Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 03:31, 16 July 2005

Archive 1 Archive 2

Note: if you leave a comment here that you want me to reply to, here's where I'll reply to it. (The one exception, whose comments will be deleted unread whether he signs them as himself or as his sockpuppet, knows who he is.) Leave new comments at the bottom.

I reserve the right to refactor this page as I see fit, and if you are planning to post the exact same complaints to my user page and to the talk page of the article you're upset about, don't be surprised when it's deleted from here.

Gundam

I suppose this is what VfD is all about. My vote probably was a bit kneejerky, it's also true Hoary's opinion influenced me. Anyway, in encyclopedic terms, I think it's worth a mention, not an article (hint: I'm not completely close-minded on this, however). Wyss 13:08, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I'd agree (if you notice, my vote on this one, and I think on every Gundam article actually, has been to merge to some more appropriate parent article; I'm starting to think that instead of an inclusionist or a deletionist, I may be a mergist) -- it's worth a mention but not an entire article to itself. But when someone nominates the major antagonist of one of the ground-breaking anime series and says "surely not notable" and someone else chips in and says "super minor fan trivia" -- we have major decisions being made by people who don't know what they're talking about and don't even know that they don't. That worries me. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:41, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

From Danniboy

Mr. Feldspar (isn't that a chemical?)... I'm asking you this time politely not to reverse edits I'm making and call them "spam". I am not spamming. If you will do so again, you're asking for a huge ego fight, and I'm not interested in it. One last time - you have a problem with an edit I'm making, let me know about it and explain yourself. Just remember, I can do the same to you... Thank you.

Of course I have a problem with the edits you're making. Or should I say, the edit you're making, since there is only one and you are making it repeatedly, which is just a link to the nlpweekly.com site, which you have re-inserted into the article four times, under deceptive summaries like Removed spam link to "technotip" - reversed to previous version (with no mention, of course, that you added a link rather than just removing one.) Hmmmm, funny, that's exactly what Special:Contributions/212.179.213.210 did less than twenty-four hours before, claiming (spam link "false memory" removed) when an honest description would have included and also reinserted a frequently removed link. Why exactly is it that you and 212.179.213.210 are entitled to declare things "spam" but a link that has been reinserted to the article fifteen times can't be called "spam"? Sure looks like it to me; looks even more like it after a look at your edits. -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:30, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

with all due respect, I had recently joined Misplaced Pages as a registered user, and most often I forget to log in when I contribute content. I've added content in the NLP page, the Hypnosis page and some other psychology related issues. However, I had the impression that as long as I mark the "remember me" when I log in, I don't have to use it again if I close the browser. Apprently I do, so I'll keep you posted on future edits/contributions I'm making, to show you I'm not a spam maker and I do try to contribute to the community with valuable content. At the beginning, I didn't even know who's deleting my edits, but in the last week I found out how to contact them (at least if they're registered like you and I). I appologize if it looked like spam, it was not my intention at all. Have a great new year eve. ---> Danniboy

Re: What to do about a spammer?

Yeah, I've removed that link more than a few times in the past. At least the link he posted to Anthony Robbins actually points to a relevant article now, and he didn't supplant a pre-existing link, this time. I can't say I care for his threatening tone and deceptive edit summaries, and haven't seen him contribute anything that wasn't self-promotional. The section he added to self-esteem isn't even encyclopaedic, so I think I'll move it to talk. I say we let him keep the Anthony Robbins link, but ditch the link at hypnosis since it's too general a topic: His link is already at neuro-linguistic programming, and that should be enough. Since he has quite a history of self-promotional editing (under dozens of IPs, of course), you shouldn't hesitate to block him (perhaps temporarily at first) if he does not heed your warnings in the future. Cheers, -- Hadal 19:16, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

- My sincere appologies to both of you, Antaeus and Hadal. I did not mean to sound threatning, just frustrated. However, I will look for my content contributions to Misplaced Pages in the last few months and send it to you for review. Again, I appologize, have a great new year. - Danniboy

Request: New Year Resolution

Humbly and kindly I would request from you the following new year resolutions:

1. Stop pre-judging me and others;
2. Stop tiny quabbles, and focus on substance;
3. Be less anal retentive;
4. Be more gracious to others;
5. Help instead of hinder;
6. Be kind.

I promise I would do the same. Happy New Year --Zappaz 01:10, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I would not believe your promises, Zappaz. You've shown me your idea of being "gracious", of being "kind", of "helping"; it's to maintain a different standard for every occasion and preach sanctimoniously whichever one is convenient for you at the time.

I'm not "pre-judging" you, Zappaz. I'm judging you, based on bitter experience with your intellectual dishonesty. There's a difference. You have pre-judged me, leaping to conclusions about who I am, what I must mean when I talk about cults and how it must be generalization and bigotry, what connection I must have with the ex-premies -- how is that "kind"? How is that "gracious"? Case in point: I went out of my way to spell out what I mean by "cult" and that it is not a brush with which I am tarring every new religious movement. What was your oh-so-"gracious" response? To tell me 'Oh, there are 100's of thousands of such new religions, which you call cults, and now you're saying they all have this dangerous structure.' (After that sort of BS you think I'm going to look to you for my New Year's resolutions?)

And hey! You know what would have been "gracious"? If you had either removed this attack on me or not made it in the first place -- instead of striking it out so that everyone can still see your attack on me and it still has exactly the hurtful, harmful effect you intended, but you don't actually take responsibility for it. "Stop pre-judging me and others", indeed. "Help instead of hinder", indeed.

When I want advice on how to run my life, Zappaz, I'll take it from someone I can actually admire or at least respect, someone who comprehends the meaning of the word "integrity". Someone I doubt that someone will ever be you. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:29, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus, regardless of your antagonism, I will still try my best. And now, to party, do the countdown and hope the New Year brings me joy. --Zappaz 02:54, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

More Yatta

I would have responded earlier to your comment found on 'My Talk', but I only now figured out how to.

Your gratitude for me not being a twit reassures me about the Wiki community. I am a moderator for a high-mid-level traffic web board, so I loathe the stubborn n00b as much as you. Sadly, many assume the worst of the new people. (Example: Usenet sci.math has sent me multiple nastygrams.)

I just hope future arguments of mine will fly, or at least land softly. I wasn't sure whether your original response was a sci.math-esque mockery or just helpful criticism. Your warm welcome has shown it merely to be the latter. Thank you.

Have a merry...erm...Valentine's Day? Spamguy 22:46, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

An unforgivably delayed reply (re: rape protection)

Hi; I want apologise for not being around to respond to your query in a timely fashion. For what it's worth, your suggestion was a good one. I hope you've been well (those first few lines atop your user page worry me). Cheers, -- Hadal 03:07, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Copyright clearing

Hello. You edited the zsync article and added a paragraph. I am the author of that article and I have previously published on my site Wikinerds.org (not related to Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia). Your paragraph is now released under the GFDL since you edit on Misplaced Pages. I would like to publish a modified version of your paragraph under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 2.0 license on my site. You will get proper attribution with your full name Antaeus Feldspar. Here and here you can check the original article. If you agree with the CC-licensing of your paragraph, please contact me using my talk page. Thank you. NSK 01:33, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! -- NSK 08:44, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Admins

Heya, good job on the link quality assurance. I'd suggest you avoid phrases like "at least two admins are agreeing with my opinion" though: Admins are just regular editors with a few extra powers to aid in janitorial work, their opinions do not count more than that of other editors. Of course in most cases they are established editors with a good track record, but perhaps you could use something like "established editors" or "long-time editors". --fvw* 03:11, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

True, true. *sigh* It's just that if this guy has already failed to take the clue that if three long-time/established editors are saying this link is not appropriate and it's one anon saying "Sure it is! Misplaced Pages policy says it is!" maybe that anon is not understanding the policy the way he thinks he is. But if he doesn't take a clue from "three people are saying I'm wrong; I'm the only one who thinks I'm right" I don't know if he's going to clue in just from being told that these editors are "experienced." Plus, you not only have to be experienced in order to be an admin, you have to have earned enough trust from the community for the voting on your adminship to pass. So, an admin is not just someone who's been around a while, it's someone who has earned some measure of community trust... -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:32, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I see your point, though the anon definately wouldn't get that whole distinction. And the "person in power" distinction he probably will get is exactly the one we don't want to give, convenient though it may be in this case. --fvw* 03:37, 2005 Jan 19 (UTC)

Deleted material

Removed material duplicated at Talk:Melissa Joan Hart.

Time to ban/block 204.193.6.90?

