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Child abuse

Why there is no mention in this article (neither in the Osho movement one) about the sexuality habits of Osho followers ? Female teens of 13 were sexualy abuse in the Osho commune of Amsterdam (and certainly in other commune aswell). This fact is unequivocally presented in the docmutenry of the dutch realisator Maroesja Perizonius Child of the commune .

There is a clip from and link (pay-per-view) to the programme here. I haven't seen it yet, but will try to have a look at it over the next few days. Jayen466 09:35, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Since you never got back about this subject, I've included the real link and description. The clip from the link you have is on YouTube, and not the original source. The clip shows only the best things about the ashram in the couple minute opening, and not what the content contains. The pay-per-view can be found here and is called "Child of the Commune." One will have to do a search to find it there.

Here is what the clip's description includes:

Story

"Child of the Commune" is a personal story of a woman whose mother joined the commune when she was six years old. They left the commune when she was 14.

Social Interest

This shows what life was like in the commune, in more than one country, from many sources. The guru's teachings are defined in this documentary.

Commentary: I watched the film after paying a fee. It was a woman's quest to find out why her mother and other commune adults had acted irresponsibly in sending youth to the commune school in England (and also abandoning them at the Oregon ashram, where they never saw their real parents). The mother admits in the film to having walked in on her 13 year old daughter engaged in sexual intercourse with an adult from the commune and did nothing to stop it. It describes this as a common occurrence with all the girls of that age at that school. It also described the child labor, that they were sent to "school" for three months but in fact worked from 5:30 a.m. until 5:30 p.m. and later every day. Their only schooling was about one hour a week. Osho claimed that they needed real life lessons, which is why they made them work instead of traditional schooling.

Parents signed consent forms for their young children to have contraceptives administered, a document that the woman in the film had shown her mother. Her mother denied ever having signed anything, and in fact, denied any knowledge of any problems. Even when confronted why the mother didn't intervene in the young teen's sexual activities, the mother gave her daughter the blame, saying the teen wanted it that way.

When showing coverage of devotees greeting Rajneesh, the compulsory act at gunpoint, was exposed.

There are numerous references to responsibility in the film. Parents would abandon their children and live at the adult commune.

Coverage of these topics seems paramount to a full picture of Rajneesh's life.

Solarain (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There is the more obvious charge that most children at Bhagwaan's communes were routinely neglected and basically just left to wander about. The deliberate anarchy of the adult's led to a very poor environment for raising children. Tim Guest's book for example would be a good example of this (He also describes children of 8-10 being sexually active at the ranch, including with the adults, so I would revise that figure downward.) http://www.amazon.com/My-Life-Orange-Growing-Guru/dp/015603106X--77.101.56.9 (talk) 00:59, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Homophoby

Is it possible to say something about his strong homophoby ?

"If you want to be angry, be angry against Jesus Christ. Be angry against all the founders of religions. They all say, "Believe and you will be saved." And I say to you, "Believe and you are drowned." I say to you, "Doubt, because that is something that you have come with. Nature has provided you a method for inquiry. Doubt is a method of inquiry." In ten thousand years of religious history, religions have not contributed anything -- except AIDS, homosexuality, lesbianism, sadism, masochism, wars, discrimination -- all kinds of crimes: killing millions of people, burning living people. They are all based on belief. Science -- which is based on doubt -- has contributed within three hundred years everything from the smallest safety pin to the rocket that reaches to the moon. If you count the blessings that science has showered on you you will be surprised. Your clothes, your glasses, your watches, your health, your medicine, your food -- everything science has improved. Science has only been unsuccessful in improving you, because all the religions are sitting on your neck. I want you to get rid of all the religions and become a scientific seeker. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.218.94.86 (talk) 20:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

In Iran, the punishment for homosexuality is death -- although because of this punishment, more Iranians are homosexual than anybody else. Because when something is so dangerous, people become interested: "Naturally there must be something in it. When the punishment is death, that means there must be something higher than life in it, more than life in it. It is worth taking the risk!"

But why should people be worried about others? About everything the society remains alert: nobody should have his own individual way about his sex, about his love, about his clothes, about his way of talking, manners. Every society imposes a fascist rule on its members. It destroys much that is beautiful. (Osho, Ah, This!)

In the West, if you are walking hand-in-hand with a woman no problem arises, because the society is also the same. But walk hand-in-hand with a man, two men walking hand-in-hand, and people start looking at you. Something is wrong -- you look homosexual, you look gay. It is dangerous!

Now homosexuals have been one of the tortured minorities in the world, very much tortured. In some countries they are killed. In some countries, for example in Iran, if it is found that two persons are living as homosexuals or lesbians, then the only punishment is death. What nonsense! They have not committed any crime against anybody, they have not harmed anybody! Two men living together, or two women living together, this should be nobody else's business. But there is a great fear of homosexuality, and the reason is that homosexuality has been repressed down the ages. ...

The homosexual has a very different lifestyle, and you are heterosexual. He belongs to another religion, he has another politics, he is not a man like you. The moment somebody says that he is gay, a gap arises, a great gap. Now how can you communicate?

But all these fears have to be dropped; these are all defense measures. They simply show that you are not yet settled in your being -- afraid any outside influence may take you away, off your ground. (Osho, Be Still and Know)

... Homosexuals are called "gay" people. They are really gay! The heterosexuals look so sad. Whenever you see a couple you can immediately know whether they are married or not: if they are sad they are married, if they are looking dull and dead they are married. Marriage kills all joy for the simple reason that it creates so many conflicts. Hence all societies have condemned homosexuality, for the simple reason that if it is not condemned, what will happen to reproduction? In the past it had some meaning, but now it has no meaning.

Now the day has come when homosexuality CAN be accepted, should be accepted as a natural outlet of your sexual energies. I am not against it, I am not for it either. I am simply saying that if you have to live your sex you can choose your style, you are free to choose your style. If you decide to be stupid, at least you should be given the freedom to choose what kind of stupid you want to be! I give you total freedom.

