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This article was nominated for deletion on September 17, 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Agents

Some Agents of Foreign tourist give the gloomy picture of India to invite them in India. When tourist came in India, they see the reality and find what is the difference between Babri Masjid Dispute and Ram Janma Bhoomi. Babar, Humau and All Englishmen from UK were hardly 1,00,000 and controlled the entire country with population of many Millions, Billions and no body know how many Mir Jafars are there?

Article quality

This is not even an article. It's a bunch of half-facts haphazzardly thrown together. This is an important topic and should be addressed appropriately. That image of the slumbs in Bombay is unsourced and should/will probably be deleted. There are many CreativeCommons licensed images of slum dwellings in India on Flickr; the author should probably utilize those. AreJay 17:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC) In the article it says "India has more than 836 million people living on less than 50 cents ($2 in PPP) a day according to a recent report". That means more than 80% of indian population is well below poverty, which is completely wrong. Also it says "Official figures estimate that 27.5% of Indians lived below the national poverty line in 2004-2005." which is about right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.129.111 (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

India has been judged as the sixth most dangerous country

• http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=72099

India 6th most dangerous country for kids: Poll

New Delhi, August 7: India has been judged as the sixth most dangerous country for children in the world, according to a recent poll. Afghanistan, Palestinian territories, Myanmar and Chechnya were placed better than India in the poll conducted by Reuters Alertnet, a humanitarian news website run by Reuters Foundation, Rajya Sabha was told today.

During the survey, the website asked more than 110 aid experts and journalists to highlight the most dangerous places for children. The first five dangerous countries are Sudan, Northern Uganda, Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq and Somalia, Minister of State (independent charge) for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury said while replying to a written question.

The facts that have been taken into account for the poll survey include the children involved in armed conflict, the psychological trauma experienced by children caught up in violence, the children living in poverty and forced to work to support themselves and their families and malnutrition among children, the minister said.

vkvora 14:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

This article, together with Standard of Living in India are disgusting and offensive. They are completely out of proportion with reality. Granted, there is a lot of poverty in India, but why is INDIA singled out? Why isn;t there a "poverty in Lesotho"? Poverty in Guatemala, or poverty in New Guniea????????How many Indians will it take to bash our country into the ground?????Hkelkar 13:05, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Proposed deletion

The speedy deletion reason given does not fall within the criteria for speedy deletion. I am converting the tag to a {{prod}} tag. If the proposed deletion tag is removed, the next step is to take it to AFD. — ERcheck (talk) 13:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the prod tag

Thanks ERcheck - I've already removed speedy tags and notified the user for the same reason - though apparently he didnt believe me. I've also removed the prod tag. The rationale for the prod seemed to be 1) That India was being singled out with this article, 2) the article had had no significant edits in months and 3) it is unsourced. I removed the tag as

1. India is not being singled out at all (see Poverty in Australia, Poverty in Africa, Poverty in the United States, Poverty in Appalachia etc etc...)
2. This is blatantly false and even if true is hardly a rationale for deletion and
3. The article is sourced

I am not advocating the article in any way other than I believe the speedy tag was misplaced and the prod reasoning either made in bad faith or (most likely) simply misguided. Please take to WP:AfD - Glen 14:20, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Controversies???

The section is laughable. It cites ONE opinion from some obscure author as fact. YOu need MULTIPLE SOURCES to establish a "controversy" per WP:Reliable Sources (see multiple sources part).Please find multiple sources to establish this as a "controversy".Hkelkar 19:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree that the section is "laughable". First of all, I'm not convinced that the authors are "obscure". One of them is from the World Bank. Secondly, the text does not assert that one side of the controversy is right or wrong. It simply asserts that there are differing opinions. Thirdly, it seems quite reasonable to believe that this controversy exists in India. As the authors say on page 3 of the referenced paper, "This debate is far from unique to India. The worldwide controversy about globalization and its effects on poverty and inequality has followed much the same lines as the internal debate in India."

I can look for other sources but I think you are misunderstanding what is being said. I can easily believe that one side of the controversy (the government, no doubt) argues that poverty has been reduced significantly whereas the other side (presumably the opposition) argues that parts of India have left the rural and urban poor behind.

