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Revision as of 11:14, 19 July 2005

Igor, all I am saying is mention the source. I am not defending the current stats. You say the source is official, then just go ahead an mention it -- what's the problem??? Dori 00:46, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dori I did, before you erased it...

http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Albanians&diff=0&oldid=1286838

Regards

Igor

I meant an external link. You didn't memorize the data did you? You must have looked it up somewhere. I could make up a source like that too, but I'd rather not. Dori 00:59, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I suggest you both have a quick read of Misplaced Pages:NPOV. If one source says 500,000 and another says 150,000, you don't have an edit war where each editor asserts a single figure, you write "one source says 500,000 and another says 150,000", then you both agree that that's a pretty accurate assessment and do some sort of virtual handshake, and then get on with doing more useful things. That's what NPOV is all about. -- Tim Starling 03:44, Aug 19, 2003 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Dori 12:26, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

P.S., please don't be intimidated: Dori and Igor are clearly the two experts on Albania here, not me. Edit what I've just done mercilessly, just try to write from a neutral point of view. -- Tim Starling

There are two articles about Albanians: "Ethnic Albanian" and "Albanians". This article is about ethnic Albanians inside and outside of Albania. The article Ethnic Albanian seems to suggest that there are ethnic Albanians only outside of Albania. I think this is wrong. The term "Albanians" is ambiguous between citizens of Albania (who may happen to be, e.g., ethnic Greeks) and ethnic Albanians, and this is the reason why "ethnic" is added. My proposal is merging the two articles. Andres 07:24, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

OK, I think I added that page before I knew about this one (when I first discovered wikipedia). Merging the two is not a bad idea, and it might avoid some confusion. --Dori 22:03, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Dori, the census results I am using is from the official Yugoslav census data, I have it all on one CD, I will try and find it on the net in the meantime, you can check any book which mentions the 1981 and 1991 censa, the data are the same all over.

Well finally you mention the magical source. Why are you opposed to citing it in the articles? Dori 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

PS, the preliminary 2001 Albania census results mention 3,087,159 people in the whole of Albania, that, naturally includes minorities as well, I rounded it off at about 3 million Albanians although depending on the source (CIA world factbook or Bethany) the percentage of ethnic Albanians is anywhere between 92 and 95% Albanian so that means anywhere between 2,830,000 and 2,930,000 ethnic Albanians in Albania although some Greeks would put at an even lower figure... Igor, 22:50, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

So why don't you explaing the reasoning. You can say that this is the estimate from this census based off of the estimated percentage of minorities. As I've said, if we are to use numbers at random, I'd rather use mine. Dori 22:01, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I found a recent Russian encyclopedic data

http://dic.academic.ru/misc/enc1p.nsf/ByID/NT0000102E

citing numbers we don't have in this article. The number of ethnic Albanians is stated to be 115,000 in the United States, 5,000 in Canada and 15,000 in Turkey. The year and the source are not mentioned. Andres 23:25, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I think this article could contain a survey of the ethnological groups of the Albanians. I mean G(h)egs and Tosks, and the "old" emigrants. And if this information is available, about tribes. (Just a desideratum.) Andres 08:17, 28 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Albanians in Greece

This issue seems to be sparking an edit war. I wish to ask the involved editors (User:Theathenae, User:Albanau, and User:Bogdangiusca) to disuss the matter here instead of continually reverting the article. I am protecting the aritcle now while this discussion follows. Bratsche 15:50, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Bratsche, for some common sense. I'll be happy to participate if that's alright with you Chronographos 16:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a wonderful idea, Bratsche.--Theathenae 16:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Theatheane I wonder why you have put the quotation mark on the Chams and why you only include the Muslim Albanians and leave beside the Cham Christian Albanians. You also say that the Aromanians/Vlach in Albania identifying themself as Greeks, that's crazy.

