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Religion: Left Hand Path B‑class

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Tamarkin article verification letter

The article that appears on the Internet (http://abusearticles.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/investigative-issues-in-ritual-abuse-cases-part-1-and-2-1994) is an exact replication of the print editions published in the July/August and September/October 1994 editions of Treating Abuse Today.

Pamela Perskin Noblitt Managing Editor Treating Abuse TodayAbuse truth (talk) 19:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

from http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:V

All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged should be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question.

I have provided an inline citation. And I have cited it clearly so all text can be found. I have even shown editors a letter verifying that it is the actual article. I see no reason for a verification tag.Abuse truth (talk) 04:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter. What you're saying has no bearing on anything and I'm not going to try and disabuse you of the notion. Instead, I'll present a letter that I received from Steven Hawking:

Everything you say about physics on Misplaced Pages is entirely correct and people should believe you.

Steven Hawking, Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, Cambridge University

<eleland/talkedits> 05:38, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

There was no need for AT to get a letter verifying that the online version of the paper is the same as the one that appeared in print. The question is whether Treating Abuse Today is a reliable source for this article. I would say clearly not. It was not a peer-reviewed academic journal. If it were reliable then it could be cited without any need for online access. But I would have to see a very good case made for its reliability. In another neck of the woods we are discussing the status of academic journals founded by Max Planck and Albert Einstein. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

some SRA court cases info moved from another page

Hello, I'm not familiar with this page, so I am adding information here on the talk page instead of to the main article.

This text came from the page about False allegation of child sexual abuse. The topic of that page focuses on questions of individual child abuse, usually within families, and does not address group or ritual abuse. So the text about the court cases listed below, which seem to have valid information, don't belong on that page. They might be good to add to this article, or they could make up a new article on "False allegations of organized ritual abuse".

So, I'm posting that text here for editors on this page to decide if it's useful and where best to place it. I'll sign here; the rest of the info below is text I did not write, that came from the other article. You are welcome to use it or not, as you prefer. (The references are included in the wikitext - they won't show up here on the talk page, but they are in the text and will appear if placed on a page with a footnote section)... --Jack-A-Roe (talk) 06:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Satanist's Standpoint

surely there should be a mention of the fact that the 9th satanic rule of the earth is "do not harm little children" and the thenth "Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food." i am not saying that there is no such thing as SRA but there should be a mention of how the founder of the church of satan himself says that these acts should not be carried out -ross616- (talk) 00:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Please see WP:RS. Also complicating this matter is the fact that the page is about 'satanic ritual abuse', which is very loosely interpreted to mean 'any abuse of any sort that may take place which in some way mentions Satan or rituals in the news story'. It's been historically difficult for anyone to prove the existence or lack thereof of organized satanists who abuse children, whatever their motive or scale. If the Church of Satan's official position is such, and can be sourced, it could be included. WLU (talk) 20:54, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Eleven.html 66.220.110.83 (talk) 21:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm... I kinda like including this in the page - seeing as the connection to Satanism is obvious, a single line (possibly even in the lead) could be good. What do others think of:

Satanic ritual abuse is unrelated to the official Church of Satan, which forbids causing harm to children.

It's pretty explicit, this could be linked internally as well, via Church_of_Satan#The_Eleven_Satanic_Rules_of_the_Earth. WLU (talk) 17:04, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Regards the posting in the lead, I think this deserves to be there, becuase when people think of Satanism, the COS, is the official body they're going to think of. If they declaim abuse of children and it's in their 'mission statement' or whatever you want to call it, that's important. WLU (talk) 14:35, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with putting it in the lead. I am unsure if most people know what COS is. It also appears to give the phrase undue weight. The statement itself does not seem to be verifiable in terms of whether the group actually practices this or not. BTW, this phrase is also from the same page: "4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." Abuse truth (talk) 04:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If people are unsure, there's a wikilink. Satanism, satanic ritual abuse, church of satan, methinks the connections are pretty easy to make (i.e. the word satan being in all of them), and should be pretty prominent. Though perhaps not the lead. WLU (talk) 19:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Flags

the article is so much better than it was 3 or six months ago, so congrats people. even if its contentious process it is producing good work 66.220.110.83 (talk) 21:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Severe NPOV problems

This article makes it appear that the view the Satanic ritual abuse does not exist as a broad phenomena is the minority view. On the contrary, it is far and away the majority view. The sourcing of this article also needs a good housecleaning and verification as well. Vassyana (talk) 20:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead, but the problem is most of the 'official' and big names haven't really weighed in on the issue. We've got Geraldo, religious tolerance, and Lanning saying it's bunk, but none are strongly reliable sources; since there's a dearth of serious attention, there's not much to cite regards SRA being bunk. The long center of the article that cites basically every news article that mentions any sort of abuse that is on some way connected to ritualistic elements, no matter how tenuously, doesn't help either, but I'm not sure how to address it. I'd rather just take them out barring the extremely high profile cases (most of which have {{main}}s anyway). If you can find sources on SRA being bunk, and reliable, that'd really help the page. WLU (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

One would have to prove that SRA's alleged nonexistence is the majority view. And the court cases basically destroy the nonexistence theory. IMO, reliably-sourced cases need to stay on the page. Then we can cite the sources' descriptions of their veracity, if available. Abuse truth (talk) 04:46, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

But also for consideration is that it's a lengthy page, and much of that length is news reports. It's the rare wikipedia page that reports every single time the item appears in the news - even for, say, rare medical conditions, there's not a listing of Childhood disintegrative disorder cases, even though from my knowledge there's less than 30 patients. It'd also be nice if we could distinguish for the casual reader, the difference between 'this is an organized satanic cult who regularly kidnaps/molests/eats/kills little children' and 'this is some guy who happened to shout out 'Lucifer' while he (and not a coven) kidnaped/molested/ate/killed little children'. I don't think it's possible, at least not in all cases. Also a consideration is that many of the cases are to print news articles from the 80's and 90's - hard to verify, hard to follow-up, just generally problematic. I've removed from the US section the entries that were 'singles' - just one news article, in print with no weblink, that discussed a single case. WLU (talk) 14:32, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the long list of news reports is a clear violation of WP:UNDUE. I also think that Lanning's views do deserve more weight — he was one of the FBI's top experts on the subject of sexual abuse, and has been cited extensively in the JSTOR academic articles I found on the subject. *** Crotalus *** 21:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is a lengthy page. Provided there is prior discussion (consensus) to the edits, I see no problem with editing all parts of the page down proportionally. I strongly disagree with deleting large portions of the page with no discussion, especially only those that back up the existence of SRA. As far as Lanning goes, IMO he is an extremely biased source that doesn't back his arguments up with data.

I have restored all of the original deletions, pending further discussion. I will discuss my edits. I moved the COS section to the skeptics section. It looked odd and inappropriate in the header. I am unsure if it even belongs on the page, since it isn't research.

I have attempted to soften some of the more recent changes to make them less POV. One is on the MR case. I have also restored the "The existence of SRA" sentence to its previous one, to make it more accurate to the sources.

I have restored all of the legal cases from news sources as per above, pending further discussion. Abuse truth (talk) 04:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

This is silly. The Conspiracy theory article doesn't contain a list of every news story about the local district attorney convicting someone of conspiracy to do something or other. Because that's not what the term means. Conspiracy theory is widely understood to refer to crackpot fringe nonsense, not to the verifiable claims that sometimes small groups of criminals agree to commit criminal activity. Satanic ritual abuse is similar — the term overwhelmingly refers to the moral panic of the 1980s when credulous talk-show hosts were claiming that thousands of people were being murdered annually by giant intergenerational cults, babies were bred for sacrifice, and so forth. The fact that a tiny handful of actual criminals have used satanic trappings (which may very well have been inspired by the 1980s myths) is irrelevant here. Also irrelevant is your own personal opinion that Lanning is "an extremely biased source" — what matters is that he was an expert in his field, has been extensively cited in academic papers, and his report is generally considered in both the criminology and sociology fields to be the definitive debunking of the ritual abuse myth. *** Crotalus *** 05:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Lanning does appear to be a reliable source, cited by almost every single document I've seen that discusses SRA. As I've discussed before (this section, pretty far down) I think that Lanning's opinion is worth noting. I'll paste my opinion so people don't have to go digging:

Lanning provides the investigator's perspective. Considering the amount it's cited and his position (and his work in related areas , , , , , , (not all are him, but many are), (note the words perhaps the most recognized law enforcement expert in the field of Child Sexual Victimization for the past 20 years has been SSA Ken Lanning, he's got credibility from the FBI), ), I think there might sufficient sources to establish him as notable for his own wikipedia page, let alone qualify for an external link.