We have this sort of debate here in the United States. Why wouldn't a similar debate exist in India?

I have to admit that the "poverty increased or decreased" is my wording and might not be accurate. The debate may not be so much about poverty increasing or decreasing so much as it is about whether poverty was ameliorated as much as it "should have been" given the spectacular growth of the Indian economy in the 1990s.

--Richard 20:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. Then plz find multiple sources that attest to a "controversy". Both sides of the debate (including that of the gov'min') needs to be represented, including those that debunk these (frankly ridiculous in my opinion) claims. It is true that the poverty issue in the United States is contentious. However, I point you to the section Poverty in the United States#Controversy. You will see that the section is MUCH MORE NPOV with all sides presented dispassionately. In contrast, this section is a sad stub with a single POV, taken from a single source, touted as fact. I cannot believe that this can be accepted.Hkelkar 20:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that the text of the section is POV but I do agree that it could be worded better. I looked at the Poverty in the United States article and I agree the treatment there is much better. I'm playing with the idea that there needs to be a generic article that talks about the general controversy (i.e. the one that exists globally across nations). Each "Poverty in X" article could then discuss the special characteristics of the controversy in that particular country. For example, it's interesting to note that India is considered to have the some of the best statistics on poverty. Thus, discussions of statistical problems with poverty data can become quite involved since there is so much data available. As a parting note, I present here another source which describes the controversy as the "well-known poverty trend controversy" (third paragraph).

--Richard 21:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Well don't go away yet. If you have good sources to attest to the controversy then please put them in. You've got me intrested and I'd like to present as much reliable information regarding this issue from all sides of the debate. IF you find anything else then I'd be grateful if you could send me a holler and we can talk here.Hkelkar 21:14, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

65.218.132.157's recent edits to this article

My view is that Proverty in India should not be the page where we discuss Economic Liberalization and its imapct on poverty of a country. We need to concentrate more on socio-economic condition of India part of which is still poor. Debate about Economic Liberalization in India can be a totally new page. : --apurv 12:50, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

65.218.132.157, please sign your comments on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

I have been watching your recent edits and I was trying to guess at your motivations since they were obviously not mindless or POV vandalism. Thank you for the explanation, I understand better what you're driving at. I don't disagree. However, it is a bit rude to delete large portions of text without explanation. A better approach would be to leave a note here first and then wait for objection or discussion before proceeding.

Even if you wish to be bold, it would be kinder and gentler to copy the text you are deleting to this Talk Page so that others can evaluate what has been deleted and either re-insert it, re-use it elsewhere or accept the deletion.

Nobody owns this page. I cannot insist that the text you deleted be restored but neither can you insist that the text be deleted. Misplaced Pages operates by consensus. Let us discuss your edits and reach consensus on it.

BTW, would you be interested in helping to start an article on Economic Liberalization in India if it doesn't exist already?

--Richard 17:25, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

First let me thank you Richard for guiding me on how to do an edit. I am new to wikipedia and appreciate your help. Now. I have created a user for me to keep things simple. And I do not meant to be rude at all. What I did was little bit of cleaning and formatting as the article is very verbose and poorly formatted. Also i felt that we are trying to cover to many debates just in one article. Lets try to keep things simple. And we can discuss Ecnomic Liberalization and similar intresting topics on a new page.

--apurv 19:20, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Poverty in India

The high level of corruption found in government offices in India, including the police and judicial services largely affects the poor, director of the Tamil Nadu state judicial academy S Vimala said on Tuesday 7th November, 2006. vkvora 15:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

One opinion. There are countless opinions regarding this. Are we to list them all???We should put in a representative and notable cross-section only and that has been done. The issue of poverty & corruption has been discussed.Hkelkar 21:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

However, the point has been mentioned. Could you provide the exact citation?Hkelkar 21:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

One third or over 200 Million People of rural India lives on Rs 12.00 NSSO

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=33508

<<Removed copyrighted text added by User:Vkvora2001.>> — Ambuj Saxena (☎) 08:37, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not copyrighted. Poor knowledge of NSSO

vkvora 03:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Indian Poors secrifice their children for Prosperity.

Indian Poors secrifice their children for Prosperity.

