Misplaced Pages

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the External links page.

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Sorted by subject /workshop: Discussion of 2006 rewrite YouTube discussions Sorted by date Archive 1: 2003 - 2005 Archive 2: January 2005 - March 2006 Archive 3: April - July 2006 Archive 4: July - August 2006 Archive 5: August 2006 Archive 6: August - September 2006 Archive 7: September - October 2006 Archive 8: October 2006 Archive 9: October - November 2006 Archive 10: November 2006 Archive 11: November - December 2006 Archive 12: December 2006 Archive 13: December 2006 II Archive 14: January 2007 Archive 15: January-March 2007 Archive 16: March-May 2007 Archive 17: May 2007 - June 2007 Archive 18: June 2007 - August 2007 Archive 19: August 2007 - September 2007

Fan sites?

Here's a question - I keep getting told there is a blanket ban on "Fan sites" (usually with little definition of what that really is), yet this page only says that web pages with certain features are "normally to be avoided." What about a fan site that doesn't have any of those features (if such a thing exists). What is the rationale for the blanket ban I keep getting told about, and if there is such a ban, shouldn't it be listed on this page somewhere? I think there should, at the very least, be some small wiggle room to allow for (rare) exceptions, but I'm not a Wiki admin, so I will defer to the wisdom of TPTB - if someone will tell me what the actual stance is. Rabidwolfe 21:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no blanket ban on fansites; WP:NOT#LINK suggests linking to a fansite may be appropriate in certain circumstances. However, almost all fansites contain content that violates the copyrights of others – for instance, reprints or scans of press and magazine articles, commercial and promotional images used without permission of the copyright holders, YouTube videos, song lyrics, and so on. Per this guideline's restrictions on linking section and Misplaced Pages's policy on linking to copyright works, we cannot link to such sites. If the copyright issues are not a concern (i.e., the site displays no copvyvio content or has obtained permission from the various copyright holders for any copyright content), then it may be appropriate to add a link to a fansite, provided that it meets WP:EL's criteria on what to link. Another thing to bear in mind is that fansites are often added by the site's owners, which is strongly discouraged per WP:COI; site owners should suggest their external link for inclusion on the article's talk page and let neutral editors discuss the link's merits and make the call. --Muchness 22:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict so pls. forgive if this is redundant) There is no blanket ban, more of a nuanced set of criteria that ends up filtering out 99% of all fan sites. A fan site makes sense if it is the authoritative fan site for a subject, isn't full of copyright or BLP violations, has some useful content that isn't the sort of thing we can include in an article, etc. That's particularly appropriate if it's an official fan site sponsored by the subject of the article. For example the Hannah Montana article can link to the site Disney has set up for fans. What we ought to avoid are random low quality sites without any useful content, self-published tribute sites, sites built to spread copyright violations and bootlegs, or that are set up over the objections of the article subject, etc.Wikidemo 22:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

"I keep getting told there is a blanket ban..." Just ignore anyone telling you that. 2005 23:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

This is something which definitely needs to be clarified. Right now the lack of clarification leads to an extreme logic which says that any site which is not an official site is a fan site. (I can just see a professor diagramming that on a whiteboard.) As has been noted above, when you have a site which is officially endorsed, full of useful content, and not intended to circumvent copyright laws, it is wrong to lump it in the same category as a goofy sparkly page with gushing tributes and pirated media. Rabidwolfe's comments come from a discussion we (attempted) to be involved in where a site which is so complete, authoritative, and officially endorsed that large parts of it are being merged into the official site within the next 60 days was still labeled a "fan site", the link was delisted from dozens of pages, and the person making the point resorted to bullying and puppetry against anyone trying to make a constructive discussion out of the issue. If the rules against the site's inclusion were solid enough, the person making it would not have had no reason to turn to personal attacks and putting words in other peoples' mouths. I have no problem if further clarification of the rules results in the site's definite exclusion, I do have a problem with people using the ambiguity of the rules as a vehicle for aggression. Idea15 (talk) 17:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Bullies will be bullies regardless. There is no prohibition of linking to non-offical sites. If some editor insists there is they next thing they will likely do is just invoke ignore all rules and bully what they want anyway. 2005 (talk) 04:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

The way to view it better is that whatever is included in the EL section should be material that would normally be included in a Feature Article-quality article but cannot be included due to copyright, technical, or other reasons. Additionally, WP does not allow linkage to sites that have copyvios on them. While these requirements do not exclude all fan sites, it sets a very high bar for their inclusion. Inclusion of a fan site on an article page should be based on consensus of its editors. --MASEM 04:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

If this is all true, can we get rid of the WP:FANSITE link to this page? Especially since the word "fan" doesn't even appear anywhere in the content. Torc2 (talk) 04:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Better than that, put something about fan sites back into the page. It keeps coming up, e.g. Misplaced Pages talk:External links/Archive 19#Fansites.3F - which may be helpful. - Fayenatic (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, maybe copypaste what WP:NOT#LINK says: On articles about topics with many fansites, including a link to one major fansite may be appropriate. Right now there's no clear guideline of what to do about fansites on WP:EL, and it's becoming disruptive.--Yamanbaiia 13:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

The guideline is perfectly clear about fansites. Do we really need to go over this stuff every time an editor doesn't want to bother to read this guideline? WP:FANSITE can link to this page because it provides clear guidance on external linking. 2005 (talk) 00:43, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Links to map services

Misplaced Pages currently has around 300,000 articles with geographical coordinates, which all link to a Misplaced Pages edited list of map services available for those locations. In addition, Misplaced Pages articles have 18,000 external links to specific map services. These numbers are big enough to have a guideline on what kind of external links location related topics should have.

I assume most of the external map service links are trying to give readers a helpful way to see where the location is. Such links don't however give any information of the location on their own, they're printable only to tell that the online link may have useful information, and they make Misplaced Pages articles dependent on external services. This is not the case with coordinates, which are general information usable anywhere. Discussions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates may provide further information.

The Misplaced Pages page the coordinates link to, Template:GeoTemplate, links to over 100 different map services. In addition, next to all coordinates is a link to an entirely free Wikimedia map service. Should Misplaced Pages articles then have additional links to any external map services? This is also related to the recent guideline change from "Links should be kept to a minimum" to "Links should be restricted to the most relevant and helpful". In light of WP:USEFUL, the change might be a problem. --Para (talk) 18:45, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Good point. I haven't thought about this much and I'm no expert in mapping services. But for the sake of consistency and fairness, where we have essentially the same need on 300,000 articles we shouldn't be linking to external web services on an ad-hoc basis. Best to have a standardized, predictable way of doing it so that all the users know what to expect and we're not in the position of favoring one advertising-supported commercial service over another. I like the system where the coordinates bring up the template, and the template gives users a choice of which mapping service to use for a display. We should then discourage people from including their own maps (though a special link, or free map on the page might be appropriate if there is some special reason why the geo template is inadequate and that particular map has to be used). Ideally they could set something up in their browser or wikipedia cookie to indicate a preference of one service or another, which could be launched directly from the template as it displays on the page, but that's getting fancy. (all just my opinion, of course) Wikidemo (talk) 20:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed on all counts. The only reason I can think of to include a direct external map link is when the service has unique data that is known to remain static, ie. when the link points to data from a certain date. Another reason could be unique satellite imagery that shows some very specific feature not visible in other services, but the problem with such links is that the contents of the external map services can change at any time without notice, often within months, leading to link rot that can't be detected without human review. There's been discussion on finding and converting the articles that link directly to an editor chosen map service, so if we can agree on a guideline for linking to external map services and the existing links are converted to coordinates, it would be possible to have a bot convert all new map service links to coordinates, with possibly a special template for the links that should not be converted. The idea to have a user set map service preference feature in the tool that shows the link page (currently called GeoHack) is a good one and I think entirely possible. --Para (talk) 23:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

There also is discussion about multiple links to map services at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Geolinks-cityscale. -- SEWilco (talk) 21:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for having split the discussion here, but I felt it was necessary to have some general opinion from people unrelated to WP:GEO, since some have expressed concerns that a single Wikiproject is dictating policy. It would also be good to be able to consider this issue outside the "it's useful" aspect, and ignore the fact that they're map links. --Para (talk) 23:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been working on converting individual map links in articles to coordinates and/or removing them when the article has coordinates already. It's a bit of a big project on my own though, so everyone please take care of a few. More details at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Map link conversion to coordinates. --Para (talk) 13:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well it would have been a good idea to get wider agreement before making wholesale changes. As someone who has created hundreds - and maintains thousands - of geo-articles I think that when a reader clicks on a map location they want to see a map, not a confusing selection of hundreds of options on an ugly page. If the Wiki map is good then standardise to that. First priority is ease of navigation for the casual reader; there is no other "great principle" at stake. (Sarah777 (talk) 23:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC))

Removing external map links from articles has been discussed at length on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates; over half of the page is about getting rid of all the geolinks. It was announced on everything related to coordinates and the village pump, at least. If you have general comments about external links to services that have dozens of alternatives that can be linked to using the same identifier (coordinates, here), then comment here, but otherwise please read up on the previous WP:GEO discussion and participate there. Misplaced Pages's first priority is the dissemination of information, and limiting readers to a single or even a few services that may not even work for them is not helpful. Editors should not be making the decision on which advertising supported commercial map service to make available for people reading Misplaced Pages. They can't all be included in articles, so yes, that one extra mouse click is needed. Anyway, more there. --Para (talk) 00:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

If we direct to Wikimapia it isn't advertising. And one extra click to a confusing page is not reader friendly. Never been to the village pump but I reckon I'll decide for myself what to read before commenting here. Ciao. Sarah777 (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You couldn't have chosen a better example of just how wrong it is to make Misplaced Pages support general use external services by linking articles directly to them. WikiMapia is a site that lives on pay per click advertisements using Google's AdSense. Every time a user clicks on one of the fascinating rectangles overlayed on their map, an advertisement is served where it can best be seen: right in the middle of the screen. All they have to do is to somehow have people come to their site and click. Enter Misplaced Pages, a global top 10 site with topics matching theirs and thereby making click-through more likely. Some people believe that WikiMapia shares Misplaced Pages's ideology by serving community contributed material, but their users' contributions are not available for download and reuse in bulk, making it actually very different from Misplaced Pages. Still, under this misconception, many articles have a prominent link to WikiMapia, sometimes being the only external link at the end of the article. I can't think of any better way for such a site to profit. --Para (talk) 04:04, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

One extra mouse click? If only! :( The useability of those systems is very poor, and this proposal puts the cart before the horse.

