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*'''Comment''': These are ineligible for Speedy deletion because ] cannot be applied to user subpages harboring recreated articles; thus the speedy deletion was overturned in the last DRV on that technicality and brought here. I do not know if this is possible or requires some ArbCom statement, but I would suggest, if this MfD results in the deletion of the pages in question, that going forward '''G4 be allowed to apply to such pages''' falling under '''this topic only''', as an exception. I am not saying these pages cannot be recreated as an article (which would still be eligible for AfD), but only that they should not be recreated under the auspices of a user subpage, thus making a mockery of the XfD process. --''']]''' 18:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC) *'''Comment''': These are ineligible for Speedy deletion because ] cannot be applied to user subpages harboring recreated articles; thus the speedy deletion was overturned in the last DRV on that technicality and brought here. I do not know if this is possible or requires some ArbCom statement, but I would suggest, if this MfD results in the deletion of the pages in question, that going forward '''G4 be allowed to apply to such pages''' falling under '''this topic only''', as an exception. I am not saying these pages cannot be recreated as an article (which would still be eligible for AfD), but only that they should not be recreated under the auspices of a user subpage, thus making a mockery of the XfD process. --''']]''' 18:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
*'''Delete'''. Enough is enough. This is a blatant end-run around AfD and needs to be shut down. ] (]) 19:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC) *'''Delete'''. Enough is enough. This is a blatant end-run around AfD and needs to be shut down. ] (]) 19:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
:: I don't think a legalistic interpretation of ] is helpful; it is possible for any user, with a bit of imagination, to evade G4 more or less indefinitely and thus abuse Misplaced Pages as a soapbox or free web host, but in the end if a subject is unencyclopaedic there's not much point wasting time on it in userspace. This subject was decided after much debate to be inappropriate, there being other articles which adequately cover the subject. It's not possible, as far as I can see, to fix the problem that got the article deleted, in a way that a userspace version would be amenable to moving back to mainspace. And that is the sole permissible purpose of userspace forks like this. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 19:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

*'''Phenomenally Strong Keep''' -- Not that it will do any good, as ]s seem immune to logic. A mob, as Franklin said, has many heads, but no brain. *'''Phenomenally Strong Keep''' -- Not that it will do any good, as ]s seem immune to logic. A mob, as Franklin said, has many heads, but no brain.
**I'm particularly disappointed at those here who are materially misrepresenting previous discussions and materially misrepresenting these userspace workpages as recreations of a deleted article, even though they either existed before the deletion or were copied from those that did. **I'm particularly disappointed at those here who are materially misrepresenting previous discussions and materially misrepresenting these userspace workpages as recreations of a deleted article, even though they either existed before the deletion or were copied from those that did.

Revision as of 19:12, 5 February 2008

User:Tlatosmd/Adult-child sex

An attempt to rescue an article that was deleted not because of the content but because the title - the term itself - is unacceptably POV. The term appears to be used only by pro-pedophile activists, and the content is already discussed in several existing articles under less problematic titles. Guy (Help!) 22:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Relevant links:
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adult-child sex (Oct. '07)
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Adult-child sex (2nd nomination) (Jan. '08)
Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review/Adult-child_sex (Jan. '08)
Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2008 January 28 #User:Tlatosmd/Adult-child sex (closed) (Feb. '08) --12 Noon  00:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Additional relevant link: Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:VigilancePrime/ACS --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 17:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Addendum:
--Calton | Talk 01:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for diligently pointing out all the pages that are similar in purpose to the one that is being discussed within this MfD. However, why were all these other drafts deleted without any warning or discussion, especially if they're seen as comparable to the draft currently under discussion? I would like to courteously request that they be restored, at least until proper Misplaced Pages proceedings can be followed to determine if they should stay within or be deleted from the project's userspace. ~ Homologeo (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
If it would make things easier for the community, I have nothing against discussing and voting on all these drafts at once. But, before this can happen, all pages should be restored for the time being, involved editors notified of what's happening here, and proceedings either started anew or prolonged so that users previously unaware of this MfD, but who are directly involved with the creation or editing of the drafts, have a fair amount of time to cast their votes and respond to concerns raised. ~ Homologeo (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep. Let's see:
  1. An attempt to rescue : this work page was there long before the mainspace one was nominated for deletion, so it certainly can't be a wrongful re-creation attempt. Moreover, if the mainspace article really was a content fork, as was claimed repeatedly during the AfD, then then work that went into this draft may benefit other, existing articles. Deleting this piece of work seems to go against the DRV closing admin's call for editors to contribute their efforts to existing articles.
