Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 05:38, 26 January 2008

Some description of the problem for the uninitiated

This was presented for the benefit of User:Tparameter at the talk page of User:Raymond arritt"

"Expert" was the best shorthand term I could think of for "rational, well-informed person." Although most of the people who have raised issues do have expertise relevant to the topics in which they're editing, they're more than happy to work with well-intentioned novices. I'll gladly help people whose knowledge has some gaps but are coming at an issue in a constructive way (see for example this exchange). It's dealing with aggressive POV-pushers and Kozmik Kadetts who are convinced they have The Truth that gives people fits. Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Tparameter, let's take another example, which is not exactly about "experts". Let's consider the abortion and pregnancy articles. Now we have a few doctors and nurses and choice and right to life advocates who are trying to construct an article or two that show all sides.

And one or two antiabortion editors come to the articles and unilaterally demand that the articles be written as they dictate, ignoring all sources that they dislike and deleting all material that they disagree with. And they are abusive and combative and uncivil and attack others repeatedly who are trying to have articles that include material from both the right to life and the right to choose sides of the argument, and from the medical perspective. They fight frantically to present the articles ONLY from the right to life view. When told about NPOV, they ignore it or twist the words tortuously to get their way. And many other editors give up and leave Misplaced Pages because it is too unpleasant to deal with these anti-abortion editors.

Then finally, RfCs and Arbcomm proceedings are started against the antiabortion editors. But they promise to do better, and get off and then act badly again, and the entire cycle repeats a half dozen times. Finally the anti-abortion editors are blocked, but then plead to come back and are allowed back, and start acting badly again. And more mainstream editors trying to operate within NPOV give up and leave. And to save one troublesome editor who is unwilling or unable to abide by NPOV, we drive off 5 or 10 others who are trying to abide by NPOV.

If there are experts in this picture, it is the doctors and nurses, who are discouraged from editing by these difficult editors. But the principles are the same as on many other articles.

This same behavior goes on over and over. My main concern and Raymond arritt's concern is on pseudoscience articles and science articles. Where one person claims that magic is real and the articles must be rewritten to include magic or else it is patently unfair. And they and their friends demand that science take a back seat in science articles to magic.

And our administrative structure of admins and arbcomm etc are unable or unwilling to do anything about this situation. And they get 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 10th, 20th, 50th, 100th chances to improve and they never improve. And just drive regular productive editors working within NPOV away, and these regular productive NPOV editors are given no 2nd chances as the disruptive trolls, sock puppets, meat puppets, POV warriors and tendentious disruptive editors are.

Is that clearer?--Filll (talk) 02:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Proposal:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project.

Discussion

• I agree. In fact, I suggest that we should start a movement where we encourage scientists or pro-science editors to post the above notice or a similar notice on their user pages and talk pages as a signal to a system that is refusing to listen. Comments?--Filll (talk) 05:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I basically agree, but with modifications. How about proposing a one month moratorium? All pro science editors simply stop editng for one month and abandon Misplaced Pages to the mob. If the result doesn't make the front page of the New York Times I'll bet..... It should cause the ArbCom members and Jimbo himself to stop and take notice. They need to take this matter seriously enough to establish an ArbCom Science Committee that can deal with questions like "Is homeopathy pseudoscience?" IOW a high level RfC that has binding consequences and creates policy. Such questions need to be settled. Then methods of effectively and quickly dealing with pushers of fringe POV who violate NPOV need to be developed.