He is now engaged in personal attacks, asking if "Did he go against an arbritrttion?" . Between this and his violation of the 3RR, it may be time for him to discover that Misplaced Pages does not live by the rule of "do whatever you want and no one can stop you". -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:48, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that counts as a personal attack really; just ignore that kind of stuff. Interestingly enough, he hasn't violated the 3RR yet (though I was fooled into thinking so too), see the discussion on WP:AN. Just revert him where necessary and block when he does violate the 3RR, that should get the message across soon enough. --fvw* 17:55, 2005 Jan 20 (UTC)

Hunh. I guess I misread the timestamps too. I have to disagree about it being a personal attack, though; I have never been the subject of an arbitration, let alone "going against" one, and I find 204.193.6.90's suggestion that I have done both to be a cheesy smear upon me. (and the irony? He's appealing to a user who has recently explicitly violated the rule of "Never suggest a view is invalid simply because of who its proponent is" against me. And this is who 204.193.6.90 is turning to to complain about "cyber-bullying"?) -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:16, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Elias coding

Yes I am moving all three. I am atemptint to be consistent with Misplaced Pages policy on capitalisation. I checked breifly via google to see if there was a prepoderence of capitals usage, adn ther wasn't (although there is some). Rgds, Rich Farmbrough 01:37, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Another link-adder...

I wonder if you'd take a look at 66.234.37.74; he's added external links to five different articles, all links to http://celebritycola.blogspot.com. For obvious reasons, I would rather not be the one this time that raises the issue... -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:13, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What, you're afraid of making yourself too useful? I Didn't find any of the links to be worth having in the articles and have removed the lot of them. The link reorganising to make it look like it's not just the addition of one link is suspicious too. Good catch. --fvw* 02:18, 2005 Jan 23 (UTC)

copyvio

Scoring the Hales copy COPYVIO NOTICE You recently put up a notice about an article I put on Misplaced Pages FYI http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cornwall/ball/alnw.htm Is my webpage and I am transfering all info across to Misplaced Pages

My home page is http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cornwall/ my info on Medieval footbal games is http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cornwall/ball/shroveball.htm

These pages are mine the have been on the web for several years.

Phil Ellery Talskiddy 23:11, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Shape property

Hi, I noticed your addition of the shape property to the binary heap article. This is a common part of the definition of binary heaps, but I think there are some applications, such as link-based priority queues, where it's not strictly needed. The term I've heard for the shape property is a complete binary tree, although the definition on Misplaced Pages seems to be slightly different (perhaps an error). I accept the edit, but perhaps there should be a small note about how the shape property need not always hold in all applications, if you agree. Deco 07:35, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You're right that it should probably be complete binary tree instead of the numerical parent-child relationship I gave. (I see what you mean about the definition seeming slightly off, though...) Perhaps we can combine the two, explaining that the shape property is so valued because combined with 1-based indexing it makes for this very useful parent-child relationship?

As for the shape property -- well, to be honest, all my formal reading on binary heaps has stated that both properties are needed for it to be a binary heap; if it's not either obeying both properties or trying to restore both properties, it's something like a binary heap but not a binary heap. However, that may just be the gaps in my knowledge showing. -- Antaeus Feldspar 08:31, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Advice on controversial articles

I see from your edits that you're quite concerned about the articles that deal with cults, as I am. I'd like to give you just a bit of advice that might help you get more result from your effort, and that's to not give people the conclusion you think they should reach. I call this "jumping in the jury box"; if you want to convince people, you want to put the facts before them and present them in a compelling way. You can't jump in the jury box and announce "I've decided for you that this is the conclusion you should reach!" -- that's more likely to turn people off. Some of your edits have that quality -- the edit summary alone on this one is over the top -- and I hope you'll realize that if there's anyone out there that hasn't yet decided where they stand on the issue, declaring "this is how you'll regard things!" is more likely to alienate them than convince them. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:03, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course, I understand. But some people don't hesitate to play games with the system, under pretence of giving facts. Sometimes it has to be said, so that they understand their maneuvers cannot go far, and so that they think twice before doing it again. I think I got some results that way. What I agree is that it is better to do it in the talk page than in the article --Pgreenfinch 14:28, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Re: your comments on User:Marvelvsdc, a.k.a. User:68.49.237.159

I had a look at these users contributions, I have to say most of what I saw looked like perfectly good information. I totally agree with your "GOOPTI" philosophy, but I think there are literally thousands of users contributing fancruft. I think it's futile to battle fancruft on a case-by-case basis, without a strong policy backing you up. Personally, I don't allow myself to care about these types of contributions anymore. I mean who's going to read an article about an obscure comic book character, except someone who cares about obscure comic book characters? Sure, I wish these articles weren't there; Misplaced Pages would probably have more credibility- but there is enough work just reverting all the "Paul is gay" edits!

See you around the Wiki ike9898 01:33, Feb 14, 2005 (UTC)

Hash table

Why do we need the text "or probably will" in the hash table article? The hash function defines the set of locations in the hash table where the hashed value might be found; ISTM that meaning is sufficiently conveyed without the "or probably will" text. Or is there some variant of hashing I'm overlooking that does need this clarification? Neilc 00:51, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it's a variant covered in the article, under Open addressing. In open addressing, the hash function only determines the first place the hash table will try to put the entry; if something already occupies that space, some strategy is used to determine the next place to try, and the next, until finally an open spot is found. It's not really accurate to count that strategy as part of the hash function.

Whether that slight inaccuracy is worth fudging over in the introduction is a question open to debate; I restored it mostly because it looked like someone else had completely misparsed the syntax of the sentence and tried to "correct" grammar that wasn't wrong, and someone else had seen the now-incorrect sentence and removed the seemingly-redundant part entirely. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:58, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Star Wars and GOOPTI

OK Anteus, you've convinced me (on another user page, which I shouldn't hog). The Star Wars episode I saw (either the second or third) was overrated and hackneyed, and nothing in it seemed new, but yes, OK, these movies had a major, bad influence on Hollywood. Though actually Hollywood studios continued to push out quite a lot of movies, and the near-infallible predilection of suburban cinemas (in the two countries in which I've lived) for the trite minority among them (Pretty Woman, etc.) I think long predated (and thus can't be blamed on) Star Wars. (I did once see Usual Suspects in a suburban cinema -- perhaps it had made some mistake.) Compare two Kevin Costner baseball movies made at about the same time: Field of Dreams, tacky (I rented the video but gave up after 20 minutes), widely exhibited; Bull Durham, first-rate, little exhibited. I've got dozens of DVDs of watchable post–Star Wars Hollywood movies; I'm delighted to say that they don't show any Star Wars influence. (They're also not directed by Spielberg, don't star Keanu Reeves, Tom Hanks, Robin Williams, etc. . . . hmm, they're not very Hollywoody.) -- Hoary 07:34, 2005 Feb 15 (UTC)

I give in. You're right. The Star Wars movies are horrible movies. They are loud, stupid, lowbrow, and of course, American, which encompasses all three of the above. And of course, as we all know, movies which are stupid and lowbrow have no real impact whatsoever and are ipso facto not notable. Let's VfD any article which makes any mention of these awful movies which were never popular with any notable number of people, had no impact on popular culture or on the business of moviemaking, and never had any true fans. There. Are you happy? Is this what it takes to make you happy? -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:30, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, I'm unhappy as usual. If they're as bad as I think (and I've only seen one of them so perhaps shouldn't judge), I would indeed be happy if they'd had no influence. But you've persuaded me that they did (or the first one did) indeed have a major influence on Hollywood. That's a most unhappy thought. Meanwhile, "American" of course encompasses loud, stupid and lowbrow, just as "Japanese", "British", etc., do. (Probably "Malian", "Zimbabwean", "Belizean", etc. -- everything.) Luckily it also encompasses stuff that's very different; just from the post–Star Wars era, there are American Movie, Being John Malkovich, The Eyes of Tammy Faye, Fargo, Little Odessa, The Player, Quiz Show . . . oh, lots more. What would it take to make me happy? Well, for a start, Dubya could take a very large bite of a very large pretzel. How about you, Antaeus? Do you enjoy the Star Wars films? Do you think I'm missing something? -- Hoary 04:24, 2005 Feb 16 (UTC)