My effort here is to help you to go beyond it, so if you are homosexual you have to go beyond homosexuality, if you are heterosexual you have to go beyond heterosexuality. And there are other people also who are neither, who are autoerotic, autosexual. They have to go beyond their autoeroticism. Man has to transcend sex, whatsoever kind of sex it is, because unless you go beyond your biology you will never know your soul. But meanwhile -- before you go beyond -- it is your freedom to be whatsoever you want to be.

You say, "I am homosexual. I feel terribly oppressed and stricken by the stigma of homosexuality."

There is no need to be "terribly oppressed." You must be accepting people's condemnation. Deep down somewhere you are also against it; otherwise, why feel oppressed? If people are against, let them be against! You need not declare to everybody that you are a homosexual. You need not move with a flag that you are a homosexual! You can remain a homosexual. Of course, you cannot hide it because your sex style changes your body language. The way the homosexual walks is totally different from the heterosexual; the way he talks is totally different. And he looks so gay, so happy!

So you will have to remain a little less happy, that's all. Don't look so happy, and walk a little more consciously, that's all. (Osho, The Way of the Buddha)

I could find you dozens and dozens of quotes of this type. Jayen466 23:31, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality

This is not a neutral article. This is damn near a "love letter" to the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, and it glosses over the crimes the man committed and attempts to present this criminal in a positive light and sell his "message". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coelacanth1938 (talk • contribs) 23:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Beback (talk • contribs)

You create the impression that Osho had committed a number of crimes for the article to gloss over; this is not so. The immigration issues (and even these were subject to a plea bargain, see p. 233, Carter 1990) are mentioned, and Osho has never been accused of anything else (ibidem). Osho is seen very much in a positive light today, at least in his home country, India (see for example India Today cover celebrating 60 years of Indian independence). -- Jayen466 21:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

He is surely _not _only seen in positive light, both in the US and in India. A magazine cover does not prove the opposite as for example Hitler has made many covers in connection with German history and most people would not claim this makes him stand in positive light. It is merely an acknowledgement of his impact on his followers. It is obvious that this article is written by a bunch of people on a crusade distorting reality beyond the point of being bearable. Let me stress that I have no interest in editing content on wikipedia for exactly that reason. Why were there allegations against his followers in Oregon, in Amsterdam, etc.? Why did all this happen around one person? Why did some of the followers in Oregon amass weapons and threaten neighbours? Why would any reasonable person look at anything about him in a positive light? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.50.37.229 (talk) 15:32, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

One reason they may have amassed weapons is that circulars appeared all over Oregon at turkey shoots and the like, declaring an "open season on the central eastern Rajneesh, known locally as the Red Rats or Red Vermin", offering advice for "dressing out", "gut shots" and the use of "a Rolls Royce as bait" (Carter, 1990, p. 203). A Rajneeshee-owned hotel in Portland was the victim of a bomb attack a year or two prior; several attempts had been made on Osho's life in India.

As for how Osho is seen in the Indian subcontinent, I cannot think of anything that would make a philosopher more mainstream than the endorsement by several current or former prime ministers and presidents. Study the sources given in the article, or survey the Indian press for yourself for a while. To give you an example, this is the Prime Minister of the world's most populous democracy, speaking in 2000 (he was then leader of the opposition): 'Dr. Singh described the guru as "the most modern patron saint of India" as he had expressed his thoughts on all the problems perplexing mankind today, including environmental degradation, gender equality, human rights and so on. Releasing a compact disc of Osho's analysis of Japuji, which encompasses the basic thought that pervades the Guru Granth Saheb, the leader of the Opposition in the Rajya Sabha said analysis of this kind would inspire future generations of people in all parts of the world. "Whenever human beings ask these questions on how to improve human condition, I am sure Osho's thought will be uppermost on their mind", he added. While he had never met Osho, Dr. Singh said that he had always increasingly found that "his is truly a psalm of peace which gives me contentment. It also enlightens me and it opens up new vistas of exploration about the redemption of the human condition." Later Dr. Singh wrote in the Osho World visitor's book that Osho's "life and work will continue to inspire future generations of humankind and his powerful message of essential unity of mankind will equip us to evolve a new global ethics for the improvement of the human condition."' -- Jayen466 16:23, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this is not a neutral article but more of a love letter by fanatic followers. It should be rather rewritten completely than making minute corrections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.7.180 (talk) 21:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Cool, guys! Let's talk about it. ...hmmmm, but these comments were unsigned so I guess you may not want to talk. ---- Murftown (talk) 19:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• If all that was said above about the massive amounts of weapons, as well as the threats to the various individuals, and this can be referenced in secondary sources - then that should all be presented in the article. If not, I agree with the other anon-ips from above, that it seems like this is a "love letter" that "glosses over" criminal activities, as that person put it. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 00:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC).

• • I disagree. If the surrounding environment made violent threats against sannyasins, and the official Rajneeshpuram Peace Force (built up and trained under the auspices of the State of Oregon) increased its defence capabilities accordingly, then this should be covered in the article on Rajneeshpuram. Yes, to the extent that Osho was directly impacted by the presence of weapons (e.g. in latter years, his Rolls-Royce was accompanied by an armed guard, and he defended the presence of armed guards in his discourses), this can be covered in the article. As for glossing over criminal activities, this is the article about Osho, the individual, not the article about Rajneeshpuram or Ma Anand Sheela or the Osho movement. -- Jayen466 20:37, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• some links with infos that should be at least critically mentioned: 1) Jim Weaver, congressman for Oregons 4th district at the time ; 2) Although I do not agree with all of the authors statements, the following article contains interesting pieces of information . Its just the tip of the iceberg. There are many critics out there with valid points. It just gets drowned by all those who heard what they wanted to hear and who want to beleive it so badly. Its fundamentalism at its best. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.50.37.229 (talk) 18:21, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • The Weaver article is nowhere near reliable, claiming, as it does, that Sheela and Osho left Rajneeshpuram together (!). Neither Carter nor FitzGerald, who spent months on site before and after Osho's leaving, report anything like it. As for the other website, see Misplaced Pages:Verifiability#Self-published_sources_(online_and_paper). -- Jayen466 19:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • The entry - as is - excludes most of the criticism raised. Mentioning an article critically could include commenting on open questions. The entry is perceived as a "love letter" as it voluntarily makes assumtions in favour of Osho but does not mention the far spreat criticism in any detail. Furthermore, if one single wrong statement would discredit the complete source almost no article in wikipedia would be useful or stand up to its own demand. But what to expect in an article about a person with whom interviews seem like discussions with a common forum troll?