I would be very happy to cite him more on the page. So far this is two for, one against Lanning being a reliable source. However, wikipedia is not a democracy, so let's discuss.

Is Lanning and his report a reliable source?

Yes

Here are some reasons why I think Lanning is a reliable source - WLU (talk) 17:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• Lanning is cited many, many times, in many journal articles and other extremely reliable sources, including government documents and scholarly books.
• Lanning is an ex-FBI agent, who has spent much of his career involved with child abuse, abduction and molestation.
• Lanning has written books on the subject, which are hosted by major US organizations, related to his areas of expertise.
• Lanning has published in the FBI's professional journal, on child abduction
• Lanning has published in scholarly journals on the subject (how I want a full-text version)
• Lanning has provided testimony to congress no the issue of child pornography

No

• Lanning's article is not peer-reviewed. From wp:rs "The material has been thoroughly vetted by the scholarly community. This means published in peer-reviewed sources, and reviewed and judged acceptable scholarship by the academic journals." It should be used sparingly at best. Using it as a reference and EL gives it undue weight.

• Why Cults Terrorize and Kill Children

LLOYD DEMAUSE The Journal of Psychohistory 21 (4) 1994 Even when "authorities" and cited to disprove the existence of any physical evidence of cult abuse, these usually end up referring to one man, Kenneth Lanning of the FBI, who says he has "been unable to find one murder of anyone by two or more people following typical sa-tanic ritualistic prescriptions." What is never mentioned Is that Lanning has done no investigative work on any cult anywhere and ignores all kinds of convictions for cult abuse that are in police and court records, while others who have actually done ritual abuse investigative work for the F.B.I. are ignored by the press.(8) 8. Alfred Lubrano, "Deadly Memories." New York Newsday, May 10,1993; Valerie Sinason, Ed. Treating Satanist Abuse Survivors: An Invisible Trauma. Forthcoming, ms. p. 14

• From Cult and Ritual Abuse - It’s History, Anthropology, and Recent Discovery in Contemporary America - Noblitt and Perskin (Prager, 2000) p. 179

"the document featured on the program (ABC newsmagazine)...is entitled "Investigator's Guide to Allegations of "Ritual" Child Abuse" and contains no data nor research methodology whatsoever. This monograph by Special Agent Ken Lanning (1992) is merely a guide for those who may investigate this phenomenon, as the title indicates, and not a study. The author is well known skeptic regarding cult and ritual abuse allegations who has consulted on a number of cases but to our knowledge has not personally investigated the majority of these cases, some of which have produced convictions."

• Lanning's paper was not published or endorsed by the FBI, although many people erroneously believe it to be so. Lanning wrote and circulated it himself. You might note that Lanning's paper does not follow a standard report format - there is no literature review, no overview of his methodology, and no attempt to explain to his readers how he came to his conclusions. In effect, it is simply Lanning's personal reflections on his experiences investigating child abuse, in relation to claims in the sensationalist media relating to a "Satanic conspiracy" etc.

Lanning's chapter in Out Of Darkness is not a reprinting of his report - in fact, he states explicitly in Out Of Darkness that ritualistic and satanic forms of abuse do occur in sexually abusive groups, but he challenges the notion that the ritualistic abuse is a "religious" or "cult" activity.

ReligiousTolerance.org is not a reliable source for a number of obvious reasons. The authors have no experience or credentials in any of the matters that they write about, they have never been published anywhere else except on their own website, and they claim to be "Consultants" but I've never seen any evidence that they've ever been paid for what they do e.g. Their claim to be "consultants" is actually false, and they are nothing of the kind. --Biaothanatoi (talk) 22:26, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Abuse truth (talk) 03:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• • The fact is that Lanning's paper has been cited in numerous academic, peer-reviewed sources (I'd be happy to provide you with some examples if you insist). It was also a major source for the ritual-abuse section of this Australian government report. Lanning did provide a great many official reports for the FBI, and neither you nor Biaothanatoi (assuming you are two separate people) have provided any reason to doubt the consensus that Lanning is a reliable source on this issue. Noblitt and Perskin are fringe conspiracy theorists, their book was not published by an academic press, and omitting Lanning because of their views would constitute POV and undue weight.
  • Furthermore, it's clear that Lanning's report, as well as being reliable, was also highly influential. It has been cited numerous times by academics studying the SRA craze. It's also been discussed widely in other, less scholarly sources, including Carl Sagan's The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. I don't want to drag Sagan into this, since he isn't really a sociologist or criminologist — but his scientific credentials are at least equal to all the shrinks you're pushing as "experts" on the subject. *** Crotalus *** 04:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Given the lack of objections, I think we can consider Lanning's report to be a crucial, and reliable source. When unlocked, it should be used more extensively, and I support it also being included in the EL section. WLU (talk) 11:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC) - Still discussing WLU (talk)

• WP:RS is a guideline, and WP:IAR allows us to use it if RS interferes with improving wikipedia. If Lanning is good demonstration of the mainstream opinion on SRA, then it's completely suitable. Currently, there is a feeling that the credibility given to the concept is giving undue weight to the existence of a highly improbable condition.
• The journal of psychohistory is not peer reviewed (Lloyd DeMause alone edits it). See Journal of Psychohistory and Psychohistory#Criticism as well - it's not a universally accepted discipline. DeMause uses a Freudian dodge to respond to criticism - "it's resistance, not a valid criticism".
• As stated above, it's use by many, many reliable sources, gives it a lot of credibility.
• Religioustolerance.org is not the source for the report, it is a convenience link, making objections to RT.org a red herring. WLU (talk) 18:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you are right (except about what you say of Freud: deMause distanced himself from the Vienna quack).

Many people interested in psychohistory as a serious field of inquiry believe that deMause's big blunder was to include credulous articles about SRA in his journal back in the 1990s. It was a colossal mistake. And you are right again: those credulous SRA articles were not peer-reviewed (I subscribe the Journal of Psychohistory by the way).

Definitively, Lanning's texts are RS. There's no question about it. Once the page is unlocked and the list of "SRA cases" moved to the right article, we should rely heavily on Lanning's report.

Finally, I would like to congratulate you guys for your recent efforts to correct this article. I just couldn't do it myself since I am not that knowledgeable of WP policies as you are :)

—Cesar Tort 19:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Meant psychological resistance as a freudian concept, not an actual link. From what I've seen on the website, JPH still isn't peer-reviewed. I'd be nervous to use it as a source anywhere. Also note the discussion on the JPH talk page if you haven't already. WLU (talk) 19:56, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Michelle Remembers

MR is a...special book. I think there can be a large amount of criticism and skepticism prima facie. WP:REDFLAG calls for high-quality sources for extreme claims; in the book, Smith claims that she saw Satan himself, and had her scars (conveniently) removed by the Michael the Archangel. Seeing the prime supernatural manifestation of all evil, and more importantly having extensive scarring (physical evidence) removed by another supernatural manifestation, are extreme claims, and given the controversy over recovered memories, I'd say that psychiatry couch recall that is unsubstantiated, if not outright contradicted by actual investigation and evidence, isn't a high-quality source. I've added better references for the book being crap, the last ones were pasted in haste from the MR main page and I had neglected these two. WLU (talk) 14:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

One version of the page says MR is considered "by some" to be untrue. Any RSes that say it's true? Otherwise, I'd say it's considered flatly untrue, unless we've a reliable source saying that angels can remove physical scars. WLU (talk) 17:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The quote below is from the original book. It shows the co-author's extensive qualifications and the rigorous data checking done by the publishing company.