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=79072

Parents sacrificing sons to be prosperous

Press Trust of India Posted online: Wednesday, January 03, 2007 at 1643 hours IST

Baripada (Orissa), January 3: Lured by promises of prosperity, a couple has allegedly sacrificed their two sons in Orissa's northern district of Mayurbahanj Padmalochan Gan and his wife Tuni had been advised by a 'tantric' to sacrifice their sons Harish (9) and Dipu (7) and hold a puja to set themselves on the path to prosperity, police said on Wednesday. The couple sacrificed their sons at their home at Tilapada village, about 55 km from here, after observing some rituals in the presence of the tantrik, identified as Jagannath Tudu, police said. Though the incident had occurred about a week ago it came to light only this morning, when the foul smell emanating from the decomposed bodies alerted the local people. They found the bodies of the two boys and informed the police, which have arrested the couple. The tantrik is absconding. The couple also has a two-month-old daughter, who had been spared, police said.

vkvora 04:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

India’s losing battle against hunger.

In the Global Hunger Index, India ranks 117th for the prevalence of underweight children. Only Bangladesh and Nepal are worse-off. vkvora 18:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The report was released by Keshav Desiraju and Subash Chandra Khuntia, Joint Secretaries in the HRD Ministry in presence of UNESCO Director Minja, who said that India has shown political will

There are 28 developing countries with over half a million out of school children each. Nigeria, Pakistan, India and Ethiopia are home to the largest number of 23 million," the Education for All Global Monitoring Report 2007 said. vkvora 18:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

NCEUS report

I see a contradiction in the recent report on the unorganized sector : A 2007 report by the state-run National Commission for Enterprises in the Unorganised Sector (NCEUS) found that 77% of Indians, or 836 million people, lived on less than 20 rupees per day (USD 0.50), with most working in "informal labour sector with no job or social security, living in abject poverty."

It doesn't specify whether they are measuring the earnings in absolute terms or purchasing power. If we assume that it is in purchasing power, it grossly exaggerates the current poverty level of about 27%. also the middle class is estimated to be atleast 300 million with purchasing power greater than 2. The number quoted in the report doesn't give scope for the presence of 300 million middle class. I would suggest that this entry be deleted.

Pionshivu —The preceding signed but undated comment was added at 23:12, August 25, 2007 (UTC).

Since the primary number that is quoted, "20 rupees", is in the national currency (Indian Rupees), the question of absolute versus PPP exchange rates does not arise (unless you are talking about intra-nation price disparities). The poverty level as per the Government of India is computed on the basis of money required to supply ~2200 calories worth of food per day and corresponds to a per day income of ~Rs. 10 - by that standard it is true that India's poverty level is around 25%. The World Bank uses yet another standard of poverty and comes up with another set of numbers. Of course there is no contradiction between these figures, since they are just using different income levels and not surprisingly ending up with different numbers.

By the way, you can access the executive summary of the NCEUS report and see the cited statistic on page 2 (bullet point 7). I'll add that reference to the article too.

:Actually 2400 and 2100 calories in rural/urban areas respectively Abecedare 00:04, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

The NECUS report is down. I am getting a "No web site is configured at this address". I agree with Pionshivu that this report seems to contradict a lot of figures. Does anyone have a mirror? I would like to read it. --61.12.4.26 22:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The report is available here, if it moves again, try looking at the main NCEUS website:http://nceus.gov.in/ -- SiobhanHansa 14:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

The Despite a veneer of expansionist, "superpower" government priorities like nuclear weapons and a space program, India has more than 836 million people living on less that 50 cents a day according to a recent report. statement in the lede also needs changing or deleting. It's currently an editorial expressed in very POV terms. I should think we can find notable experts on India's economy who express similar views, but we need to put any such statement in context (appropriate weight with other experts' views) and attribute it appropriately. -- SiobhanHansa 14:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Otolemur crassicaudatus's Misleading Images and Rash behavior

First,I would like to say that Otolemur crassicaudatus did not ask me to discuss this on the talk page. He also did not leave me a note telling me that this discussion was going on. He has tried to delete my userpage because I said "Being an American is priceless"

• User Otolemur crassicaudatus keeps deleting my contributions without giving a goood reason as to why. Any edit that ihave made to this page or another is always reverted by him. This is getting tiring for me and is hinderin my efforts on Wiki.