I just tested this on Ballyporeen, and when I tried following the links from the co-ordinates, I was presented there with no less than thirteen screenfuls of links. As a reader, that's simply a pain-in-the-neck, and it's depressingly similar to what happens when I follow an ISBN link such as this one.

The effect of all this is that as a reader, I simply don't bother with these links. It's quicker and easier to just copy-and-paste the ISBN number or co-ordinates into one of my favourite mapping services or book catalogues.

I fully support the principle of channeling the geographical links through a centralised system, but unless and until the useability of that system is improved (e.g. by allowing readers to set a preferred map service as a continuing preference), then forcing readers onto that list of hundreds of links is not a satisfactory replacement for a direct link to a map.

The GeoHack system is a great idea, but it's still a bit raw. Hopefully in future it will evolve into something more user-friendly, but isn't there yet. In the meantime it is grossly premature to force the removal of direct links to relevant maps unless and until the generic system is improved to avoid directing the reader to what Sarah777 rightly describes above as a "confusing selection of hundreds of options on an ugly page". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

You happened to choose a place in Ireland, for which there is no specialized entry, so you didn't get to notice that the info for many countries pops up to the top of the GeoHack page. But, yes, the GeoHack solution is similar to that for ISBNs. Maybe User Preferences should have geo and ISBN preferences. But that's outside the ability of the present tools. -- SEWilco (talk) 01:25, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Currently Misplaced Pages users don't have the option for external map service preferences in articles or other lists, so moving from an arbitrary editor chosen service link or a list of links to a list of all available links shouldn't be a problem. If you believe there is a usability issue, please report what it is and let's fix it. People seem to accept that it wouldn't be right for Misplaced Pages to have links in all book articles to Amazon for example, but can't relate this to other situations where the same services are available from a number of sources. Why is this? --Para (talk) 04:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, please read what I wrote above, about thr useability nightmare of a 13-screen list if links when I just want one map.
The comparison with amazon is a red herring: Amazon is trying to sell me the book, but google or yahoo is not trying to sell me the map. And as above, the book finding system stinks too. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

If you have a specific issue with usability in mind, please say what it is and we'll see what we can do. Are there any Irish map services you would like to see added, for example? Have you ever actually tried accessing a map service through the list, and which service were you looking for? The top global ones are already at the top of the list without any scrolling needed at all. If there are any applicable local services, they are shown before. Hardly anyone needs to scroll down more than maybe one page to find what they're after, so this change really adds just a single additional mouse click. The reason why the other services are still kept on the list is that a service listed for one region may work for another too, especially near the borders, and while we have no way to map the coverage of all services, we have to give the users the chance to go to the service they feel is best. All of Google, Yahoo, Amazon, or some other advertisement supported book database profit from incoming links, from advertisers or by selling products. Misplaced Pages can't support them selectively. --Para (talk) 00:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally I think the Yahoo! maps are the clearest - do THEY (shock, horror) make money when someone clicks a link? If we had a template/format that allows the reader to choose a map or a maze - surely that would do? It would keep the socialists and cartographers happy without punishing the pundit. (Sarah777 (talk) 20:49, 16 January 2008 (UTC))

Yes, they display ads as well. Even if they didn't, there are many editors who prefer using some other service, and even more readers with varying preferences. If all those links or even just the top ones on some undefined metric were included in articles directly, many articles would use less screen space for content than external links. So surely we have to let the readers choose themselves by showing them a list of all available services elsewhere, after the click. GeoHack is a tool that fills the map service list Template:GeoTemplate with the given coordinates, creating map links to all available services. Anyone can edit the template to improve it, and more complicated improvements can be discussed on the talk page. The only problem with this is for editors who are so used to seeing the direct links that the resistance to change can be overwhelming. But that'll pass. --Para (talk) 01:55, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

What on earth makes you think that users will start to enjoy the nightmare of thirteen screenfuls of links rather than one direct link? This is not about resistsance to change: it is about resistance to change to a ssytem which is useability disaster. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:09, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

See my comment above at 00:36: hardly anyone needs to scroll more than one page, and there is an easy table of contents for those who do. If the many pages really are the only issue, then this still seems to me like resistance to change coming from someone who has never tried using the system. --Para (talk) 00:36, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, you really ought to assume good faith. I have tried the new sytem, many times, and I hve described above why it is a complete pain-in-the-neck to use, and it is exceptionally rude of you to simply dismissd my objections on the basis of your entirely false assumption that I have not tried it.
Yes, there are often links to apropriate mapping services the first screenful, but there are dozens of them, and yes, there is atable of contents. My objection is to the extra hasle of having to select from all those options rather than a direct link.

If you don't see thr advantage of a direct link, let me put it this way: why link to any article when there is a search box at the side of the page you are reading? Because it's a lot easier for the reader to click on one link and get the page they want rather than have to choose from a long list of alternatives. The same applies to maps: being forced to make a selection from a 13-screen list is a giant leap bcakwards in useability, no matter how carefully that list is arranged. If you don't understand that this a useability problem, then please have the good manners to accept that other users genuinely do find it a problem. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

If you think the problem is in my understanding, please try to explain the problem more clearly, because I still don't see where there would be any hassle and can't believe that you would have tried the system. Nobody needs to scroll 13 screens. It would be possible to make it just a couple of pages or even a single one if it's in columns, if we ignore the possibility of cross-region services being necessary, but such a change wouldn't significantly improve the usability. Please write in complete detail where all you have to click and which part of doing that makes it hard to find the service you need. When I click on your GeoHack link above, I get links to 12 different map services on the first screen without scrolling anywhere, and all of them seem to have more information on the location. What is the hassle in just clicking the first one? It might be easier for a reader not to have to do that single additional click, and have a direct link to some random service in the article, but what makes it impossible is that people have different preferences and everyone won't be happy using the service some editor happened to choose. That's forcing your own preferences to everyone reading Misplaced Pages, and doesn't follow the neutrality and free content principles we should base our work on here. If some people don't care which service they end up in, they can use the entirely Wikimedia run WikiMiniAtlas service, available from the globe icon next to all coordinates. Otherwise, we need to let people make their own choice. The analogy to Misplaced Pages is flawed, because an encyclopedia article is only related to the topics discussed in it, while with a location and map services the location is related to all the available global and local services. Furthermore, hyperlinks allow Misplaced Pages articles to be linked to each other without having to use any additional screen space, whereas all the map links need something additional to link from, and such interface elements wouldn't belong in articles. --Para (talk) 02:32, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The big list of map services is needed for the same reason the big list is needed in ISBN 0-8070-3253-0. Or should an ISBN just link to a specific bookseller or library? The list gives readers several options. -- SEWilco (talk) 02:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

The list does not "give readers several options"; it gives them hundreds of options, when all they want is a map. The ISBN interface is broken for exactly the same reason: it offers the reafer too many options to be useful. The principle is great, but the implementation is awful. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

In reply to para, the first time I tried this for an Irish location, I got sent to this page with zillions of links, and spent more than 30 seconds studying it to figure out what on earth it was all about. Then I went to the list for Europe, but there was no links to the sub-sections, so I scrolled down looking for Ireland, but didn't find an an entry, so I scrolled up and down again a few times in case it was wrongly sorted. Nothing, so I gave up and threw to location name into google maps.

After all that nonsense, I simply didn't bother with the system again for months, until I tried it again. Same palahver, nothing useful, so I scrolled my way back up to the top of the page to see what all this mess was about. After another chunk of reading, I saw a list of map services, tried a few which gave me nothing useful, and went back to manually using Google maps.

I tried it again, after a further break, and this time went straight to the google maps at the top of the list, which was fine.

This system fails the basic test of useability: it should be obvious and simple to use, but it isn't, and most readers simply don't hang around long enough to try to figure out a complex way of achieving a simple task. The defences offered here all the classic defences offered by people who create an interface; they know how the sytem shoukd work, and to them it's logical. The problem is that the refer approaches a system such a GeoHack without the benefit of all that prior know;edge of what the page is trying to do and why it is designed as it is, and in most cases without the aptiejnces tp spend time figuring it out. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

According to Nielsen, users don't scroll, or only 10% of users bother to scroll. That may have changed since then, and with more sources for just about anything nowadays, the percentage is probably even less now. Why do you scroll? It seems that you are thinking of this from the perspective of someone who just wants one map link, any map link, so why not click on the first "Map" link on the first screen? When it's under a section called "Global", is it not obvious that the service is expected to work globally? If you somehow found a global service that didn't give you anything useful, then such incomplete services should be moved to local sections, but the usefulness depends on the context and you have not said what information you were after. Maybe your perspective wasn't to get any map link after all, but you were expecting to see localised map services after having noticed the table of contents? Would an empty local section for all major regions be helpful for users like you? You should note that the mapsources page has had much more work put into it than the book sources page in terms of functionality and interface design, and so dismissing one based on the usability of the other is counterproductive. --Para (talk) 04:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Again, your response is a classic interface-designer's response: that it's had lots of work put into it, so it must be good. That's an entirely false assumption: what matters is outcomes, not inputs, and both systems retain the same fundamental flaw of offering far too many choices with too little explanation of how they should be used.

You also have not read what I wrote; please re-read it. I did not just start scrolling: I started reading, and followed the most specific link available from the section heading at the top, choosing the one labelled "Europe A-M". I then started scrolling because Europe A-M offered no link to Ireland.

You may think that it should be obvious that "global" will cover everything, but I took it to mean services looking at the globe as a whole rather than detailed maps. if the intention is that "global" should be the default starting point, then the page needs to say so ... but it doesn't.