I have added a review of various criticisms, sourced, to the criticism section, as a "quick fix". More revisions will follow; both the Poona and Oregon sections require expansion. -- Jayen466 21:39, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Surely, the question to be asked is the opposite one: Why should an article in a small-circulation local paper, recording evidently faulty reminiscences of an elderly gentleman, be considered a preferred source for encyclopaedic information, given that there is a wealth of well-researched academic sources available? I'll gladly add a summary of criticism, based on reputable secondary sources. As I have said elsewhere, I had intended to revise the article for some time, to remedy its primary source bias, but have been busy with other things. (In particular, I bought the book by Fox recently, which covers all of Osho's life, rather than any specific episode.) -- Jayen466 20:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

• An interview with Osho for the German political magazine "Der Spiegel" (in German - shortened). It can mildly be perceived as self contradictory. . Also the full article in DER SPIEGEL Nr. 32/1985 contains some very questionable comments not contained in the short version. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.50.37.229 (talk) 18:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Notable info to add to the article

• Leadership, Director, Office of Policy and Planning, Joseph R. Greene, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement

Previous to this, Mr. Greene served as deputy district director of the Portland District in Oregon. In 1984, Mr. Greene was detailed to the Portland, Oregon district office to supervise the criminal investigation of the Indian guru, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, whose cult had taken over a small town in Central Oregon. This investigation, which began in 1981, resulted in the criminal convictions and deportations of the guru and many of his principle followers. For his action in this investigation Mr. Greene was awarded the Attorney General's Award for Distinguished Service in 1986.

I do not know how often the "Attorney General's Award for Distinguished Service" is awarded, but this should be mentioned in the article. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 20:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC).

That same info is also corroborated, here. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 20:52, 18 November 2007 (UTC).

Isn't Mr Greene's getting a medal rather peripheral to the article's subject? Or do you mean there should be mention of the fact that there was a major criminal investigation of Rajneeshpuram by the US authorities? The latter is certainly true, and could be expanded. -- Jayen466 21:13, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd think that certainly if it is rare for the "Attorney General's Award for Distinguished Service" to be awarded, then that could be worth mentioning. Certainly the source itself could be used in the article, and most definitely, yes, the issue itself of "a major criminal investigation of Rajneeshpuram by the US authorities" as you put it, is undercovered in the article at present, if barely at all. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 21:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC).

Btw, well done for sourcing a public-domain picture! -- Jayen466 21:15, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It is an interesting presentation, if you have the time to take a look. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 21:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC).

Lacks Objectivity and Neutrality

Any human event can be perceived in a variety of ways, thus subjective by the eyes of the beholder.

What seems to be missing here is objectivity. What is enlightenment? And who can define it except the enlightened? It seems that an enlightened one would never see themselves as such, or proclaim it publically. The ego itself can deceive as to enlightenment, so to use one's own judgment in this regard is using ego.

A person in their early years of life, if enlightened, does not change from night to day and become egoistic in later life. If power has corrupted them, they could not have been enlightened to begin with. It just hadn't surfaced yet.

Just as we see that Hitler had good intentions at one point in his early years with creating more jobs and commonwealth for the German people, the power corrupted. He himself did not personally murder countless Jews. His employ did so in his stead.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that even if Osho/Rajneesh did not personally spray salmonella on salad bars, rape minors (but did rape adults), tape conversations in the compound, carry weapons, carry out suicide bombings to Oregon legislature buildings, he employed those who did. He entrusted his staff to do as he wished. There are taped recordings of these facts.

Egolessness would mean non-attachment to results. The fact he wanted to be elected mayor, had material attachments to numerous high priced luxuries, was "seduced" into drug use, was a very sick man (diabetes, etc.) not only showed his human and ego sides, but his true non-enlightenment.

Humans that are enlightened do have their ego sides and human frailties, but they do not dominate as in the case of Osho. They leave behind a true legacy of love, compassion and acceptance of all people - whether the people agreed with them personally or not.

If one is attached to a guru, it means they are not enlightened nor self sufficient. If one is not self sufficient, they could never be enlightened. Getting angry over criticism of a guru is attachment. If one cannot live without their guru, they are not self sufficient nor self realized. Nor will they become as such. Dependency can not lead to non-attachment and is a form of desire.

The best that can be said about Osho's religion is that it was a hedonistic religion. It speaks to the most basic and crude of human nature, that of sexuality and desire. It's an easy religion in which one follows their ego's every whim and desire for self gratification. There is really no effort involved in such a religion, as it's much like letting a child loose in a candy store.

So bantering back and forth about if Osho committed crimes or not seems futile. To leave it up to one's own opinion (the ego and its own subjectivity/attachment/desire) seems the only option, as this is a highly subjective subject that won't be agreed upon universally. People who can't and won't face facts and the truth will always see Osho as innocent because their own egoistic desires are fulfilled through belief in hedonism.

