Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:36, 12 February 2008

archive 1

Criticism

Why has all criticism been deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.150.96.2 (talk) 13:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Psychological changes in converts

Andries, would you care to summarize the first part of that section (Jeanne's Messer's material)?. It is way to long IMO and could be nicely summarized in one long paragraph (I can do it if you want, but I give you first choice as it is your addition). Thanks. --Zappaz 04:16, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bhajans

I was not aware that DLM members sang bhajans too, apart from aarti. Please provide reference, otherwise I will revert. Andries 16:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I already reverted because the edit about bhajans struck me as blatant nonsense about the non-Indian branch of the DLM. It can be re-inserted after providing references. Feel free to create a section on the Indian branch of the DLM. We should by the way also write something about the Prem Nagar ashram. Andries 17:17, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

I think that I was wrong about the bhajans. Andries 14:59, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

New cite format

I will move all references to the new cite format in the next few days. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @

Deletions

Any deletions of material that have been in an article for months, without any explanation in this page about the reasosn, will be reverted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:17, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

• I think that the digressions about the different versions of arti are largely irrelevant. They are a side issue for this article and should be moved to arti if they should be in Misplaced Pages at all. Andries 14:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
• The link to the article past teachings of Prem Rawat should be removed because that article is in a disastrous state. Linking to that article makes this article worse. Andries 14:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that the material on Arti is irrelevant. If an article is in "a disastrous shape", help fix it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:12, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The digression about arti should not be here. How can you seriously doubt this? And if it should be here then at least provide references. But even after you provide references then I will continue to argue for either its deletion or its move to arti. Andries 15:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

What is exactly the problem with that material? Can you please explain? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

It digresses on an issue that is largely irrelevant for the DLM. It devotes three sentences to a general treatment of Arti. I can understand a treatment of Arti in the DLM, but the article does not do that. It gives a general treatment of arti that is totally out of place here. Andries 15:25, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I will find the references you request, but there is no need to add {{fact}} to each word in a sentence (LOL!). TaKe a deep breath, Andries! ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:33, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, I will continue to argue for its move to arti, regardless if references are provided, with the exception of statements that are specific for the arti version used in the DLM or statements that describe how arti is performed in the DLM. Andries 15:51, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Why? Why text related to Aarti cannot be discussed here? I have a hard time understanding your motives. Please explain. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:53, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Because general articles should treat general subjects. I mean, this article is about the DLM and should only treat arti as it relates to the DLM and not digress about arti in general. For the same reason we do not mention criticism of communism in an article about an individual communist. This sounds to me so logical and natural that I really do not understand that anybody can disagree with this. Is this so difficult to understand or am I misssing something? Andries 16:08, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I see absolutely nothing wrong in providing context for readers. Most readers know nothing about arti, so I see no problem in a few words explaining what arti is, and how it is used in India. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:43, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

If you want to provide some context for the ignorant reader then provide the short Misplaced Pages definition or explain how Aarti and which version is used in the DLM. Do not digress on side issues. Andries 17:01, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I did not speak of the "ignorant" reader. That is abusive to our readers and I would suggest you refactor that comment. Providing context is our duty as editor os Misplaced Pages. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:10, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Arti

After I short visit to the library, I found that there are many, many versions of Arti, and vbery big differenes it applies to Hinduism a and Sikihsm. I ask for some patience until I gather all the material. It is very pertient to this article, because it is assumed that the arti sung to Maharaji is the same as Hinduism arti, but this is not the case. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:30, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Next time, I will use the same standards with you. Any material that you add that you do not provide references within 15 days, will be mercilessly deleted. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 16:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Fifteen days is a lot: I have only 48 hours at Sathya Sai Baba and it will be clear that I considered the missing references a good excuse to remove a digression that I found off-topic. Andries 17:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

As an ex-member of the cult, DLM, having been in it from 81 to 85 I can confirm that Arti existed in several variations - the original translation from Hindi used in the cult was done by Guru Charanand, one of Maharaji's main early followers. Several other versions emerged,and the song, which could take 20 minutes to sing in full, was often abridged. Some problematic verses, iee, those referring to Guru Maharaj Ji as father/Mother, etc, were sometimes avoided,a nd the whole song was abandoned in western Ashrams after about 1984. User:arthurchappell

Pat Halley?