May others propose other wording here? I'd like to see other versions on this page and then we can take a vote and begin to use the one we choose. -- Fyslee / talk 05:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Propose whatever you like. No rules, no deadlines, no preconceived outcomes. This was meant to be open; I'm curious to know the views of other science-oriented editors. Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages would go on without experts; it would be qualitatively worse, but it would still be at the top of most Google searches. I can only speak for the U.S., but many of the scientific "controversies" of the day (intelligent design, global warming, medical scams, etc) have their roots in widespread scientific illiteracy. Misplaced Pages is an incredibly powerful medium to counter that illiteracy. I would propose something diametrically opposite: Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to impress upon all of his or her colleagues the importance and value of participating in a medium like Misplaced Pages. Scientists are busy; they have to publish or perish, and ever since - I dunno - 22 January 2001 or so, this country's research investment has shrunk dramatically and it's not easy to keep an investigative career going. Misplaced Pages is free, volunteer work, but the more the inmates appear to be running the asylum, the more important it is for scientists and experts to volunteer their time and put up with the BS. Just my 2 cents - it's late, and I've had a few gin and tonics, so take it with a grain of salt. MastCell 06:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Motion to move to Citizendium. ~ UBeR (talk) 06:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• The main reason I stay is whatever I write shoots right up to the top of Google. I feel it is my duty as an expert in my field to put accurate information in that spot. But I sure as hell sympathize with you, and my field is not nearly as overrun with kooks and nutjobs as is any one of the sciences. Just my opinion, and I'm no more sober than MastCell. Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 06:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Good example of a defeatist attitude. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, that approach would be defeatist. Do you have a proposal for how to address the situation? Or do you feel there is no problem to be addressed? Raymond Arritt (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Experts should be given some leeway when dealing with topics in which they are well-versed. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Merovingian, I don't see that you are a regular contributor to scientific or healthcare articles, much less controversial ones. In spite of that, as an experienced admin, I'm hoping that you have an angle on this that might be enlightening to us beginners. What is your interest in this matter? -- Fyslee / talk 06:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• No, I am not an expert on anything in particular, not that that should exclude me from this conversation. I believe it is important to retain experts on real-life subjects. This issue should go beyond science, as well. They have the kind of knowledge and experience that is not easily duplicable. Calling for some kind of withdrawal or boycott is naive, frankly. Boycotts do little to help a problem; rather, they prolong any solution. On the contrary, more participation or active lobbying on the part of experts would be more helpful. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• You are definitely welcome. I am hoping you have some suggestions for a solution. These concerns aren't coming out of nowhere. We need some fundamental policy changes and enforcement provisions. Misplaced Pages needs to decide if it will become an authoritative resource, or remain an unreliable one. -- Fyslee / talk 06:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• As I said, experts should be given some more clout, if you will. Exactly how to do this cannot easily be defined without being inherently arbitrary. A side issue is identity. Not all users disclose their real identities, and maybe some experts wish to as well. Any policy to have experts put in a more powerful position (the word "powerful" being relative here) would be hard to enforce without some type of vetting system, so we don't have to deal with another Essjay controversy. But for the experts we do have and have verified, they need to be respected and listened to. To play the devil's advocate for a moment, however, this is not to say that they should have the final word on a given subject. Any expert scientist has his or her own motives, that much cannot be denied; we are all human, and most of us still have to make a living. They will still be subject to core Misplaced Pages guidelines, and I feel that that includes NPOV as well. If a fringe theory receives enough attention by credible sources, there is no reason to deny it space on Misplaced Pages simply because it is not a mainstream theory. Perhaps a structured type of group of experts meant for discussing certain fields should be set up. Obviously we'd need to get in touch with the Foundation, as I believe they are best able to coordinate something between online and real-world cooperation. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I've read some horrible stories about "experts" who were really hurt by off-Wiki attacks by the POV zealots out there. If I have to give my private information to edit here, I'm not going to edit. Think about the Scientology article. Who here would even dare go over there to clean up that mess? Not me. They are scary. And think about the sociopaths that inhabit Creationism, Abortion, and numerous other articles. If they knew who we were, they'd not stop at harming our reputations or worse. Not to sound paranoid, but these people ARE sociopaths. OrangeMarlin 15:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I understand your concern, as I have been pestered myself by off-wiki malcontents. It wouldn't be necessary to publicly identify yourself, but to just confirm your credentials to the Board or Jimbo, basically, anybody that can really be trusted, wouldn't be too bad, right? --Merovingian (T, C) 03:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think my motion is a defeatist attitude. I see it as an evolutionary process, if you will. Just as Nupedia transformed into Misplaced Pages, so should Misplaced Pages transform into Citizendium. The problems over which we quarrel today do not exist there. There's no need for a revolutionary process or profound changes to a dysfunctional system and its policies--just a simple move for those dedicated to providing accurate information. ~ UBeR (talk) 07:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• UBeR, I don't think M. was responding to you but rather to the original proposal. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, I know he wasn't. If you simply leave the project, then Merovingian may very well be correct. I was simply trying to explain why I think my idea shouldn't be considered a defeat. ~ UBeR (talk) 16:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• That would amount to abandoning the highest profile source to the cranks. Citizendium is a noble idea that will never begin to compete with Misplaced Pages for the top spot in searches, and that's what the public uses. This is a much larger vehicle that just needs fixing. No need to build the (much smaller) bridge all over again. -- Fyslee / talk 07:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• With that type of attitude, yes it will remain that way. The purpose, of course, is to dispel that kind of attitude and eventually bring that project to something that surpasses Misplaced Pages. Lets not kid ourselves, we're not working on some bridge that just needs some minor tweaks and adjustments--this is more akin to an I-35 we're working on. You are not going to fix things here in one fell swoop. You're talking about big changes, some of which are inherently against Wale's philosophies and ideals for Misplaced Pages. I've been looking around reading some the suggestions and can't help but notice the similarities between what they want and what Citizendium already has: appreciation and roles for its experts, flagged articles, accountability, reliability, accuracy, stability... ~ UBeR (talk) 17:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• As a finance professional, please change "scientist" to "expert." There are experts in fields that are not hard-sciences. PouponOnToast (talk) 15:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

