User talk:Jehochman: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 21:43, 2 February 2008 editJehochman (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers46,281 edits →Socks for User:CompScientist: thanks for this information← Previous edit		Revision as of 21:44, 2 February 2008 edit undoJehochman (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers46,281 edits →Enforcement: abusers will be bannedNext edit →
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	==Enforcement==		==Enforcement==
	Why is this remark considered an appropriate and constructive contribution? I must say, I'm concerned about lack of even-handedness in enforcement of the article probation. ] (]) 20:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)		Why is this remark considered an appropriate and constructive contribution? I must say, I'm concerned about lack of even-handedness in enforcement of the article probation. ] (]) 20:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

			:]. All the abusers will be banned soon enough. By moving slowly we can ensure that the bans stick. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

	== Socks for User:CompScientist ==		== Socks for User:CompScientist ==

Revision as of 21:44, 2 February 2008

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Follow up to ANI thread

Follow up to this ANI thread

If you want specific examples, the (failed) discussion (several months ago now) to ban User:Gene Nygaard is a good one. I supported Gene in that, and Gene has done, and is continuing to do, excellent work. Some people got exasperated with what were (in my opinon) minor civility issues, and (even where it was obvious they were involved and biased) started calling for a ban. That really shocked me. I think talk of exhausting the "community's patience" often translates as "exhausting the patience of those who have the least patience and who call for a ban over the wishes of those who have more patience". I can dig up links to that discussion if you want. In essence, I think that one of the options in these "community ban" discussions, where there is a small minority opinion dissenting from the ban, should be to go to ArbCom and let them decide. Community ban discussions can be a bit hit-and-miss. To raise another example, there is a user who I feel could still be a productive editor (but could equally go back to his old ways - no real way of telling until he is unblocked), but who is indefinitely blocked at the moment. It has become clear to me that part of the reason he is still blocked is inexperience with the system. People often say, oh, people can e-mail unblock-l (the unblocking mailing list), but I recently looked at the message people get when they are blocked, and there are references to some form people have to fill in to send to that list and apply to be unblocked. I really hope that is not as bureaucratic as it sounds. In this case, the talk page was protected. I would like to see the talk page unprotected, so a normal unblock request can be made, and I would like to avoid the "you haven't fully explained why you won't do this again" response that sometimes happens to unblock requests (asking people to write essays on what they did wrong is not always helpful, and neither is failing the unblock request on a technicality - much better to engage in discussion and find out answers to the unanswered questions). ie. cursory, pedantic and dismissive unblock request responses are very bad and breed a sense of injustice and a sense of "I don't want to see you unblocked, but instead of explaining why, I will fail the unblock request on a technicality". The other point is that when the blocking admin declines to unblock when another admin objects, what should be done then? I would like a way to have an independent review without the drama of ANI threads. Could I e-mail another admin and ask them to review the situation? Carcharoth (talk) 07:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Examples of my concern over community ban discussions are here, and at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Adam Cuerden 2 (see here - careful, that is an undelete link). I was disgusted to see the community ban threat being used during an RfC like that (however unwarranted the RfC may have been). In the end, it all got deleted anyway. The third case, the one I want advice on, I would prefer to discuss over e-mail. Could I e-mail you for advice? Carcharoth (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

"...has endorsed the idea"

I am wondering about this:.

You say Grandmasterka endorsed the idea of Elonka resigning. But looking through GMK's contributions I don't see any such endorsement. Perhaps you misread? _{(1 == 2)} 15:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing, I'm not sure Grandmasterka has actually supported the idea, so maybe refractoring that until it is confirmed may be best. — Save_Us † 15:26, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Done, and thank you. Jehochman 15:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears my clue as been absorbed. _{(1 == 2)} 15:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Clarification

In your Franco-Mongol alliance ArbCom statement, you are using "resigned" in a way that sounds misleading. PHG is requesting that Elonka resign (i.e. give up) her adminship, while you note that I "resigned as mediator because the process was failing". The juxtaposition of the two pieces sounds, in my opinion, unclear about the fact that I just closed the case and didn't resign much. -- tariqabjotu 15:25, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Done, and thank you. Jehochman 15:29, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

User Stagalj

Some editing which I explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Ante_Paveli%C4%87 have been reverted by Stagalj with the explanation that he was "fixing damaged text." He seems to be driven by an obsession to define IMRO as terrorists, which I have argued several times to be POV. As he fully understands the talk-page process I wonder whether his wholesale reverting, without reasonable explanation, amounts to vandalism. Perhaps you could take a look if you get time. Kirker (talk) 17:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Piperdown

Now that the discussion is over, how does one go about re-deleting User:Piperdown/1, which had been previously deleted and was restored during the pendency of discussion?--Mantanmoreland (talk) 20:32, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted it and left a note for User:Krimpet to confirm. Jehochman 20:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 20:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi MM, I think you have one more request to make (diff) R. Baley (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm one step ahead of you. Blanked it a few minutes ago. You, if you have the tools, or Jehochman should feel free to delete it if you feel it is warranted.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

All set. Jehochman 21:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, is it OK for me to add some comments to the archived discussion page? I see from here that it seems to be allowed.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 20:58, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

That was the fastest response I have ever received!--Mantanmoreland (talk) 20:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Meant with the greatest of respect, really.