From the book “Michelle Remembers”by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, MD

“A NOTE FROM THE PUBLISHER” pages xi - xiii”

“Dr. Pazder’s credentials are impressive. He obtained his M.D. from the University of Alberta in 1961; his diploma in tropical medicine from the University Liverpool in 1962; and in 1968, his specialist certificate in psychiatry and his diploma in psychological medicine from McGill University. In 1971, he was made a fellow of Canada’s Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons. He is a member of three Canadian professional associations and of the American Psychiatric Association as well. He practiced medicine in West Africa and has participated in medical task forces and health organizations. He has been chairman of the Mental Health Committee of the Health Planning Council for British Columbia. A member of the staff of two hospitals in Victoria, British Columbia–the Royal Jubilee and the Victoria General–he is in private practice with a group of five psychiatrists. His professional papers include a study of the long-term effects of stress upon concentration-camp victims.

Two experienced interviewers journeyed to Victoria and talked to Dr. Pazder’s colleagues, to the priests and the bishop who became involved in the case, to doctors who treated Michelle Smith when she was a child, to relatives and friends. From local newspaper, clergy, and police sources they learned that reports of Satanism in Victoria are not infrequent and that Satanism has apparently existed there for many years. Satanism in Western Canada flourished in many areas with activities far more ominous than some of the innocuous groups now found in parts of the United States who claim some connection with Satanism.

The source material was scrutinized. The many thousands of pages of transcript of the tape recordings that Dr. Pazder and Michelle Smith made of their psychiatric sessions were read and digested; they became the basis of this book. The tapes themselves were listened to in good measure, and the videotapes made of some of his sessions were viewed. Both the audio and video are powerfully convincing. It is nearly unthinkable that the protracted agony they record could have been fabricated.”

Thomas B. Congdon, Jr

New York

April 22, 1980

Abuse truth (talk) 04:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the sources claiming the book to be untrue,

"One of the most well known is Michelle Remembers, published in 1980, written by Michelle Smith and her psychiatrist (and later husband) Lawrence Pazder, though the book is now considered to be completely untrue." 5,6,7,8,9

^ a b Carroll, Robert Todd (2006-04-06). Satanic Ritual Abuse. Skeptic's Dictionary.

^ Aquino, Michael (1994-01-01). Witchcraft, Satanism & Occult Crime: Who's Who & What's What, a Manual of Reference Materials for the Professional Investigator. Phoenix Pub. ISBN 0919345867.

^ a b Medway, Gareth (2001-11-01), Satan in suburbia, Fortean Times, <http://www.forteantimes.com/features/articles/258/satan_in_suburbia.html>. Retrieved on 23 October 2007

^ Denna Allen and Janet Midwinter. "Michelle Remembers: The Debunking of a Myth", The Mail on Sunday, September 30 1990.

^ Cuhulain, Kerr (July 8 2002). Michelle Remembers. Pagan Protection Center.

I noticed that none of these came from peer-reviewed journals or even scientific journals. One cites "religious tolerance" as a source. The potential bias of each source is also apparent. Abuse truth (talk) 05:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

First off, you have things backward. You want to argue for the credibility of Michelle Remembers, a bizarre book filled with extreme claims. As per WP:REDFLAG, it is your job to provide reliable, high-quality, third-party sources substantiating it, not our job to debunk your conspiracy theories yet again. The "publisher's note" is not a third-party source and is certainly not peer-reviewed.

But here is a book that was published by a university press: Theater of Disorder: Patients, Doctors, and the Construction of Illness, by Brant Wenegrat (Oxford University Press, 2001). On p.190-192, this book blames Michelle Remembers (along with Satan's Underground) for "starting the epidemic of satanic abuse allegations." It refers to Smith "mak up these stories." There are numerous other books debunking Michelle Remembers; not all of these are peer-reviewed, but you have yet to cite a single peer-reviewed source supporting these crackpot claims. *** Crotalus *** 06:03, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's another one: The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements by James R. Lewis (Oxford University Press, 2003). p. 233. "Michelle Remembers itself must be treated with great skepticism, not least because literally all the charges involved seem drawn from accounts of West African secret societies from the 1950s, imported to Canada." *** Crotalus *** 06:10, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Since the time of that publishing blurb, 28 years ago, investigators have gone to the province of BC and looked into the contents of the book, finding them baseless. The source is the Mail on Sunday, the link is a link of convenience. I was willing to give MR the benefit of the doubt until I read that the devil himself showed up, and Michael conveniently removed all evidence of her abuse. Claims of the supernatural and evidence-less practices do not get a long leash on wikipedia, and REDFLAG is the appropriate policy - if you wish to use it as a source or prove that it has veracity, you will need proof in the form of third-party citations. Michelle Remembers is fiction and there is no reason to believe the allegations are in any way true. To claim that Dr Pazder (who a) was her husband and b) made a mint off of the book and its various spin-offs) is a reliable source is not feasible. He is essentially charged with jump-starting a modern witch-hunt for which there is no real evidence (and being seen as the foremost expert on it). He is not a reliable source, his therapy tapes are unreliable, uncitable primary sources, and there is no reason to see the book as anything except fabrication produced by leading therapeutic techniques. Crotalus, could you add these sources to the article (possibly MR as well)? Here's the CTs: {{cite book |author=Wenegrat, Brant |title=Theater of disorder: patients, doctors, and the construction of illness |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=Oxford |year=2001 |pages= |isbn=0-19-514087-7 |oclc= |doi=}} and {{cite book |author=Lewis, James P. |title=The Oxford handbook of new religious movements |publisher=Oxford University Press |location=Oxford |year=2004 |pages= |isbn=0-19-514986-6 |oclc= |doi=}}. WLU (talk) 11:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I can't add anything to this article now because it's still protected. I have added the Lewis book to the Michelle Remembers article since it is a reliable academic source. The Wenegrat book was already cited there in a variety of contexts. *** Crotalus *** 02:59, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All sources must be reliable. If some of the skeptical sources about the book are not, then they shouldn't be referenced in the article. And using phrases like "crackpot claims" does not add to the argument. I have seen no evidence stating that leading therapeutic techniques were used.

The book itself states on page 156 "Of course, Dr. Pazder never told Michele about the correspondences he sometimes saw between her experiences and the things he studied."

This phrase is interesting: "He is essentially charged with jump-starting a modern witch-hunt for which there is no real evidence." It is biased and false. There was no "witch hunt." There were, however, allegations of child rape, some proven in court. Abuse truth (talk) 03:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

All the reliable sources say that Michelle Remembers is false. Some academically published sources, one of which I have quoted above, also specifically say that the book was partially responsible for launching the SRA scare in the United States. Whether you agree or disagree with this is irrelevant. Your opinions don't matter; only the sources do. *** Crotalus *** 04:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Crot (sorry for the horrible short form - you need a new user name : ), I meant since you have the books/have read them, could you put them in the place you consider most appropriate. If you think it's obvious, then anyone could do it.