Killian Documents

Thanks for commenting on the Killian documents issue. Are you familiar with the facts concerning the authenticity of these documents? Anonip 00:09, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm familiar with Misplaced Pages's principle of NPOV, which is why even on issues that are a whole lot more black-and-white than the Killian documents, we don't jump in the jury box and say "Here is the conclusion you would have to come to if you looked at the facts", we say "here are the facts." -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:25, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, I just wanted to clarify. You haven't actually investigated the specific facts in this case, your position is simply based on your understanding of the Misplaced Pages NPOV principle. You believe NPOV does not permit Misplaced Pages to state that the documents are forgeries, even if that assertion is not seriously disputed. Correct? Anonip 00:44, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Let me put it this way: I do not accept your judgement on what is "serious" disputation and what is "unserious" disputation. If there wasn't any dispute, then there wouldn't be any debate about how to refer to the documents. Since there clearly is a dispute, it is Misplaced Pages's policy to describe the dispute, not to assert "this is the side of the dispute you should take, since it's clearly the correct one." The only exception I'll make to this is on mathematical topics where certain truths are simply unescapable given a certain set of axioms. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:20, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please bear with me. I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to understand your thinking. When you say "there clearly is a dispute", are you referring to a dispute about the fact among competent sources, or a dispute about the fact among anonymous (possibly incompetent) Misplaced Pages editors? Do you believe that the latter, in the absence of the former, requires Misplaced Pages to state that the facts are disputed? Anonip 03:33, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Again, you seem to be trying to angle towards the idea "the only people who are not absolutely convinced that they're forgeries are people too incompetent to be taken seriously", presumably under the mistaken assumption that if that could be shown to be the case, it would logically follow that Misplaced Pages would describe the situation the way the smart, right people see it, and would completely ignore the way the "incompetent" people see it. But since this latter assumption is completely incorrect, you can angle towards the former idea all you want and it won't make a damn bit of difference. Look at Raelism. If we went by your mistaken assumption that Misplaced Pages should state as truth the beliefs of "competent sources" and ignore views which are fringe, "incompetent", or outright lunatic, don't you think the article would state "The Raelians are some real freakin' nutjobs, man!"? I certainly think their beliefs are seriously bizarre -- but have I tried to edit the article to say "Everyone who's sane agrees that the doctrines of the Raelians are completely wrong"? No, and if you understood NPOV and cared about it, you wouldn't be on this wrong-headed campaign to say "Everyone who counts knows they're forgeries, and anyone who doesn't think they're forgeries doesn't count, and therefore the article should state as fact that they're forgeries." -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:10, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm having trouble following you. By "competent" I mean those with recognized expertise (in the real world) releence and clearly articulated reaamined the matter carefully, and have stated their expert conclusions supported by credible evidence and clearly articulated reasoning. By "incompetent" (perhaps I should have said "non-competent") I mean those who lack relevant expertise, who have not examined the matter carefully, and who simply assert their beliefs without credible evidence or articulated reasoning. The qualification of competent sources is objective and does not depend on their conclusions. In principle it is possible to have competent sources who reach different conclusions. In that case there would be a serious factual dispute. But what if there are no competent sources who disagree about a fact? Is disagreement by non-competent Wikipedians sufficient to require Misplaced Pages to treat a fact as disputed? That's my question.

And although I don't think the issue here is about fringe beliefs, suppose the Zaelians believe Abraham Lincoln was an extraterrestrial. Would the Misplaced Pages article on Lincoln have to say something like: "Lincoln is generally believed to have been born in Kentucky, but the Zaelians believe he was born on Sirius Zeta-9."? Anonip 05:38, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

First off, you need to go read WP:NPOV, because the questions you're asking are answered there. Really. Second, you can define "competent" all you want and yet it's not going to change the central point: even if it was provably true that the only people disputing the non-authenticity of the Killian documents were "incompetent", "non-competent", "partisans", "real morons", whatever -- it wouldn't change the fact that they dispute it.

Thirdly, your Zaelians example cannot be fairly evaluated because the Zaelians are a made-up group and do not exist. It is therefore impossible to evaluate whether it is truly a "fringe belief" or whether it is a belief held by enough people to make it notable even if it is a belief that no one should be believing (in, of course, the evaluation of those who don't believe it.) But again, I believe that what you are pushing towards is "if I can convince everyone that everyone's who's anyone believes that the Killian documents are forgeries, and that it's therefore a fringe belief that they might be authentic, then I have all the ammunition I need to say 'Why even acknowledge such a fringe belief? Let's just go with what we in the right" (no pun intended) "know to be true, that they're forgeries.'" Trust me, the belief would have to be very much more fringe in order to justify the kind of changes you have been proposing to make. -- Antaeus Feldspar 06:39, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus, after messing up your talk page last night (although I think it may have been due to technical difficulties on the Misplaced Pages end), I've decided to move the discussion to my own talk page. That's probably a better place for it anyway. Please respond to me there. Anonip 17:36, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

TH

Nice explanation

You wrote a really nice letter on User talk:24.126.173.124. You didn't bite the newcomer or denigrate the subject, you succinctly explained the relevent parts of Wiki culture and procedure, and beautifully demonstrated the nature of notability as applicable to autobiography and NPOV. I hope you won't be bothered if I draw upon it in the future if I ever feel the need to write a similar letter. Cheers, -Willmcw 00:54, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC) (Though I must add that I don't know/don't care about the deal with DG's involvement - just talking about the other stuff -W.)

Why, thank you. No, I won't be bothered if you draw on it; I'd be quite pleased. (Though, understandably, you probably won't have to mention David Gerard; I felt I had to do it in this case, because as the letter indicates, his advice to 24.126.173.124 was more reflective of how he feels WP should operate than how it does.)

I am an idealist myself sometimes. I haven't seen the letter you were responding to - I just happened upon the page and saw the good explanation of autobiography issues. Anyway, wikilove. Cheers, -Willmcw 01:16, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)

OK, so perhaps the wheelie bin is not the most apt analogy to a non-notable biography. ;) Better to use a non-controversial example of non-notability, like an average high school. <;) In the wiki semi-policy on autobiographies there is a warning that articles begun in vanity may, in the hands of other editors, take on an entirely unexpected character. That's worth repeating too. -Willmcw 09:29, Feb 25, 2005 (UTC)

Please desist

Antenaeus, you took such a good deal of time to polish your response that you failed to address the issue at hand. The matter is being handled by David. Please consider it closed, as the deletion of our message to you ought to have suggested. Your "private" messages, as we stated prior, post to an entire network. Please desist. Thank you. -- unsigned message by 24.126.173.124

I don't know where you got the idea that David is the authority and that people like Uncle G. -- and like myself, when I don't tell you what you want to hear -- are merely "volunteers" to be arrogantly waved away. You simply cannot post articles about yourself on Misplaced Pages -- violating Misplaced Pages policy, as it has been explained -- and then instruct people the matter is "closed" to them. That is not your prerogative to determine, and neither is it David's. If you imagined that Misplaced Pages was a place where you would be free to advertise yourself to your heart's content and no one else would be allowed to say anything about it, then you are very incorrect; if you think that you can say things on Misplaced Pages when you think they'll get you what you want and then delete them without trace when it ceases to be convenient, you are again mistaken. Perhaps you should re-think your behavior in light of these realities. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:41, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Correction

Mr. Feldspar, as well-crafted as your letter appears, your information is inaccuate and reveals poor research. Ms. Spicuzza and "her" collective, as you refer-- a contradication in terms in itself-- are internationally known. She did not submit "autobiographically." She "lent" her permission for use. We are consulting with David as to whether all history, including contributions, ought be eliminated from Misplaced Pages altogether. Most of us involved, some members, some not, are sorry we ever posted. -- unsigned message by 24.126.173.124

"Lent" her permission for use? Ah, I see. I didn't realize that it was Misplaced Pages which came to Ms. Spicuzza and to the collective and begged "Please! You are so internationally famous we must have an article upon you! Except no description from outside could possibly do justice to such an amazing subject, so it will have to be someone from the same IP whose contributions are sometimes signed 'Jeanne-Marie' who creates the article!" Oh, wait ... you mean it wasn't? You mean it was someone from the collective who decided, "Wow! Our collective, and our founder, are so 'internationally famous', Misplaced Pages needs an article on both!" Well, then, I don't see how it doesn't qualify as autobiography -- and I don't see how it excepts you from the warning which was clearly put in front of you when you started each new page: "Please do not create an article to promote yourself, a website, a product, or a business." -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:41, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Feldspar,

Ms. Spicuzza "lent" her permission to the collective and non-members, not Misplaced Pages, as you've assumed, who share an ISP hub. I am not famous, nor did I claim to be. Ms. Spicuzza is. Your tone is quite rude, thus I make this my final posting. *Shelly Robbins, member

Your behavior has been rude, arrogant, and unwise, and thus I fully support your plan to make this your final posting. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please desist

I think perhaps you ought to consider your behavior in light of this. -Rick

I think perhaps you, all of you, Jeanne-Marie, and "Shelly" who is using the IP address 24.126.173.124 at 21:47 to announce that it's her last posting and "Rick" who is suddenly using the same IP address at 21:56, nine minutes later, to continue the same posting pattern, should try growing up. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:02, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please desist

I think you should try growing up. -Rick

Thanks for your opinion. When I come to your place and start pretending that I know the way things are done there so much better than you and patronize you, then your correction will be well-deserved. In the meantime, in the real world, you may (or may not) be multiple people behind that IP address but only one of you seems even close to realizing that you can't just waltz onto Misplaced Pages and take what you want (publicity and promotion) and thumb your nose at the way we do things around here. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:26, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

ISP Sharing

Isn't he aware of how many people can share a single network? --Irene

Bell inequalities vfd

Thanks for your input. I added a reply to Caroline Thompson's comments. Please have a look and also carefully look at the talk page of that Bell's theorem article. CSTAR 14:25, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Aphrodite

Well, look at it like this - if is wasnt for people like me who create articles, people like you wouldnt have anything to do, would they? As for reintroducing errors, as I created it in the first place and was still working on it, then I consider it gives me artistic licence to make typos. As for criticising my grammar...........languages evolve by distorting grammer, just go with the flow dude.