* How about a one-week strike!!!!  :) Let's see what Jimbo has at the end of the week. OrangeMarlin 15:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Clearly this is an issue which a lot of people are concerned about. Is it entirely out of the question to push for a policy change or for specific new panel? Jefffire (talk) 16:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think a policy change is in the cards, and I'm not convinced one is even needed. Misplaced Pages already has some good policies but they're being ignored or perverted to other ends. Instead of WP:WEIGHT, we get a fatuous "some say the earth is round, others say it is flat" version of neutrality. Instead of WP:IAR, which says that the good of the encyclopedia is more important than rigid adherence to rules, we have endless process wonkery while the encyclopedia deteriorates (more like "ignore all facts, obey all rules"). It's more of a cultural issue than a policy issue. And cultures are much harder to change than policies. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I mostly agree, but with some minor disagreements: It's not something to be done out of principle but something scientists are forced to do out of pragmatism. Expert editors simply cannot effectively make edits to Misplaced Pages. The upward battle in attempting to do so is extremely stressful, and not enjoyable. I'm no scientist, but I am a college student and I have struggled to include basic information I learned in introductory college courses, based on college textbooks I currently have in my posessions and extensive research, as a hobby. Simply leaving Misplaced Pages is not a good thing because Misplaced Pages is a feedback loop whereby if expert editors leave, the whole thing will collapse into a jumble of nonsense in an even worse condition than it is in now.

Scientists firmly standing against Misplaced Pages's model is a good thing, provided that they either:

1. Strongly voice their condemnation of Misplaced Pages together in an attempt at gaining consensus for policy reforms.
2. Continue making the same contributions on outside wikis based on a different model, such as Citizendium.

In my experience with Citizendium so far, the model seems to suffer from the exact opposite flaw of Misplaced Pages, in that its registration process is unnecessarily tedious, its complex process is difficult to follow and poorly worded such that it discourages "non-expert editors" from being able to quickly and easily join and make edits. An appropriate step towards progress would be a combination of the Misplaced Pages model and the Citizendium model. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 16:51, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding defeatism: It is only defeatism if this proposal is created by a lack of conviction. Given the amount of work a lot of people have put into stopping fringe theories, I don't think anyone's conviction here ought to be in question.

It is not defeatism if the problems are based on experience, reason, and evidence. See Outside scientific studies confirming Misplaced Pages failure on WP:FAIL. This proposal is based on a rational response to these real observed problems, not mere emotional weakness.

As a few studies have noted, Misplaced Pages has the stability that it does because of a core group of editors regularly watching certain pages. Based on this, an "expert revolt" or "boycott" would definitely have a noticeable, meaningful impact on getting the issue of fringe sources clarified.

For those that do, however, wish to call this "defeatism," based on the University of Minnesota's recommendations, here is one suggestion other than a boycott: A "Greylist" of sources that are usually used as unreliable sources, since fringe-pushers tend to use sources from the same URLs, regularly. Regularly consulting this "greylist" possibly in combination with one of the pro-Science Wikiprojects suggested here may be a more effective way of dealing with fringe. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• The withdrawal of the scientists and intellectuals to effect a crisis on Misplaced Pages? -- I like it! Whether in the long-term this would be "good" or "bad" for WP is debatable, and I could offer several arguments to support either possibility, as well as an argument or two that this move would be a zero-sum gambit, yet I think it's worthwhile. Let WP sink to the depths of scientific illiteracy; let it become a para-wiki or a conservapedia; let the smog of smugness that clouds the eyes of those who fail to see that WP is indeed dysfunctional be lifted. •Jim62sch• 21:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• As a believer in both Misplaced Pages and in science (although not somebody with any specialized scientific training), I obviously don't like this, since it would substantially weaken Misplaced Pages. But I also think (again as somebody who believes in science and who rolls his eyes at such notions as intelligent design, homeopathy, and their ilk) that you might be overstating the extent of the problem. For example, the lead of global warming says "While individual scientists have voiced disagreement with the conclusions of the IPCC, the overwhelming majority of scientists working on climate change are in agreement with the conclusions." which seems to me to be a (just) victory for the forces of science. The lead of homeopathy says "No plausible mode of operation has been identified for homeopathy and its underlying principles are "diametrically opposed" to modern pharmaceutical knowledge. Claims for the efficacy of homeopathy beyond placebo are unsupported by the collective weight of scientific and clinical studies and homeopathy is considered to be "scientifically implausible" and pseudoscientific." which seems to me to be another such victory. The lead of intelligent design says "The unequivocal consensus in the scientific community is that intelligent design is not science but pseudoscience." Yet another victory. You're winning. You're only winning because you take a lot of time to counter the fringies, perhaps, but you are winning. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 00:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't agree with this. Comparing what Misplaced Pages was when I started, to what it is now, it is infinitely better now. And yes I mean not only the articles, but also the hierarchy. There have been useful steps taken to curb the most heinous abuses. And the community openness to introspection is only one of those. There will always be people on the edges, and we should not only include proponents of alternative medicine, but also proponents of the idea that our encyclopedia should only include peer-reviewed sources. That might be fine if we were writing the PDR or a Physics textbook, but we aren't. There are POV-pushers from *both* sides of this debate. To characterize it as a "We-are-right-you-are-wrong" avoids the central problem, which is, we do allow minority viewpoints. Hard scientists need to accept that or make an attempt to change policy. Only consensus will change policy. If consensus cannot be achieved, then the alternative is to accept the status quo even if it grates.Wjhonson (talk) 04:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposal 2

