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For the most recent postings, through Jan. 22, 2007, please see Archive 7 (at right).

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Tenebrae, I'm adding a FUR to this image, but it doesn't currenly appear on any article. If you want it to be ultimately kept, you might want to attach it to some appropriate article. 207.229.140.148 (talk) 23:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you think of something before Valentines Day, you can keep it - otherwise looks like it's gone.  :) 207.229.140.148 (talk) 06:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Disputed fair use rationale for Image:Strangeadventures207.jpg

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Technically, but...

While the cover may say "The Avengers", it is "Avengers" in every other article as we go with the basic term. There's also no "The Mighty", "Invincible" or "Incredible" to be found anywhere - just the core title.

Asgardian (talk) 02:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

What does the indicia say? Doczilla (talk) 02:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

For what? Misplaced Pages? My point is the horse has bolted on this one.

Asgardian (talk) 02:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

For vol. 1? "The Avengers". And we went over this before with Asgardian, cites and refs should be the indicia title for the publication, not fan=geek shorthand.

And just because it's wrong in other articles isn't license to keep on doing it wrong, or pushing to revert to the wrong format. - J Greb (talk) 03:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember our going over this before. I remember pulling out some old issues and looking at the indicia, now that you mention it. Doczilla (talk) 03:04, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

And no one picked this up before now? In 2 + years? Perhaps JGreb would like to go back and correct all the articles with "geek shorthand"? He will be busy.

Asgardian (talk) 03:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I thought you were in on those discussions. Doczilla (talk) 03:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I recall the discussion from about two months ago, but nothing concrete was ratified. I don't mind adding a tidbit to the title...but there's a lot to change if this is the case.

Asgardian (talk) 03:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm talking about something from much further back than that. I don't know the discussion of 2 months ago. Doczilla (talk) 03:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

While a postal indicia and a trademarked logo are valid in different ways, the least confusing thing for a general-audience reader is to use the trademarked logo that is highly visible on the cover and on the cover illustrations. But even if we don't want to use the trademarked logo (The Uncanny X-Men, The Incredible Hulk), a distinction can still be made between an adjective and a simple definite article ("The").--Tenebrae (talk) 04:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

hi

hi i was wondering if you could help me put the religions of the comic book characters in their articles. You can find a list of catholic characters here.

http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/Invisible_Kid_II.html

and can i get you to help with the "pinata" article? i would myself but im a n00b.

and also can be your apprentice? im a n00b tell me what to do lol.Wikid00d88 (talk) 20:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi

Sorry, missed part of your message on my talk page the other day. I hope everything works out okay on the personal front. All the best, Hiding T 11:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:IrishMcCalla2.jpg

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New section

I received your most recent comment and wish to respond and hope that you will be fair in re-assessing my father's Misplaced Pages page.

There are four quotes on the page, three of which contain negative comments. The fourth quote really has nothing to do with Vince Colletta.

1)(From Pierre Comtois) Despite the serendipity of the two men's styles, Colletta would later be criticized, with good reason, for compromising Kirby's artistic vision by eliminating much of the detail that the artist put into his work". <<Pierre Comtois is a Fanzine writer, not an artist or a professional in the comic book business. His negative assessment of Vince Colletta's style is only an opinion and can't seriously be considered for inclusion in a Misplaced Pages page.>>

2)(From Mark Evanier)Back when he was working for Marvel, Ditko said he'd pick up the latest issues in the office and always check the credits before taking the comics home. If he found Colletta's name — especially as Kirby's embellisher — he would make a point of putting the comic back, or even in a wastebasket. And he'd make sure Stan saw what he was doing and knew the reason why".<<Again, hearsay that reflects negatively on Vince Colletta and serves no purpose whatsoever. It is a supposed quote from artist Steve Ditko-how is that verifiable?>>

3)(From Len Wein)Len Wein, on what he enjoyed most about working on Luke Cage: "Getting to work with the wonderful George Tuska, before Vinnie Colletta got his hands on the pencils and ruined them". <<Why does this appear on Vince Colletta's Misplaced Pages page instead of George Tuska's Misplaced Pages page? Again, an unneccesary negative reflection on Vince Colletta. You wrote that the Len Wein quote is verifiable, I agree but it is just his opinion and you know what they say about opinions...-this s**t does not belong on Misplaced Pages.>>

