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Kékrōps (talk · contribs)

Kékrōps (talk · contribs) was recently placed under an 1r/d revert parole under WP:ARBMAC by Moreschi, and promptly blocked for a breach of it a few days after. Now, two days after his coming back from that block, I see him revert-warring on talk pages , . He was also continuing various slow revert wars across several articles yesterday, while sticking with 1r/d, yet ignoring the requirement of accompanying talk page discussion here , , . Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I was not aware that restoring a comment of mine, removed by another user on a third party's talk page, constituted a violation of any revert parole. To me, having my comments deleted is a simple case of obvious vandalism. Regarding my other reversions, they were either clearly explained in my edit summaries as a straightforward enforcement of WP:MOSMAC, thus not requiring further explanation on the talk pages, or a restoration of an administrator's version that had been vandalised. As for my recent block, I believe it was unjustified. It was not a content dispute; I was simply reverting the obviously misleading claim that consensus had been achieved on the use of "Macedonia" in country templates, when in fact the matter was still being debated by several editors on the relevant talk page. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Being "an administrator's version" is nothing that confers a version any special degree of authority, and makes reverting to it any less a part of revert warring. I suppose you are referring to this one - that didn't even have an edit summary, and the edit you reverted was most certainly not vandalism. You've been here long enough to know all these things. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I guess we must have different interpretations of "vandalism", then. If removing a long-standing note that specifically restricts the scope of a template, in order to facilitate a POV edit, is not vandalism, what is it? I remind you that this was a note established by consensus. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 07:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The disputed user talk page comments (, ) strike me as being both provocative and unnecessary. Fut. Perf. had asked for a translation, not a political commentary, and the comments aren't a good idea as far as Misplaced Pages:Civility is concerned. I note that WP:CIV authorises the removal of uncivil comments so it seems rather unwise to twice revert such a removal, particularly in the light of the clearly expressed reason for removing it prior to the second revert. Concerning this reversion , Kekrops has a point although it was arguably a clumsily done reversion (it certainly should have had an edit summary). The version that he reverted to is essentially one that's been in place since October 2006 () and there's a long-standing convention that "countries" templates don't list unrecognised territories (compare Template:Countries of Europe with Template:Countries and territories of the Middle East, which has a wider scope). We may need to change the scope of Template:Countries of Europe and its subordinate templates to encompass territories, but that's a discussion that needs to take place elsewhere before European territories start getting listed in templates. Personally, I would have reverted that edit as well. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Is using racist epithets against other ethnic groups, albeit in another language, acceptable according to Misplaced Pages:Civility? Why haven't these editors been sanctioned for calling Bulgarians "Tatars" and Greeks "sub-saharans"? Another editor has even tried to defend them by denying that they implied inferiority and instead accused me of racism for suggesting that they did, as well as telling me to "shut up" in Spanish in the edit summary. I'm finding it very hard to assume good faith here. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 08:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Update: I have now been accused of "baiting" the editor who made the racist remarks in the first place. Is this acceptable? ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 10:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

No, using racial epithets in any language isn't acceptable. If we can have a proper translation of that discussion (which I assume is in Macedonian?) let's review what it actually says so that action can be taken if needed. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation is on Fut. Perf's talk page. And Kékrōps seems to have a history of racism, see user talk:Kékrōps#Racist! and User talk:Kékrōps#Marcos Baghdatis. Both times his response to accusations was "Piss off". BalkanFever 11:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I request that disciplinary action be taken against the above user for persistently calling me a racist, a clear violation of WP:NPA. I have repeatedly asked him to stop, to no avail. Enough is enough. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 11:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

The behaviour towards Kekrops, especially by admin Fut.Perf. is a blatant case of double standards, if you see Fut.Perf.'s behaviour towards BalkanFever. In one case he's quick to ban (or rather refer the ban to Moreschi), in the other case he's the first to stand in support and just offer friendly advice Now I might be biased and consider that BalkanFever is much more provocative than Kekrops, but let's for a moment consider that they are both equally provocative and then monitor the admins behaviour towards them. I invite any third party to do exactly that.--   Avg    18:40, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Number 57 (talk · contribs)

User has violated the Decorum principals, specifically 'personal attack', 'incivility', and 'assumption of bad faith' with the following edit summary and diff:

• "Mr POV pusher himself"
• "the biggest POV pusher around" - пﮟოьεԻ 57, 16:00, 13 February 2008.