Lincolnshire Poacher

PS. I just read something on your user page:

'there is a place on Misplaced Pages for descriptions for television shows and video games and webcomics, but how much detail these things actually deserve is proportional to how much influence they have actually had on the real world.'

Wow, thats arrogant beyond belief!!! Who are you to judge how influential any particualr thing has been on any particular societal group? Are you an expert on EVERY cultural and Social grouping on the planet? I think not!! If so, I was born in 1954 and live in Lincolnshire, UK, so tell me what was influential to me, if your an expert? I think if someone wants an article on some obscure comic that influenced him so much he remembered it from childhood, and you've never heard of it, then that hardly gives you a valid reason to oppose it.

I read the bits above about this, and you either have an unbiassed encyclopedia that encompasses all knowledge, of you censor it to some arbitrary ruleset defined by some personal subjective worldview. Personally, I prefer the former.....who are you to censor anyone else?

I think you need to reevaluate your own importance to the planet, dude............

Thank you for your opinion. I'll give it the appropriate amount of consideration, based on your idea that people who create articles are some separate, superior class to people who actually work on articles that they didn't create, working on more than just the bits that are fun, and that merely creating an article on Misplaced Pages gives you "artistic license" to undo the work of others. I'm sure you're just the person to tell me about who is arrogant. -- Antaeus Feldspar 18:35, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

By the way, if you don't think you can bear to read about my own philosophies, then you might not want to read that section of my user page, the one marked "Philosophies". Just a hint, to such a clever lad as yourself. -- Antaeus Feldspar 04:59, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Listign of purported hate groups

I understand that type of issue. It seems like the hate groups should all be in the list of purported hate groups, rather than the hate groups article itself. As it was, I only dropped one - the empty category of anti-cult groups. If it's important to have that or other unsourced hate groups then we could create a subsection for alleged hate groups that do not appear on any source list. Let me take another look at it after dinner and see if there's a way to bridge the gap. Cheers, -Willmcw 02:16, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

PS- I just checked the history of the Hate group article and see that, indeed, the listings were merged. Nonetheless, every single one that was included was supportable by citations from the ADL or SPLC. So although I changed the criteria, that didn't make any difference (except for the new, empty section "anti-cult"). So, I don't see an actual problem- but maybe I missed it. FYI, Rick Ross and the old AFF list "controversial groups" (not cults), which include hate groups and NRMs. So if we need to broaden the scope of sources, we should be able to find a citation to support almost any group's inclusion. We've got open arms for hate groups! It's a big tent. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:01, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the correction on the Efuru stub. Clearly I need to not edit late at night. The lesbian 06:44, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're quite welcome! I don't mind doing spelling and grammar edits when I see them -- well, as long as the next person to edit doesn't erase them because he can't be bothered to edit an edit conflict... 9_9 -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:01, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Best wishes

Best wishes for a speedy recovery. Fighting for NPOV is not as fun without you around... :) --Zappaz 19:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:42, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey

Can you allow me to blank my user page? I threw all that stuff up on there just to see if it would work...I didn't think it would be attacked the way it was. I'd like to keep it blank from now on. Thanks. Kaneda 07:08, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The reason I restore pages that are blanked during VfD (the reason the VfD notice itself tells you not to blank the page) is so those who go to check whether the content merits deletion will see the content that everyone else voted on. Since the VfD looks certain to pass anyways, I don't know that it makes a lot of difference. -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:19, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Belated thanks.

For pointing out that my scratch page was appearing in a category. Don't know how I missed this. Rich Farmbrough 14:06, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How to Heal Traumas

Thank you for your edits. I feel the book and hopefully the article will help a lot of people.--Jondel 00:05, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome! I'm glad I could help out... -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:07, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Umm,as suggested by Plek and GeorgeS, I'm going to propose renaming to Waking the Tiger, removing redirects, create See-also links from articles of Fear, Trauma, etc. This fulfils my purposes. Sorry for your trouble. I may copy the whole thing or a complete write up. I don't feel the need to push for this article if the renaming or write up of Waking The Tiger is well done. What do you think?--Jondel 01:05, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Waking the Tiger

Hi Anteus. I've done renamed and tried to rewrite as best as I could. Now I'm asking for your help if you are interested. The Waking The Tiger btw has a new peer review request. The VFD has transferred to Waking the Tiger.--Jondel 05:48, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Anteus, you have a gift with words (reffering to assuming bad faith), nurture it!--Jondel 02:14, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article was restored! Open the champagne! Thanks for your help.!--Jondel 07:51, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Congrats! -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:49, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Walker, Texas Ranger lever

Hey thanks for merging my Walker, Texas Ranger lever article to the Conan page. I didn't know it was listed on the Conan article and it makes more sense to be on that.

--Jedihobbit 16:30, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No problem! I tend to be a mergist and so "part of a larger article" tends to occur to me as where information may belong -- or may already be, as was the case here. -- Antaeus Feldspar 16:41, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rex

I have no problem with your having edited User:JamesMLane/Rexlog. It's still a draft and I'm glad to get anyone's input. (I'm especially glad to see you're fairly active. I hope that means good news about your health.) Rex has also been stalking me, voting on a couple CfD's after I did. It's kind of funny that he stalks other people, given that he complained loudly when he thought others were tracking his edits. Once you're finished admiring the irony, though, is it ArbCom material? It's not a violation of any policy that I know of. I'm inclined to leave it out of a formal RfAr. I'd be glad to get your thoughts on the subject, though. JamesMLane 17:03, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, if he takes it to the level that he did before, before his "leaving forever", it may rise to the level where it can be presented to the ArbCom as evidence of harassment. At the current time, though, I agree that it's best left out of a formal RfAr. -- Antaeus Feldspar 17:47, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've filed the RfAr. Thanks for your help in developing it. JamesMLane 07:07, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Links to 9/11 open questions

Deleting or redirecting links to a page being voted on for deletion is sabotaging the election process. As such it could be argued to be vandalism of the Wiki election process. If you see the Wiki deletion policy, it states that links to an article can be deleted and redirected to more suitable links after the article is deleted. I doubt anyone would condone doing this while the election is in progress. Please stop.

I see the Misplaced Pages deletion policy and I see no such statement as you claim there to be, stating that redirects to an article must not be changed while the article is in VfD. Even if 9/11 open questions were to be kept it would be absurd to redirect 9/11/01 to that article rather than to September 11, 2001 attacks. It's not as if anyone would be searching on 9/11/01 to try and find your article -- let alone that they would type in 9/11, an existing redirect which pointed to September 11, 2001 attacks, trying to get your own article, which you changed the redirect to.

Are you seriously suggesting that if I created an article called al-Qaeda is an awesome musical group and created multiple new redirects to it under every variant spelling that I could think of and changed redirects currently pointing to al-Qaeda to my bogus article -- are you seriously suggesting that from the moment my article was put on VfD, that no one would "condone" changing those redirects to a non-bogus target? because it might "sabotage" the VfD process? The suggestion is ludicrous and will be ignored accordingly. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:18, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

9/11

You edit summary read -rv; please be honest and mark reverts as such in your edit summaries. And if "9/11" is too ambiguous, what sense does it make to redirect to "11/9"???)