I was not expecting that following the link to Europe would give me a "localised map"; I was expecting that it would give me a map. Instead it gave me nothing, not even an indication that I should return to the "global section".

You now seem to be asking me to come with a quick solution to all the problems, which I absolutely refuse to try to do now. These things need to be done more systematically: start with proper testing by observing a range of users, then try to redesign the interface to cope with how users respond to it, and test again the various alternatives. One user's solution is always going to be inadequate for the generality ... and most importantly, this discussion is about whether this system should be forced on all users by replacing all other map links. It's not ready for that, and this page should not be used as a device for cobbling together out a few quick-and-dirty fixes. The system is not ready, so set up proper procedures to start fixing it rather than just insisting that it must be used to replace all alternatives.--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Classic resistance to change; any proposed solution to alleged problems is going to be unacceptable. Despite your opinionated and counterproductive feedback and unwillingness to answer direct questions, I will act on your feedback and add empty sections for regions that have many coordinates on Misplaced Pages but no local services. This will solve the reported usability issues and tell users that there are no local services for the region, and they won't go wandering to sections for other regions unless they know that there is a useful service that happens to work for the requested location. --Para (talk) 17:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Should an empty region say something like "No map services for this region, use global services"? Or is that instruction awkward or rudely obvious? -- SEWilco (talk) 17:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The second part is painstakingly obvious when the global services are right next to the local section and it doesn't need to be looked up somewhere else. I think "No local map services for this region" is adequate. But is the term "Global systems" (services, sources) really ambiguous? Does it require knowledge on what type of services the first ones on the list are? If so, does it need a heading at all? --Para (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

To summarise the above thread, there is support for centralising the links to external map services on a single page, but some editors accustomed to seeing direct links in articles may feel overwhelmed by the amount of alternatives, and will have to use a couple more seconds to choose one of the first links on the list page. Perhaps a Javascript tool can be created for them to get over the worst resistance to change, and rewrite locally the external links that are being deleted. --Para (talk) 12:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

No, that's not an accurate summary, and after all my repeated explanations to explain the problems, it is quite dishonest of you to continue to characterise the objections as "resistance to change".

It's not a matter of a "couple of seconds": the first time I tried it, I gave up after over a minute, and if you look at user observation exercises such as those conducted by Nielsen show that readers give up after a few seconds if a page isn't helpful.

The objections, are not about resistance to change, as you repeatedly describe it; the objections are to a system which is great in principle but whose useability stinks, and which will continue to stink until there is some system by which a reader can set preferences to avoid encountering that huge index page unless they choose to go there.

The problem, para, is that you continue to describe the system from the perspective of someone who is used to it, and that's the wrong starting point. The real issue is how it works for someone who has not learnt their way around it, and for those users, it's useless.

Don't get me wrong, this system is a great idea; it's just that it still has such poor useability that it is grossly premature to force its use to the exclusion of all other methods. Javascript tools and other such widgets may indeed help, as you suggest, but don't go enforcing this mess on every article until those tools are in place and have had some decent useability testing (i.e testing by users unfamiliar with the system). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with BrownHairedGirl's comment about usability. If it is considered important to give users a choice of map, why not have a default map that should work for most people, and then a monobook feature to replace it with another map service if and when it is desired. (If this arrangement were offered, my guess is that 95% of users would just accept the default). EdJohnston (talk) 03:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There is already a default map link next to all coordinates, try clicking on the globe icon. It gives most people an idea of the location of the article's topic, and from that perspective serves everyone whose browser supports the map view. Anyone not content with it can access the full list of external links, so most of your suggested arrangement is already in place. On the monobook feature: Misplaced Pages has less editors than readers, and less monobook editors than article editors. Any Javascript solutions that require registration, changing preferences and/or editing javascript, are only for a very specific audience, which in most cases is only a small part of who Misplaced Pages is for. --Para (talk) 04:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl's trials seem to represent a very minor viewpoint, when they contain such pearls as having to scroll through 13 pages to find any map link, which of course is utter nonsense as the most appropriate links are on the first screen. She's going to have a hard time finding usability testing where more attention is given to scanning the entire length of the page, instead of just the first screen.

The map sources list and its software is by no means a new system: it has been in use for about three years already, and it's the number one manually accessed service on the Wikimedia Toolserver. There have been surprisingly few complaints of its usability, despite having had the usual discussion link at the top of the page. That may have been a result of users having been forced to use single editor chosen services, I can't say. Usability is an important aspect to think about when making such a highly used page, and nobody who has followed its development could say that no thought has been put into its usability or that the usability "stinks". Resistance to change.

I have been considering this external links issue from the perspective of all users; those who don't care which service they use, those who always choose the most popular global service, those who always want some other specific service, those who prefer using a service local to a region, those who just want to see the general location of the point of interest, those who want to see detailed imagery, those who are after geographical information different from a simple street map, and many others who aren't served by a single or a couple of subjectively chosen map links in an article directly. --Para (talk) 04:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Once again Para, you are describing the system from the perspective of some who knows how the designers intended it to to be used, rather from the perspective of the user who encounters it. And you continue to make the arrogant assumption that the interface is right, but the user is wrong. If that's the approach followed by those who created the GeoHack system, no wonder its usability is so poor that the only feedback you are getting in this discussion is negative.

Rather than rudely dismissing how I found the usability of the system as "utter nonsense", please have the courtesy to stop and actually read what I wrote about how I used it. (You asked me to describe it, so I did, so read it and comment on what I actually wrote rather than on your first impression of it). I did not just start reading the whole page; I started by following what appeared to be the most specific relevant link, which turned out to be a dead-end. There is not even any link at the top of the page which would take me to a succinct explantion of the designers intend the page to be used :(

Again, you continue to focus on the page's development rather than the outcome: the current interface may be the result of thousands of hours conscientious work, but huge inputs do not mean that doesn't mean that an interface is good — remember Microsoft Bob? — what matters is the user's subjective experience, and in this case you are simply refusing to listen to the user feedback you are getting. It's not just from me: you have on this page three users (me, Sarah777 and EdJohnston) all telling you that the geohack system currently has poor usability, but you dismiss them all even though there is nobody supporting your view.

I'll give you one further example of the mistaken assumptions you make. You mention above that "there is already a default map link next to all coordinates, try clicking on the globe icon" ... and sure enough, there is, except that I never knew that. The overwhelming majority of images on wikipedia articles are a link only to the image, not to any content, so I assumed that this was the same: text links bring you to content, but clicking on an image brings you only to a larger version of that image. I had no reason to think that the globe beside the co-ordinates was anything other than decoration like the flagicon beside country names, so I never even bothered to mouseover to see the tooltip explanation. The default map which comes up when clicking on the globe for Ballyporeen is not at all bad, and in many ways the result of that is exactly what a system like this should be doing: producing a quick and easy one-click link to a map, except that it's fatally undermined by the absence of any visible indication that it has a function rather than being mere decoration. Once again, a good system with the fatal flaw that the designers continue to assume that users will know how it is intended to be used ... which would be a perfectly reasonable understandable mistake if it was not for Para's repeated dismissal here of all accounts of the difficulties experienced by users as "utter nonsense".

I have been quite forceful here, because I am appalled by the arrogance with which all critical user feedback is dismissed is "utter nonsense" ... but I do want to repeat that in essence I think that the idea behind GeoHack (of centralising and automating links to a huge range of geographical services) is a really good one, and that it already contains a lot of excellent functionality. My objection is simply to the attempt to enforce it as the only mapping system before usability problems have been resolved. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I am relieved to see this discussion. Like BrownHairedGirl, I perceive numerous useability issues with the geo-links, but I was not prepared to undertake a comprehensive critique of the problem. For starters, I don't think the average user is even aware that clicking on a set of latitude-longitude coordinates (much less on the little globe icon next to those latitude-longitude coordinates) is supposed to bring up a map link. The only reason I am aware of this feature is that I have contributed to articles in which it has been implemented; if I were not a contributor I probably would not even notice the tiny geographic links at the top and/or bottom of many articles. For this and other reasons (many of which have been nicely articulated by BrownHairedGirl), this is a sophisticated technical feature with a lot of wonderful potential that is probably lost on 99% of Misplaced Pages users. --160.91.24.33 (talk) 16:39, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What are the "numerous useability issues"? --Para (talk) 17:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Of for for goodness sake, Patra, this is getting ridiculous. After screenfuls of explanations of the usability problems, asking that question is silly. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl is incorrect in insinuating that I would be the developer or designer of the proposed system, and saying that I don't care of the outcome couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the recent developments are indeed a result of my suggestions after trying to use the system, listening to people's opinions about them, and the community's acceptance of the changes, but I do not maintain it and have had very little to do with the software. I have no idea how it was intended to be used, but half a year ago saw that improvements could be made and since then I have successfully managed to have people implement the requested changes.

Misplaced Pages doesn't often use icons, but they're not inexistant. Icons are used on many computer applications and websites. When Misplaced Pages uses images, they are most often in frames, while icons are not. See for example Misplaced Pages:Reference desk where they work fine. This shows again how a habituated Misplaced Pages editor such as BrownHairedGirl cannot think from a general perspective, but speaks from her own minor viewpoint only. --Para (talk) 17:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, I didn't insinuate that you are the developer; I stated that you are approaching the GeoHack system from the perspective of a developer, by starting from the position of someone who knows how the system is intended to work and is frustrated that ordinary users don't see the problem the same way.

And now you are at it again, dismissing the point about icons with your customary refusal to listen. I can think of no other case where there is an icon on articles in mainspace; there may well be some, but the fact remains that they are a rare exception. Yes, of course icons are widely used elsewhere in computing, but one of the first things a reader learns when using wikipedia is that images are always linked to a larger version of the image, and that clicking on them is pointless unless you want to see a larger version of the image.

Someone who was actually interested in improving the geohack system would now be looking at ways of resolving this problem of the icon's inconsistency with the fest of the wikipedia interface, but all that you seem to be interested in doing is telling the reader that the reader is wrong. Para, try listening for a change and you might start to understand why you are not getting any support for your impose-geohack-now plan. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Again to repeat, I am approaching the GeoHack system from the perspective of all the users, by thinking of all the possible uses for geographical information, and making sure the system is usable in most of those cases.

