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Revision as of 21:12, 18 July 2005

McCarthyism and original research

Any attempt to reinstall McCarthyite conspiracy theories and rants into this article will be vigorously resisted. 172 | Talk 12:55, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Nobs's writings were sourced rather specifically. Ad hominems (and obscenities) are not a trump card, especially fifty years after the fact. --TJive 13:44, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

He is not using secondary sources. What he is doing is "original research," a nice way of writing saying spewing defamatory bullshit. 172 | Talk 15:32, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

172, you need to be a bit more clear in your charge. Were it true that he is "not using secondary sources", this would not itself constitute a violation of no original research. As the article states:

The phrase "original research" in this context refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Misplaced Pages's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation".

Original research is research that creates primary sources or secondary sources.

I looked at the version which you challenged and changed; I have not been sufficiently moved to look through the entire history thus far. In that version of the article, he gave the following sources:

An Encyclopedia Britannica entry on the "International Brigades" in support of the claim that, "the Abraham Lincoln Brigade a Comintern organization that fought in the Spanish Civil War." The entry is not fully available but the article states that, "the International Brigades were recruited, organized, and directed by the Comintern, with headquarters in Paris. The U.S. contingent called itself the Abraham Lincoln Batallion." The encylopedia is being used in this context as a secondary source, and his factual claim is thus not novel.

A 91 page FBI document for the claim that, "An FBI investigation later revealed that Magdoff made many false statements regarding his employment after graduation in order to obtain employment with the federal government." I have not read through the entire document to establish the veracity of this, and it does not appear to be word search compatible; this document, in the meantime, could be construed as either a primary document or a secondary one depending on how it is used.

An article which is purported by Nobs to be a "United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive" history, hosted on the website of the Federation of American Scientists. He cites page 31 to state that, "According to United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX) Official History, Magdoff was a member of the Perlo group of Soviet spies (See pg. 31)." The relevant text of page 31 is as follows:

The following were members of the Victor Perlo Network....Harry Magdoff: Statistical Division of WPB and Office of Emergency Management; Bureau of Research and Statistics, WTB; Tools Division, War Production Board; Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, Commerce Department.

The reference is being used as a secondary source in which the claim is being attributed to it.

A web page of historian John Earl Haynes on which it appears posted what purports to be notes on a KGB document analyzed by "Alexander Vassiliev, a former KGB officer". The link directs to the following text:

3. “Tan” – Harry Magdoff, former employee of the Commerce Department.

Which refers to this annotation by John Earl Haynes:

Magdoff, an economist, was a source for Bentley’s Perlo network. He worked for the War Production Board in World War II and then for the Commerce Department. He appeared in 1944 Venona messages as a Soviet source under the cover name Kant. Tan appeared only once in the deciphered Venona traffic, in a 1945 message, and was unidentified; but the context was consistent with it being Magdoff. Tan, it appears, had replaced Kant as Magdoff’s cryptonym in 1945.

These sources (the document and the annotation) are provided for the claim:

Magdoff was identified by Arlington Hall cryptographers in the Venona project and FBI counterintelligence investigators as a Soviet source under the cover name "Kant" in 1944. Code name "Tan", which appears in the 1948 Gorsky Memo, and appears once in deciphered 1945 Venona traffic, according to researcher John Earl Haynes, is consistent with Magdoff. Code name "Tan", as the evidence suggests, replaced "Kant" as Magdoff’s cryptonym in 1945.

Part of which is attributed directly to Haynes, the rest of it is already suggested by him.

An article by Vladimir Pozniakov, "a Senior Researcher at the Institute of General History of the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow," published by the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars Cold War International History Project, apparently hosted by the Smithsonian Institute. Nobs's claim, in reference to this article, is that:

Magdoff's complicity in espionage was corroborated by a message exhumed from the NKVD archives in Moscow in the 1990s. A message from the head of KGB foreign intelligence operations, Lt. General Pavel M. Fitin, to Secretary General of the Comintern Georgi Dimitrov dated September 29, 1944 requested information on Magdoff related to his recruitment into the espionage service of the Soviet Union.

