information. When I worked for the census we had to clear our debriefing room of literally everything because it was being used the next day by higher-ups from Washington who were visiting. They outranked all of us by several orders of mgnitude, but they had no reason to be looking at the non-anonymized personal data we had lying all over the place.

Conversely it would spare the clerks from having their inboxes flooded by every single arb comment, which as you know can be quite voluminous. Just Step Sideways 00:23, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

And it would also prevent them from seeing information related to themselves or something they should actively recuse on. Thryduulf (talk) 01:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

This suggested rationale doesn't hold water: someone with an issue with a c-clerk or where they may need to recuse should just follow the normal process for an issue with an arb: to whit, kicking off arbcom-b for a private discussion. Izno (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking of material from before they were appointed, e.g. if there was a discussion involving the actions of user:Example in November and they become a c-clerk in December, they shouldn't be able to see the discussion even if the only comments were that the allegations against them are obviously ludicrous. I appreciate I didn't make this clear though. Thryduulf (talk) 02:35, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Making arbcom-en a "firewall" from the arb deliberations would inhibit the c-clerk from performing the duties listed in the motion. I cannot see how it would be workable for them to remind arbs to do the thing the electorate voluntold them to do if the c-clerk cannot see whether they have done those things (e.g. coming to a conclusion on an appeal), and would add to the overhead of introducing this secretarial position (email comes in, c-clerk forwards to -internal, arbs discussion on -internal, come to conclusion, send an email back to -en, which the c-clerk then actions back to the user on arbcom-en). This suggested rationale also does not hold water to me. Izno (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Apologies – if this was the interpretation, that's bad drafting on my part. The sole intention is that the new correspondence clerks won't see the past arbcom-en archives, which were emails sent to the committee on the understanding that only arbitrators would see those emails. C clerks will see everything that's newly sent on arbcom-en, including all deliberations held on arbcom-en, with the exception of anything that is so sensitive that the committee feels the need to restrict discussion to arbitrators (this should be fairly uncommon but covers the recusal concern above in a similar way as discussions about arbs who recuse sometimes get moved to arbcom-en-b). The C clerks will need to be able to see deliberations to be able to track pending matters and ensure that balls aren't being dropped, which could not happen unless they had access to the discussions – this is a reasonable "need to know" because they are fulfilling a function that is hard to combine with serving as an active arbitrator. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 01:54, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, I clearly totally misread your intent there. I.... don't think I like the idea that unelected clerks can see everything the committee is doing. Just Step Sideways 03:15, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I oppose splitting arbcom-en a second time -- Guerillero 10:17, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Regarding 1.4, I think arbcom-en and -c are good ones for a c-clerk to have access to. -b probably doesn't need access ever, as it's used exclusively for work with recusals attached to it, which should be small enough for ArbCom to manage itself in the addition of a c-clerk. (This comment in private elicited the slight rework L235 made to the motion.) Izno (talk) 06:08, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

What does this mean – when was the first time? arcticocean ■ 15:52, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Arcticocean: In 2018, arbcom-l became arbcom-en and the archives are in two different places. -- Guerillero 18:54, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Appointing one of the sitting arbitrators as "Coordinating Arbitrator" (motion 3) would be my recommended first choice of solution. We had a Coordinating Arbitrator—a carefully chosen title, as opposed to something like "Chair"—for a few years some time ago. It worked well, although it was not a panacea, and I frankly don't recollect why the coordinator role was dropped at some point. If there is a concern about over-reliance or over-burden on any one person, the role could rotate periodically (although I would suggest a six-month term to avoid too much time being spent on the mechanics of selecting someone and transitioning from one coordinator to the next). At any given time there should be at least one person on a 15-member Committee with the time and the skill-set to do the necessary record-keeping and nudging in addition to arbitrating, and this solution would avoid the complications associated with bringing another person onto the mailing list. I think there would be little community appetite for involving a WMF staff member (even one who is or was also an active Wikipedian) in the Committee's business; and if we are going to set the precedent of paying someone to handle tasks formerly handled by volunteers, with all due respect to the importance of ArbCom this is not where I would start. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:32, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. Regarding little community appetite – that is precisely why we are inviting community input here on this page, as one way to assess how the community feels about the various options. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 02:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I also like the idea of an arb or two taking on this role more than another layer of clerks. I'm sure former arbs would be great at it but the committee needs to handle its own internal business. Just Step Sideways 03:37, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I think it is ideal for the arbitration committee to track its own work items and prompt its members for timely action, and may have written this some time ago on-wiki. However... years have passed now, and the arbitration committee elections aren't well-suited to selecting arbitrators with the requisite skill set (even if recruitment efforts were made, the community can only go by the assurance of the candidate regarding the skills they possess and the time they have available). So I think it's worth looking at the option of keeping an arbitrator involved in an emeritus position if they have shown the aptitude and availability to help with administration. This could be an interim approach, until another solution is in place (maybe there can be more targeted recruiting of specific editors who, by their ongoing Misplaced Pages work, have demonstrated availability and tracking ability). isaacl (talk) 18:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