I have removed the Pat Halley section as it has nothing to do with Divine Light Mission.Momento 22:16, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

That was one of the most widely published incidents in the history of Prem Rawat and the DLM. Where do you want to put? I do not accept its deletion from Misplaced Pages. Andries 22:38, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Marc Galanter

I think that this is a different marc Galanter. Galanter is a psychiatrist. Andries 01:20, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Then find a bio and disambiguate the article. Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:28, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe this one is? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:30, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes. This may be the one. See . Pleas ehelp write a short bio and disambiguate . Thanks. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:31, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Marc Galanter, M.D is one and the same in both links above, but not the Wiki article subject "Marc Galanter," who is a law professor (also in NY). FYI, there are excerts on EPO from Galanter's book, Cults: Faith Healing and Coercion chapter titled A Charismatic Religious Sect The Divine Light Mission. That book was published in 1989 and a 2nd edition was published in 1999. Galanter also published Spirituality and the Healthy Mind in 2005. Galanter has edited and written books published by American Psychiatric Publishing, as well as by Oxford Univ. Press. Galanter is the Director of the Division of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse and Professor of Psychiatry at New York University Medical Center in New York. Sylviecyn 15:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Andries and I found two Marc Galanter's Marc Galanter and Marc Galanter (MD). The one cited in this article is Marc Galanter (MD). 16:01, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I said above, but hadn't noticed that you created the Galanter, MD stub on May 14, 2006. Sylviecyn 13:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge issue

Object to merging "Past teachings" into this article. See comments on Talk:Prem Rawat. Sylviecyn 14:14, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Some duplication in the references

Refs and were the same as and . I tried to cure the problem by dropping the last two sentences from the Beliefs section. If I over-corrected, please fix. Note that there is STILL a duplication in the text (regarding the name change to Elan Vital) but it's between the introductory paragraph and the Evolution section at the end, which appears less serious. The whole article leaves a person wondering what happened after 1983. Does anyone feel like bringing the story down to the present day? Also references through appear to be telling the story of his accession to guruship over and over again, in similar wording, and with little difference, and it is not clear that this is necessary. Perhaps a few of these could be dropped, but I'm not the one to do it. EdJohnston 02:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Hummel

I consolidated the source into one ref, as it was all from same book; attributed the text to Hummel rather than asserting his opinion as fact; corrected some spelling mistakes and grammar. I also removed the mention of Prem's brother as it was unsourced. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)ö

Fine. I think that there are still some grammar mistakes in the entry. I also have to add some diacritics to the German original. Andries 20:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure about this translation? "the 'mind' was declared the main enemy of direct religious experience. " ≈ jossi ≈

(talk) 21:38, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I admit that the translation of the sentence is incomplete

German original "Der junge Guru erklärt das konzeptionelle Denken, das auch in Deutschen Übersetzungen mit dem Englischen Wort >>mind<< bezeichnet wird, als Hauptfeind der unmittelbaren religösen Erfahrung."

English translation: "The young guru explains that the main enemy of direct religious experience is thinking in concepts that is called with the English word "mind" also in German translations."

My German is pretty basic and all I read there is something about "conceptional thinking". I hope that this is just a honest mistake, and not a POV interpretation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I admit that my translation should have included the equation of "Mind"=conceptional Thinking/Thinking in Concepts. Andries 21:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the problem Andries, because the Hummel quote confirms Rawat's own teachings, when he always said that the enemy of every premie is their mind and the concepts it produces, especially about himself and Knowledge. It's especially appropriate for the DLM article because when Elan Vital was DLM, the problematic "mind" was the main subject of discussion (satsangs) Sylviecyn 23:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, if there is an objection to having this quote here, perhaps it would be better placed in the main Rawat article under teachings. Sylviecyn 23:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