Your archiving was ill-advised. David hadn't even weighed in yet.

More to the point, you completely ignored the fact that your pseudo-policy - the "three ways" that you numbered as your last word - were already addressed by several people on the thread and pointed out as a novel innovation. Plainly put, you were and are wrong about that. Consensus is not required to undo an action if a good faith attempt has been made to discuss it on a public forum or with the original admin. You know that, and your attempting to heave it over to arbcom is unhelpful, and, frankly, a damn dangerous thing to do. We can't go running to arbcom every single time, and your preferred approach creates too great a first-mover advantage, which is a particularly poor institutional structure.

I suggest you try and avoid actions like this in the future. Clamping down on discussion only makes the next outbreak of drama worse. I would have thought you'd noticed that by now. Relata refero (talk) 22:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You may contact David Gerard (talk · contribs) and ask him to explain the block.
My "pseudo policy" was a statement of the position in that particular moment. It was not policy.
Consensus is most certainly required to undo an admin action, except in cases of obvious errors, or occasionally per ignore all rules when there is a pressing need, which is not the case here. ArbCom has made this clear on several occasions.
"Heaving over to arbcom" is not at all dangerous. The user, should they wish to be unblocked, can email ArbCom and request a review. Reviews are conducted by individual members of the Committee. This is much simpler than bringing a case.
I do not see how a first mover advantage is worse than the utter chaos that results from wheel warring, or from a second mover advantage.
The length of that discussion was exceptional. The user requested unblocking not because they wanted to edit, but because they wanted to blank their user pages and mark their account retired. This was done for them by an administrator. There was no need to unblock, and no consensus to do so. The thread was deteriorating rapidly. People were repeating the same arguments over and over again, and beginning to insult and provoke each other. Since no further administrative action was possible, and the user received the result that they requested, and the conversation was creating bad blood, it was clearly time to end the discussion.

Thank you for your comments. I hope this response is helpful in some way, although I recognize you may not agree with me. Jehochman 01:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You can always recognise the fresh-faced ones - they actually reply in points. Thank you.

You're right, I don't agree, but I think perhaps I wasn't clear either.

Consensus is most certainly reqired to undo an admin action, according to ArbCom: which ruling is this? Seriously, point me to the statement of principle. (Plus, ArbCom does not make policy.)

Second, I meant 'dangerous' in the sense that it empowers the first mover when ArbCom is busy, as it always is and will be. Why is a strong first-mover advantage bad? It's chaotic. (Which is why most real-world institutions do not preserve a strong first-mover advantage. Think about it, or read Dennis Mueller's Public Choice.) On WP, you'd have people being bold all over the place without a hope of undoing it if three other admins supported it. Which is precisely what we don't want, and never have. HAve you even read WP:BRD? What's the second part of that cycle, pray? (For that matter, what's the third?)

The discussion was long. So make a subpage. Over time discussions here will get longer, not shorter, and you can't keep turning them all off. People were insulting each other from line one, so it wasn't getting worse.

Finally, it seems to me that the user wanted to be unblocked, not just a deletion, judging by the quotes I saw; and further, I expected to see an analysis of the original block as well. So your statement that no further action was possible is obviously untrue.

Cheers.

Relata refero (talk) 06:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Miscellany for Deletion

Hello Jehochman:

I am putting a note here because I see your name, along with others, here:

Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Adam Cuerden 2.

My question, may I see the deleted document or is it gone, fini, caput, etc?

I will explain why I'm asking if this will help.

Thank you, Wanderer57 (talk) 01:40, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I withdrew that nomination. Afterwards, the page may have been deleted by somebody else. Let me look... User:Ryan Postlethwaite deleted it with the reason, "insufficiently certified RfC and strong consensus that there is no disruptive behaviour". For further inquiries about this, you may contact him. Jehochman 01:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 14:22, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Old post up above

Hi there. Was wondering if you missed this? Carcharoth (talk) 02:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I did miss it! My page has been busy. Please email me the case you'd like to discuss. I agree that the community banning process needs to be overhauled. I am wondering if we should move the ban discussions from ANI to an RfC-like page? An RfC can stay open much longer than an ANI thread, while there can be a link on AN and ANI advertising the discussion. Within the RfC, views can be presented, and if no administrator opposes, a ban or other remedy, such as a topic ban can be implemented. There should be a certification requirement to make sure bans are not proposed willy nilly. In the event that there is administrator opposition to a proposed remedy, then the matter can be referred to Arbcom, and the RfC would be a good starting point to understand the dispute. Jehochman 02:29, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Other issues are the community unbanning, and un-indef-blocking processes. We could clarify these processes to assist those who may want to use them. We should also look at the message blocked users see, and do any copy editing that would improve the usability of that page and minimize bureaucracy. Jehochman 02:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ooh. Mission creep! :-) Reform all of Misplaced Pages in a day! Well, maybe tomorrow. I'll check back here then, and deal with the e-mail tomorrow as well. Carcharoth (talk) 04:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

