Misplaced Pages

Serebriakova article

Well, I took up the challenge and cleaned up the article at least to some extent (given my total ignorance of either Serebriakova or Russian). I leave it to others to judge whether to untag it. Awien 22:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

4711

Does SB think 4711 is a year?

Hi, SB made this edit to We (novel). SB removed the link to 4711, which is an article about the Eau de Cologne number 4711. I have restored the link. What do you recommend to prevent a recurrence? --Jtir 18:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I've answered my own question. "4711" is a date per WP:DATE.

• "A page title that is just a positive whole number is always a year."

This guideline seems to be citing 4711 as a counter-example, however.

I'll see about getting the article renamed (and maybe fixing the guideline).

There is already a redirect from 4711 (brand), which would seem to be the preferred name.

--Jtir 07:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone had renamed "4711 (brand)" to "4711", so I reverted that. I also fixed the guideline. I believe this problem is resolved. --Jtir 09:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

You did the right thing. Rich Farmbrough, 10:19 21 May 2007 (GMT).

Karl Benz

If you'd read my comment, you'd see I was simpling moving the "trivia" section there for article integration. --The_stuart 22:32, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying your comment. I misunderstood it. --Jtir 22:39, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Good Will Hunting

Re: How would you interpret this phrase from the same paragraph?

• "...he talks about his wife..."

Not sure what you're getting at. Do you mean it shouldn't be his, since it's the wife of his character, not Williams himself? - Dudesleeper · Talk 19:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

chief designer

It is a well-known fact that his name was revealed to public only after his death, so you don't really have to worry to cite this detail right now. Maybe later, when you come across the citation, you may add it. wikipedia:Attribution does not require you to cite each and every statement. `'юзырь:mikka 20:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: Isaak Yaglom

All the biographical information I used is from the Russian Mathematical Surveys v.44 obituary listed in the references. Rgdboer 22:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

By the Waters of Babylon

(explanation follows if I don't pass out from exhaustion before I finish other chores) --Kizor 20:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Karl Benz article name and spellings in it changed to Carl

I notice that you have changed the article on Karl Benz to Carl Benz and am requesting that you return the article to its former title. This issue was discussed among many editors several years ago and resolved to use Karl as the spelling of the first name. I am providing a good deal of discussion below for you to realize why it was set as Karl and why of all of the many references to him in this encylopedia conform to that spelling.

1. Benz's last home, at Ladenburg, is used as the headquarters of the Gottlieb Daimler & '''Karl''' Benz Foundation, with many annual events held there.
2. Karl vs. Carl: Two spellings of Benz's first name can be found in places or institutions named after him. All of the official municipal registries show, Karl, such as on Benz's birth registration, his entry to the Polytechnikum, and his first patent (1879). At the end of the 19th century, however, the French spelling of names came into fashion in Germany and it seems that even Benz began to use, Carl, as seen in his 1882 patent or the Ladenburg company Benz Sons. At least, it was recorded as such—so Benz may have used both forms—or, perhaps the entries were made by others following the vogue. The German Orthographic Reform of 1901 generally replaced use of the French spelling, Carl, with the former German spelling convention, Karl, and DaimlerChrysler has adopted the use of the birth name spelling, using Karl Benz.

Since Karl Benz has been the convention used in Misplaced Pages for many years based upon the reasons cited above, please revert your change rather than beginning a protracted discussion and process regarding an issue that was settled several years ago. 83d40m 19:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I have copied this comment to Talk:Carl Benz to maintain context. --Jtir 20:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Robson

Hello. I'm working on Bobby Robson's article and would like to add what 'Bobby Robson' is in IPA. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Sir-Nobby 17:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm not at all qualified to do IPA transcriptions. User:Krsont, who is an expert, has helped me with them a few times. --Jtir 18:48, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks anyway. Sir-Nobby 18:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Straw_Poll

This relates to the text on the placement of footnotes which you helped to work out last month; you may wish to comment. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Roof construction

calling for tenders... can you take a look at the talk page for Roof and the above artivle and make comments/suggestions? Amandajm 16:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Belated "Thank you"