  2. The was deleted because...: it is not completely clear why the mainspace article was deleted, but "title is POV" is not reason I remember being mentioned often. Anyway, if the title, not the content, is somehow inappropriate, then there may be a case for moving the article, certainly not deleting it.
  3. Title is unacceptably POV: I just don't understand the moral panic over this. "Adult-child sex" is not a viewpoint, it's not the statement of an opinion, it's the objective description of a kind of human interaction; one that is strongly frowned upon in most contemporary Western societies, obviously, but that shouldn't prevent us from describing it in a dispassionate manner. We have an article on Female genital cutting, not Barbaric mutilation of women by senseless fanatics, and as much as I may agree with that latter characterization, I'm quite happy the current title.
  4. Term is used only by pro-pedophile activists: not only is this patently wrong (as a Google search will show in a matter of seconds), it also seems to be a thinly-veiled attack on your fellow editors.
  5. Content is already discussed in several existing articles: again, this only suggests that the work that went into this well-referenced draft page could benefit those existing articles.
Hopefully this MfD doesn't turn into more bitter wiki-drama. Bikasuishin (talk) 23:16, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Subpage cannot be used to harbor a deleted article. A subpage can be used to draft a new article, but for only so long, and then it must be moved to mainspace. Since this article title is protected from recreation , it cannot be posted in mainspace. Since it cannot be harbored on a user subpage, it has to go somewhere, and that somewhere is nowhere - deletion city. If the user wants to preserve it, save it to some other site or to a Word document. On a sidebar, Bikasuishin's arguments seem circular, extremely off-topic and, as it is, moot. --12 Noon  00:48, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per Guy and 12 Noon. As a side note, the user page version was created in Nov. '07 after the first Afd in Oct. '07, not "long before the mainspace one was nominated for deletion". -- Donald Albury 01:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Its material that covers a topic in a manner that has been rejected for inclusion. Its been salted. Therefore it cannot be foreseeable that at the present time it will be an encyclopedic topic. So it can't be a work inprogress if it can't become an article. And the other stuff the stuff 12 Noon said. MBisanz 02:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - From reading through the discussion at the relevant AfD, it seems that the reason for the deletion was not because the title was non-neutral but because the content constituted a POV fork. Regardless of title--as an aside, salting of this particular title in mainspace does not prevent the article from being created under a different name--the community has spoken and rejected the content of this article. Barring a complete rewrite, any creation in mainspace would thus result in a G4 deletion, which means that this page is not viable as a potential mainspace article and should thus be deleted per WP:UP. --jonny-mt 02:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete Same animal as the POV fork that was deleted before. NPOV is needed in the userspace too, we are not a web host. (1 == 2) 05:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep - per Bikasuishin. To others, deleted pages are userfied all the time. The term itself has been used in mainstream news such as Washington Post and USA Today. The POV fork assertion was never solidified and only argued after the initial arguments were easily refuted. Userspace is generally free for any purpose so long as it does not harbor a personal attack and this page is clearly an encyclopedic-based effort. The content is only in part covered in other articles as the original (with finding of keep) AfD noted about the original article. The original article was deleted in accordance with WP:STEAM, in case nobody had noticed. The article in the userspace is a complete rewrite (and one of a few different versions available under different userspaces). There is no real reason to delete this userpage and there is plenty of reason to leave it be, if for no other reason, per WP:EM. What's the big threat to "you all" (those pressing so hard to delete with great prejudice) from userspace drafts and userfied information? There still has not been put forth a solid, policy-based reason to delete. Can anyone provide one? VigilancePrime (talk) 05:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