Magdoff's name appears within the 18th footnote:

19 Feklisov, pp. 65-105; M. Vorontsov, Capt. 1st rank, Chief Navy Main Staff, Intelligence Directorate, and Petrov, Military Commissar, NMS, ID to G. Dimitrov, 15 August 1942, No. 49253ss, typewritten original; G. Dimitrov to Pavel M. Fitin, 20 November 1942, No. 663, t/w copy; P. M. Fitin to G. Dimitrov, 14 July 1944, No. 1/3/10987, t/w copy; P. M. Fitin to G. Dimitrov, 29 September 1944, No. 1/3/16895, t/w copy. All these documents are NMS ID and FCD Chiefs' requests for information related to Americans and naturalized American citizens working in various US Government agencies and private corporations, some of whom had been CPUSA members. The last two are related to a certain Donald Wheeler (an OSS official), Charles Floto or Flato (who in 1943 worked for the "...Dept. of Economic Warfare"), and Harry Magdoff (War Production Board)-the request dated 29 Sept. 1944-and to Judith Coplon who according to the FCD information worked for the Dept. of Justice.-RTsKhIDNI, f. 495, op. 74, d. 478, l. 7; d. 484, l. 34; d. 485, l. 10, 14, 17, 31, 44.

It is in reference to this passage (itself positioned after the previous footnote):

Also, the limitations imposed on the usage of the CPUSA membership did not mean that Soviet intelligence ceased recruiting both Americans and non-Americans in America.

Since this article itself attempts to correlate primary sources in interpreting data, it is a secondary source and the claim staked by Nibs seems to me a plain reading of what is written there.

"Allen Weinstein and Alexander Vassiliev, The Haunted Wood: Soviet Espionage in America—the Stalin Era (New York: Random House, 1999)", a book co-authored by the individual whose material is quoted as a primary document in another source given by Nubs. I do not see how this could be cited as a primary source.

"Harvey Klehr, John Earl Haynes, and Fridrikh Igorevich Firsov, The Secret World of American Communism (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1995)", the second of whom annotated the aforementioned primary document. I do not see how this could be cited as a primary source.

"Alexander Vassiliev, Untitled Notes on Anatoly Gorsky’s December 1948 Memo on the Failed American Networks (2003)", what would seem to be by now an obvious reference though I can not locate the source of this specific title.

"Feklisov, Alexandre, The Man Behind the Rosenbergs: Memoirs of the KGB Spymaster Who Also Controlled Klaus Fuchs and Helped Resolve the Cuban Missile Crisis, New York: Enigma, 2001", which has no readily apparent relevance but would hardly seem to be a primary source.

Your suggestion that he is conducting inappropriate original research is quite baffling then, considering that every contentious analytical claim is referenced, quite explicitly, and typically attributed directly to that source. Unless he is one of the individuals cited in this article, then he is actually following what is officially encouraged policy:

esearch that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged. In fact, all articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from primary and secondary sources. This is called source-based research, and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.

I would politely suggest that you tone down the rancorous language and instead focus specifically on concerns you may have regarding the sources themselves or the presentation of information, rather than deleting content wholesale with nothing but personal attacks and vague threats. It is neither helpful in attempting to resolve such a dispute nor does it conform with expected policy and behavior. --TJive 17:18, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

We only have evidence here that he was hounded by the FBI during the McCarthy era, and hardly anything corroborating the claim that he was a Soviet spy by secondary sources. I do not regret my language. Misplaced Pages will not be used to turn the clock back to the McCarthy era. 172 | Talk 17:31, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

We only have evidence here that he was hounded by the FBI during the McCarthy era

I am not sure what this is in reference to. McCarthy was in control of the PSI not the FBI. I'm not sure what the date of the FBI report listed is from, but it does not concern the more specific references to documentation regarding his activities (rather the assertion that he lied in order to get a job); they come not only from counter-intelligence but research into KGB sources.

hardly anything corroborating the claim that he was a Soviet spy by secondary sources.

I just got through explaining in a bit of detail how the references were being used as secondary sources and in many instances were attributing the info and the claim directly to those sources. I am not sure what standard you are using here or that any would suffice.

Misplaced Pages will not be used to turn the clock back to the McCarthy era.

That is a rather anti-encylopedic and ahistorical attitude to correlating facts and valid information. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be either an activist or agenda-driven tool. If evidence comes to light which calls for a revision of history then history should be revised. However, this article does not concern "the McCarthy era". It concerns Magdoff. I'm not sure if you are aware of VENONA or the research into Soviet archives after the collapse, much less the work of such as Weinstein, Vassiliev, Haynes, Klehr, and so forth. That is no excuse to deny that this all exists. And condescendingly referring to Nobs' gathering of this known and published information as "bullshit" and "detective work" is neither helpful or particularly relevant, as he is not going further than what the references say or violating policy in his work. --TJive 16:32, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for a very well studied presentation of the evidence. I might include, the source included within the text from the FAS website is a duplicate reprint of the that available listed at the bottom the page from the Official History of the Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX), entitled, A Counterintelligence Reader, vol. 3 chap. 1, pg. 31. The two are identical and are Open Source information. Nobs01 19:04, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