It's not our place to evaluate MR as a source (and others do this for us) - the most we can say is evaluate if it's making exceptional claims per WP:V. Abuse truth - I consider 1) the existence of a continuous 80 day ritual 2) Satan physically appearing in Victoria, BC 3) teh appearance of other mythological figures and 4) physical scars being removed by supernatural means, to be exceptional claims, by any criteria. The book is not a source for how reliable itself is (it's unlikely to say that it is itself made up or possibly fictional, though I would consider it more reliable if it acknowleged that recovered memory and leading questioning were possible considerations). Summoning devils and angels and making scars disappear through magic (actual magic mind you, supernatural forces that momentarily suspended the laws of wound healing and spontaneous tissue regeneration, not stage magic) sounds like a 'crackpot claim' to me. WLU (talk) 19:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

New reference

New reference, from the Australian government I believe. Could be useful, explicitly mentions SRA. WLU (talk) 15:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

SRA in the courts

The first sentence of SRA in the courts is "In America and Britain, defendants in a small number of cases of organised abuse successfully engaged journalists in framing the charges against them as evidence of moral panic and mass hysteria, whilst child protection workers and social workers involved in the cases were restricted from challenging these claims by professional codes of confidentiality." Anyone else read that as 'A small number of defendants got away with molesting small children for satan by using the press to bypass the courts'? It looks like the whole paragraph has an assumption of guilt in it that is POV and unwarranted. WLU (talk) 15:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Further to the courts, there's broad statements which are linked to single sources, and these sources appear to be newspaper reports of single cases. And even these articles are either paper, with no way of verifying, or to an abstract of a news story. The whole section is looking OR-SYNTHy to me. WLU (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that nonsense was stuck in by the POV editors and it clearly violates Misplaced Pages policy. It should be removed. *** Crotalus *** 21:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

The statement does appear to be well sourced. It also appears to be somewhat accurate in some of the US cases, at least in terms of the media. Hechler's "The Battle and The Backlash" goes into both sides of this. Abuse truth (talk) 04:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

There are currently two sources listed. One is not available online, so I can't tell offhand whether "Abuse Truth" is misrepresenting it, or whether it meets reliability standards. The other one — a book by Jenny Kitzinger (a "Professor of Media and Communication Studies" with no apparent sociological or criminological background) published by the fringe Pluto Press (which "has always had a radical political agenda") is not a reliable source. *** Crotalus *** 05:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The first sentence is supported by two references - first Kitzinger, and I think Crotalus' statement is worth paying attention to. The second is sourced to a fourteen-year-old publication of "Children Australia", which my filters won't even let me look at - it calls the page it's apparently sourced to () a "Malicious web site". The only comment I can see is "Children Australia is a quarterly journal..." so apparently the source of the Goddard appears to be Oz Child, an NGO in Australia. I don't know if this is the best source for a pretty strong claim like that. It does show up on google scholar though rarely with an accompanying link. Goddard shows up frequently as an author, anyone know anthing else about him? I think this is his university page. WLU (talk) 18:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Crotalus appears to be incorrect about this source:

Kitzinger, Jenny (2004). Framing abuse: media influence and public understanding of sexual violence against children. Pluto. ISBN 0745323316.

It is distributed in the US by a university press.

Pluto is a progressive publication.

http://www.plutobooks.com/shtml/aboutpluto.shtml

"Pluto Press has a proud history of publishing the very best in progressive, critical thinking across politics and the social sciences. We are an independent company based in London, with a sales and marketing office in the United States and distribution rights throughout the world."

"We commission the best in critical, progressive writing that bridges trade and academic markets, and our authors include many of the world's leading thinkers, past and present. We publish political classics by writers including Karl Marx, Frederick Engels, Leon Trotsky, Frantz Fanon, Andre Gorz, Manning Marable, Jack London and Antonio Gramsci. Contemporary political writers and voices of conscience include Noam Chomsky, Edward Said, Howard Zinn, bell hooks, Ariel Dorfman, Susan George, John Pilger, Ziauddin Sardar, Israel Shahak, Greg Palast, Milan Rai, William Rivers Pitt, Boris Kagarlitsky, Robin Hahnel, Saul Landau, Sheila Rowbotham, Peter Fryer, Joseph Rotblat, Frank Füredi, Eduardo Galeano and Vandana Shiva. We also have a fine list of European literature in translation that includes Jean Baudrillard, Guy Debord, Raoul Vaneigem and Pierre Bourdieu."

Here are some endorsements of Pluto.

Endorsements

Noam Chomsky

"Pluto is one of the world's finest publishers. There's no doubt about that. The Pluto people keep on turning out a range of exciting and, above all, important books....

John Pilger "Pluto Press is our Weapon of Mass Instruction. A courageous list." Greg Palast (for info. on Pilger, see 'The War on Democracy' is John Pilger's first major film for the cinema - in a career that has produced more than 55 television documentaries....

www.johnpilger.com/"

They also publish Chomsky : http://www.plutobooks.com/shtml/noamchomsky.shtml

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0QLQ/is_3_20/ai_n15390147

about Kitzinger's book:

Framing Abuse: Media Influence and Public Understanding of Sexual Violence Against Children

"Does the media shape our perceptions, or do they tell us what we suspect or want to hear? What effects do pressure groups have on the media? What actually happens when the media "discover" a crisis? Kitzinger (media and communication, Cardiff U.) uses sexual violence against children as a case study to examine how the media use theories of active consumption, creative identification and agenda-setting to develop controversial allegations and analogies, create empathy and a sense of place in viewers, and promote images of perpetrators and survivors. It appears that the media actually can make a difference in exposing social evils and injustice, if those concerned know how to work in partnership. Distributed in the US by the U. of Michigan Press."

Distributed in the US by U. of Michigan Press

http://www.press.umich.edu/titleDetailDesc.do?id=115103

This book offers fascinating insights into how the media shape the way we think. Combining in-depth analysis of media representations of child sexual abuse with focus group discussions and interviews with around 500 journalists, campaigners and a cross-section of 'the public', Jenny Kitzinger reveals the media's role in contemporary society.

And, I would think that a professor in media studies would be a good one to make a comment about the media.

On Goddard (2nd source);

Goddard, CR (1994). "The organised abuse of children in rural England: the response of social services: part one". Children Australia 19 (3): 37-40.

"Professor Goddard has a major research and publication record, undertaking research in health, welfare and legal settings. He undertook his basic social work education in England where he worked in social service departments. On arrival in Australia he established the Child Protection Team at the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. With other professionals, Professor Goddard founded Australians Against Child Abuse (now known as The Australian Childhood Foundation), an agency which offers counselling for abused children, as well as advocacy, research, education and prevention programs."

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/socialwork/staff/goddard.html

So far, both sources look good. I hope that the sources skeptical about the existence of SRA are looked at as thoroughly. Abuse truth (talk) 04:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

We've dealt before with Kitzinger as a source. On the plus side, she is a professor (= in the USA full professor) at a good university. She has co-authored two books with Sage and one with Oxford University Press, so in principle any work by her, not just her books with academic publishers and in academic journals, could count as a good source. On the minus side, she is an expert in media studies not in psychology or criminology. Also her work takes a marked slant. That's her prerogative as a scholar but for the purposes of the encyclopedia we should be careful to balance it wherever possible by work of other scholars who take a different perspective. Pluto also has a stance - by no means identical to that of Kitzinger - and it is a serious publisher but not one of the mainstream scholarly imprints. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Plus, the book is about the media influence on sexual violence against children. That's where its authority is, not on whether there were wrongful convictions, legal error or whether the cases were true. The book has its place, documenting how the media feeds and fed into the SRA phenomenon, but not in saying the courts were wrong to release the accused. Also, is it about SRA, or organized abuse? They're different things, aren't they? Lanning says they are. WLU (talk) 19:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Spin-out news clippings

I would support a spinout of almost all of those snippets and press clippings to List of satanic ritual abuse allegations and cases. A bloated list does not belong in this article, and was being used to push POV that SRA is a widespread prevalent phenomenon rather than a series of anecdotes, "outlier" results, and unverified claims, which may have no validity as an actual phenomenon at all.

We also need a lot more information from credible scholarly sources such as books published in university presses. On the one hand you have (for example) Noblitt & Perskin's fairly obscure Cult and Ritual Abuse, a "personal but also scholarly journey" published by a house printing "academic and general interest books," and hardly known outside the SRA-wonk world. On the other you have David Frankfurter's work published by Princeton University Press and favorably reviewed in The New York Times and Publishers Weekly. Guess which one we assign more weight to currently? <eleland/talkedits> 05:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

• The spin-off is probably a good idea. Then we could include a brief mention in this article, avoiding undue weight. Also, I've said in the past that this article would probably be better if we restricted ourselves to government-affiliated and academic sources (and maybe books by top-tier non-scholarly publishing houses, though there we would have to be very careful). Current sourcing needs lots of work. *** Crotalus *** 05:33, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Spin-out and {{main}} works for me, we can avoid undue by having a section that is just the {{main}} link, I've seen it before. I'd still be happier if the non-viewable news links were used much more carefully and any contentious statements citing them were backed up by more readily available sources. OK for the "list of ..." page as a lot of them are simply news reports on apparent SRA, not for the main.