It seems the Simpson's episode, where Rajneesh was depicted as a white gloved guru driving his Rolls Royce down a dusty commune road as his disciples felt joy at eating his road dust seems appropo. In the cartoon, the great guru tried to escape the commune with bags of cash in a homemade peddle driven flying machine. Solarain (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Please spare us your ramblings on this talk page. Misplaced Pages articles are based on sources, not idle philosophising. -- Jayen466 20:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Where is your source for enlightenment? The only source is Osho's own words, which is no validated source. Because enlightenment is subjective, this article is as well. Every comment related to his criminal or immoral activities has been refuted or glossed over. Even the statement, "The only charge ever filed against him..." is a biased whitewashed recollection that serves to purposely thwart the topic. If stated unbiased, it would give the facts. It does not. This is only one sentence in a long article that is being refuted as unbiased. It's a daunting task to address every sentence, thus why people are complaining about its lack of neutrality. Credible coverage of negative points is lacking entirely. Solarain (talk) 22:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

If there are problems with the article you should discuss them, not go off on a tangent rambling about Hitler and goodnessknows what else. If Osho claims to have achieve enlightment all we need is a source that verifies this. It is not necessary in fact it's rather silly for us to try an find additional third party sources claiming he achieved enlightment. We should not (whether about Osho or anyone else) say that he achieve enlightment simply that he claims to have achieve enlightment. Indeed failing to mention that he claims to have achieved enlightment would be a MAJOR failing on our part since for many people, the fact that he claims to have achieved enlightment does not put Osho in a good light. Also, please mind WP:NPA. Do not attack editors. If there are problems with the article you are welcome to discuss that but attacking editors, especially one who was simply telling you to stay on topic is unacceptable. Nil Einne (talk) 15:36, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

The article states "Osho courted controversy throughout his life, appearing to challenge many traditional assumptions about enlightened behaviour." This is formulated in a way that suggests Oshos enlightenment. The article is full of suggestive formulations like this which should all be removed for a more neutral language. (Tarsilion (talk) 21:46, 23 November 2007 (UTC))

Misplaced Pages articles also should be neutral . This one is clearly not neutral in various ways. Notice that contents should be both verifiable AND neutral. A biased selection of citations also clearly violates the principle of neutrality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.47.20.83 (talk) 21:35, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Was not "allowed to leave" United States, but rather was "deported"

According to Rajneesh's biography in Thomson Gale :

Nevertheless, Rajneesh's activities were brought to the attention of the federal government. The religious leader was soon charged with 35 counts of deliberate violations against immigration laws. On a plea bargain, he admitted his guilt in two of the charges and was deported back to his native India in 1985.

• "Acharya Rajneesh". Contemporary Authors Online. Thomson Gale. September 5, 2003. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

This is not the same as being "allowed to leave the United States" and if acceptable sources say he was "deported" then that should be present in the article. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 17:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Here is the wording in Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology :

The authorities were never able to connect him with crimes on the ranch, but he was found guilty of immigration violation and conspiracy to evade visa regulations (charges his followers claimed were entirely bogus). He was fined $400,000, given a suspended prison sentence of ten years, and ordered to leave the United States for a minimum of five years.

• Staff (2001). "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology, 5th ed. Gale Group. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 17:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Here is the wording of his being "deported", in Newsmakers 1990 :

Rajneesh arranged a plea bargain and was deported as a result. After being rejected from 21 other countries, Rajneesh settled again in Poona. He had changed his name in 1988 from "Bhagwan," which is a deity's title in Hindi, to "Osho," a Buddhist term meaning "On whom the heavens shower flowers."

• Staff (1990). "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". Newsmakers 1990. Gale Research. pp. Issue 2. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 17:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Here is the wording of his being "deported", in Almanac of Famous People :

Cult leader known for preaching blend of Eastern religion, pop psychology, free love; deported from US, 1985, for immigration violations.

• Staff (2007). "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". Almanac of Famous People, 9th ed. Thomson Gale. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 17:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Here is the "deportation" of Rajneesh, as per a Forbes article from 1991 :

Rancho Rajneesh collapsed following the deportation of the guru to India in 1985 and the subsequent guilty pleas of top lieutenants on charges including arson, attempted murder, wiretapping and immigration fraud. Several Rajneeshee leaders are wanted for conspiracy to murder a U.S. Attorney. Rajneesh died in India last year.

• Stern, Richard L. (June 24, 1991). "Bhagwan Washington? (Dennis Washington's purchase of ranch owned by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh)". Forbes. 147 (13). {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 18:11, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Please do not remove this from this talk page.

These sources are relevant to this article, as Osho's being deported from the United States and arrested on thirty-five counts of immigration fraud is relevant to a biographical article about him and should be mentioned in it, if we are to avoid a whitewashing. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 17:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

In summary, the following sources state that Osho was "deported" from the United States:

1. "Acharya Rajneesh". Contemporary Authors Online. Thomson Gale. September 5, 2003. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
2. Staff (2001). "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology, 5th ed. Gale Group. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
3. Staff (1990). "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". Newsmakers 1990. Gale Research. pp. Issue 2. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
4. Staff (2007). "Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh". Almanac of Famous People, 9th ed. Thomson Gale. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
5. Stern, Richard L. (June 24, 1991). "Bhagwan Washington? (Dennis Washington's purchase of ranch owned by Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh)". Forbes. 147 (13). {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 19:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

This issue -- of whether Osho was "deported" or "allowed to leave the country" -- came up in another talk page, and arose in response to wordings present in various other reputable sources. These are the relevant posts from myself on the other talk page that Curt's posts above relate to:

The wording "allowed" is present in Carter, marked as a quote, leading me to assume that this was the official wording of the verdict. Carter was very close to events at the time and researched this more thoroughly than anyone else (have a look at the citations listed in his book), and so I believe that in general, his account should be given preference in such matters of detail over accounts published 15 or 20 years after the event. Cheers, -- Jayen466 17:51, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I just checked FitzGerald. She also does not use the word "deported"; her wording is "He received a ten-year suspended prison sentence, and agreed to pay four hundred thousand dollars in fines and prosecution costs, to leave the country within five days, and not to come back for at least five years without the explicit permission of the United States Attorney General." (The New Yorker Sept 29. 1986, page 111). I think that may be technically different from being deported, since in deportation there is to my knowledge no question of the deportee "agreeing" to anything, but I don't know, so I will have to look further into this. Fox (2002) btw also has "deported". Cheers, Jayen466 18:13, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Curt, I am simply drawing your attention to a discrepancy. I don't believe you have access to the Carter, so I'll give you the complete quote here:

"He was fined $400,000, given a ten-year suspended sentence, "allowed" to depart from the country voluntarily, and placed on probation for five years. An effect of this arrangement is that he is ineligible to reenter the United States for five years from the date of entering the plea."