No one has a problem with Hummel's quote but several editors have a problem with Andries' inaccurate translation.Momento 01:49, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Otherwise is misleading. "Conceptual thinking" is considered antithesis of inner experiences, which by their nature are not related to intellect. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a good example of why we should avoid foreign language sources altogether. The author is referring to other existing translations of Prem Rawat's words. He says: "The young guru has declared that conceptual thinking (which has been called by the English word 'mind' even in German translations) is the main enemy of a direct religious experience." There is no word in German for "mind" but most English-speaking readers would not know that, so this sentence, and others like it, are not translatable without ambiguity and confusion unless you put in a bunch of explanatory footnotes. Let's not. Rumiton 13:56, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Also the word Lehre in this context would be better translated as "doctrine." There was no systematic doctrine. There most certainly were systematic "teachings" as the German author well knew. They were the Knowledge. Rumiton 14:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I think "teachings" is a better translation of "Lehre" than "doctrine". Andries 05:27, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Rumiton. The inaccurate translations are unacceptable. I'm also concerned that Hummel, Melton, Kronenberg, van der Lans and Derks? are all ordained Christian ministers. It may be necessary to preface their comments with "Rawat was closely studied by Christian scholars who concluded....." and then combine their comments. It is starting to look like undue weight and bias.Momento 21:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That could be done, I see no harm in that. Note that many scholars of religion and theologians, but not all, come from one or another faith. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a good way to go. Nice and neutral. Rumiton 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted Andries last edit because it was ungrammatical and because this is an article about DLM not Hummel or Prem Rawat or his father.Momento 10:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You reverted to a misleading version.

1. Hummel was not the leader of the EZW when his 1980 book was published. The relevant context reg. Hummel is that the quoted book was based on research at the Heidelberg uni, not so much that he was a pastor or that he later became the leader of the EZW.

2. Of course the philosophical and religious influences on Hans, the founder of the sect, are very relevant to this entry.

Andries 17:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

When I revert an ungrammatical and bloated edit, I do not have to certify that the proceeding version is correct. What you should be doing Andries is making grammatical, accurate and appropriate edits. Your last one wasn't.Momento 21:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Lehre. Andries, my Collins German-English Comprehensive Dictionary allows both meanings, but in the Ecclesiastical sense, which is Hummel's genre, it gives doctrine only. I believe to use "teachings" creates an absurdity. Of course things were taught, if only the words of songs. This is the point. Wars have started over the correct translation of words. I could give you many 20th Century examples, and you could probably think of others. This is an English language website, and we are having enough problems with agreeing on the meanings and intentions of English words. No doubt someone important wrote something once in Cantonese about Prem Rawat. Who can say exactly what it means? Let's not go to other languages.

Has anyone seen Vassyana lately? Rumiton 11:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Rumiton, I know enough to be able to compare the DLM's teachings with the teachings of other religious groups and Hummel is fully right regarding the lack of systematic teachings in the DLM. In other groups, meditation techniques are only a small part of a large and systematic set of teachings. Andries 05:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I did not notice ecclesiastical language in Hummel's book. Andries 16:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Vassyana reported some massive computer problems early April. No word from him/her since. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:52, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

From Hummel, Reinhart Indische Mission und neue Frömmigkeit im Westen. Religiöse Bewegungen in westlichen Kulturen, Stuttgart 1980, ISBN 3-17-005609-3,