For your kindness and generosity when I helped with the cleanup of the Serebrikova article. I really appreciated it! Awien 22:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Chauvet

Thanks much for your work on the Chauvet article. It's good to have these dating disputes clarified and sourced. I keep hoping I'll have time to work on the general cave painting article and add sources. And to develop a couple of the other cave articles. The Cosquer and Font de Gaume articles could use some development. And it would be nice to create an article on La Marche. TimidGuy (talk) 16:50, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. As it happens, I only have the books by Clottes and Chauvet from the library, but I will keep your suggestions in mind. --Jtir (talk) 20:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Alexei Leonov

Why did I add that Leonov's airlock was inflatable? I was trying to emphasize that the troubles he had getting back into the capsule were likely due to a questionable design. My addition may have been somewhat questionable; I wouldn't be offended if you think the article is better off without it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peyre (talk • contribs) 18:12, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

"OK. Voskhod 2 goes into fascinating detail on this event. The major problem was that "Leonov’s Berkut suit ballooned". Maybe the airlock contributed, but the article, which is sourced, doesn't say so."

Fair enough. Most likely I've let myself get run away with the thought that an inflatable airlock just plain sounds dangerous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peyre (talk • contribs) 22:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

your end-section edits

Copyedit from my talk page:"Hi, I'm all in favor of regularizing end-sections, but your edits don't conform to WP:LAYOUT and introduce a Notes section without any notes. --Jtir (talk) 17:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)." Hi J, thanks for writing. Let me explain my reasoning here- I fully intend to place inline citations and reference sources in the various articles that do not have full sourcing. It's also an incentive for other editors to follow up and continue the work of providing verification. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 17:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC).

At this point, templates are useful for some editors but are entirely buggy and the ones used in the articles in question were for the American Psychiatric Association style guide which while used for some reference sources is not the usual standard for social history works, that being the Modern Language Association style guide which I incorporated in a "scratch" cataloging. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 18:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC).

Thanks for your note: As to the reasoning behind the use of bibliographic protocols, Misplaced Pages is mainly created by the efforts of countless editors worldwide. One of the first concerns was that in order to maintain professional standards in writing and research, assistance had to be provided to editors who did not have a background in academic or research writing. The "templates" were offered as a means of helping non-professionals in complex tasks. Citations in bibliographic format are difficult to cite for most editors in Misplaced Pages and the templates offer a solution. They are guides not policy and are useful up to a point but even now, there are many errors in their format and the use of templates brings in a question as to which style guide is being followed. As an author and a 30-year+ librarian, I have been exposed to many differing styles and formats. Most publishing style guides utilize the MLA (The Modern Language Association) Style for identifying research sources. The very simple form of this style is the tried and true: "Author. 'Title.' Place of publication: Publisher, Date. ISBN: (optional)." The academic or scientific citation style that you have adopted is not generally used in school, public and other libraries. See the following website (one of countless digital aids available) for a primer on this bibliographic standard: <style guides> Many of the Wiki templates are written in a APA (American Psychological Association) style guide which is a simplified format that often is used in university and scholarly works although it is not as widely accepted as the MLA guide.

This is the reference guide you may wish to use: "Formatting of a Misplaced Pages article reference list is a secondary detail, and there is currently no consensus on a precise prescribed citation format in Misplaced Pages." MLA style is the most widely accepted style in the world and certainly is accepted in Misplaced Pages. Since I do Misplaced Pages editing as a diversion from my other work, I tend to spend little time and give articles only a cursory examination. If there is a very minor error such as a misplaced comma, I "tweak" the article and I don't usually elaborate on the change since it will show up in the history note on the article. As for citations, I rely on the MLA (Modern Language Association) style which is the world's most common bibliographic style and one that is accepted by Misplaced Pages. I have been utilizing this citation style in my own writing and in the cataloging that I carried out in my other life as a librarian. I know that the standard today for library cataloging is to simply download an entire MARC (MAchine Readable Cataloging) record from an established library but I continued to be a curmudgeon and relied on "scratch" editing which I still apply to Misplaced Pages work today. Basically it follows the old format of: Author. Title. Place of Publication: Publisher, Date of publication (with variations to satisfy ordering and researching stipulations, usually ended by including an ISBN (international standard book number) and at times, page references). There are some subtle variations of the MLA style to facilitate multiple authors, articles, multimedia and other questions. Sorry for being verbose but I will make a point of stopping to clarify some of my edits but when it's merely a spelling, sentence or grammatical error, I will still give it a "tweak."