• What do you mean be honest? How am I being dishonest by stating the reason why I am reverting this page?
• What sense does it make to redirect to "11/9"? - 11/9 is a disambiguation page which lists the meanings of 9/11 and 11/9. I could duplicate this page in its entirety but why not use a redirect? I will duplicate the page to satisfy your requirements the next time.
• A very long time ago, (in 2002 I think), this page along with pages like 10/12, 10/3 etc.. were created en masse. It was decided to delete all of them because while 9/11 means September 11 to Americans, for everybody else it means 9th of November.
• Take a look at 9-11 - that is a disambiguatrion page. Why should this be any different? Jooler 09:00, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I note your failure to address the issues raised here and on the relevant talk pages. Jooler 12:31, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yes; absurd responses such as "It also means 9 shillings and 11 pence" convinced me very early on that talk was wasted; that I was dealing with someone doggedly determined to revert this redirect, not out of ignorance that for every citizen of the United States "9/11" means "the attacks of September 11, 2001", but because that is an indelible association for Americans, and Americans need to be put in their place. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:41, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There is nothing "absurd" about 9/11 meaning nine shillings and eleven pence. This is how the value of pre-decimal British coinage was written. Perhaps you recall the Mad Hatter's hat from Alice in Wonderland where a ticket with the price of the hat at "10/6" remained tucked into the band - see . The point of saying that was to illustrate that "9/11" can mean a whole host of things other than the date, expressed in a particularly parochial format, of a particularly nasty incident. Pointing out that people from outside of the USA do not spell certain words the way they do; or call certain objects by another name; or do not believe in the same values, or wexpress dates in a different format is not an attempt to "put Americans in their place". Jooler 08:00, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If I were to insist that Boxing Day be a disambiguation page, because in addition to being a national holiday for millions of people, it could be used by some people to refer to a particular day on which some particularly anticipated boxing match is scheduled to happen, it would be clearly ridiculous, because the national holiday is by far the more prominent and encyclopedic meaning. It is true that not everyone in the entire world calls the events of September 11, 2001 "9/11". It is also true that if you say to any mentally competent American adult "9/11" they will understand immediately that you are talking about the attacks of September 11, 2001 and their aftermath. In contrast, please show me the existing article that Misplaced Pages has on the subject of "nine shillings and eleven pence". Or an article for any money amount expressed in shillings and pence. Or an article for any specific money amount specified in any coinage system. You can't find it? Good; now you know why I called your suggestion that 9/11 needs to be a disambiguation page because it could mean "nine shillings and eleven pence", which we do not and never will have an article on, absurd. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:30, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

That would be boxing day not Boxing Day. In any case we are talking about a redirect, so if you want to "fix" the redirect at "boxing day" go ahead. For the vast majority of the world that particular sequence of characters means 9th of September, but I am not suggesting that the page should redirect to that date. It should be a disambiguation page. I was not in anyway suggesting that we should have an article on the specific sum of money 9 shillings and 11 pence, merely that that particular form of characters can be used to express things other than the date. However there are many disambiguation pages which list meanings that do not require theer own article. See Jack Jooler 23:09, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Vaccines

Antaeus, your fair-minded dedication to NPOV might be put to good use on the vaccine article, which could use a good NPOVing by someone who is more of a stickler for details. Interested? Ombudsman 01:42, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'll look it over and see what I can do. Thank you for the compliment. -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thnks. In striving for NPOV, a straight line may not be viable, much less optimal. The ADHD article needed a good keelhauling, for reasons such as those eloquently expressed by *Kat*. NPOV is in the eye of the beholder; perhaps perusal of the links at Keirsey will help instill an understanding of others and their perspectives on NPOV and ADHD. Ombudsman 05:00, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

New Freedom Commission on Mental Health & TMAP

(consolidation of Antaeus' thread, where a compliment on his differing reactions to two articles inexplicably turned to his analysis of two different "situations") copied from User talk:ClockworkSoul Would you mind taking a look at New Freedom Commission on Mental Health from a NPOV-maintenance perspective? It seems to contain a lot of the material that was cut from Texas Medication Algorithm Project, which needed to be NPOV'ed. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:53, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It is impressive to find a Wikipedian's adaption toward a consensus-driven mode, Antaeus, and your restraint this time around is admirable. Both articles were written as a starting point, obviously, and your modifications, rather than simple culling, are very much welcome. Ombudsman 07:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

copied from User talk:Ombudsman

Well, I believe that by "adaption" you must mean the different reactions I had to two different situations. In all honesty I believe you must look at the differences between the two situations: one was an article that had been worked on by just one editor, and no one reasonably expects even the most fair-minded editor to produce something fully NPOV by themselves. The other, however, while under the edit summary "cleanup of non-neutral bias", introduced copious use of scare quotes around words such as 'improvements' and 'authoritative' and 'problem', and bolding around phrases such as "almost all of the latest studies have been sponsored by drug companies" and "rates of diagnosis vary widely even within the U.S. In some school districts as many as 60% of all children have been diagnosed with ADHD". Even accepting your explanation that you only meant to put these phrases in italics, and the bolding is accidental, it leaves the question of why these phrases needed to be italicized at all. What has not even been touched on yet is how this "cleanup of non-neutral bias" came to include insertion of so many statements either implying or directly stating malfeasance on the part of "the industry", as in changing "These questions cannot be answered unless one knows about the effects of these fatty acids on the dopamine system." to "These questions cannot be answered unless one knows about the effects of these fatty acids on the dopamine system, and the economic realities regarding who is funding studies attempting to debunk the correlation." and "The process of obtaining referals for such assessments is being pushed vigorously by the pharmaceutical industry, in the guise of the President's New Freedom Commission on Mental Health". Ombudsman, I am willing to assume good faith of your intention to work for NPOV, but I am afraid that that edit, especially under that edit summary, presents a lot of evidence to make me wonder if you have really thought through what it entails. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:23, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

btw, the two starting points, sorry it wasn't specified, were meant to reference the differing treatments of TMAP and New Freedom Commission on Mental Health. Ombudsman 05:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As I stated at your talk page, I admire your dedication to NPOV while wondering if you truly understand what it is. I don't know what "a straight line may not be viable, much less optimal" is supposed to mean; what I do know is that a great many editors think that when they have the article in a state where their POV is fully and sympathetically expressed, and everyone else's POV is grudgingly given an airing followed immediately by disclaimers that one would be a fool to believe such a thing, that this is NPOV because every POV is thereby represented in some form. -- Antaeus Feldspar 12:37, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Compliments & Complements

Just for the record, Antaeus, your hard work here at Misplaced Pages is valuable, though everyone errs at times. The application of your strengths no doubt provides discipline to complement the Kindness Campaign. The fact that you aggressively have defended an anonymous poster, despite evidence of mischief, including some you may have missed, shows just how kind you can be. It is hoped that you will, in general, treat extablished contributors with equal deference. You are, of course, a staunch defender of your point of view on NPOV and merging, and it is hoped you will tolerate differing perspectives on such matters, and also defend those whose views do not coincide with your own. It would be appreciated if you might contribute more to articles where you see deficits, rather than simply expressing your point of view about the edits of others.

RE Evangelion

The Lilith = 2nd angel is indeed Fannon, as is Touji's younder sister and Kensuke's hakcer status. Why did you remove everything? NovaSatori

Some of the items you listed may indeed be fanon. Others, however, have been confirmed by Gainax as official canon in sources such as the Red Cross Book. Others are not fanon; they're just something that appeared in someone's fanfic. In addition to these problems, when you're writing in an article, it's not a good idea to include notes to other editors such as "(someone check me on this one, because the wikipedia article seems to disagree)" -- the talk pages are how you should communicate with other editors, as that's why they exist. For the articles, we should be aiming for a professional tone. These are the reasons that led me to revert to the previous version. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:56, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Fanon adopted into canon was still considered fanon. In any case Touji's younger sister is definately fanon. NovaSatori

You might want to go back and check the definition of fanon a bit more carefully. Fanon is that which is believed by significant numbers of fans or treated by large numbers of fans as if it was canon, although it is not. And as previous discussions have clarified, there's a difference between "it appeared in a fanfic" and "it's fanon". -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:42, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removal of VfD notice by article's author

I have again removed it. Take it to WP:RFAr. ==SV 01:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:AMA_Requests_for_Assistance#Criticism_of_the_Iraq_War-==SV

Edit summary

Hello. Please remember to always provide an edit summary. Thanks and happy edits. Hyacinth 01:13, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Corax

I'll thank you not to censor my posts. I'll take my chances with the personal attacks policy. Adam 07:26, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Don't thank me for something I don't plan to do. If you are going to throw libellous and baseless accusations of pedophilia I will feel free to remove them and I am not the only one who takes that policy on personal attacks. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:31, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Citizens Commission on Human Rights

The anonymous user:192.104.181.227/user:192.104.181.229 does not seem to be willing to discuss his or her edits, and instead is just reverting without explanation. I've left a note on his talk page, a note in the article talk page, and several notes in edit summaries. I am not generally interested in pursuing minor violations, but do you think a 3RR time-out would bring this editor to the talk page? Cheers, -Willmcw 21:55, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

FYI, received a response at User_talk:192.104.181.227. -Willmcw 22:48, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

Given the tenor of that response, I think a 3RR time-out might be highly salubrious. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Probably so, but since the last edit was more of an evolution than a revert, perhaps it is not needed. In fact, the article may have achieved a rough balance for the time being. Thanks for being on top of it. Cheers, -Willmcw 08:51, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, it was an attack

You wrote on m discussion page that you didn't mean it as a threat about the 3RR thing. If that were true, explain why you were intrested in counting up multiple revisions because the IPs were similar.

"I'm tempted to go back and see how many reverts 227/9 racked up in 24 hours... -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:14, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)"

Because you'd be surprised how many people are warned about the 3RR and violate it anyways -- thinking that "my reverts are 'good' reverts because I'm reverting to the good version of the article; his reverts are 'bad' reverts because he's reverting to the bad version of the article" has any relevance to the way the 3RR operates. Someone who responds to a heads-up about the 3RR with irrelevant blather about "my reverts were good; yours were bad" and "your reverts are worse because they're blind/you didn't repeat your reasons" is missing the point, and this is an excellent predictor of who's going to violate it again even after warnings. And someone who racks up almost enough reverts for two people (now that we know you and 229 are the same, unless you make a habit of answering messages to other people on other people's talk pages) is also quite likely to keep violating the 3RR even after being warned.