4)(From Jim Shooter) <<This belongs on Frank Miller's Misplaced Pages page if anywhere. Although it is a positive reflection on Vinnie Colletta, it is basically irrelevant. I want to add this as it relates to my criticisms in general-Your inclusion of the above negative comments is akin to placing the Jim Shooter quote on the Joe Orlando page (it is not).>>

How did these quotes end up on Vince Colletta's Misplaced Pages page, anyway? Did you dig them up or were they contributed by the people named above? If they were contributed by Mssrs. Evanier and Wein, there is certainly cause to think that a vendetta of some sort is involved.

You wrote: "If you can find verifiable quotes, particularly from notable cartoonists, then you can include them with appropriate references, and provided that you do not put too much weight on one point of view." It appears that too much weight has been put on one (negative) point of view. You earlier wrote that the quotes were balanced, something about 2 quotes positive, 2 quotes negative and 1 quote neutral-I hope that I have demonstrated that this is certainly not the case.

I have viewed most of the Misplaced Pages pages you worked on and have found nothing in any of them that shows as much negativity as you have allowed to appear on the Vince Colletta Misplaced Pages page.

Finally, please forgive my previous attempts at editing and correspondence, I will try to be more judicious in my use of proper form in the future.

Franklin222 (talk) 13:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin222Franklin222 (talk) 13:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Image:John_Buscema_1975.jpg

I have tagged Image:John_Buscema_1975.jpg as {{no rationale}}, because it does not provide a fair use rationale. If you believe the image to be acceptable for fair use according to Misplaced Pages policy, please provide a rationale explaining as much, in accordance with the fair use rationale guideline, on the image description page. Some examples can be found at Misplaced Pages:Use rationale examples. Please also consider using {{non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags/Non-free. Thank you. Rettetast (talk) 20:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Bucky?

Well, I last edited that one in October... :) But I see what's going on. I don't really have much of an opinion on that issue. Probably the classic look is the better pick for the infobox, but I'll see what develops on your discussion before I toss my hat in on that one. BOZ (talk) 01:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Vince Colletta

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I guess that my main objection continues to be the third-hand reporting (Steve Ditko's supposed comments) that appear; and the personal nature of the comments that add nothing to the biography whatsoever. I will say this about Mr. Ditko and Mr. Evanier-Mr. Ditko had a problem with Daredevil being taken from him after the first issue when it was given to Kirby/Colletta and, although Vinnie had nothing to do with that decision, there was some resentment toward him from Mr. Ditko. To be very candid, Vince didn't identify with one super hero or book in particular as some artists did, he was just interested in working. In any event, while it is conceivable to me that Mr. Ditko said what was quoted by Mr. Evanier, why does it belong in Misplaced Pages? Mr. Evanier is or was a fringe player in the comic book scene. He was a big fan of Jack Kirby. Mr. Kirby loved my dad's inking of his work but he did take issue when Vince would either change or erase some of his pencils, mostly backgrounds. Mr. Evanier, in his adulation of Mr. Kirby, has been quoted often as being offended by my dad's audacity. I commented a little bit about those backgrounds in a blog-http://colletta.blogspot.com/-and his being allowed to place (supposed) negative comments on Vince's Misplaced Pages page serves no purpose.

As for Len Wein, his opinion is that Vince ruined George Tuska's pencils. Your response shows me that, when it comes to comic art, you know your stuff, and you have to agree that Mr. Wein's comments are utter nonsense. That notwithstanding, I continue to feel that Mr. Wein's comments are nothing more than a personal opinion and not worthy of being included in a Misplaced Pages page.

To me, Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and a darn good one. I have never read an encyclopedia where people's personal opinions were part of the content.

Thanks again for your response and best of luck in the future.

Franklin222 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 20:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Vince Colletta

I also want to point out that Pierrre Comtois' description of Vince Colletta's inks over Jack Kirby's pencils, if quoted in its entirety, paints a completely different picture than just the segment you chose to include; especially the last part.