Requesting a retraction and apology or administrative action. Jaakobou 16:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm certainly not going to apologise. I might have WP:AGF a year ago, but your contributions make it quite clear that you are a POV pusher; as evidenced here. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The Arbcom ended a month ago with no action taken against either of us. I believe that bad faith assumptions and personal attacks are detrimental to the Israeli-Palestiian articles and to the project in general. Jaakobou 16:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There was no action taken against me because I wasn't an involved party, and I have no idea why there was no action taken against you given the weight of evidence provided my myself and several other editors. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your link is misleading as you were certainly mentioned in the presented evidence but this is entirely germane to the reason I posted this complaint. Jaakobou 16:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Only by yourself in an attempt to discredit my evidence against you, and in passing by two editors, one of whom noted my response to an RfC, and another who noted that pro-Israeli editors attempted to bring down my RfA. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea on how your comment relates to this complaint about a personal attack, but I'd be interested in resolving the old disputes and avoiding future similar attacks in the future. I think the best solution would be a retraction (and maybe even an apology) so that we can move forward, but I don't see that you're interested in leaving the past in the past. Jaakobou 16:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd be willing to forgive and forget, but whilst you have reduced your bias in the article space, the fact that you're complaining about Nickhh's perfectly legitimate NPOVing of several articles suggests that there is still an underlying issue. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:41, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh is not the person making the "Mr POV pusher himself" comment.

I'm requesting a retraction. Jaakobou 16:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• Links should always be to the final decision in a case, not the proposed decision. The final decision is at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles#Final decision. I, who read the enforcement definition of "Uninvolved administrators" very stringently, defer evaluation of the situation to other administrators here. Frankly, though, I think the complainant deserves close scrutiny and am certain they are not an uninvolved bystander. GRBerry 17:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
• I also will not consider myself an "uninvolved administrator" by a stringent definition, since I am currently working with Jaakobou on a different Palestine-related article. However, it would seem to me that the operative part of remedy 1 of that case is "despite being warned, repeatedly or seriously fails". 1) Is there evidence that the user has been warned that his behavior is inappropriate? 2) Is there evidence that his behavior entails serious failings after said warning? If so, let's see it, please. - Revolving Bugbear 21:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• I can live with a retraction (and hopefully an apology), but Number 57 just repeats the same "he's POV!!!" vindication of the insulting comment. Jaakobou 23:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There are only quotes and case decision links here. Both sides please provide pertinent DIFFS. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:14, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that Jaakobou's repeated reinsertion of a huge criticism section to the article on left-wing journalist Gideon Levy ( - at one stage the criticism section amounted to more than two thirds of the article's length) was a clear violation of WP:NPOV#Undue weight, and thus a good basis for pointing out that he is a POV pusher. пﮟოьεԻ 57 11:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My complaint here

• per '"Mr POV pusher himself... the biggest POV pusher around (which is why I want you banned from Middle East articles)"'

Has nothing to do with a months old argument from October that Number 57 has etched to his memory (similar opposite examples exist but are germane). Number 57's old notes only show that he is an involved admin, who refuses to let go of very old disputes, and therefore should not pertain to be neutral.

On point, Personal attacks and assumptions of bad faith are a violation of the Arbcom final decision and as long as he does not post an ANI or AE notice about recent activity; Number 57 should avoid making comments while reminiscing about conflicts we had months ago.

My request is a retraction (and hopefully an apology) or administrative action.

-- Jaakobou 12:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh (talk · contribs)

Related case: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles.

• Note: Nickhh included here - Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles#Statement_by_Jaakobou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaakobou (talk • contribs) 08:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Between January 29 and February 11 (two weeks) Nickhh (talk · contribs) has made edits to a total of 7 different articles, on 5 of them he made reverts on my work, and 4 of those 5 were articles the editor has never touched before.