A threat would be "If you keep doing something I don't like, then I will inflict some consequence." My warning is "If you keep doing something prohibited by the rules of Misplaced Pages, then you may face consequences inflicted by Misplaced Pages." You may not see the distinction, but that says more about what you choose not to see than about the distinction not being there. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:48, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

SamuraiClinton

I have to tell you, I'm getting rather upset with this individual's behavior. Case in point: Candy Girl. I've voted to delete this on general principle. In other words, blow this thing out of the edit history and if another editor wants to write an article - a real article - on the Frankie Valli song, they can start fresh. Better we have a red link IMO. - Lucky 6.9 23:03, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Mark Geier

I see you have Mark Geier watchlisted. :) I'm going to take some stabs at un-POV-ing it, and it's good to know someone else with an outside perspective is sanity checking me. --TenOfAllTrades | Talk 01:51, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Church caps.

Hi, sorry to hear you haven't been well. Speedy recovery. In relation to an earlier discussion on the (R)CC page, you may wish to have a look at this MoS comment. Alai 05:39, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Comment at Talk:Scientology_controversy

Hi: It is my opinion that you are doing good work at the controversial Scientology_controversy page. GodHelpWiki is very upset about the contents of the page. It seems that we both disagree with much of what he says. That said, however, I do think that the tone of your last response to him was rather harsh in tone. "Well, then, clearly you don't know as much about Misplaced Pages as you think you do" could be taken as an implication that s/he is stupid (given the anger/hurt s/he already shows). The "clearly" is what makes it seem so pointed. "It seems to be one of many things you still don't understand" is similar; with "many" as the barb. I do not think think that your suggestion that s/he has not read what is being written is likely to make him/her any more amenable. Please would you consider rephrasing your response to soften it and to encourage constructive discussion? --Theo (Talk) 16:23, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

User:Antaeus FeIdspar

My pleasure. It was a bit confusing at first, though — the two user names looked identical on every part of my screen except my address-box (when I hovered the cursor over them). Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:09, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Facts or knowledge

The "distance", I would write, between facts and knowledge...but that's a matter of taste. --VKokielov 07:35, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Template

Antaeus, I felt you were a little unfair in the way you responded to Grace Note regarding Template:Explain significance. I share your evident frustration over the amount of rubbish we often have to deal with, and I also know that it's annoying to have templates edited (I've had a couple of mine changed), but on the other hand, Grace Note's edit was quite reasonable and introduced only a subtle (but arguably important) change of tone. Perhaps a compromise text could be worked out. Anyway, I hope you don't mind me expressing my view here. SlimVirgin 09:04, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but Grace Note's editing made two changes:

• It removed the completely factual information that articles which make readers say, "So... why is this subject worth reading about, again?" do regularly get nominated for deletion (and as we both know, frequently wind up deleted once there.)
• It inserted the suggestion to simply remove the tag "if you feel this ... is not necessary."

Both of those are more than a subtle change of tone. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:39, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so. It still asks for extra information on "significance" (without pretending it's anything other than one editor's opinion that it does) and it still mentions that it might be nominated for deletion. I think it's only fair to point out to new users that they can remove a tag if they don't feel it's necessary. You and I know that's the case, because we are bold enough to make changes when we simply differ in opinion, but a newer editor might be intimidated. I'll give you an example: John Smith might be a world-leading widget scientist, and the stub might say so. How can you further explain his significance? He's significant because he's a world leader in widgets. That might seem plain to me and not plain to you. So you tag it because you think widget scientists are not "notable" and I remove it because I think they are. Okay? No big deal. We differ in opinion. But I think the template needs to make that freedom to differ in opinion explicit. Otherwise, you get what I've had with other templates: you can't remove it once I've put it there. Well, yes, you can. They're like any other edit. If the subject of a vanity page removes it, or its author, there are other means to keep it there. You can write to the author, explain the use of the template and ask them to leave it. Explain that it's meant to help, not hurt. Grace Note 06:44, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Fine. I'll still note that it is one of a very small number of tags which invite the reader to completely dismiss the concern that it represents. And based on my experience, new editors generally don't need encouragement to dismiss the concerns raised by more experienced editors -- what they much more often need is encouragement to take such concerns seriously, and realize that maybe some of the assumptions they're under regarding Misplaced Pages aren't the way Misplaced Pages actually works.

Your example of: John Smith is a world-leading widget scientist; the stub says so; Editor X puts on the tag because he doesn't think that even the world's single most notable widget scientist is notable -- sure, it's easy to follow that example, and it shows why it would be a Good Thing for the tag to suggest "remove me if I'm not necessary and the person who thinks I am is wrong!" But let me offer two counter-examples:

Newcomer Y hears a little bit about Misplaced Pages, and proving the adage that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", decides that this must be the most fabulous idea of all time: if they let anyone edit any page, it's going to be a great place to tell everyone how great and cool his lunchtable gang at his high school is! The tag goes on the article, but it suggests "remove this tag if it's not necessary." Newcomer Y still hasn't gotten the idea that the "-pedia" in Misplaced Pages means that we are aiming for an open-content encyclopedia, rather than something closer to a graffiti wall, and so the minute he sees "if it's not necessary," the possibility that it might be necessary is already gone from his mind. He chucks the tag, because who is anyone on Misplaced Pages to judge whether his social clique is "significant" or not? They don't even know his social clique, because they don't go to his high school!

Newcomer Z hears about Misplaced Pages, and wonders if they have a page about his favorite band, the Mudskippers. When he finds out that they don't, he happily sets to work preparing one, including all sorts of biographical details that will surely be of interest to any true Mudskippers fan, like why Mark always wears that stocking cap on stage and why Kevin, the guitarist, will never use any brand of strings except Champion. Someone puts the tag on the article and when Newcomer Z sees it, he steps back and for the first time sees the article from the perspective of someone who isn't already a Mudskippers fan. "Oh!" he says. "Why are they notable? Uh... well, they're signed to one of the major indie labels, and their music is starting to get used in commercials and TV shows... I should probably put that in the article, shouldn't I?"

Now between those two sets of examples, which do you find more probable? I can definitely tell you which I think matches up better with what actually happens on Misplaced Pages, and it's the latter. I can even back this up with an example that just happened: Looking at the category that the tag places the article into, I see "La-Z-Boy". Someone thought La-Z-Boy was important enough to create a stub on, but forgot to mention the reasons why it's important -- in this case, the fact that they happen to be the United States' largest manufacturer of recliners. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:09, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Cognotechnology?

You put the page Cognotechnology into Category:Anti-cult terms and concepts. I'm a bit curious on the logic behind this, since the article does not mention cults at all in any form. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:42, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

The logic behind putting it in Category:Anti-cult terms and concepts was rather informal and simple: It is somehow connected to the other issues in cat, has similar potential for discussion (critical, etc.), and is controversal. That's all, nothing about cult (do the other have anything to do with cult?). I thought it just had to be put in some category. I'll add engineering, too. Maybe neuroscience would be good also. I think, we need some new categories anyway, to get some order in engineering, neuroscience, etc. Please post me your ideas. Ben please vote! 05:22, May 17, 2005 (UTC)

Well, IMHO, something is wrong if there are articles in Category:Anti-cult terms and concepts that don't have anything to do with cults. It is "somehow connected", yes, but the connection is not strong: a frequent concern about cults is the possibility that they are exerting mind control over their members by means of sleep deprivation, love bombing, et cetera, while the article seems to indicate that "cognotechnology" is hypothesized mind control through nanotechnology and biotechnology. Category:Neuroscience seems appropriate, as does Category:Speculative technology or something similar if we have such a category. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:46, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Antaeus. Anti-Cult terms and concepts is probably not a good category for the article. Then, the proposed category Category:Speculative technology sounds good. Thanks for your comment. I just saw it now. I'll remove the category again. Ben /_C 06:19, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Lakireddy Bali Reddy

By "pov and wrong", I meant that the article previously said that Reddy had been able to "keep all of his ill-gotten gains", or something along those lines. The DOJ indicated that he had been fined $2M. The old article also lowballed his prison sentence at 6 years instead of 8. jdb ❋ (talk) 18:37, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Right -- what I was trying to say in my hurried edit summary just before I ran for the train (I have to stop doing that) is that the paragraph you replaced did in fact contain POV statements and statements which the reference you also added showed to be factually wrong. However, those statements were only about half of the paragraph. The other statements were not noticeably POV, so I restored them, and what my edit summary was meant to convey was "these might have been removed in too much haste, or they might have been removed because they too were incorrect. I've restored it in case it was the former, but feel free to re-remove them if it was the latter." -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:01, 24 May 2005 (UTC)