pp.76-77: "Eine systematisch entwickelte Lehre hat die Divine Light Mission weder zur Zeit des Vaters Śhrī Hans noch des Sohnes besessen. Beide haben darin eher einen Vorzug als einen Mangel gesehen. Hatte der Vater sich vornehmlich als >>Guru der Armen<< verstanden und sich in einer bilderreichen Sprache mehr um praktische Anwendbarkeit als um theoretische Durchdringung bemüht, so blieb doch der Inhalt seiner Satsangs auf dem Hintergrund der Hinduistischen Tradition klar verständlich. Die Satsangs jedoch, die der Sohn im Westen gehalten hat und die mit einem Minimum hinduistischer Terminologie und Konzepte auskommen, müssen für den nichthinduistischen Hörer vage bleiben. Der junge Guru erklärt das konzeptionelle Denken, das auch in deutschen Übersetzungen mit dem englischen Wort >>mind<< bezeichnet wird, als Hauptfeind der unmittelbaren religösen Erfahrung. So ist es nicht verwunderlich, daβ von seinen Anhängern nur wenig Handfestes über die DLM-lehre zu erfahren ist. Andererseits eröffent ihnen der Mangel an vorgegebenen Konzepten einen Freiraum für Äuβerungen einer spontanen Subjektivität, die wohltuend vom unselbständigen Reproduzieren autoritativ verkündenter Lehren absticht, wie man es vor allem dei den Anhängern der ISKCON antrifft. Wie auch immer die Bewertung ausfallen mag - die geistige Konturlosigkeit der Bewegung fällt allen Beobachtern auf.
Im Zentrum steht bei Vater und Sohn die vierfache Meditationstechnik, die vier >>Kriyas<<, die Sri Hans von Svami Sarupanand gelernt hatte. "

"

pp.78: "Innerhalb dieses eklektischen Denken dominiert der Einfluβ der in Nordindien beheimaten Sant-Tradition, der schon in der Geschichte des Radhasoami Satsang wirksam war. Von ihr bestimmt ist die Ablehnung äußerlicher Rituale und Zeremonien und die Forderung, das Göttliche im eigenen Inneren zu suchen; damit verbunden die Polemik gegen den Trennenden Charakter der in Äuβerlichkeiten estarrten Religionen und gegen die Kastentrennung; ferner die Ablehnung der Askese zugunsten des Lebens im Stande des Haushalters, wie Sri Hans es selbst geführt hat; die Ablehnung der Bilderverehrung und die Konzentration auf den Guru als die Manifestation des Göttlichen; "

Hello Andries. I am getting interested in Hummel's work, mainly because Lutheran ideology intrigues and horrifies me. I am in some doubt as to the meaning of the excerpt you give because of the many mispellings. eg your "had" could be either hat or hatte. Sorry to seem fussy, but would you mind going through and correcting the typos? Thank you. Rumiton 11:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I will check the type-errors. Andries 11:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I can also translate but this will take some time. Andries 12:14, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Give it to me typo-free and I will do a translation. Then we can compare. I do see more what you are saying about Hummel from this longer excerpt. Rumiton 13:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I just removed a few of my type-errors, though your main problem may be the German original. Andries 14:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

No need for sarcasm. I just read the above and I take back what I said. I kind of like the guy. I'll try to get a translation done tomorrow night. Rumiton 16:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I was not sarcastic. Andries 18:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

This isn't perfect, but I think it shows the tone of Hummel's writing.

pp76-77. Neither in the time of the father, Shri Hans, nor in that of the son, did the Divine Light Mission possess a systematically developed set of teachings. Both saw as presenting more problems than advantages. Although the father saw himself primarily as the Guru of the Poor, and his imaginative speeches (Andries A.: discourses that were rich in metaphors) were more concerned with practical applications than with saturated theory (Andries A.: penetrating theory), yet his satsangs could always be understood against a background of Hindu tradition. But the satsangs that his son held in the west, which he managed with a minimum of Hindu terms and concepts, still remain vague for the non-Hindu listener. The young Guru explains that conceptual thinking, translated with the English word “mind” in German translations also, is the main enemy of direct religious experience. It is therefore hardly surprising that little firm information about DLM teachings can be obtained from his followers. On the other hand, the lack of professed concepts allows them a freedom of expression which is spontaneous and personal, and which makes an agreeable contrast with the unexamined reproduction of received teachings which one especially finds in the devotees of Iskcon. However they may judge the group, the lack of conceptual boundaries in the movement is clear to all observers. (Andries A.: Whatever judgment one may have about the movement, its spiritual lack of contours is clear to all observers.)