    • There is no threat per se (incidentally, I believe the grammatically correct term is "y'all" :P), but the fact is that the merits of this article should be--and have been--discussed at the appropriate venues, specifically WP:AFD and WP:DRV. Simply put, MfD is not a last-last chance to save deleted content; the discussion here should center around whether or not the userfied article adheres to WP:UP and related policies and guidelines, not rehash the arguments put forth in favor of and against the original deletion. This, in turn, is the starting point for the rational, policy-based arguments for deletion presented above. --jonny-mt 06:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - I don't see anything wrong with keeping it in userspace for now, and considering the deep edit history behind the article, it could prove useful. Userspace pages aren't held to the same standards as mainspace articles, and the case for deleting the article for mainspace I think was rather tenuous in the first place (as per Bikasuishin's points). — xDanielx /C\ 06:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong keep. This is by no means the article of the same title that was deleted under similarly illegitimate circumstances. See for a more detailed account of the relating scandalous crusade against several admins and for the particular reasons why the widely controversial, basically illegitimate decision (being illegitimate due to illegitimate AfD as directly defined by Misplaced Pages policy that each new AfD needs new nomination rationale, as one of many other reasons) on the main article would not even be applicable even IF the userpage would be identical (which it's definitely not!) and even IF the mainspace decision would be legitimate and entirely uncontroversial (which it's definitely not either), my post on the DRV for Adult-child sex here. True, the userpage was put up after the first AfD, however that AfD closed with a strong keep from closing admin due to consensus and affirmed by another admin in DRV, and it was before the next bludgeoning of process by another, identical nomination rationale AfD with same voting statistics and even more arguments for keep was opened just a few weeks later. It would be great if MBisanz wouldn't stubbornly and untruthfully call content "(metaphorically) salted and deemed unencyclopedic" if 130 people, established editors and admins alike, adamantly wanted (and want) it to stay. I see though that Adult-child sex has now even be self-righteously protected which I regard pretty offensive to the established 10 dozen members of Misplaced Pages vehemently disagreeing with these illegitimate decisions violating any known consensus policy and guideline on Misplaced Pages as well as all decisions made in all precedence polls, AfDs, and admin decisions based upon the same (or even worse) conditions and rationales; at the very least it's arrogant ignorance towards their sophisticated, abundant reasonings and official, verbosely well-substantiated admin decisions (where the other party was found entirely incapable of even just debating or refuting anything as SSB pointed out at the provided link, all we got every single frickin' time were colorful one-liner no-brainers and personal, unsubstantiated, and unreferenced opinions), or this protection resembles pretty much the name-calling these 10 dozen established members "Pro-pedophile activists" all over again. Any alleged "POV" and "POV fork" issues are just as moot points for userspace as hammered out in detail at link. --TlatoSMD (talk) 08:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Yeah, deleted pages are userfied all the time -- but that's only if there's some potential for saving them in the first place. Certainly user pages are NOT a semi-permanent home for the not-ready-for-primetime, nor even a temporary refuge for that which shouldn't be hanging around in the first place. That's not even touching the title, whose very existence makes this a no-go. The overheated conspiracy-theory stuff just above certainly helps make this an easy decision. --Calton | Talk 13:28, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete the term is and always will be a POV fork. Viridae 13:42, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I am getting tired of this whole stupid POINT. "The term appears to be used only by pro-pedophile activists" is an indication of IDONTLIKEIT. There are a huge number of reliable sources cited the use of this term that can be seen in this deleted talk page. Strong keep per my rationales last time and per DGG's comment in the DRV discussion "there was no consensus that this material could not be turned into an article, just a rather disputed consensus that the present article was was not acceptable. This should be allowed to remain a reasonable time so it can be worked on". @pple complain 13:47, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