"But the most important thing that separates this story from the series' regular run was the inking over Kirby of Vince Colletta. Although Colletta had been assigned to work over Kirby's pencils for Tales of Asgard almost since its beginning, up to now, he'd not yet contributed to the regular Thor strip. This story here, more than any other, probably cemented him in Lee's mind as the perfect inker to take over the regular Thor feature from the soon-to-depart Chic Stone. Sure, his work on Tales of Asgard had given those stories the epic, antique feel they demanded, but it was here, for the first time, that Colletta's hair-thin, detailed inking style (that seemed devoid of large areas of black, used to give figures weight and heft but that was also an artistic concept yet to be fully explored by the time of the Middle Ages, an era whose crude woodcuts most reflected the art style needed by the Thor strip) captured the elusive quality of otherworldly drama that the strip would increasingly demand as Lee and Kirby took it away from the everyday world of super-villains to a mythic plane where the forces of evil were on a far more gargantuan scale. Despite the serendipity of the two men's styles, Colletta would later be criticized, with good reason, for compromising Kirby's artistic vision by eliminating much of the detail that the artist put into his work. Be that as it may, what Colletta chose to keep, he rendered in such a way that showed off aspects of Kirby's art that no inker before or since has ever been able to reproduce. In this issue's story for example, where Kirby has chosen to lay it out in big, quarter page panels, Colletta outlines the bulky figures of Thor and Hercules in thin, scratchy lines that reflect more accurately the original look of the penciled art than heavier blacks would have done."

Selective editing often skews a writers intended meaning. The last part of Mr. Comtois' description obviously shows that he is complimenting Mr. Colletta's work, where you chose to chop Mr. Comtois' description makes it seem derogatory.

Regards,,

Franklin222 (talk) 21:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 21:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Vince Colletta

You know, that small addition makes so much of a difference. Probably not enough to make my youngest sister, Cynthia stop feeling so bad because of the other stuff, but better for sure.

Is the following quote acceptable for publication in Vince Colletta's Misplaced Pages page? It is from http://www.samcci.comics.org/ and is a quote from Nick Simon. . "Vince Colletta was a talented penciler and one of the mainstays of the Atlas/Marvel romance titles of the 1950's. In the 1960's he made his name all over again as an inker, principally over Jack Kirby. For me, the Kirby/Colletta version of Thor is the definitive one."

Another question: I could probably find more complimentary stuff about Vinnie but Misplaced Pages pages don't go on forever-should I send you more or is this quite enough?

Thanks for your consideration.

Franklin222 (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Vince Colletta

Hi,

Just another comment I came across from somone in the business. I copied it in its entirety but put the part that I feel is pertinent in bold. It is from: http://www.comicbookconventions.com/forum/index.php?topic=593.msg776#msg776

chris Guest

  Re: It has begun! The MegaCon Checklist is here! 

« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2002, 03:19 PM »

Hi Austin...

Yeah, Brian DOES do a great job with that checklist every year...where he gets the time, I don't know.

And of course, everyone ELSE knows that inkers aren't tracers. It's a talant and an art in itself....we all know what a Vince Colletta can do to a Neal Adams pencils as opposed to a Dick Giordano. As I mentioned elsewhere I used to assist several inkers in my day,working for MURPHY ANDERSON, as well as assisting Dave Hunt and Joe Sinnott. I know how hard it is to make a bad penciler look good, or to make a great penciller keep looking great. So bravo to you and all the other comic professionals out there...I wish more of you would stop by this board and say hi.

See you at Megacon.

Chris Padovano

Thanks again for letting me post to you and I am sure there will be more.

PS: I wrote to someone who supposedly is in contact with George Tuska. I asked Mr. Tuska for his thoughts on Len Wein's quote. I will let you know what he says (good or bad)if and when he writes back.

Franklin222 (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 16:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

PPS: Regarding Do not copy text from other websites without a GFDL-compatible license. I don't know if copying the entry above violates this rule. You will let me know.

Howard the Duck

Looks like we have a problem, there. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 23:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

RfC

Hey folks,

I'd like to get some community feedback on the comparative merits of the current version of the Buscema article and this longer version http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=John_Buscema&oldid=181851662 - but to avoid any misunderstanding I asked - jc37 to request and moderate the RfC, which he's graciously agreed to do so on condition that User:Tenebrae and User:Hiding agree with this. Feedback on this would be appreciated.