If you feel there is a problem with how the WikiMiniAtlas is displayed in articles, I suggest that you contact its developers who have added the icons to Misplaced Pages. Again, I have had nothing to do with it, but the fact remains that all Misplaced Pages articles already have a default map. It could be made more visible, but that's not a concern in light of all the other alternatives. Coordinates are easy to recognise because they are always in the same place at the top right of articles, there's a descriptive icon of what the numbers are related to, there's wikilinked text next to them saying that they're coordinates, and a tooltip that tells the user what's behind the link. If people feel it's necessary, a note could be added to Misplaced Pages's Help / Getting started / Basic navigation as kind of a key for the page layout, often used in encyclopedias.

Otherwise, people's personal preferences and opinions are of course listened when developing a system, but when they don't block its usage, they should not block the improvement. --Para (talk) 21:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, you are listening to only one preference here, namely yours. Nobody is talking of "blocking an improvement"; you and others are quite free to improve geohack and roll it out further, but this discussion is about the something very different, namely your desire to remove alternatives to your preferred system. And the clear consensus here is that at this stage of geohack's development, it would be wrong to do that. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The improvement here is the consolidation and standardisation of Misplaced Pages's linking to external map services. At the moment it's a mess, but we have been working on improving the situation and that's what you're involved in now. The impartial system has been in use for three years, and has been usable throughout that time, though recently more so. When usability concerns are not major and possible resolution won't require major changes, they are irrelevant for the change and can be worked on later. The book sources list is in use now, has been for a long time, and such commercial links from articles are not allowed. Whatever a small minority of editors think of the list, it's only their opinion, but participation in the Misplaced Pages project depends on all users respecting the basic guidelines of the project. The minority not fond of the change seems to be ignoring those over personal preferences. --Para (talk) 22:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, your arrogance and refusal to listen is astonishing, as your latest falsehood of referring to a "minority not fond of the change". In this discussion, there is a large majority opposed to it.

As has been repeatedly said to you by every other contributor to this page, the objection is not about "personal preference" — it is about the usability disaster of the GeoHack system. Ypu didn't agree with that, and asked me to describe in detail why it is a disaster, and I did that ... but you simply dismissed it all as "nonsense".

As to the basic guidelines of the project, you are simply wrong. There is no ban on an article including a limited number of relevant links to external sites, even if they carry advertising. For example, there are squillions of links to newspaper websites, nearly all of which carry advertising, and the test is relevancy.

I can see many advantages in a generalised map link system such as geohack, but only if it has some reasonable degree of usability, and if usability problems are taken seriously. However the persistent refusal of its leading advocate to accept genuine reports of difficulties makes me wonder what on earth this plan is all about. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Your stubbornness is astonishing. How can the concepts of information, neutrality, free content and accessibility be so hard to understand and relate to Misplaced Pages content? Map links will get the same treatment as book source links did, mostly for the same reasons and regardless of any possible further link page developments, whether you like it or not.

If relevance was the only criteria for map link inclusion in articles, we would have to answer everyone's personal needs and preferences, and include all the global and appropriate local links in all the location related articles, because they are all relevant. As you have repeatedly said already, such a list would be unacceptable, especially in articles. On the other end we have the current situation, where single editors are allowed to insert their preferred map service link to be offered to all readers of the article. Luckily the advocates for any single map service aren't aware of this preference, because otherwise we would see edit warring on whose commercial service this top10 website links to. The current situation cannot continue, and we must work on making all map related links on Misplaced Pages follow the same pattern.

If you had paid any attention to what you are commenting, you would have noticed that the table of contents you were so attracted to has been moved below the fold, following your explanation of the use experience. No other issues have been reported, except your inability to understand the meaning of the word global. Is common sense too much to ask? If the same report comes from multiple users, related to something specific as opposed to a general feeling of having to use something different than before, then it can be given attention and ideas requested for alternative options. Others are dismissed as resistance to change.

The analogy to newspaper websites is flawed, as the sources the encyclopedia gets the information from are irrelevant as long as they are reliable. Map services however have quite distinct user interfaces which people get accustomed to, the data and additional features vary, and with your logic you'd have no basis to stop someone from adding yet another map link to an article. If the distinction is lost on you and you are content with whichever service is provided (first link that says "Map", hello?), I'd recommend for you to abstain from commenting on this any further. --Para (talk) 01:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Links to map services - summary

In the discussion so far, the GeoHack system has been vigorously defended by Para, but and the principle of centralising links has been supported by Wikidemo. However the the only comment from other users has been critical of the usability pf the GeoHack system at this point in its development, so there is no consensus for Para's initial proposal that all other links to map services should be removed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You missed my support of centralizing links, but the stumbling phrasing "but and the principle" suggests an editing problem so you might have misplaced part of your paragraph. Check your draft or notes for whatever else got overlooked. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Leaving 300,000 Misplaced Pages articles free for ad-hoc adding of links to external advertising supported services is out of question; the change must be done despite the minor discordant notes. We need to be consistent on our linking to map services, as such a high number of location related articles makes map links almost part of the Misplaced Pages interface. The book sources list with ISBNs and external links was taken into use for principled and practical reasons, so coordinates and map service links should be handled the same way. There is no other possible alternative to the centralised list of links, and single external map service links cannot be used for the following reasons:

• Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia for the dissemination of information.
  • An external map service link is only information that a single external resource may at some point have had information about the topic, whereas coordinates are information by themselves, usable in any online or offline service.
  • There are very few location related articles that require a direct link to a specific map service, instead of the general coordinate information about the location.
  • External map links are a result of lazy editing: Instead of doing what an editor should do and processing the link into encyclopedic information, it's just inserted to the article as such without bothering to generalise.
• Misplaced Pages has a neutral point of view and is free content.
  • The selection of map services is a reader choice and editors cannot objectively make that choice for people.
  • Direct links in articles supports the preferences of very few people only.
  • Misplaced Pages does not sponsor certain advertisement supported commercial map services over all the others.
  • Misplaced Pages does not depend on external services, which consistent external map links in articles would cause.
• Misplaced Pages should be accessible to the widest possible audience.
  • Links chosen by single editors reflect their personal preferences, and they may not include accessible external services.
  • Direct links break geographical information into unusable snippets that can only be used online with a modern web browser, unlike coordinates and a full list of services.
  • A single or a couple of external map service links ignore the users' needs, maybe without even the user knowing that other services with data for the location exist. We can't know why people go to geographical information services and which ones they use.

--Para (talk) 16:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, you're still doing the same thing as you have done throughout this thread. You are restating the case you make for your objective, and dismissing the consensus that the system you advocate is not yet sufficiently mature to justify the mass removal of other links.

That's all. You have made your case, and there is no consenus for it. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That is incorrect. There is no consensus one way or the other on this page, so we can just make a decision based on fundamental Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, which I mentioned above. If BrownHairedGirl's little revert warring friend asks to support her position when she is incapable of doing it herself, it is not a separate independent opinion. EdJohnston also made no comment of the usability, it's BrownHairedGirl together with the ip user complaining about changing the status quo, here on an page inappropriate for that purpose. But all that is irrelevant: editors' ignorance of Misplaced Pages policies is not a reason to stop improvements because of minor usability concerns. This is a matter of principle, and external links to map services other than in the references section must be removed, simple as that. --Para (talk) 21:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, you are the only advocate of imposing geohack, and Para's view != consensus. I strongly resent the suggestion that I am not taking an independent view: I frequently disagree with Sarah777. But take a look at this page, and you will see that there are four editors opposing your proposal, which amounts to a consensus against.

As to wikipedia policies, there is no policy which requires the removal of a limited number of relevant external links, and there is no policy which requires the reader to be deprived of useful links to information in favour of a well-intentioned but system with atrocioius usability, whose advocates dismiss all objections as "nonsense". You consistently refuse to listen to any of the criticism of the system, and wilfully misrepresent objections — most recently with ip contributor who wrote of "numerous useability issues with the geo-links", but who you falsely claim was merely "complaining about changing the status quo".

That's all: you floated a proposal, and the consensus is against you. Of course, if and when the GeoHack system is improved, the consensus may change — and in principle I'd be delighted to support something like this if it was not such a usability nightmare — but that's in the future. Right now, with GeoHack as it is, the consensus is "no".

Given the consensus in this discussion against your proposal, I will revert as vandalism any attempt to enforce the removal of all map links except the GeoHack system. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't noticed any proposal of a dual system yet, that allows two clickable links on each article: (1) a link that goes to a standard map, possibly one hosted by a commercial provider, like Google Maps, (2) a link that goes to GeoHack. This might be tried out on a small number of articles. It would certainly give free choice to our readers. I agree with BHG that there is no consensus for a global switch to GeoHack as the only permitted option. EdJohnston (talk) 21:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That's mentioned in the above summary of points related to Misplaced Pages policies, mostly related to neutrality. Looking at how many popular services are on the map sources list, and how many different users have inserted them, the variety of preferred map services is too much for them to be linked in articles directly. It was tried for some time with the geolinks templates, but dismissed as too partial and impossible to maintain. In proportion, such a list would take too much screen space from articles, and would make Misplaced Pages more dependant on the editor chosen services. We just can't make that choice for the reader. --Para (talk) 22:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a common problem in the wiki discussion format that people are reluctant to participate when the activity seems high and participation would require reading the entire discussion. Anyone who bothers to do that and wants to act as part of the community will naturally agree that external map links are against Misplaced Pages policies. You can find more views from the discussions on WP:GEO from both sides, though the people opposing the change were in a minority, and had no basis other than being used to the "useful" status quo. All reports of usability have been listened to and for the most part acted upon.