Let me further explain my use of references. I am a former librarian with 33 years experience in cataloguing and I tend to revert to "scratch" cataloging whenever I am working in Misplaced Pages. The format chosen for the majority of templates for citations and bibliographies is the American Psychiatric Association (APA) style guide which is one of the most used formats for research works. The most commonly used style guide is the Modern Language Association (MLA) which is the style guide I tend to use. Templates are not mandated in Misplaced Pages and many editors use full edit cataloging or scratch cataloging since it does away with the variances in some of the templates extant. As a matter of form, a number of articles have also utilized the Harvard Citation style guide as a link to the bibliographical reference. The actual format that I have used is to provide full cataloging in MLA style for a citation if it only appears once in the text as a quote or note and if more than one instance, then Harvard Citation is placed inline and a full bibliographical MLA record is provided in "References." The references area is kind of a catch-all in that it can often incorporate endnotes and footnotes if there are only a few citations. Many editors prefer to provide a "Notes" and "References" section. It is presumed that if entries are made in the references list that the reference source is used for corroboration in writing the article. In some instances wherein an editor identifies a useful source of information that was not part of the research than a "Further Reading" section can be established. In the "Reggiane Re.2000" article, any instances of two citations were placed in Harvard Citation style while all others were set forth in MLA style in the references section. There is no need to re-do an MLA entry into a APA style, in fact, it is most often preferable not to mix formats or style guides for consistency and readability.

I know that your eyes have probably glazed over long ago, but that is the rationale behind my editing in citation/reference notes. The "true style" is actually to use one consistent style guide (I choose the MLA as it is the standard worldwide for research articles) and adapt it when needed. As to the exact citation in question, it should have been written in the traditional "Author. "Title". Place of publication: Publisher, year." convention but being adapted to an electronic/digital source of information. FWIW, you may have to read this note in the edit mode in order to see what I have done to the citations. Bzuk (talk) 18:11, 12 January 2008 (UTC).

Your contribution to the "Overlinking" Question between RWinn and BZuk

Thanks for your suggestion (13 Jan). I did not know of that WIKI resource, and it was helpful when I did access it. I responded to BZuk (see his TALK page if you are interested). Thanks again Raymondwinn (talk) 23:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Metasyntactic variable

Thanks for helping on the cleanup of this article, it was a disaster. I do not believe that the Kernighan example of foo is sufficient to give an example of the use of a metasyntactic variable and a more complete code snippet would be better. That example in fact is about the use of local and global variables. Mabey an example in BASIC would be one better still. Let me know your thoughs. Also why delete relevant and properly cited information, especially on a very short page relating to an advanced concept. A lot of "googling" to find references went into keeping as much relevant info from the "Pre Cleanup Taskforce" page.

 kf4yfd (talk) 14:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I've copied this to Talk:Metasyntactic variable to maintain context. --Jtir (talk) 14:40, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Graf Spee book

That book seems to have had more titles than most other books. Yes, the first publication (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1956) was just called Graf Spee. The first American edition (New York, Rinehart, 1957) was called Death in the South Atlantic; the last voyage of the Graf Spee. It was another British edition (London : White Lion Publishers, 1976) that was called The Last Voyage of the Graf Spee I think we'd better put them all in or someone else is liable to correct them -- SteveCrook (talk) 10:17, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's an excellent solution. Great portrait with the article, BTW. --Jtir (talk) 13:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Use of ISBNs