My Rfa

I wish to thank you for being supportive of my effort to regain my adminship. Though it was not successful, your support was still very much appreciated. Let me know if there is anything I can do for you. Thank you!--MONGO 06:03, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiPedia has a Problem

I tried adding a video link to a story that Prescott Bush was pro Hitler and anti FDR, to the Talk:Prescott Bush user User:Veritas started an edito war with me clayming that WP:NOT#FORUM and violated WP:3RR. I wanted to file a 3RR violation complaint but my browser froze and I lost the edit. I was to tired and went to sleep. When I walk up User:VirtualSteve blocked me from editing for 31 hours claiming disruptive style of editing while not even examining the other editor's actions. It is not the first time VirtualSteve has admonished me in vaine. Last time when I asked him help with a deletion of a mistaken user page creation he called me a Troll. Later I reported the bug to bugzilla. VirtualSteve refering to me as an Aligator on his Talk page.

This is the Veritas WP:OWNERSHIP issue. User_talk:Igorberger#WP:NOT

This is VirtualSteve abusive admin action User_talk:Igorberger#January_2008

Right at the same time I was blocked a WikiPedia Propoganda article was published. http://naturalhealthperspective.net/2008/01/26/gohdes-apprentice/

Doe VirtualSteve own http://naturalhealthperspective.net

Please investigate! Igor Berger (talk) 06:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds like a fringe video to me. If you were edit warring, getting blocked is the usual result. Jehochman 06:47, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not a fringe video because later I realized the reporters story, "How Bush's gradfther helped Hitler raise to power http://www.guardian.co.uk/germany/article/0,,1312542,00.html already incorporated in the article Prescott Bush#Nazi collaboration controversy Prescott_Bush#_note-Guardian. Also the editor waring with me had no reason to thow templates at my talk page and call me a vandal. I am an editor as well. And he did not respect the 3RR.

Please ask VirtualSteve, politely, to explain what the problem was. Jehochman 07:03, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Last time I politely asked for his help he called me a Troll. Request to User_talk:Peachyms/ delete the erronies page was called Trolling by VirtualSteve Igor Berger (talk) 07:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your guidance. The issue between VirtualSteve and me has been resolved. Igor Berger (talk) 10:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Back to the root of the problem, I hope VirtualSteve can help me clarify it. But User:Veritas thinks I am trolling his page because I came to extend my hand to him. Let's see if VS can help out and clear the air out so we can nip this in the bud..:) But I am really supprised to see veteren user Veritas template nublets and regulars, he should know better. Regards, Igor Berger (talk) 18:15, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Igor

Hi Jehochman - you have probably followed the thread of edits already but I note on my return to wiki this afternoon the nonsense above. Although he has not taken your advice - and given his manipulation of the system on your page - I am unlikely to even answer him but at this stage in good faith I have pre-empted his coming to my page or continuing with his current line above by posting notices regarding this abundant untruthfulness here, and here--VS 08:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

VirtualSteve, why do I want to come to your page after you asumed bad faith on my part and called my a Troll and a crocodile and a destructive editor. You are violating WP:NPA Igor Berger (talk) 09:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Please come to my talk page Igor - politely - leave Jehochman alone - stop telling stories and point me to exact diffs of these complaints. Then I can show you why you are a troll, why you were warned by other editors for trolling, why I never called YOU a crocodile (you were not even a part of the conversation) and why you are a destructive editor. I will also post this edit on your talk page and will not respond further anywhere else. So please come to my talk page when you are ready.--VS 09:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Done, Igor Berger (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 10:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

So I thought but instead of deescalating the matter VirtualSteve is thowing more gasoline on the fire This is what he said to me when I asked him for help, "VirtualSteve can you telll User:Veritas I am not Trolling you or him - Not a chance - Veritas was and is correct" Igor Berger (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed re-direct!

Cows In Action is very notable now, incase you didn't know. Before re-directing the page again, please please search on google. THANK YOU. (Donmardon (talk) 16:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC))

Answer

Your not allowed to say your age, are you? just tell me.

We do not want minors to publish their ages because (1) they could be targeted by bad people, and (2) sometimes bad people pose as minors in order to lure other minors into trouble. Jehochman 16:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Troll

User:Jehochman I know you stated your opinion on this already, but I would like you to take a look at this Talk:Troll_(Internet)#Wikipedia_Troll. Thank you, Igor Berger (talk) 08:04, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Re:Spanpo

I added User Spanpo because he has the same or similar userpage to some of the other socks and he was mentioned here as a confirmed sock but was not blocked so I assumed that Spebi accidentally missed him when blocking. Thanks Harland1 (/_c) 16:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC).