Following established editors to articles you've never worked on and reverting them is a violation of the Decorum principals, specifically, WP:STALK and WP:POINT (Saeb Erekat).

With respect, Jaakobou 08:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this a test to see if I "stalk" you here too? Anyway I suppose I have, by your terminology. You seem to be missing a few crucial points though -

1) I was never a party in the arbitration, nor was I even notified it was taking place. Arguably I should have been, but that's a different point. The fact that you mentioned my name in one of your posts during the arbitration means nothing;

2) On top of that, you have failed to notify me that you have posted this complaint about me, which seems a bit underhand;

3) Only one of the above diffs is a complete revert of a recent edit of yours . You had made that edit unilaterally, without discussing it, when there was a major talk page debate underway about the paragraph in question.

4) The other changes were of information that was manifestly incorrect, eg that Napoleon invaded "Israel", or that Mar Saba was "in Israel". You have since acknowledged those errors, so it seems a little rich to now Wikilawyer against me as if I'm the one who did something wrong here.

5) Per the above, considering that you seemed to be ranging around various articles trying to change standard terminology relating to Israel & Palestine, I was perfectly entitled to have a look at what articles you were trying to do that in. And then remove any related errors when I found them. As it happens, I had in fact edited on or at least been aware of most of the articles already.

You've provided no evidence a) that I have deliberately stalked you or followed you to a large number of articles, b) that I have reverted any of your edits for the sake of it or c) that any of the edits I have made were incorrect. So what is the point here? The fact that you've posted this complaint says way more about you than it does about me. --Nickhh (talk) 14:32, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly, I've also just noticed that you've posted an edited version of my contributions history here, removing every entry showing I discussed several of the issues on talk pages, and actually refrained from making some edits. You have not made clear that this is what you have done. --Nickhh (talk) 14:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

His edits look fine to me. He is only correcting POV edits (i.e. those claiming that East Jerusalem is in Israel or that the West Bank is part of Israel ), being more factually corrent (e.g. that the area was referred to as Palestine at the time ) and removing OR commentary . What is more worrying is how the facts that he has corrected got in in the first place. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Number 57's comment might be misleading as he makes an incorrect content based assesment and inserts a link to Tomb of Samuel, which is not one of the 4-5 mentioned articles.

The reason I posted, is that Nickhh, an editor connected with the Arbcom, was following me to 4 new articles and making points on Saeb Erekat. diff Jaakobou 15:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC) added wikilink 15:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have already replied to this comment once, but it was moved by Jaakobou. Anyway, I did not insert a link to the Tomb of Samuel - Jaakobou includes it in his "evidence" above. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I would go into more detail explaining each edit you've raised one by one, but a) I don't see why I should have to since they are all fairly obviously legitimate edits, and b) in any event you're undermining your own case every time you open your mouth here to slag me or other editors off. So I'll just leave you to get on with that. Enjoy --Nickhh (talk) 15:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe this comment to be in violation of the Decorum principals, specifically it is a user directed personal attack. Regardless, I my complaint was for being followed around and point making. Jaakobou 16:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nickhh, Why are you still persisting to follow me, now to a 5th article you never touched before, despite the AE submission? (See: Nickhh User Contributions-List of Israeli assassinations)

• Using the talk page instead of the article page might feel right.

• However, when accompanied by tendentiousness it seems like continuation of following after to other multiple articles with activity meant for causing annoyance or distress.:

"Israel engages in this sort of activity is because it's a vicious, terrorist state" - Nickhh, 18:06, 13 February 2008.

-- Jaakobou 20:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Do not quote what I said out of context. Unless you are very stupid, you know exactly the point I was trying to make there. --Nickhh (talk) 21:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and for your benefit and the benefit of anyone else who's interested, here is a direct (and complete) quote from the WP:STALK policy that you've rather simplistically accused me of breaching (emphasis added).

Wikistalking refers to the act of following an editor to another article to continue disruption.