The Misplaced Pages policies I mentioned above came from Misplaced Pages:Five pillars. If you revert removal of external map links, you will be reverted in violation of fundamental Misplaced Pages policies. --Para (talk) 21:59, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The objection to specific map services sounds ideological to me. I'd prefer to consider a small experiment, where we would actually collect data on how satisfied our readers were with the provided options. For this to work, somebody would have to propose a small set of articles where we would try out some alternatives. They could even be featured articles, such as New York City. EdJohnston (talk) 22:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's ideological! Misplaced Pages itself is a very ideological project, and we have to hold on to those ideas and possibilities to keep the project on track. A user test would unfortunately be impossible to arrange on our own without severely biased results, because we can't require everyone to answer. The geolinks experiment ran for quite a long time, so many Misplaced Pages regulars got used to seeing those links at the bottom of articles, without considering how they fit to Misplaced Pages as a whole. Since people used to editing Misplaced Pages would then be more likely to answer any questions, we would mostly get answers from those people. The activity on this page is just resistance to change from bad practices, and it'll pass. --Para (talk) 22:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I sense this is covering the same ground as the ISBN debate, from more than a year ago, where we heard about the wickedness of linking to any site that used advertising, such as Amazon. A particularly useful ISBN-validity-checking service known as http://www.isbn-check.com even got put on the blacklist, due to to the evil fact that one of its screens included links to Amazon. (The site was actually used by a Wiki project that was trying to fix invalid ISBNs). Finally that decision was reversed. A well-functioning discussion thread should elicit better and better ideas from both sides, but I'm not sensing any improvement from your side of the discussion. Whether you think an experiment is a good idea, of course, is up to you. Maybe you might consider a different experiment if you don't like what I proposed. EdJohnston (talk) 22:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds about right. When there's a general identifier such as an ISBN or geographical coordinates that can be used in a number of similar services, and the number is significant enough for a list to be separated from external links sections, then all such links should be removed from articles to eliminate redundancy and leave the choice for the users, especially when the links are commercial in nature. It's no doubt slightly easier for a user to click on a single direct link than click twice, but when only one identifiable link is offered, most will probably click on that and then Misplaced Pages is seen as supporting a single external advertising supported commercial service over all the others. I'm not sure what happened with that particular ISBN checking service, but it seems to have been abolished from Misplaced Pages entirely, since there are no usable links to it, not even on the book sources page. Anyhow, during the course of this and other discussions about the use of map links, the map sources page has seen numerous improvements, and its discussion page is where any ideas and reports should be written. An experiment would be great, but unfortunately impossible with the financial resources we have to test Misplaced Pages's usability. --Para (talk) 23:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Para, what's all this about only offering one link on an article? The only person proposing that is you, with your determination to remove all other map links. Nobody here is objecting to having a geohack link on an article — the objection is solely to your obsession with removing any alternatives.

As to redundancy, you nearly made me die of laughter. I have seen few things with more redundancy than your beloved GeoHack page of 13 screenfuls of links, most of which have absolutely no relevance to the place being mapped.

I don't consider the list to the map sources page a map link itself. Therefore if a page has coordinates inserted using one of the community approved templates, and in addition someone goes to add a direct external map link following their personal preferences, that direct link is then redundant and must be removed. Good for you to keep repeating the ridiculous 13 page argument, it reduces the weight of anything else you have to say. --Para (talk) 01:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, you continue to repeat your lie about "two clicks". (And I call it a lie, because while I tried to assume good faith, your continued refusal to listen to other experiences makes that assumption impossible to sustain). Yes, it is possible to use GeoHack to access some map services with only two clicks, but only if they happen to be the ones listed in the first screenfull and the user knows that they should ignore the useless links to "Europe A-M" etc. Unless the user has somehow managed to figure the completely opaque intentions of the page's designers, then the experience is more likely to be twenty clicks before giving up in frustration. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Despite your unwillingness to cooperate, you should note that all your comments get due attention, and as such changes are possible at any time. Please check the page before commenting. These "useless links" are no longer as visible as they were when you first mentioned them, so people's attention will be drawn to what the heading on the page says, the content of the page, and not on navigating the page further. But this is all irrelevant and off topic here, as the map sources page is not only as usable as the book sources page, which alone is enough to continue with the change, but it is actually better, since most of the popular and appropriate links fit on a single screen. Please place any further comments about usability on Template talk:GeoTemplate. --Para (talk) 01:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

Maybe everyone should take a little chill. This issue isn't new and it's not getting resolved soon, so no emergency worth getting personal over. I don't think it's a good idea to link directly to map services, and I would probably remove such a link if it appeared for no good reason in an article I was working on. At the same time we have 300,000 and it's premature to delete them en masse from articles without having a really good system in place. The best, I think, is for anybody who feels strongly about this and/or wants to do a lot of good to develop our technology a little further, and maybe the usability of the way geocodes are displayed in articles. Once it's so good that everybody loves it, we can set about converting external map links to geocodes using bots. We could even give people some notice and warning time so they can put a "do not convert" flag somewhere for the bots, if they strongly feel that a particular external link to a mapping service should remain. Of course they could always just revert the bot too...Wikidemo (talk) 01:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The 300,000 mentioned in the beginning of this topic was actually the number of articles with recognisable geographical coordinates, not the number of external map service links. At the time there were 18,000 external links to the services listed on the map sources page, but it has since come down. Unfortunately I can't give current numbers as the toolserver database for the English Misplaced Pages is down this week. Misplaced Pages has had rampant external map links in articles for such a long time that that's what many people willing to comment are used to, and seeing the disregard of Misplaced Pages policy on this page already, I doubt waiting for the love is the way to go. What we need is mass review and possible conversion and removal of the remaining external links, or tagging as unique to be kept and guidelines for which types deserve that treatment. It shouldn't be done with a bot to make sure that the automatically generated links give the same location and similar results as the editor inserted external link, and that it's indeed the location of the article's topic. The majority will not be reverted, and the ones that are will just end up for review again for someone else. Geographical coordinates and map service links are such a minor detail in articles that most people just aren't going to pay any attention if they are notified of an upcoming change, as was seen in the geolinks change on WP:GEO. The best solution is to just go for it and then see about the comments. Meanwhile, to keep the convenience seeking editors happy, people can work on Javascript solutions to have direct links to services. I wrote commons:User:Para/Google Maps Love.js once for this very purpose, and it works with coordinates here on the English Misplaced Pages too. --Para (talk) 02:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

MySpace

From what I understand, you can add a MySpace page if it is the the real page belonging to the person (like Tilta Tequila's article has a link to her MySpace page). My question is regards to Jeff Hardy's article. It has a link to the MySpace page of "The Hardy Show" (a website run by him and his brother Matt, and others). If that link goes anywhere, it should go at Hardy Boyz (the article on him and Matt]]. A user also keeps adding the MySpace page of something called "Itchweed" (which appears to only exist on MySpace). Any comments? TJ Spyke 04:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I have a similar question; the official MySpace is permitted in FA articles (Godsmack, Megadeth, Slayer), so what stops the official Facebook from being added? There was a user recently who tried to add the official Facebook of Opeth (they link to it from their official site, so I assume it is as valid as the MySpace), only to see me revert him. However, I now question myself; number 11 of Links normally to be avoided says to avoid Myspace, Facebook and similar sites; if we allow Myspace, why not Facebook as well? Master of Puppets 22:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

organizations' official sites

I have noticed that in many global organizations external links section many official websites are listed. The global website and other regional (North America, Europe etc...) or National websites (USA, Canada, UK etc...). I Know official websites should be listed but I believe the global website (that usually provides links to other national websites) should be sufficient. After all the links are there to provide further information not help users find a product. Is there a policy on this? Chris Ssk _talk 10:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no specific policy, but you are correct that the links to the additional sites are over-linking, and you would be right to remove them. UnitedStatesian (talk) 15:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems to me that one will do in most cases, and if we're only linking one, the international version would seem to make the most sense. – Luna Santin (talk) 01:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Our site has a new domain, hundreds (thousands?) of links to it in Misplaced Pages need to be updated

Is there a way to globally update links that contain our old domain to the new one? Opening up each article individually isn't practical (see linksearch results below). Our old site was located here: www.tsha.utexas.edu and the new one resides here: www.tshaonline.org . Everything is still in the same place, just a different domain ( www.tsha.utexas.edu/education is now www.tshaonline.org/education for instance)

I put the old URL in the Wiki linksearch and got a rather large list: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Linksearch&target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tsha.utexas.edu%2F&namespace=&limit=500&offset=0 Any help would be appreciated! Txnomad (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but there is no simple way unless it is put in a template (and putting external links in templates would make it an easy target for spammers). The best way is to use AWB or maybe Twinkle for that. Maybe you can request a bot for the changes, though. Or see for someone with editcountitis to help. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:49, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

From what I see there are 3035 links. Some (the www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/ ones without determined page) can be removed since they aren't giving information to the articles. The 3000 others are the ones to change. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Bot requests. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I notice that http://tshaonline.com identifies itself as run by the Texas State Historical Association. Is there some reason why the existing page at http://www.tsha.utexas.edu couldn't redirect all visitors over to tshaonline.com? Is there some legal reason why they can't anymore be included at utexas.edu? Remember that this change will not only break all the links at WP, which are fixable, but all links elsewhere on the web, which will reduce the usefulness of the information in this historical collection. State history is surely not so controversial that U of Texas can't link to it. Perhaps Txnomad could have a conversation with the webmaster of utexas.edu. EdJohnston (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a template at {{Handbook of Texas}}. I updated the URL in that template. There are still some 2000 links to convert to the template-- User:Docu