Preston Lions

A bit too quick on the speedy trigger on this one; it had a long edit history, and a few edits back was the unvandalised version. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 19:25, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

D'oh. sorry. You've got me dead to rights on that one. I only saw it by following a link from some already-reverted vandalism, so when I saw it consisting mostly of juvenile abuse I thought it had been created by the vandal. Didn't occur to me it might not have been. sorry. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:34, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Barnstar of Diligence Award

Samantha Geimer

I've merged some of the stuff in Samantha Geimer into Roman Polanski#Statutory rape charge. Think that's enough? --ssd 04:19, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's honestly a surprising question. The usual intent of a merge is to put information that's in two articles and put it all in one article and convert the other to a redirect; one of the frequent cases where this is considered a desirable thing to do is when one of the article subjects really isn't notable except in connection with the other. Samantha Geimer is probably a very very nice person, but unless something's missing from her article, her only notability is through connection with Roman Polanski -- which is why I suggested a merge. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:11, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Monty Hall problem

Hi - A previous change I made to the Monty Hall problem article some time ago added a sentence with the critical assumptions in the first paragraph immediately before the question. Because of this addition, the words "the host knows what is behind each door" now appear twice in this paragraph. It is this redundancy I was trying to eliminate. The first occurrence of this phrase (the one I deleted) is in a parenthetical in a compound sentence. Deleting this occurrence seemed (to me) to simplify this sentence without changing the meaning, since the assumption that the host knows is still stated. Is there some reason it doesn't look redundant to you? Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:19, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Misreading on my part. Believe me, I looked through that entire paragraph for somewhere else where that prerequisite was mentioned, and I didn't see it. I can only think that somehow I was expecting the other mention to be the first mention, making the second mention redundant, and therefore missed that the remaining mention was the second mention. Sorry. -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:50, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, what do you think about nominating this article as a featured article? -- Rick Block (talk) 01:48, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

ADHD

Antaeus, as always your efforts are appreciated for their apparent sincerity. Your boldness in editing is admirable. However, you might encounter less resistance, your POV might be more effectively promoted, and you might generate less antagonism if your approach avoided what appears to be sarcastic overtones. Thanks again, though, for your diligent efforts. Ombudsman 14:45, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There wasn't any sarcasm at all in it. At this point there are far more medical professionals who accept the existence of ADHD than who do not. You've been clear about your opinion that ADHD is in fact an invented disease which does not exist, and the drug companies are responsible for somehow creating the general consensus that it does. How are you suggesting that they did this, if not by means of a conspiracy? -- Antaeus Feldspar 22:45, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

A more collegial tone would be appreciated, Antaeus. With regard to ADD, the 'symptoms' subjectively used to facilitate diagnoses are generally quite real, especially from the point of view of those who may inappropriately seek to enforce overly strict discipline. The groupthink (rather than 'conspiracy', which comes off as sarcastic) is likely to precipitate backlashes on several levels, including the spread of illicit drug use among those without an Rx, and vulnerabilities to substance abuse among those given an Rx. The focus on artificially controlling behavior draws attention away from equally serious symptoms related to overly compliant and deferential behavior (perhaps associated with hyperfocus and neoteny), which are routinely and selectively overlooked. The resulting discrimination tilts heavily against children whose only crime, often, is being slow to grow up. According to one report, half of patients given psychiatric diagnoses at a facility were later found to have underlying non-psychiatric medical conditions which likely contributed to their mental health issues. Psychiatric diagnoses can only be made without identification of any medical pathology, because there are no tests specific to mental illness. The primary problem with most ADD diagnoses is one of discrimination, more so than fabrication of diagnostic criteria. Such discrimination (biased in favor of the sycophant) likely fosters, and culturally ingrains, the Peter principle phenomenon. Ombudsman 08:21, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Oh, please, Om. Your efforts at manipulation are criminally transparent. When you think you can carrot, you hand out insincere barnstars. When you want to stick, you throw accusations like "parroting of proferred propaganda" and puff up your talk with all the twenty-dollar words you know, hoping that the time it takes people to figure out your point is time in which they won't notice that you haven't proven your point, only expressed it in big words and then claimed it to be fact. Don't talk to me about "collegial tone" when your own tone is an insincere attempt to manipulate people to your way. -- Antaeus Feldspar 11:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus, your diligence appears to be sincere, and worthy of a barnstar. Attending to content for a moment, it is the chemical imbalance theory that is most impoverished in terms of proof, something that seems to be lost on the expert worship crowd. The Wiki is a collaborative endeavor to expand, rather than obfuscate (using the smokescreens of orthodoxy) the collective knowledgebase. If your sincerity leads you to be disruptive, then your acerbic comments do not rise to the level of Wikipedian 'best practices'. Ombudsman 17:00, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

lots of edits, not an admin

Hi - I made a list of users who've been around long enough to have made lots of edits but aren't admins. If you're at all interested in becoming an admin, can you please add an '*' immediately before your name in this list? I've suggested folks nominating someone might want to puruse this list. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:17, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)

Hi and not so Hi

Well, it might be me. I feel really lonely and hated by the wiki community, what can I do? Frenchman113 22:58, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Anti-Psychiatry Activities

Hello, Antaeus, please help having a look on the activities of user AI - he is concentrating on inserting negative psychiatry articles. Uses expressions like "does not confront his past" and reacts pretty strong, as soon as critiziced). Irmgard - see at my user side as example. ;-)

(Sarcasm) Antaeus, thank you for helping with anti-psychiatry activities. --AI 02:00, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Content forking

Hi there! The reason was that I was cleaning out Category:Misplaced Pages proposals so that it might become a useful category (you'd be amazed how much unrelated issues were in there, or stuff that hadn't been edited for over a year...) From the current content of your article I figured it wouldn't be proposing anything, but if that's the direction you're heading please change it back. Sorry for the trouble. Btw you're probably aware of Misplaced Pages:POV fork? Possibly it should be merged into your article, because POV forks would be a subset of content forks. Yours, Radiant_>|< 08:14, Jun 19, 2005 (UTC)

No, I wasn't aware of it. It didn't exist at the time I created Misplaced Pages:Content forking, but it seems to cover a lot of the same territory, so merging of some kind should definitely be looked at. -- Antaeus Feldspar 13:55, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Prisoner link

Sorry about that. I just felt the anti-6 of 1 link was a violation of the Soapbox guideline, much as anti-Trek United links were removed from the Star Trek: Enterprise article earlier this year for the same reason. Personally I don't get what the big deal is about a fan club (this anti-6 of 1 thing destroyed the main Prisoner Yahoo Group). In the grand scheme of things who cares? I think it sets a dangerous precedent because we'd have to link every webpage that has an opposing viewpoint to any club, group, etc. otherwise listed. 23skidoo 15:30, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church

Thanks for the kind words; it's always nice to hear good things. -- Essjay · Talk 04:54, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

RfA thanks

Thanks for your support for my adminship. I am honored by your vote. Cheers, -Willmcw

Monty Hall problem

Hi - I'm trying to address a comment raised at WP:FAC about the Monty Hall problem article. The suggestion is to delete the explanation you originally added under this edit (effect of opening a door). Rather than delete it I agreed to find who added it and discuss it. Isn't the opening a door side of this analysis tantamount to an explanation of the original problem? It's not obvious to me what the comparison adds. If you could explain it to me, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. -- Rick Block (talk) July 2, 2005 21:54 (UTC)

Well, the key point (which, I'm afraid, did get lost in trying to make the analysis so complete that no one could misinterpret it) is that if the host doesn't open a door, the chance of winning by switching is the intuitive chance, 1/3: it must be the correct decision to switch (a 2/3 chance) and the player must pick the correct door to switch to (a 1/2 chance); 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3. The "a-ha" of how the host opening a door can raise the chance of winning above its intuitive level is the realization that when the host opens the door, he is eliminating the 1/2 chance that you might correctly decide to switch but choose the wrong door out of those that are left. -- Antaeus Feldspar 3 July 2005 19:41 (UTC)

Thanks. I get this. User:Wile E. Heresiarch just deleted the section. Do you think it's worth adding back at this point? I notice you haven't commented at WP:FAC. I haven't exhaustively examined the history, but I gather you actually did a lot of the work on this article. Do YOU think it should be a featured article in its current form? Thanks -- Rick Block (talk) July 3, 2005 19:47 (UTC)

I haven't been able to take a good exhaustive look at the article in some time, so I'll abstain on whether it's ready to be a FAC. As for adding the deleted section back in -- no, not in the form that I wrote it, which wound up far less clear than I wanted it to be. However, I think the central point may be worth explaining, in some form: Many people are blocked from seeing the solution because their intuition misguides them; they don't see how the probability for any door can rise above 1/N where N is the number of doors. They don't realize that the host, by opening a door, is actually removing something that lowered their chance. Whether someone can phrase that better than I can... -- Antaeus Feldspar 3 July 2005 19:57 (UTC)

