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Revision as of 01:06, 2 February 2008
 | Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, this article has been placed on a one-revert rule. Any editor who makes more than one revert (and this revert must be discussed on the talk page) in a 7-day period will be blocked. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. ~ Kylu 01:06, 2 February 2008 (UTC) |
 | This article was nominated for deletion on February 18, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus, nearly keep. |
| This article was nominated for deletion on September 9, 2007. The result of the discussion was keep and rename. |
Earlier discussion:
Bringing this article in line with WP:NOR and WP:NEO
User:Jayjg is doing important work right now on the parallel article Jewish lobby; his overdue improvements there should be a model for us here. Specifically, he's emphasized the important distinction between primary-source material that uses the term and secondary source-material that discusses the term itself: "I'm going to have to ruthlessly remove any sources which are mere example of the terms usage, rather than discussions of the term, per WP:NOR and WP:NEO." He's also emphasized how the distinction applies on a sentence-by-sentence level within a single source (i.e. a sentence discussing the term is fine, but a sentence that goes on to describe what the "Jewish lobby" does needs to be removed). We should employ something of the same ruthlessness here; it may well mean that the sections on "Media in the Gaza Strip" and "Other examples" will have to be dropped in their entirety.--G-Dett (talk) 21:34, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Please don't start with wikilawyering again. Even if you're right, the section to be removed would be the "usage" section, not the material you don't like. <<-armon->> (talk) 00:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- Read the post above, and then see WP:NEO: "To support the use of (or an article about) a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term." This is an article about the neologism "Pallywood." The "usage" section is what's appropriate, per WP:NEO; most (but not all) of the other material belongs in Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict. We need to remove any sources which are mere example of the terms usage, rather than discussions of the term, per WP:NOR and WP:NEO.--G-Dett (talk) 01:00, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- This edit was sensibly motivated, and not by "wikilawyering". The most egregious section, "Media in the Gaza Strip," is a recapitulation of a single piece by a (credible) German journalist which happens to use the term "Pallywood," once. It really has no place here per WP:COATRACK; this article is supposed to be about the term. I'm not sure if reference to Durrah should be excised entirely, since it appears to be the keystone of the whole "Pallywood" opinion and thus important for understanding the term. Removal of the "In his video..." section probably went too far; I would cut out about half of it. Something like
In his video, Landes shows Arab-Israeli conflict-related footage, mostly taken by freelance Palestinian video journalists. He believes that systematic media manipulation (which he dubs "Pallywood") dates back to at least the 1982 Lebanon War, and argues that broadcasters are too uncritical of the bona fides of Palestinian freelance footage.
- Landes' video is important to understanding the term, but we should avoid giving undue weight to his conclusions, beyond what's necessary to understand what the term "Pallywood" means.
- The section on Frum should be removed. It's again just an example of usage, and undue weight. A7 (somehow left in before) most certainly should be removed, since it's an extremist, hateful source representing a fringe view. <eleland/talkedits> 01:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
- These are sensible suggested changes; I'll make them now. I left in A7 because it actually discusses the term. I don't know much about it as a source, so I'll leave that to you.--G-Dett (talk) 01:24, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
The problem of identification
Our article currently refers to a statement made by the Israeli network Arutz Sheva, but does not inform readers that this network is widely regarded as be one of the most nationalistic media outlets in Israel, with a strong bias toward a specific variety of right-wing, pro-settler Religious Zionism.