It definitely needs tweaking and shortening, so make Proposal 3, 4, 5, etc... -- Fyslee / talk 06:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The ArbCom does not exist to dictate content disputes. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It's about time it consulted scientists and got involved. The reputation and atmosphere of Misplaced Pages are at stake. We are driving away excellent editors, while kooks are a dime a dozen, and they are protected. -- Fyslee / talk 06:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Kookery generally can't stand up against the necessity for good referencing. Even without experts, most editors (be they administrators or not) should be able to enforce our core guidelines. --Merovingian (T, C) 06:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree. The problem is that it isn't working, or at least it is so difficult that good editors get burned out, while some admins protect the kooks, even unbanning them, adopting them, and then protecting them. -- Fyslee / talk 06:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

So, the development of processes to deal with fringe theories and their proponents and their proponents' behavior (not to mention the behavior of Misplaced Pages members such as admins that would condone unwarranted attention for such things) does need to go forward, but I highly doubt that a boycott by experts in those fields will help. Bringing attention to a discussion should give as many users a chance to comment as possible, not that everybody will care, but some fresh ideas can be culled. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As you can see from my link to the "Is homeopathy pseudoscience?" discussion, we have no high level place to discuss such matters. An ordinary RfC doesn't cut it. Science isn't bound by consensus, and in such matters science needs to be given the deciding vote whenever it is feasible. Seriously doubtful situations are another matter, which is not the subject here. -- Fyslee / talk 07:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I would see nothing wrong with establishing a place to discuss that. Please see my longer post in the first section for more. In short, some serious work needs to be done to set something like that up. --Merovingian (T, C) 07:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As a way to draw attention and more eyeballs to this discussion, I have posted a version of the "notice" to my user and talk pages and invited others to do so as well, with a link back to this page. I think some other mechanisms, like a special Science Committee with administrative powers and input to the Senior levels of the Wiki hierarchy might be helpful. I am not sure a boycott will be necessary, but a widespread threat of a boycott might be enough to get someone's attention. We need to brainstorm to think of ideas on what to do. Here are some:

• a high level committee to deal with science issues and pseudoscience issues or disputes
• renaming NPOV as something else so that people do not mistake NPOV as being neutral, and therefore supportive of pseudoscience
• rewriting the NPOV guidelines to make it more clear that Misplaced Pages will not and can not be a platform for the promotion of pseudoscience over real science
• mechanisms to encourage pseudoscience proponents and trolls etc to go to related Wikis such as Paranormal Wiki where they can promote their material without restrictions that they view as unfair, such as NPOV or interaction with real science and real scientists. Note: the Paranormal Wiki might need to be renamed to accommodate alternative medicine and some other WP:FRINGE science areas, which might object to be classified as "paranormal"
• possibly some sort of special expert status, possibly from vetting, potentially confidential so that people who want to remain anonymous can still have that benefit but be recognized as experts (I have a few graduate degrees in the sciences, but I am loathe to drop my anonymity and I know several others in the same boat)

Here is my proposed viral marketing notice for this page. Please feel free to copy it to your user and talk pages:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from the project.

The bureaucracy should either take corrective steps to fix this situation, or else suffer the eventual loss of huge amounts of valuable talent and volunteered resources.

If you agree with this statement, post it to your pages, and pass it on. (discuss this here)

--Filll (talk) 14:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The problems are not confined to 'science'. 'Philosophy' has long since been abandoned to the wolves. 'Religion' is near hopeless. The Christianity article devolved from an FA article, to GA, to barely B-class because of in fighting, POV-pushing and nonsense. I spent 2007, in that part of Misplaced Pages and — by reputation — had thought the 'science' side was the bastion of sanity. Even outside reviewers have written that the 'science' articles were superior: for example, the infamous 'Nature' comparison to Britannica. To a very productive editor who left Misplaced Pages over the destruction of the Christianity article, I said as - a parting comment - that:

Misplaced Pages eats its young, no doubt about that. I do not know if it will survive in the long term. I'm afraid I spend time at Misplaced Pages with a cheerful apathy and yet I'm endlessly surprised by the destructive behavior: if Misplaced Pages were a person, I'd say it had a severe personality disorder.