You need to read WP:POINT and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This topic has already been deleted, and if anyone is disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, which is unlikely, it would probably be those who are so insistent on trying to "rescue" an article under a title which is POV on a topic which is already cvered in numerous other articles (all of which are also subject to occasional problems of similar POV-pushing). Guy (Help!) 14:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment. There was not even a consensus in favor of the unsubstantiated opinion that the term ACS itself would be inherently POV instead of CSA, so it would be great if you'd stop insisting there was. As SSB pointed out, the most sophisticated reply to requests as to give reasonings why the term ACS could be considered POV was screaming "PEDOPHILE!!!!!" at everything that walked. There were plenty of academic sources (at a three-digit amount!) and sophisticated rationales brought up as to why the term CSA ought to be considered POV, and all those colorful, no-brain one-liners saying otherwise were verbosely and profoundly debunked again and again and again and again. The question ought rather be, why save the existing CSA main space article rather than to attack this private userpage, so apply there. Experienced admins such as User:John, User:Grue, User:DGG, User:Tango, User:Coren, User:@pple, and others, called the closing admin Keilana's entire ability to proper judgment and fulfill her duties as an admin into question for her unwarranted personal decision to delete the mainspace article for which she was even incapable to provide any rationale for. Please call them all pedophiles as well so we can have you perma-banned as quick as possible. The whole AfD where that decision was made about the mainspace article ACS was illegitimate to begin with, and it's even more wrong to apply in a self-righteous crusading fashion that illegitimate, arbitrary decision upon a private userpage not resembling the mainspace article. It's fascinating to watch this numinous, irrational, pre-scientific panic to burn anything at the stake that which does not fit one's pathetic ethnocentric values. --TlatoSMD (talk) 15:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Please Tlato, let's keep a cool head over this. I'm no more pleased than you are to see a number of perfectly reasonable editors side with the witch-hunters when it comes to these touchy issues, and I understand why accusations of POV-pushing directed at your hard, deeply-researched work would upset you, but even if you feel personally offended by some remarks here, retorting will only antagonize people further. Also, while I don't think you were serious regarding the current CSA article (which covers a topic whose notability is obvious, if only because of its use as a legal qualification), comments like these are unlikely to help either. The mainspace ACS article was deleted, and the deletion was endorsed at DRV. It doesn't mean that it cannot be recreated at a later date, as consensus changes (I'm not sure what the rationale was for salting it either, by the way), but let's focus for now on this particular deletion discussion. Bikasuishin (talk) 16:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Believe me, I'd love to limit this to my private userpage, but obviously other people can't stop pointing to Keilana's personal decision in order to excuse harassingly, disruptively, and in violation with a number of established Misplaced Pages policies messing with my private userspace that has few if any to do with what Keilana made her controversial decision on. As for the RFD, Mackensen simply parroted vague, unsubstantiated opinions where no consensus whatsoever existed over. And this is just the short version. What I meant to say about the existing CSA article is that the most obvious decision in response to "POV fork" accusations would have been to incorporate CSA into an ACS article of a length ten or a hundred times as large as the existing CSA article wouldn't it be for overall length. --TlatoSMD (talk) 16:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. See what I mean Bikasuishin? No arguments, no reasoning, no refutations, and blatant, patent lies in contrast to any established consensus, referring to Keilana's arbitrary, invalid, controversial decision. --TlatoSMD (talk) 01:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I'm going to take issue with this. First of all, the term itself is inherently biased. There's nothing we can do about that, save not having an article on it. Second, I concur that my decision was quite controversial, but it was not invalid, especially considering the fact that it was endorsed by a highly respected admin at DRV. Keilana| 01:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
How exactly is "adult-child sex" inherently biased? A title which presumes a mainstream view is centrist; a title which presumes no view at all is neutral. "Adult-child sex" is purely descriptive, not normative. Descriptive language that deals with facts can of course be partial, but "adult-child sex" has no factual implications -- or non-factual ones, for that matter. I'm really failing to see how lack of predisposition in any direction can make a term biased. — xDanielx /C\ 06:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The term is biased because the more usual term for this is pedophilia or perhaps pederasty, and we have articles on both, neother of which goes to such lengths to pretend that the practice is anything other than abhorrent in the eyes of the peoples of modern democracies. Guy (Help!) 09:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