Hi J, just to clarify a point about bibliographical sourcing in references, the use of ISBN is actually considered secondary and is merely a means of identifying a source for purchase. Most publications do not even list ISBNs in a bibliography due to the confusing variety of ISBNs that can be generated for an individual title when second editions, new publishers and a variety of re-printings requires new ISBNs which is the abbreviation for International Standard Book Number, a convention that was actually created by British publishers in 1966 and is now in its second configuration: ISBN:13 as opposed to the original ISBN:10. The newer format was instituted in 2005 but not as a "clear-cut" replacement for the earlier format so it is often an added notation. I add ISBNs as a matter of course but you will see many editors on Misplaced Pages that simply discard them or not include them in citations or bibliographies. Since they are not required, (see WP:REF) most editors ignore them. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 15:02, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

"citing sources for references" Copyedit from my talk page:"Your solution looks good.

You wrote: "The use of inline external links is discouraged". In the article body, certainly. However, WP articles must leave the site somewhere and that is at the sources. When a source is a book without an ISBN, a citation provides a way for a reader (or editor) to verify that the source is correctly described. (And it would be silly to provide a Note citing the source of a source.)

For example, I have found several early translations of We (novel) by searching various national libraries. I have documented my source for each by appending an exlink to the library or a permalink to a bibrec at the library (unfortunately, some libraries don't seem to support permalinks). The bibrec at the library is my source for the reference in the article.

As another example, in Malleus Maleficarum the references include a 1520 edition held by the University of Sydney Library. I included that edition because the image used to illustrate the article is from the USL. There is an annotated exlink to the bibrec at the library.

Quoting WP:REF: "Say where you found the material".
IMO, that applies to references too. (I am not overly concerned with citing sources for books that have ISBNs, because the wiki software converts ISBNs to links that lead to the lists at WP:Booksources).

--Jtir (talk) 16:02, 20 January 2008 (UTC)"

All that is fine however, ISBNs are not considered part of the bibliographic record, not even as an option. What we have done at Misplaced Pages is primarily an "invented" form. The onus on providing a bibliographic record is on the initial submitter and although we have "cobbled up" a kind of reference source in the Boeing 247 article, it certainly wouldn't pass muster as a standard record. ISBNs were created merely as ordering information for dumb librarians such as myself but even then they are an imprecise and complicated "tidbit" of information. As you can see in my notes and revisions, I adapted your edit as I am loathe to actually revert a "good faith" edit. BTW, I really enjoy our exchanges because it does keep me "sharp." IMHO Bzuk (talk) 16:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

Your reference to WP:REF: "Say where you found the material" has led to some peculiar reference statements. I recall one author indicated which library he had found the book, another editor noted all the dates and times he read the books and other reference materials in the reference record, and there are other numerous instances of editors taking great care in listing every single edition, reprint, new publisher, ad infinitum. As I discussed earlier, ISBN is strictly optional and is still treated that way by publishers and Misplaced Pages alike. FWIW, the standard is actually to list the most recent rather than the original edition. Bzuk (talk) 23:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

i see your point with that...however, i think WP:LOW is the reference that deals specifically with lists of works including bibliographies. --emerson7 22:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The Right Stuff (book) and The Right Stuff (film)

Being mostly a writer/editor rather than a aficionado in the black arts of the WikiWacky world, meaning I really don't know how to do a "dab" page. If you could do it, I will look over your shoulder. Thanks. FWIW I am sending the same message to another editor who also commented on the change in the Right Stuff articles. Bzuk (talk) 23:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC).

I have rewritten a large part of the The Right Stuff (film). Can you take a look at it? FWIW Bzuk (talk) 06:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC).

Agree about the refactor. I was just on Wiki for a moment during my lunch break. Please refactor however you feel is best and I'll check back in this evening. (I'm excited to see some other editors doing good work on a Tom Wolfe article. It had been lonely around those parts!) --JayHenry (talk) 18:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

links on dab page

For instance, sometimes I'm searching for a reference to something, and I can't latch onto it, but I've got an idea about something it's related to, and I go to that article and I find there a reference which puts me on the right track. It makes no sense to denude Misplaced Pages of what makes it so valuable -- links -- on a page whose entire purpose is to act as a guide to where to go for the confused.