The wording in the September 29 1986 issue of The New Yorker was: "He received a ten-year suspended prison sentence, and agreed to pay four hundred thousand dollars in fines and prosecution costs, to leave the country within five days, and not to come back for at least five years without the explicit permission of the United States Attorney General."

So in this case, yes, I believe it is possible that the other publications are wrong, simply because we have two extremely reputable, well-researched, temporally and physically close-to-the-event secondary sources substantially agreeing with each other, and contradicting various tertiary sources compiled years later. Frances FitzGerald is a Pulitzer prize winner, The New Yorker's fact checking department is legendary and unparalleled in the history of journalism, and Carter was an American sociologist from a reputable university who I believe spent more time researching Rajneeshpuram than any other scholar anywhere in the world. Compared to that, the "Encyclopaedia of Occultism and Parapsychology" or the "Almanac of Famous People" simply don't cut the mustard. -- Jayen466 19:09, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

• • • Carter refers to a "bargain arrangement" in the preceding sentence, FitzGerald refers to Osho's lawyers "cutting a deal" with the US Attorney's Office in the preceding sentence. What they describe, therefore, are simply the terms of the plea bargain. These included Osho's undertaking to leave the country, which he did the same day that he entered his plea, i.e. November 14 1986 (FitzGerald, p.112 The New Yorker 9/29/86 and p. 365 Cities on a Hill). This means that no deportation procedure was ever initiated; there simply would not have been time for one. Likewise, FWIW, the answers.com biography has: "He pled guilty with the understanding that he would be allowed to leave the country." Cheers, -- Jayen466 19:33, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I have since accepted that the wording "deported" is very frequently found in the literature, and even on US government websites, and may, at least as a loose expression, be defensible. Even so, I still see no reason to doubt the veracity of the presentation in the excellent accounts by FitzGerald and Carter. -- Jayen466 22:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Methinks Jayen doth protest too much. All your jibber jabber over verbal constructions of phrases that basically and obviously indicate he was forced to leave -- it walks like deportation and quacks like deportation, so you may as well call it deportation as call it anything. Get real, already. Brian, 1/2/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.67.236.132 (talk) 18:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Government sources also describe Osho (AKA Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh) as "deported" and not simply "allowed to leave"

Bolding is emphasis added to quotes :

1. Staff (2007). "Oregon History: Chronology - 1952 to 2002". Oregon Blue Book. Directory and Fact Book compiled by the Oregon State Archives. Retrieved 2007-11-22. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

   "1985 - Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh deported and fined $400,000"

2. Staff. "Wasco County History". Oregon Historical County Records Guide. Oregon State Archives. Retrieved 2007-11-22. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

   "The Bhagwan was indicted on federal immigration charges and deported to India."

3. Staff (September 25, 2006). "Leadership, Director, Office of Policy and Planning, Joseph R. Greene". U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. ICE. Retrieved 2007-11-22. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

   "In 1984, Mr. Greene was detailed to the Portland, Oregon district office to supervise the criminal investigation of the Indian guru, Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, whose cult had taken over a small town in Central Oregon. This investigation, which began in 1981, resulted in the criminal convictions and deportations of the guru and many of his principle followers."

• The very website of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement refers to Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh as being deported from the United States, not "allowed to leave." Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Please do not remove these sources from this talk page.

Added here as well, because obviously Osho's deportation from the United States (as per the website of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement) is relevant in a biographical article about the individual himself. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 23:45, 22 November 2007 (UTC).

Is the title Bhagwan appropriate?

Looking at I doubt that Osho should be called like this. Did he give himself that title? Was he merely called like this by his followers? Could this be considered offensive to traditional Hindus? I just immagine how I would perceive someone callling themself god and cannot see a big difference. Can someone clarify this? (Tarsilion (talk) 21:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC))

Determining the appropriateness of the title is probably beyond the scope of this article. To clarify, if you're speaking in generalities (i.e. do people get offended when anyone gives themself the title Bhagwan) then that information probably belongs on the Bhagwan page. If you mean, were or are there specific people who objected to this man's use of the title then we would need a published source where that person or person's specifically objected. Currently, the article does not state how he got the title, just that he did. Someone might wish to expand it to include that information. Perhaps a to-do list is appropriate for this article. Whether or not it's offensive also seems irrelevant to me, unless we have a published article which documents that people were offended by it.TheRingess (talk) 21:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

My opinion is that a title whose appropriateness cannot be determined should be removed. Misplaced Pages is by now an often referenced source and no one should be called the equivalent of "god" without at least some basic consensus within the group usually using the title (Hindus, Buddhists). One could also write that he called himself like that and was called so by some of his followers. As is it adds to the lack of neutrality for this article. (Tarsilion (talk) 22:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC))

I do not agree regarding appropriateness. That he called himself Bhagwan and that other people called him Bhagwan is documented and seems relevant to the article. How he acquired the title is also. Whether or not it was appropriate, inappropriate or somewhere in between is not.TheRingess (talk) 23:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

He is known as Bhagwan or at least he always was. We should callt eh article by the name he is known best for, which is surely Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Tarsilion, Rajneesh is notorious for appropriating titles and lying about it - that's how he became known as "Osho", in fact. That is one of the many reasons why he is indeed offensive to traditional Hindus, as well as to other true religious people. Although I don't think the comparison to calling himself "god" holds any water. I agree that this particular matter is best answered in the article about the word "Bhagwan" itself.

Squeak, what do you mean by "always"? He used the titles/names of Acharya, Osho and Bagwhan at various times, but his name was Rajneesh. Luis Dantas (talk) 01:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Tarsilion, the use of titles in the East has a different connotation than in the West. In India, you will meet many people referred to as "Bhagwan", or "Maharaj" (great king) and so on. It is used as a term of respect, and doesn't indicate that such a person is "Blessed" nor a "Great King". And, as the Misplaced Pages itself states, the meaning of Bhagwan is not God, but more accurately "blessed one" or "fortunate one". jalal (talk) 15:46, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Images

Has anybody got a decent image of him to use. Two pictures of cars, and a mirror don't do the article any favours. 78.151.245.185 (talk) 22:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, a good question. I am currently looking into getting some free-use "public domain" images related to this topic, from government sources in the United States. We shall see what turns up. Cheers, Curt Wilhelm VonSavage (talk) 03:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC).