The Greeks do indeed claim the Aromanians/Vlachs of Albania as Greeks, but I'd like a reference about their self-identification. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 16:56, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Most Arvanitovlachs have moved to Greece since the fall of the Hoxha régime, and have claimed Greek nationality on the basis of their identification with the Greeks. It's more a case of finding a reference for their non-self-identification as Greeks, if you can.--Theathenae 17:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I am not famliar with the relevant statistics, but it seems to me that almost one million Albanian citizens now live in Greece. About half of them are illegal aliens and potentially subject to deportation anytime, while the rest have been given "Green Cards" allowing them to live and work in Greece. If these numbers are true, they mean that a staggering one quarter of the population of Albania earn their livelihood in Greece. Theathenae, do you know if the Greek state differentiates between ethnic Greek and ethnic Albanian immigrants? Chronographos 17:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Of course it does. There have been hordes of Albanian nationals clamouring to claim Greek citizenship on the basis of not being ethnically Albanian. Of course, these include ethnic Albanians who baptise themselves Northern Epirotes in order to gain favourable treatment in Greece.--Theathenae 17:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Bratsche I request you review the article to last change by me since Theatheane is cleary spreading Greek propaganda. Albanau 16:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanau, your English is not exactly conducive to clarity of meaning. This is no way to conduct a fruitful conversation. Do try to pose one question at a time, taking care that it is phrased clearly and succinctly, so that people may understand what you are saying and are able to respond in a meaningful fashion. Chronographos 17:01, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Hey Bratsche!

Allow me to quote Stephanie Schwander-Sievers, book: Albanian Identities: Myth and History, page 16. ....Southern Albanian Aromanian (for 'Vlach') communities which, with political transition, have won rights as a special 'cultural group'. However, during my fieldwork with them in 1996 I found many who explicitly wished to identify with their Albanian nationality... --Albanau 17:18, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who Ms. Sievers is, but I believe Theathenae referred to people who moved to Greece and requested Greek passports after 1996. Chronographos 17:21, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

• Albanian nationals, including many ethnic Greeks and Greek-identifying Aromanians or Arvanitovlachs in addition to ethnic Albanians, that arrived especially during the 1990s, mostly as illegal immigrants; as many as 500,000, according to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

According to the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs it say that 500,000 are ethnic Albanians immigrants and does not include ethnic Greeks, and, how Theathenae put it Greek-identifying.Aromanians. Albanau 17:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure the Greek MFA refers to all Albanians and not just the ones it gave Green Cards to? I live in Greece and I know that most illegal aliens enter the country in secret and are often deported, only to reenter secretly. Indeed they often use deportation as a way to cut their fares in half! I don't see how the Greek MFA can keep accurate records on these people. If they could, they wouldn't let them in in the first place. Chronographos 17:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Read

You don't frankly expect me to read a ... Master of Arts dissertation (!!!) written 3 years ago, do you? What is this, a high-school essay competition? At my age, I have no time for undergraduate drivel. You must do better next time, young man! Chronographos 17:42, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Now your babbling like a crazy man cause you have been crack in this debate. Albanau 17:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Your kind words are warmly appreciated Chronographos 17:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Albanó, if you'd bothered to read the paragraph you cite, you would know that "Albanians" here refers to Albanian citizens in general, not just ethnic Albanians: "The first wave that crossed the country were mainly political immigrants, when the Greek state opened the Greek-Albanian borders to help the reunification of the Greek minority members living in Albania with their relatives in Greece in 1987. Many of these ethnic Greeks settled in Greece in the beginning of the 90’s and obtained Greek nationality. Afterwards, the majority of Albanians who came were ethnic Albanians and was characterized as economic migrants."--Theathenae 17:48, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Here's the exact quote:

"Albanians are the most prominent group of illegal immigrants in Greece nowadays, estimated around 150,000 by Petrinioti and as much as 500,000 by the Greek ministry of Foreign Affairs ." bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 18:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Vlachs in Albania, majority wise, dont see themselves as Greek. There is a pro-Greek faction, but that is a minority along with the pro-Romanian faction. Both are politically and economically motivated and mostly not by actual cultural ties. Vlach Papa Lambru Balamaci of Korce certainly did not think he was Greek when Greeks tied him to a tree and shot him dead for blame over the fact that Northern Epirus was going to Albania. I suggest people read this article along with this and this. You will find many of your questions answered. Most Vlachs today, including my father, have been fully assimilated into Albanian society and while many are begining to recognize their vlach roots(including I), they do not forget the fact that they are Albanians. Many have intermarried into Albanian families and Albania has had many prominent Vlachs helping it in its history. As for going to Greece and signing yourself as Greek? I suggest people read this report. Which states;