Now, I find the same problem exists with the science articles. Having spent a month on the science side, my preconceptions have been shredded. Science is in worse shape; my opinion, but also my observation. I agree with Filll (talk · contribs). Everyone take a wikibreak for a month. The project is entirely volunteer-driven, and everyone deserves a vacation. Nevertheless, I don't think it will cure the problem. I think Misplaced Pages hit its peak in 2007 and will begin its decline this year. Like so many Internet fads, this one will pass. Yahoo and AOL are imploding. MySpace and Facebook will peak this year. Misplaced Pages will have company. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 14:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Anything about finance or economics is overrun with goldbugs and other sorts of fringe wierdness. PouponOnToast (talk) 15:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Just for everyone's info, there is this discussion - Evidence Misplaced Pages is failing at the village pump. A perennial discussion, yes, but relevant. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• How about some sort of "certified science" label for articles that have been through review by the science community, and judged to be reasonable and balanced and following NPOV carefully. There could be special permission to protect these sorts of articles more aggressively to keep them at a high standard. Other articles might be good, but might have some pseudoscience in them and would not get certified.--Filll (talk) 16:10, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The pie in the sky is not attainable. The problem is not even acknoledged, so let's not skip step 1. PouponOnToast (talk) 16:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think we first have to hit the mule on the head with a 2x4 to get its attention. And we should have proposals to suggest once we get the mule's attention.--Filll (talk) 16:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Even though I am not, by any stretch of the imagination, a big contributer to these articles in question, I fully support this month long break. Though most of my editing is simply reverting POV edits and being cranky on talk pages, I have always wondered what would happen, especially if we truly got all the editors on board, if everyone with an ounce of integrity decided to stop defending these articles from the constant onslaught of "fringies" who are seemingly adored by a good number of admins. This whole enterprise would be even better if the articles, that everyone here seeks to protect and uphold, have an outside review during the period everyone is gone (drinking). The intelligent design article will read like a DI blog post. Water memory will be proven through cherry picking of unreliable sources. Evolution will be "just a theory" and Darwin will be described as some of a minion of Satan. Good stuff. Baegis (talk) 16:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• An idea similar to a "certified science" label - see Misplaced Pages:Flagged revisions - seems to be moribund. Zenwhat (talk · contribs) has been busy making some interesting contributions to the Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages is failing article. See Outside scientific studies confirming Misplaced Pages failure which says, in part:

For instance, in order to address the problem of unreliable sources and fringe views, there could be the creation of a "greylist" which automatically generates a list of articles which likely contain inappropriate edits, based upon the likelihood of certain sources to be regularly misused again and again. This could more appropriately address extreme violations of WP:NPOV and WP:V, which are not captured by bots, while at the same time allowing humans to make the final decision as to what constitutes a "reliable source" or not.

and

...Misplaced Pages's ability to prevent obvious vandalism is intriguing, but that alone is not how Misplaced Pages's success is defined since the problems stem from system bias and erosion of good content, which, unlike random vandalism, cannot simply be addressed through the use of large networks of bots crawling Misplaced Pages and making automatic reverts according to a set algorithm.

Anyway, as always, there is a lot of typing going on, but will anything get done? The academics seem to see failure. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 16:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Here is another idea. How about a Science Guild, with levels? The top level might be certified experts with credentials. A secondary level might be those invited into the guild by those in the top level as pro-science editors and somewhat trustworthy. People in the guild might be accorded special powers or consideration.--Filll (talk) 16:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The bigger problem is that Wikpedia is all voluntary. No one has to do anything, so establishing a super user with certified credentials doesn't mean the super user is going to step in and do anything. We are barely replacing Admins because of attrition. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 17:01, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• Put on your thinking cap and see if you can come up with constructive suggestions to improve the current situation.--Filll (talk) 18:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of quacks\cranks\kooks

A completely open wiki-process appears to fail because it makes the false assumption that a minority of bad editors (vandals, trolls, and just general nutcases) cannot overwhelm a majority of good editors. An open question: Can we make a similar assumption regarding the sample of "expert editors"?

The idea of supporting a more closed system like Citizendium or a "Science Guild" as proposed above seems to rely on the assumption that the proportion of bad average editors to good average editors is larger than the proportion of bad expert editors to good expert editors. If we have a more closed system, a Science Guild, etc., some theoretical problems that could arise in certain fields:

• People with degrees in Feminist studies, Black studies, Queer studies, etc., vandalizing various articles
• Neomarxians, Austrian economists, Sociologists, and Ecologists vandalizing articles on economics
• Economists vandalizing articles on Ecology and Sociology
• Theologians vandalizing articles on religion
• Philosophers -- they'd probably vandalize just about everything (just kidding)
• Wackos with Ph.D.s in medical fields vandalizing articles on Homeopathy and Alternative medicine

As a demonstration of how this problem might arise (and certainly would in rare cases), there is User:Pundit who is a visiting professor at Harvard (I verified his credentials), but at the same time he made this absolutely absurd edit and has argued that Cannabis Culture magazine is a "reliable source."

Having an education, such as a Ph.D., generally grants a greater absolute degree of trustworthiness, but not a guaranteed degree of trustworthiness. (See quackwatch) More importantly, does the attainment of a degree ensure a greater relative degree of trustworthiness, compared with others of the same educational achievement? If not, then how could such a policy improve Misplaced Pages's margin of error?