I'd be grateful if people would stop deleting the picture of the Osho Commune. As I've pointed out before, I inserted it at the request of a reviewer, User:Nichalp. The place is notable; I believe it is, after the Taj Mahal, India's second-largest tourist attraction and mentioned as tourist attraction on Indian Embassy websites. In addition to its foreign visitors, it has hosted numerous cultural events involving leading cultural icons of India, and is regularly mentioned in the Indian press. Whether you like Osho or not matters diddlysquat. -- Jayen466 01:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

POV Pushing

• I'm afraid there is a neutrality issue here as there is with a lot of wiki pages representing religious organizations. This item runs like a full page advert for the Osho International Foundation and I suspect this particular page is being policed by said group. This is essentially a POV pushing issue. There also is an over-abundance of links to Youtube videos produced by OIF, this is unsavoury.

• Osho, L. Ron Hubbard, Sun Myung Moon, David Koresh, Ted Haggard, Louis Farakhan, Aum Shinrikyo etc. etc. varying degrees on a megalomaniacs scale. Disciples of any religious group will lie and twist the truth to keep up appearances and that is what is happening on this Wiki page dedicated to Osho.

• To a secular individual such as myself this is simply another control obsessed religious organisation. As with all such entities, they have a tarnished reputation which they are doing their utmost to polish up. Part of this effort involves manipulating perspectives through damage limitation measures (such as including the controversy section, but sweetening it in a manner that de-emphasises particular issues, while ignoring others completely). I find this similar to the way Scientology followers have attempted to manipulate any Scientology related entries in Misplaced Pages.

• The controversy surrounding Osho has been downplayed considerably. There is no mention of why he left India (tax evasion) for the US (entering by claiming he needed urgent medical treatment), no mention of the often violent group therapy sessions that were later suspended because of negative publicity, no mention of the issue with the school at Pemberton in Western Australia (children suffered deprivation, threats, and coerced into sex play), the link to the Rolls Royce parable as justification for Rajneesh's overindulgences (93 Rolls cars, jewel encrusted watches, planes, etc.) and then allege that "his followers bought for his use" is ridiculous, no mention of the arms cache that was acquired (that's a real message of peace) and the private army trained to use them, and what about the AIDS and general sexual health policy that arose from the positive testing of two commune members at Rajneeshpuram (the condoms, rubber gloves, and alcohol spray), no mention of Osho doing a runner with cash, jewellery, and his throne, and nothing about the acrimony between Rajneesh and Sheela: it boils down to his word against hers, irrespective of alleged lack of “evidence”; why do they never manage to get Mafioso bosses? because someone else does their dirty work, Osho was not a stupid man).

• Also, aside form all the Youtube links to OIF propaganda there is a direct external link to the Osho International Meditation Resort this is unacceptable as it amounts to advertising (it is a commercial organisation).Semitransgenic (talk) 17:09, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Commercial conflict of interests

• Lets be clear about this, what we have here is a commercial entity using wiki to further it's business. Note that the word OSHO is a registered trademark, it is a brand. The various meditative practices they claim to have developed, they are all trademarked. Any links in the text that point to You Tube go to OIF produced videos, or more precisely, OSHO advertisements. I believe this infringes wiki policy and I am requesting that someone with the appropriate editorial authority address this; as it compromises the integrity of the Misplaced Pages service. It is not here to sell OSHO goods and services.

Please do not remove this post until the issue is resolved.

Semitransgenic (talk) 21:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope you'll apply the same rigor to the Coca Cola and eBay articles. :-) -- Jayen466 00:26, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Kindly review What should be linked:

1. Articles about any organization, person, web site, or other entity should link to the official site if any.

2. An article about a book, a musical score, or some other media should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.

And FYI: I do not "own, maintain or represent" osho.com or any other related website. And I get the impression that you have a distinct bee in your bonnet about this individual. Cheers, -- Jayen466 01:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

• • What's in my bonnet is none of your concern. POV and advertising is the issue here.

Please note wiki states:

Advertising is prohibited as an official Misplaced Pages policy. Advertising should be removed by following these steps, in order:

  1. Clean up per Misplaced Pages:neutral point of view
  2. Delete remaining advertising content from the article
  3. Delete the article, by listing it at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion if no notable content remains.

Interesting that you should mention the Coke page because it's a good example of how external links should be dealt with, they are at the end of the page, and not strewn throughout the main body of the text.There are no links to Coke video adverts.

Arguably this is essentially a spamming issue. If you go and look at wiki guidelines regarding advertising you will note that it warns against "adding excessive external links to one's company"

Now, OSHO is a company, this is beyond dispute, as such, in relation to guidelines on company articles it should be noted that: "It is often better not to write an article about the company you work for or own. Firstly, you may have problems maintaining a neutral point of view, and secondly, it may be that your article will be quickly deleted. If your company is notable enough, someone else will write an article about it".Having reviewed this it should be clear that if members of OIF participate in the editing of this item there is a serious POV problem.

I'm not sure what your particular position is in terms of association with OFI but if one were to assess the level of engagement you have with the editing of the OSHO item then you may indeed be a member of OFI (or one of it's international offshoots). If it can be verified that you are an associate of OFI there is then a conflict of interest as you are seen to be "foregoing the advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages in order to advance outside interests." Semitransgenic (talk) 11:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Your assertion that OSHO is nothing but a registered trademark, a brand, fails to acknowledge that Osho was a person and the founder of a religious movement. It is this person that this article is about, not a trademark or brand.

As for links to video recordings of the man, please refer to WP:Linkspam: Generally, a video is not a spamming video if it is posted by the official site associated with the Misplaced Pages article.