• Poverty in India is mostly rural. Most people who live under the poverty line live in rural places. No other picture on the povetry in India page shows rural poverty which dominates over urban poverty. The picture of homes represents poverty in rural India, because these homes are where poor farmers live. I have travelled in poor parts of India and I know firsthand that these homes house people under the poverty line. Not having an image of rural poverty is wp:undue since all the images show urban poverty which is only a fraction of poverty in India.

• I have explained this many times to Otolemur crassicaudatus but he still keeps removing my image with an excuse that "no place is mentioned"

• The beggar in Bodhgaya image does not accurately depict poor people in India because they do not look like this. This man is an exception To say that this man represents all poor people in India is very wrong. A small minority of Indias poor are disabled. Most work long hours fishing, farming or as construction workers or beggars. This picture shows a man whose legs have been broken. Unless a majority of indias poor have legs like this, the image is irrelevant and undue to the poverty in india page.

• This is just another attempt by Otolemur crassicaudatus to make India look bad. This user bears a strong hatred towards India and would like to deride the country as much as he can. Before, he has tried inserting an image of beggars washing their clothes in a puddle in the economy section of the India article which is featured. He still kept doing this even when I told him that the image represents the poorest of the poor in India and that every country has poor people, but most do not show an image of the dirt poor on their economy sections.

• Because the beggar in Bodhgaya image doesnot show the truth of Indias poor, andbecause user:otolemur insists on having a beggar image,i haveuploaded Image:India poor.jpg which is more representative of beggars in India rather than a man with broken legs

• Also, when I say low income housing, i do not mean housing for the lower class. I should have made it clear that these homes are of poor farmers who live below the poverty line. Hence, the image is appropriate for the page. It also shows rural poverty which is significantly greater than urban poverty Nikkul (talk) 21:19, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Nikkul's disruptive edits

• I nominated this user's userpage for deletion because he said "Being an American is priceless", I was not aware of the meaning of "priceless". I thought "priceless" is synonymous to "worthless". I was not aware that "priceless" means "invaluable". I was not aware of the meaning. That was my mistake.
• Off couse the begger image represent poverty. Many beggers have disabilities like that, this user cannot remove the image with useless excuses. Many beggers in India live worse condition than depicted here. Many beggers have no eyes, many beggers has no arms, many beggers have no limbs, it the truth, it it the reality. It is not right to conceal the situation of the poor people.
• The edits of this user has a strong anti-poor bias. The edits by this user always try to conceal the situation of poor people. It is not right to hate the poor.
• The farmer image is not well-indicative to the subject, because in every country around the world, rural people has low per capita income than urban people. An image of homes of farmer is not well-indicative to poverty, it do not representative for what "poverty" stands. "Poverty" means "condition of lacking full economic access to fundamental human needs such as food, shelter and safe drinking water". In an article depicting poverty, only those image should be present which describe this.
• Calling the begger image WP:UNDUE is blatant wikilawyering. Many beggers live worse condition than depicted. Begging is well-representative to poverty and the image is terribly appropriate.
• Many of this user's edits are very problematic. See . This user is continuously deleting the begger image with useless excuses that "since all beggars do not have messed up legs, this image is undue". It is ridiculus argument and applying undue here is blatant wikilawyering. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think both images should be kept.Bless sins (talk) 00:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

First I'd like User:OC to prove that many beggars have no eyes, arms and limbs. This is your POV. There is no source that will say most people living under the pov line are disabled

• You have blamed me of hating the poor? I have made schools for slum children. I have distributed clothing to slum dwellers. I have started guidance centers for the poor. DO NOT tell ME that I hate the poor!
• Since most of Indias poor live in RURAL areas and since MOST of them are in the AGRICULTRE industry, it DOES MAKE SENSE to have my image!
• If you want a picture of a beggar, I will find you one of a normal beggar. This beggar pic is irrelvant and undue. Nikkul (talk) 05:43, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, Nikkul, calm down. Debates in wikipedia can get heated. I'm sure OC didn't intend to hurt your feelings (and it may be his feelings are equally hurt).