Aye. It looks like that one was accidentally skipped. I have blocked it now. Thank you. Jehochman 04:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize

JH, I apologize to you personally for reneging on my "works for me". I promise that I am done now. I appreciate your fairness, Jonathan. I know I pushed it a bit far this time. --JustaHulk (talk) 02:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I am glad. Know thyself. Each of us has hot button issues that we are best to avoid. Just recuse yourself from all Smee-related activities and you will be fine. Cheers, Jehochman 04:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Your closing note at WP:ANI

Your closing note at WP:ANI is inaccurate. I have been "ignoring" JustaHulk (talk · contribs)/Justanother (talk · contribs). I just pointed that out in the WP:ANI thread. In fact, I was heeding your warning from the last thread he started at WP:AN. It was he that brought this up, again, not me. So how can you feel you have to caution both of us, and not just him, when I have been following your advice??? Cirt (talk) 04:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It was not my purpose to single people out. If you are not going to do what somebody warns you not to do, then you have nothing to worry about. You do get my point that JustWhoever is not allowed to bother you, and likewise, you will not choose to interact with them. Peace, Jehochman 04:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Noted. However if only one person obviously breaks your warning to them, and the other one does not, I hope that in the future you will not warn caution both parties again, but rather just call out obviously disruptive activity on the part of whichever singular user is not paying attention to your warning. Cirt (talk) 04:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If you didn't show up at the thread, I would have only needed to warn the party who was present. Next time, I recommend you remain silent if you do not wish to draw attention. Jehochman 04:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Your words are wise. It is difficult to remain silent in the presence of (still) unfounded WP:NPA accusations of "propagandist" and the like. It's hard because when I see an attempt being made to sully my name on very public boards, it is hard to keep silent. Cirt (talk) 04:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been through that myself. It's the hardest thing to walk away, but it really is the best. Jehochman 04:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, in certain cases I have been silent, and then later people misinterpret things or get the wrong idea because I never explained myself, commented, or presented my case/side of the story. But I do tend to agree with you that in the aggregate, your suggestion is the best approach with regards to this situation and others. Cirt (talk) 04:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

MfD

I've just added headings to hopefully separate some of the issues on the Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:wikipedia-en-admins (3rd nomination) page - would you like to comment again? --Joopercoopers (talk) 15:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi Jehochman

Hi Jehochman. I am quite surprised about several of your very aggressive statements regarding the Franco-Mongol alliance and myself. Please be aware that I have always been willing to compromise (and a cursory glance at the article will show you all the instances of allies/vassals, and disclaimers by Elonka that have long been included in the article), and I trust I have been the most supple and responsive party at Mediation (you can ask Tariqabjotu). I am very serene about my own editing, as everything I contribute is taken from proper published sources. I know the subject is quite arcane, and most people are surprised by it, but I think I have been very thourough and quite objective in covering it. I would appreciate if you could have a slightly more balanced opinion on the subject. Best regards. PHG (talk) 19:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, I am surprised to have waited three days with no reply from you to a thread you started at my user talk about this RFAR. You wrote "The most serious assertion at this RFAR is misrepresentation of sources. I have seen no actual evidence to substanitate this. " I have now provided one example to demonstrate an issue worth investigating. Please see my statement, at the bottom. Of course I was unable to do so because the one example you provided was a link to a deleted page. Why go out of your way to invite me to look at something I can't see, then leave me hanging when I reply that I can't see it? Durova 19:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

If the case is accepted, evidence will be presented and deleted articles will be undeleted if necessary. PHG, I did contact El C and asked him to look into this because he knows something about the history of Jerusalem. He says that he found a few references about Mongols in Jerusalem, so it may be worth your while to follow up with him. Durova, if you look at these articles, and then pull up a few of the books listed as references by using Google Scholar, I think you will find a startling disconnect between what the sources say and what the articles say. Jehochman 19:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

That's all well and good, and reads like a reply to some other question I didn't ask. Please be more considerate of my time. It's not very polite to draw another Wikipedian's attention to evidence you know they can't read, then direct the person elsewhere when they ask why. Durova 20:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I have asked an uninvolved arbitration clerk to provide you with a copy of the relevant article. Sorry for the delay. I am not going to undelete this article myself because I am potentially an involved party. If my request is approved, you should receive a copy very soon. Jehochman 20:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

What do you think

User:Igorberger/Social engineering (Internet)

This is a user essay that I would like to move to main space as an essay once I finished with it. I am almost done, just syntax and structure. Igor Berger (talk) 19:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks good WP:SEI you can show it to Harvard..:) Igor Berger (talk) 05:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Probation

You think that is the way to go? I am not so sure, but maybe.--Filll (talk) 20:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Let's try. If it doesn't work, we can undo it. Jehochman 20:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Well the problem is not so much incivility. There is a group, represented by User:Orangemarlin and User: Peter morrell for example, are not always civil, but who cares? They are productive and are willing and able to follow the rules and they have demonstrated this, and as far as I am concerned, that is the main thing.