And should expert editors have broad authority or only authority over their particular field? How narrowly should "their particular field" be? On one article I saw a debate where some people claimed that a professor wasn't a reliable source, because the article was on Islamic history, but he was a professor just on Islamic theology, not specifically on "Islamic history"! Is that too narrow? ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 17:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Under the current system, one or two vandals or POV warriors or trolls etc can overwhelm many mainstream editors. What is needed is a new approach to this and a willingness to try different kinds of remedies and tools. For example, one thing that is often tried is to restrict the editing of the mainspace page by a problem editor, but to let them run rampant on talk pages at will. This really is just about as disruptive and upsetting, and frankly not a useful remedy on places like homeopathy. Of course, "experts" can still cause problems. That is why a self-governing Guild, which can control or monitor the actions of its members, with levels of "trustedness" is appropriate. As an outside check, the products of the guild should be eventually peer-reviewed by outside bodies as feedback to the WP community at large that the Guild has not gone off the deep end. --Filll (talk) 18:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Counter-proposal

I mentioned this above, but I feel like putting it in a blue-bordered box like everyone else:

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to impress upon all of his or her colleagues the importance and value of participating in a medium like Misplaced Pages.

The reason that WP:WEIGHT is so hard to uphold is that minority views are represented on Misplaced Pages far in excess of their representation in the real world. This creates a skewed perspective, where ideas like AIDS denialism or secondhand-smoke-is-harmless are considered reasonable alternative views rather than discredited fringism. The solution is not to go on strike, which would dilute the accurate representation of these topics even further, but to convince scientists, researchers, and generally knowledgeable folk of the need to contribute. Such people tend to be skeptical of an encyclopedia that anyone can edit - for good reason - but with increased participation these problems will go away. MastCell 18:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this in principle, except that we should try to consider some other options to try to improve the situation if we cannot recruit enough mainstream scientists, or recruit them fast enough, or if they find Misplaced Pages to be an unfriendly environment.--Filll (talk) 18:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it even the right option to try and fix the problem by weight of numbers? It could just turn out a big-ass edit war. Jefffire (talk) 18:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The idea is to encourage knowledgeable people to volunteer to share that knowledge via Misplaced Pages. It sounds like the best option to me. MastCell 00:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Small-scale strike

I was thinking that if the idea of a complete abandonment of Misplaced Pages (or the controversial areas at least) by experts seems a bit extreme at first, we might wish to try enacting it on a much smaller scale. For instance, we could start with one article. Encourage everyone who's been working on defending the expert POV on that article to give it a break for a week or two (both on the article and talk page), and then we'll see how quickly and how badly it deteriorates.

One article I think might be perfect for this is Homeopathy. If you've had any experience with it, the reasons why should go without saying. For those that haven't, it's an extremely controversial article that was eventually pushed up to Good Article status a while back. It's been protected for long bouts of time, and recently came off of one long protection. Now might be a good chance to see how it falls from its GA version (or even the last protected version) when the homeopaths have their way with it. --Infophile 18:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rather than a month-long total wikipedia boycott, how about nominating 8 or 10 specific articles (evolution, intelligent design, homeopathy, abortion, atheism - whatever) and letting just those articles succumb to mob rule for a month. Just as effective in terms of making a point, perhaps easier to make a "story" out of for the media, and a lot less of a mess to clean up eventually (which I'm sure is what would happen). Snalwibma (talk) 18:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with both of these. And homeopathy was an article I particularly had in mind. I would give it longer than 2 weeks however, to let the editing really pick up steam. At least a month or two would be great. It would be an interesting experiment to watch what happens. Mainstream POV editors would still have to watch the article to minimize mainstream edits, and prevent other editors inadvertently wandering into the experiment and then fighting against the FRINGE elements. Let the FRINGE elements have the article to themselves for a good long time; we can always revert any damage.

I suspect that SOME of the WP:FRINGE elements are only here to fight, and not to actually create anything at all or be productive. I think some will not be bothered to edit at all if there is no fighting to be done, because all they are interested in is fighting. I would be interested in testing that hypothesis.--Filll (talk) 18:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to start now then with that article. Anyone else who wants is of course free to join me, though I won't be informing any new users about it until we have a consensus that it's a good idea. --Infophile 18:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have serious doubts about this. The fringers would soon get wind of the experiment. The saner ones would encourage the others to back off (or even make constructive edits) to foil it. We'd end up with egg on our face, and the fringers would get to say "See? They're whinging about nothing." Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a concern. Maybe we should decide off-wiki which article to stop editing. On the other hand, I'm not sure this lot has the foresight to try to foil our plans like this, especially with how frequently new users join their side. --Infophile 18:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have actually proposed this exact same scenario a few times to the "fringers" in homeopathy a few times over the last few weeks. The "fringers" I talked to were anxious to "give it a go" (like Whig for example), since they are positive that the pro-science people are just insane and do not really know what neutral means and NPOV. I am positive if we gave Whig a reprieve from his currently impending doom at his 3rd RfC, he and several others would jump on board to promote the "Truth".