The term "wiki-stalking" has been coined to describe following a contributor around the wiki, editing the same articles as the target, with the intent of causing annoyance or distress to another contributor.

Reading another user's contribution log is not in itself harassment; those logs are public for good reason. In particular, proper use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles (in fact, such practices are recommended both for Recent changes patrol and WikiProject Spam). The important part is the disruption — disruption is considered harmful. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter.

The only thing you have even the slightest grounds for even being mildly concerned about is the edit summary on Saeb Erekat (the content of the edit itself is easily justified), which I self reverted within one minute. Thanks. --Nickhh (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

For starters, I don't believe your attack on my country was a great contribution and I was offended by it. And secondly, you clearly followed me to yet another article you never edited before, despite the AE notice being opened. Jaakobou 22:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

p.s. using "Unless you are very stupid" in your comments is something you should at least try to avoid. Jaakobou 22:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

offtopic

Yes, and we know that my name was only mentioned in the case because you felt moved to attempt to discredit my evidence regarding your long-term POV pushing. If someone finds a POV pusher, they are fully entitled to go and correct them wherever they have edited. With regards to the Tomb of Samuel, why did you bother including it in the evidence above if you don't want to mention it? пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I changed my earlier comment, and disagree with "the reason" your name got involved. From my perspective, it got involved since you wanted me banned from Middle East articles.

• "I would suggest a Middle East politics topic ban. пﮟოьεԻ 57 19:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)".

Please don't comment in the future on complaints I post on other editors, since you're not a neutral editor.

-- Jaakobou 15:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not a neutral editor? Extremely rich coming from the biggest POV pusher around (which is why I want you banned from Middle East articles). I'd be interested to know what my supposed POV is - am I pro- or anti-Israel? пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

And don't move my comments away from the discussion next time. пﮟოьεԻ 57 16:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Your position on Israeli matters is unrelated to the note that you are non neutral when I'm involved. I figured you'd understand the conflict of interests and stay away from making user directed insults. Jaakobou 16:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

JustaHulk (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

No action taken here. Complaint archived without response at WP:AN/I. I will make a comment to both users, but not as action here.

• Note: -- Relevant Arbitration case = Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS, due to Arbitration ruling of article probation on topic, Scientology.

1. Warning given to JustaHulk (talk · contribs) on WP:ANI by Jehochman (talk · contribs).
2. Harassment on Wikinews
3. AFTER the warning notice by Jehochman, JustaHulk posts again - to talk page of Jimbo Wales (talk · contribs). JustaHulk calls the subject heading: "Wikinews is a crack whore".
4. Twice calls me a "propagandist"
5. JustaHulk claims to Jehochman that he is done with his inflammatory actions, admits he reneged on Jehochman's warning
6. Justanother notes that his own comment to Thatcher was trolling
7. That then gets reverted by Thatcher
8. JustaHulk creates an attack page (That page was deleted by Jehochman (talk · contribs) with the comment: "Appears to be an attack page with no encyclopedic purpose." )
9. Again making disruptive comments at talk page of Jimbo Wales

Durova (talk · contribs) comments at talk page of Jimbo Wales: JustaHulk, twice now you've proposed that Cirt is a "paid propagandist". Do you have anything more than an edit count to support that very serious accusation?

More recently, JustaHulk (talk · contribs) has posted an "announcement" at both the userpage for User:JustaHulk, and the userpage for User:Justanother, where he says: I found myself objecting strongly to a prolific propagandist successfully embedding him/herself in this project and at WikiNews where s/he found some willing cohorts and little moderating influence. -- Again, though not directly mentioning a particular user, this use of this language "prolific propagandist", again, is a blatant violation of WP:NPA.