The problem with restricting ourselves exclusively to government and academic works is that SRA is in part a cultural phenonmena. Careful use of non-scholarly works to delineate parts of the cultural aspects could be warranted. WLU (talk) 18:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

The list of cases was an attempt to document SRA via reliable sources court cases, convictions and allegations. It appears that some editors want to minimize the actual convictions of cases in courts of law, and even delegate them to a side page. And perhaps not even that. This is of course ridiculous. The actual convictions show the existence and at least partial prevalence of SRA as a world-wide phenomena. But these convictions do not fit the view (POV) that SRA is simply "unverified claims." Therefore it appears that some editors would prefer these convictions not be reported and eliminated. In order for the page to be NPOV (and accurate), data from reliable sources, including the media, needs to be documented. Abuse truth (talk) 04:30, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Really? These people were convicted of "Satanic ritual abuse?" Or were they convicted of abuse, in a context where unverified claims of SRA had been made?

Let's take a case study - and it's literally the first one I checked up on, so no selection bias here.

"Along with his wife, he was found to have used hypnosis and ritualistic abuse to sexually abuse and prostitute two children in the mid-1990s. Whilst in jail, he attempted to have the two children murdered in order to prevent them from testifying against him.79"

(Note that the web link was not originally provided.)

The source actually says nothing whatsoever about hypnosis, and in fact makes it clear that the judge found him not to have had religious motivations, but that "Fletcher's behavior, whether dressed up in the clothes of religion or connected with his professed concern for a vulnerable child in his charge, matched the course that best advanced his selfish sexual or financial interests Justice Harper said religious freedom and tolerance were important, but they could not be used to cloak the exploitation of children, and religion could not be used as justification to pervert justice."

As usual, the SRA wonks have taken a sad, sick case in which the perpetrator happened to try and shift focus onto Satanism nonsense, and turned it into documentation for their fairy tales. This bullshit has gone on long enough. I want an arbitration case and I want editors who have repeatedly cited sources misleadingly to be permanently banned from Misplaced Pages. <eleland/talkedits> 05:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I think all of "Abuse Truth"'s sources need to be carefully checked and we have to insist that he provide direct quotes from now on for any assertions he wants to make. We've seen on several occasions that we cannot trust him to provide accurate paraphrases without filtering through the lens of his own bias on this issue. Everything he has added should at the least be tagged with {{Request quotation}}.

As to the case above, labeling it as "satanic ritual abuse" is clearly original research. Neither the term "Satan" nor any derivation thereof even appears in the story at all.

And as I've said before, adding a list of convictions to this page is like adding a list of conspiracy convictions to the Conspiracy theory page. It completely misses the point, and misunderstands what the term actually means. *** Crotalus *** 13:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The list of SRA cases (using this loosely, because I consider many to be debatable) in no way adds to the information content of the page; all it does is give the imrpression that SRA is a real phenomenon. This is not a judgement for us or our readers to make, and a separate list maintains the content while not giving a WP:SYNTHy impression that there is a world-wide, universal and coherent phenomena of interlinked SRA cases. I'm not willing to say AT should quote all things put on the page, I see no reason to violate the spirit of WP:AGF in this way. But there is huge precedent for this kind of thing: Category:Lists, List of kidnappings, List of assassinated people, List of political hostages held by FARC, List of poisonings, List of military controversies, List of controversial issues, it is very common in a main article on a topic, to have a 'list of' link in the see also section. Therefore, it is appropriate and I see no reason to dispute this. I'm creating and pasting the page now, it can be moved over and {{main}}ed when the page is unlocked. WLU (talk) 17:07, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Done, List of satanic ritual abuse allegations, though it could be moved to cases I suppose, as cases is more inclusive to both allegations and convictions (any title with an 'and' in it, seems to be a bad one to me). Note that the page listing alleged cases might be more suitable as an external link on that page (from ra-info I think). Meh, I'll move it. When unprotected, the entire section should be replaced with {{main|List of satanic ritual abuse cases}} WLU (talk) 17:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Moved list of satanic ritual abuse cases. WLU (talk) 17:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I moved it back, because "cases" is more POV than "allegations"; the latter term merely reports the existence of the allegation. (You can't have convictions without allegations.) --Orange Mike | Talk 17:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Funny, because I moved it originally 'cause I thought 'allegations' was too sympathetic to the skeptics : ) Do you still think it's proddable, or is the discussion here sufficient to convince you it's worth a page? WLU (talk) 17:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to defer to the folks here, if the skeptics and true believers alike agree that it's not a POV fork. "Allegations" is more neutral, because it takes no position as to truth or falsity of the allegation. "Cases" assumes that there's something substantive behind the allegation. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:12, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I still strongly believe that this should not be forked into a separate page. These cases are part of the SRA phenomena.

In reply to eleland, note how he misrepresents my position to attack my argument. He states, "These people were convicted of "Satanic ritual abuse?" Or were they convicted of abuse, in a context where unverified claims of SRA had been made?" I previously stated "The list of cases was an attempt to document SRA via reliable sources court cases, convictions and allegations." I never stated that anyone was convicted of "SRA." Interesting that he needs to call people "SRA wonks." Let's look at another case.

"Mornington Peninsula, Victoria

In the late 1980s, a number of children at a daycare centre in the Mornington Peninsula, Victoria, began disclosing experiences of organised and ritualistic sexual abuse to their parents and the police. Their disclosures included instances in which they were taken in a car from the creche to a nearby house, undressed by adults and sexually assaulted, video-taped and filmed while naked, and urinated and defecated upon by adults. The children disclosed that some of the abusers wore police uniforms, masks and costumes.

In 1992, a government inquiry ordered that the daycare centre be shut on the basis that there was significant evidence that the owner of the centre had either participated in the abuse or facilitated it. This include forensic evidence that some of the children had been sexually penetrated. The police never pressed charges against the couple, who later fled to Queensland and, in a serious breach of privacy laws, published the names and addresses of all the complainant children online."

Though no conviction was found, the media documents "organised and ritualistic sexual abuse."

Of course eleland finds the need to threaten people with a POV different from his by stating: "This bullshit has gone on long enough. I want an arbitration case and I want editors who have repeatedly cited sources misleadingly to be permanently banned from Misplaced Pages."

More interesting is the statement from "Crotalus horridus." (If you remember back to December, Crotalus was the user that came in without his name (using his ISP address) and reverted the page back two months. This was called vandalism by several skeptical and SRA believer editors alike.)

"I think all of "Abuse Truth"'s sources need to be carefully checked and we have to insist that he provide direct quotes from now on for any assertions he wants to make. We've seen on several occasions that we cannot trust him to provide accurate paraphrases without filtering through the lens of his own bias on this issue. Everything he has added should at the least be tagged with {{Request quotation}}."