Both you and OC need to be very, very polite.Bless sins (talk) 06:14, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Im sorry, I wasnt yelling. The capital letters are meant to highlight. I am very polite until a user accuses me of hating a group of people for whom I have spent valuable time and money in helping. Nikkul (talk) 06:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It was user Nikkul who started the incivil and impolite accusations on me. He called me "This is just another attempt by Otolemur crassicaudatus to make India look bad. This user bears a strong hatred towards India". In response to his comment, I made my comment. User Nikkul should comment on the edits, not on the editor. But this user directly made wild accustions on me. Otherwise I am polite until a user accuses me of hating India. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

This user called me "This user bears a strong hatred towards India and would like to deride the country as much as he can". I am polite until an user accuses me of hating India. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:48, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Begger image

The black and white begger image should be removed. The reason given for inclusion of this image is "added a more representative pic of a beggar". How this can be more appropriate? The Bodhgaya begger image is colour and will be good in this article. Bodhgaya begger image is more appropriate. Not all poor people live like this, this is ridiculus argument. Some poor people has TV on their home, so should we include an image of a TV in this article with a caption "A television in a low income home in India"? In an article for poverty, the Bodhgaya begger is terribly appropriate which depict what poverty stands for. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 08:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Here are some images , , , , , . The people in these images shown are living worse condition than the Bodhgaya beggar image. The reason given for deletion of this image is "since all beggars do not have messed up legs, this image is undue and inappropriate". This is a fallacious and anti-Individualistic argument and logical fallcy. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

In an article depicting poverty, those images should be given which clearly illustrate "the condition of lacking full economic access to fundamental human needs such as food, shelter and safe drinking water". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 18:33, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

ARE ALL BEGGARS LIKE THE MAN IN BODHGAYA? DO MOST OF THEM HAVE BROKEN LEGS? Is the fact that their legs are broken make them poor? Is the definition of poverty "a disability"? No! A disability does not have anything to do with poverty. There are so many rich people who are disabled. Disability does not show poverty! Nikkul (talk) 21:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

The picture of the old man does not really portray poverty in India. Its not obvious enough that this man is a poor beggar on the street when the young child with the twisted legs makes this quite obvious. The image of the young boy should remain, its symbolic of India and its a very touching image that reaches out to the reader and shows us what poverty in India is like at its most extreme. Its also relevant to text. Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. (talk) 00:48, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

All this fuss about a picture

Give it up, guys. It is folly to think that one picture can be representative of "poverty in India". Poverty in India, as in any other large country, must be multi-faceted. There are urban poor and rural poor. There are disabled poor and able poor. Poor children, poor adults and poor elderly.

If you wish to add more pictures to depict the various aspects of poverty in India, please do so. However, please do not attempt to find one single image which represents all of the aspects as this is an impossible task which will only lead to edit wars and disputes like this. I urge you to focus first on getting the article text to provide a wide-spectrum description of the causes and conditions of poverty in India and then try to find images which illustrate the points made in the text. Thus, if you have a section on "Rural poverty", a picture capturing that idea would be appropriate. Similarly, for "Urban poverty". Etc.

Hope this helps.

--Richard (talk) 06:10, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is true poverty is multi-faceted. Disabled poor, able poor, low income people having television in home, low income people having mobile phone, low income people having motocycle. But there are some judgements in adding image in an article which depict poverty i.e. "the condition of lacking full economic access to fundamental human needs such as food, shelter and safe drinking water". And only those images should be given which illustrate this. Not an image of a television on a poor people's home with a caption "Shown here a television in the home of poor people. In X country, Y% people has television like this". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I have never supported an image saying "Shown here a television in the home of poor people". You are putting words in my mouth. I am very opposed to this image because it is WP:Undue. If you want an image of a beggar, I will get you one. But this image implies that this is the state of beggars in India, which is not true. This is an exception.

Poverty is not related to disability. There are people who are super rich who are disabled. There is no clear relation between poverty and disability. Nikkul (talk) 11:06, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Poverty in Canada, Poverty in UK, Poverty in US have 1 image showing poverty and a bunch of graphs. NONE of them have an image of disabled poor. I have replaced that image with an image of a girl begging. This represents beggars more than the other image. Nikkul (talk) 11:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Stop making these useless excuses. You are just repeatating your flawed arguments. The image is appropriate as discussed above. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Page protected to stop edit warring over image

If I had an option, I would not have protected this page with the disabled beggar image. However, admins are not supposed to pick the revision of the page to protect. Protection of the page at its current revision IS NOT an endorsement of that particular revision. It is simply a recognition that edit warring is in progress and that this should stop.