In central position with both father and son stand the four meditation techniques, the kriyas, which Shri Hans learned from Swami Sarupanand.

P78. Within this eclectic thinking, the influence of the Sant tradition from Northern India, which was strong in the history of Radhasoami Satsang, was dominant. This is certainly the origin of the rejection of external rituals and ceremonies, and the call to seek God within oneself. Connected with this was the argument against the divisive nature of ossified, externally based religions and the caste system. (Andries A.:Related with this was his rhetoric against the divisive nature of religions that were fossilized in show and the caste system.) Further, the rejection of asceticism in favour of the life of the householder, which Shri Hans himself led, the refusal to worship images, and the concentration on the Guru as the manifestation of the divine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rumiton (talk • contribs)

Thanks, Rumiton, for the translation. I would argue that the current edit uses selectively Hummel's words. Please try and summarize Hummels views in a more accurate way than currently depicted in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I have some problems (may be it is just taste differences) with the translation. I will write my alternative translation of some sentences with (Andries A.: ) within Rumiton's text. Andries 19:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Andries. I agree you are right about "rich in metaphores." The word metaphore did not come to me, for some reason. "...geistige Konturlosigkeit" is difficult, but I don't believe "spiritual lack of contours" is correct. Geistig is quite a precise word, and here means something more like "mental" or "intellectual." Spiritual is so vague as to be almost meaningless. I shall do some more tonight. Rumiton 03:52, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Andries, can you supply me with Hummel's German text for the assertion that Hans was "influenced by the Bhagavad Gita," and this gave him an "emphasis on the practical life." Thank you. Rumiton 06:08, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is in the history of the article. I still have to check for spelling. Please all be careful not to remove it again.

page 74 "Seine eigene Position wird durch seine haufige Berufung auf Kabir, Nanak, Mira Bai und andere Heilige des Sant-Tradition, sowie auf die Bhagavad Gita deutlich. Von der ersteren stammt eine Reduktion des Hinduismus auf die innere Realisierung des Gottlichen und die Guruverehrung, von der letzteren seine Betonung des Praktischen Lebens."

Andries 05:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Andries. I can certainly see how the Sants might have influenced him, but I am a bit bewildered how anyone might obtain an "emphasis on the practical life" from the Bhagavad Gita. But he said it, we quote it. Rumiton 11:05, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Not difficult to understand at all for me. The Bhagavad Gita put emphasis on fulfilling wordly duties as a sacrifice to Krishna. Krishna told Arjuna to fight because this was his wordly duty and that this was superior to life as an ascetic. Andries 19:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I see what you mean, but I have always read that story as a parable. Killing off your friends and relatives to mean stamping out beloved negative tendencies, anger, hatred, lust etc. Rumiton 12:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Just because he said it, doesn't mean we quote it. There are hundreds of pages of scholastic material on Rawat. The editors job is to reduce 100's of pages to a page or two that represents the total. Commonly held views by several scholars take precedence over one scholar's unshared opinion.Momento 20:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Also please the section where Hummel refers to Hans' "reduction of Hinduism." Thanks. Rumiton 10:30, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

And Haan's quoted text, especially about western DLM operating "to the expense of the social side." I can read basic Dutch, but I'll get a Dutch friend to have a look over it. Thanks. Rumiton 11:25, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It is on page 44, 45 of his article. Please give me more time. Andries 12:06, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Kranenborg wrote more or less the same as Haan about the neglect of social work in the West, but more strongly worded and in a more critical tone. Andries 12:12, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Jeanne Messer

Who is Jeanne Messer? and why is she described as a "follower" ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/13372.html http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/13373.html http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/posts/13374.htmlAndries 16:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

What? Since when can you make assertions based on hearsay in a chat room? Please do not use these as sources to assert these opinions. You know very well that these type of edits are totally unacceptable. I have also removed some of these links above as per BLP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:32, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

If you do not want to hear the answer then please do not ask questions. Andries 17:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That flippant answer does not address the concern I raised about your editing behavior, Andries. Do not add material to articles based on unreliable sources, period. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I get the message. She is probably introduced in the book by Glock and Bellah as a premie. Andries 18:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