However, there is a second group, consisting of a good half dozen or more "regulars" on the homeopathy pages, and a few socks, anons, meats, etc that appear and disappear, that are (1) unproductive (2) reject ideas to try to make things productive or cooperative or bury the page in text spew repeating the same nonsense over and over so we are flooded with garbage and cannot function and (3) are unable and / or unwilling to follow the rules and procedures of Misplaced Pages.

I do not know if the administrative structions can handle or are even aware of the second group, since they are civil. The administrative procedures go after the first group, because they are easy to spot, particularly when one says something like "You are a flaming $#^%*!!". The system "works" and targets people from group 1, but over and over and over, ignores people from group 2.

It is just too hard and too much effort to sanction people from group two, compared to people from group one. So that is what the system does; it follows the easy path.

And we get what we get. Now by being even more aggressive, will the attention be focused on group one or group two? Cracking down on group one harder will do NOTHING that is needed. It is group two that is our root problem. --Filll (talk) 20:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It all depends on how uninvolved administrators interpret "disruptive edits". That should mean more than incivility--it should apply to misrepresenting sources, obstructing efforts to reach consensus, and so on. --Akhilleus (talk) 21:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Regarding warning tag that was removed on homeopathy talk page: Is this the discussion you are talking about? Anthon01 (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC)\

Yes and if it goes into effect, a lot of the people on the talk page and on the article will not do what they have been doing for the last few weeks and months without penalty.--Filll (talk) 21:09, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I hope this helps. Anthon01 (talk) 23:18, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Relevant articles

No doubt you're aware of many of the articles that should be included in this probation, but I thought I'd offer a little help...Here's a short list of articles that definitely need to be included as homeopathy-based arguments have spilled over:

And maybe these, too:

Perhaps more soon...(?) — Scientizzle 22:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

By the way, when WP:AN gets archived, you'll probably want to update the link within Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation so it points to the archived community discussion. (Otherwise, someone will complain.) (Someone will probably complain anyway, but at least we'll have a pointer to the discussion.) --Elkman 22:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes! That is why I have been linking to the subpage from everywhere else. That way the link to the discussion only needs to be updated in just one place. Jehochman 22:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

There are homeopathy probation tags being placed on non-homeopathy pages and on pages with no history of edit wars. What gives? Who decides what pages are related to homeopathy? Anthon01 (talk) 23:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Relevant talk here. The template talk should be the place to contest a specific article being on probation as a central place. Lawrence § t/e 23:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Any subject connected to homeopathy, broadly construed can be tagged. If there are tagging problems, go to WP:AN so more people can see the discussion. The template talk page should be reserved specifically for questions about the template itself. If an editor with a history of editing homeopathy articles removes a tag, that's probably a bad sign. If a previously uninvolved editor, non-

Article probation notification

You are well-aware that this article is covered under the Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation. Please do not edit war, or you may be placed under an editing restriction, such as revert limitation or topic ban. Thank you. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I have notified User:Thatcher. He, or somebody else, will be along shortly to rectify this situation. Jehochman 16:51, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

How do we get pass this

Is there any way to get past this? High quality RS are simply being rejected. How is disruptive editing defined? Anthon01 (talk) 17:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Duplicate

Why was my ack that I was notified via posting a duplicate? Honestly confused. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

If your name is on the page, you can hardly claim unawareness! Let us keep the list as short as possible by not listing people more than once. Jehochman 18:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Fine by me! PouponOnToast (talk) 18:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:)

Nice touch. Rudget . 19:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Rfa thanks

I am not one for sending round pretty pictures, but after my recent RfA, which passed 68/1/7, I am now relaxed and this is to thank you for your support. I will take on board all the comments made and look forward to wielding the mop with alacrity. Or two lacrities. --Rodhullandemu (Talk) 20:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Note

I was recently blocked for 8 minutes for posting a message on AN/I regarding SA. The admin who did that reverted the block after a closer look. I know you have your job cut out for you. Do I have the right to bring this to the AN/I page without fear of getting blocked again? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anthon01 (talk • contribs) 21:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, can do that. However, I think it would be better to give ScienceApologist a little space and see if they calm down by themselves. They are receiving advice from friendly editors, and hopefully that will serve. Jehochman 21:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I responded on the AN/I page. Anthon01 (talk) 23:26, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I am relatively new here (3 months) and am still learning the ropes. I hope you can help me with these questions. I explained the edit history on the AN/I page that lead me to post the incident involving SA. If I would have seen you notice prior to posting I would not have posted it. The response I got from East have left me unsure what the rules are. Had that comment been posted on the AN page as a question, instead of a question/request, would it have been perceived and handled differently? Was that a more appropriate place and way to post it? I made a comment here. If I make a similar comment on the AN will that be considered shopping in some way. I'm not sure how much attention is being paid to the probation template page. Thanks for your input. Anthon01 (talk) 14:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Homeo