Of course "Crotalus" is wrong again. I did not write any of the sections on the cases page nor did I ever edit any of these sections, other than restoring the deletions of them back to the page. His bias appears to have a very large lens. His picking of data to support his own POV shows an extreme bias. This has been shown on this talk page several times. This is apparent in how he picks the data (see the section above) on Pluto Press. Perhaps "Crotalus'" edits need to be watched more closely. Abuse truth (talk) 04:09, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you completely misunderstand the point. No one denies that child abuse takes place, both individually and in groups, and that some small number of child abusers have used ritual trappings (whether Christian, Satanic, or any other religion) to control and intimidate their victims. That's beside the point and irrelevant because it is not what this article is about. This article is about the topic of "satanic ritual abuse," a conspiracy theory popular in the 1980s that postulated a massive, multigenerational worldwide conspiracy killing thousands of children a year, breeding babies for sacrifice, infiltrating high positions in government and society, and so on. Putting small-scale cases of real ritual abuse in order to justify the SRA scare is like trying to use a small-scale conviction for "conspiracy to distribute cocaine" in order to prove that maybe conspiracy theories aren't so crazy after all. It's completely unacceptable. It is undue weight and original research by synthesis and it will not be allowed here. You have pushed your POV on this article for far too long, and it's over now. You will no longer be permitted to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for your fringe theories. *** Crotalus *** 04:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>Find me other articles (that aren't lists) where there is documentation of every single case that shows up in the news. I'd say they are the minority, and there are very few (probably none) that are featured articles. Kidnapping, comparable because it is a crime, links to the 'list of famous kidnappings', but it does not deal with them in the main body. What does placing them in the main body do, except attempt to prove in a sneaky way, that SRA is real. Cannibalism does (but probably shouldn't) but the difference is cannibalism is unambiguous (you've either eaten someone or you haven't). More comparable (because they deal with intent) are Conspiracy (civil) (none), Conspiracy (crime) (none), Fraud (every single one in the list has a main article; by comparision, we have four with main article for 19 sections, 21 if you include Brazil and Argentina). At best it could be re-named 'Notable cases', briefly summarize the main articles, and the list could go in the see also section. You appear to be trying to demonstrate that SRA is true, when we only establish if it is verifiable; with the news articles we can only verify information about those cases, not anything about SRA overall. Therefore, they should be on a separate page. WLU (talk) 19:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Satanic ritual abuse is not a conspiracy theory or scare. It is documented by news reports, court cases and journal articles. This has been shown through a variety of references. The many cases in newspapers and journals definitely show a pattern. We need to put these on the page and let the readers decide from all of the reliable soruces available as to veracity of SRA claims. The bias of some of the editors on this page is obvious. It does a disservice to the use of wikipedia as an encyclopedia, giving its readers a warped and onesided view of the debate. Abuse truth (talk) 03:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Trying to demonstrate "a pattern" by a series of disconnected newspaper clippings is a classic example of original research by synthesis, and is prohibited. *** Crotalus *** 04:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, synth. Those are individual cases of SRA, it is up to others to pull them together to say they are all connected, not us. And placing them in the main page, on a page like this, is for me a synthetic attempt to give credence to an unproven theory. WLU (talk) 12:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

SRA exists vs. SRA does not exist

we don't need to constantly argue about the tone of the article and if it supports a majority or minority view, or what those views are- freud talked about it before any of use were born, so I think that the only possible view is that it is unknown if true. majority or minority viewpoint don't matter as much NOW, if some references essentially pre-date psychology itself. 66.220.110.83 (talk) 04:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Professional, peer-reviewed evidence

I would be inclined to disbelieve evidence of SRA unless it is professional and peer-reviewed. If those people who believe that it exists could give me a reference in a peer-reviewed and published journal to a group of professionals who have carried out a study then I might be more inclined to believe them, but so far no-one has managed to do just that, which is a very basic level of scientific veritability. --J.StuartClarke (talk) 14:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

If I'm understanding you, you're saying that the existence of Satanic ritual abuse is an exceptional claim requiring exceptional sources. In my mind, the cultural phenomenon of SRA is definitely something worth talking about. The existence of incidents of sexual, physical and other types of abuse in which satan is mentioned, is something worth talking about. But the idea of a world-wide conspiracy of people breeding and babies for killing, and abducting and ritually killing people for the purpose of summoning of satan to earth, is an extreme claim, which should not be given credibility without solid evidence. Cases of SRA found in papers are largely isolated, and often dubiously related to the actual satanic worship of satan. I'd say the page should focus more on the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s. WLU (talk) 19:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I endorse what you say WLU. Itsmejudith (talk) 19:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I also agree.

Above (in the archives now I think) I mooted the idea of splitting off a ritualistic child abuse article which could deal more with the treatment of actual ritual abuse w/o the requirement that it be "Satanic." Most of it is done by Christians, after all. That would pose problems of avoiding a POV fork, I don't think it's a POV fork in principle but I'm sure that tendentious editors would try and make it one. <eleland/talkedits> 19:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this idea. There is no reason the page should be a POV fork; it deals with a different subject. This page is (or should be) about the conspiracy theory and cultural phenomenon that was widespread in the 1980s. A page on ritualistic child abuse would cover documented types of child abuse that take place in a ritualistic setting; this would include the cases where perpetrators use ritual trappings to intimidate/control their victims, as well as various other forms of ritualized abuse such as Christian exorcisms-by-beating. *** Crotalus *** 19:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely. Indeed, I edited Child sacrifice in pre-Columbian cultures. Unlike SRA, that ritualistic child abuse was real and there is even forensic evidence after so many hundreds of years (unlike the SRA cases, where forensic evidence is zilch). —Cesar Tort 19:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that "the existence of Satanic ritual abuse is an exceptional claim requiring exceptional sources." I also disagree that "the page should focus more on the satanic panic of the 80s and 90s." The page should focus on all related cases from reliable sources. This would be unbiased, allowing the reader to decide the truth about the issue. If we pick and choose data to promote, we are simply promoting a biased POV. Abuse truth (talk) 04:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The theory of satanic ritual abuse postulated that a vast, intergenerational Satanist conspiracy was murdering many thousands of children a year and covering up all evidence, that they were breeding babies for sacrifice, and that they had infiltrated the highest levels of government and society. These are indeed extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence. It is not an extraordinary claim to say that some perverts used ritual to intimidate and control their victims — but that is not SRA, any more than the local drug pusher's "conspiracy to distribute narcotics" is a conspiracy theory or that an aircraft whose markings you can't make out is an unidentified flying object. Most of the cases in the article have never been called SRA by reliable sources, making their inclusion a clear violation of WP:NOR. They also violate WP:UNDUE. *** Crotalus *** 04:55, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

The claims are that the evidence was covered up, yet the fact that the covered evidence was not in evidence is a contradiction. Checking into the descriptions of how children were forced to take part in either destroying that evidence or disposing of it in such a manner it was unlikely to be found, how could anyone reasonably expect it to be laying around just waiting for the CSI teams to discover? The concept that three and four year-old children told such similar stories would also indicate that either the stories are essentially true, or somehow these children, on being interviewed for the first time, had engaged in some vast conspiratorial hoax, as if children that young could find a means of contacting others around the country and conceive of such an idea. A practice that has had decades, if not centuries of time to develop a means of operating in secret would not lend itself to easy discovery. Examine the number of secret meetings that are known to occur, yet the content of which is unknown. The Skull and Bones and the Bilderberger group are examples that readily come to mind. Yet no one claims the groups do not exist. The other reality is that in actuality there are dozens of known cases where the evidence WAS found, the perpetrators confessed, a conviction was obtained, the guilty imprisoned. Yet even some of those were later overturned because of some technicality. Those convicted also seem to have an extraordinary effort made by others to overturn their cases. Why such a full charge effort to do that? What is it that must be discounted by any means necessary? Anyone who truly wants to dig into those cases and examine the evidence for themselves would end up wondering what is really being covered up. Even when the tunnels at the McMartin school WERE found, the news media stayed silent, and that evidence was ignored. The conclusion of many who followed the case from a distance would be that no such evidence, therefore, exists. Just like the huge numbers of children who developed the same STD's from each source, more evidence is once again not emphasized or reported. Having spent a considerable amount of time now in researching and finding the facts of numerous cases, there is no way to conclude that "nothing happened". So thousands of victims not only try to live with such a history, but also with being totally discounted and disbelieved. In fact, the more incredible and bizarre the practioners make their abuses, the less believable the tellers would be. Brilliantly deliberate, given the willingness of most people to refuse to believe what is too horrible to believe. How easy it is to dupe John Q Public. Julaine Cooper24.243.143.92 (talk) 05:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Claims that the evidence was covered up are fairly common in conspiracy theories. They are not a substitute for having actual evidence. Experience shows us that virtually all perpetrators, even the most careful, do usually leave at least some physical evidence behind. In fact, one of the basic principles of crime scene analysis is that everyone takes something from the scene with them, and leaves something behind (even if it's trace evidence that requires careful examination to find). Virtually all the major cases of the 1980s were proven to be baseless witch hunts, which is why there was so much effort put into overturning them — they were a major failure and breakdown of the criminal justice system in the face of hysteria. No reliable source ever verified the claims of tunnels at McMartin, though a few crackpots said they had found them. The reason the disclosures were all so similar is the same reason that disclosures of witchcraft in the early modern era were so similar. The inquisitors/therapists were working from a common source; in the latter case, the Malleus Maleficarum, in the former, Michelle Remembers. In fact, the claims in both cases are remarkably similar: a massive, evil satanic conspiracy is killing children, and only by waiving the normal rules of evidence, criminal procedure, and common sense can it be stopped. This similarity has been commented on by various scholars. *** Crotalus *** 05:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

• "Even when the tunnels at the McMartin school WERE found..." (user Julaine Cooper, above).