So do me a favor, leave it be. Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 05:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The Right Stuff disambig page

Hi Jtir. My thought about why the current page isn't exactly right is that all of the disambig pages that I have created or worked with read Subject (disambiguation). I know that this makes the {{otheruses}} tag work better but I could be wrong in thinking that it is required. I posted this here so that it wouldn't get lost in the middle of the rest of the discussion on the talk page that we have already been posting on. Thanks for your time and happy editing. MarnetteD | Talk 23:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you for the advice and welcome, Jtir. Appreciate it. (Mountain Goat (talk) 18:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC))

NP. --Jtir (talk) 19:01, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Room 101

Hiya Jtir! I've spotted the fact tag you left on the statement about Erich Mielke. I've just added a reference to , which includes the text below :

'The people of the GDR lived through their own private Nineteen Eighty-Four every single day. Funder describes Orwell's book as "like a manual for the GDR, right down to the most incredible detail". The party, if not the proles, knew that very well. She remembers that the much-dreaded Stasi chief Erich Mielke even managed to renumber the offices in the secret-service headquarters. "His office was on the second floor, so all the office numbers started with '2'. Orwell was banned in the GDR, but he would have had access to it. Because he so wanted the room number to be 101, he had the entire first floor renamed the mezzanine, and so his office was Room 101."'

Please contact me if you feel this needs further discussion, ok? :) Nanobot recurve (talk) 09:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I've had another little look at google, all the claims I can find of Erich Mielke being an Orwell fan (so far, I've yet to examine all of the german language text via google translate yet) seem based on this blog post , interpreting the quote from stasiland. I feel you'd have some issues with its usefulness as a font of academic knowledge. I'll see if I can find anything else over the next few days, but I suspect this is about as far as websearching is going to get on this subject. Oh well, at least there's a little new supporting material there, yes? Nanobot recurve (talk) 16:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Using Named Ref Tags

I was aware of that, but decided to leave the information in anyway, people sometimes make mistakes and I thought having the information to hand would be helpful in case someone made a boo-boo when editing an article ( having to restart your edit, or open another copy of the article to find what you erased is a pain in the bum when you slip up ). Sorry if this intepretation is causing problems. Nanobot recurve (talk) 16:51, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

ODITLOID

See ODITLOID link for reply on stalin citation thingy LOTRrules (talk) 21:15, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Again see reply on ODITLOID LOTRrules (talk) 22:15, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Ref tags and punctuation marks

The move of refs is a WP:AWB "general fix". For the last few months I have had GF's turned of because they were implementing {{Reflist}} which I disagree with. I had turned them on with the latest release of AWB, but they're off again awaiting some bug-fixes. So... all AWB bots with GF turned on will correct those, whether you carry on manually, is up to you. I suppose I could do a run to fix the problem specifically once AWB is re-fixed... Rich Farmbrough, 15:39 5 February 2008 (GMT).

Spaces... again this is an AWB GF feature. Personally I think this is a good spacing regeime, but certainly there are a lot of AWB users out there implementing it. Incidentally statistics were gathered some time ago showing that this is the preferred spacing of editors (by use), although MOS is neutral on the subject. Rich Farmbrough, 16:32 5 February 2008 (GMT).