Everything is still in the same place, just a different domain ( www.tsha.utexas.edu/education is now www.tshaonline.org/education for instance) You can do this in your server's config... by issuing a Permanent redirect from the old domain name to the new domain name. Contact your hostmaster or webmaster to do this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:04, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this would apply to this situation, but situations like this can often benefit from being added to Meta:Interwiki map, if said site passes the criteria there. This would allow for such an update with minimal work. Alternatively, you can also make a template for the link. Granted this doesn't really help anyone out now, nor can we always predict when someone will change domain names, but I thought I'd throw it out there. -- Ned Scott 06:26, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Recently Hu12 raised a spam concern about some of these links. See my reply to him here. I left a message on Txnomad's talk asking him to return to this discussion, since he's been active today. So we have two questions: (a) is mass conversion appropriate? (b) should we be keeping the generic links to the TSHA site at all, or the generic links to their handbook? The links to specific historical documents, from relevant articles, are likely to be OK in my view, but I don't know if those are the majority. EdJohnston (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Regrettably, we have got no response from Txnomad who originally raised the question. So I have started a very slow-moving update process, where I use a Linksearch for references to the Handbook of Texas and try to replace the links I find with instances of the Handbook template. For example at White Rock Lake I used this format: {{Handbook of Texas|id=WW/row4|name=White Rock Lake}} . EdJohnston (talk) 22:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Another opinion required

User:Legionarius seems to be on a personal crusade to remove external links from Misplaced Pages articles, apparently in the belief that the clause "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article" under "Links normally to be avoided" gives him licence to remove almost any link. I have reverted him on are Alan Moore, where the links mostly consist of interviews with the subject - but I feel that no matter how good and how comprehensive the article got, Moore's own words would be a resource beyond what the article could contain - and Buddhist art - again, no matter how good the article got, it could not contain every example or every interpretation of Buddhist art, and so external links would be an extra resource. He's now challenging others to defend the links he wants removed - perhaps a few more opinions might dissuade him from his destructive behaviour? --Nicknack009 (talk) 21:24, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Google for 'Alan Moore interview', there are 339,000 results. If an interview is truly of interest, isn't there some place in the article where it could be used as a reference? There is a stronger case for adding external links in an article on a rare or off-the-beaten-track subject. When Google overflows with results, the case seems weaker. If the companies he published with have their own articles, it should be OK to include them as See Alsos. It is possible that you'd get less resistance if you tried to add the links at List of published material by Alan Moore, which is a more casual and less beautiful article. There is a sense in which interviews are publications. EdJohnston (talk) 22:51, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Nick, my intentions are good and I sincerely believe I am following policy. Since I am giving you all this trouble of following my removals around, could you please look at this too? I do not want to get in another edit war with this editor. (you in this case are viewers of this page, not Nick only) Thanks!--Legionarius (talk) 23:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You are misinterpreting policy in a wilfully pedantic manner. Firstly, "Links normally to be avoided" does not mean "Links never to be included". Secondly, if an article became a featured article it would still not possibly include all conceivable information of interpretations about the subject, so links to other resources for further reading are always possible. The idea that an encyclopedia article can or should be self-contained is absurd. --Nicknack009 (talk) 11:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, maybe one link in the Buddhist art page is salvageable - I left it in. I added a link to dmoz too. I don't think I am misinterpreting policy and I do not agree with your assessment, but all good faith opinions are welcome. (other editors) If you are reading this, please what is your take? There is more information in the article's talk page.--Legionarius (talk) 15:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The guidance here is quite clear that links section should be kept minimal and contain links which are accessible, informative and functional. Beyond that it is editorial consensus that mostly dictates. The wholesale removal of all links is not called for, and is against this guidance and against WP:CONSENSUS. I disagree with portions of this edit by Legionarius because it removes links wholesale, not in the spirit of this guidance, it removes functional, accessible relevant links, again not in the spirit of this guidance and having an empty external links section also counters our purpose; we supposed to be comprehensive. I've only edited at Alan Moore so I'm not sure on actions elsewhere, I was pointed here by a message in my talk page. It has been a ling time since I was involved in a drafting of this page, but in all the time I had this page on my watch list it was always felt that links were a good thing. Indeed the nutshell still states that they should be restricted to those that are most meritable, accessible and relevant to the article. That's a matter for consensus through editing and discussion at individual pages. I don't disagree that there are numerous Alan Moore interviews on the internet, but not all the links removed were interviews. Some of them covered material in more depth and a different scope to that which Misplaced Pages can take, and so are informative, and help inform the reader. At the point our guidance or interpretations of it conflict with informing readers, I would argue that we inform our readers. Hiding T 20:10, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I do not think those links are particularly valuable or representative; I still think that if they add to the article they should be included as references. The worst links are out anyway, and this is an improvement to the article. Those are just unnecessary.--Legionarius (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm old enough to remember when we guided that links which could be used as references be placed in the external links section. I'm not sure whey that has fallen from this guideline, and I would recommend it be reinstated. A discussion specific to the Moore links is best held at Talk:Alan Moore. I agree the worst of them have gone, which has improved the article. I do not agree that removing them all and leaving an empty external links section was in line with guidance. Hiding T 10:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Linking to other wikis, pre-proposal

I've been trying to format the proposal at Misplaced Pages:Linking to other wikis, and wanted to see what other ideas people have before the asking the community to comment on which ideas they like and which they don't like. If nothing new comes up in the next day or two, I'll tidy up the page and pimp the proposal out. -- Ned Scott 05:18, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Blogs of the article subject

Is it really reasonable that a personal blog of the person the article is about be removed? I refer to Aaron Turner, where his own blog has been removed from the external links section. Surely that's a little overly-literal in the interpretation of the letter of the law? Thoughts? If I'm wrong, please direct me to the relevant guideline, so I can gape at it in disbelief. Thanks. Seegoon (talk) 11:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

By my reading of these guidelines, a blog authored by the article subject is okay to link to in most circumstances. My feeling is that a blog authored by the article subject falls within the "official page of the article subject" exception; so, provided the blog isn't prohibited by this guideline's Restrictions on linking, I don't see a problem with adding it to the external links section. --Muchness (talk) 12:12, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Movie Trailers

I would like to direct some of your attention to a discussion happening at Misplaced Pages:Village_pump_(policy)#Movie_Trailers. Please let me know your suggestions on that. Thanks. -- Anshuk (talk) 02:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Tooltips on mouseover

Is there anyway to provide alternate text for external links that will be displayed when someone mouses over it? — Jonathan Kovaciny (talk|contribs) 21:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Sometimes Misplaced Pages articles are printed; in that case, any such information would be lost when the article is printed. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 17:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Links to personal memoirs on Chita, Siberia

SiberianSpireite (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello.

Legionarius removed links to my own personal memoirs of living in Chita, Siberia from both the Siberia and Chita pages, prompting the following discussion. Of course, I wish to re-add the links but Legionarius has requested I post here for further views. Any views are welcome! Thanks from James (aka SiberianSpireite). (Pasted discussion follows):

Hello,

I appreciate the valuable work you do for Misplaced Pages, but I have a question regarding the 'Chita, Russia' page. I lived in Chita for sixteen months, wrote about it and placed my musings online (not for commercial purposes but for anyone to read). For months I linked this to the 'Chita, Russia' and 'Siberia' pages on Misplaced Pages and received tens of hits from those sources every week, plus some positive guestbook feedback. I chose to link (only) from Misplaced Pages because I reasoned that those seeking knowledge about Chita and Siberia would be among those who would most value my writings.

Recently, links to both have been removed, so I edited them back in, only to see them removed for being 'Too narrow in scope'. Disappointing as this is, I can accept that writing about life in Chita may be too narrow for the 'Siberia' page, but how is it too narrow for a page about Chita? So many people ask me what it was like to live in Siberia, which is one of the reasons I put up my site, and I'm sure many visitors to these two pages would find my content interesting. I don't profit personally from visitors. Can you explain why my site is not permitted as a link from Misplaced Pages please?

Thanks

SiberianSpireite —Preceding unsigned comment added by SiberianSpireite (talk • contribs) 21:59, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi James! Please do not take it personally. The guidelines in WP:EL disencourage linking to "to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority" and "sites that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article". Although your account is perfectly enjoyable and an interesting read, the link fails the two conditions mentioned and talk about only a little part of all the aspects that should be covered in an article about Chita/Siberia. If you disagree with my evaluation, please copy/paste your question in Misplaced Pages talk:External links for additional input from other editors.--Legionarius (talk) 03:48, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Legionarius. I will make a point to reply in detail after the holidays. In a nutshell, I aagree with your response, although considering that there are currently hardly any external links on the Chita page, I don't see any harm in leaving this particular link there. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 07:01, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, James! I was the person who removed the link to your site from Siberia. Basically, I do agree with what Legionarius said above—we have a set of guidelines which discourage linking to personal websites. I myself am pretty liberal about it—I left the link on Chita, Russia because that article currently does not have any quality external links at all, but, of course, it would not be right to restore the link once it is removed by someone else on policy grounds. I also enjoyed reading your account a great deal, but please understand that a link to it is not really suitable in an encyclopedia. I hope this resolves this situation. If you have any questions, you are quite welcome to ask them on my talk page, and I am sure Legionarius would be more than happy to help you as well. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Privet Ezhiki, Hi Legionarius.... Thanks for your considered responses. I appreciate why my link was removed from the Siberia page but, regarding the 'Chita, Russia' page would disagree that my site does not meet the condition "sites that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a Featured article". Surely many Misplaced Pages users visit the Chita page in order to seek information about the city: I would argue that my book provides this in abundance, arguably beyond what a 'Featured article' may be able to encompass. I appreciate the work you both do and remain a huge fan of Misplaced Pages. Of course, I would like to see the link restored for personal reasons but I also strongly believe that the quantity and quality of information I placed into my book- ie virtually everything I had gleaned about Chita whilst living there for sixteen months- is a resource which would be appreciated by Misplaced Pages users and, I hope, encourage people to develop a more accurate view of Siberian life and perhaps even a desire to visit Chita.--SiberianSpireite

Like I said, I myself am extremely liberal about external links. For me, as long as they are not clearly spam, are on topic, and are not overly broad or too narrow in scope, I just let them be. I, however, also realize that it is not the approach taken by most other editors, who take cleaning up the external links more seriously than I do, which is why I rarely get myself involved in discussions on this subject. If you want to contest the removal of your link, you will probably be better off by talking primarily with Legionarius. If you need an outside opinion, you can also post a review request on WP:AN to get opinions of other administrators. I doubt they will be much different from Legionarius', but you are sure free to try this option. Hope this helps.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:17, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi James: I will not remove the links again, but please take the discussion to the talk page of Wp:EL before readding it; I of course may be wrong about my interpretation, and an outside view is alawys helpful.--Legionarius (talk) 04:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC) SiberianSpireite (talk) 21:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Special pages "External links" tool not working?