More ungrounded speculation? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Deprogramming

What is the reference for stating that "deprogrammed" ex-members became "vocal critics" of the organisation? Rumiton 13:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Also, does anyone know what a "Pretap" is? Rumiton 13:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

It's a typo for PremPal. "Vocal critics" is Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Prem_Rawat/scholarsMomento 19:31, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Messer

Found a whole lot of Messer "Guru Maharaj,li and the Divine Light Mission," in Robert Bellah and Charles Glock, eds., The New Religious Consciousness (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1976), pp. 54-55,' and put it here - http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Prem_Rawat/scholars#Jeanne_Messer Momento 06:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Clean up

This article needs an over haul, it has lost its way. It should be about DLM, not Rawat's teachings etc. It is also lacking in sources, cites and balance. I'm going to start on it.Momento 04:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

The first thing to go is the Haley pie incident. This article is about DLM not the atypical behaviour of two followers out of 50,000.Momento 04:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

God, yes. What a convoluted mess. What happened here? The Beliefs and Practices section seems to be more about philosophers, preachers and parsons than about DLM. I'll help too. Rumiton 07:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Made a start at cleaning up. Needs more polishing and readability.Momento 00:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I've done some changes, too. It's still a bit verbose, I think. Rumiton 15:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

There seems a lot of added material that doesn't have any sources.Momento 21:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Where do you mean? Rumiton 02:56, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

"Around this time the anti-cult movement was reaching its peak, and new religious movements were seen as participating in mind control of adherents. Kidnapping of adult sect members with physical and mental assault was taking place, and was often seen as justified, even by courts. Following this treatment, several deprogrammed ex-members became vocal critics of the mission". Where is the source for this?Momento 04:15, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Deprogrammed ex-members is from Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America. General background is from deprogramming. Is a Wiki rule offended here? Rumiton 10:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You would certainly have to cite the source. And does it say "deprogrammed ex-members". I wonder if the there is any need to include " ex-members became vocal critics of the mission", it applies to virtually every religion or NRM.Momento 20:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have the book referred to, the quote has been in the article for some time. I think it's all kind of interesting as a measure of the opposition Prem Rawat faced and as a sign of the times. There were passions that are hard to relate to today. But no biggie. Rumiton 11:10, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Downton's views

Downton's views should not be mentioned twice. Please stop adding contents that is already there a few sentences earlier. Andries 18:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Since material was added by you, the sentence you keep deleting misses an important aspect. I removed the dup and added the cite in the correct chronological order. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Correct chhronological order is first Downton and then Lans and Derks. Derks and Van der Lans wrote a comment on Downton and they wrote after 1975 i.e. also after 1976. Andries 19:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It is no about when they wrote something, but about which years they wrote about. That is what I meant by chronological. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Derks and Van der Lans "After 1975" is later than Downton's "by 1976". Also I think that the comment on Downton should be after what Downton wrote. Otherwise it is not clear what Derks and Van Der Lans commented on. Andries 21:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

There's too much in this article that is not correctly attributed.Momento 21

09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I see that you are on the intent to drag me to an editwar. I will not give you that pleasure, Andries. For the record, I keep finding your editing behavior to be a disgrace. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

And I think that your edits are misguided. Fee free to file a request for comments. Andries 14:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I will do whatever I see necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Lede

Thanks for changing that Rumiton, I was about to do the same.Momento (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Elan Vital

The Elan Vital indicates that the Divine Light Mission was set up by Elan Vital in 1971. 84.9.48.220 (talk) 18:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

You have it totally wrong, and I am starting to suspect you are deliberately time-wasting. According to the Colorado Secretary of State, the DLM changed its name to Elan Vital in 1983. Read the Elan Vital article. Rumiton (talk) 21:17, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

This person has posted anonymously on several occasions. I have corrected the EV article.Momento (talk) 00:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed the IP. Shopping for a blocking, I think. Rumiton (talk) 13:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I just removed a section named "Criticism." The size meant it was undue weight to one POV, and also I think it was an extraordinary claim. No other source that I am aware of claims that the Divine Light Mission forced all its members into poverty and celibacy, though there could be value in reporting on the lifestyle in the ashrams which were run by DLM, in which a percentage voluntarily spent some time. Rumiton (talk) 11:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Removing the entire criticism section is a bad way of fixing a weight problem. If there was a specific problem with one assertion why didn't you just remove that one part? Please restore the part that isn't a problem.