Believe me, they are just as annoyed with the pro-science lobby as we are with them. They would revel in a chance to get rid of us so they could really write these articles the way they should be written. And why not give them a chance to see how they do? I had previously suggested a period of 6 months of unfettered editing.--Filll (talk) 19:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I think 6 months might be too long. We could probably make a good point with just one month. --Infophile 19:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Only partially in jest

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course is for all editors to work together to fix it.

I'm not saying that fixing it will be easy though. If it were, we'd have already done so. --Ronz (talk) 18:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Although this is a great idea, there is a core problem or imbalance that several pro-science editors have noticed. We have a situation where pseudoscience is being favored over real science, and pseudoscience promoters and trolls are being treated with kid gloves and nurtured, while real scientists are being driven off. Articles are turning into terrible battlegrounds between pro-science and anti-science forces, and the anti-science forces often get the upper hand or just overwhelm the pro-science forces, or exhaust them. It is because there is a HUGE group of editors on Misplaced Pages that do not want science here, and want to spread pseudoscience, and the bureaucracy enables this and protects it.--Filll (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be difficult to fix a problem that very few will even admit exists. A good number of the people in power positions, for whatever reason, are failing to address the problem. Also, many of the people on the fringe side are looked at as the scrappy little underdogs and in need of admin support. Because who doesn't root for the underdog when he is taking on the big, bad establishment? Except for those whose reasoning is grounded in reality. Baegis (talk) 18:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This is exactly what I was thinking - except, I'm not sure that wikipedia is "dysfunctional". It's still young, and works fairly well, in terms of its intended purpose. It's not a reliable source, so why hold it to that standard in the first place? Tparameter (talk) 00:30, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly correct Baegis. That is why we need two things:

• Ideas on creative ways to try to help the current system improve
• A big wakeup call to the establishment to help implement any ideas; an alarm basically, to let the establishment know there is a problem that needs to be addressed (as has happened a few times previously)--Filll (talk) 19:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Undue weight to the success of Misplaced Pages

Given the level of dysfunction that has come to prevail on Misplaced Pages, and that anonymous volunteers’ - who do not benefit because of their good work – labor on Misplaced Pages, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist is to withdraw from all stress inducing work and maximize leisure time pleasure. The principled scientist should treat the project as a fun hobby.

The community of hobbyist-editors ought not to concern themselves with the success or failure of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the labor of valuable talented volunteers. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the good will of readers as inferior and worthless articles predominate. Misplaced Pages is an experiment that may not succeed.

Be a WikiSloth. Spend time with your family. Write real papers and real articles in the real world. On Misplaced Pages, enjoy yourself.

• I think that we may be placing undue weight on the success of Misplaced Pages, itself. What if this version of the collaborative model fails? Why should we subsidize a trouble model,with excessive time and labor? Would anyone here remain at their place of work - where you are actually paid and recognized / credited - if this level of dysfunction existed? In the cartoon strip Dilbert, you could be a 'Wally'. Or, you could try to help make your employer better. Or, you could find a better employer. Misplaced Pages isn't work. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 21:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
• Hear, hear! --Merovingian (T, C) 03:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think this may be my favorite idea of all. How about the following revision? Raymond Arritt (talk)

Given the dysfunction that now prevails in the Misplaced Pages community, and the fact that effort on Misplaced Pages is anonymous, unrecognized, and unrewarded, the most appropriate course for a principled scientist or other expert is to avoid all stress inducing aspects of the project and maximize leisure time pleasure. They should treat the project as a fun hobby and stay away from potentially stressful activities such as resolving disputes or enforcing policy.

These hobbyist-experts ought not to concern themselves with the success or failure of Misplaced Pages. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the labor of talented volunteers. Perhaps Misplaced Pages will squander the good will of readers as inferior and biased articles increasingly predominate. Such matters are of no consequence to the hobbyist-expert.

Be a WikiSloth. Spend time with your family. Write real papers and real articles in the real world. On Misplaced Pages, enjoy yourself.

I like the revision. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 04:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Another crazy idea

I suspect that a good fraction of our problems is the name NPOV for the goal for how articles should be written. As Jimbo has said before (and I am looking for this quote), the word "neutral" in this name is misleading and creates a lot of confusion, because we do not want our articles to be "neutral" but "balanced" in a certain way, and not balanced so that WP:FRINGE views have equal weight to mainstream scientific views.

I think that NPOV should be renamed. Called it "Mainstream Point of View" or "Balanced Point of View" or "Conventional Point of View" or "Dominant Point of View" or something. NPOV is an awful name, and creates probably 75% of the problems, I have observed.--Filll (talk) 00:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a hard time buying this. The people who are the problem editors already aren't trying to achieve what we describe as a neutral point of view. Changing the name would help, really? I doubt it. Undue weight is already reasonably well explained. Friday (talk) 00:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It would help. We need something that clearly says, the mainstream dominates. Period. If you don't like it, then, make like the birds and flock off.---Filll (talk) 01:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Dysfunctional?