"There are even cases where Albanian citizens apply for a migrant’s “green card ” but the state refuses it claiming that they are members of the Greek minority in Albania for which a special, preferential procedure applies, even though the applicant makes no such claim. To benefit for that procedure, the applicant will have to go back to Albania, get a new visa and reapply', a difficult and uncertain procedure." Tpilkati 18:03, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

User:Tpilkati, whose profile is non-existent, this is as relevant as African-American slavery before the time of Abraham Lincoln. What exactly are you trying to say? Chronographos 18:16, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

This is relevant due to the fact that Theathenae stated these people are going to Greece and applying as Greeks, when in many occasions this is not so. This pushes the number of Vorio Epirotes higher and ths makes the illusion that there is a high number of minorities in Albania...

Perhaps most of the few Vlachs who did stay in Albania do identify as Albanians, but that says nothing about the community as a whole. As for your second point, are you denying that Albanians have been applying for Greek citizenship?--Theathenae 19:25, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

These Vlachs who left, left for the same reason as Albanians or Greeks. They left for better for a better life. Those who claim they are Greeks do so in order to receive scholarships and even money from the Greek government. Many of them have stated their desire to return to Albania at one point or another. Please athenae, read my articles, written by a Vlach-American.

excerp from the article;

Spiru had earned money working in Greece and his household had an air of prosperity. Greek visas are worth thousands of dollars in Albania, so great is the need for employment that will earn hard currency. Greece has taken to offering visas to the Vlachs of Albania, who have only to' accept the designation "Northern Epirote." This is a brilliant move on the part of the Greeks; they could strengthen the Greek minority if they could count the Vlachs as Greeks, and what better way to do so than to reward people with a visa? Spiru is one of a growing number of Vlachs who have taken advantage of this offer.' He recognizes that by calling himself something other than Ruman (or Aruman) -- the self-designation of the Vlachs -- he has become an instrument of Greek foreign policy. But he has a family to support; and Greece is a nice place to live and to work; and when he's done, he'll return to his family and household in Albania; and anyway, he knows what he is, no matter what his Greek identification card may say; and so you can move one more Vlach from Column A (Vlach or Albanian) to Column B (Greek). This is the way things go in the Balkans.

Am I denying Albanians going for Greek citizenship? No way, most there, the way I view them, would get ready to do the most obsene things for it. This does not change the fact that Greek purposely pushes them into declaring themselves as Epirotes, in order to raise the number of minority in Greece. Tpilkati 19:34, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmmmmm, Greek visas sold for "thousands of dollars" (or euros, which would be 20% higher)? I guess the authorities need to know about this! And that there are people ready to sell their soul and identity so that they can sweep the streets. Pink Floyd were right on the , er, money ("Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today ...."). Well, I have three words for you, Mr. Mystery Man Tpilkati: Capitalism is tough. Get used to it. Chronographos 19:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Articles written by a Vlach-American contain the opinions of a Vlach-American. They are not representative of the Vlachs in general.--Theathenae 19:40, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Athenae, farsarotul, is a widely known and prominent organization on Vlachs and their diaspora. Considering the vlach who wrote the article was attending a vlachs in Albania event it is trully a neutral and objective article. Chrono, have to complement you, quite a taste for music you have, lol. Tpilkati 19:50, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, my friend, although I prefer the Syd Barrett-era Pink Floyd. Now is "farsarotul" a peer-reviewed journal? Chronographos 20:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

This is the first time I am hearing of the peer-reviewed journal. Tpilkati 20:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

So I thought, dear, so I thought .... Chronographos 20:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It's Theathenae. One word. Nothing to do with Athenae. As for farsarotul.org, it is a widely known pro-Rumanian organisation; it is not representative of all or even most Vlachs. I don't think the Vlachs who identify as Greeks would appreciate your condescension. Let them decide for themselves what they are and are not.--Theathenae 20:17, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