Please reach a consensus as to what image(s) are appropriate for this page. You can then leave a message on my Talk Page or at WP:RPPP requesting unprotection.

--Richard (talk) 18:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I am very opposed to having the Bodhaya image there. It is wp:Undue. I have brought numerous images into wiki to satisfy OCs urge of having a beggar. This user WILL NOT COMPROMISE. He has made useless excuses like saying that since Ladakh is a small region, a beggar from ladhak would not qualify as poor in India. WHAT LOGIC IS THIS? Are some parts of India more Indian than others? Are indians from some parts more important than others? Is not an Indian from Bohgaya same as an Indian from Ladhak. This whole argument is baseless and is an effort by OC to portray Indophobia, of which he has been accused of numerous times on Misplaced Pages. I am truly offended that no one seems to recognize that the user is only trying to make India look bad by adding images to it that do not show a majority. Nikkul (talk) 20:32, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

"of which he has been accused of numerous times on Misplaced Pages" who? who accused me? Only two users accused me. One is this. This is another false claim by this user. This user has previously made several false accusations on me. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha. In defence, you are echoing my comments. It is you who are making useless excuses. The Bodhgaya beggar image has nothing undue. It is you who are making fallacious reasonings. The whole argument of your is baseless and your repeatatve accusation of Indophobia on me is also without foundatation. I wonder that this user is continuously making the same falawed argument and his ad hominem attack on me. I am going to issue this user a no personal attack warning. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This user has now chosen to defend his flawed argument by his ad hominem attack on me. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Neither are the poor in India all beggars nor, for that matter, are the beggars in India all poor. Confusing poverty with beggary is bad enough, failing -- or refusing -- to grasp the purely sensationalist nature of this image is worse. It does not inform, it does not educate. It shocks and disgusts. It's like adding pictures of dismembered bodies on a battlefield to a Military History page. And whatever Nikkul's faults, he is absolutely correct here that poverty in India is mostly rural. A crippled beggar on a city street is so far from being representative of "poverty in India" that I can't help thinking that this discussion is basically the result of an elaborate troll. rudra (talk) 07:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Bodhgaya Image Problem

I feel that the the Bodhgaya Beggar image does not represent poverty in India correctly because:

• The beggar in Bodhgaya image does not accurately depict poor people in India because they do not look like this. This man is an exception. To say that this man represents all poor people in India is very wrong. A small minority of Indias poor are disabled. Most living under the poverty line work long hours fishing, farming or as construction workers. This picture shows a man whose legs have been broken. Unless a majority of India's or even a fraction of the poor have legs like this, the image is irrelevant and undue to the poverty in india page.
• Poverty and Disability are not connected in any way. There are thousands of super rich people who are disabled. There is no connection between disability and poverty. Just like color of skin does not have anything to do with poverty, disability does not either
• There are 11 country articles on poverty

• These have NO images: Poverty in Pakistan, Poverty in Africa, Poverty in China, Poverty in Australia, Poverty in Canada, Poverty in Malaysia, Poverty in Switzerland, Social issues in Brazil,
• These have 1 image Poverty in the United States, Poverty in France
• The Poverty in India page is the only one with more than 1 image. And the only reason for this is because User:Otolemur crassicaudatus has brought more and more images onto the page.