Psychosurgery

Glad to have that relatively cleaned up. I still wonder if there is some way to really emphasise that both "psychosurgery" as a term and a practice is now more or less an historical thing. I don't know about other countries, but I'm pretty sure that no procedure related to a lobotomy/cingulotomy is performed in my country (New Zealand, although I think some may be done in Australia). Or am I degenerating into POV again?Limegreen 3 July 2005 00:28 (UTC)

I think it's probably possible to put that emphasis in in an NPOV fashion. You could point out that the practices collectively referred to as psychosurgery were all based on fairly crude assumptions about how the brain functions, assumptions which have now been discarded by science. (ever see those 19th century charts that showed the brain divided up into neatly delineated regions, each labelled with the area of thinking that brain section concerned itself with?) Any statistics you can find on the actual occurence of such surgeries would probably help support the contention that psychosurgery is primarily a thing of the past, too. -- Antaeus Feldspar 3 July 2005 22:00 (UTC)

RfC

You stated "there is no such 'Misplaced Pages alert' as AI would find it convenient to claim" in your contribution on 6 July 2005 16:10. . I meant Wikiquette alert, I am assuming you knew and just decided to play word games. Please check more carefully before you jump to conclusions. The Wikiquette alert was removed after today and and RfC has been filed: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Antaeus Feldspar. --AI 7 July 2005 03:59 (UTC)

As usual, you assume wrongly. I don't make it a practice (as you clearly do) of filing Wikiquette alerts, and you didn't ever notify me that one had been filed; how exactly was I supposed to know that you were making your tiresome allegations behind my back in that particular corner? Of course, if you had actually called it by its correct name, then it would have been less effective for dead agenting purposes, since everyone would be able to see that this "Misplaced Pages alert" of which you thought everyone should be aware was simply just you finding another place to kvetch. -- Antaeus Feldspar 7 July 2005 04:15 (UTC)

"As usual, you assume wrongly" How else are you right? --AI 19:56, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Express yourself comprehensibly and I might reply. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, How else are you right? --AI 00:28, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Your query is still lacking in communicative power. I can only make sense of it if I interpret it as a fairly cheap attempt on your part to change the topic from your incorrect and uncharitable assumption that everyone should know what you mean by "Misplaced Pages alert" and that anyone who say they don't have any idea what you're talking about is lying. To give you the benefit of the doubt, I will say instead that I still can make no sense whatever out of what you're saying. -- Antaeus Feldspar 00:59, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Alright, and how else are you right? --AI 01:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Is the purpose of this "discussion" to annoy me? That's the only thing it's accomplishing, and accordingly, any attempts to continue it will be reverted unread. The purpose of my having a talk page is not for you to badger me in an attempt to divert attention from your own failings. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:20, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. --AI 01:40, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus, your RfC was deleted only because I am new to the RfC process and didn't get it certified in time. --AI 01:40, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Please start the RfC again. I am with you. --Zappaz 03:05, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Antaeus, what is annoying is your inexplained reverts and your bad faith and your rhetoric and your inability to carry on a logical argument in opposition to people who know what they are talking about. This is not a personal attack, this is the beginning of a complaint. --AI 02:53, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Rape

"Victims and survivors of rape, and their allies, may find this type of usage pejorative and deeply offensive". So, ... I'm an enemy of the raped because I don't find the use offensive? :) I really think that text needs improvment, as it stands it sounds like someone on a soapbox... There is a fine line between reporting on a view that exists, and taking up the flag ourselves... as a casual reader of the article I felt we crossed that line in the text where we gave the arguments as to why the non sexual uses were okay. I thought my alterations were an improvment, but I can see why you disagreed. Can you suggest some text that sounds a little less soapboxy? Gmaxwell 7 July 2005 12:03 (UTC)

The word in the sentence was "may", which makes it correct. If it had been "should", I would have challenged it as a value judgement; if there had been no qualifier such as "may", I would have challenged it as unfairly categorizing all those who do not share that POV as not survivors or allies. If it had even said "most" survivors and allies, I probably would have challenged it as making an unproven statement as to how "most" feel. But since it was phrased as a non-endorsing statement of how a significant number of people do in fact view that use of the language, I didn't think it was appropriate to remove it. You'll notice that I also restored the reasons why others see nothing wrong with such metaphorical usage.

As for making it "less soapboxy", well, I'll have to admit that I look at it and see more a plain statement of what people believe, than a line-crossing advocacy of either side. If you have an alternate phrasing to suggest, however, please bring it up for consideration. -- Antaeus Feldspar 7 July 2005 22:57 (UTC)

By the way... marking an edit as "minor" has a specific meaning on Misplaced Pages that you should be careful about. a "minor edit", in the Misplaced Pages sense, is one that is so minor in its effect on the meaning and content that no one could reasonably object to it. Note that the key criteria is the effect on the meaning and content, not the amount of editing: if all you are doing is fixing misspelled words, you could fix 500 of them and it would still be a minor edit. An edit that changes the meaning and content, however, is not a minor edit. If you only change one word, but it alters a phrase so that someone who agreed with it in its previous form now disagrees, it's not a minor edit. When it doubt, don't mark it as minor. -- Antaeus Feldspar 7 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)

I marked it as a minor edit by mistake, as I also made several other edits in the article after the text I removed... I'd forgotten that I hadn't submitted the earlier change. If you look at my contribution history you can see that it is quite infrequent that I mark anything as minor, and I must admit that I am a little put off by your lecture.

The word 'may' doesn't really matter in this case as the sentence implies that such people might but others will not. Can you provide a citation that shows that other people do not think that? Can you even tell me what "allies" of the raped are? I'm sorry but the whole sentence is rubbish.

As for suggesting alternative phrasing, I already did that and you reverted my changes without discussion. The text after my modification stated both sides without including a 70 word repetitive discussion, for example "It is argued by some that this usage is demeaning or disempowering of victims and survivors of real sexual rape" and "Victims and survivors of rape, and their allies, may find this type of usage pejorative and deeply offensive, since it normalizes the term "rape" to cover". Does it really need to say the same thing twice? Do we have to include several examples of metaphor when we already wikilink Dysphemism and metaphorical. Looking at the history of the article I see that you routinely revert changes made by other casual editors, perhaps we should find a third party who is less protective of the article to help? Gmaxwell 8 July 2005 03:18 (UTC)

Sorry that you think you're being harshly treated when your removal of text is reverted. Perhaps you should raise the issue on the talk page of why you think that passage of text is superfluous. If there's a consensus, I'll go along with it. -- Antaeus Feldspar 8 July 2005 03:23 (UTC)

ann coulter

poll you might want to check out

Keith Henson

Lets take a closer scrutiny of your actions. You revert my changes which basically removed my mention of Keith's bomb expertise and restored the link to Arnie Lerma's POV. Why didn't you explain those changes as you claim in the history comment: for reasons explained on talk page. You are not acting in good faith. --AI 02:44, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

That really is your answer to everything, isn't it? "Let's take a closer scrutiny of your actions. Let's divert the attention away from my repeated harassment of you. Let's divert the attention away from my citing a policy in order to justify my removing category tags from articles that I don't want noticed and then completely ignoring the policy when it's pointed out that the policy actually calls for those tags to be there. Let's divert the attention away from my attempting for a third time to speedy-delete an article that I ought to know by now is not a correct candidate for speedy deletion. Let's ignore all those things I am doing wrong and focus on anything you did wrong, like forgetting to sign a single post on a talk page." Kind of puts the lie to all the blathering about Scientology teaching the importance of taking responsibility, doesn't it? -- Antaeus Feldspar 02:58, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Trolling?

I can see that you are following my edits... I do not mind you fix my grammar, but I please note that sometimes I almost feel like turning back to see who is following me. Eery feeling indeed. Why don't you start new articles and leave me alone for a while? Thanks. --Zappaz 03:02, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Ah, yes, the famous "You're editing the same articles that I edit, therefore you must be stalking me" accusation. You do realize, though, that others watching you throw such allegations can see the egotism in it? "He could not possibly be someone who shares the same interests as I do and therefore edits the same articles! He must be stalking me! Because, you see, I am so important that he could not be acting independently!" Too bad it's a figment of your imagination. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:09, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, right. ---Zappaz 03:15, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Zappaz? Look at the history of this talk page. Now look at how many messages I've left on your talk page, or on AI's. You're gonna have a fun time trying to convince anyone that it's me obsessed with you. -- Antaeus Feldspar 03:19, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Obsessed ... with you... God forbid! what an awful thought! Pulezze, Antaeus. You need to take a walk in the park, breath some fresh air, and take it e-a-s-i-e-r. A bit of humor will also go long ways. :) --Zappaz 03:31, 16 July 2005 (UTC)