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New article, briefly explaining the process. Adam Cuerden 08:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Cut paragraph

Homeopaths claim that such diluted solutions can have therapeutic effects despite the absence of solute. A proposed explanation invokes water memory, a controversial idea that shaking (or "succussing") at each stage of the dilution can leave an "imprint" of the original molecules on the solvent. However, no mechanism by which this could take place is apparent, and liquid water has been shown to lose memory of any structure within 50 femtoseconds. Consequently, the proposed mechanisms of homeopathy are generally considered highly implausible by mainstream science.

While this may be useful later, I agree that, as the article stands, this is too much information. Adam Cuerden 14:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, this article is misleading about homeopathy. After all, there is such a thing as a 1M solution using homeopathy notation, which is dilution by a factor of 100 1000 times. And then there is 1 molar solution, which is a 1 mole/ liter solution, sometimes written as 1 M as is done in this article. So this entire section is misleading confusing and a mess. See my current rough draft in the sandbox: . So I have a few misgivings about this article. It is so tiny and this homeopathy section is such a scrap of forked material, that I wonder about it. Even the nonhomeopathy section needs much much more material and cites and links etc. --Filll (talk) 16:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the details of which factor the serial dilution is doesn't matter much for this discussion, and we do say that it's only one example. Point of this article is to explain the basic concept of serial dilution, not to get pedantic over the eight types used in homeopathy. Adam Cuerden 17:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok fair enough. As long as one tries to avoid confusion on notation.--Filll (talk) 17:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I've changed the use of M (molar) to use mol/L instead, and added a ref. for the use of serial dilution in bacteria counting. Your draft on homeopathic concentration looks great, but I'd say that that is a different topic, which can certainly be linked from this article. This article can be about the method in general, which is used in mainstream science in many fields such as analytical chemistry, microbiology, and clinical chemistry. The article is currently short and lacks some references, but it is very new and can improve. Not all articles are born ready to be Featured Articles! --Itub (talk) 17:43, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Reverted

While it is mathematically correct that no molecules of original substance are present in 12C or higher potencies, only a few test tubes of water are actually used in dilution and succussion. Homeopaths believe that the repeated agitation of the water with each successive dilution causes some physical alteration of the structure of the water which they consider biologically active.

If editors are going to present a mathematical argument about relative volumes of water it should be stated that we're not actually talking about very much water at all here. —Whig (talk) 04:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the article about serial dilution. One suspects they'll have picked that up. Adam Cuerden 05:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you can leave it implied, otherwise why include the mathematical argument at all? This seems to be presenting one side of an argument only, which goes against NPOV. —Whig (talk) 05:08, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please don't start that "I'm the only arbiter of NPOV" thing again. Adam Cuerden 05:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a chemistry article?

Within chemistry M = molarity = mol/L. This is an article about a simple chemical process so 1 M should suffice to mean 1 mol/L. But it seems that some religion defines M otherwise, it can't be used in describing a chemistry process? Severe undue weight problems here.
I removed a belief qualification from the homeopathy section - the section should be cut to no more than a one sentence see also ... for use in ... or whatever - where the beliefs and nonchemical use of M can be discussed at length - per WP:UNDUE. Vsmith (talk) 05:13, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the purpose of the procedure is important for context, but I would certainly state that this is not a chemistry issue at all nor does it claim to be. —Whig (talk) 05:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Cowan ML, Bruner BD, Huse N; et al. (2005). "Ultrafast memory loss and energy redistribution in the hydrogen bond network of liquid H₂O". Nature. 434 (7030): 199–202. doi:10.1038/nature03383. PMID 15758995. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
2. Anonymous (1988). "When to believe the unbelievable". Nature. 333 (6176): 787. doi:10.1038/333787a0.
3. Shang A, Huwiler-Müntener K, Nartey L; et al. (2005). "Are the clinical effects of homoeopathy placebo effects? Comparative study of placebo-controlled trials of homoeopathy and allopathy". Lancet. 366 (9487): 726–732. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(05)67177-2. PMID 16125589. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
4. Ernst E, Pittler MH (1998). "Efficacy of homeopathic arnica: a systematic review of placebo-controlled clinical trials". Archives of surgery (Chicago, Ill. : 1960). 133 (11): 1187–90. PMID 9820349.
5. Cite error: The named reference Ernst2005 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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