You seem to be confused. Neither pedophilia nor pederasty are usual terms to refer to adult-child sex. The former is an attraction, and according to psychatrists, a paraphilia, not a "practice". The latter is no longer in common use, I believe. It refers to a particular type of adult-adolescent male homosexual intercourse, and thus has little to do with adult-child sex, depending on one's definition for a child. I find it a bit regrettable that people who seem to feel strongly about those issues and go around spouting "POV-fork" allegations here and there should be unclear about such basic terminology. Bikasuishin (talk) 10:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Well put, Bikasuishin. I agree with your point completely. ~ Homologeo (talk) 10:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per all the previous discussions on this user subpage. If an AFD discussion ended with a delete result, then this page should not be preserved in userspace indefinitely; that is in effect subverting the deletion discussion and its consensus. Aside from the title being non-neutral, consensus was that the content constituted a blatant POV fork, and it should be deleted as one as it was before. Keeping this around could bring the project as a whole into disrepute. Other articles on related issues exist and there is no reason to keep this around; there is no way it could possibly be improved to be acceptable. --Coredesat 06:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. User space version of a POV-fork page that was deleted per policy and consensus. As long as the page exists, it will be a magnet for conflict and disruption, as it has been continually since it was first created. There's no benefit to a page that the community has soundly rejected with extensive and repeated discussions. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 08:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Keep It's in userspace. What's the problem? And you said The term appears to be used only by pro-pedophile activists in one swooping breath of POV after accusing the user of POV. - ✰ALLSTAR✰ 09:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
    • The problem is that the mainspace article this was userfied from is a protected title - consensus is that this article is not acceptable in mainspace. There was a strong AFD consensus to delete the original article, and as a result if it's not going to be improved (it can't be improved), it must be deleted; deleted articles can't be kept in mainspace forever. --Coredesat 09:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes. You can fix lack of notability, you can't fix an inappropriate subject. That is the problem here: rewriting can't fix the problem for whihc it was deleted, as the problem was the title as well as the content. We already have articles on the subject, just under titles that some people don't like. Guy (Help!) 09:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Now, now, I doubt the closing admins would claim that there ever was a strong consensus in any of the discussions regarding the now deleted mainspace article. I can respect Keilana's decision to close as delete, which she later explained by such rules as WP:IAR, but she acknowledges herself that it was far from uncontroversial. Bikasuishin (talk) 10:37, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Keep - No harm in having a draft such as this within userspace, especially considering that a good number of Wikipedians participating in both the AfD and the ensuing deletion review saw a point in keeping the "Adult-child sex" article. Besides, this draft is not a copy of the deleted article, but rather a separate work that attempts to discuss the topic in question according to Misplaced Pages standards, and presents information that can and should be incorporated into articles on similar or related topics in the future. Lastly, this draft is a work-in-progress that could potentially serve to show what a Misplaced Pages article on ACS should look like. ~ Homologeo (talk) 09:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. It was agreed by a strong community consensus, despite some vigorous appeals, that this content was fundamentally both unsuitable and unnecessary. There is no point in having it in userspace, as it will never be encyclopedia-worthy. Neıl ☎ 10:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • So, is it appropriate to assume that you can foresee the future? I don't think any of us can predict Misplaced Pages consensus for times to come. Besides, if an article is legitimately improved, and maybe even the name of it changed (seeing as some editors really disapprove of the title "Adult-child sex"), there's no reason to assume that "it will never be encyclopedia-worthy." ~ Homologeo (talk) 10:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • You mean changing the name of the article to Pederasty, the correct, scientific name? We already have an article on that. That's the whole point. This article was/is/always will be a POV fork of that topic, with a benevolent slant upon it towards adults having sex with children. We don't have multiple articles on the exact same topic. Neıl ☎ 10:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Please read the article you personally wikified above, and you'll see that pederasty is a much narrower topic that adult-child sex. Thus, not sure how the latter can ever be considered a POV fork of the former, when the opposite is much more likely to be true. ~ Homologeo (talk) 11:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Once again, please familiarize yourself with the article that you're referring to. As can easily be seen from the article on ephebophilia, adult-child sex cannot be considered a POV fork of this topic because the former only deals with an attraction, mental disorder, or paraphilia, and not sexual behavior. Furthermore, ACS covers a much broader topic than even the sexual activities that some ephebophiles would want to engage in, seeing as they're exclusively or primarily interested in adolescents, and not all children. ~ Homologeo (talk) 16:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Users are allowed to recreate deleted articles in their user space in order to try to prove that they can be acceptable for article space. That does not apply here, because the deletion debates have concluded that the title and/or subject are not appropriate. There is no reason to preserve this article in user space. Sam Blacketer (talk) 12:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete - if some folks want to develop an article for future consideration somewhere down the road (far, far down the road, from the way the consensus - remember that thing that WIkipedia's built on? - has gone thus far), then someone save the content off-Wiki and work on it there until such time as it's acceptable for inclusion here. It's been bluntly decided numerous times that this is a POV fork, so it's really inappropriate to have it hanging around like this. Tony Fox (arf!) 16:56, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
AFD, deletion review, top of the page, you know, that stuff. Plus thousands of innocent bytes slaughtered on various noticeboards. Take it off-wiki, for crying out loud, work on it there, and in the future seek a DRV again to gauge consensus for this particular material. The continuing battle over this is, quite honestly, ridiculous. Tony Fox (arf!) 17:19, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe this needs to be repeated again - please look at the drafts prior to making false allegations. A good portion of the text within the drafts was not present within the deleted article, and thus is unique to these userspace pages. Simply reverberating that this is "recreation of deleted material" will not make your wrongful presumption more true. If some editors are not happy with these pages being within userspace, they're free to go through proper channels to address their concerns. Speedying is definitely inappropriate in a situation like this. Up to this point, it's individuals such as yourself who have insisted on violating Misplaced Pages policy, and not editors diligently at work to create a quality article, albeit on a controversial topic. ~ Homologeo (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This MfD is unnecessary, the articles were correctly speedy deleted as recreations of material the community decided to delete in other discussions. These include the original AfD, and the previous MfD. Addhoc (talk) 17:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Where's the previous MfD? --PeaceNT (talk) 17:14, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, the previous MfD was cut short because the creator requested deletion. Regardless, this has been discussed enough times already. Addhoc (talk) 17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The user dropped his campaign to keep the page only because it was clear it would result in deletion, next in line of several similar AfD/MfD/DRV combinations that all resulted in deletions.... It was clearly not because he decided he didn't want the page. He re-created that page later and as of now there are two separate instances of that user's ACS page, both included in the list of related pages that Calton added in the addendum to the nomination. --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 18:00, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