• Glad you are finally admitting that the page is being controlled by Osho International Semitransgenic (talk) 21:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

For example, if the Misplaced Pages article is on a movie named "xyzMovie" and the official site for the movie is "xyzMovie.com" then links or references to "xyzMovie.com" are legitimate for a video at a video sharing page—however, all other links at that video page still must also be legitimate. Some judgement is needed here. If the posted video just advertises a bunch of products associated with the movie, then it is a spamming video even though it is posted by the official site. :The video links in question contain a reference to www.osho.com, nothing else. osho.com is the official site associated with the subject of this WP article, hence I see no violation of the linkspam guidelines. Such violation would be the case if video links of this type were placed in other, unrelated articles, but not here.

I could add that Osho videos fulfil a scripture-like function within the Osho movement; they are shown on a daily basis in the Meditation Resort in Pune. Hence I see no difference between linking to an Osho video that backs up a specific statement made in this article, and linking to an online Bible or Koranic reference in an article on a Christian or Islamic topic. For example, you will find links similar to the ones here in articles like Nontrinitarianism, Sahaja Yoga, American Jews, Protestantism and Catholic Church. As for the alleged commercial nature, I don't think you understood my point.

• I have no interest in understanding your point. You are a cultist with a hidden agenda, discussion is futile. Semitransgenic (talk) 20:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

The article on Coca Cola shows images of various Coca Cola advertisements, the article on eBay has in-line links to various commercial eBay sites, even though there is much less reason to include such links than there is here, as these links do not back up statements made in the article. Overall, I see no reason not to reinstate the links. However, I welcome further discussion on this. -- Jayen466 16:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Notability

Please take note of the fact that there are 20 references to material written by BSR, two of which are autobiographical, this is more evidence to support the assertion that a POV issue exists.

General notability guidelines:

A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.

"Presumed" means objective evidence meets the criteria, without regard for the subjective personal judgments of editors.Substantive coverage in reliable sources suggests that the subject is notable.

"Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive.

"Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject are a good test for notability.

"Sources,"defined on Misplaced Pages as secondary sources, provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally preferred.

"Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.

Semitransgenic (talk) 11:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

These are notability guidelines used to justify the presence of an article on a topic in Misplaced Pages. They have nothing to do with what you are talking about. The notability of Osho is beyond question. There is considerable academic literature on Osho; in India, students of philosophy write doctoral theses on Osho's thought. Please note that the English-language Misplaced Pages is also the Indian Misplaced Pages. Re your question on the "influential paper", this is the wording used in Fox, an academic treatment of Osho's life and work by a sociologist of religion. I believe it was a Bombay daily; I can check up on this if you like. Cheers, -- Jayen466 17:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

For your reference, these are the relevant sections of the Bombay High Court tax judgment used to source the "sea change" statement:

12. The Commissioner of Income-tax (Appeals) as well as two of the three members of the Appellate Tribunal have rightly observed that the perception of the people towards the preaching of the philosophy of Acharya Rajneesh has undergone sea change during the last few years. While earlier, he was supposed to be controversial personality and most of the people of this country were averse to his thinking and preaching, during last few years his teachings and philosophy have become more acceptable to the society. About 650 books written by Acharya Rajneesh have been widely studied and translated in many European and Asian and Indian languages. He wrote on diverse subjects like Vedanta, Geeta (Geeta Darshan), Sant Kabeer (Kahe Kabeer Diwana), Guru Nanak (Ek Omkar Satnam) which is commentary on the Sikh scripture known as ‘Japuji’, hailed as best commentary by Gyani Zail Singh, former President of India. The complete Osho literature was accepted in the Parliament library and Mr. Shivraj Patil, the then Speaker of Lok Sabha, who received the literature from the trust, termed the literature as ‘original creation’. He observed that essence contained in all the volumes is that one should find peace in one self, only then can peace be attained in the society and in the entire universe.

13. Not only Acharya Rajneesh is being studied by number of universities abroad but several students have also prosecuted higher studies in the philosophy of Acharya Rajneesh in the Jawaharlal University, Patna University, North Gujarat University, Banaras Hindu University for Ph.D. Rani Durgawati University, Jabalpur has established an Osho Chair with the financial support of the Government of Madhya Pradesh for the study of his philosophy. In response to the letter dated 28-3-2001 from the Deputy Commissioner of Income-tax (Headquarters) to the respondent seeking certain clarifications for the purpose of application for exemption under section 80G, the respondent gave the details about its activities in the explanation dated 9th April, 2001. It was pointed out that some of the important purposes and objects of the trust are, besides to spread and impart preaching of the philosophers, to conduct and arrange seminars, tours, shivirs, research and other programmes, to start, promote and conduct Gyan Yagna, Sadhana centres, seminars, discourses, study groups, to give loans, freeships, scholarships, prizes, monetary assistance to carry out research and preach philosophy, to impart medical knowledge by way of Sadhana and other suitable systems beneficial to physical and mental health. It was pointed out that the main and fundamental activity of the trust is meditation which is gaining momentum and popularity in the country. It is pointed out that Acharya Rajneesh had developed several techniques of meditation for improvement of mind and body. Over the ages, meditation has been the bed-rock of the Indian philosophy. Important religions like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism have emphasised the importance of meditation as a means towards attainment of eternal peace. The respondent contended that the trust activities are for the benefit of general public at large with its fundamental charitable object to develop human mind, body and soul with a view to achieve physical, mental and spiritual well-being with the ultimate aim of achieving self-consciousness. With these objects, the respondent claims to have opened 250 centres around the country. Swami Satya Vedant and many other disciples of Acharya Rajneesh conduct seminars and meditation camps all over India for the benefit of people without any remuneration. It is contended that the activities of the respondent are for the benefit of human beings and not for the profit.