Please read the archived talk pages. This has been discussed before when I called the attention to this article: The Dark Truth About the "Dark Tunnels of McMartin" —Cesar Tort 05:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

To AT - There are multiple editors who think that SRA is an exceptional claim. And all we can do with news stories is report the contents of those stories. Anything else we do with those stories is a SYNTH. Therefore, it's appropriate they be in a separate page, with no synth happening on either page.

To JC - Skull and Bones didn't kill people, did they? And the interviews are thought to come to a common end because of the leading interview questions used by investigators. Multiple cases of STDs in children is evidence of multiple sexual assaults, not satanic rituals. And the rest is a synthesis. If you have new sources, that will do more to advance your position than a long opinion. WLU (talk) 12:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

(Addressed to Crotalus and Juliane Cooper - moved by WLU (talk)) Where is your scientific proof to the contrary? BrianTolbert (talk) 13:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Please thread your posts rather than interrupting discussion, per the talk page guidelines. WLU (talk) 13:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

He doesn't need "scientific proof." He needs evidence to support his claims, and it needs to be scientific evidence if it's a scientific claim. The author of Michelle Remembers was consulted on over 1,000 SRA investigations, according to the Daily Mail, and was one of the highest-profile "experts" cited in all the early news reports. According to The Commercial Appeal, a newspaper in Tennessee, prosecutors used the book as a guide to SRA cases.

The best source on McMartin excavations is the findings of the reputable archaelogical company which dug it up for the prosecution. They looked exactly where the kids had described trap doors, tunnels, etc, and found nothing. It's worth noting also that virtually every child had a different description of where these features were. The subsequent dig was done by one guy, hired by the parents of the "victim" children, and roped into their delusions. He found the same thing the first dig did - backfilled garbage pits from decades earlier - and interpreted it as proof of tunnels. His findings were specifically discounted in an article in the peer-reviewed journal Behavior and Social Issues On the scientific question here, you have two conflicting reports, one by professionals with all the certifications, and one by a little-known PhD which was subsequently discredited. <eleland/talkedits> 01:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Crotalus's final point, about the similarity to witch hunts, has been the subject of an entire book published by an expert in a university press. See Frankfurter's Evil Incarnate. <eleland/talkedits> 01:12, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

<undent>McMartin preschool trial is reasonably sourced, and points to bupkus. Is an allegation, not proof. --WLU (talk) 02:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously I agree that there should be a page on SRA, simply because of its fame and the fact that it is a very important issue, no matter what view you take on its veritability. However, I still feel that it should be more clearly stated in the article that this is not something that has been proven to have occoured. The most basic level of scientific veritability is for a paper to be published in a peer-reviewed journal, and since this is a psychiatry related issue, it is well within the realm of science. All the sources currently used to support the existance of SRA are fairly ephemeral in nature, and are certainly not serious scientific journals, of the type that would be necessary to state that this is a proven occourance. --J.StuartClarke (talk) 13:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, SRA has occurred depending on your definition - any abuse in which satan is mentioned, the use of satanic elements in abuse (for religious, mental illness or victim terrification reasons), or the killing of a child within a ritual context, by some definitions, that is satanic ritual abuse (and that is a major point made by Lanning - it's hard to define, and there are valid cases in which abusers have invoked 'satanic/religious/ritual' elements. Lanning suggests focussing on the abuse and ignoring the motivation - motivation is only really necessary for charges beyond the abuse or for a psych defense). Add to that, the abuse can be sexual, physical or emotional, it's a very slippery topic. The strongest characterization of SRA, that of multi-generational families breeding and kidnapping children for supernatural purposes within the context of a nation- or world-wide conspiracy that controls governments, police, legal systems and businesses, that has never been even close to proven. However, it's well documented (in the news stories) that people have mentioned satan or worn robes while molesting children, and that dead children have been found in the context of rituals. But these appear to be isolated incidents, not a cohesive phenomenon in which all incidents of abuse are linked. Arguably, the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping is a case of ritual abuse, as it took place within the context of the abuser's religious (and therefore ritualistic) worldview.

For me, the more salient issue on the page is massive panic and belief in the existence of the 'strong form' of SRA - massive conspiracy version - that had a HUGE impact in the 80s and 90s, stretching overseas to Britain as well. I'd say that is arguably the true topic of the page, to the point that I could see moving the page to Satanic ritual abuse phenomenon or something similar. That's also the take used by Religious Tolerance.org (and possibly a bunch of books too, since I haven't read any). But that's my opinion, and I don't have enough WP:V to back me up - so I let it be. WLU (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(Outdent, reply to WLU:) Here are a few definitions of SRA given in peer-reviewed academic journals.

deYoung, Mary. Satanic Ritual Abuse in Day Care: An Analysis of 12 American Cases. Child Abuse Review; May97, Vol. 6 Issue 2.

Frankfurter, David. Ritual as Accusation and Atrocity: Satanic Ritual Abuse, Gnostic Libertinism, and Primal Murders. History of Religions, Vol. 40, No. 4. (May, 2001).

Bette L. Bottoms; Phillip R. Shaver; Gail S. Goodman Bottoms, Bette L.; Shaver, Phillip R.; Goodman, Gail S. An Analysis of Ritualistic and Religion-Related Child Abuse Allegations. Law and Human Behavior, Vol. 20, No. 1. (Feb., 1996).

-*** Crotalus *** 16:50, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are some different definitions of SRA.

two peer-reviewed sources

"Deviant Scripturalism and Ritual Satanic Abuse" Part One: "Possible Judeo-Christian Influences." S. Kent - Religion 23 no.3 (July, 1993): 229-241.

"A plausible explanation for satanic abuse accounts that is not explored by critics is that deviant: either develop satanic rituals from material that exists in easily accesible mainstream religious texts, or sanctify their violence by framing it within passages in otherwise normative scriptures." p. 231

"Multiple Personality Disorder and :Satanic Ritual Abuse: the Issue Of Credibility" Dissociation, Vol. III, No. 1 March 1990 S. VanBenschoten

Ritual abuse may or may not have satanic overtones. However, many of the allegations of ritual abuse which have surfaced over the present decade specifically implicate allegiance to or worship of Satan as the basis for accomplishing or justifying the ceremonial activities performed. Although the prevalence of satanic ritual abuse is not known, its involvement in a variety of social contexts and diverse belief systems has been reported. Highly secretive and rigidly structured cults have been implicated, as well as groups exploiting day care centers, groups disguised as traditional religious structures, families (including rnultigenerational involvement), small self-styled adolescent groups, child pornography and drug rings, and individuals acting either independently or within loosely knit groups (Brown, 1986: Gallant, 1986, 1988; Gould, 1986, 1987; Kahaner, 1988; Young, 1989).

two skeptical sources

http://www.religioustolerance.org/sra.htm

Satanic Ritual Abuse (SRA) can be defined as the psychological, sexual, and/or physical assault forced on an unwilling human victim, and committed by one or more Satanists according to a prescribed ritual, the primary aim of which is to fulfill the need to worship the Christian devil, Satan.

by Kenneth V. Lanning, Supervisory Special Agent

Behavioral Science Unit

National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime

1992 FBI Report --Satanic Ritual Abuse By Kenneth V. Lanning, Supervisory Special Agent Behavioral Science Unit National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime

What is "Ritual" Child Abuse?