Apologies if this has already been asked, but when I perform an External Links search as here, only the first 50 results are being returned, with no links or options to expand the list to 100, 200, 500, etc. Is there a bug with this tool? - John Russ Finley (talk) 19:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Lists of manufacturers and suppliers

I should like to explicitly exclude lists of external links to manufacturers and suppliers. Not only are these unencyclopaedic, but since they are rarely complete they are potentially commercially damaging to non-included companies. May I have any views, please? TerriersFan (talk) 23:58, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not usually happy with long lists of manufacturers, and even less happy with list of suppliers. I could see an exception for hard-to-find items where normal search methods might not succeed. But it is entirely appropriate to link to useful material loacated on manufacturer's sites (and occasionally on supplier's sites). --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I now understand the distinction. I have reinserted using 'Lists of ..' and hope that finds favour. TerriersFan (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hundreds of external links added by Ateamfog

Please see his contributions. This user has been adding links to tons of Philippine locality articles to the batch2006.com domain. The website is basically a whole slew of photo galleries depicting places in the Philippines. This user has been adding links with the edit summary pointing to the External Links guideline. I don't know what to make of it. --seav (talk) 06:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Linking to Yahoo! News articles

I continually find links to Yahoo! News articles that are dead links. Yahoo! News is infamous for expiring their articles relatively quickly. Most of these links are to Associated Press or Reuters stories. Yahoo! News (and Yahoo! Finance as well) should not be used for this purpose.

I would like to see this become Misplaced Pages Policy.

If you find a story on Yahoo! News that you want to link to, then find the same story on a site that doesn't expire the articles. There are numerous (probably dozens, if not hundreds of) sites that carry AP or Reuters stories that don't later become dead links.

And speaking of external links...

Among the sites with AP and/or Reuters stories that remain permanent are:

• CNN
• MSNBC
• The Washington Post
• The New York Times
• The Los Angeles Times
• The Chicago Tribune

This is by no means an exhaustive list. I know of several smaller sites that keep the articles as well, but you get the idea.

Just say no to Yahoo! News (and same applies to Yahoo! Finance as well).

Thank you. --angrykeyboarder (a/k/a:Scott) (talk) 00:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

COI policy unclear for newcomers

I often remove spammy/COI links (new users or IP addresses whose edits only consist of adding links to a single website), thereby referring to WP:EL. I dare to say that the majority of disputes on external links are about whether or not something is spam. Often, all discussion on whether it somehow fits in the suitable/considerable categories of external links can be bypassed by the fact that it is (likely) a site owner who added the link.

Currently, the section WP:EL#Advertising and conflict of interest is buried somewhere halfway the page and easily overlooked by the good-faith editor who believes that his/her site falls under the category of acceptable external links.

Hence, would it be an idea to add an extra line about CoI under "Points to remember"? Also, the wording "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked." is rather vague: (1) "Should" suggests that it can be done, but usually preferably not, and (2) "avoid linking" also invites liberal interpretation. I would suggest a wording along the lines of "You must not link to a website that you own, maintain or represent, even if ...".

Han-Kwang (t) 13:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

P.S. IP users trying to add an external link get an automatic warning on the page submission form, referring to the WP:EL page. Again the good-faith editor will see first that his/her site might be suitable, and not read all the way down to the COI warning. I think moving the COI warning further up in the WP:EL page could reduce spam considerably. Han-Kwang (t) 17:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-free and registration-required links

Looks like we have some policy warriors going on here. Currently, WP:EL states that it is not allowed to have external links to the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and so forth. This is clearly (a) ridiculous, and (b) not consensus policy, as I have never seen anyone delete links such as these. Does anyone want to defend the practice?

Simply declaring that the current policy of forbidding links "is consensus" is probably not going to be helpful. 69.17.73.214 (talk) 16:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I personally did delete non-free links plenty of times, if only because newspaper articles in many cases don't belong in the external links section anyway. Occasionally, a non-free article is is under external links, but was actually used as a reference for a statement, in which case I change it into a reference. AFAIK references can be non-free. Han-Kwang (t) 17:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Links to pay and registration sites are routinely deleted, and we don't have them here. That's the current norm / consensus, clearly - sorry if you don't think that's helpful but that's how it is. Incidentally the New York Times has recently opened up its entire archive so you can almost always find a free non-registration link to any NYT article. It's only a matter of time before all the others follow suit. Wikidemo (talk) 17:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken -- you are required to register to view free content on the New York Times. So are you suggesting that we delete all Times links? Let's just be clear! 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, so does anybody want to defend the idea that we should never have a "non-free" link in the external links section? 69.17.73.214 (talk) 17:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

there should not be Non-free links in EL sections. what some newspapers do do is have a free registration process. which is OK for the EL section. β 17:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, betacommand2 -- you seem to be saying that registration-required links are OK for EL. That's not what you kept reverting about, but then you're a bit of a strong man on these things. 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sites that require registrations are fine for references if you inline them. Otherwise, we would stop using books as references because you are required to buy it in order to check it out. However, in the external links section adding a link to a site requiring registration is not really needed. Say, an article about some author, with an external link to The Wall Street Journal that requires registration. In this case, the link is not really useful because it may refer to any section of the article itself (the biography, the career, the death, etc), everything or maybe nothing at all (achievements by the author, a section that hasn't yet been created in the article). However, when you add it as an inline reference, you are pointing out that the reference is used to back some claim up. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, we can do an informal poll... Han-Kwang (t) 17:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Poll: non free links

Proposal: 'non-free' links are allowed in the external links section of articles.

• Oppose it is harder for other editors to judge whether the link belongs there if he cannot see the contents without payment. (I'm neutral about content requiring free registration) Han-Kwang (t) 17:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's hard to put a finger on it, but I think it has to do with convenience to readers and with our being a 💕. If we link to pay sites, we're really saying that the experience we're offering is going to be better for people who pay than people who don't. We also avoid spam, endorsements, etc., so directing people to a place where they have to pay makes us more commercial. And finally, what's the chance that anyone reading an article is already a subscriber or is going to whip out their credit card just because we sent them there? On a case-by-case basis, very low. So an external link to a pay site is only of use to a tiny fraction of the readers. We require external links to be minimal and of significant interest - so a pay site link almost always would fail that test. If a site requires registration but is free it still has most of these problems. Most people will be turned off by the process so it's not a useful link. And if there's a registration it's not really free - there's an exchange of value. I believe there's wide consensus on this point. Wikidemo (talk) 17:30, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose per Wikidemo, word for word. Franamax (talk) 16:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Reg. required links

The original discussion was about registration, but it looks like "non-free" means something else.

Does anybody want to defend removing all links requiring registration from external links sections? 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It helps if you use section headings that are a bit more descriptive than "sigh" (I changed it now). Han-Kwang (t) 17:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Poll - Proposal: should 'free registration required' links be allowed as external links?

• Neutral - I will follow consensus. Han-Kwang (t) 17:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

*Bad poll question and stop edit warring. The consensus, and status quo, is that these links are not permitted. The question isn't whether anyone "want to defend removing all links" but whether we should change the rules to permit them. I think not, for the reasons discussed above. A number of anonymous IP editors are now edit warring on the guideline page, never a good thing, on a flimsy claim that this brief conversation taking place on a Sunday morning is establishing some kind of new consensus (despite some clear opposition to boot). If you keep that up we're going to have this page semi-protected. Wikidemo (talk) 17:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear: consensus is that no registration-required links should appear on external links sections? 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we please not vote on this issue? I think it is much more helpful to discuss, as we are admonished at the top of the page! 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As ReyBrujo mentioned upthread, non-free sites and sites requiring registration are perfectly acceptable as references, provided they're reliable sources. However, external links sections are intended to provide useful additional material, and I agree with Wikidemo's point that registration severely limits the general usefulness of the link. I also want to make the point that WP:EL is a guideline, not a policy page, and there's always scope for talk page discussion to determine that a non-free or register-to-view site may be linked from an article's external links section on a case-by-case basis. But as a general guideline, I think this practice should be discouraged for the reasons mentioned previously. --Muchness (talk) 17:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(aside) I do agree that we shouldn't be throwing up poll questions. Polls do have a few uses but usually not, and only towards the end of a discussion or when there's a deadlock, to get people to come off the fence and state what they think. If you're reading this, Han-Kwang, please keep that in mind because polling can actually make a disagreement worse instead of better.Wikidemo (talk) 18:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, so both Muchness and Wikidemo think that all external links that require registration should be removed except through discussion on the talk page? I just want to be clear here. 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

This guideline page, which has been stable until today, prohibits such links so yes, that is the consensus until proven otherwise. I agree with that, and admonish people to be slow and avoid contention and edit warring when considering changes to guidelines.Wikidemo (talk) 17:56, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I will go and clarify on the page that that includes various important newspapers. 128.135.197.189 (talk) 17:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Just a heads up to the annons you both could be blocked for WP:3RR right now. lets give the conversation a few days before attempting to change policy. β 18:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, that was weird. I was in the process of issuing a 3RR warning when 128.135.197.189 was blocked. This discussion is such a mess to read and rather unconstructive to boot, and one of the main participants is now blocked, so I suggest we declare it closed and if anyone wants to take the issue up again later they may start a clean new section. Wikidemo (talk) 18:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Agree, β 18:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I requested protection at WP:RFPP. Ideally, I did not want to have the ips blocked because they could add another point of view. I don't like having the list of accepted sites requiring registrations there, mostly because it invites people to add other sites. The anonymous came from somewhere, so it is likely more will come. The only problem was that they changed the guideline directly (and created two different threads here, making "staying in focus" harder). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

current discussion on reg-required links

OK, as far as I can tell from the current discussion (let's leave pay links aside for a moment):

• Betacommand2 thinks that reg-required links are fine.
• Wikidemo thinks that reg-required links should always be removed.
• Muchness thinks that reg-required links should be removed, except if talk page discussion resolves otherwise.