As for the assertion that followers live in poverty, I just read an L.A. Times article in which Malibu neighbors complain that followers had to live out of dumpsters. So it odes not appear to be an extraordinary claim. However if the group has made a rebuttal or counterclaim that can be included too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There are many scholarly sources that describe the DLM's ashrams, so it would not be a problem to add material about that aspect. Criticism can be added as well alongside other material on the ashram's vows. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There are many scholarly sources on the ashrams at Talk:Prem_Rawat/scholars. It would be a good idea to summarize all that material. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ashrams

Here is some materials on the ashrams. I would suggest adding summaries of these to what is already there, under a new section heading "Ashrams". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:35, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Messer

All Mission activities depend entirely on volunteered labor and funds. The knowledge itself, the primary source of satisfaction to devotees, is independent of the Mission proper, and DLM has no power to discipline or enforce agreements. Devotees move in and out of service roles or financial commitments, and DLM has little chance to predict or control income or staffing.

Galanter

Premies could live in ashrams to devote themselves more full to Service. Premies often worked part or full time outside the ashram and gave a sizable portion-sometimes all-of their income to the movement. They also practiced celibacy, vegetarianism, and frequent meditation. The focus of this ascetic existence was their religious mission rather than personal pleasure or gain.

Geaves

Many of the characteristics of the Indian movement founded by Prem Rawat’s father, who had died only in 1966, were imported wholesale into the western environment. Ashrams were established with a lifetime commitment of celibacy expected from those who joined. Members were expected to forswear drugs and alcohol, and adopt a strict vegetarian diet. The closing of the ashrams took away the possibility of a committed workforce and instead Prem Rawat’s activities to promote his teachings became more dependent on part-time volunteer assistance from individuals who were now raising families and creating careers for themselves.

Melton

Many were initiated and became the core of the Mission in the United States. Headquarters were established in Denver, and by the end of 1973, tens of thousands had been initiated, and several hundred centers as well as over twenty ashrams, which housed approximately 500 of the most dedicated premies, had emerged.

Parke & Stoner

While the ashrams have often been self-supporting they have not been a good source of income for the Mission. Unlike the Moonies, the Children of God, or the Hare Krishnas, Divine Light Mission members do not sell anything. They do not solicit on street corners, selling candy, flowers, peanuts, or literature. And unlike the Church of Scientology, Guru Maharaj Ji's group does not charge for the courses or the teaching of the techniques of "knowledge." The group gets its money through gifts and the tithing of its members. The more gainfully employed a premie is, the higher the tithe the Mission receives.

1. Messer, Jeanne 'Guru Maharaj Ji and the Divine Light Mission, in The New Religious Consciousness edited by Charles Y. Glock and Robert N. Bellah, Berkeley: University of California Press. pp.52-72. ISBN 0-52003-472-4
2. Galanter, Marc (1999). Cults: faith, healing, and coercion. Oxford : Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-512370-0.
3. Geaves, Ron, Globalization, charisma, innovation, and tradition: An exploration of the transformations in the organisational vehicles for the transmission of the teachings of Prem Rawat (Maharaji), 2006, Journal of Alternative Spiritualities and New Age Studies, 2 44-62
4. J. Gordon Melton Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America New York/London: Garland, 1986; revised edition, Garland, pages 141-145
5. Parke, Jo Anne; Stoner, Carroll (1977). All gods children: the cult experience--salvation or slavery?. Radnor, Pa: Chilton. ISBN 0-8019-6620-5.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)