While I recognize the need to avoid describing this group in terms that could skew the discussion (a point that was made in a past dispute involving David Frum), I also think it's misleading for us to leave the reader with no clue as to Arutz Sheva's broader perspective. Could someone suggest a means of resolving this situation? CJCurrie (talk) 21:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Unlike New antisemitism this article is seeking NPOV by being very short...oh well. In this particular case, Arutz-Sheva is cited for an assertion that they make; and it's pretty clear from the assertion what side they are on in this particular issue. We could preface the statement with something like "Arguing for the acceptance of the term..." to make that abundantly clear. But I think we'll run into well-poisoning accusations if we try to characterize the media outlet further. --Leifern (talk) 21:04, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think this is necessarily true. We often identify authors and media outlets with a brief statement that outlines their experience/credibility/focus/perspective etc. I recognize the need to avoid well-poisoning, but I don't believe that identifying A7 as Religious Zionist or right-wing is inherently problematic (except perhaps insofar as the former label could be interpreted as tainting all Religious Zionism by association with these crackpots, but that's another matter entirely). CJCurrie (talk) 21:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- They are cited for a very specific allegation, namely the adoption of a term. We're not using them as a source for the prevalence of fake/staged news events, etc. I realize that you think we should qualify a source and certainly buy reasons for doing so in certain cases; but it's a slippery slope, as many would characterize the Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation and BBC as news outlets with a clear and consistent anti-Israeli bias. So unless we want to accept that kind of description every time any of these is cited for any news item that might be construed as critical to Israel; we have to have a very good reason for qualifying Arutz-7 in this case. --Leifern (talk) 21:35, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'm aware of the "slippery slope" argument as well, but I can't help but think there's a greater risk in providing no qualifying description of this rather extreme source. CJCurrie (talk) 22:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
More examples needed?
I was surprised to see few actual examples of the phenomenon on the page, e.g., staged scenes such as those publicized in the last few days: the Hamas candle incident and Arafat's donation photo op. I don't want to weight the article too much towards recent stories, so perhaps we should compile examples of this, so that the al-Durrah incident isn't the only example. A disinterested party reading this could come to the conclusion that the al-Durrah incident was the only significant example of this phenomenon, when it's just the most widely publicized example. Calbaer (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- This is not an article about allegations of media manipulation or fabrication, but an article about the term "Pallywood". That distinction is important because otherwise the article becomes structurally biased in that it only discusses Palestinian manipulation & fabrication. Neither source provided uses the term "Pallywood". Examples for the term should be reserved for those cases which are relevant to understanding the term. <eleland/talkedits> 22:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly that is apparently not what the article is about, but rather about media fabrication, the POV title is the result of majority (even if partisan) opinion (see ). Of course consensus changes. --Coroebus 20:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- Eh, no it's not. It is, and was always intended to be, about media manipulation and fabrication. It's limited in scope the way you describe because of repeated blanking vandalism. --Leifern (talk) 03:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'll ignore the hysterical claim of vandalism. If you're serious, you need to explain why an article titled with a WP:NEOlogism is somehow exempt from the relevant guideline; to support an article about a particular term we must cite reliable secondary sources such as books and papers about the term—not books and papers that use the term. An editor's personal observations and research are insufficient to support use of neologisms because this is analysis and synthesis of primary source material. (No original research)
- I'm quoting directly from the guideline, and furthermore, the guideline is only a straightforward application of WP:V and WP:NOR. <eleland/talkedits> 03:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Let's also not forget that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. It's been apparent from the start that some editors want to use this article to state this "phenomenon" - which may or may not exist - as a fact. If you have a look at Leifern's very first version of this article you can see what I mean, in the way that he describes highly contentious claims as if they were established facts. You can see the same sort of thing above in Calbaer's comments about the al-Durrah incident - I take it that he's a supporter of the minority POV that it was faked. We need to avoid this kind of one-sidedness; it's a fundamental breach of WP:NPOV. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- ChrisO, if you're going to misrepresent my actions, it would be helpful to your case if you didn't refer to something that directly disproves your point. The version you point to clearly states that the fabrication are "alleged." Nowhere do I make contentious claims out to be factual, and in fact at every turn I have avoided doing that.