My personal view is that it's pretty clear that major sites such as the Times are absolutely fine as ELs as long as they satisfy the other criteria. And it's also pretty clear that that's the working rule on EL sections all over the wiki -- i.e., the page as it stands does not reflect the consensus of people who do not obsessively monitor guideline pages.

For example, a Times book review seems quite OK. Currently, the page as it stands says that all reg-required links should be removed. What do people think we should do next to clear this up? 128.135.197.189 (talk) 18:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

In this situation, I'd cite the Times book review in the section of the article that discusses the book's critical reception. --Muchness (talk) 18:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The policy explicitly says reviews and interviews are OK for EL. So, do you want to prohibit review ELs, or registration required sites in ELs? 128.135.197.189 (talk) 18:28, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We must differentiate the external links from the references. I favor adding links to sites that require registration when they are used as references (specifically, inline references). But I don't like the idea of having these links added to the External links section, because they can refer to the whole article, a determined section of the article, or nothing in particular. For example, a reliable site that requires registration like The Wall Street Journal or The New York Times or The Times would be used as reference and not external link. So, instead of having an external link that says "Times review for The Book (requires registration)" I would have a paragraph in the "Critical reception" section of the article about The Book to say "British newspaper The Times was critical about The Book presentation, although it considered it an interesting lecture." This not only makes these links appear in the references section (which is true because they are being used as a source for the article) but also they remove them from the External links section (which is likely to be spammed with Amazon links to buy it, reviews hosted in GeoCities-like pages, etc) and allows the user to immediately know what The Times opines about The Book, even though he cannot access the site because it requires registration. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

We are drifting off topic. We all agree that reg-req inline references are fine. The question is: should reg-req be prohibited in ELs? ReyBrujo, could you be explicit on what you think about this issue? Allow, discourage, or forbid? 128.135.197.189 (talk) 18:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As I said, there is no reason for having registration required links in the external links section. They can either be used as references, or removed altogether. Consensus in articles can modify that, of course, but as a general rule, if you have registered to the site and know what the article is about, have the courtesy of using it as a reference for those who haven't registered. If you want to put it in one of those three options, discourage tending to forbid. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:41, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As an aside, the New York Times is a bad example because its articles are available without registration.Wikidemo (talk) 18:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not true; it may be the case if you're accessing from a .edu IP, but in general, you are asked for registration information. It is the payment demand that has gone away. 128.135.197.189 (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a special link URL that allows accessing their pages without registration, which is used by all outlets when linking to them. Show me a URL they require registration, and there will likely be another that makes it accessible without it. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That's interesting to know, but we're drifting off topic again -- my mistake as well. Let's stay focused. 128.135.197.189 (talk) 18:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The guideline page's prohibition on external links to registration sites is no accident or anomaly. It is emphatic and explicit on the point. "Sites requiring registration" is a heading under the "Links normally to be avoided" section, where it is clearly stated, twice, that registration site links are prohibited. As enumerated item #7 in that section, sites that "require payment or registration" should normally not be linked. I don't see any support for your claim that this rule is some kind of accident or oversight. Further, I don't think your claim is right that these links are often used. External link sections tend to be magnets for inexperienced new editors, and for all kinds of spam, but other than having a high noise content and having to be cleaned out regularly, I just don't think it's a regular practice for articles to include external links to registration sites. If you think otherwise, could you point to some? Wikidemo (talk) 18:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I quite understand your point of view; and I agree that the policy is currently clear and unambiguous. It is also silly and out of line with usual practice on the wiki -- experienced users or not. As for reg-req links -- gosh, everywhere, as experienced users I think know! Helen Vendler and Harold Bloom are two articles that I've looked at recently that both have reg-req links in the ELs. 128.135.197.189 (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Nope. Neither article has any external links to registration-required content. The Harold Bloom article's external links section, though, is a complete mess in need of a clean-up and illustrates my point about newbie editors. Wikidemo (talk) 19:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right, Vendler's is NYT, yes. As for Bloom: we are in a bit of a bind: any time there's an article with a reg-req it's a case of a "newbie editor" -- according to you! So perhaps you can come up with a better way for me to show you you're wrong? I should get back to work here, but perhaps (since my own attempts are being reverted) you and others can come up with a better version of the paragraph? 128.135.197.189 (talk) 19:10, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec x 5) Do you agree with me that the one who added the link to the external links section should have added it as a reference backing some text to give you an idea of what the contents of the links are? And Wikidemo, the NYTimes requires registration if you don't have a login and have cleared your cache (it actually takes you to this page). I think it has to do with the referral (to prevent deep linking). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 19:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a NY Times login and it's not asking me to register. My comment about newbie editors is an observation, not a rule. The Harold Bloom article doesn't prove anything except that people can make a mess out of an external link section. Among the 19 links, one is a dead link, one or two is to a site peddling a book, and four are duplicative links to the same person's self-published personal website. Yet none are to a registration site. Bad editing doesn't demonstrate anything about consensus. You haven't supported at all the claim that people are actually linking to registration sites, and frankly, from what I can see your claim to the contrary looks like a simple error of observation.Wikidemo (talk) 19:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal is a registration site and is linked in the Harold Bloom article -- the reason you didn't see it is that the article that is actually linked is a copyvio reproduction of its content on the syr.edu site; I am having the same problem as ReyBrujo accessing the NYT article on Helen Vendler without a login. Would you like further examples of ELs that have reg-req links? 69.17.73.214 (talk) 20:26, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

That's zero examples so far, so sure. No doubt there are a few out there, but I seriously doubt the practice is widespread. Wikidemo (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that's two: NYT in HV, WSJ in HB. You are being deliberately obtuse. 69.17.73.214 (talk) 21:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You've come up with no examples and no cogent argument to support your position. It's not worth discussing this further with you. Wikidemo (talk) 21:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I certainly agree with your latter point. Please make good on your threats and go away? 69.17.73.214 (talk) 22:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Unprotect page

Can we get an assurance that if the page is unblocked, nobody is going to break 3RR again or insist on making changes to the guideline over anybody's principled objection? I've tried discussing this with User:128.135.197.189 on the user's talk page but that's not going anywhere. If I don't see a sign that this is all proceeding in good faith, then as far as I'm concerned this discussion is over and the proposal to change the guideline is simply rejected.Wikidemo (talk) 19:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Leave it protected, it won't harm anyone. And as I said, there is a possibility that both users have come to this page directed by another page (it is interesting that two anonymous arrive here to make changes to the same section of the guideline at virtually the same time, and just after one was warned for 3RR). -- ReyBrujo (talk) 19:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Protecting policy and guideline pages is a harm in itself - it has to be unprotected sooner or later, and as far as I can tell the only source of trouble is these two anonymous IP editors. I share your suspicion that this whole matter has not been handled by all parties in good faith. My position against changing the guideline to allow links to registration sites is clear. So unless anyone has anything new to add, I'm on to more productive things.Wikidemo (talk) 19:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

If you don't want to join in the discussion, you're welcome to leave -- but do please refrain from reverting and undoing other people's work on the page in that case. 69.17.73.214 (talk) 20:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Your word play is not a fair request. My standing position is clear. I have gone well out of my way to patiently explain things to a very misguided editor, but my standing position is clear and I am well within our policies (and defending the integrity of the project) to revert any inappropriate changes made to the guideline. By the way, are you the same user as User:128.135.197.189, or related in some way? Wikidemo (talk) 20:50, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to your position, but if you leave the discussion, please do not return to revert as you have previously done. 69.17.73.214 (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I have done nothing. Your request is improper and you have not been editing in good faith. Please drop this matter.Wikidemo (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the best place to accuse me of things is on my talk page (pick one!), as you have been previously accustomed. 69.17.73.214 (talk) 21:27, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

As you requested I moved the discussion here. You crossed the line there and here of civility and personal attacks. This started when you reverted the same section of the guideline page ten times in less than a day in the face of five experienced editors who restored the guideline language and others who disagreed here on this talk page. You still don't seem to get that that's not allowed here judging from your ongoing warnings to me and others that we shouldn't revert your edits. Your contributions on the project page and in this discussion have not been productive. You are wasting everyone's time. As I said on your talk page, if you're going to edit here, please familiarize yourself with and follow Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines, WP:3RR, WP:EW, WP:NPA, WP:BRD, and WP:NPA being a good place to start.Wikidemo (talk) 21:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Both IPs are out of Chicago Illinois...so they are either connected or this is the biggest coincidence ever. IrishGuy 20:59, 27 January 2008 (UDT)

Hi IG -- yes, of course! 69.17.73.214 (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

pay-per-view

In contrast to the discussion above: There are now several sites out there, where you can create your own content, and when someone visits that page the site provides payment to the creator, or the site (strongly) advocates to add such advertisements. Examples include hubpages ; ehow ; mywikibiz. It is very tempting to create your own page there, and add these to wikipedia, or provide information on such sites which people like to link, resulting in others linking for you.

There is nothing in this guideline about such sites. I understand that there may be in some cases information on such pages which allows it as a reference or even as an external link, but there will often be issues with (some or all of, and maybe others as well): WP:COPYRIGHT, WP:COI, WP:SPAM &c. (these all include reasons to not include the link, but it is not directly mentioned here, and when I add the link to such a page which is not mine, none of them would strictly apply).

May I suggest that we add something about these sites to the guideline, e.g. something along the lines of: 'It is strongly discouraged to link to sites which provide payment to the maintainer of the site, even if it is not your site'?? --Dirk Beetstra 19:05, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Major news media sites (such as the Washington Post) carry ads. I am not privy to the contracts between these sites and the advertisers, but I would imagine there is some connection between the number of views and the payment. So your suggested wording could be construed to strongly discourage links to these reliable sites. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You are right, it should not be the maintainer .. what I meant was the person who published the page on the free hosting site. --Dirk Beetstra 22:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Google books

Sorry for the basic question: Does Google books violate copyright? Is it OK to link to a Google books result of, for example, a page in a copyrighted textbook? Thanks much, delldot talk 07:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)