2 and 4 don't seem like very good ideas to me. For 2, I think we need to maintain a firm distinction between community and WMF entities, and not do anything that even looks like blending them together. For 4, every time you involve money in something, you multiply your potential problems by a factor of at least ten (and why should that person get paid, when other people who contribute just as much time doing other things don't, and when, for that matter, even the arbs themselves don't?). For 1, I could see that being a good idea, to take some clerical/"grunt work" load off of ArbCom and give them more time for, well, actually arbitrating, and functionaries will all already have signed the NDA. I don't have any problem with 3, but don't see why ArbCom can't just do it if they want to; all the arbs already have access to the information in question so it's not like someone is being approved to see it who can't already. Seraphimblade 01:49, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

@CaptainEek: Following up on your comments on motion 1, depending on which aspect of the proposed job one wanted to emphasize, you could also consider "amanuensis," "registrar," or "receptionist." (The best on-wiki title in my opinion, though we now are used to it so the irony is lost, will always be "bureaucrat"; I wonder who first came up with that one.) Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:49, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Or "cat-herder". --Tryptofish (talk) 00:18, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Following parliamentary tradition, perhaps "whip". (Less whimsically: "recording secretary".) isaacl (talk) 00:31, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad:, if memory serves @Keegan: knows who came up with it, and as I recall the story was that they wanted to come up with the most boring, unappealing name they could so not too many people would be applying for it all the time. Just Step Sideways 05:03, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

So, just to usher in a topic-specific discussion because it has been alluded to many times without specifics being given, what was the unofficial position of ArbCom coordinator like? Who held this role? How did it function? Were other arbitrators happy with it? Was the Coordinator given time off from other arbitrator responsibilities? I assume this happened when an arbitrator just assumed the role but did it have a more formal origin? Did it end because no one wanted to pick up the responsibility? Questions, questions. Liz 06:56, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I cannot speak for anything but my term. I performed this role for about 1.5 years of the 2 I was on the committee. To borrow an email I sent not long before I stepped off that touches on the topics in this whole set of motions (yes, this discussion isn't new):

• Daily, ~20 minutes: went into the list software and tagged the day's incoming new email chains with a label (think "upe", "duplicate", etc).
• Daily, ~10 minutes: took care of any filtered emails on the list (spam and not-spam).
• Monthly, 1-2 hours: trawled the specific categories of tags since the beginning of the month to add to an arbwiki page for tracking for "needs to get done". Did the inverse also (removed stuff from tracking that seemed either Done or Stale).
• Monthly, 15 minutes to prep: sent an email with a direct list of the open appeals and a reminder about the "needs doing" stuff (and a few months I highlighted a topic or two that were easy wins). This built off the daily work in a way that would be a long time if it were all done monthly instead of daily.

I was also an appeals focused admin, which had further overhead here that I would probably put in the responsibility of this kind of arb. Other types of arbs probably had similar things they would have wanted to do this direction but I saw very little of such. Daily for this effort, probably another 15 minutes or so:

• I copy-pasted appeal metadata from new appeals email to arbwiki
• Started countdown timers for appeals appearing to be at consensus
• Sent "easy" boilerplate emails e.g. "we got this appeal, we may be in touch" or "no way Jose you already appealed a month ago"
• Sent results for the easy appeals post-countdown timer and filled in relevant metadata (easy appeals here usually translated to "declined" since this was the quick-n-easy daily work frame, not the long-or-hard daily work frame)

(End extract from referenced email.) This second set is now probably a much-much lighter workload with the shedding of most CU appeals this year (which was 70% of the appeals by count during my term), and I can't say how much of this second group would be in the set of duties depending on which motion is decided above (or if even none of the motions are favored by the committee - you can see I've advocated for privately documenting the efforts of coordinating arbs rather than publicly documenting them regarding 3, and it wouldn't take much to get me to advocate against 2 and 4, I just know others can come to the right-ish conclusion on those two already; I'm pretty neutral on 1).

Based on the feedback I got as I was going out the door, it was appreciated. I did see some feedback that this version of the role was insufficiently personal to each arb. The tradeoff for doing something more personalized to each other arb is either time or software (i.e. money). I did sometimes occasionally call out when other members had not yet chimed in on discussions. That was ad hoc and mostly focused on onwiki matters (case votes particularly), but occasionally I had to name names when doing appeals work because the arbs getting to the appeal first were split. In general the rest of the committee didn't name names (which touches on some discussion above). I think some arbs appreciated seeing their name in an email when they were needed.