--Leifern (talk) 16:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I might have misread your intentions - if so, I apologise. Nonetheless, if you look at the two AfDs on this article you'll see that many editors have supported the retention of the article on purely partisan grounds, i.e. because they believe there's a "phenomenon" and want to assert that on Misplaced Pages. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think that accusations of media fraud in a conflict that is so saturated with media coverage are serious and notable enough that they deserve an article that lays out the basis for the accusations as well as the evidence/arguments against it. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, and I've always been open to changing the title to "Charges of news falsification against Israel" or something along those lines. --Leifern (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Beware that what you propose may violate WP:POVFORK. For allegations of media bias as well as arguments against it, please see Media Coverage of the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Pallywood article should limit itself to describing the film by that name. ← Michael Safyan 23:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ehm, no it shouldn't. Look, I know what some editors are trying to do here. They don't like the subject matter, as it embarrasses their strongly held beliefs. So they reduce the meaning of the topic until it's so narrow it's no longer notable. --Leifern (talk) 15:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- An equally significant danger is that of WP:COATRACKing. The same rationale was used to justify the existence of a now-deleted "Barack Obama Muslim rumor" article; in practice, it just turned out to be an unencyclopedic collection of poorly-sourced rumours and conspiracy theories. Such articles are inherently incapable of being properly encyclopedic. To quote WP:COATRACK, "Often the main tool of a coatrack article is fact picking. Instead of finding a balanced set of information about the subject, a coatrack goes out of its way to find facts that support a particular bias. A common fact picking device is listing great amounts of individual peoples' quotes criticizing of the nominal subject, while expending little or no effort mentioning that the criticism comes from a small fraction of people. That small fraction thus gets a soapbox that is far larger than reality warrants. Even though the facts may be true as such, the proportional volume of the hand-picked facts drowns other information, giving a false impression to the reader." This article had exactly those same problems for a long time, until it was cleaned up (though it's still not ideal); if it was expanded along the lines of Leifern's suggstion, it would end up even worse than it originally was. -- ChrisO (talk) 02:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Correction: it would end up more disagreeable to your POV than it is. Media fraud is a well-known phenomenon at this point and is getting increasing attention. The fact that the criticism comes from a small number of people is completely irrelevant - the media fraud is documented and persists. Even Charles Enderlin is starting to fess up. --Leifern (talk) 15:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Beware that what you propose may violate WP:POVFORK. For allegations of media bias as well as arguments against it, please see Media Coverage of the Arab-Israeli Conflict. The Pallywood article should limit itself to describing the film by that name. ← Michael Safyan 23:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- I think that accusations of media fraud in a conflict that is so saturated with media coverage are serious and notable enough that they deserve an article that lays out the basis for the accusations as well as the evidence/arguments against it. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary, and I've always been open to changing the title to "Charges of news falsification against Israel" or something along those lines. --Leifern (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I might have misread your intentions - if so, I apologise. Nonetheless, if you look at the two AfDs on this article you'll see that many editors have supported the retention of the article on purely partisan grounds, i.e. because they believe there's a "phenomenon" and want to assert that on Misplaced Pages. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:13, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
- ChrisO, if you're going to misrepresent my actions, it would be helpful to your case if you didn't refer to something that directly disproves your point. The version you point to clearly states that the fabrication are "alleged." Nowhere do I make contentious claims out to be factual, and in fact at every turn I have avoided doing that.--Leifern (talk) 16:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Let's also not forget that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox. It's been apparent from the start that some editors want to use this article to state this "phenomenon" - which may or may not exist - as a fact. If you have a look at Leifern's very first version of this article you can see what I mean, in the way that he describes highly contentious claims as if they were established facts. You can see the same sort of thing above in Calbaer's comments about the al-Durrah incident - I take it that he's a supporter of the minority POV that it was faked. We need to avoid this kind of one-sidedness; it's a fundamental breach of WP:NPOV. -- ChrisO (talk) 11:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Eh, no it's not. It is, and was always intended to be, about media manipulation and fabrication. It's limited in scope the way you describe because of repeated blanking vandalism. --Leifern (talk) 03:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindenting) My POV, as you call it, is simply that we have to follow Misplaced Pages's NPOV and sourcing policies, describe the arguments fairly and neutrally, and not give undue weight to views that have little or no support in reliable sources. The fact that "the criticism comes from a small number of people" is actually highly relevant, given our policy on undue weight. It's clear from your comments on Enderlin that you're a supporter of the al-Durrah conspiracy theory, but as I'm sure you're aware (or should be), you can't use Misplaced Pages as a platform to promote your POV, particularly if - as you've just acknowledged - it's the POV of a small minority in the debate. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- Those motivations you claim, ChrisO, are scarcely in evidence in your edits. Such self-righteous proclamations, coupled with personal attacks, and unilateral efforts to gut the article, don't reassure me much. Enderlin has recently commented on other media fraud incidents lately, and I wasn't referring to his al-Durrah story directly or indirectly. I don't have any opinion on what happened with Mohammad al-Durrah, but I think there are a lot of unanswered questions related to the story. The death of a young boy is not a frivolous matter. If you see my comments on the matter on the relevant talk pages, it should be very clear what my view is. I don't know what your measure is of a "small minority" but the al-Durrah controversy and other alleged cases of media fraud are covered by pretty mainstream media outlets. --Leifern (talk) 14:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
- First, I really don't appreciate your personal attacks and constant assumptions of bad faith. I'm not attempting to "gut the article" as you put it - simply, as I've already said, to make sure we follow Misplaced Pages's NPOV and sourcing policies. Second, your revert of my edits - complete with assumed bad faith in the edit summary - is very unhelpful and I would strongly advise you against using reverts in that way. To quote WP:REVERT, "Do not revert good faith edits. In other words, try to consider the editor "on the other end." If what one is attempting is a positive contribution to Misplaced Pages, a revert of those contributions is inappropriate unless, and only unless, you as an editor possess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. Mere disagreement is not such proof. See also Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith." Reverting because of WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not an endorsed editing method. I'll remind you of the sanctions imposed in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, which I've asked to be implemented on this article as well. We need to ensure that constructive editing takes place on this article in future, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's policies, rather than the sort of aggressive and confrontation reverting that's been typical on articles in this topic area. To quote again: "Generally there are misconceptions that problematic sections of an article or recent changes are the reasons for reverting or deletion. If they contain valid information, these texts should simply be edited and improved accordingly. Reverting is not a decision which should be taken lightly."
- I've therefore restored the edits that you reverted. If you disagree with my changes, let's discuss them here on the talk page, which is what's supposed to happen. To summarise the changes:
- 1) I've revised the article to focus on the two specific issues mentioned in the lead: Landes' video and the wider user of the term. The previous version had a section about Landes, then a section about other people's use of the term, then another section about Landes. The revised version is more coherent, focusing on Landes first then covering the wider use of the term. The al-Durrah subsection has been shortened, summarised and folded into the Landes section so that it's related specifically to Landes' video. I assume that Liftarn's use of the coatrack tag was related to that subsection; it's certainly not necessary to recap the al-Durrah story in much detail, particularly if we're focusing specifically on its relationship to Landes' video.
- 2) WP:UNDUE is an essential element of NPOV. I've therefore taken out the bit about "Pallywood" being used on Usenet, as it's impossible to see this as being of any significance - it was used once by one completely unknown individual in an obscure newsgroup. It's impossible to relate it to any later usages, so we have no way of assessing its etymological importance. And Usenet is, of course, not a reliable source.
- 3) I've changed the line that read "Professor Richard Landes of Boston University is credited with having given the term currency in 2005." Who credited him with this and where? It's not supported in the sources as far as I can see. On the other hand, we can certainly say that he gave the term prominence, because our sources do support that.
- 4) I've added some contextual and definition info from a recent Jerusalem Post article that (for once) specifically cites and defines the term.
- 5) I've removed a citation from Honestreporting.com, a Pajamas Media blog. Per this discussion, Pajamas Media isn't generally accepted as a "reliable, third-party, published source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" (to quote WP:V). It isn't necessary to quote it anyway - the same point is more than adequately covered by the genuinely reliable sources listed. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Chris's edits were sensible and in accordance with policy. We should not be relying on sources like "Honest Reporting," which is the website of an advocacy group, or on random Usenet postings from 2002. And we should not be portraying the al-Durra case as if it's widely regarded as "Pallywood" rather than the specific accusation of a specific source. I'm not sure why Leifern is so determined to portray this as vandalism or censorship. Can we just talk about it sensibly and in good faith? <eleland/talkedits> 00:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
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