Cheers,

--Skyelarke (talk)

cc. User:Hiding, User:Jc37 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyelarke (talk • contribs) 01:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

CC of reply at User talk:Skyelarke:

I think it might be best if Skyelarke and I abide by the spirit of the Arbitration decision, and remain uninvolved in the John Buscema article for the duration of the ruling. I'm not sure why there's any rush, given the deadline. --Tenebrae (talk) 01:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is something that shouldn't be rushed, and the proposal has been on the table for over a month now. And I agree with the no deadline essay, although I think that waiting two more months to resolve a specific content question is a little too long; moreover, I think that the editing ban is good a safeguard to insure that no misundertandings that might lead to edit warring occur - Also, the arbitration decision does state that 'they are welcome to edit the talk page', (which is where the RfC would occur) as long as they don't engage in 'any form of disruptive editing, edit-warring, or editing against an established consensus.' Any thoughts?

--Skyelarke

cc. User:Hiding, User:Jc37 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skyelarke (talk • contribs) 17:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

CC of reply at User talk:Skyelarke:

My gut feeling is it might be better if both of us took some time off from the article, and the Arbitration's proscription is as good as any. There's no reason either of us should be obsessive. --Tenebrae (talk) 17:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: Vinnie Colletta

Hi,

Haven't heard from you since my last couple of contacts. Just incase you haven't read it before, please take a look, from Eddie Campbell. http://eddiecampbell.blogspot.com/2007/05/vincent-colletta-my-favourite-1960s.html

I also want to let you know that when you Google "Vinnie Colletta", as some might do, you get that crappy Len Wein comment first-right in the description line. Very sad...

Regards,

Franklin222 (talk) 23:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 23:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free media (Image:StrangeTales79.jpg)

Thanks for uploading Image:StrangeTales79.jpg. The media description page currently specifies that it is non-free and may only be used on Misplaced Pages under a claim of fair use. However, it is currently orphaned, meaning that it is not used in any articles on Misplaced Pages. If the media was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that media for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Misplaced Pages (see our policy for non-free media).

If you have uploaded other unlicensed media, please check whether they're used in any articles or not. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that all non-free media not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 02:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Vince Colletta

Hi again and thanks again,

Regarding the Google search, you have to Google Vinnie Colletta, not Vince Colletta.

Just one more, very important piece to refute the alleged comments attributed to Jack Kirby by Mark Evanier. They are from an well-known artist, Scott Koblish, and they quote another famous artist, John Romita, Jr. They appear in http://www.immonen.ca/news/archives/454 which you will absolutely love reading when you have the time to do so. Mr. Koblish responds to a comment from an interviewer.

Scott Koblish May 14, 2007 “So it’s no wonder that Kirby and others evidenced disdain for Colletta, his personality aside; he changed stuff!”

"That’s not true for Jack- Jack never evidenced any disdain for Vinnie’s stuff. John Romita Sr. used to tell me that Jack Kirby preferred Vinnie’s inks and would ask for him to work on projects togther. Vinnie didn’t get a bad rep until the fans started taking editorial positions in the 80’s. Ditto for Don Heck. Neither one got a bad rep until they were either dead or replaced. It’s easier to ruin the reputation of a dead man."

Enough said about this, I hope that it can be used in place of, or next to, Evanier's quote. Koblish and Romita are both artists while Evanier is not.

Finally, I have obtained George Tuska's home address from one of his friends and will write a letter to him tomorrow. As promised, I will let you know what Mr. Tuska says about Vinnie's inking of his work in the event that I hear from him and, to be totally fair, if Mr. Tuska does say something negative about my dad's inking, I will give you my wholehearted permission to use it, especially in place of Wein's comment.

Regards,

Franklin222 (talk) 07:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 07:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Vince Colletta

Hi,

Here is what I see when I Google Vinnie Colletta.