I was provided no formal relief from other matters. But as I discussed with one arb during one of the stressful cases of the term, I did provide relief informally for the duration of that case to that person for the stuff I was interested in, so I assume that either I in fact had no relief from other matters, or that I had relief but didn't know it (and just didn't ask for anyone else to do it - since I like to think I had it well enough in hand). :-) The committee is a team effort and not everyone on the team has the same skills, desire, or time to see to all other matters. (The probing above about arbs being insufficiently active is a worthwhile probe, to be certain.) To go further though, I definitely volunteered to do this work. Was it necessary work? I think so. I do not know what would have happened if I had not been doing it. (We managed to hit only one public snag related to timeliness during my term, which I count as a win; opinions may differ.)

There is no formal origin to the role that I know of. Someone else with longer committee-memory would have to answer whether all/recent committees have had this type, and who they were, and why if not.

I don't know how much of what I did lines up with what L235 had in mind proposing these motions. I do not think the work I did covers everything listed in the motions laid out. (I don't particularly need clarification on the point - it's a matter that will fall out in post-motion discussion.) Izno (talk) 08:48, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

The original announcement of the Coordinating Arbitrator position was here. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:29, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Archive zero: I love it! --Tryptofish (talk) 21:37, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Interestingly, that announcement also repeated the announcement at the top of the archive page that a departing arbitrator continued to assist the committee by co-ordinating the mailing list: acknowledging incoming emails and responding to senders with questions about them, and tracking issues to ensure they are resolved. So both a co-ordinator (plus a deputy!) and an arbitrator emeritus. isaacl (talk) 23:23, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

former arbitrator will continue to coordinate the ArbCom mailing list. was probably a statement along the lines of "knows how to deal with Mailman". And I think you're getting that role mixed up with the actual person doing the work management: the Arbitration Committee has decided to appoint one of its sitting arbitrators to act as coordinator (emphasis mine). Izno (talk) 23:46, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Obviously I have no personal knowledge of what ended up happening. I just listed the responsibilities as described at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Noticeboard/Archive 0 § Improving ArbCom co-ordination. I'm not sure what I'm getting mixed up; all I said is that a co-ordinator and deputy were appointed, and that a former arbitrator was said to be co-ordinating the mailing list. It's certainly possible the split of duties changed from the first post in the archive. isaacl (talk) 00:01, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see that now. Izno (talk) 00:04, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

I think I agree with Izno regarding the coordinating arbitrator role. There's no problem letting the community that the role exists, but I don't think it's necessary for the role's responsibilities to be part of the public-facing guarantees being made to the community. If the role needs to expand, shrink, split into multiple roles, or otherwise change, the committee should feel free to just do it as needed. The committee has the flexibility to organize itself as it best sees fit. isaacl (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

I think this is the right approach. It doesn't need to be advertised who is coordinating activity on the mailing list, it just needs to get done. If it takes two people, fine, if they do it for six months and say they want out of the role, ask somebody else to do it. And so on. Just Step Sideways 23:50, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

For instance, I don't think it's necessary to codify whether or not the coordinating arbitrator role is permanent. Just put a task on the schedule to review how the role is working out in nine months, and then modify the procedure accordingly as desired. isaacl (talk) 23:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

One exception: the first bullet point regarding responding to communications and assigning a tracking identifier does involve the committee's interactions with the community. I feel, though, that for flexibility these guarantees can be made without codifying who does them, from the community's point of view. (It's fine of course to make them part of the coordinating arbitrator's tasks.) isaacl (talk) 23:41, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Izno, this actually sounds like a helluva lot of work, maybe not minute-wise but mental, keeping track of everything so requests don't fall through the cracks. I think anyone assuming this role should get a break from, say, drafting ARBCOM cases if nothing else. Liz 03:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

It might be a lot of work, but it wasn't the bulk of the work, even for the work that I was doing. There was a lot more steps to being the appeal-focused admin above. Izno (talk) 04:02, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

You made me laugh, Liz. That sounds like my normal start-of-day routine, to be accompanied by a cup of tea and, perhaps, a small breakfast. I'd expect most arbitrators to be reading the mail on a daily basis, unless they are inactive for some reason; the difference here is the tagging/flagging of messages and clearing the filters, which probably adds about 10-12 minutes. I'll simply say that any arb who isn't prepared to spend 30-45 minutes/day reading emails probably shouldn't be an arb. That's certainly a key part of the role. Risker (talk) 04:43, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

+1. In my thoughts to potential candidates I said an hour a day for emails but that included far more appeals than the committee gets now. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:47, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Never mind reading emails, the bulk of my private ArbCom time was spent on processing them: doing checks, reporting results, and otherwise responding to other work. You can get away with just reading internal emails, but it's going to surprise your fellow arbs if you don't pipe up with some rational thought when you see the committee thinking about something personally objectionable and the first time they hear about it is when motions have been posted and are waiting for votes. Izno (talk) 06:17, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Right now, I check my email account about once a week. I guess that will change if I'm elected to the committee. It would have helped to hear all of these details before the election. Liz 08:41, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

My hour included time to respond to emails, though I also note you're not going particularly deep on anything with that time (at least when ArbCom had more appeals). Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:26, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

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