• User:Otolemur crassicaudatus has insisted that a beggar image be used on the Poverty in India page. His initial reason to keep the Bodhgaya image was because he felt that beggars represent poverty. Since he insisted on a beggar image, I brought an image of a more typical beggar onto the page.. User:Otolemur crassicaudatus then complained that the black and white made the image unclear. I then added a color image of a beggar to satisfy this user. This image shows a beggar in ladhak. User:Otolemur crassicaudatus undid my revision because ladakh a tiny part and very diff. from rest of India What logic does this follow? Are certain places more Indian than other places in India?? This just goes to show that this user is unyielding.
• This user is being uncivil and unyielding. First of all, this user reported me to WP:ANI. The administrators reviewing his comments agreed that there was nothing wrong with what I was doing or saying and that the actual problem was the content. During this time, User:Otolemur crassicaudatus undid my picture and left his image there. I then removed his image and left mine out as well. I told him to hold off on adding either image because there was a discussion regarding the images on WP:ANI. Still, instead of yielding and having none of the disputed images, this user went ahead and added his image while leaving mine out. His reason for this was rv. blatant content blanking can be considered vandalism by POV editor. He has accused me of vandalism! This shows that this user is not interested in dispute resolution, rather, this user wants his way and will engage in uncivil behavior in order to get his way.
• This image is being used by User:Otolemur crassicaudatus to display his dislike of India and to mislead people into thinking that this is the plight of millions of poor Indians. This user has often added images showing extreme poverty to many India relating articles. Even though this user knows that poverty is present in every country and that extreme poverty is not a fair representation of the Indian economy, this user has previously tried to add an image of children washing their clothes in a mud puddle to the economy section of the India page. This user has added this image to the poverty section of the Economy of India page, when a graph showing poverty would make more sense.
• WP:Undue says:

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.

This can be applied to this because a very tiny fraction of poor people in India are disabled. Most work very hard trying to make a living for themselves. This image is misleading. Nikkul (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment:Please look at Poverty in the United States (check the image homelessness living in cardboard boxes in Los Angeles). All WP articles should have NPOV and FACT. Therefore, I couldn’t find any problem adding the Image Women washing cloths in Mumbai (in India article) and of course with disputed “Bodhgaya Image” as it is a FACT or TRUTH, why should we oppose it? I therefore am giving support. Thanks. --Avinesh Jose  T  05:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Reasons for inclusion of Bodhgaya beggar image

User Nikkul in defence of his argument is continuously making personal attacks against me, giving examples from other articles. This user is making wild accusations on me. I will request the editors please read the relevant sections on this page to give an inside in this user and to understand who is incivil. Editors please read the texts like these , , . The Bodggaya beggar image is more appropriate than others because:

• You may know, many beggars live a condition like this, many of them have various disabilities.

There is no "typical" definition of poverty, or beggar. There are abled beggar, disabled beggar. The purpose of the article is depicting poverty. The other beggar images which this user want to place deleting the Bodhgaya beggar image are not good quality, one is B&W, and the other depicting a beggar girl in Ladakh. But my objection here is that Ladakh is quite different from rest of the country because of its geographics. Majority Indians live in plain. And this Bodhgaya beggar image is showing poverty at its most extreme level. It is not right to conceal the situation of poor men like this, it is the truth, the reality. This image touches the heart of the reader, which is a real situation. Yes not all beggars are disabled, but is this an argument? On the other hand it also can be said that not all beggars are abled. Our job here is not to understand who is abled, or who is not. But to find a good image which is representative of many.

• This user is repeatating his arguments and has taken a densive position by his ad hominem attack on me. This user has informed many partisan editors, like User:Hkelkar socks about the image. Any one do not agree with him, here I am trying to depict poverty, and he is labelling me as Indophobic. The only reason given against this image that "since all beggars have not messed up legs, this image is undue". But it is an anti-individualistic argument. So what if not all beggars do not have messed up legs? The fact is that such secenes is a reality and it would not be right to conceal it. Such scenes exists, it is the truth. If it is reality, if such scenes exits, then an article depicting poverty i.e. "the condition of lacking full economic access to fundamental human needs such as food, shelter and safe drinking water", only those images should remain which clearly illustrate this fact.
• Please remember the article is not about India, but the article is about poverty. This article is not depicting India, depicting poverty in India. So such image is not deriding India, it is illustrating the poverty in India. This image will be very appropriate. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Users For Bodhgaya Image

• Misplaced Pages is not censored.Bless sins (talk) 04:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• . Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. (talk) 04:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 05:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• --Avinesh Jose  T  05:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• Xdenizen (talk) 06:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Users Against Bodhgaya Image

• Nikkul (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• Indiandefender2 (talk) 10:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• Sarvagnya 06:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
• rudra (talk) 07:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

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