    Advanced Search
 Preferences 
Web  Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 730 for vinnie colletta. (0.27 seconds)  

Vince Colletta - Misplaced Pages, the 💕Len Wein, on what he enjoyed most about working on Luke Cage: "Getting to work with the wonderful George Tuska, before Vinnie Colletta got his hands on the ... en.wikipedia.org/Vince_Colletta - 36k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Vinnie Colletta (comics) - Comicvine, the Comic book Encylopedia ...Vinnie Colletta. This page describes a comicbook creator. Comic Vine is User Powered ... This page covers the comicbook creator Vinnie Colletta . ... www.comicvine.com/vinnie-colletta/30961/ - 25k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

Colleta's list of missing figures.... - Page 2 - Comic Book ...Vinnie Colletta was the art director at DC Comics and Jack Kirby had no say in who did or did not ink his pencils. As far as Vinnie's assistants, ... forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?p=6293586 - 54k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

THE BEAT » Blog Archive » The wit and wisdom of Vinnie CollettaVinnie Colletta is a legendary name in comic book circles — legendary because he could be one of the worst inkers in the biz, but kept getting work becuase ... pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/04/30/the-wit-and-wisdom-of-vinnie-colletta/ - 34k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

The Fate of the Artist: Vincent Colletta, my favourite 1960s "Inker""Vinnie Colletta is a legendary name in comic book circles — legendary ... "Vinnie Colletta. Much has been written about Vinnie in the years since his ... eddiecampbell.blogspot.com/2007/05/vincent-colletta-my-favourite-1960s.html - 67k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

More in a moment but the Len Wein comment is right there in the forefront of the first Google result.

Franklin222 (talk) 15:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 15:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Vinnie Colletta

Good morning,

I hope that you had occasion to do that Google search on Vinnie Colletta and found Len Wein's comment displayed so prominently. Sad, like I said before, and not, in any way, something that someone looking up information on "Vinnie Colletta" should see displayed first and foremost.

With regard to Mr. Koblish's comments, I was under the impression that a quote from an established professional in the comic book field, such as Mr. Koblish is, would be acceptable material regardless of where it was published. That goes double for the quote by John Romita, Sr. That prompts the question: Where was Mr. Wein's comment published?

I am happy to know that you enjoyed the fact that I found George Tuska. His friend, artist Dewey Cassell wrote to me and here is his email to me in part:

I know they would love to hear from you. Their 60th wedding anniversary is this Friday. Dorothy just had a heart valve replacement a little over a week ago, but she is home and recovering well. Because of George's hearing difficulties, he doesn't talk on the phone, but Dorothy is glad to pass on messages to him. He will be 92 in April and he still does commissions.

I wrote a book about George that was published in 2005. If you would like a copy, just send me your address and I will mail you one. (I think I have one that George autographed.)

I am a big fan of your father's work as well. I love the World's Greatest Superheroes newspaper strip. I think George and your father made a great team. I have the original art from several of the strips. (I am pitching a book to DC about the strip.)

I would love to interview you sometime, if you are willing. I write articles for comics-related magazines like BACK ISSUE, Rough Stuff, and Alter Ego. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for getting in touch with me. And please do contact George and Dorothy.

Dewey Cassell

Thanks again for the great correspondence, Tenebrae. This has been a lot of fun and I will certainly look into creating a web site featuring my father sometime soon.

Franklin222 (talk) 15:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)Franklin CollettaFranklin222 (talk) 15:43, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Biography section

No, I wasn't aware that the comics club had called for a superfluous "Biography" header, and your application of it to Dave Sim demonstrates a problem with it. Other than the housekeeping bits, the whole article is biography. How are Sim's fights with TCJ, his conversion, and what he's been doing with his life since Cerebus not part of his biography? - JasonAQuest (talk) 20:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't presumptuously "thank" me for "understanding" a standard which I find shortsighted and ideosyncratic. That's incredibly condescending. Even though you say that "we" (I assume this means you and the other WikiProject Comics members) drafted an example outline for comics creators, those articles are first and foremost biographies, not comics articles, and the standards for biographical articles in Misplaced Pages as a whole apply. If you look around Misplaced Pages, you'll find a wealth of biographical articles that don't clutter themselves up with a "biography" header, and there's a reason for that. Your "exemplar" seems to have been drafted on the assumption that a person's "biography" is something separate from their professional work, and Dave Sim is a perfect demonstration of where this assumption breaks down. Even if there is information in an article about a person that is not strictly biographical (e.g. Awards), it is quite common that the majority of it will be. Maybe you're too stuck thinking of comics articles in terms of character articles, where their so-called biographies are just one aspect of the subject, but for a person that's simply not the case, at least not as a rule. - JasonAQuest (talk) 21:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)