Guardian Angel

I never knew what it was like until now, to have someone follow my every move, and be there to help and correct me when I need it. I feel so safe! Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) 17:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I just wanted to let you know that this editor has been wreaking havoc with a bunch of dab pages I've worked on. He seems to think that his style of bolding links and putting it lots of whitespace is more preferable than MOS:DAB. Just FYI, since you seem to have some experience dealing with him. 128.208.53.45 (talk) 10:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your contributions. Please consider registering. You can read about the advantages here: Why create an account? --Jtir (talk) 16:14, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Guardian Angel, watch over me! Ed Fitzgerald (unfutz) —Preceding comment was added at 10:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

1984

Please do not revert my legitimate edit. Kuralyov (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, there was no edit summary indicating that this was intended to be a sort key and it looked like the kind of typo I see when using WP:AWB. I have fixed it here. --Jtir (talk) 14:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

nice work on your link checker

Hi, I saw your "shameless self-plug" and gave it a try. I knew about those redirects, but had never bothered to update them. (Actually, I tested it first on Andrew Sullivan, which is a real mess, but decided not to make any changes for lack of knowledge or interest.) I was so impressed that I added a more detailed description here. One quirk I noticed is that the "Show preview" and "Show changes" buttons seem to work the first time only. --Jtir (talk) 22:43, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

You've hit on some important issues, we really shouldn't be changing redirects as those might be "permalink" redirect to where ever the content is. However, the HTTP protocol specifies multiple types of redirects, the most used 301 and 302. In the former it is recommend that site update the URL to using the new address. Contrast with the latter in which it is optional and should be reviewed by the operator. Unfortunately, there are users who blindly change it to soft-404 pages. Most of the redirect the program deal with are add or removing the www. part in front. If it were up to me, I would remove it from every URL possible as it introduces DNS resolution problems.

One of the things that overlooked quite often is that the tool handles wayback machine archiveurls. It seems I'll have to write a section in the documentation before anybody notices them. The quirk you had noticed was actually a feature where you could open multiple pages without closing the former window, disabled that now. — Dispenser 04:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the subtle distinctions between the 301 and 302 status codes. I wasn't really aware of them. I may have made a mistake in changing those exlinks, which were returning 302. They were to Bandalore's site and after looking again at the discussion he seems to have the domain myersnorth.co.uk. NP re the "quirk", I was happy to get a familiar WP edit window. --Jtir (talk) 17:53, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: deletion of stills from Metropolis (film)

Hi, you deleted two images that were stills from Metropolis (film) without any warning on the article's talk page. I believe they could be used by claiming fair use in that article and would have added the required info if I had been warned. BTW, I would prefer that a Bot do image removals, because they leave warning messages automatically.

This is a request to restore these images for use in Metropolis (film) under fair use:

• Image:Metropolis-new-tower-of-babel.jpg
• Image:Clocks-from-metropolis.png

--Jtir (talk) 14:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm gonna have to disagree with you on the bot thing, because I never delete any image that hasn't had some deletion tag on it for at least 7 days, and it doesn't look like a bot gave any warning on the article talk page when someone tagged the two stills. I'll restore them for and update the tags with today's date, but if they don't have the proper info by this time next week I (or some other admin) will delete them again. Melesse (talk) 01:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

MiG-21

Yes. This is MiG-21PFM #4106 of Polish Air Force with insignia of 10th Fighter Reg. from Łask, near Łódź (not existing anymore, replaced on 1 Jan 2001 by 10th Tactical Sqn. and 32nd AF Base) currently on display in Museum of Armament (Muzeum Uzbrojenia) in Fort Winiary (better known as Cytedela) in Poznań, Poland. Radomil talk 11:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ach, and insignia - this is black dragon - emblem of 1st Flight of 10th Fighter Reg. Radomil talk 12:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well. Each basic unit (currently Squadron, formely Regiment) of PAF has symbol, like those:

• - 3rd Tactical Sqn. (formerly 3rd Fighter Reg.) - raven
• - 7th Tactical Sqn. (formerly 7th Bomber-Reconnaissance Reg.) - fox with bomb
• - 1st Tactical Sqn (formerly 1st Fighter Reg.) - winged marmate
• - 41st Tactical Sqn. (formerly 41st Fighter Reg.) - knight
• - 13th Transport Squadron (formerly 13th Transport Reg.) - green dragon in "Cracow hat".

And others..

And this is detailed image of this dragon of 10th Reg., with lightning in one hand and shield in shape of PAF chessboard faced with coat of Arms of Łask: .

Radomil talk 22:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)