Look, I'm generally on your side, but the "(→Throwing in the towel - remove incivil remark)" was not uncivil. It was a statement of fact: if the barnstar were merited, there'd be no dispute: as it is, that stupid thing has cost us one good editor. Nice.Jim62sch 23:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Please repost your comment, but leave out the "BS". You can make the same point, even stronger, with less strident language. We have to set a good example for the others. Jehochman 23:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I can buy that ... but how can I be less strident? :) I'll manage. Thanks. Jim62sch 23:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Standshown/Stagalj

I am having 3rd similar SPA account and possible solution of this problem. This last SPA account is User:Smerdyakoff .I am 99 % sure that User:Smerdyakoff is somebody puppet. His first wiki edit has been Misplaced Pages talk:Neutral point of view ?? There are 2 connection between this accounts. All 3 are created in late october 2007 or latter and all 3 has edited article Neo-Nazism (parts about Croatia and Serbia). This is important because that article has been very popular for user:Velebit and his puppets (last puppet edits has been from user:GiorgioOrsini and user:NovaNova). After puppets has been blocked we are having IP edits from suspected user:Velebit puppets IP 4.249.x.xxx. It is possible to see that this IP edits are connected because user:4.249.9.200 is deleting suspected puppet of Velebit tag from talk page of user:4.249.0.135 . We are having this IP edits in article Neo-Nazism between 28 July and 26 October 2007. With creation of accounts User:Smerdyakoff and user:Standshown in late October and early November all edits from user:4.249.x.xxx have stoped. --Rjecina (talk) 06:03, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have forget 1 thing. User:Standshown has writen yesterday:"The difference between regime and state is fully elaborated by me and by Smerdyakoff" and then he has given link for place on talk page where only user:Standshown has made edits ??? --Rjecina (talk) 06:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has many editors. Sometimes they agree with each other. That by itself does not indicate sock puppetry. If you wish to pursue this, the correct process is to open a report at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets. However, you will need stronger evidence than this, and there should be recent evidence of wrongdoing. We cannot act on old edits. Jehochman 14:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Users Smerdyakoff and Stagalj have supported one another in RFC so this possible new wrongdoing, but I am more interested if there is way to check new accounts to see if this "new" editor is new puppet of user which has been blocked indefinitely (in this case user:Velebit aka user:Purger aka... ). This blocked user has edited articles:Neo-nazism, Ante Starčević, Ustaše, Neo-Nazism in Croatia, Independent State of Croatia, Nedić Serbia. I am sure that you will not be suprised if I tell you that this trinity Standshown/Stagalj/Smerdyakoff is editing only that articles (or articles connected with that). Because last edits of now blocked puppet (User:Guivon) of user:Purger has been in September 2007 can you please tell if wikipedia is still having his data--Rjecina (talk) 20:15, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Right venue?

Where is the right venue for this comment? ScienceApologist (talk)

Strongly object

to one particular admin listed at Talk:Homeopathy/Article probation as uninvolved

I strongly object to Jossi (talk · contribs) adding himself as an "uninvolved admin" when he has made controversial edits on Thuja, Strychnine tree and Dana Ullman all within the last month. ScienceApologist (talk) 04:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; he's very much involved. Jim62sch 14:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: 114 (22.8%) of his last 500 edits are on "homeopathy" articles - at least as I define them, no one else seems willing to define them. Jim62sch 14:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Take it up with him directly, I think. That is the first step. The list serves a good purpose if it helps identify and resolve these issues before they turn into larger disputes. Jehochman 14:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I do not see the reason to remove myself from the list. See my comment here: Misplaced Pages:RFARB#Statement_by_recently-involved_User:Jossi. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The "strong objection" from SA, is simply because I have been one administrator that has attempted to curtail the obnoxious edit-warring by him and his opponents. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Note that Jossi has NEVER attempted to curtain obnoxious edit-warring on the part of "my opponents", going so far as to revert my removal of their controversial edits. He clearly has positioned himself firmly on one side of this dispute despite his protestations otherwise. Every last one of his edits in the last months to homeopathy-related pages have been to accommodate POV-pushers of homeopathy. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe editors who are opposed to mentions of homeopathy in various articles believe that you are insufficiently neutral. I believe they hold this belief because you did not see any reason to take action when this edit was pointed out to you, that you saw no reason to take action when this edit summary was pointed out to you. In fact, you have not, to my knowledge, criticized or reacted negatively to a single action taken by a general proponent of mentions of homeopathy. If I am incorrect, please provide a diff. Thanks. PouponOnToast (talk) 17:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, I think you should recuse yourself from enforcing the probation; a number of experienced users clearly feel that you're involved, and any enforcement measure that you take will probably cause more drama than it solves. Please note that I'm an administrator, but will not enforce the probation because I've made some comments at Talk:Homeopathy and Talk:Deadly nightshade. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