If you hold wikipedia to the standard of reliable sources, then it's dysfunctional purely by its nature. But, it's not a reliable source. Basically, it's young, and it functions fairly well, and seems to be improving. It's a great place to get basic information on a variety of topics - a place to start studying a topic. Moreover, as a platform, it's very young. Some people aren't cut out for it, however - whether they are scientists or otherwise. Of course, everyone who leaves has their own reasons, but it seems like most of the vocal ones that I've seen tend to leave because they can't function without more control than they can garner. Tparameter (talk) 00:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I do not think you understand the situation.--Filll (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe that I do. My understanding is that in order to accept most of these discussions, first you have to accept that dysfunction "prevails" on wikipedia. My point is that the premise is debatable. Tparameter (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We can either give up and accept things as they are, or we can try to improve things.--Filll (talk) 02:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Since that's at least your third response to me (in two different threads of the same or similar topic) without addressing the points I've made in the slightest, and since you did not ask for clarification, I guess I can assume that you don't want to discuss my points substantively. That's okay - but, I'm left slightly (very slightly) curious as to why you would waste your time in the first place. With regard to frustrating discussions on wikipedia, I suppose I could thank you for the irony. ;] Anyway, all the best. Tparameter (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I am glad to respond to your points, once I am sure that you understand where this page is coming from. I responded with a long post on Raymond arritt's talk page. As long as you have read it and understood it, then if you have any further comments or questions then please post them and I will try to address them, if I can understand them (to be honest I cannot quite understand what you are saying above).--Filll (talk) 03:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Another crazy idea

What about if some articles require you to pass an NPOV quiz first before you are "certified" to edit?--Filll (talk) 01:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd be interested to see if any of the current "editors" on the Homeopathy article could pass this test. Baegis (talk) 01:47, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Apart from other concerns, that strikes me as a very easy quiz to game. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 01:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You are quite right. But it would be a start. It is not the only remedy we should consider. I think people who cannot or will not abide by NPOV should be rapidly barred from editing until they can demonstrate that they are able and willing to abide by NPOV.--Filll (talk) 01:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That is what gave me the idea. I am positive that almost all of the people I have seen having trouble with the mainstream consensus on creationism, intelligent design, homeopathy and similar kinds of articles does not know what NPOV is. I have seen this over and over and over. If these people had to demonstrate a knowledge of NPOV, and could be rapidly barred from editing even the talk page because of failure to understand NPOV, then things would be far less tense and pressured and we might actually do more creative productive work.

I suspect that most of these people are here only to fight. However, those that want to be productive but cannot work within NPOV are frustrated over and over and become embittered and it consumes a huge amount of community effort to get rid of them. It is not that their material is not interesting and entertaining, but it is not suitable for Misplaced Pages. That is why I am trying to find other creative outlets for them so they can be productive too.--Filll (talk) 01:57, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A less aggressive proposal

Just brainstorming. Tparameter (talk) 03:03, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Should one discard NPOV?--Filll (talk) 03:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Tparameter (talk) 04:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

No one wants to waste time gaining the trust of wingnuts. We want to get rid of the junk. Why err on the side of caution? For example, do we have to talk through every 'perpetual motion machine'? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 03:21, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a 'perpetual motion machine' would be considered to be qualified for the cautious approach. On the other hand, I've seen MIT research scientists classified as "nutjobs" within their field of expertise. That would clearly be a case to use caution instead of blatant attacks on a true intellectual. As for "wingnuts", I would say that homeopathy and the like are much more likely to attract moonbats. Tparameter (talk) 04:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Pretty good. The last sentence doesn't square with real-world experience, though it may be helpful in a Machiavellian sense. Raymond Arritt (talk) 04:16, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A principled scientist should learn how to explain science. It would be just as wrong to withdraw from editing WP as to withdraw from teaching science courses to nonscientists. There is no need to "label" pseudoscience, just to explain it. Anyone who claims to be an expert should be able to give an object description of even the most absurd theory. an objective description will make it plain to everyone but the convinced anti-science POV. There is no need to resort to labels to explain things to a unprejudiced reader. (and no hope at all that a label convince the prejudiced to look at things more scientifically). Homeopathy (for example), explained in any straightforward way, is obvious nonsense, and I do not see what is gained by trying to say it is pseudoscience--it will only give the impression that the scientist is the bigot. Those who resort to opprobrium always give an impression that it is they who are prejudiced. The thing to do with the ignorant is to teach them, and those who want to defend science have the obligation to learn how to do it patiently. DGG (talk) 05:23, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

But what to when the ignorant insist on remaining ignorant, and fight objective descriptions tooth and claw? I agree that labeling things as pseudoscience may not be effective (even when incontestably correct). But getting an accurate, straightforward account of these topics into Misplaced Pages is nearly impossible in the face of opposition from determined advocates of nonsense -- and the administrators who shelter them. Raymond Arritt (talk) 05:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)