You said, he said, she said ... Official numbers will be required, and this goes for Theathenae, me, you, or God in Heaven Chronographos 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

And yes I dont have a profile, because I am relatively new and still havnt gotten used to the site,although I dont know how this should effect, negatively, my post, Tpilkati 18:24, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It would help in that it would go some way towards establishing that you are not a sockpuppet. Chronographos 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleary what Theathenae have done here is disorting the facts. User Bratsche do you agree? --Albanau 18:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleary (sic) you need to bring up some facts yourself Chronographos 18:33, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Cleary what Theathenae have done is disorting the facts, just look above and you will see. And please stop babbling! Albanau 18:45, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll cut a "cleary" deal with you: I'll agree with whatever you say, so long as you never talk to me again unless you call my secretary and make an appointment first. Fair enough? Chronographos 19:13, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Please, all read Misplaced Pages:Civility. This is not the place for personal slander, nor childish bickering. A nice, civil discussion is in order. This is to determine a consensus for the facts of this matter. As the article may stand, we all should also remember the policies of a neutral point of view. Both sides of the argument may need to be represented in the article.

I would also like to note that I am neither a referee or a moderator. I am simply another editor who is allowed tp use certain functions on Misplaced Pages. Anyone can join this discussion, user page or not. My comments at the top were to notify those who were participating in the edit war. Now let us continue in a calm manner. Bratsche 20:00, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

But, Bratsche, he started it!  :-)))))))))))) Chronographos 20:02, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

According to the International Organization of Labor

If this disagreement is still about the number of Albanians in Greece, It's 438,000 Albanians in Greece as of 2000. Also found an interesting article from Central Europe Review

The total number of immigrants, both legal and illegal, in Greece is thought to be between 400,000 and two million, an estimated 10% to 20% of the Greek work force.

and

In the collective social consciousness crime is closely connected with immigrants, particularly those from Albania. Researchers agree that the percentage of crime for which the Albanians are responsible, compared to the rest of the immigrant population in Greece, was only 4.5%, and was thus directly proportional to their numbers and, therefore, not exceptionally high.

4.5% of 11,000,000 would put it at 495,000. Acerimusdux 23:37, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

All of which is fine and dandy, unknown-user-Acerimusdux (there seem to be "many" like you around lately, huh?) except (1) it is outdated information and (2) it sounds way off topic to me. I would be happy to contribute current numbers and information, but I'm not sure anyone is interested. Should the subject of this discussion change to "Greek policy towards migrants", then it would be relevant. Of course there are some prima facie errors in your statements: the 400,000-2,000,000 figure and the corresponding "percentage of the Greek workforce" are a contradictio in terminis as the former has a 1:5 spread and the latter a 1:2 spread. Therefore, in addition to getting a user page of your own ("Tpilkati" might help you there, hint, hint), you need to work on your math skills. Chronographos 00:11, 19 July 2005 (UTC) (to put it plainly: no math, no peer-reviewed journal)

Chrono, is a user page info that important to you? Because Im rather lazy actually and never really felt like putting a personality on my account. I dont really see it as necessary, I make a post and bring the evidence I feel supports my view and thats it. Does putting a picture me there help so much?Tpilkati 00:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

No problem, Tpilkati, I'm sure Acerimusdux agrees with you 100% Chronographos 01:01, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

I cant help but think that you believe me and Ace are the same character. I assure you we are not. Tpilkati 02:18, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Multiple personality disorder appears to be endemic on Misplaced Pages.--Theathenae 08:08, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Not to mention Folie à deux. Or trois. Or quattre. Or ... Chronographos 09:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

It's so typical and pathetic of you two, Theathenae and Chronographos, don't try to escape from Acerimusdux valid arguments. If you think that he is the same person as Tpilkati bring up some real evidence insteed of speculating all the time. We don't accept hypothetical evidence. A real evidence must be valid and not vague for us to accept, so far you have not bring up any real evidence only hypothetical ones.

About the number of Albanians in Greece I'm still awaiting to hear from you Theathenae. The Greek MFA say they are 500, 000 Albanians in Greece but you claim that some of them are Greeks and Greek-identified Vlachs from Albania, thats very much incongruous. Albanau 11:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)