14. Whatever might be the perception of people about Acharya Rajneesh and his teachings in the earlier phase, it must be accepted that in view of the developments pointed out above, the philosophy and teaching of Acharya Rajneesh have become more acceptable to the people during the last few years. Admittedly, main thrust of the respondent is on meditation and nobody can dispute that in India meditation has been very important source for physical, mental and spiritual well-being of the human beings. Cognizance has to be taken that the meditation and Yoga are becoming more and more popular among the Indians who are now becoming conscious about their physical, mental and spiritual health. Not only in India, meditation and Yoga are being accepted in the Western Countries also as a great source for physical and mental health and spiritual attainment. When a large number of people feel that meditation is a great source for physical, mental and spiritual well-being, it must be held to be an activity for the advancement of general public utility. -- Jayen466 17:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for amusement value, and to demonstrate "notability", this is the cover of a recent India Today edition celebrating 60 years of Indian independence; it shows the 40 or 50 individuals held to have been most influential in India since independence: -- Jayen466 17:30, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

• • yeah whatever, money talks/people walk, Osho International waved some cash in the right direction and some corrupt officials did there bidding, that's how things work in India, still one of the most corrupt place on the planet, who are you trying to fool?

Semitransgenic (talk) 20:26, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Civility

In view of the fact that the edits made by the IP numbers http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/86.12.240.186 http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/143.117.78.169 etc. all track to the same geographical location and match the edit history of User:Semitransgenic, I would like to point out that edit summaries like this one are absolutely unacceptable.

Likewise, this edit summary raising the accusation that the link to 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack had been "intentionally obscured" is a gross violation of WP:AGF, in particular since I was the one who introduced the link in this article a few weeks back. I would therefore appreciate it if henceforth we could work constructively on this article, without the abuse and innuendo. Thank you. -- Jayen466 18:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, don't come in here waving some WP:AGF flag when you have lied about your background; in relation to this article. You are a worm. Semitransgenic (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW weren't you the one who got wrapped up in a dispute about the bio-terror article? bit of a coincidence. Semitransgenic (talk) 20:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Editors Please note: Jayen & Conflict of Interests

I think that it is important that this is addressed considering there may be a potential conflict of interests. We have an article which is largely controlled and edited by one individual jayen466. He claims to have nothing to do with Osho or have any vested interest in the information that is presented here. However, even the slightest search demonstrates that Jayen/samayika/Andreas has close associations with this movement. He is in fact a so-called neo-sannyasin known as Swami Jayen (search for Jayen). He signed off recently using this title on this blog item

Also, note the last sentence in this article on Osho copyright issues

"....merely in line with Osho's wish: "Protect my name ... I know it cannot be done 100%, but take as much care as possible."

We see a reiteration of the copyright piece here.In case there is any doubt that it is the same person, also posted under the 'samayika' guise is this

Without doubt Jayen is an Osho disciple operating on this wiki item as a protector of Osho's name, I imagine this is why he also saw to it that the documentary that was linked to this page was pulled by Osho International, and why he resists the inclusion of anything that might be seen to tarnish his gurus image; irrespective of it's relevance or pertinence.

This also explains why the entire article rests heavily on citations from one publication (Fox) and a large number of self-published (and auto-biographical) items; despite the existence of dozenS of academic writings that offer a less rose tinted version of particular events.

There is a persecution complex at play here, I mean is there really any rational explanation for a sentence like this: His followers succeeded not only in rationalising the disastrous scandal in the United States, but in making Osho a heroic martyr who had been unjustly persecuted by the oppressive, imperialist U.S. government

So what is the point in all of this? Well simply that if this individual is allowed to monopolize this article and control how it is edited a "fair and balanced" perspective will never be arrived at. He has already attempted to quickly usher through a peer review but failed.From what I can see there is a suppression campaign being waged by Osho International Foundation. This is being aided and abetted by followers such as Swami Jayen.

Semitransgenic (talk) 15:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Please read and abide by WP:NPA, in particular . Thank you. The sentence you quote above is taken as close to verbatim as allowable from the cited University of California Press publication. -- Jayen466 17:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Are you trying to say that we should somehow ignore your affiliation with OIF? Your views on this Osho matter are significantly biased; by your devotional adherences. As such, this discounts the usefulness of your contributions, especially as your goal appears to be that of protecting your masters good name at all costs. This serves only to exacerbate the POV issue associated with this page.Semitransgenic (talk) 18:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

So let's look at the sentence above, the book from which it is taken is basically a general overview of Tantric practice and contains approx. 365 pages, 8 of which deal with Rajneesh. On one of those 8 pages there is 1 paragraph that expresses the authors personal opinion, he is surmising, note he begins the paragraph with the word 'perhaps'. You also use another biased opinion to back this assertion, that of Swami Annad Jina, again we are supposed to accept that a devotee can offer objectivity. I find this dubious to say the least. Semitransgenic (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Here are the verbatims from the book cited; I reckon it will pass as fair use if I quote it here:

Perhaps the most surprising aspect of the Rajneesh phenomenon lies not so much in his scandalous career in America, but in his remarkable apotheosis and rebirth upon his return to India. A truly global Tantric guru, Rajneesh made the journey from India to America and back to India again, finally achieving even more success in his homeland, perhaps in large part because of his status as a figure who had a massive U. S. and European following. Rather incredibly, his followers were not only able to rationalize the disastrous scandal in the United States, but even to make Rajneesh a heroic martyr who had been unjustly persecuted by the oppressive imperialist U. S. government: “ was crushed from without by the Attorney General's office… like the marines in Lebanon, the Ranch was hit by hardball opposition and driven out. ” 122 ...

Rather remarkably, however, Osho seems to have become only more popular since his death. Indeed, he has published perhaps more books and received more acclaim as a disembodied photograph or video image than he ever did while still incarnate.

Publication Information: Book Title: Tantra: Sex, Secrecy Politics, and Power in the Study of Religion. Contributors: Hugh B. Urban - author. Publisher: University of California Press. Place of Publication: Berkeley, CA. Publication Year: 2003. Page Number: 259.

It is an academic source, and it is on topic. -- Jayen466 23:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Semi- the appropriate place to discuss potential or alleged conflicts of interest is Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. Please limit the discussion on this page to how we can improve this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Beback this is an ongoing POV issue so quit with your weighing in on something you haven't even taken the time to look into properly.Semitransgenic (talk) 23:15, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

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