1. "prolifict propagandist" inflammatory wording at userpage for Justanother
2. "prolifict propagandist" inflammatory wording at userpage for JustaHulk
3. He calls attention to his "announcement" at the talk page for Jimbo Wales

This user does not seem to be able to stop, even after comments from Administrators of both Misplaced Pages and Wikinews, and a recent warning from Jehochman (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 20:13, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• I note the following:
  1. Behavior at Wikinews is outside the scope of Misplaced Pages enforcement. Some users who are successful elsewhere have become unwelcome here, and some users unwelcome elsewhere are successful here.
  2. None of the diffs are to articles, or even to article talk pages.
  3. Justahulk/Justanother is urged to avoid Shutterbug/COFS in the arbitration and warning.
  4. So far as I can tell, Cirt does not discluse that he is the same editor as COFS/Shutterbug. Nor does he disclose that he is Makoshack and Misou, who are to be treated as if they were COFS.
• Based on this, I think there is no case for arbitration enforcement alleged here, and no arbitration enforcement should occur. Both editors should probably be advised to behave civilly toward one another, but not as arbitration enforcement. GRBerry 20:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Response

I noted the following here, because the actions of JustaHulk (talk · contribs), as Justanother (talk · contribs), have been heavily discussed in the above arbitration case. If this is not the proper location, I will repose this to WP:ANI. Cirt (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

With regard to the comment by GRBerry (talk · contribs) re: behavior at Wikinews - yes, I agree that behavior on a different sister project may not be part of the scope of Misplaced Pages enforcement. But disruption by JustaHulk (talk · contribs), constantly posting inflammatory disruptive remarks about behavior on a different project - is within the scope of Misplaced Pages enforcement. For example, this, and more recently, this.Cirt (talk) 21:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I note that although the arbitration remedy doesn't specifically restrict Justanother/Justahulk, it does have a provision concerning "Harassment of User:Justanother by User:Anynobody" which states: "Anynobody has since at least March 2007 complained to and of Justanother with great frequency and persistence, and sometimes without relevance to mainspace editing, on WP:ANI, a variety of user talkpages, WP:RFA, and other fora, some of them clearly not intended for such use." This strikes me as quite relevant to the situation that Cirt describes. I would suggest that this remedy be widened to prohibit the harassment of any editor involved in this subject area by any other editor involved in the same subject area. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Note: Due to the comment by GRBerry (talk · contribs), above, I have posted this notice to WP:ANI. Cirt (talk) 21:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• JustaHulk appears to have given up editing on Wikinews after it became painfully apparent he has a conflict of interest on Scientology. He has not shown sufficient maturity to be asked to give a pro-Scientology point of view and avoid whitewashing articles or interviews where he could otherwise inject a degree of balance. Instead he resorts to denigrating the project here on Misplaced Pages by trolling Jimmy Wales' talk page and generally "being a dick". I would welcome some pro-scientology questions for our upcoming interviews with CoS critics, but if they're all as crazy as JustaHulk it is a waste of time. I'm better off trying to formulate pro-CoS questions myself, and I don't think highly of the organisation. He tried to tell us that we were producing inappropriate coverage of the takedown of the CoS website, but as it turns out we were first to cover something that turned into real-world protests with 8-10K people globally protesting the church on Lisa McPherson's birthday. Wikinews doesn't have any enemies (apart from WoW) but if we maintained a shit list JustaHulk would be on it for attacking contributors and questioning their integrity. --Brian McNeil / 23:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist (talk · contribs)

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Block for 96 hours is being issued. On February 7th SA was warned against some of the language used, and upon completing my investigation, I fund that he both assumed bad faith and was incivil. Apologies to all for my delay in returning to this. GRBerry 20:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

SA is currently under a one-year editing restriction and faces immediate block for incivility or assumption of bad faith as per this ArbCom ruling.

This message left on my talk page constitutes incivility and an assumption of bad faith in regards to this comment, which he reverted with an equally uncivil edit summary.