This isn't the place for your detective work, which is not adequately corroborated by secondary sources. 172 | Talk 19:07, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, you want a secondary source, here's one: Nigel West, Venona: The Greatest Secret of the Cold War (HarperCollins, London, 1999), which describes Magdoff as a "member of a new network" (one containing Perlo and others). There's a bit more about him in this book, but I won't bother to type it in. Noel (talk) 22:43, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Oh, here's another secondary source (mentioned above, but here's what it says): it turns out I do have The Secret World of American Communism, which is about the contents of Comintern archives released to Western researchers in the 1990's, It's published by Yale University, hardly a source of disreputable, shadowy, works. : The Comintern memo (Document 90) of 28/29 September 1944 (no doubt a response to the Venona May messages given below, since it names the same list of people) which it provides includes the entry "5. Magadoff, works on the WPB." This book goes on to say:

Of the seven names in the message, Elizabeth Bentley named six of them ... Harry Mogadoff ... as sources from whom she received espionage material.

I know Elizabeth Bentley is something of a bête noire on the left, but alas for them, she's the real thing. Pavel Sudoplatov, a two-star general in the NKVD who ran the NKVD's "Administration for Special Tasks", says in his autobiography Special Tasks that:

For the FBI to utilize the disclosures by Guzenko, and later by Elizabeth Bentley, an American NKVD agent, to penetrate and destroy our agent networks was not an easy job.

thereby confirming that she really was an NKVD agent, and really did blow real agents/sources (including Mogadoff) to the US authorities. Noel (talk) 21:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Note on FBI Silvermaster group file, pgs. 182-188 in original, will be found on pgs. 3-9 in PDF format. Nobs01 19:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Reference to McCarthy

Reverted and placed here pending sourcing that Harry Magdoff ever testified before the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.

Magdoff became vulnerable during the McCarthy Era. nobs 23:13, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I would hope all issues can be resolved without an edit war. In regards to this issue, there definitely were "security concerns" regarding Magdoff. Those "security concerns" did not originate with charges by Joseph McCarthy. No evidence has been presented that Magdoff was a "victim" of McCarthy. Magdoff's security concerns have been well documented. I would very much like to complete a well rounded bio-page of Magdoff, entailling all aspects of what appears to be a very interesting life. Hiding facts, however, and invoking distortions, IMHO, will ultimatley serve no purpose and fail. I look forward to cooperation with any serious student of Magdoff. nobs 15:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Venona

Before I looked at this article Nobs01 states as historical fact that: Magdoff was a member of the Perlo group of Soviet spies. Magdoff appears in 1944 Venona messages as a Soviet source under the cover name "Kant".

OK, well first of all Google shows the words "magdoff", "kant" and "venona" appear on exactly four web pages ("hiss", "ales" and "venona" appear on over 700). One of these pages is Nobs01's Misplaced Pages entry, so it's really three entries. One is from a white supremacist site, which seems to be quoting from another source. One is from some far-right red-under-every-bed author, who basically accuses pretty much every known figure on the left, whether communist or not, of being a Soviet spy - Alger Hiss, Harry Magdoff, Harry Dexter White, even IF Stone for God's sake. The other is a memo referring to the original Venona message, and the speculations of those at the time, let's see what that was:

MAGDOFF - "KANT".

So US intelligence was not able to retrieve this whole sentence, just the last two words, Magdoff and Kant. Everything else is just a speculation. Now first of all, who is to say this is Harry Magdoff? There are Magdoff's living in California, Nevada, Louisiana, Vermont, Massachusetts. Why is is Harry Magdoff? More importantly, spies never have their name transmitted by the Soviets. Code names are always used. So if his name was transmitted, it actually would help his case.

Nobs01 is putting all of this wild speculation about Venona into Misplaced Pages as factual encyclopedia articles. In fact, I just looked and see IF Stone is being accused of being a Soviet spy as well. Why not just go edit the FDR and Truman articles and accuse them of "twenty years of treason" like McCarthy did? It's quite ridiculous we have to waste our time cleaning up after people putting in the kind of stuff the John Birch Society put out during the McCarthy era. Ruy Lopez 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

You should quote the entire 13 May message (text, image), not just two words:

"On HELMSMAN's instructions GOOD GIRL contacted through AMT a new group in CARTHAGE: MAGDOFF - "KANT". GOOD GIRL's impressions: They are reliable FELLOWCOUNTRYMEN, politically highly mature; they want to help with information. They said that they had been neglected and no oone had taken any interest in their potentialities "STORM". RAIDER, PLUMB, TED, and KANT will go to TYRE once every two weeks in turn. PLUMB and TED know PAL. We shall let you have identifying particulars later."