No offense, Jossi, but I support you stepping back as well. Other more neutral people can take care of this, and consensus appears to support removing you from the list anyway. Lawrence § t/e 17:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I stand by my comment above, and will remain on that list. I do not take sides, as I have no dog in this dispute. See for example this warning. See also my last 500 edits here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're welcome to stay on it, but since everything on Misplaced Pages is subject to community decisions, I think everyone could just take you off. Lawrence § t/e 17:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course, I will be happy to stand the scrutinity of the community on my actions. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a thousand administrators. Why try to stay on a mediation board when one side refuses to accept your neutrality? Relata refero (talk) 20:12, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

So how can we deal with this, Jehochman? I see this as a real problem. If involved administrators refuse to recuse themselves, what are we to do? ScienceApologist (talk) 18:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not "involved" in this dispute. Period. Stop the forum shopping. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

And as an editor that is as involved as you are, you should not touch the probation page at all. You are exhibiting the behavior that this probation is all about! ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Really? Why? I see no indication that anyone should be banned from editing that Misplaced Pages page. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Probation? SPA!

Dana4 (talk · contribs) PouponOnToast (talk) 17:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Less reaction causes less trolling. I suggest you smile at them. If smiles are undeserved, this will be proven soon enough. Jehochman 17:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Why, I did! Look at my welcome message. So templated and nice, and I even gave them a way to explain how they were already able to do single-

That sounds perfect! It may be somebody else with a similar name. Jehochman 17:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

ANI report

Please be aware that you have been mentioned in a complaint about ScienceApologist on ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#ScienceApologist. Vassyana (talk) 17:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Jossi is reverting my notation that the above complainant has been notified about article probation from the probation page. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please refrain from adding people to the probation page that have never edited any of the articles in probation. You are being disruptive. Consider this as a last warning. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I contest your statement that adding editors complaining about Homeopathy as a proxy for other editors to the list of editors notified of probation is disruptive. I will continue to do so, and the only way you will be able to stop me is with an indefinite block, or admin-only protection on the notification page. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That is an excellent idea. Thanks for sharing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi, PouponOnToast. I suggest you retract the ultimatum. That sort of thing is patently unhelpful. Article probation is designed precisely to help remove those who are inflexible. Please do not continue to demonstrate the need to apply this remedy to yourself. Thanks. Jehochman 19:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

You are asking me to state that I will stop notifing editors who are complaining about Homeopathy via proxy? I will not do so, and I will not stop adding to the list in the absence of block or protection. I will, however, pledge to L1rr (lifetime 1rr) with repsect to individual notifications - I will not knowingly revert any intentional removal of my notifications or listing of said users, with the caveat that the user-talk-page-archive of the notification will serve as good and sufficient notification for purposes of sanction. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Personal attacks:

I take the statement that I need to "develop better collaboration skills," as a personal attack. Please comment on the edits, not the editor. Thanks. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:42, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not a personal attack. You need to develop better collaboration skills. See WP:SPADE. People who troll can be called trolls. People who edit war can be called edit warriors. People who push POV can be called POV pushers. You're behaving like a troublemaker, and very soon you will be treated like one if things don't change. Jehochman 19:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please lesson to J, he is an excelent mentor and knows his stuff very well. Just tone it down a bit and go about your business. Igor Berger (talk) 19:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting essay I find the first version of it to be enlightening, and your quote is a lot like the kind of thing I might write. Of course, we're not allowed to call pov-pushers pov-pushers - I've taught SA that by now, I hope. I'm behaving like a user who is being constantly told by others that they are treated unfairly by the system, who alledged that they needed to work the system, and that by being unflappingly civil they could get whatever they wanted. All else aside, I have been unfailingly civil - which was the consistant concern about the editors who are being hustled out the door. It appears, however, that I was wrong about the wor the system thing.

To my colaboration skills? Mine are excellent. You appear to have confused my "willingness to be run over by a bus" skills with my colaboration skills. Review the "stickiness" of my edits to the random disputed pages that you see me working on - they stick, whilst the others edit war around me. It's OK that you've confused "collaboration" with "getting run over by others" - because that's how "collaboration" has worked in the past for pro-science editors. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

(EC) As a note to Igorberger - I'm not looking for a "mentor." If I wanted to be an admin I'd just go edit DYK and revert some vandalism, then go unblock users that I agree with like some other admins do. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

WP:TEA. Take a break. When you come back, be less combative, and everything will be fine. Please, please, please take this advice. Thank you. Jehochman 19:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll take your advise under advisement. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no deadline. Any mayhem that is done can be reverted later. If you give your opponents free reign, they may swiftly prove the need for themselves to be banned. Jehochman 19:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

If you believe your above statement, I will not have to link this anywhere but here. PouponOnToast (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

They seem to have stopped reverting on Jan 30. That's a positive. If that ugly editing pattern resumes, let me know. Jehochman 20:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

PouponOnToast: What is your point? Anthon01 (talk) 20:16, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