I ask that the terms of the ArbCom ruling be enforced. Ronnotel (talk) 18:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Ronnotel is being a disruptive editor by trying to get me censured for pointing out his inappropriate actions at a mediation page. This is fairly tendentious. As the guideline clearly states, POV-pushing should be discussed at user talkpages. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

My actions were neither disruptive nor inappropriate. I removed a description that is not supported by the cited source and removed references to sources that SA himself labeled as fringe. My edit summary clearly describes my action and my reason. While I had not commented in the thread out of a desire to maintain some distance, I had been following it closely and contributed as I felt appropriate. However, none of this excuses SA's actions nor his obligation under the ArbCom ruling. SA's description of me as POV Pushing is unsupported by the evidence and a blatant violation of WP:AGF. In the same policy cited by SA above is the statement calling someone a "POV-pusher" is always uncivil and hence a violation of his editing restriction. Ronnotel (talk) 19:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I never called you a POV-pusher. I think you should consider carefully what you are saying here. Your shrillness in attacking me defies understanding. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• This is occurring on the talk page of a request for mediation. Does the mediator consider the conduct to be disrupting the mediation? I'm going to ask for their input. GRBerry 20:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• With respect, the assumption of bad faith and incivility occurred on my talk page, not just the mediation page. And in any case, the ArbCom ruling pertains to incivility and failing to assume good faith without regard to where it may have occurred. I have no objection to conferring with the mediator, but I ask that the merits of this complaint be judged against the standard set by the ArbCom ruling, which is what was used to prepare it. Ronnotel (talk) 20:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

SA's comment was well within the usual limit of discourse on Misplaced Pages. Trying to get a valuable editor banned on what is at best a technicality is unproductive and petty. I assume that you are not a Princess to suffer severely from this pea. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. I don't accuse others of POV Pushing and I resent being so labeled. Countless other editors have suffered under this type of behavior from SA and ArbCom, finally, took action to prevent him from being a disruptive force. That he chose to yet again violate this restriction (he has already been blocked twice under it) demonstrates his regard for maintaining a civil and productive environment. Either ArbCom rulings mean something or they don't. Ronnotel (talk) 20:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

As mediator, I will agree with Ronnotel's points. There was much discussion above that went on for several weeks, where I allowed every editor that was involved with Cold Fusion to state their points and comment upon my recommendations or notes. As it stands now, the time for extensive comments is over and we have moved onto the editing stages -- taking apart, section by section, Cold Fusion in an attempt to create a neutral and balanced article. Right now, we are working on the lead.

It was fairly smooth sailing, and I made a note that anyone involved can edit the text to their liking, in respect to the comments that I had left above (with respect to outside considerations), but now it seems that it has devolved into another edit war -- which mediation was supposed to solve.

I am asking that both "ScienceApologist" and "Pcarbonn" please recuse themselves from editing any further on the lead until I can make a more valid inspection, and see if any points stand. As is, edit warring is entirely useless and counterproductive, and leads us back to where we were at start. I will note that the edit summaries used by "ScienceApologist" in the mediation and elsewhere shows that he is either not assuming good faith or hasn't grasped how to use correct edit summaries -- and by the looks of it, I will take the former over the latter. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

• You are asking whether the conduct of Ronnotel has been disruptive. It certainly wasn't: it was his only edit in weeks, he clearly explained his reason in the edit summary, and these reasons were already given in details by others in the corresponding discussion on the talk page. POV-pushing is defined as "the aggressive promotion of a particular point of view": this certainly does not apply to Ronnotel's edit. Pcarbonn (talk) 20:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

We have a guideline for disruptive editing. Engaging in discussion through edit summaries is fairly confrontational. In the context of this contentious matter, I consider it disruptive. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Placing a comment in an edit summary instead of in-line with the discussion is hardly disruptive and nowhere in the guideline you cite does it remotely say such a thing. Ronnotel (talk) 22:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I would like to voice strong support for Ronnotel's complaint. SA has treated his civility restriction with impunity, spoken out frequently on his disdain for Misplaced Pages's civility policies, and has repeatedly attacked me and others in the general form of "I'm sorry you are ignorant of (insert subject here)", and various other uncivil remarks. My situation was similar, a source SA cited did not support his edits, and when this was pointed out and demonstrated SA responded by attacking, having the effect of drawing attention to the editor and away from the edits. Leave a message or drop me an email if any diffs are needed. WNDL42 (talk) 02:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)