"This has been discussed enough times already" - userspace drafts that are separate and different from the deleted ACS article, really? Please show us where. ~ Homologeo (talk) 17:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete all: The practice of "userfying" an article after its deletion has a narrow scope. It is generally allowed for situations where an article is deleted as crystal ballery or lacking sources to indicate notability or other such situatiosn where a future version of the article may, infact, be appropriate for Misplaced Pages, even if the current one is not. On the other hand, this article has NO place at Misplaced Pages in ANY version. Misplaced Pages has articles on Pedophilia and Pederasty and does NOT need a third article on this subject. The preservation of this already deleted article does NOT serve any function for the future growth of the encyclopedia, and instead only serves as an "end-around" against a pretty clear consensus to delete the original article. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete all. These user pages do not have a legitimate purpose, the title having been properly deleted via AfD. There's been plenty of time to copy any special sources that the users want for future reference. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment: These are ineligible for Speedy deletion because G4 cannot be applied to user subpages harboring recreated articles; thus the speedy deletion was overturned in the last DRV on that technicality and brought here. I do not know if this is possible or requires some ArbCom statement, but I would suggest, if this MfD results in the deletion of the pages in question, that going forward G4 be allowed to apply to such pages falling under this topic only, as an exception. I am not saying these pages cannot be recreated as an article (which would still be eligible for AfD), but only that they should not be recreated under the auspices of a user subpage, thus making a mockery of the XfD process. --12 Noon  18:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Enough is enough. This is a blatant end-run around AfD and needs to be shut down. Ronnotel (talk) 19:01, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think a legalistic interpretation of WP:CSD#G4 is helpful; it is possible for any user, with a bit of imagination, to evade G4 more or less indefinitely and thus abuse Misplaced Pages as a soapbox or free web host, but in the end if a subject is unencyclopaedic there's not much point wasting time on it in userspace. This subject was decided after much debate to be inappropriate, there being other articles which adequately cover the subject. It's not possible, as far as I can see, to fix the problem that got the article deleted, in a way that a userspace version would be amenable to moving back to mainspace. And that is the sole permissible purpose of userspace forks like this. Guy (Help!) 19:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Phenomenally Strong Keep -- Not that it will do any good, as moral panics seem immune to logic. A mob, as Franklin said, has many heads, but no brain.
    • I'm particularly disappointed at those here who are materially misrepresenting previous discussions and materially misrepresenting these userspace workpages as recreations of a deleted article, even though they either existed before the deletion or were copied from those that did.
    • Most of the "arguments" (using that term reservedly) for deletion were no more than links to WP:POVFORK. If you can't say how or why it's a POV fork, then you're adding noise to the discussion, not signal.
    • A few pot-stirrers have attempted to make this about pedophiles. The article wasn't about pedophilia. The userpages aren't about pedophilia.
    • The existing child sexual abuse article excludes (by definition) any of the subject matter that deals with adult-child sex in times and cultures where the abuse paradigm doesn't exist. If we can't talk about this in terms of biology, sociology, or anthropology, but only as abuse, then we're failing as an encyclopedia.
    • "Ewww! Gross!" is not a rationale for deletion, no matter how the illogical chest-thumping might be prettied up.
    • So, we can either stop pretending that this subject only exists within the frame of reference we want for it, or we can abandon the idea of being an encyclopedia.
    • To deny that anything existed before is to deny reason itself. We're saying: let's not understand this topic; Let's just listen to the high priests and not do any critical thinking. This moral crusade disgusts me beyond belief.
    • No matter how many times I'vve asked, no one has pointed to any evidence to bback up their opinions. Herostratus, Will Beback, Avruch, Sir Fozzie, Guy, Phil Sandifer, Keilana, and anyone else I've missed who bears the flaming sword or righteousness -- do your worst: Hide my words, delete them entirely, cut off discussion, misrepresent facts, destroy anything outside your narrow orthodoxy. Do whatever it takes to defend the wiki against the awful truth: something exists that we all don't like. Misplaced Pages -- the encyclopedia of topics we like. It's shameful. --SSBohio 19:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete every copy of this POV fork. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete per the dozen-plus well-reasoned arguments above. FCYTravis (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)