PoT, do you think with my record I will ever be an admin..:) But I have 99% admins respect my calls, so which is better? Igor Berger (talk) 20:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The advice about being less combative is sound. I notice that it was hinted that Fill was synthesising an interpretation, but the article being summarised indicates that no significant differences were found, presumably between homeopathic medication and placebo. Filll's statement seems to be a good faith summary of that point, and if you agree, it would be helpful if you could let him know that no accusation of wrongdoing was intended. Thanks, .. dave souza, talk 23:07, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Alas, I was beaten to it: I was going to mention the goose and gander proverb/aphorism/saw/saying. No need to now. Jim62sch 23:23, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

My next essay WP:FLAME

Lots of notability..:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Igorberger (talk • contribs) 22:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Please keep an eye

I am throwing the towel on Homeopathy. See my comment. I came to the Homepathy article with no POV to push, and with good intentions to help with the content disputes. If all it takes to be called "involved" is that, so be it. All I got back was pure vitriol, from editors of both side of the dispute. The probation page has becoming a joke, with disruptive editors adding and removing names at will. I had more than enough. You better keep an eye. Good luck. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I am not going to let editors get away with this type of behavior. Back on my watchlist. Bullying and baiting will not prevail in my watch. I will continue monitoring these articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Y'know what, Jossi, I'm beginning to have some doubts along the same lines as those raised by numerous editors above: I'm not so sure you have the appropriate skills to police a page such as homeopathy. You see, my good man, I was defending you -- I'd never seen you leave a page because it became too contentious, and the fact that you did so shows just how f'd up the page is. In other words, my post was dripping with sarcasm, and with my own displeasure for the page. I should have thought that the "THWACK" would have given the sarcasm away. I guess not. In any case, how you leapt then to "bullying and baiting" is beyond me.

BTW: I don't know if anyone was challenging your motives, but the fact that you've been editing the articles for a couple of weeks (i.e., before the article probation) does seem to make you involved.

Alas, WP is certainly becoming a surreal little world. Jim62sch 10:14, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Sarcasm, does not work, my friend. And that comment was totally unnecessary, it was inflammatory and helped no one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 10:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Whatever re sarcasam.

BTW, re the comments of yours that were removed from the page as disruptive: do you think those comments helped any one? You violated WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL, insulted a slew of editors, and damaged your own credibility (not to mention the image of admins), but I suppose that's OK, right? Surreal. Jim62sch 11:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I did not violate anything. You, on the other hand, did. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Are these not your words, "This is exactly the kind of stuff that disruptive editors with the help of clueless others manage to do: Any admin that comes to assist in a content dispute, becomes the target of one or the other side, gets added to probation warnings and other stupidities" and "Have fun with your endless and mindless dispute"? Perhaps your account was hacked? Well, probably not, given your defense of them.

Perhaps it's a language issue: my sarcasm was obvious to any native speaker of English, and your comments were clearly seen by native English speakers as disruptive at best , . Maybe in Spanish your words are not uncivil, although I doubt that as I read Spanish fluently

(La Casa de los Espiritus being one of my favorites and an excellent example of how sarcasm works very well in Spanish). Whatever the case, there is clearly a failure to communicate here. Jim62sch 21:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy and Wikiproject neutrality

From what I gather, it looks like that Wikiproject doesn't like to get involved when there are conflicts raging (which kind of makes me wonder when they do get involved, but whatever). Sarcasticidealist (talk) 23:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Consensus

A question was asked and a consensus is building, allow wikipedia to work the way it was meant to work a group effort, not one Administrator deciding for everyone, wikipedia is not a dictatorship. Chessy999 (talk) 14:58, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

You cannot change policy with a small group at WP:RSN. Misplaced Pages and Wiktionary are not considered to be reliable sources. You're being disruptive. I recommend you take a break, relax and think about this. Jehochman 15:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I am so relaxed I might fall asleep -:) Chessy999 (talk) 16:59, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

When you wake up, happy editing! Jehochman 17:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Supercomplixcated code

What's the supercomplixcated code for 80% font size? El_C 17:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Code such as <span style="font-size:0.8em">smaller text</span> should produce smaller text. "Em"s are relative to the size of the parent element, so 0.8em is 80% the size of the parent element. Jehochman 19:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Demonstration of relative sizing: smaller text

This also a good way to make text bigger. Jehochman 19:56, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Enforcement

Why is this remark considered an appropriate and constructive contribution? I must say, I'm concerned about lack of even-handedness in enforcement of the article probation. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Patience. All the abusers will be banned soon enough. By moving slowly we can ensure that the bans stick. Jehochman 21:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Socks for User:CompScientist

Looks like CompScientist is evading the one month block that you issued with a sock account: User:Wikipeadian. This user has been making identical edits to Nissan GT-R and Vietnam War. If there is another way I should address this please let me know. Thanks. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 21:21, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/CompScientist. Patience, they, their sock puppets, and their IP address will be blocked. Jehochman 21:43, 2 February 2008 (UTC)