I cannot define "ritual child abuse" precisely and prefer not to use the term. I am frequently forced to use it (as throughout this discussion) so that people will have some idea what I am discussing. Use of the term, however, is confusing, misleading, and counterproductive. The newer term "satanic ritual abuse" (abbreviated "SRA") is even worse. Certain observations, however, are important for investigative understanding. Most people today use the term to refer to abuse of children that is part of some evil spiritual belief system, which almost by definition must be satanic.

Satanic Ritual Abuse: The Evidence Surfaces

By Daniel Ryder, CCDC, LSW

http://home.mchsi.com/~ftio/ra-evidence-surfaces.htm

The report was written by supervisory special agent Kenneth Lanning. It has gone out to law enforcement agencies around the country; and has been cited consistently throughout the media the last several years. The report states, in regards to "organized" Satanic ritual abuse homicide (that is, two or more Satanic cult members conspiring to commit murder):

a comment from a previous editor on this talk page

There are some editors here who believe that claims of SRA have no basis in fact. In my experience, they have also tended to presume...that there are only two sides to this debate - the "skeptics" and the "believers" - and that anyone who is not a "skeptic" must therefore be a zealot or nutjob who believes in "Satanic conspiracies". As a result, editors like myself who don't subscribe to the "skeptic" POV on SRA tend to be accused of having a secret "agenda" or being a "conspiracy theorist". This is not the basis for calm and respectful discussion.

There are a diversity of opinions and explanations for SRA, even amongs the skeptics. You'll note that I've added the largest number of "sceptical" references on SRA of any editor. However, regardless of what your personal POV is, Misplaced Pages asks us to give adequate weight to all sources and POVs in order to meet the basic criteria of balance and NPOV.

The following is a sample of academics who have conducted research, and written articles and books, which take disclosures of SRA seriously: Prof. Liz Kelly, Prof. Roland Summit, Prof. Jenny Kitzinger, Prof. Catherine Itzen, Prof. Freda Briggs, Prof. Chris Goddard, Ass. Prof. Dawn Perlmutter, Dr Randy Noblitt, Dr Sara Scott, Drs Jonker and Jonker-Bakker, Dr Phil Mollon, Dr Katherine Faller, Dr Valerie Sinason, Dr Jean Goodwin, Dr Peter Bibby. Only a few of these authors are quoted on this article, but they have all made substantive contributions to the study of SRA and organised abuse. These people are not zealots, nutjobs, or "believers" in a "Satanic conspiracy". They are respected professionals and academics who are writing from a range of disciplines, and they take disclosures of SRA seriously on the basis of clinical experience and/or empirical research.

We all have strong views on the subject. I'm not advocating that we ignore the "skeptics" or entrench one POV in the article over another. I'm asking that we abide by Misplaced Pages policy: which is that we represent all POVs and sources in the article fairly, with consideration to balance and credibility. I'm also asking that "sceptical" editors presume good faith, and start treating myself, and other non-"sceptic" editors, as people of serious intent who are here to improve the article and nothing more. --Biaothanatoi (talk) 06:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

In reply to WLU: There is no consensus that "SRA is an exceptional claim." Nor is there a consensus to a definition of SRA, neither here or in the literature. To separate the news articles from this page, due to an unaccepted cooncept in the literature would be OR, wikipedia making up its own definition of SRA and claiming this is the only one. As stated previously, this would also be a POV fork, as this fork would be based on some of the skeptical editors more biased definitions of SRA.

McMartin was a very long complex trial. With many views from both sides of the issue.

Nine of 11 jurors at a press conference following the trial stated that they believed the children had been molested. These same jurors stated that they believed that the evidence did not allow them to state who had committed the abuse beyond a reasonable doubt. "Tapes of Children Decided the Case for Most Jurors". Los Angeles Times. Friday, January 19, 1990. pp. A1 and A2. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)

Suggested split

It has been suggested that this article be split into articles entitled Satanic ritual abuse panic and Ritualistic child abuse. Discuss below.

Rationale

"Satanic ritual abuse" generally refers to an unsupported conspiracy theory involving vast networks of satanic paedophiles abusing children for religious purposes, and often positing actual supernatural powers. The theory was devised in the 1980s, rocketed to prominence circa 1987, and slowly died through the 1990s. The parallels to the witch hunts of old were obvious and much remarked-upon.

"Ritualistic child abuse" unquestionably exists and has arguably been almost ubiquitous throughout history. It was already old hat when the Spartans did it. People have been convicted of it even in modern-day first world societies, and practitioners have examined diagnosis and treatment options. It does overlap with the SRA panic. Some therapists believe that SRA was real and relevant to treating ritualistic abuse, some therapists believe that SRA was a moral panic and the backlash against false allegations obscured a real, though much less prevalent, phenomenon, and some believe that SRA was a colossal distraction.

Satanic ritual abuse panic will document SRA from a sociological perspective, while noting that Ritualistic child abuse is real, and introducing medical information about it to the extent necessary to document SRA sociologically.

Ritualistic child abuse will discuss ritual abuse as a medical problem, while noting that the Satanic ritual abuse panic strongly affected the understanding of ritual abuse in the public mind, led to increased disclosures and diagnoses, some of which were false. <eleland/talkedits> 16:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

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Discussion

I am against the split. The definition of SRA above is extremely biased and POV. It only represents one side of the argument. There are a variety of definitions of SRA. The literature itself does not split the two, so why should Misplaced Pages? I am also against rushing edits to this page. The reason the block was put on was to stop edit wars. The way to work these out is to take the time to discuss a compromise on the talk page. Abuse truth (talk) 21:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Support, but with name alterations I would agree that splitting this topic would be exactly what is needed, since SRA is not accepted as scientific fact and ritualist child abuse is. I'm not sure about the wording you've used, particually for the SRA page, but I'll have a think about that in the pub... --J.StuartClarke (talk) 21:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

1. "Who Was Abused?". New York Times. September 19, 2004. Retrieved 2007-08-21. There are several ways to view the small white house on Center Street in Bakersfield, California. From one perspective it's just another low-slung home in a working-class neighborhood, with a front yard, brown carpeting, a TV in the living room. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
2. "Child-Abuse And Children's Credibility". New York Times. February 17, 1985. Retrieved 2007-08-21. Accusations of sexual abuse of children by a ring of adults made front-page headlines around the country last year, when 24 people in Jordan, Minnesota were charged with abusing their own and other people's children, and 27 children were removed from their homes. One man pleaded guilty, but the only couple brought to trial was acquitted. In October, the Scott County attorney, R. Kathleen Morris, dismissed the remaining charges with the explanation that she did not want to release confidential documents involving a murder investigation or submit the children to the emotional stress of testifying in the remaining trials. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
3. Hechler, David (1988). The Battle and the Backlash: The Child Sexual Abuse War. Lexington Books.
4. Humphrey, H. (1985). Report on Scott County investigations. Minnesota Attorney General's Office.
5. Faller, K. C. (2004). "Sexual Abuse of Children: Contested Issues and Competing Interests." Criminal Justice Review 29(2): 358-76.
6. B.A. Robinson, "Utah State Government's Inquiry into Ritual Crime", 2000-11-23, Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance webpage.
7. King, Michael R. (1995). "Ritual Crime in the State of Utah: Investigation, Analysis & A Look Forward" (PDF). New York Times. Retrieved 2007-11-20. {{cite news}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)
8. "Report Finds Little Proof of Ritual Abuse". Deseret News. 1995-04-25. Ritualist abuse of children may be occurring in Utah, but a two-year investigation by the Utah attorney general's office has concluded there is insufficient evidence 'to substantiate with physical evidence the incidents reported to them. Using the standard for criminal prosecution, investigators were unable to support the cases substantially to justify filing of criminal charges, and in some cases, the alleged incidents were beyond the statute of ... {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); Check date values in: |date= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help); Unknown parameter |urlhttp://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product= ignored (help)
9. "Satanism Probe Comes Up Empty". courtesy copy hosted by Satanic Media Watch. Associated Press. 1995-04-25. Retrieved 2007-11-20. An investigation by the Utah Attorney General's Office has failed to uncover any evidence of a satanic conspiracy to abuse and murder Utah children. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

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