Note that the name Magdoff is completely spelled out (i.e. the assignment of KANT to Magdoff was not just dective/guesswork, but comes from a direct textual connection in a decrypt).

Shortly thereafter (as promised - We shall let you have identifying particulars later) there's this 30 May messsage (image, pg 1 image, pg 2 image, pg 3), which is a long list of the " of new group":

"The probationers of the new group have given the following personal histories of themselves:" ... "2. 'KANT' became a fellow COUNTRYMAN a long time ago, being , works in the Machine Tool Division of the DEPOT."

which states flat out that the Magdoff in question worked in the War Production Board, pretty much confirming that the Magdoff in question is this one.

Your statement that spies never have their name transmitted by the Soviets. Code names are always used. is incorrect, as you can see on page 2 of the second message, where Harold Glasser's name is given in full.

Please note that your use of the term "spies" is loose and imprecise; the NKVD (and is predecessors and successors) carefully distinguished between "agent" (someone who had a formal relationship with the NKVD, sometimes involving money), and "sources", a term which covered a wide range of people, some of whom might just be gossips, not witting helpers. There's a wide range in there, and just because some is named as a source of information, and is given a covername, doesn't mean they were "spies" (in the conventional meaning of the term).

Your ranting about the John Birch Society and the McCarthy era is absolutely out of place. If you have any facts to bring to the table, please produce them. Noel (talk) 20:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

You are still making quite a stretch to say that Harry Magdoff was definitely, in fact, a Soviet spy. First we have a sentence where only two word appear, Magdoff and Kant. For you, this is enough proof that Harry Magdoff is Kant. I wonder why if Magdoff is some kind of secret agent, why the names of everyone around his entry has a code name, but it wasn't seen fit to give him one.

Then you somehow look at the message "'KANT' became a fellow COUNTRYMAN a long time ago, being , works in the Machine Tool Division of the DEPOT." as being this "states flat out that the Magdoff in question worked in the War Production Board". Sorry, but I don't see this at all. At least five people are said by Nobs to be spies in the War Production Board. This message doesn't even connect Kant to the production board since 8 groups of the cipher missing between the mention of Kant and the code name which is supposed to represent the War Production Board. This would be like seeing something mentioned on one page of a book, flipping eight pages forward, seeing that someone works at a codename which they think is a board, and then saying there is a definitive connection. Even if there was a connection, which there isn't, Magdoff is not the only person who worked on the War Production Board. He worked in the Statistical Division of the WPB anyhow, Nobs is trying to list him as working at multiple divisions, which is absurd.

The "facts" which "prove" Magdoff was a Soviet spy have more holes than a sponge. Enormous leaps of conclusions are made here. I should also mention that there is very little discussion on the Internet of the idea of Magdoff being a spy, aside from here, the white supremacist site and the 2 conspiracy sites. Ruy Lopez 21:07, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you Noel, excellent work and analysis. Yes indeed the term "spy" is applied too loosely too often; we are specifically refering to persons with covert relationship with Soviet intelligence, not the "unwitting type" which do occur, and I am working on a glossary of terminology which should help. For the record, here is more from Haynes and Klehr that references Magdoff:

• Venona 629 KGB New York to Moscow, 5 May 1944
• Venona 687 KGB New York to Moscow, 13 May 1944
• Venona 769, 771 KGB New York to Moscow, 30 May 1944
• Venona 179, 180 KGB Moscow to New York, 25 February 1945

Elizabeth Bentley told the FBI that on a rainy Sunday in March of 1944, at a meeting with the Perlo group, Harry Magdoff had been on sick leave recovering from an operation and was about to return to work at the War Production Board. The FBI checked and found that Magdoff had been on sick leave from January 10 to Marcy 7 1944 for a gall bladder operation, and that it had rained in New York on both Sunday February 27 and March 5, 1944.

Source: Elizabeth Bentley deposition, 30 November 1945, FBI file 65-14603; Elizabeth Bentley, Out of Bondage: The Story of Elizabeth Bentley, New York: Ivy Books, 1988), pgs. 163-165; New York FBI memo, 16 January 1947, FBI Silvermaster file (FBI file 65-56402), serial 1936. nobs 20:58, 18 July 2005 (UTC)